"Of course you should fight fire with fire.
You should fight everything with fire."
- Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
About RDW
The goal of red deck wins is to kill your opponent before they start playing magic. The deck plays a lot of cheap aggressive creatures and backs them up with efficiently costed burn spells to burn the opponent out once they begin to stablize. Red Deck Wins, Sligh, Burn, are all decks that have existed in various forms since the beginning of Magic. The strategy is a manifestation of Red's color philosophy.
Sample Decklists
Atarka Tokens
Token heavy approach with Atarka's Command and Hanweir Garrison, backed up with a lot of burn.
Zurgo, Gorger, and Berserker are the best 1-drops in RDW currently. Most decks should be playing between 9-11 of these creatures. Messenger and Chaser are also options for a deck that wants to go even lower. Neonate and Invasion are two new Shadows cards that could have potential.
The 2 drop slot is almost always going include 4 Abbot to start. This is one of RDW's best cards. It allows us to dig for lands early, and get extra value late. Dragon Fodder is a solid card for anyone going the Tokens route. There are some other solid options in this CMC otherwise.
Bushwhacker is great in tokens. Garrison and Chandra are also quite solid picks. Sin Prodder might be good in a big red style build. Berserker is often a good sideboard option vs Control. Breakneck seems like an excellent budget card.
Many decks do not include any 4-drops, but it is not uncommon to see aggressive red strategies pick 1 key card to top their curve. Regent is excellent 4 drop which opens up access to Draconic Roar. Pia and Kiran is a solid choice for tokens. Goldnight Castigator is a high risk, high reward finisher.
Generally you will not see 5-drops in contemporary RDW builds. However, some larger Big Red aggressive strategies might want some number of high power finishers. Mirrorwing is the newest option, which pairs well with Thunderbreak. Dark-Dwellers gives good value for a deck with a decent number of good spell targets. Bedlam Reveler seems ideally suited to a spell heavy burn deck, or in the sideboard as an option for grindy matchups.
Red Aggro generally wants proactive and efficient burn spells. This means spells that can hit both creatures and players. Early game, our burn spells serve to remove blockers to allow our smaller creatures to get through. Mid/late game, they serve as a form of "reach" to burn our opponent to zero life over the heads of any board based defences. In some metas where there are fewer efficient direct damage spells available, we might have to make some concessions and run some number of creature only interactive spells. But either way, efficiency is always key.
The most obvious splash for RDW. Atarka's Command is a modern staple in Burn lists, and it shows its power in Standard in conjunction with Token focused decks. Nissa is also a powerful option in this style of deck.
Splashing black generally pushes the deck towards a madness and/or vampire tribal theme. There are some powerful options in this color, but it changes the build of the deck fundamentally.
This splash tends to focus on evasion and card velocity to enable combos with Prowess and Thing in the Ice. Jori En seems to be an interesting option to reload on cards.
So far a splash that hasn't seen a lot of interest. Needle Spires is the main draw to this color, though Declaration in Stone makes the splash a lot more interesting. The issue mainly being that adding White involves running tapped lands.
Other Options: N/A
Colorless
Sea Gate Wreckage in particular is an interesting option to splash colorless for to give the deck more staying power. Eldrazi Obligator is also an appealing reason to splash colorless.
Some matchups will require us to modify our burn suite to answer specific threats or strategies. Furthermore, it is not uncommon for RDW to assume the control role against other more aggressive decks.
These are spells that allow us to tempo out our opponent in the mid game. Often by making it impossible to block, or by taking their big creature and using it against them for a turn. These spells tend to be very timing and matchup dependant.
These are generally brought in only for specific matchups and have limited flexibility. The idea is to only allocate slots to these cards if there is a strategy in prevalent the meta that is otherwise unbeatable.
Other Options: TBA
Matchups / Sideboarding
Note: Sideboarding is going to be approached as though we are playing the current "stock" list, or the most successful version of the deck thus far. Currently, it appears that Atarka Red is the best build for RDW in SOI.
Wx Humans
This deck plays an aggro game with lots of 1 and 2 drops and uses Human synergies to maximize Thalia's Lieutenant.
Strategy:
Control. They tend to trump us on the ground once they get a Lieutenant trigger. I think the strategy here is to be the control deck, as we will have access to more efficient removal. Siding out cards that are primarily aggressive and bad from behind is the game plan.
Sideboard Cards:
Rending Volley: One of the better options. This kills almost everything the deck plays and at instant speed. It can take out an Avacyn in a pinch.
Dual Shot/Twin Volley/Avacyn's Judgement: Spells that deal one damage to two creatures are fairly good against this deck, since it plays a high quantity of X/1 creatures. The main thing is to cast this before they deploy a Thalia's Lieutenant.
