That's sort of where I was headed with RW. I considered a 1-of Odric in there. Menace or Flying to the team would be great, but he's probably too cute. Also considered a Nahiri somewhere, maybe the aforementioned Secure the Wastes. I would love to somehow stick an Always Watching, but I think the land just sucks, right?
Not sure on the spells suite--maybe Fodder should just be another 2-drop like Kessig Forgemaster?
My logic is that Avacyn just seems nuts with a pressuring red board. They HAVE to kill our creatures which means she's probably going to flip.
Not sure on the Transgress. Been a while since I splashed nlack so i'm sure there's a better spell there.
Discarding something to Olivia to get a burly Thunderbreak is too tempting. most of the things we flip to Prodder could be bought back with Command or flashed back with Dwellers.
I'm sure my general numbers/amounts can be improved.
Regarding that RW list above - there are nowhere near enough white sources to drop Avacyn on T6. 12-16 is what is optimal, according to Frank Karsten's Magic Math article on how many sources are needed to cast spells... Pre-rotation, most Atarka Red decks were running 10-12 fetches along with Cinder Glades and a Forest, and that was for a card that needed one green mana. Needing WW makes the numbers higher, and I don't think that 8 is enough.
Talking of Frank, he's got a new article up on CFB today, with the first section looking at how much damage can reasonably be expected from Sin Prodder. Based on a fairly aggressive curve, he works out that the average revealed cost of a card is 1.17, and concludes that flip Chandra is a better use of that slot. I'm still planning on running Proddy McProdface for the first few weeks, but I'm shifting back to not expecting it to work as well as I want.
Talking of Frank, he's got a new article up on CFB today, with the first section looking at how much damage can reasonably be expected from Sin Prodder. Based on a fairly aggressive curve, he works out that the average revealed cost of a card is 1.17, and concludes that flip Chandra is a better use of that slot. I'm still planning on running Proddy McProdface for the first few weeks, but I'm shifting back to not expecting it to work as well as I want.
His math doesn't consider 3/2 menace. Whereas Chandra is just a 2/2.
Eh, they both ask for and die to the same removal. If not removed, with the same curve, Chandra will likely flip and do more damage in the next turn than Prodder over a few. I like the look of Prodder, but (without testing) I would believe Chandra to be generally better. Although
I think that his logic is that at 1 damage a turn from revealed cards for Proddy vs 2 a turn from +1 for Flippy, it's obvious that Chandra does more damage. But as Lugger says, it's not counting that 3 from menace as well. And that's why I'm still on the fence.
That said, I think that this is my starting list. I'm really wanting to try the madness/burn route (10 discard outlets), sending in hasty creatures when I can, and trying to flip Chandra as much as possible. I'm not sure whether to try 3/3 Youths and Proddy though.
Wish I would have recorded the results from my testing vs BW midrange. Main takeaway was that Ayli is annoying and that Kalitas is an immediate must kill.
Kalitas is a very powerful card, one of the cards i dread to see on the opposite side of the table.
I don't hate Insolent Neonate with aura buffs. Would Call of the Full Moon be decent there as well, Timeos? And obviously you're going for vampires but it could be rad with Village Messenger, too. My gut says you want 20 lands if Avacyn's Judgment's going to pull any weight but I've always been a scaredy cat about lands.
Infectious Bloodlust isn't bad with Neonate since you get both triggers using his effect, so replacing both cards. But I was also thinking of taking out either Bloodlust or Judgement in favor for Titan's Strength because it is bigger pump and the scry is nice. But 19 lands haven't hurt at all due to the low curve, when including madness and not actual CMC, of the deck.
I hadn't thought of sac'ing the neonate, good point.
@Ryog Yeah I'm on the Avacyn train as well. Post a build when you toss one together, I put an idea up a bit earlier but it didn't get much of a response lol
Top 5 Red Cards
Insolent Neonate
Falkenrath Gorger
Avacyn’s Judgment
Lightning Axe
Fiery Temper
this is troubling, though:
Red didn’t get any slam dunks this time around, and I’m not optimistic about the chances of the mono-red aggro deck. Could we be living in a world without mono-red beatdown? That hasn’t been true a long time, but might be now.
