UB has always been my color combination of choice and I like the way zombies look in this set. While they don't look quite as strong as Vampires, with all the madness related stuff they have going on, they still appear to be fun to play and there is a considerable amount of synergy between all of them. This is my take on a potential Zombie tribal deck for the new SOI standard. The big players here are Relentless Dead which is an incredibly powerful card that gets better with zombie support and Diregraf Colossus which is, at worst, a 2/2 token maker that grows considerable the later the game goes. From Under the Floorboards is the other main piece to this deck and there are ways to find it with Sidisi, Undead Vizier and Forgotten Creation along with various ways to trigger madness.
That said, I think Zombies are best in a reanimator style deck SSG posted a video yesterday for them. They killed the R/B Vamp list tho that deck was not well optimized at all IMO. Even tho the match up played naturally into the mid range deck's favor(who would have thought mid range beating aggro lol) the reanimator deck looked really good. Reanimated Atarka on Turn 5 is just insane.
I was considering making a zombie deck and was thinking that maybe Epiphany at the Drownyard would be good for card draw as often with the tribe we don't care if a copy or two of a zombie goes to the yard.
Thank you all for the suggestions. A couple questions.
1) Should I focus more on removal over discard to ensure the deck makes it to the mid-late game?
2) Should I include board wipes (Languish, Engulf the Shore, Biting Rain)?
I am adjusting the list based on your feedback right now and will post the updated one in a day or two.
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Currently Playing:
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
I think that Dimir Zombies is a deck thats about 1/3 Aggro, and 2/3 midrange.
Some of the great things about Zombies is the recursion engine it has and that you can do things like a Languish because you'll get all your creature back.
It does still need a little bit of reach in my opinion though, and for that I'd suggest Liliana's Indignation. It seems like a crappy card at first, and is without support. However, it goes great with Gravepurge, and *hopefully* at the point in the game you'd want to play it, you'll only need 4-5 damage to win, which is do-able off a T6 for X=5.
I've been toying with dimir zombies too, but at the end of the day there aren't enough good blue cards to make the dual-color worthwhile. I found a mono-black strategy to be more streamlined. Here's what I arrived at:
I've been toying with dimir zombies too, but at the end of the day there aren't enough good blue cards to make the dual-color worthwhile. I found a mono-black strategy to be more streamlined. Here's what I arrived at:
I've been toying with dimir zombies too, but at the end of the day there aren't enough good blue cards to make the dual-color worthwhile. I found a mono-black strategy to be more streamlined. Here's what I arrived at:
My one issue with Compelling Deterrence is the number of madness cards out there that can be discarded.
True, but thats sort of like the "you choose" cards like Browbeat its on your terms not them. Sure they'll pick the best discard option, and it may have madness, but its not necessarily when they want to use it.
Just a stupid question, but if we're playing blue anyway, wouldn't a couple of counters fit in, at least in the sideboard? Things like Scatter to the Winds, or good old Negate?
@RedKid43: I'd rather run Languish or Biting Rain than cram a third color in for a sweeping burn spell that hits everything. with one trigger of Kalitas's ability he puts himself out of range of Languish and Languish, while one mana more than flames, deals with more threats without putting undue stress on the mana base by cramming a third color in.
@NikToo7304: Blue is more the secondary color here, and I'd much rather play Diregraf Colossus on curve than hold up three mana for a counter spell. If the deck proves to need more of a control shell around it, then yes. As it is I feel there is more benefit in hand disruption over counters
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Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
Have you been able to playtest it much yet, and what is your current version. I usually like to throw in a few reach spells like Alms of the Vein (since you have ways to discard), but honestly I think the recursion engine probably has enough CA to push through without the reach, especially with your top end.
How do you see the current matchups going? I feel like with Lilly and Kalitas you should have enough lifegain to beat aggro pretty easily. As for slower control decks, whats your gameplan, just hand hate and recursion?
For wipes, I think I like Languish the best, with the recursion it doesnt hurt your guys too much, and like you said its probably the best of the three.