Tears of Valakut/Clip Wings: Some versions run Archangel of Tithes at their top end (and sometimes Avacyn in the Board). This is a very difficult card to deal with, and so it might be necessary to board in flying specific kill spells.
Devour in Flames: Some versions also run Gideon. This spell has a lot of versatility, as it can hit any of their creatures as well as kill Gideon.
Matchup: Bad
BW Midrange
There are a few versions of the deck right now. Spanning aggressive midrange to control to Eldrazi versions. Generally all versions include 2-4 Avacyn and 1-2 Sorin. Most versions also use Gideon. Midrange versions might also play Ayli, Knight of the White Orchid, and Kalitas. The Eldrazi build runs Thought-Knot, Smasher, and Displacer. All versions have a lot of powerful removal and discard and run a set of Shambling Vents. The deck tends to be a bit slower, but packs a lot of power.
Strategy:
Beatdown. We have to keep ahead of their removal. This can be tough, as some versions run stuff like Wasteland Strangler which allows them to catchup. Going wide against them is generally good as this makes their spot removal worse. Make sure that you keep an instant speed 3-damage spell in the deck, as killing Shambling Vents is important. Some more control oriented versions run Languish, so keep that in mind when deploying threats.
Sideboard Cards:
Scab-Clan Berserker: I like Berserker in matchups with heavy removal. If we can get a window to attack through with Berserker, it can make stablizing a lot harder. If they remove Berserker immediately, we still get a trigger and have essentially paid 3 mana for 4 damage, which is fine in a beatdown scenario.
Devour in Flames: Siding in a card specifically to deal with Avacyn might be a mistake. We need to be the aggressive deck, and there are other threats like Gideon, Kalitas, and so forth that can be problematic for us if they stick. I think its better to side in more versatile removal in this matchup and not load up too much on narrow answers.
Matchup: Even
UBx Control
Currently Esper Dragons claims the best option for this style of deck. It is heavy on removal, counter spells, and runs Dragonlord Ojutai as it's main win condition.
Strategy:
Beatdown. This matchup should be fairly straight forward. We need to kill them quickly. The main thing is to pace threats to protect against Languish, but to keep the initiative.
Sideboard Cards:
Rending Volley: This is an excellent card to bring in over Fiery Impulse. It is important for us to kill their early Jaces. Having a spell that does that as well as kills and attacking Ojutai, and cannot be countered to boot, is pretty good.
Scab-Clan Berserker: Simlar with B/W Midrange. The card is solid in control matchups. Against UBx it should be fairly easy to find a window to get through. Main thing is to hopefully get them to tap out first.
Matchup: Good
GWx Company
This deck plays a lot of solid Green creatures like Sylvan Advocate, Deathmist Raptor, Den Protector, and Tireless Tracker in combination with Collected Company. The deck tends to be much ligher on removal and interaction, instead using the card advantage of Den Protector and Collected company to trump other decks on the board.
Strategy:
Beatdown. This one is tough to slog through, but their end-game is certainly better than ours. Flying over with Thunderbreaks is less of an option, since these decks tend to run Avacyn at their top end. Going wide with a bit of Tempo is likely the best way to defeat them.
Sideboard Cards:
Magmatic Chasm: This might be the most important card in this matchup. Company decks of their nature have a quick ground game, and tend to clog up the board. Magma Chasm allows us to push through the last damage with a big Alpha Strike. Best paired up enabling Bushwhacker's surge.
Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh: GWx Company decks tend to play a lot fewer pieces of interaction. Declaration in Stone is their most common and sometimes only piece of removal. Bant versions might also have some number of counters like Negate in the side. This makes Chandra much better as you will likely be able to stick and flip her to go over the top of their ground game.
Matchup: Bad
Rx Eldrazi
This deck plays a heavy Thopter token game with Hangarback Walker, Thopter Engineer, and Pia & Kiran along side powerful threats like Thought-Know Seer and Smasher. Their top end is Chandra, Flamecaller. The deck is fundamentally aggressive, with a "Big Red" style of play.
Strategy:
Beatdown. Chandra is more or less a ticking time bomb. She will clear our board when she comes down and kill us very quickly if we do not have an immediate answer. This is a tough deck to aggro though, as they sport a lot of small Thopter generators.
Sideboard Cards:
Boiling Earth: Important to kill their Thopter Tokens and clear the way. Magmatic Chasm unfortunately does not help us get through, so we have to rely on killing the majority of their blockers.
Devour in Flames, Roast: Outside of Thopter tokens, the other big threats are Thought-Knot Seer and Reality Smasher. A means to kill each of these large bodies that otherwise brick wall us is also important.