Red didn’t get any slam dunks this time around, and I’m not optimistic about the chances of the mono-red aggro deck. Could we be living in a world without mono-red beatdown? That hasn’t been true a long time, but might be now.
Red didn’t get any slam dunks this time around, and I’m not optimistic about the chances of the mono-red aggro deck. Could we be living in a world without mono-red beatdown? That hasn’t been true a long time, but might be now.
i sure hope not.
This too is my fear.
I'd say one of the big threats to mono red right now is that Westvale Abbey-Tokens is so popular that people might start mainboarding mini-wraths, which would completely hose R/x aggro.
Might be able to make a transformational R/x aggro deck that wins G1 handily and transitions into a Midrangey, 3+ toughness style build to dodge Kozilek's Return, Radiant Flames, Chandra, Flamecaller, Biting Rain, Flaying Tendrils, et al. R/colorless seems like it could be pretty good achieving such a plan as it can move into Thunderbreak Regent, Thought-Knot Seer and Reality Smasher, which are very hard to beat without significant sideboarding plans. They get lower to the ground: you get bigger and go over the top.
Another suggestion for the sideboard is Consuming Sinkhole, which can hit Westvale Abbey OR act as a 4dmg burn to the dome OR hit Walkers.
A cool trick with Devour in Flames is to float the mana to cast it, pick up a tapped land, and then replay that land in the same turn, which effectively makes it a 2cmc spell. Yes, it hurts your attempt to curve out properly, but in an aggro red shell, you probably aren't counting on hitting your 4/5th land anyways...
Putting this together to start the season off, Haven't decided on a SB yet, I'll likely throw a handful of misc cards together (specialized removal, threaten and falter effects) in a pile and tool it to my specific meta, I'm expecting Goldnight Castigator to very quickly become a 3-4 of in my SB though for the non-agro matchups because she looks good(and I'm too chicken to play her in an aggro matchup until she proves herself to me). Along with Scab-Clan Berserker for control for sure (have to find them still though).
Lastly, I'm testing Westvale Abbey the drawback on flipping it is probably too much however I really like the idea, of removing ground clutter by simply replacing the ground with a 9/7 Flying, Lifelink Beater, which is probably enough to end the game on turn 6 if they stalled it out and don't know its coming. Not to mention the ability to stall the mirror and make a huge life swing. (May need to consider The Nalar's and Dragon Fodder to really make this work though)
One of the troubles I see with R/X right now is that we have cards that pull in very different directions.
Bushwhacker and Chandra want us to play multiple spells a turn, but Messenger and Call to the Moon don't want us to play more than 1 spell a turn.
Fiery Temper wants a Madness synergy, but Draconic Roar wants a dragon synergy.
Fodder, Bushwhacker, and Atarka's Command want to go wide, but Madness, Werewolves, or Thunderbreak don't really compliment that plan.
Each strategy on its own feels like it's just missing a key piece or two.
Tokens seems the best in a vacuum, but the burn spells don't matchup well for the meta. Madness has the best spells, but the worst creatures. Thunderbreak seems like it's missing the most from its strategy, given we lost Flamewake.
At any rate, I suppose we'll find out soon enough.
Was reading a post on Reddit. Evidently this is the first time in all of standard history that we have not had either a Shock, Lightning Strike, or Lightning Bolt equivalent.
Possibly Bushwhacker/Trumpet blast is redundant. There is of course, Fiery Impulse and Titan's Strength. Kind of leaning towards 4 TS just because it's CMC 1 and you can get zurgo through a sylvan advocate.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
4 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Abbot of Keral Keep
4 Sin Prodder
4 Thunderbreak Regent
2 Avacyn, Metal-as-****
3 Declaration in Stone
4 Fiery Impulse
4 Dragon Fodder
4 battlefield Forge
2 Plains
That's sort of where I was headed with RW. I considered a 1-of Odric in there. Menace or Flying to the team would be great, but he's probably too cute. Also considered a Nahiri somewhere, maybe the aforementioned Secure the Wastes. I would love to somehow stick an Always Watching, but I think the land just sucks, right?