What about some card draw? You have the recursion, however that doesnt really get going that strongly until later I feel, and usually you should be pretty close to winning at that point. It will give you 1-2 creatures here or there earlier, but maybe some more draw fits nicely? Alter's Reap is a 2-drop which should fit nicely in your curve as you only have 1 2-drop to play on curve. Also instant speed so you can sac a dead guy that got blocked, or targeted by removal. The only other card draw I really like would be Epiphany at the Drownyard, but I dont really like that X cost as I feel it eats too much mana for a creature deck.
I have not had a chance to playtest this yet, though the first version I'm looking to play test is the one in the OP. You're right with the aggro match up, the life gain should mitigate any early damage taken. I think that this deck would do well against control, as it is not opposed to seeing cards in the graveyard (more zombies means a bigger Colossus) plus the recursion means threats are never truly gone (outside of being exiled). The big issue I see is midrange decks that can get going before this deck does and ramp, if that remains a playable deck.
I agree, more card draw is always nice and Altar's Reap looks great in this deck, and Languish is definitely the board wipe of choice (still was hoping for Damnation like card in this set). Epiphany, if run, would be best going off at the end of the opponent's turn to dump any leftover mana into. The real question is what to remove for these spells, if they are to be included?
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Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
Again, I think the strongest part of this deck is probably the recursion package with it, therefore I think Bone Splinters is a great removal. Sure, its sorcery, but its only 1 mana. If you really needed the instant speed, I think Grasp of Darkness is the best on creatures, with Disperse being best all around(it gets rid of planeswalkers and more).
You're really looking to finish the game decently quickly, I'd guess by T7-ish at least, so bounce effects shouldn't really bother you that much, and -4/-4 at instant speed should be enough to take care of anything you really NEED to take care of, the rest just play around.
The biggest thing with this deck is knowing when to be the aggro, and when to be more mid-range. Theres an amazing article I read on it a while back about knowing your decks "role" in the match, basically going over a few things and highlighting that if you play a WG deck, you'll probably want to be the more "control/mid-range" deck of the match against a RDW, and maybe the more "Aggro" deck against something like GR ramp.
I honestly think that this deck fits really nicely into the Aggro -> Midrange slider bar (as I imagine in my head), it goes over all the other aggros, with enough lifegain to do it, and is still probably fast enough to go under most Mid-Range.
I've been playing this deck. The issue i see is the ability to throw tokens and chump blockers in front to easily deter us and then drop a bomb we can't get around. The recursion isn't as good as you may think and the prized almagan is just lousy. compelling deterrence may be a good fit. Fleshbag marauder and lily will always be the go to cards along with the shambling gobby. are there any equipment cards that would fit in this? something to let us go wide a lil
Also, I feel Catalog is a much better fit than Alter's reap I can toss executioner or algaman or under the floor or masterpiece and still have value that alters reap doesn't. The only beneficial card in the deck that is worth tossing to reap is relentless dead. A card that WILL find an exile or 4.
I went ahead and made a red version of this also. Instead of catalog, i'm just using alter reap. Added Kolaghan's command and fiery impulse. Also was thinking of thunderbreak. not sure tho. the U/B tends to play exactly like the R/B so....may try green also. A rock zombie might work with things that recur grave and feed it.
That being said....I'm trouncing people with this deck. F' vampires; the zombies are way stronger. Shambling Goblin is a darn all star. He hoses red and humans pretty well. More targeted removal would be good tho. Tireless tracker can become an issue.
I don't see a reason not to play mono-black. I keep trying to add other colours for various reasons into the mix.
1. More burn/removal - add red. We can get removal that is as good if not better in black, I don't care about going to the dome with burn.
2. More card draw/filtering. There's a lot of ways to do this now, clue generation in green or white, card draw in blue. Black has read the bones and zombies have corpse churn. As long as we have our GY, then we have ways to keep card advantage.
3. More control. Aside from dispel, black has all the control cards.
I don't see a reason not to play mono-black. I keep trying to add other colours for various reasons into the mix.
1. More burn/removal - add red. We can get removal that is as good if not better in black, I don't care about going to the dome with burn.
2. More card draw/filtering. There's a lot of ways to do this now, clue generation in green or white, card draw in blue. Black has read the bones and zombies have corpse churn. As long as we have our GY, then we have ways to keep card advantage.