Matchup: Bad
GRx Emrakul/Emerge
This deck is somewhat similar to a ramp deck. It aims ultimately to ramp into Emrakul. Some builds splash blue to give it access to powerful Emerge cards from Eldrich Moon. While their deck is generally slow, their main tool against aggressive decks is a good one: Kozelik's Return.
Strategy:
Beatdown. Kill them quickly, before they can start casting Emrakul. Killing their smaller creatures that are used to Emerge the larger threats out is decently effective. However, the most important thing is to pace threats and be prepared for Kozilek's Return to clear the board at instant speed during combat. Bushwhacker is an explosive way to recover form a Return. Holding back on a couple 1-drops or a Fodder and Bushwhacker can be a nice way to get back into the game. Playing threats like Garrison also helps, being naturally immune to the first half of Return. Atarka's Command can sometimes be strategically used to pump Zurgo and Abbot through a return. Sideboarding in Act of Treason style effects might also be effective, as their mid/late game threats tend to be large and hard hitting.
Sideboard Cards:
Act of Treason: The Dream (tm) is to steal Emrakul for a turn. Just make sure your Treason effect is a sorcery.
We've lose Hordeling Outburst and Swiftspear on rotation. Gorger does a pretty good job replacing the latter. And while we don't have a 3cmc token producer, Pia and Kiran are quite good, if a tad expensive.
What is the most exciting for me is Sin Prodder. Which seems like a mini-Outpost Siege that we can easily maindeck. Outpost Siege was one of our most powerful tools for going long, and I am eager to see how Sin Prodder performs.
Sideboard is fairly straight forward. Dual Shot replaces Arc Lightning for the aggro matchups. Scab-Clan replaces Siege for the control matchups. Roast and Rending Volley do their thing and Magmatic Chasm is a good finisher for the green Deathmist Raptor decks.
Devour is an experimental add. I think this card was overlooked in Oath. Going forward x/5 will still be a problem for us, but more and more those targets will have Flying. So, this may be the necessary card to deal with them. It has the added bonus of killing most planeswalkers straight up as well.
excellent write up, Nevelo! just the thing RDW players need to start brewing decks and beating people before they knew what hit them.
might Insolent Neonate also make the cut? it's an evasive creature so it may in some cases deal more damage than Zurgo or Gorger. then when it can no longer attack, one can sacrifice it for a card draw and enable Madness.
also, Molten Vortex may have a potential against W/x and G/x aggro decks that just clog the board with creatures, turning excess lands into burn.
i'll post 3 builds i am working on later. a mono R, Atarka Red, and Rakdos.
As others have said - great write up and review. Not going to be long before this is marked as "official", I think, because of the nicely packaged info at the start.
That said, I want to bring up another 1-drop that I think should be considered. Skin Invasion. Remember, this card does not have to be put on your opponent's creatures to remove them as blockers. It can go on your own, and I think that it's a good answer to the white weenie decks that Aoutp mentioned as being problematic. Imagine, they drop a T2 Knight or Lieutenant, which they are happy to attack in to your 1/1, 2/1 or even 2/2. However, drop Skin Invasion on your 1 drop, and block with it. First strike happens, creature dies, Bug becomes a 3/4. No more 2/2 first strike to worry about.
@Zhakad, I'm not sure Molten Vortex is what we want. Surely something like Sparkmage's Gambit or Act of Treason would be better cards here. I've used both to much success against the Abzan annoyance with my old deck. It may even be worth considering Magmatic Chasm in the side instead of Gambit - turns a board stall in to massive blowout.
Actually, just a random half dazed thought - could it be feasible to have a deck that is almost solely 1-drops? The only cards that aren't 1-drops in the list below are Tormenting Voices to enable madness for Fiery Temper, and 3 flippy Chandra, as it should be REALLY easy to flip her. 2 Expedite make it possible to flip her if she's dropped on a turn later in the game with open mana, and also for card draw if needed. However, these could easily be the 4th copies of Fiery Impulse and Skin Invasion, or a pair of Dual Shots. I just feel that the card draw would be pretty important as I'm guessing an empty hand will be pretty quick in coming up.
All good suggestions btw. Ive fixed the 'Thundermaw' list. I've added Neonate, Invasion, and Vortex to the card sections. Invasion was a tricky one to classify, so I just put it in 1-drops.
Once we start seeing some results I can update the sample builds and such and adjust the listings if needed. So if a new Shadows card ends up being good or bad (e.g. Sin Prodder) I can update accordingly.