Not sure on the spells suite--maybe Fodder should just be another 2-drop like Kessig Forgemaster?
My logic is that Avacyn just seems nuts with a pressuring red board. They HAVE to kill our creatures which means she's probably going to flip.
4 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Abbot of Keral keep
4 Dragon Whisperer
3 Olivia, Mobilized for War
1 Sin Prodder
4 Thunderbreak Regent
2 Goblin Dark Dwellers
3 Ultimate Price
3 Kolaghan's Command
2 Transgress the Mind
4 Foreboding Ruins
4 Smoldering Marsh
2 Swamp
13 Mountain
Not sure on the Transgress. Been a while since I splashed nlack so i'm sure there's a better spell there.
Discarding something to Olivia to get a burly Thunderbreak is too tempting. most of the things we flip to Prodder could be bought back with Command or flashed back with Dwellers.
I'm sure my general numbers/amounts can be improved.
Talking of Frank, he's got a new article up on CFB today, with the first section looking at how much damage can reasonably be expected from Sin Prodder. Based on a fairly aggressive curve, he works out that the average revealed cost of a card is 1.17, and concludes that flip Chandra is a better use of that slot. I'm still planning on running Proddy McProdface for the first few weeks, but I'm shifting back to not expecting it to work as well as I want.
His math doesn't consider 3/2 menace. Whereas Chandra is just a 2/2.
R Reach out and torch someone R
Find me on MTGO under the same username
Both could be alright, curve allowing.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
That said, I think that this is my starting list. I'm really wanting to try the madness/burn route (10 discard outlets), sending in hasty creatures when I can, and trying to flip Chandra as much as possible. I'm not sure whether to try 3/3 Youths and Proddy though.
1 Lightning Berserker
3 Zurgo Bellstriker
4 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Ravenous Bloodseeker
2 Sin Prodder
3 Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh
4 Incorrigible Youths
4 Skin Invasion
4 Fiery Temper
4 Lightning Axe
2 Tormenting Voice
4 Exquisite Firecraft
19 Mountains
2 Looming Spires
Part of me wants to try a slightly less interactive deck, just for amusement and not being overly competitive at all (which really isn't like me!).
22 Mountain
Creatures (11)
4 Sin Prodder
3 Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh
4 Thunderbreak Regent
4 Lightning Axe
4 Draconic Roar
2 Vessel of Volatility
4 Fiery Temper
4 Exquisite Firecraft
4 Touch of the Void
3 Lightning Javelin
2 Sarkhan's Rage
Kalitas is a very powerful card, one of the cards i dread to see on the opposite side of the table.
well, this sucks. it seems that SOI's release will be delayed in my country, so i may not be able to playtest as scheduled.
i am in the process of confirming with an owner of an LGS if that's true.
4x Falkenrath Gorger
4x Incorrigible Youths
4x Insolent Neonate
4x Ravenous Bloodseeker
3x Sin Prodder
4x Voldaren Duelist
19x Mountain
Instant (8)
4x Fiery Temper
4x Lightning Axe
Sorcery (4)
2x Avacyn's Judgment
2x Tormenting Voice
Enchantment (6)
4x Infectious Bloodlust
2x Stensia Masquerade
2x Boiling Earth
2x Crumble to Dust
2x Goldnight Castigator
2x Malevolent Whispers
2x Rending Volley
2x Roast
3x Skin Invasion
Online the deck to beat really has been looking like Black White with Kalitas and Avacyn.
RGWNaya BurnRGW+++RGWKiki ComboRGW
UGInfectUG+++++++++.++++++++UGMerfolkUG
GGNykthos WaveGG++++++++++GGStompyGG
BRVampiresBR+++++++.+++++++BRGoblinsBR
WGBogglesWG+++++++++++++CRSkred RedCR
UBRGDredgeUBRG++++++++++BB8 RackBB
URWJeskaiURW+++.++UBRGrixis DelverUBR
URStormUR++++++++UWGBant CompanyUWG
WUBRGHumansWUBRG+CCEldrazi TronCC
@Ryog Yeah I'm on the Avacyn train as well. Post a build when you toss one together, I put an idea up a bit earlier but it didn't get much of a response lol
this is troubling, though:
i sure hope not.