3. More control. Aside from dispel, black has all the control cards.
Could you please post your list, so we can see the direction you went? most of the good Zombie based cards are in black, yes, but without blue you lose out on the power of Geralf's Masterpiece along with other discard outlets and card draw in cards like Forgotten Creation and Catalog. Blue also enables a more control-based shell due counters and bounce spell. There are more control spells in blue than Dispel. Overwhelming Denial comes to mind, along with Compelling Deterrence and Engulf the Shore. There are also bothforms of Jace and Rise from the Tides if you go a more control route.
Edit: Going the removal route it makes more sense to add white in over red. Anguished Unmaking is great because there are numerous ways this deck can get life back including Shambling Vent which would be available to us in white. Sorin, Grim Nemesis Is a decent curve topper and provides us addition draw. You can also run Swift Reckoning and Silkwrap to control the board early, if needed.
- stay low to the ground: you want to recur and cast as many creatures as possible, which requires lower mana costs on all creature cards. Casting low cost zombie creatures adds value to Diregraf Colossus, and to Relentless Dead because you will be able to recur them for cheap.
- keep your opponent trading unfavourably. You want them to put blockers in front of Husk with Relentless Dead on the board and open mana. You want them to attack when you have open mana and Relentless Dead on the board. As long as you have something that can threaten them in your GY, you have the upper hand, but that only works if you have open mana.
- generate advantage through casting creature and removal spells. Kalitas is already winning games by board stalling and creating an army through removal spells, he does the same thing here. Diregraf Colossus wins games by doing the same thing, but through creature casts.
- get a sacrifice outlet up as fast as possible to keep opponents from being able to exile
- if you have Relentless Dead on the board, protect it through sacrifice+recurring it to you hand. This means open mana.
So the problem is always open mana. Both Geralf's Masterpiece and Forgotten Creation are too expensive to keep mana open. In play testing 4 drops usually aren't played til I have 6 mana, unless I know my opponent has no interaction.
If you are playing Liliana, then you have to realize that putting cards in your hand is the same as putting cards in your GY, so why put them in your hand at all? Put them in the GY and don't let your opponent interact with them (better for Colossus). Counter spells are similar to hand hate spells (Duress, Transgress, Pick the Brain) except that you play them earlier and they provide a lot more information to you. Additionally you don't want to counter your opponents creatures spells, you want to kill them once they are on the board to fuel Kalitas. Countering instants and sorceries and probably enchantments would be useful, but again not game breaking due to hand hate.
Blue cards that fit the mold for zombies:
- cheap counter spells.
- cheap synergistic creatures (Jace, VP would be great, but we keep pulling cards out of our GY so it's harder to amass 5 cards in the GY, I would love to play him though). Anything above 2CMC has to have an amazing interaction with zero downside (prize amalgam, stitched mangler both garbage in comparison to husk, fleshbag, colossus).
- did I mention cheap!
of the cards you mentioned I've considered:
- Compelling Deterence - decent tempo card, nice and cheap. Playable.
- Forgotten Creation - possible, but would only be a 1-2 of and given that I'm playing apt to play 12-16 spells, the effect doesn't seem that worthwhile.
- Geralf's Masterpiece - too expensive, can't play a defensive deck that needs open mana with this card, it would be a T7 play, which defeats the purpose.
- Catalog/Pore over Pages/Pieces of the Puzzle - 2 cards for 3 mana, decent plays, Read the Bones is better, Macabre Waltz is cheaper.
- Dispel/Negate etc.: I would rather play Duress, Transgress, Pick the Brain main board because they give me information. My reactive plays involve the sac/recur from the GY.
The only color I am considering is white, which appears to be one of the more powerful removal suites in this expansion.
I've been playing this deck. The issue i see is the ability to throw tokens and chump blockers in front to easily deter us and then drop a bomb we can't get around. The recursion isn't as good as you may think and the prized almagan is just lousy. compelling deterrence may be a good fit. Fleshbag marauder and lily will always be the go to cards along with the shambling gobby. are there any equipment cards that would fit in this? something to let us go wide a lil
Also, I feel Catalog is a much better fit than Alter's reap I can toss executioner or algaman or under the floor or masterpiece and still have value that alters reap doesn't. The only beneficial card in the deck that is worth tossing to reap is relentless dead. A card that WILL find an exile or 4.
