I just can't see mainboarding Thing in the Ice. Even if the goal isn't to flip it, it's wasting card space. Especially as a 4x. The slots would be better filled with spells to lock down the battlefield and consistent finishers. I do like the idea of sideboarding a few to board in once you see your opponent boarding out their removal but that's it. It's not a mainboard card right now.
Regarding Westvale Abbey, I don't think it has a home in Esper control.
1) Your manabase is already complicated enough being in 3 colors, and you don't need colorless mana.
2) 5 mana AND a life for ONE 1/1 is a heavy price to pay in this deck. You barely have any lifegain, and when you're tapping out 5 mana that's 5 mana you're not spending to counter, remove, or cast your finishers.
3) Unless you're sac'ing Jace and TITI's, 5 turns to churn out enough tokens then another to wait for it to untap so it can flip is a long time... assuming you start tapping out your mana after turn 6 (you can't do it on turn 5 because you can't use Westvale to power it), the soonest you'll flip it is turn 12 or 13.
4) A sweeper or simply a Declaration in Stone (which any deck even splashing white is going to run 4x of) could wipe away your tokens resetting the "clock".
5) Assuming you do the impossible and flip it, odds are they are just going to remove it (it's indestructible but there's tons of exile removal this cycle). And by the time you can flip it you probably gave up battlefield control because you were using up all your mana to churn out 1/1 tokens.
Valid points, but I would counter:
1. Chump blockers vs large non-trample creatures i.e. lose 1 instead of 5 from Gideon.
2. The demon flat out beats certain deck types, especially green decks that don't play that sac flyers card. Even if you only get to swing once, you're up 4 life if you did nothing else.
3. Potential win against other control decks. Duress the way clear, they have to find and waste removal (which gets boarded out), and it has to exile, and RESOLVE.
4. With Gideon, it's not hard to flip at all, and requires little to no life.
As long as your mana base works, the opportunity cost is worth it. I've found the chump blocking worth it's inclusion in the small amount of testing I've done so far.
1) With my Decklist there shouldn't be any enemy creatures on the board, especially by the time you could tap Westvale.
2) You'll likely never flip to the demon and there are easier ways to get large flyers sooner.
3) No room for duress in main board. Sphinx is better against control and control would never let you flip demon. You'll never have 5 creatures on the board against a control deck.
4) You shouldn't be main boarding Gideon in this kind of control deck.
For what you are trying to do, you need to be looking at the Azorius Tempo decks.
Tested From Under the Floorboards and Call the Bloodline with Westvale Abbey today and must say that I am extremely impressed with both the amount of incremental lifegain and ability to flip Abbey and JVP. Don't write these options off as unplayable for Esper control - they lend themselves wonderfully to what we want to accomplish. I don't know whether or not they will be part of my final build, but I do think that Abbey is the real deal now.
Also, JVP is definitely a 4x.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"[Lotleth Troll] is stupidly broken and will break Standard more so than Snapcaster Mage did last format." - ArchAvalon
Tested From Under the Floorboards and Call the Bloodline with Westvale Abbey today and must say that I am extremely impressed with both the amount of incremental lifegain and ability to flip Abbey and JVP. Don't write these options off as unplayable for Esper control - they lend themselves wonderfully to what we want to accomplish. I don't know whether or not they will be part of my final build, but I do think that Abbey is the real deal now.
Also, JVP is definitely a 4x.
That combo would be great... In UB Zombies. There isn't space for it here, you'd either have to give up battlefield control OR axe your finishers. Then you're depending on a low value janky combo to finish with.
West Vale is awesome but it doesn't belong in a creatureless deck. You could jam it in Azorius Tempo, it would shine in White Weenies, could even put it in UB Zombies.. But not here.
Its a cool combo and works fantastic I'm sure... but theres no room for it in Esper. Your taking up too much space on cards that only activate a land, that can still be exiled/killed. You could try and make a list and go deep on that combo as your win condition relying on the tokens to win, but I'd say it would be less effective than the traditional finishers we are using now.