2 Lightning Berserker
2 Zurgo Bellstriker
4 Village Messenger
4 Falkenrath gorger
4 Abbott of Keral keep
4 Sin Prodder
4 Goldnight Castigator
3 Call of the Full Moon
4 Fiery Impulse
2 Exquisite Firecraft
22 Mountains
3 Skin invasion
3 Thunderbrek Regent
3 Roast
3 Tears of Valakut
3 Dual Shot
C Long Live Eldrazi C
I'd say one of the big threats to mono red right now is that Westvale Abbey-Tokens is so popular that people might start mainboarding mini-wraths, which would completely hose R/x aggro.
Might be able to make a transformational R/x aggro deck that wins G1 handily and transitions into a Midrangey, 3+ toughness style build to dodge Kozilek's Return, Radiant Flames, Chandra, Flamecaller, Biting Rain, Flaying Tendrils, et al. R/colorless seems like it could be pretty good achieving such a plan as it can move into Thunderbreak Regent, Thought-Knot Seer and Reality Smasher, which are very hard to beat without significant sideboarding plans. They get lower to the ground: you get bigger and go over the top.
Another suggestion for the sideboard is Consuming Sinkhole, which can hit Westvale Abbey OR act as a 4dmg burn to the dome OR hit Walkers.
A cool trick with Devour in Flames is to float the mana to cast it, pick up a tapped land, and then replay that land in the same turn, which effectively makes it a 2cmc spell. Yes, it hurts your attempt to curve out properly, but in an aggro red shell, you probably aren't counting on hitting your 4/5th land anyways...
EDH: UBRJeleva | GURSurrak
I really like Sin Prodder not sure how to squeeze him in though. Fiery Temper, Incorrigible Youths, and Falkenrath Gorger's ability should provide enough madness for the drawback on Lighning axe to make it playable as one of our better removal options. Thoughts?
Lastly, I'm testing Westvale Abbey the drawback on flipping it is probably too much however I really like the idea, of removing ground clutter by simply replacing the ground with a 9/7 Flying, Lifelink Beater, which is probably enough to end the game on turn 6 if they stalled it out and don't know its coming. Not to mention the ability to stall the mirror and make a huge life swing. (May need to consider The Nalar's and Dragon Fodder to really make this work though)
4 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Abbott of Keral Keep
4 Ravenous Bloodseeker
3 Incorrigible Youths
4 Reckless Bushwacker
4 Thunderbreak Regent
3 Lightning Axe
4 Fiery Temper
20 Mountains
2 Westvale Abbey
Bushwhacker and Chandra want us to play multiple spells a turn, but Messenger and Call to the Moon don't want us to play more than 1 spell a turn.
Fiery Temper wants a Madness synergy, but Draconic Roar wants a dragon synergy.
Fodder, Bushwhacker, and Atarka's Command want to go wide, but Madness, Werewolves, or Thunderbreak don't really compliment that plan.
Each strategy on its own feels like it's just missing a key piece or two.
Tokens seems the best in a vacuum, but the burn spells don't matchup well for the meta. Madness has the best spells, but the worst creatures. Thunderbreak seems like it's missing the most from its strategy, given we lost Flamewake.
At any rate, I suppose we'll find out soon enough.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Truely dark times for Red.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
4 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Zurgo Bellstriker
4 Goblin Glory Chaser
4 Abbot of Keral Keep
4 Dragon Whisperer
4 Scourge Wolf
4 Fiery Temper
4 Reckless Bushwhacker
3 Trumpet Blast
2 Magmatic Chasm
19 Mountain
Possibly Bushwhacker/Trumpet blast is redundant. There is of course, Fiery Impulse and Titan's Strength. Kind of leaning towards 4 TS just because it's CMC 1 and you can get zurgo through a sylvan advocate.
I'd play Dragon Fodder over Scourge Wolf also.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)