Part of the reason I went with Altar'a Reap was because of the cost. Part of it was because of the downside, I still think Altar's is a bit better even without recursion, but not as strong as I thought. However it plays nice with what I mention below.
I guess I can see that the recursion isnt super strong, but it seems pretty good on paper. I guess Relentless Dead eats too much hate to keep the engine going. That being said, I can see prized almagan not being the best without help. In that case, I'd say we try to go one of two routes, possibly try some more recursion (instead of into hand, directly onto battlefield), I think there is a 3 drop like that not sure off top though, might be 4. Or we could drop the prized almagan, but I like it in there, its a big beater.
Another question I have is, how close to killing them are you getting before you get stumped usually? The reason I ask is because UB has some decent reach cards. If you just need another hit, Slip through Space may work, and it cantrips. Another possibility is Alms of the Vein, which we have a few madness outlets here. Finally, we can try something that I've wanted to for a while with Liliana's Indignation. Though that may need some help working around, but I think the creature count is high enough to do work, especially if we pick Gravepurge over Macabre Waltz.
I went ahead and made a red version of this also. Instead of catalog, i'm just using alter reap. Added Kolaghan's command and fiery impulse. Also was thinking of thunderbreak. not sure tho. the U/B tends to play exactly like the R/B so....may try green also. A rock zombie might work with things that recur grave and feed it.
That being said....I'm trouncing people with this deck. F' vampires; the zombies are way stronger. Shambling Goblin is a darn all star. He hoses red and humans pretty well. More targeted removal would be good tho. Tireless tracker can become an issue.
Maybe since we dont have as much recursion as we thought originally we can cut languish and replace with more targeted removal?
Also, can you post your BR Zombie deck?
I don't see a reason not to play mono-black. I keep trying to add other colours for various reasons into the mix.
1. More burn/removal - add red. We can get removal that is as good if not better in black, I don't care about going to the dome with burn.
2. More card draw/filtering. There's a lot of ways to do this now, clue generation in green or white, card draw in blue. Black has read the bones and zombies have corpse churn. As long as we have our GY, then we have ways to keep card advantage.
3. More control. Aside from dispel, black has all the control cards.
You may very well be right, but I personally like the UB just for all the flexibility with it. We just need more testing to see. Can you post some of your lists from other colors?
I think if I were to add different second color it would be white, and am currently looking to possibly toying with W/B Zombies. Will post a potential list if I make one I like.
EDIT: Added a preliminary W/B Zombie deck to the main post. It has a reduced creature count but trades it for some more removal
4 Shambling Goblin
4 Relentless Dead
4 Diregraf Colossus
4 Fleshbag Marauder
2 Liliana, Heretical Healer
2 Forgotten Creation
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Geralf's Masterpiece
Instants (6):
2 Grasp of Darkness
2 Ultimate Price
2 Catalog
2 Macabre Waltz
2 Languish
3 From Under the Floorboards
Lands (23):
4 Choked Estuary
4 Island
4 Sunken Hollow
11 Swamp
2 Duress
2 Altar's Reap
2 Grasp of Darkness
2 Macabre Waltz
2 Transgress the Mind
2 Prized Amalgam
1 From Under the Floorboards
2 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
UB has always been my color combination of choice and I like the way zombies look in this set. While they don't look quite as strong as Vampires, with all the madness related stuff they have going on, they still appear to be fun to play and there is a considerable amount of synergy between all of them. This is my take on a potential Zombie tribal deck for the new SOI standard. The big players here are Relentless Dead which is an incredibly powerful card that gets better with zombie support and Diregraf Colossus which is, at worst, a 2/2 token maker that grows considerable the later the game goes. From Under the Floorboards is the other main piece to this deck and there are ways to find it with Sidisi, Undead Vizier and Forgotten Creation along with various ways to trigger madness.