I think there's always the impulse to try and make a deck do everything, but in the end you don't do anything well. Trimming the fat and sharpening the deck to do its "mission" as best as possible is really what deck building is about.
This deck's mission is to brutally lock down the battlefield and completely shut your opponent down while your finishers deploy and do their work in peace. When you start watering your deck down to do janky combos or jam in pet cards just to have them, you're doing yourself a disservice and greatly reducing your decks efficiency.
On another Subject... I revised my list a little further. Sorin, grim nemesis is such a power house, I needed more of him, and I found pick the brain is an animal!
I'm still struggling with counter magic and draw spells. Both subjects are just very lacking in this format. Open to mana base suggestions too!
1) With my Decklist there shouldn't be any enemy creatures on the board, especially by the time you could tap Westvale.
2) You'll likely never flip to the demon and there are easier ways to get large flyers sooner.
3) No room for duress in main board. Sphinx is better against control and control would never let you flip demon. You'll never have 5 creatures on the board against a control deck.
4) You shouldn't be main boarding Gideon in this kind of control deck.
For what you are trying to do, you need to be looking at the Azorius Tempo decks.
1. Who said you have to flip? It's an OPTION, something control players love having. Like I said, I like it for the chump blocking alone. If your deck keeps the board clear all the time with no hiccups, or stumbles, all the time, please shout me out when you accept your World Championship trophy. Did they print a card in Esper colors that stops Gaea's Revenge? Must've missed it...
2. It's happened in testing already, and where else can you get an uncounterable, lifelink, indestructable, flying 9/7?
3. Black based control with no discard? IDK about that one... I'll agree to disagree. See number 2.
4. It's been fine for me. He isn't necessary, just another OPTION.
Tested From Under the Floorboards and Call the Bloodline with Westvale Abbey today and must say that I am extremely impressed with both the amount of incremental lifegain and ability to flip Abbey and JVP. Don't write these options off as unplayable for Esper control - they lend themselves wonderfully to what we want to accomplish. I don't know whether or not they will be part of my final build, but I do think that Abbey is the real deal now.
Also, JVP is definitely a 4x.
That combo would be great... In UB Zombies. There isn't space for it here, you'd either have to give up battlefield control OR axe your finishers. Then you're depending on a low value janky combo to finish with.
West Vale is awesome but it doesn't belong in a creatureless deck. You could jam it in Azorius Tempo, it would shine in White Weenies, could even put it in UB Zombies.. But not here.
This thinking is definitely wrong. This isn't "Janky combos". This is called testing new cards. From under the floorboards is something to look at because it provides lifegain and threat density. I'm not saying it belongs in the deck, but I'm saying it is something that must be tested. Same with Bloodline and Abbey. Control needs long game inevitability which you don't exactly have. If you haven't even tried testing it then don't write it off as "jank"
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"[Lotleth Troll] is stupidly broken and will break Standard more so than Snapcaster Mage did last format." - ArchAvalon
Tested From Under the Floorboards and Call the Bloodline with Westvale Abbey today and must say that I am extremely impressed with both the amount of incremental lifegain and ability to flip Abbey and JVP. Don't write these options off as unplayable for Esper control - they lend themselves wonderfully to what we want to accomplish. I don't know whether or not they will be part of my final build, but I do think that Abbey is the real deal now.
Also, JVP is definitely a 4x.
That combo would be great... In UB Zombies. There isn't space for it here, you'd either have to give up battlefield control OR axe your finishers. Then you're depending on a low value janky combo to finish with.
West Vale is awesome but it doesn't belong in a creatureless deck. You could jam it in Azorius Tempo, it would shine in White Weenies, could even put it in UB Zombies.. But not here.