@Zhakad, I'm not sure Molten Vortex is what we want. Surely something like Sparkmage's Gambit or Act of Treason would be better cards here. I've used both to much success against the Abzan annoyance with my old deck. It may even be worth considering Magmatic Chasm in the side instead of Gambit - turns a board stall in to massive blowout.
i have used nearly every card you mentioned and from experience i say they have potential post rotation.
my reasoning with Molten Vortex is that it's often correct to get rid of troublesome creatures permanently (or at least, send them to the graveyard) because some creatures nowadays generate more and more value the longer they stay out there in the field. it can be good vs slightly slower aggro decks, like W/x and G/x. of course i don't yet how fast or slow they will be post rotation, but at the very least i say Molten Vortex was great vs G/R Landfall when i used my Atarka Goblins. it could even be good vs U/x control.
Act of Treason i think remain a key SB card post rotation especially if Ramp decks are still people alive. could also be great vs reanimator (a very real possibility) and eldrazi.
Magmatic Chasm i would have used vs Rally, but there are no Rally players in my LGS. i could picture it being the SB card of choice (better than Sparkmage's Gambit i think) vs W/x and G/x decks should Molten Vortex be not good enough.
with the lack of cheap burn spells to the face (thanks, Wizards), i think we should go the tempo route.
the aim of the deck is to drop as many 2 power creatures as possible by turn 2 then remove the blockers with cheap removal. consider this scenario:
T1: cast Zurgo Bellstriker
T2: attack with Zurgo Bellstriker (2 damage, down to 18), cast Falkenrath Gorger and Lightning Berserker
T3: use Fiery Impulse on blocker, swing the team for 5 (opponent down to 13), drop another Falkenrath Gorger you just drew
T4: use Lightning Axe on blocker, trigger Surge, cast Reckless Bushwhacker, attack for 10 (opponent down to 3)
T5: cast Fiery Temper to the face for the win.
turn 5 kill is still well within the aggro deck's objective. of course, the scenario above is more or less the ideal one, can't expect the opponent not to interact, but that's the game plan overall.
same strategy as the smaller version, only this one has the ability to ignore Flaying Tendrils, Languish, Kozilek's Return with Goldnight Castigator, which can, if uncontested or unanswered, can quickly end games especially when cast consecutively on turn 4 and 5.
I like to start with a consistent turn 4 goldfish and then add interactive elements like Fiery Impulse until it stops being consistent. Do we even have a turn 4 goldfish though?
I think Call of the Full Moon deserves a look since we finally have enough 1-drops to play it consistently, and we need more 2-drops anyway. It's effectively a 3/2 trample haste with two substantial drawbacks. For one, you can't play 2 spells until your kill turn. For two, you get blown out by removal. But if you're playing Village Messenger you don't want to play 2 spells anyway.
I like to start with a consistent turn 4 goldfish and then add interactive elements like Fiery Impulse until it stops being consistent. Do we even have a turn 4 goldfish though?
T1: Zurgo Bellstriker
T2: Attack with Zurgo for 2 damage (down to 18), drop 2 Falkerath Gorger
T3: drop Lightning Berserker, trigger Surge, drop Reckless Bushwhacker, attack for 13 (down to 5)
T4: attack/burn finish
I highly recommend Kessig Forgemaster as a listed 2 drop. It is an effective blocker against Sylvan Advocate and once flipped will usually go unblocked. Its basically the same slot that gore-house chainwalker was during INN/RTR just has some different upsides and different downsides.
Also, thank you Nevelo for making the primer. Here is the deck I've been testing online to a good amount of success:
Thoughts: Originally I ran skin invasion main deck but its only good against another aggro deck. The idea is to enchant their creature and then use the removal you were going to use on it anyway to produce a 3/4 blocker that will help you stabalize in the early turns.
Tears of Valakut might be replaced with Rending Volley however those flying demons can do a lot of damage and they arent white or blue. Most of your flying threats are though. It's also good on the side if people start using Castigator as I have which brings me to my next point.
Goldnight Castigator is a skill card. It survives Languish or any other -4 trick which gives it supreme potential. Still dies to ultimate price and has to be burned for 5 damage to die. You only cast him if you are going to win on that turn or the turn after usually. There are other special circumstances. Usually you will have a clogged ground state making blocking a potential and the need for flying a must. I highly recommend using it and then taking it out on a mirror matchup and replacing with Thunderbreak Regent. On a lot of game 2s online I've added Thunderbreak in addition to Castigator as they will likely use ground stall tactics for game two such as Jaddi offshoot and will have a harder time with the reach of the flyers.
that's not consistent. That's the best possible draw. Can you do it without your only anthem effect appearing in your first 9 cards, or without 3 of your 7 2-power 1-drops appearing in your first 8 cards?