16 Swamp
4 Shambling Vent
2 Westvale Abbey
1-CMC (8)
4 Shambling Goblin
4 Duress
2-CMC (10)
4 Transgress the Mind
4 Relentless Dead
2 Altar's Reap
4 Diregraf Colossus
4 Fleshbag Marauder
4 Nantuko Husk
4-CMC (4)
4 Risen Executioner
5-CMC (4)
2 Ob Nixilis Reignited
2 Deadly Wanderings
4 Sinister Concoction
2 Liliana, Heretical Healer
2 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
2 To the Slaughter
2 Pick the Brain
2 Languish
1 Altar's Reap
4 Shambling Goblin
4 Relentless Dead
2 Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
4 Diregraf Colossus
4 Fleshbag Marauder
2 Liliana, Heretical Healer
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
Instants (7):
2 Grasp of Darkness
2 Ultimate Price
3 Anguished Unmaking
2 Declaration in Stone
2 Macabre Waltz
2 From Under the Floorboards
Planewalkers (2):
2 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Lands (23):
4 Caves of Kolios
4 Plains
3 Shambling Vent
11 Swamp
3 Duress
2 Altar's Reap
2 Languish
2 Grasp of Darkness
2 Macabre Waltz
2 Transgress the Mind
2 Always Watching
EDIT: Changed thread title to B/x Zombies and will be using the main post to catalog the various zombie deck ideas people bring to light.
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
also priest of the blood rite would be cool off of liliana's -x
Priest could make its way to the graveyard from liliana's +2 discard, macabre waltz, or sinister concoction
C Long Live Eldrazi C
Any zombie deck needs kalitas and Liliana IMO. Also, I think Zombies are begging to be in a Sac deck, which I had posted here. It's also B/W: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/deck-creation-standard/681149-b-w-aristocrats
That said, I think Zombies are best in a reanimator style deck SSG posted a video yesterday for them. They killed the R/B Vamp list tho that deck was not well optimized at all IMO. Even tho the match up played naturally into the mid range deck's favor(who would have thought mid range beating aggro lol) the reanimator deck looked really good. Reanimated Atarka on Turn 5 is just insane.
1) Should I focus more on removal over discard to ensure the deck makes it to the mid-late game?
2) Should I include board wipes (Languish, Engulf the Shore, Biting Rain)?
I am adjusting the list based on your feedback right now and will post the updated one in a day or two.
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
Some of the great things about Zombies is the recursion engine it has and that you can do things like a Languish because you'll get all your creature back.
It does still need a little bit of reach in my opinion though, and for that I'd suggest Liliana's Indignation. It seems like a crappy card at first, and is without support. However, it goes great with Gravepurge, and *hopefully* at the point in the game you'd want to play it, you'll only need 4-5 damage to win, which is do-able off a T6 for X=5.
16 Swamp
4 Shambling Vent
2 Westvale Abbey
1-CMC (8)
4 Shambling Goblin
4 Duress
2-CMC (10)
4 Transgress the Mind
4 Relentless Dead
2 Altar's Reap
4 Diregraf Colossus
4 Fleshbag Marauder
4 Nantuko Husk
4-CMC (4)
4 Risen Executioner
5-CMC (4)
2 Ob Nixilis Reignited
2 Deadly Wanderings
4 Sinister Concoction
2 Liliana, Heretical Healer
2 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
2 To the Slaughter
2 Pick the Brain
2 Languish
1 Altar's Reap
I think Prized Amalgam, Geralf's Masterpiece, maybe Forgotten Creation, Compelling Deterrence, and possibly Slip through Space or other tricks like that are plenty of reason for blue. Especially if you're keeping to the tribal.
My one issue with Compelling Deterrence is the number of madness cards out there that can be discarded.
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
True, but thats sort of like the "you choose" cards like Browbeat its on your terms not them. Sure they'll pick the best discard option, and it may have madness, but its not necessarily when they want to use it.
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
@NikToo7304: Blue is more the secondary color here, and I'd much rather play Diregraf Colossus on curve than hold up three mana for a counter spell. If the deck proves to need more of a control shell around it, then yes. As it is I feel there is more benefit in hand disruption over counters
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
Have you been able to playtest it much yet, and what is your current version. I usually like to throw in a few reach spells like Alms of the Vein (since you have ways to discard), but honestly I think the recursion engine probably has enough CA to push through without the reach, especially with your top end.
