I don't understand playing Relentless Dead without a sacrifice outlet. There's a few reasons to play white, Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim is a great secondary sacrifice outlet to Nantuko Husk.
Anguished Unmaking is a SB card, IMHO, I don't see worth in MB'ing this card at all, just like Utter End it solved a certain problem or assisted in solving that problem even more.
White does seem pretty nice, and I see what you mean about how you're playing the deck.
You mention needing sac outlets, what'd you think about Altar's Reap, it costs, but only 2 mana, and draws cards too. Not quite Read the Bones, but you said cheap = good.
As for the white cards, there is the Sorcery speed Not Forgotten that may be ok, but probably not great. I agree with Declaration in Stone, and Angelic Purge, but not Stasis Snare or Silkwrap in this deck. However both those cards (DiS and AP) are sorcery, and dont hit PW. Siding in Anguished Unmaking would fix that, but at that point you may as well just run it over AP unless you want the sac outlet from AP. Shambling Vent and Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim fit great in this IMO as well. Finally Always Watching has been a great card in my testing of other decks and I think its well worth it.
Having said that, my interest in blue are using it a bit more offensively. Compelling Deterrence opens a gap for you to swing, and hand hates. Essence Flux saves a creature, but I'm not that big on it on this deck. Slip Through Space I do like though as its a bit more aggressive, cantrips, and its definitely not expected outside of a prowess deck.
For creatures, I like the 4 blue zombies, sure they arent super great, but I think they're decent. prize amalgam = helps recursion, and helps with some pressure, plus a decent body. Liable to take some (probably not much, but some) hate off of Relentless Dead stitched mangler = Again, fits theme, clears a gap, however comes in tapped, but playing a more offensive style, thats not much different than summon sickness in terms of attacking. Forgotten Creation = eh, smaller body than we'd like, somewhat cool effect as it kinda feeds the recursion. not terribly great. Geralf's Masterpiece = a 3 of at most, and only when playing a more offensive game and you're ok to tap out for him. then again, casting him T5 and tapping out to have them kill a Relentless Dead is fine with me if I get to smack for 7 next turn.
Finally, another one I've been looking at, and it would probably need some help, but seems great is... Invasive Surgery.
Again, I'm speaking in terms of running a bit more offensive, and 1 cmc spells are awesome in those decks. Plus, this spell hits a TON of the best removal in the format. Declaration in Stone, Languish, Angelic Purge, Ruinous Path, Duress, Transgress.... so on. As well as a few other common spells. If you manage delirium, which you may now and again, it does some BIG work for the deck.
What are your thoughts on green, theres some ramp, more sac outlets, decent draw, more recursion.
Prized Amalgam - it comes in tapped on the next end step, this is my biggest issue with the card. If you do any recursion on your turn, you have to wait til next turn before this is active. Best use is to sac or kill Relentless Dead during blocking on opponents turn, recur a creature and get it back. Of course it's a 3/3 zombie for 3CMC so it's at least lining up in that sense. Other than that without Relentless Dead, Necromantic Summons, Ever After or Den Protector/Deathmist Raptor, it's just a 3/3. The 3 slot is plenty full with Husk/Fleshbag/Colossus.
Stitched Mangler - I'm more interested in making my opponent enter combat with his creatures. Like I said the 3 slot is full already.
My work blocked mtgsalvation so I'm using my mobile.
Mono black may be better. The blue for masterpiece isn't needed. The flying is nice but usually just comes out to block a flyer and die. Oddmyth keeps trying to pump some board cantrips...the deck doesn't work like that. The cards aren't that good. You aren't going to get a lil engine going in any competitive games that you haven't already won outright...
Prized almagan is just plain bad. 3/3 for 3 is bad now. The creation is nice cause of his ability to get thru for damage in the late game. As a one of maybe.
The red version does exactly the same thing as the blue. Pound in zombies...hope to avoid board wipe and out mass them.
I think white or green would both be better alternatives to blue or red...
Gonna try the green version since dusk is going white.
Don't focus on the recursion... It's not gonna happen very often. Maybe the dead will cycle each other but that's it. Need some
Ench/art/walker support for this to push thru. To many midrange decks that can handle the onslaught then stablize. Liliana still is the bread and butter. So three drops are solid. Kalitas is a great card but had no board impact and Dies to easy. Your zombies won't eat targeted remove so they WILL have it for him. Mind wrack demon might fit better and he avoids languish and grasp & firecraft.