I've done some testing of W/x humans, both splash green and splash blue against Red aggro running a similar list to the one posted above and it has gone very poorly for the Red list. Dromoka's Command or Reflector mage or just a turn two 2/3 (t1 Inspector + t2 Thalia's Lt) seem to be major sticking points. Also consider how you are going to address t4 Archangel of Tithes. Good luck and may the red deck always win!
At least for my list it seems really light on the finishes by turn 4. It can be done but it relies on cards.
Sin Prodder and Goldnight Castigator have to be on the field swinging for 7 for a turn 4 finish from me. The other 7 points of damage can be made up in multiple ways such as a T1 Village messenger by herself if she flips and doesnt unflip on T2.
I guess it depends on the exact build, but getting a T4 win, or close enough, isn't too hard. A lot of combinations and I'm not even trying to think of the most impressive draws (just the normal sort).
This implies no interaction or blocking of course. I think the real test for the deck is the meta. From what I'm picking up though, Ayli and Advocate will be very common 2-drops for us to come up against. Add in a bunch of 3-drops, and I think we are going to come up against a lot of 2/3 or better fairly early. So being on the Draw will be tough. Impulse is kind of sad here, as we won't have Spellmastery that early. Roar is good, but To the Slaughter makes playing Thunderbreaks worse.
That isn't even talking about the 4-drops that just wreck us like Kalitas and Archangel of Tithes. Once they they get something like Avacyn out, I suppose it's nearly game over. Rending Volley helps a bit with the latter, but does nothing against the other two. Devour seems good, but is Socery speed. Axe is a consideration if the Discard isn't too bad.
I think RDW is solid. But I'm worried the meta is going to be harsh since our really bad Burn selection will have a hard time handling it.
I've done some testing of W/x humans, both splash green and splash blue against Red aggro running a similar list to the one posted above and it has gone very poorly for the Red list. Dromoka's Command or Reflector mage or just a turn two 2/3 (t1 Inspector + t2 Thalia's Lt) seem to be major sticking points. Also consider how you are going to address t4 Archangel of Tithes. Good luck and may the red deck always win!
ah so you've gone W/x after Jeskai life? i went RDW route.
This implies no interaction or blocking of course. I think the real test for the deck is the meta. From what I'm picking up though, Ayli and Advocate will be very common 2-drops for us to come up against. Add in a bunch of 3-drops, and I think we are going to come up against a lot of 2/3 or better fairly early. So being on the Draw will be tough. Impulse is kind of sad here, as we won't have Spellmastery that early. Roar is good, but To the Slaughter makes playing Thunderbreaks worse.
That isn't even talking about the 4-drops that just wreck us like Kalitas and Archangel of Tithes. Once they they get something like Avacyn out, I suppose it's nearly game over. Rending Volley helps a bit with the latter, but does nothing against the other two. Devour seems good, but is Socery speed. Axe is a consideration if the Discard isn't too bad.
I think RDW is solid. But I'm worried the meta is going to be harsh since our really bad Burn selection will have a hard time handling it.
What if they play both though? That's the thing. Prior meta we could side hard into Roast and it was mostly effective. Or side mostly into Rending Volley, or so on. And there is Shambling Vents, which wants instant speed. I suppose I've been playing against BW too much, but it just seems like an uphill battle and post sideboard almost feels worse.
What if the play both though? That's the thing. Prior meta we could side hard into Roast and it was mostly effective. Or side mostly into Rending Volley, or so on. And there is Shambling Vents, which wants instant speed. I suppose I've been playing against BW too much, but it just seems like an uphill battle and post sideboard almost feels worse.
Kalitas and Archangel of Tithes in the same deck? really hard to do. i don't expect to see them both in the same deck.
i am sorry, but i simply cannot not see why anyone would put Kalitas and Archangel of Tithes in the same deck. is there a decklist somewhere that has both?
That's it for now! Until the next update!
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
3 Zurgo Bellstriker
4 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Lightning Berserker
4 Abbot of Keral Keep
3 Reckless Bushwhacker
4 Sin Prodder
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
3 Titan's Strength
4 Fiery Impulse
4 Dragon Fodder
4 Exquisite Firecraft
Lands (21)
21 Mountain
3 Dual Shot
3 Rending Volley
1 Magmatic Chasm
3 Roast
2 Devour in Flames
3 Scab-Clan Berserker
We've lose Hordeling Outburst and Swiftspear on rotation. Gorger does a pretty good job replacing the latter. And while we don't have a 3cmc token producer, Pia and Kiran are quite good, if a tad expensive.