This thinking is definitely wrong. This isn't "Janky combos". This is called testing new cards. From under the floorboards is something to look at because it provides lifegain and threat density. I'm not saying it belongs in the deck, but I'm saying it is something that must be tested. Same with Bloodline and Abbey. Control needs long game inevitability which you don't exactly have. If you haven't even tried testing it then don't write it off as "jank"
Gonna piggy-back here but From Under the Floorboards is a finisher that provides life gain and board presence. Run a Mage-Ring Network that you can dump unused mana into at an enemy's end step and you can easily swing the board state in your favor by discarding the card (say to Catalog). Not saying it'll work, but it should be considered until it is tested and PROVED to not be viable in the deck.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing:
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
I mean... If you guys want to sacrifice efficiency and consistency by complicating your already strained mana base and trading reliable high value finishers for janky combos then by all means, do you. I'm going for maximum card value, consistency and versatility. My decklist can answer anything that's placed on the board and reliably finish. The mana base is as close to perfect as you're going to get in 3 colors this cycle. My sideboard is kind of cobbled together right now until the meta becomes clearer but my mainboard is solid.
Well I'm so glad your deck is so perfected that you actually don't need any testing done anymore. I can't wait to see you win all those big events with your perfected list.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"[Lotleth Troll] is stupidly broken and will break Standard more so than Snapcaster Mage did last format." - ArchAvalon
I'm not saying it's perfected, I'm saying its solid and consistent and has answers for anything that the uncertain meta can throw at it. Will it change when the meta becomes clear and there's specific threats? Most definitely. I've already preemptively acquired playsets of cards not listed here that I think could be useful later. By nature, control has to conform to the meta.
Anyways... You may find a shell those janky combos fire consistently in but I really don't think it will work here. If you wanna test it, please keep us posted on your results.
I think what Celestrael is trying to say.. is taking the safer route with a more consistent strategy, wins more games. I happen to agree with him on this one.
The goal behind a competitive deck is not to win some matches with really cool combos and surprise your opponents and leave them in awe, the goal is to construct a deck that is as consistent as possible, that will win you the highest percentage of matches - even if it means playing boring cards and lame strategies.
I mean if you want a From Under the Floorboards-like card in the deck you'd be better off with Rise from the Tides which is:
1) Easier to cast at one blue instead of two black.
2) Should give you way more zombies (value). In my list, there's 25 instant and sorcery cards.
3) You lose the 3 life gain, but again... More zombies.
4) The only discard engine we have is JVP who shouldn't be around by the time you'd cast FUtFB so you won't get to take advantage of the Madness mechanic on it.
Rise from the Tides into Westvale Abbey is a dank combo, but what are you going to give up to add it in? Adding 1 of each means you'll likely never fire it. Adding 3 or 4 of each to insure you draw the combo consistently means you're bumping out a lot of cards to make room. You'd either have to take from the Planeswalkers or you'd have to take from the instants and sorcery that keep the board clear, your hand full, and your walkers protected. You've also made your mana base less consistent.
So I got up with my friend who's been playing competitively off and on since Ice Age and had him review my decklist. He likes it and thinks it will be successful, but had some suggestions. He thought it would be more competitive to have some mid-game threat. In the decklist posted here, the finishing comes late game and mid-game is mostly setting the board and my hand up for Sorin or Sphinx and applying pressure with Narset and Jace.
The Changes:
- Moved 1x Narset Transcendent to the sideboard in exchange for 1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. Gideon will provide threat earlier, and can pop out blockers to shield himself and the other planeswalkers.
- Moved Sphinx of the Final Word to the sideboard for control match-ups and put in Dragonlord Ojutai. I heavily resisted placing any dragons in this deck, but Ojutai comes out sooner, smoothes out my curve, and provides more card draw/filtering. When Ojutai cycles out, I'm sure Sphinx will go back in unless the new set has something better.
- The concern of Epiphany at the Drownyard burying my finishers was raised and I agree with him that it isn't an acceptable risk. I decided to remove them for now, and put Read the Bones back in. The deck has pretty ample card draw in the mid-to-late game so large draw spells aren't really necessary. You have Jace, Narset, Sorin and Ojutai all drawing.