In the deck with white, should I replace Gideon in the side with Always Watching? It's one mana less and helps a vast majority of the deck (the only thing it really doesn't are the tokens off FUtF and Colossus). To A_E_I_Own_U's point, would Ayli be a better fit for the deck, as pyro1934 has mentioned it fits well in his testing.
Edit: Made a few changes to the WB deck in main post. I feel, after thinking about it, Ayli is better in the deck than Kalitas. I also removed the Gideon's for Always Watching
Whats your current decklist Dusk? I took a bit of a break from this deck and have been loving my Fevered Visions bounce control deck, but I think I'm going to continue building this as my 2nd deck as I like running with 2 during a season and this one seems more fun. I accidentally deleted mine off TappedOut lol
The current one I'm planning on running is the WB list on the main post. Going to pre-release events this weekend and will try to pick up all of the pieces I'm missing ASAP
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Currently Playing:
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
Been pulling together the BW deck and, after the prerelease events I attended, am missing only a handful of cards that I should be able to pick up this weekend between trades and the box I intend to open. Surprisingly enough the people who pull Sorin didn't want to trade him away.
Question: Does Archangel Avacyn fit into the BW version of the deck? It can clear bodies, enable recursion, and set up Diregraf Colossus entering really big.
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Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
Melissa DeTora put this deck up. I'd probably want some more counters in there and I can't afford Jace, perhaps Liliana would be ok, but interesting as a start.
Melissa DeTora put this deck up. I'd probably want some more counters in there and I can't afford Jace, perhaps Liliana would be ok, but interesting as a start.
Can you provide a link to the article please? Anyone think this deck is viable? I really want to play a Zombies deck but they all feel underpowered at the moment.
Melissa DeTora put this deck up. I'd probably want some more counters in there and I can't afford Jace, perhaps Liliana would be ok, but interesting as a start.
Can you provide a link to the article please? Anyone think this deck is viable? I really want to play a Zombies deck but they all feel underpowered at the moment.
Personally, I feel it is a bit too heavy on the creature side (likely to abuse the Colossus). With all the discard effects I feel From Under the Floorboards would do really well. I've never been a fan of Ruinous Path and feel that Ultimate Price will serve much the same purpose at instant speed, To the Slaughter could also work, if you can hit delirium/keep their board clear. Liliana, Heretical Healer and Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet are both cards to consider as well.
Edit: With the Human decks and CoCo decks running around right now I think serious consideration should be given to Languish as a means to clear the board and allow us to establish the board in our favor with the recursion engines that are built into the Zombie tribe this time around.
I hope these work, I'm using my phone. Sorry for not using tags...
I would probably have Liliana instead of Jace, mainly because I can't afford multiple Jaces and Sidisi, Undead Vizier. Languish is a definite sideboard. I like a lot of counters so I'm also considering Mindwrack Demon and Thing in the Ice, although Westvale Abbey could be an option instead.
Where I'm wondering is if I want some Evolving Wilds in there. The idea is that it can just push and push and then drop a big Zombie Horror, or go in with the Masterpiece or Westvale/Ormendahl.
Edit: put in my order for this, went with Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet instead of Liliana. It will stay relevant for longer in the format, the lifelink helps and the zombies can pump up both Kalitas and the Nantukos.
Hmm, no one else seems bothered... I think the biggest problem with this deck is the lack of graveyard dumping enablers. It's typical Wizards to finally do something graveyard and them get rid of the best cards for it. Sidisi would have helped here. As it stands, probably the only option is to just chump block as much as possible, take a few to the head and hope you can drop Masterpiece.
Hmm, no one else seems bothered... I think the biggest problem with this deck is the lack of graveyard dumping enablers. It's typical Wizards to finally do something graveyard and them get rid of the best cards for it. Sidisi would have helped here. As it stands, probably the only option is to just chump block as much as possible, take a few to the head and hope you can drop Masterpiece.
Well, to be fair, I didn't see where you clearly asked for anything from people.
There are a ton of cards that dump stuff in the graveyard: Mindwrack Demon, Corpse Churn, Gather the Pack, Kiora, Origins Jace, Oath of Jace, Vessel of Nascency, Autumnal Gloom, Crawling Sensation, ... How competitive they are is open for question. As I understand it, Wizards wants to support every archetype, but some archetypes are better than others.
Hey guys I have been working on a mono black version of the zombie deck.
What I found so far:
- Languish has been awesome, especially with all the humans around, and we get more value from cards in our graveyards than they do
- Plainswalker removal is essential now that Sorin is in the mix. Both chandra and sorin can kill your creatures before they get to attack
- Relentless dead is awesome, so is diregraf colossus, he usually ends up at least a 5/5 for 3 cmc most of the time
- Shambling goblin easily 2-for-1s most human decks, especially in the early game. Using it to sacrifice to flesh bag is amazing.