What is the most exciting for me is Sin Prodder. Which seems like a mini-Outpost Siege that we can easily maindeck. Outpost Siege was one of our most powerful tools for going long, and I am eager to see how Sin Prodder performs.
Sideboard is fairly straight forward. Dual Shot replaces Arc Lightning for the aggro matchups. Scab-Clan replaces Siege for the control matchups. Roast and Rending Volley do their thing and Magmatic Chasm is a good finisher for the green Deathmist Raptor decks.
Devour is an experimental add. I think this card was overlooked in Oath. Going forward x/5 will still be a problem for us, but more and more those targets will have Flying. So, this may be the necessary card to deal with them. It has the added bonus of killing most planeswalkers straight up as well.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Great thread as usual. I'll be keeping an eye out!
Standard: N G A W Y R A
Commander: G U B Damia
C Long Live Eldrazi C
might Insolent Neonate also make the cut? it's an evasive creature so it may in some cases deal more damage than Zurgo or Gorger. then when it can no longer attack, one can sacrifice it for a card draw and enable Madness.
also, Molten Vortex may have a potential against W/x and G/x aggro decks that just clog the board with creatures, turning excess lands into burn.
i'll post 3 builds i am working on later. a mono R, Atarka Red, and Rakdos.
That said, I want to bring up another 1-drop that I think should be considered. Skin Invasion. Remember, this card does not have to be put on your opponent's creatures to remove them as blockers. It can go on your own, and I think that it's a good answer to the white weenie decks that Aoutp mentioned as being problematic. Imagine, they drop a T2 Knight or Lieutenant, which they are happy to attack in to your 1/1, 2/1 or even 2/2. However, drop Skin Invasion on your 1 drop, and block with it. First strike happens, creature dies, Bug becomes a 3/4. No more 2/2 first strike to worry about.
@Zhakad, I'm not sure Molten Vortex is what we want. Surely something like Sparkmage's Gambit or Act of Treason would be better cards here. I've used both to much success against the Abzan annoyance with my old deck. It may even be worth considering Magmatic Chasm in the side instead of Gambit - turns a board stall in to massive blowout.
Actually, just a random half dazed thought - could it be feasible to have a deck that is almost solely 1-drops? The only cards that aren't 1-drops in the list below are Tormenting Voices to enable madness for Fiery Temper, and 3 flippy Chandra, as it should be REALLY easy to flip her. 2 Expedite make it possible to flip her if she's dropped on a turn later in the game with open mana, and also for card draw if needed. However, these could easily be the 4th copies of Fiery Impulse and Skin Invasion, or a pair of Dual Shots. I just feel that the card draw would be pretty important as I'm guessing an empty hand will be pretty quick in coming up.
19 Mountain
Creatures (17)
4 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Lightning Berserker
3 Village Messenger
3 Zurgo Bellstriker
3 Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh
2 Expedite
3 Fiery Impulse
4 Fiery Temper
4 Lightning Axe
3 Skin Invasion
4 Titan's Strength
4 Tormenting Voice
All good suggestions btw. Ive fixed the 'Thundermaw' list. I've added Neonate, Invasion, and Vortex to the card sections. Invasion was a tricky one to classify, so I just put it in 1-drops.
Once we start seeing some results I can update the sample builds and such and adjust the listings if needed. So if a new Shadows card ends up being good or bad (e.g. Sin Prodder) I can update accordingly.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
i have used nearly every card you mentioned and from experience i say they have potential post rotation.
my reasoning with Molten Vortex is that it's often correct to get rid of troublesome creatures permanently (or at least, send them to the graveyard) because some creatures nowadays generate more and more value the longer they stay out there in the field. it can be good vs slightly slower aggro decks, like W/x and G/x. of course i don't yet how fast or slow they will be post rotation, but at the very least i say Molten Vortex was great vs G/R Landfall when i used my Atarka Goblins. it could even be good vs U/x control.
Act of Treason i think remain a key SB card post rotation especially if Ramp decks are still people alive. could also be great vs reanimator (a very real possibility) and eldrazi.
Magmatic Chasm i would have used vs Rally, but there are no Rally players in my LGS. i could picture it being the SB card of choice (better than Sparkmage's Gambit i think) vs W/x and G/x decks should Molten Vortex be not good enough.