Contemplated Changes:
1) I'm not sure how I feel about Clash of Wills. It gets more expensive as the game goes on. There isn't really an outstanding spell out there. My biggest concern is countering sorcery and instant spells that target my walkers, so although everyone seems to think Negate only has a place in the sideboard, I honestly think it's the most efficient spell for the slot. Counters removal, counters planeswalkers, counters enchantments, etc. I'm not sure. He and I are still working to address the counter issue.
2) I'm considering trading out 1x Jace, Unraveler of Secrets for 1x Call the Gatewatch. It could fetch any walker I'm really needing and can be rebounded with Narset Transcendent and flashed back with Jace, Vryn's Prodigy. Jury is still out over whether that would be a good move or not. I'm quite torn.
@Celestreal:
I'm not sure about Clash of Wills either. In the early game it's not bad, but there comes a time when it just costs too much for me. If it was Syncopate, I'd be all over it, but as it is, I'm not impressed. I cut it down to two in my list and replaced the extra copy with a Negate.
I'm also skeptical of Call the Gatewatch. I see why you want to run it, and it seems like it'd help close out games faster, but I don't think we really need to be closing faster than we are. We're the slowest deck and we have the most inevitability in the format right now. That being said, please test it and tell us how it goes.
I won't be able to afford Jace, Vryn's Prodigy until next month, so for the time being, this is my list. I decided to replace him with 1x Dragonlord Ojutai, 1x Confirm Suspicions, and 1x Artificer's Epiphany. I'm going to be jumping into an unknown meta on Friday of this week, and I think my list has most of the answers it needs.
I'm also testing my deck out in paper for the first time HOPEFULLY on Friday. My Declaration in Stone preorder hasn't given me a shopping notification yet. I'm worried it's because the seller is salty with me for canceling some of my other preorders through them. I'd cancel the preorder and order from someone else but I ordered them for 2.85 a pop and they are 10 dollars a pop now so I'm just going to wait patiently for now lol. M
Your list looks pretty similar to mine. Decend Upon the Sinful won't work in your deck I don't think. It's expensive and you probably will never hit delerium, especially without JVP. If you want another board wipe I'd do another copy of Engulf or a Planar Outburst. Also, why Artificers Epiphany? You have no artifacts. Go with Read the Bones or Contemplative Analysis.
Yeah, Comparative Analysis is going to be better than Artificer's Epiphany. I was originally running it as a one-of in place of a second Epiphany at the Drownyard.
I want Descend upon the Sinful because I anticipate a lot of Big Eldrazi decks in my meta, and the one deck I know for sure is a recursion build. Against a World Breaker or an attempt at a recurred Titan, Descend is going to be better than the cheaper spells. Depending on how this Friday goes, I may be switching to Planar Outburst or even to a 3rd Languish.
I think all decks are going to struggle against Eldrazi ramp decks. I'm mostly worried about the "when you cast"/enter the battlefield effects on World Breaker, Thought-Knot Seer and Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger. Even if I have a primed and ready Void Shatter, Ulamog and World Breaker are going to hit my board.
If I take out their ramp and am aggressive with Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, Dragonlord Ojutai and Shambling Vent I may be able to kill them before they can cast Ulamog. So that's my biggest concentration right now, countering their ramp spells and removing their dorks. I really wish I had room in my deck for hand hate like Transgress the Mind to try and shake those things lose from their hand before they ever have a chance to cast. I'm at the point now where space is so tight and the wiggle room is gone. Everything in the decklist is critical. So many questions, so little space for answers!
I think you just play through Ulamog and Breaker. It is not hard to play through them. Playing an aggressive Esper deck just seems sketch. You are going to find yourself in a position where you are set up to be aggressive, and if you slip behind, you have to give up what was invested in being aggressive in the first place. I would rather just focus on a stable set up.
My decklist was 100% Dragonless, but I really wanted to put out threat consistently throughout the game so I swapped out Sphinx of the Final Word for 1x Dragonlord Ojutai. I named the thread Dragonless Esper Control to distinguish it from Esper Dragons which runs a lot more creatures (dragons) and most of their instants/sorcery are dragon-related. I had no interest in playing Esper Dragons so I've been brewing this deck for a month (starting in the New Card Discussion forum) and this is where it ended up landing.
Regarding painful truths, the life loss is a no-go. Furthermore this deck doesn't need a lot of big mid & late-game card draw, because Sorin, JUS, Narset and Ojutai all have card draw. I run 4x Anticipate and 2x Read the Bones for early game then the walkers/ojutai will take it from there. This deck actually runs the risk of decking itself with all the card draw, so Learn from the Past is a one-of to prevent that from happening (and can also be used aggressively against delirium/graveyard manip decks if need be).
The last change I'm thinking about making is adding Westvale Abbey as a 1x. I've been resisting it because I really don't see it ever flipping and it'll complicate my mana base, but everyone seems to think it's critical. Gideon can help flip it but I think in most circumstances I'd want Gideon +1'ing their face and be saving mana for removal/counter instead of generating tokens with Westvale. I'm gonna test it this weekend with my friend to see how it plays out.
Is the one life point such a big deal between Read the Bones and Painful Truths? In three color decks, Painful Truths is pretty much the better card because it draws one more. Yes, Read the Bones has the scry 2 but usually the extra card is just as good if not better. I just find it weird that you're happy to run one but not the other, citing "the life loss is a no-go" as explanation.
If you want to play Westvale Abbey, I think you want a couple of Hangarback Walker in the deck, which aren't awful creatures for control to play anyway. Something to do early, gives value through a sweeper (though obviously not with Descend Upon the Sinful) and gives value through blocking. I don't think the Abbey is worth it without a creature like that, though. If you have a bunch of Gideon tokens in play, you're already winning that game.
I prefer the scry 2, because when I'm using Read the Bones it's early game and I'm trying to fish out particular cards. Again, I don't need a lot of large card draw because I have consistent card draw engines that will keep my hand well-stocked in the mid and late game. Anticipate and Read the Bones are for filtering up my walkers, Ojutai, or a much needed sweeper if my feet are being held to the fire by aggro.
My point is that drawing three is better than drawing two with scry 2 (which works out at about draw 2.5 cards) when mana costs are identical. I understand you like the filtering of Read the Bones, but you have three colors to always make Painful Truths be x=3. You also cannot guarantee that you are only ever casting Read the Bones in the early game. That's a ridiculous statement.
Let me put it this way: every time you scry both cards to the top and then draw them, Painful Truths would have been better (the two desired cards + one). Every time you scry 1 top/1 bottom, Painful Truths is the same (it was gong to draw those two cards anyway). Every time you scry 2 to the bottom, Painful Truths is only just behind (it would have drawn you one of the cards anyway).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Valid points, but I would counter:
1. Chump blockers vs large non-trample creatures i.e. lose 1 instead of 5 from Gideon.
2. The demon flat out beats certain deck types, especially green decks that don't play that sac flyers card. Even if you only get to swing once, you're up 4 life if you did nothing else.
3. Potential win against other control decks. Duress the way clear, they have to find and waste removal (which gets boarded out), and it has to exile, and RESOLVE.
4. With Gideon, it's not hard to flip at all, and requires little to no life.
As long as your mana base works, the opportunity cost is worth it. I've found the chump blocking worth it's inclusion in the small amount of testing I've done so far.
2) You'll likely never flip to the demon and there are easier ways to get large flyers sooner.
3) No room for duress in main board. Sphinx is better against control and control would never let you flip demon. You'll never have 5 creatures on the board against a control deck.
4) You shouldn't be main boarding Gideon in this kind of control deck.
For what you are trying to do, you need to be looking at the Azorius Tempo decks.
WUBEsper ControlWUB
Also, JVP is definitely a 4x.
That combo would be great... In UB Zombies. There isn't space for it here, you'd either have to give up battlefield control OR axe your finishers. Then you're depending on a low value janky combo to finish with.
West Vale is awesome but it doesn't belong in a creatureless deck. You could jam it in Azorius Tempo, it would shine in White Weenies, could even put it in UB Zombies.. But not here.
WUBEsper ControlWUB
Its a cool combo and works fantastic I'm sure... but theres no room for it in Esper. Your taking up too much space on cards that only activate a land, that can still be exiled/killed. You could try and make a list and go deep on that combo as your win condition relying on the tokens to win, but I'd say it would be less effective than the traditional finishers we are using now.
This deck's mission is to brutally lock down the battlefield and completely shut your opponent down while your finishers deploy and do their work in peace. When you start watering your deck down to do janky combos or jam in pet cards just to have them, you're doing yourself a disservice and greatly reducing your decks efficiency.
WUBEsper ControlWUB
On another Subject... I revised my list a little further. Sorin, grim nemesis is such a power house, I needed more of him, and I found pick the brain is an animal!
I'm still struggling with counter magic and draw spells. Both subjects are just very lacking in this format. Open to mana base suggestions too!
3 Dragonlord Ojutai
3 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1 Jace, Unraveler of secrets
3 Void Shatter
1 Scatter to the winds
1 Ojutai's Command
1 Negate
2 Epiphany at the drownyard
2 Pore over the pages
2 Pick the Brain
2 Anguished Unmaking
3 To the Slaughter
3 Ultimate price
3 Languish
1 Sinister Concoction
1 Flaying Tendrils
4 Sunken Hollow
4 Prairie Stream
4 Choked Estuary
2 Port Town
1 Submerged Boneyard
3 Shambling Vent
1 Evolving wilds
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Sphinx of the final word
1 Languish
1 Ultimate Price
3 Negate
1 Flaying Tendrils
1 Duress
2 Hallowed Moonlight
2 Declaration in stone
2 Virulent Plague
Most of the sideboard is geared towards control matchups, tokens and aggro, and then hallowed moonlight for CoCo matches.
1. Who said you have to flip? It's an OPTION, something control players love having. Like I said, I like it for the chump blocking alone. If your deck keeps the board clear all the time with no hiccups, or stumbles, all the time, please shout me out when you accept your World Championship trophy. Did they print a card in Esper colors that stops Gaea's Revenge? Must've missed it...
2. It's happened in testing already, and where else can you get an uncounterable, lifelink, indestructable, flying 9/7?
3. Black based control with no discard? IDK about that one... I'll agree to disagree. See number 2.
4. It's been fine for me. He isn't necessary, just another OPTION.
This thinking is definitely wrong. This isn't "Janky combos". This is called testing new cards. From under the floorboards is something to look at because it provides lifegain and threat density. I'm not saying it belongs in the deck, but I'm saying it is something that must be tested. Same with Bloodline and Abbey. Control needs long game inevitability which you don't exactly have. If you haven't even tried testing it then don't write it off as "jank"
Gonna piggy-back here but From Under the Floorboards is a finisher that provides life gain and board presence. Run a Mage-Ring Network that you can dump unused mana into at an enemy's end step and you can easily swing the board state in your favor by discarding the card (say to Catalog). Not saying it'll work, but it should be considered until it is tested and PROVED to not be viable in the deck.
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
WUBEsper ControlWUB
Anyways... You may find a shell those janky combos fire consistently in but I really don't think it will work here. If you wanna test it, please keep us posted on your results.
WUBEsper ControlWUB
I think what Celestrael is trying to say.. is taking the safer route with a more consistent strategy, wins more games. I happen to agree with him on this one.
The goal behind a competitive deck is not to win some matches with really cool combos and surprise your opponents and leave them in awe, the goal is to construct a deck that is as consistent as possible, that will win you the highest percentage of matches - even if it means playing boring cards and lame strategies.
1) Easier to cast at one blue instead of two black.
2) Should give you way more zombies (value). In my list, there's 25 instant and sorcery cards.
3) You lose the 3 life gain, but again... More zombies.
4) The only discard engine we have is JVP who shouldn't be around by the time you'd cast FUtFB so you won't get to take advantage of the Madness mechanic on it.
Rise from the Tides into Westvale Abbey is a dank combo, but what are you going to give up to add it in? Adding 1 of each means you'll likely never fire it. Adding 3 or 4 of each to insure you draw the combo consistently means you're bumping out a lot of cards to make room. You'd either have to take from the Planeswalkers or you'd have to take from the instants and sorcery that keep the board clear, your hand full, and your walkers protected. You've also made your mana base less consistent.
WUBEsper ControlWUB
The Changes:
- Moved 1x Narset Transcendent to the sideboard in exchange for 1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. Gideon will provide threat earlier, and can pop out blockers to shield himself and the other planeswalkers.
- Moved Sphinx of the Final Word to the sideboard for control match-ups and put in Dragonlord Ojutai. I heavily resisted placing any dragons in this deck, but Ojutai comes out sooner, smoothes out my curve, and provides more card draw/filtering. When Ojutai cycles out, I'm sure Sphinx will go back in unless the new set has something better.
- The concern of Epiphany at the Drownyard burying my finishers was raised and I agree with him that it isn't an acceptable risk. I decided to remove them for now, and put Read the Bones back in. The deck has pretty ample card draw in the mid-to-late game so large draw spells aren't really necessary. You have Jace, Narset, Sorin and Ojutai all drawing.
The New Decklist:
1x Plains
2x Swamp
2x Port Town
3x Island
4x Prairie Stream
3x Shambling Vent
4x Sunken Hollow
4x Evolving Wilds
3x Choked Estuary
Instant (17)
3x Anguished Unmaking
3x Clash of Wills
3x Void Shatter
4x Anticipate
2x To the Slaughter
1x Learn From the Past
1x Engulf the Shore
4x Declaration in Stone
2x Languish
2x Read the Bones
Planeswalkers (8)
3x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2x Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
1x Narset Transcendent
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1x Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Creatures (1)
1x Dragonlord Ojutai
2x Infinite Obliteration
2x Surge of Righteousness
2x Planar Outburst
2x To The Slaughter
1x Sphinx of the Final Word
2x Ojutai's Command
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1x Narset Transcendent
2x Negate
Contemplated Changes:
1) I'm not sure how I feel about Clash of Wills. It gets more expensive as the game goes on. There isn't really an outstanding spell out there. My biggest concern is countering sorcery and instant spells that target my walkers, so although everyone seems to think Negate only has a place in the sideboard, I honestly think it's the most efficient spell for the slot. Counters removal, counters planeswalkers, counters enchantments, etc. I'm not sure. He and I are still working to address the counter issue.
2) I'm considering trading out 1x Jace, Unraveler of Secrets for 1x Call the Gatewatch. It could fetch any walker I'm really needing and can be rebounded with Narset Transcendent and flashed back with Jace, Vryn's Prodigy. Jury is still out over whether that would be a good move or not. I'm quite torn.
Thoughts? Comments? Concerns?
WUBEsper ControlWUB
I'm not sure about Clash of Wills either. In the early game it's not bad, but there comes a time when it just costs too much for me. If it was Syncopate, I'd be all over it, but as it is, I'm not impressed. I cut it down to two in my list and replaced the extra copy with a Negate.
I'm also skeptical of Call the Gatewatch. I see why you want to run it, and it seems like it'd help close out games faster, but I don't think we really need to be closing faster than we are. We're the slowest deck and we have the most inevitability in the format right now. That being said, please test it and tell us how it goes.
1 Blighted Cataract
1 Caves of Koilos
3 Choked Estuary
2 Evolving Wilds
3 Island
1 Plains
3 Port Town
4 Prairie Stream
3 Shambling Vent
4 Sunken Hollow
1 Swamp
2 Dragonlord Ojutai
Planeswalkers 5
2 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
2 Narset Transcendent
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Instants 20
2 Anguished Unmaking
4 Anticipate
2 Clash of Wills
1 Confirm Suspicions
1 Engulf the Shore
2 Artificer's Epiphany
1 Epiphany at the Drownyard
1 Learn from the Past
1 Negate
2 To the Slaughter
3 Void Shatter
4 Declaration in Stone
2 Languish
1 Descend Upon the Sinful
I won't be able to afford Jace, Vryn's Prodigy until next month, so for the time being, this is my list. I decided to replace him with 1x Dragonlord Ojutai, 1x Confirm Suspicions, and 1x Artificer's Epiphany. I'm going to be jumping into an unknown meta on Friday of this week, and I think my list has most of the answers it needs.
My sideboard is flexible, but will probably contain some mix of Duress, Transgress the Mind, Negate, Infinite Obliteration, Anguished Unmaking, Flaying Tendrils, and Surge of Roghteousness.
Thoughts? Tear it apart, please.
Your list looks pretty similar to mine. Decend Upon the Sinful won't work in your deck I don't think. It's expensive and you probably will never hit delerium, especially without JVP. If you want another board wipe I'd do another copy of Engulf or a Planar Outburst. Also, why Artificers Epiphany? You have no artifacts. Go with Read the Bones or Contemplative Analysis.
WUBEsper ControlWUB
I want Descend upon the Sinful because I anticipate a lot of Big Eldrazi decks in my meta, and the one deck I know for sure is a recursion build. Against a World Breaker or an attempt at a recurred Titan, Descend is going to be better than the cheaper spells. Depending on how this Friday goes, I may be switching to Planar Outburst or even to a 3rd Languish.
If I take out their ramp and am aggressive with Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, Dragonlord Ojutai and Shambling Vent I may be able to kill them before they can cast Ulamog. So that's my biggest concentration right now, countering their ramp spells and removing their dorks. I really wish I had room in my deck for hand hate like Transgress the Mind to try and shake those things lose from their hand before they ever have a chance to cast. I'm at the point now where space is so tight and the wiggle room is gone. Everything in the decklist is critical. So many questions, so little space for answers!
WUBEsper ControlWUB
Regarding painful truths, the life loss is a no-go. Furthermore this deck doesn't need a lot of big mid & late-game card draw, because Sorin, JUS, Narset and Ojutai all have card draw. I run 4x Anticipate and 2x Read the Bones for early game then the walkers/ojutai will take it from there. This deck actually runs the risk of decking itself with all the card draw, so Learn from the Past is a one-of to prevent that from happening (and can also be used aggressively against delirium/graveyard manip decks if need be).
The last change I'm thinking about making is adding Westvale Abbey as a 1x. I've been resisting it because I really don't see it ever flipping and it'll complicate my mana base, but everyone seems to think it's critical. Gideon can help flip it but I think in most circumstances I'd want Gideon +1'ing their face and be saving mana for removal/counter instead of generating tokens with Westvale. I'm gonna test it this weekend with my friend to see how it plays out.
WUBEsper ControlWUB
If you want to play Westvale Abbey, I think you want a couple of Hangarback Walker in the deck, which aren't awful creatures for control to play anyway. Something to do early, gives value through a sweeper (though obviously not with Descend Upon the Sinful) and gives value through blocking. I don't think the Abbey is worth it without a creature like that, though. If you have a bunch of Gideon tokens in play, you're already winning that game.
WUBEsper ControlWUB
Let me put it this way: every time you scry both cards to the top and then draw them, Painful Truths would have been better (the two desired cards + one). Every time you scry 1 top/1 bottom, Painful Truths is the same (it was gong to draw those two cards anyway). Every time you scry 2 to the bottom, Painful Truths is only just behind (it would have drawn you one of the cards anyway).