- Fleshbag is awesome, nobody expects it, it gets by Reality Smasher's secondary pretty well
I like your thinking with this. I'm splashing U obviously. I guess with Languish, if you have the mana open, you could cast it and as Relentless Dead dies either return it to your hand or return another Zombie from the graveyard for the X ability, no? And returning Fleshbag Marauder must be a real pain in the backside, it's like a recurring 3 CMC kill spell.
Yeah exactly they all work so well together. I had Tainted Remedy in my sideboard last standard, but I have to say I haven't been in a situation yet in testing that I had to side it in. I probably need to rework that sideboard. What are your thoughts on hangarback walker and Risen Executioner?
Foul-Tongue Shriek. With all of those zombie tokens on the battle field........just saying
This is my mono-black , well almost mono black. I got one blue card in there and it is only in there for the ability to discard to activate madness.
I am playing around with throwing Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
Hangarback I left out because it's not a Zombie and I wanted to keep Kalitas the only non-Zombie. Executioner I've gone up to three of, he just makes everyone better.
This is where mine has ended up at the moment. I'm really liking it, lots of synergies and decisions to be made. I think the key is to be hyperaggressive, chump block as much as possible, just to kill off things, and hit in, either with Ormendahl, or the Masterpiece with the Passage. Looking forward to playing it for real.
My list, pretty much as per above, but dropping the two Husks and going four-of on the Fleshbags and Diregrafs, didn't do too well at game day. Rather unsurprisingly. A couple of games I either mana flooded or drew none, but it's the lack of finishers really that hurt. It falls to removal very easily as well, removing key components when you need them, and then wham, in comes Archangel Avacyn or a bunch of Reflector Mages.
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Anguished Unmaking is a SB card, IMHO, I don't see worth in MB'ing this card at all, just like Utter End it solved a certain problem or assisted in solving that problem even more.
White has some of the best cheap removal
Declaration in Stone
Stasis Snare
Silkwrap
Angelic Purge
Three other cards that would be of some interest (to me) would be:
Bygone Bishop
Gryff's Boon
Always Watching
You mention needing sac outlets, what'd you think about Altar's Reap, it costs, but only 2 mana, and draws cards too. Not quite Read the Bones, but you said cheap = good.
As for the white cards, there is the Sorcery speed Not Forgotten that may be ok, but probably not great. I agree with Declaration in Stone, and Angelic Purge, but not Stasis Snare or Silkwrap in this deck. However both those cards (DiS and AP) are sorcery, and dont hit PW. Siding in Anguished Unmaking would fix that, but at that point you may as well just run it over AP unless you want the sac outlet from AP. Shambling Vent and Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim fit great in this IMO as well. Finally Always Watching has been a great card in my testing of other decks and I think its well worth it.
Having said that, my interest in blue are using it a bit more offensively. Compelling Deterrence opens a gap for you to swing, and hand hates. Essence Flux saves a creature, but I'm not that big on it on this deck. Slip Through Space I do like though as its a bit more aggressive, cantrips, and its definitely not expected outside of a prowess deck.
For creatures, I like the 4 blue zombies, sure they arent super great, but I think they're decent.
prize amalgam = helps recursion, and helps with some pressure, plus a decent body. Liable to take some (probably not much, but some) hate off of Relentless Dead
stitched mangler = Again, fits theme, clears a gap, however comes in tapped, but playing a more offensive style, thats not much different than summon sickness in terms of attacking.
Forgotten Creation = eh, smaller body than we'd like, somewhat cool effect as it kinda feeds the recursion. not terribly great.
Geralf's Masterpiece = a 3 of at most, and only when playing a more offensive game and you're ok to tap out for him. then again, casting him T5 and tapping out to have them kill a Relentless Dead is fine with me if I get to smack for 7 next turn.
Finally, another one I've been looking at, and it would probably need some help, but seems great is... Invasive Surgery.
Again, I'm speaking in terms of running a bit more offensive, and 1 cmc spells are awesome in those decks. Plus, this spell hits a TON of the best removal in the format. Declaration in Stone, Languish, Angelic Purge, Ruinous Path, Duress, Transgress.... so on. As well as a few other common spells. If you manage delirium, which you may now and again, it does some BIG work for the deck.
What are your thoughts on green, theres some ramp, more sac outlets, decent draw, more recursion.
Stitched Mangler - I'm more interested in making my opponent enter combat with his creatures. Like I said the 3 slot is full already.
Geralf's Masterpiece - Great card, but you don't need to play blue in order to put this card in your deck. Relentless Dead can cast this from the GY, or you can use Necromantic Summons, Ever After.
Invasive Surgery is awesome. Probably my favourite newly printed blue card.
Mono black may be better. The blue for masterpiece isn't needed. The flying is nice but usually just comes out to block a flyer and die. Oddmyth keeps trying to pump some board cantrips...the deck doesn't work like that. The cards aren't that good. You aren't going to get a lil engine going in any competitive games that you haven't already won outright...
Prized almagan is just plain bad. 3/3 for 3 is bad now. The creation is nice cause of his ability to get thru for damage in the late game. As a one of maybe.
The red version does exactly the same thing as the blue. Pound in zombies...hope to avoid board wipe and out mass them.
I think white or green would both be better alternatives to blue or red...
Gonna try the green version since dusk is going white.
Don't focus on the recursion... It's not gonna happen very often. Maybe the dead will cycle each other but that's it. Need some
Ench/art/walker support for this to push thru. To many midrange decks that can handle the onslaught then stablize. Liliana still is the bread and butter. So three drops are solid. Kalitas is a great card but had no board impact and Dies to easy. Your zombies won't eat targeted remove so they WILL have it for him. Mind wrack demon might fit better and he avoids languish and grasp & firecraft.
Edit: Made a few changes to the WB deck in main post. I feel, after thinking about it, Ayli is better in the deck than Kalitas. I also removed the Gideon's for Always Watching
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
Whats your current decklist Dusk? I took a bit of a break from this deck and have been loving my Fevered Visions bounce control deck, but I think I'm going to continue building this as my 2nd deck as I like running with 2 during a season and this one seems more fun. I accidentally deleted mine off TappedOut lol
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
Question: Does Archangel Avacyn fit into the BW version of the deck? It can clear bodies, enable recursion, and set up Diregraf Colossus entering really big.
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
Thoughts on what Green gets us/sideboard? I'm thinking potentially Duress in the board, but no real other ideas.
4x Collected Company
2x Languish
2x Ultimate Price
Creatures
2x Deathcap Cultivator
4x Fleshbag Marauder
3x Liliana, Heretical Healer
4x Nantuko Husk
4x Relentless Dead
3x Risen Executioner
4x Tireless Tracker
4x Diregraf Colossus
4x Evolving Wilds
3x Forest
4x Hissing Quagmire
4x Llanowar Wastes
9x Swamp
Go Pelakka Wurm!
Green gets you Clip Wings and Rabid Bite for removal, while also being the easiest color to set delirium up with, if you so choose
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
4 Relentless Dead
4 Prized Amalgam
3 Screeching Skaab
4 Diregraf Colossus
3 Nantuko Husk
3 Shambling Goblin
3 Geralf's Masterpiece
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
3 Fleshbag Marauder
2 Epiphany at the Drownyard
3 Grasp of Darkness
4 Sunken Hollow
4 Choked Estuary
3 Evolving Wilds
1 Rogue's Passage
9 Swamp
3 Island
Can you provide a link to the article please? Anyone think this deck is viable? I really want to play a Zombies deck but they all feel underpowered at the moment.
Personally, I feel it is a bit too heavy on the creature side (likely to abuse the Colossus). With all the discard effects I feel From Under the Floorboards would do really well. I've never been a fan of Ruinous Path and feel that Ultimate Price will serve much the same purpose at instant speed, To the Slaughter could also work, if you can hit delirium/keep their board clear. Liliana, Heretical Healer and Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet are both cards to consider as well.
Edit: With the Human decks and CoCo decks running around right now I think serious consideration should be given to Languish as a means to clear the board and allow us to establish the board in our favor with the recursion engines that are built into the Zombie tribe this time around.
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
And she wrote another article with a slightly different take:http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=13209&writer=Melissa DeTora&articledate=4-11-2016
I hope these work, I'm using my phone. Sorry for not using tags...
I would probably have Liliana instead of Jace, mainly because I can't afford multiple Jaces and Sidisi, Undead Vizier. Languish is a definite sideboard. I like a lot of counters so I'm also considering Mindwrack Demon and Thing in the Ice, although Westvale Abbey could be an option instead.
3 Shambling Goblin
3 Screeching Skaab
4 Relentless Dead
2 Nantuko Husk
3 Fleshbag Marauder
3 Diregraf Colossus
2 Risen Executioner
3 Geralf's Masterpiece
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
Planeswalker 2
2 Liliana, Heretical Healer
Enchantment 2
2 Corpseweft
2 Negate
2 Ultimate Price
2 Altar's Reap
1 Ruinous Path
1 Epiphany at the Drownyard
Land 24
4 Choked Estuary
4 Sunken Hollow
1 Rogue's Passage
7 Swamp
6 Island
2 Westvale Abbey
2 Naturalize
1 Ruinous Path
1 Ultimate Price
2 Languish
2 Infinite Obliteration
2 Dispel
1 Virulent Plague
2 Transgress the Mind
2 Duress
Where I'm wondering is if I want some Evolving Wilds in there. The idea is that it can just push and push and then drop a big Zombie Horror, or go in with the Masterpiece or Westvale/Ormendahl.
Edit: put in my order for this, went with Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet instead of Liliana. It will stay relevant for longer in the format, the lifelink helps and the zombies can pump up both Kalitas and the Nantukos.
There are a ton of cards that dump stuff in the graveyard: Mindwrack Demon, Corpse Churn, Gather the Pack, Kiora, Origins Jace, Oath of Jace, Vessel of Nascency, Autumnal Gloom, Crawling Sensation, ... How competitive they are is open for question. As I understand it, Wizards wants to support every archetype, but some archetypes are better than others.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
What I found so far:
- Languish has been awesome, especially with all the humans around, and we get more value from cards in our graveyards than they do
- Plainswalker removal is essential now that Sorin is in the mix. Both chandra and sorin can kill your creatures before they get to attack
- Relentless dead is awesome, so is diregraf colossus, he usually ends up at least a 5/5 for 3 cmc most of the time
- Shambling goblin easily 2-for-1s most human decks, especially in the early game. Using it to sacrifice to flesh bag is amazing.
- Fleshbag is awesome, nobody expects it, it gets by Reality Smasher's secondary pretty well
4 Shambling Goblin
4 Relentless Dead
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Diregraf Colossus
4 Fleshbag Marauder
2 Liliana, Heretical Healer
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4 Risen Executioner
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
3 Duress
3 Ruinous Path
2 Languish
[Lands]
20 Swamp
2 Westvale Abbey
1 Blighted Fen
1 Duress
3 Self-Inflicted Wound
1 Ultimate Price
1 Damnable Pact
1 Liliana, Heretical Healer
2 Tainted Remedy
2 Virulent Plague
2 Languish
1 From Under the Floorboards
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
Still tweaking it. Does awesome against creature decks, though can be kind of slow some games. I am gonna explore other color options I think
Edit: apparently yes, is the answer, I asked on the rules forum: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/689943-languish-relentless-dead-diregraf-colossus. That makes for some interesting synergies with Diregraf.
Also, what's your sideboard strategy for Tainted Remedy? Is lifegain an issue in your meta?
This is my mono-black , well almost mono black. I got one blue card in there and it is only in there for the ability to discard to activate madness.
I am playing around with throwing Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
4 Sunken Hollow
13 Swamp
4 Diregraf Colossus
4 Fleshbag Marauder
4 Foul-Tongue Shriek
2 From Under the Floorboards
2 Gisa's Bidding
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4 Liliana's Indignation
2 Rancid Rats
4 Relentless Dead
1 Risen Executioner
4 Shambling Goblin
2 Stitchwing Skaab
4 Voracious Null
Foul-Tongue Shriek...? Interesting...
4 Shambling Goblin
4 Screeching Skaab
4 Relentless Dead
2 Nantuko Husk
3 Fleshbag Marauder
3 Diregraf Colossus
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3 Risen Executioner
3 Geralf's Masterpiece
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
Enchantment 1
1 Corpseweft
2 Duress
2 Ultimate Price
2 Ruinous Path
1 Languish
Land 23
4 Choked Estuary
4 Sunken Hollow
1 Rogue's Passage
7 Swamp
3 Island
2 Westvale Abbey
2 Evolving Wilds
1 Ultimate Price
1 Grasp of Darkness
1 Languish
2 Infinite Obliteration
2 Dispel
1 Virulent Plague
2 Transgress the Mind
2 Negate
2 Disperse
1 Corpseweft
My list, pretty much as per above, but dropping the two Husks and going four-of on the Fleshbags and Diregrafs, didn't do too well at game day. Rather unsurprisingly. A couple of games I either mana flooded or drew none, but it's the lack of finishers really that hurt. It falls to removal very easily as well, removing key components when you need them, and then wham, in comes Archangel Avacyn or a bunch of Reflector Mages.