3 Zurgo Bellstriker
4 Falkenrath Gorger
2 Lightning Berserker
2 Insolent Neonate
4 Abbot of Keral Keep
4 Reckless Bushwhacker
4 Dragon Fodder
4 Fiery Temper
4 Lightning Axe
4 Exquisite Firecraft
4 Fiery Impulse
21 Mountain
with the lack of cheap burn spells to the face (thanks, Wizards), i think we should go the tempo route.
the aim of the deck is to drop as many 2 power creatures as possible by turn 2 then remove the blockers with cheap removal. consider this scenario:
T1: cast Zurgo Bellstriker
T2: attack with Zurgo Bellstriker (2 damage, down to 18), cast Falkenrath Gorger and Lightning Berserker
T3: use Fiery Impulse on blocker, swing the team for 5 (opponent down to 13), drop another Falkenrath Gorger you just drew
T4: use Lightning Axe on blocker, trigger Surge, cast Reckless Bushwhacker, attack for 10 (opponent down to 3)
T5: cast Fiery Temper to the face for the win.
turn 5 kill is still well within the aggro deck's objective. of course, the scenario above is more or less the ideal one, can't expect the opponent not to interact, but that's the game plan overall.
this is my slightly bigger Red Deck
4 Abbot of Keral Keep
4 Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh
4 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Goldnight Castigator
3 Lightning Berserker
3 Zurgo Bellstriker
4 Exquisite Firecraft
4 Fiery Impulse
4 Lightning Axe
4 Titan's Strength
22 Mountain
same strategy as the smaller version, only this one has the ability to ignore Flaying Tendrils, Languish, Kozilek's Return with Goldnight Castigator, which can, if uncontested or unanswered, can quickly end games especially when cast consecutively on turn 4 and 5.
finally, my new Atarka Red
4 Abbot of Keral Keep
4 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Lightning Berserker
4 Reckless Bushwhacker
4 Thopter Engineer
3 Zurgo Bellstriker
4 Atarka's Command
4 Dragon Fodder
4 Exquisite Firecraft
4 Fiery Impulse
4 Cinder Glade
2 Forest
4 Game Trail
11 Mountain
main problem would is if i can 90% of the time produce untapped red mana by turn 1 and an untapped green source by turn 4-5.
PS1: R/B deck still under construction.
PS2: i am not sold on Sin Prodder. sorry, Nevelo!
I think Call of the Full Moon deserves a look since we finally have enough 1-drops to play it consistently, and we need more 2-drops anyway. It's effectively a 3/2 trample haste with two substantial drawbacks. For one, you can't play 2 spells until your kill turn. For two, you get blown out by removal. But if you're playing Village Messenger you don't want to play 2 spells anyway.
T1: Zurgo Bellstriker
T2: Attack with Zurgo for 2 damage (down to 18), drop 2 Falkerath Gorger
T3: drop Lightning Berserker, trigger Surge, drop Reckless Bushwhacker, attack for 13 (down to 5)
T4: attack/burn finish
4 Insolent Neonate
3 Zurgo Bellstriker
4 Ravenous Bloodseeker
3 Bloodmad Vampire
3 Incorrigible Youths
4 Senseless Rage
4 Fiery Temper
4 Exquisite Firecraft
Lands
19 Mountain
4 Looming Spires
4 Hangerback Walker/
4 Avacyn's Judgment
3 Skin Invasion
2 Avaricious Dragon
2 Stensia Masquerade
Ravenous Bloodseeker + Senseless Rage or turn 3 Incorrigible Youths makes for some easy turn 4 goldfishes.
Also, thank you Nevelo for making the primer. Here is the deck I've been testing online to a good amount of success:
2 Zurgo Bellstriker
4 Village Messenger
4 Scourge Wolf
4 Abbot of Keral Keep
4 Kessig Forgemaster
4 Sin Prodder
4 Goldnight Castigator
4 Exquisite Firecraft
22 Mountain
4 Skin Invasion
4 Roast
4 Thunderbreak Regent
3 Tears of Valakut
Thoughts: Originally I ran skin invasion main deck but its only good against another aggro deck. The idea is to enchant their creature and then use the removal you were going to use on it anyway to produce a 3/4 blocker that will help you stabalize in the early turns.
Tears of Valakut might be replaced with Rending Volley however those flying demons can do a lot of damage and they arent white or blue. Most of your flying threats are though. It's also good on the side if people start using Castigator as I have which brings me to my next point.
Goldnight Castigator is a skill card. It survives Languish or any other -4 trick which gives it supreme potential. Still dies to ultimate price and has to be burned for 5 damage to die. You only cast him if you are going to win on that turn or the turn after usually. There are other special circumstances. Usually you will have a clogged ground state making blocking a potential and the need for flying a must. I highly recommend using it and then taking it out on a mirror matchup and replacing with Thunderbreak Regent. On a lot of game 2s online I've added Thunderbreak in addition to Castigator as they will likely use ground stall tactics for game two such as Jaddi offshoot and will have a harder time with the reach of the flyers.
Oh and Sin Prodder is the real deal.
RGWNaya BurnRGW+++RGWKiki ComboRGW
UGInfectUG+++++++++.++++++++UGMerfolkUG
GGNykthos WaveGG++++++++++GGStompyGG
BRVampiresBR+++++++.+++++++BRGoblinsBR
WGBogglesWG+++++++++++++CRSkred RedCR
UBRGDredgeUBRG++++++++++BB8 RackBB
URWJeskaiURW+++.++UBRGrixis DelverUBR
URStormUR++++++++UWGBant CompanyUWG
WUBRGHumansWUBRG+CCEldrazi TronCC
Sin Prodder and Goldnight Castigator have to be on the field swinging for 7 for a turn 4 finish from me. The other 7 points of damage can be made up in multiple ways such as a T1 Village messenger by herself if she flips and doesnt unflip on T2.
Menace really really really helps.
RGWNaya BurnRGW+++RGWKiki ComboRGW
UGInfectUG+++++++++.++++++++UGMerfolkUG
GGNykthos WaveGG++++++++++GGStompyGG
BRVampiresBR+++++++.+++++++BRGoblinsBR
WGBogglesWG+++++++++++++CRSkred RedCR
UBRGDredgeUBRG++++++++++BB8 RackBB
URWJeskaiURW+++.++UBRGrixis DelverUBR
URStormUR++++++++UWGBant CompanyUWG
WUBRGHumansWUBRG+CCEldrazi TronCC
T1 - Land, Gorger
T2 - Land, Fodder, Attack 2
T3 - Land, Gorger, Surge Bushwhacker, Attack 12 (14)
T4 - Attack 6 (20)
T1 - Land, Zurgo
T2 - Titan Strength, Attack 5
T3 - Land, Fodder, Attack 2 (7)
T4 - Land, Gorger, Surge Bushwhacker, Attack 12 (19)
T1 - Land, Gorger
T2 - Land, Fodder, Attack 2
T3 - Land, Firecraft, Attack 4 (10)
T4 - Land, Dash Berserker, Attack & Pump 8 (18)
T1 - Land, Zurgo
T2 - Land, Gorger, Impulse, Attack 2 (2)
T3 - Land, Sin Prodder, Attack 4 (6)
T4 - Reveal 2cmc (discard), Dash Berserker, Attack & Pump 10 (18)
T1 - Land, Zurgo
T2 - Land, Gorger, Attack 2
T3 - Abbot (land), Land, Impulse, Attack 4 (6)
T4 - Firecraft, Attack 7 (17)
T1 - Land, Gorger
T2 - Land, Gorger, Impulse, Attack 2
T3 - Land, Sin Prodder, Attack 4 (6)
T4 - Reveal 3cmc (discard), Attack 7 (16)
T1 - Land, Berserker
T2 - Land, Attack & Pump 3
T3 - Land, Attack & Pump 4 (7)
T4 - Land, Fodder, Surge Bushwhacker, Attack 8 (15)
At least in a vacuum...
This implies no interaction or blocking of course. I think the real test for the deck is the meta. From what I'm picking up though, Ayli and Advocate will be very common 2-drops for us to come up against. Add in a bunch of 3-drops, and I think we are going to come up against a lot of 2/3 or better fairly early. So being on the Draw will be tough. Impulse is kind of sad here, as we won't have Spellmastery that early. Roar is good, but To the Slaughter makes playing Thunderbreaks worse.
That isn't even talking about the 4-drops that just wreck us like Kalitas and Archangel of Tithes. Once they they get something like Avacyn out, I suppose it's nearly game over. Rending Volley helps a bit with the latter, but does nothing against the other two. Devour seems good, but is Socery speed. Axe is a consideration if the Discard isn't too bad.
I think RDW is solid. But I'm worried the meta is going to be harsh since our really bad Burn selection will have a hard time handling it.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
ah so you've gone W/x after Jeskai life? i went RDW route.
Roast vs Kalitas
Lighting Axe or Tears of Valakut vs Archangel of Tithes.
on a side note, Rending Volley can be very good vs W/x decks.
still, it's gonna be an uphill battle if those two are are not removed immediately.
but against Archangel of Tithes or Ojutai with Always Watching in the field? that's nightmarish.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Kalitas and Archangel of Tithes in the same deck? really hard to do. i don't expect to see them both in the same deck.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
i am no control player, but at the top of my mind, Languish, Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and Mindwrack Demon are more reasonable 4 drops than Archangel in B/W Control.
At any rate. I'm eager to see how R/x performs. I'm just not super confident based on my own testing because of the awkwardness of our Burn spells.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)