How do you see the current matchups going? I feel like with Lilly and Kalitas you should have enough lifegain to beat aggro pretty easily. As for slower control decks, whats your gameplan, just hand hate and recursion?
For wipes, I think I like Languish the best, with the recursion it doesnt hurt your guys too much, and like you said its probably the best of the three.
What about some card draw? You have the recursion, however that doesnt really get going that strongly until later I feel, and usually you should be pretty close to winning at that point. It will give you 1-2 creatures here or there earlier, but maybe some more draw fits nicely? Alter's Reap is a 2-drop which should fit nicely in your curve as you only have 1 2-drop to play on curve. Also instant speed so you can sac a dead guy that got blocked, or targeted by removal. The only other card draw I really like would be Epiphany at the Drownyard, but I dont really like that X cost as I feel it eats too much mana for a creature deck.
I agree, more card draw is always nice and Altar's Reap looks great in this deck, and Languish is definitely the board wipe of choice (still was hoping for Damnation like card in this set). Epiphany, if run, would be best going off at the end of the opponent's turn to dump any leftover mana into. The real question is what to remove for these spells, if they are to be included?
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
You're really looking to finish the game decently quickly, I'd guess by T7-ish at least, so bounce effects shouldn't really bother you that much, and -4/-4 at instant speed should be enough to take care of anything you really NEED to take care of, the rest just play around.
The biggest thing with this deck is knowing when to be the aggro, and when to be more mid-range. Theres an amazing article I read on it a while back about knowing your decks "role" in the match, basically going over a few things and highlighting that if you play a WG deck, you'll probably want to be the more "control/mid-range" deck of the match against a RDW, and maybe the more "Aggro" deck against something like GR ramp.
I honestly think that this deck fits really nicely into the Aggro -> Midrange slider bar (as I imagine in my head), it goes over all the other aggros, with enough lifegain to do it, and is still probably fast enough to go under most Mid-Range.
Also, I feel Catalog is a much better fit than Alter's reap I can toss executioner or algaman or under the floor or masterpiece and still have value that alters reap doesn't. The only beneficial card in the deck that is worth tossing to reap is relentless dead. A card that WILL find an exile or 4.
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
I went ahead and made a red version of this also. Instead of catalog, i'm just using alter reap. Added Kolaghan's command and fiery impulse. Also was thinking of thunderbreak. not sure tho. the U/B tends to play exactly like the R/B so....may try green also. A rock zombie might work with things that recur grave and feed it.
That being said....I'm trouncing people with this deck. F' vampires; the zombies are way stronger. Shambling Goblin is a darn all star. He hoses red and humans pretty well. More targeted removal would be good tho. Tireless tracker can become an issue.
1. More burn/removal - add red. We can get removal that is as good if not better in black, I don't care about going to the dome with burn.
2. More card draw/filtering. There's a lot of ways to do this now, clue generation in green or white, card draw in blue. Black has read the bones and zombies have corpse churn. As long as we have our GY, then we have ways to keep card advantage.
3. More control. Aside from dispel, black has all the control cards.
Could you please post your list, so we can see the direction you went? most of the good Zombie based cards are in black, yes, but without blue you lose out on the power of Geralf's Masterpiece along with other discard outlets and card draw in cards like Forgotten Creation and Catalog. Blue also enables a more control-based shell due counters and bounce spell. There are more control spells in blue than Dispel. Overwhelming Denial comes to mind, along with Compelling Deterrence and Engulf the Shore. There are also both forms of Jace and Rise from the Tides if you go a more control route.
Edit: Going the removal route it makes more sense to add white in over red. Anguished Unmaking is great because there are numerous ways this deck can get life back including Shambling Vent which would be available to us in white. Sorin, Grim Nemesis Is a decent curve topper and provides us addition draw. You can also run Swift Reckoning and Silkwrap to control the board early, if needed.
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
I'll first state what I think the purpose of the zombies deck is, then I'll explain why I don't think blue works.
The general Relentless Dead (recur) and Diregraf Colossus / Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet (generate) deck is purpose driven in that it wants to:
- stay low to the ground: you want to recur and cast as many creatures as possible, which requires lower mana costs on all creature cards. Casting low cost zombie creatures adds value to Diregraf Colossus, and to Relentless Dead because you will be able to recur them for cheap.
- keep your opponent trading unfavourably. You want them to put blockers in front of Husk with Relentless Dead on the board and open mana. You want them to attack when you have open mana and Relentless Dead on the board. As long as you have something that can threaten them in your GY, you have the upper hand, but that only works if you have open mana.
- generate advantage through casting creature and removal spells. Kalitas is already winning games by board stalling and creating an army through removal spells, he does the same thing here. Diregraf Colossus wins games by doing the same thing, but through creature casts.
- get a sacrifice outlet up as fast as possible to keep opponents from being able to exile
- if you have Relentless Dead on the board, protect it through sacrifice+recurring it to you hand. This means open mana.
So the problem is always open mana. Both Geralf's Masterpiece and Forgotten Creation are too expensive to keep mana open. In play testing 4 drops usually aren't played til I have 6 mana, unless I know my opponent has no interaction.
If you are playing Liliana, then you have to realize that putting cards in your hand is the same as putting cards in your GY, so why put them in your hand at all? Put them in the GY and don't let your opponent interact with them (better for Colossus). Counter spells are similar to hand hate spells (Duress, Transgress, Pick the Brain) except that you play them earlier and they provide a lot more information to you. Additionally you don't want to counter your opponents creatures spells, you want to kill them once they are on the board to fuel Kalitas. Countering instants and sorceries and probably enchantments would be useful, but again not game breaking due to hand hate.
Blue cards that fit the mold for zombies:
- cheap counter spells.
- cheap synergistic creatures (Jace, VP would be great, but we keep pulling cards out of our GY so it's harder to amass 5 cards in the GY, I would love to play him though). Anything above 2CMC has to have an amazing interaction with zero downside (prize amalgam, stitched mangler both garbage in comparison to husk, fleshbag, colossus).
- did I mention cheap!
of the cards you mentioned I've considered:
- Compelling Deterence - decent tempo card, nice and cheap. Playable.
- Forgotten Creation - possible, but would only be a 1-2 of and given that I'm playing apt to play 12-16 spells, the effect doesn't seem that worthwhile.
- Geralf's Masterpiece - too expensive, can't play a defensive deck that needs open mana with this card, it would be a T7 play, which defeats the purpose.
- Catalog/Pore over Pages/Pieces of the Puzzle - 2 cards for 3 mana, decent plays, Read the Bones is better, Macabre Waltz is cheaper.
- Dispel/Negate etc.: I would rather play Duress, Transgress, Pick the Brain main board because they give me information. My reactive plays involve the sac/recur from the GY.
The only color I am considering is white, which appears to be one of the more powerful removal suites in this expansion.
Part of the reason I went with Altar'a Reap was because of the cost. Part of it was because of the downside, I still think Altar's is a bit better even without recursion, but not as strong as I thought. However it plays nice with what I mention below.
I guess I can see that the recursion isnt super strong, but it seems pretty good on paper. I guess Relentless Dead eats too much hate to keep the engine going. That being said, I can see prized almagan not being the best without help. In that case, I'd say we try to go one of two routes, possibly try some more recursion (instead of into hand, directly onto battlefield), I think there is a 3 drop like that not sure off top though, might be 4. Or we could drop the prized almagan, but I like it in there, its a big beater.
Another question I have is, how close to killing them are you getting before you get stumped usually? The reason I ask is because UB has some decent reach cards. If you just need another hit, Slip through Space may work, and it cantrips. Another possibility is Alms of the Vein, which we have a few madness outlets here. Finally, we can try something that I've wanted to for a while with Liliana's Indignation. Though that may need some help working around, but I think the creature count is high enough to do work, especially if we pick Gravepurge over Macabre Waltz.
Maybe since we dont have as much recursion as we thought originally we can cut languish and replace with more targeted removal?
Also, can you post your BR Zombie deck?
You may very well be right, but I personally like the UB just for all the flexibility with it. We just need more testing to see. Can you post some of your lists from other colors?
EDIT: Added a preliminary W/B Zombie deck to the main post. It has a reduced creature count but trades it for some more removal
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans