Well, here we are with the entire set for Shadows over Innistrad spoiled. Most of this is more or less copied over from the thread in Standard New Card Discussion (located here), but for the purposes of reaching a larger audience, I'll go ahead and post this here. This post may end up being the start of a primer at some point if the deck turns out to be any good and enough people want it.
Naya Superfriends: What is it, and why should I consider it?
Naya Superfriends is a deck based off of jamming multiple Planeswalkers to create a cohesive, synergistic engine able to grind out victories.
The particular build I will present as a starting point is based in GW, splashing R lightly. This hopefully allows us to create a manabase that will consistently come into play untapped, allowing us to play our Planeswalkers at the times that they are most effective - on curve.
The planeswalkers that serve as the engine of the deck are Nissa, Voice of Zendikar, Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, and Arlinn Kord. The deck is base GW, splashing R for Arlinn Kord. I wanted to refrain from going too far into red as it jeopardizes our mana situation, which is still pretty unclear as to how its going to pan out with the new lands. Especially due to the early weeks of rotation trending towards aggro decks and decks that have way too many things going on - we want to avoid being in a position where we lose to our own deck, rather than our opponent's.
The "dream" of the deck revolves around curving from Nissa into either Arlinn or Gideon. Each planeswalker has the ability to defend itself by producing tokens, and getting into a position where we are able to untap with multiple walkers is something that should be very hard for our opponent to deal with.
The gameplan is one that I'm still trying to work out. I feel that we can go two ways, each one significantly impacting the feel of the deck.
I think that the best plan is probably a more controlling approach, letting our walkers do the work for us to win the game. This deck should have a good amount of inevitability against most aggressive decks, and we can shift our plan via sideboard to combat control.
Here is where I am at now in terms of the decklist:
Kevinsera is right, that's going to get run over by aggro. I've been looking at the same kind of deck but I think it needs to be far heavier on removal and board wipes than what you posted. Here's what I came up with earlier this week:
I think running a couple Avacyns and a Linvala in a deck without any other creature threats probably means they're just going to eat removal right away since your opponent isn't going to have anything else to use it on so I'm ditching creature threats entirely to just focus on keeping the board clear instead.
I think just jamming planeswalkers isn't ideal. I think you want to make a approach that is a midrange good stuff deck where the planeswalkers are the main wincon but have cards that can supplement them and defend them as well as your life total early.
I made a tokens list in naya but it gets hosed really easily so I think this is a right approach but maybe need to go another route. Instead of gw I think you might need to look more for a rw core with the green as a splash. As the other guys have said nissa doesn't do much for your deck as she works better in token builds or aggressive builds more so than walkers.
So I slapped something together that could maybe be more competitive especially in the early stages of the format where everyone leans toward.aggro.
A Super Friends deck that plays red and leaves out Chandra, Flamecaller is not where I want to be. She is the second most powerful card in the format imo and a much better finisher then Avacyn or Dromoka.
A Super Friends deck that plays red and leaves out Chandra, Flamecaller is not where I want to be. She is the second most powerful card in the format imo and a much better finisher then Avacyn or Dromoka.
You're right, I like that more than Descend Upon the Sinful in my list.
Dropped the number of planeswalkers and wipes, added Sylvan Advocates and an Emeria Shepherd. The Emeria Shepherd is there to give Nahiri's ultimate a target, but I'm not sure if that's the best target. This build has been doing well against some SOI midrange brews so far.
I was wondering if it was too weak to aggro - is the best way to combat that weakness more creatures to contest the board or more removal? By devoting slots to one, we (obviously) can't use those slots for the other, so I was wondering what your guys' thoughts/rationale behind those thoughts were. Also, how much do we add before we're at a point where we don't get run over by aggro? Along with the next point - I was thinking 4 Declaration in Stone and 4 Radiant Flames was enough to combat aggro decks. The thing to keep in mind is that while we would like to just completely neutralize all the threats that aggro throws at us, we're really in the business of buying time for us to set up our engine.
I didn't see Radiant Flames before - it seems like a good way to stop most aggro decks - provided we can actually hit all 3 colors on turn 3 consistently.
I'm not sure how I feel about the other sweepers - they seem a bit too expensive, and I feel like I'd rather just be playing my own threats at that point.
I like the point about Chandra, Flamecaller. We could use her as a finisher - although the Nahiri creature package has kinda grown on me.
The Emeria Shepherd is there to give Nahiri's ultimate a target, but I'm not sure if that's the best target. This build has been doing well against some SOI midrange brews so far.
My thoughts on Emeria Shephard was that it was just a bit too risky - by the time you either cast her or get her out with Nahiri ult, you've probably gone through a lot of your lands. She's really good against control, but so is Dragonlord Dromoka or Chandra, Flamecaller, both of which dodge more removal. Against aggro, I'd rather have Linvala, the Preserver.
One thing that I do want to stress is the importance of the ability for us to actually cast our cards, when we want to cast them. I'm going to use Declaration in Stone, Nissa, Voice of Zendikar, and Pia and Kiran Nalaar or Thunderbreak Regent as examples. Hitting those on curve with any degree of consistency is going to be tough. This is one of the reasons why I made the suggestion in the original post to stick with a base GW deck, splashing R relatively lightly.
On the point of removal: I think that if we are considering 2-mana removal, we should be playing 4 Declaration in Stone before moving onto other options. Its poised to be the best removal in the format going forward - akin to a Path to Exile type removal spell. It isn't a 1-for-1 or card advantage (unless you hit multiples), but it is by far the most efficient card disadvantage we're going to see. The clue shouldn't be an issue - if they're paying 2 mana for the clue, they aren't paying 2 mana to kill us or our walkers.
Test it and see what happens. That's what I've been doing and my list has been giving me good results so far. I'm considering a few changes at the moment, mainly to drop Nahiri to 2 copies to add a 3rd Oath of Gideon back in. She's been great so far, but she's also by far the weakest planeswalker to play alone. The Planar Outbursts have definitely been doing good work for me so far as well. It's one of the best ways to take advantage of using all these planeswalkers, wipe their board but keep the important parts of your own and then start dropping tokens again.
if you can reliably get double white early , knight of the white orchid can search out canopy visit and goes well with the boosting abilities of the walkers you are using
if you can reliably get double white early , knight of the white orchid can search out canopy visit and goes well with the boosting abilities of the walkers you are using
but its search ability is only any good if you're on the draw or you're behind on land, which in this deck you don't want to be.
so at minimum 50% of the time it will be good on T2,if you are able to double white with regularity. You are playing a 6 mana p/w so odds are will be useful also around t4 if you miss a land draw. A pumped up knight is also just good defense for your walkers. With the number of tap lands in this deck being able to search out a vista and and have access to 4 untapped lands on t3 or 4 I see as a relevant upside.
Also after playing with 4 oath of nissa in my ramp deck this season I think 26 lands is to many for this mana curve. After playing with oath it is also often better as not a t1 play unless you are searching for mana fixing, with the number of tap lands in this mana base I can see it not being a t1 play a lot anyway. It is often just better to hold onto it and cast when you can drop a relevant threat found in the top 3.
The main reason is because the WW cost is pretty off-putting.
You're also probably also already playing 25-26 lands anyways, so its not like you're missing your land drops too often. I understand that Knight ramps you, but half the time its just a bear to chump with - which Visionary also does, but with the guaranteed card draw each time with a less restrictive cost.
The extra p/t doesn't really matter to me - I'd rather leverage my life total early as a resource to build up a board to chump blockers to land the Turn 3 Nissa. Having a Visionary and a plant to block should be enough to keep her alive, and playing Arlinn or Gideon next turn should be pretty hard to fight through.
Sure, Knight offers some additional trades that can be made, but I think that the drawbacks of the cost and the fact that the effect isn't guaranteed put me off enough to not play it.
Also, I've been thinking about Jaddi Offshoot mainboard. Good or bad idea?
I'm still not a fan of nissa in these lists. She is honestly ok but unless your doing tokens or aggro your not really playing her to her optimal Capacity. Sure she can defend your life total.early but not like advocate or Draconic roars or impulses could. All she can do really is road block one dude which isnt gonna cut it against atarka red or atarktokens. They'll just go wide and beat you down. Now sure you have radiant flames but I feel like your going to simple by just going jam 4 of this jace 4 of that.
Gideon is obviously a 4 of as he is probably the best early planeswalker you have. Arlinn kord needs to be a 2 or 3 of cause honestly most of the time your gonna play another Walker before you play her and they're gonna go for gideon or chandra before they go.for her which means her mutiples are way worse than multiples of others.
Also not a fan of the idea of jamming 4 of the oaths just to supplement your plan. Oath nissa is fine but I would only play 1 or 2 oath of gideon s and just play removal
A Walker deck is a control deck at its core. Which means you need removal and sweepers. I think maybe you need to play like 2 Radiant flames some cheap removal if your not gonna run dragons or other stuff so like impulse, roast, tears of valakut, clip wings maybe, declaration in stone just to name a few.
Trust me when I say walkers decks though fun are really hard to play and if your just jamming walkers all together it doesn't pan out to well most of the time.
The old jund walkers build had its main wincon in xenagos (gideon in your deck) then is used vraska as a 1-2 of to deal with permanents and creatures and could possibly win you a game (nahiri) then alot of them played Pyro master as a draw engine and some played garruk to kinda go over top (basically both of them are combined in chandra) then they just played removal to protect and some dudes that brought abit of versatility to the deck to give it other approaches.
Quarantine Field, works wonders against most decks. It is a life saver.
I've been poking around a few naya lists since the prerelease and I think the numbers are pretty good on the PW. Nahiri has been a ton of filtering for me after t5 and later with her + ability. I'm a bigger fan than I was originally.
I've seen the removal suite go a few different ways and it's changed the deck itself.
I've also seen the dragon lists running: draconic roar thunderbreak reagent dragonlord dromoka
I'm less of a fan of this build because your stuff is easier for your opponent to react to. Between the dragon reveals for dragon if roar and land reveals for the new lands, you can disclose quite a bit of information to your opponent early. Main deck removal is more live in this build too.
Of the 3 builds I think the dark dwellers list will be the best to bring early because outside of nahiri we don't have much advantage in errant in the colors outside of potentially clues.
Exquisite firecraft > Arlin kord > goblin darkdwellers seems like a very strong sequence. Especially when you can tick Arlin up on the darkdwellers and get in for 6 menace haste vigilance damage if you didn't flip her the turn before.
Reusing call the gatewatch off the goblins is tons of value. Dig early for your t4 giddeon/nahiri/Arlin and then seal the deal using your evasive 4/4 to tutor Chandra? Yes please. Of course that's magic Christmas land and assumes your opponent isp Laying quite a slow game. Still options are always good.
declaration in stone feels very strong, goblins ships it back in for a second go around. Unless my opponent is digging into PW answers I don't mind the extra cards it may give them. The deck has plenty of hate at the top end for multiple creatures.
Here's my base so far. Still tinkering with exact copy numbers, land, and sideboard.
I am curious to know how you do against aggro? I feel like my list is a lot more controlly, and yours is more midrange. Also how has Nissa been for you? I took her out, because she just didnt perform how I liked.
I am curious to know how you do against aggro? I feel like my list is a lot more controlly, and yours is more midrange. Also how has Nissa been for you? I took her out, because she just didnt perform how I liked.
Aggro isn't bad because of the sweepers the deck has access to. Aside from the legendary vampires the rest are fairly fragile in the toughness scale. I'd really like some life gain but the only synergistic card I can see adding is pulse of murasa from the side.
Maybe sylvan advocate to stall early and being able to get it back for late game swings with pulse would be a worth while hoop. Also pulse can grab a darkdwellers from the yard, so you can have your darkdwellers loop so to speak since they can give you a second pulse.
Nissa is slow, but reaching her ultimate is very doable. Outside of vamps there's not much haste running around and hallowed moonlight in the side can help make games 2-3 a breeze vs coco. So that gives lots of time to find a planar outburst or something if I need it.
The most annoying deck is probably a variant of that UB aristocrats build that was floating around for a bit. rogue's passage pushes damage through tokens nantuko husk can dodge damage based removal lilianna, heretical healer is freaking value town
It's just not very clean. I think angelic purge as a 1 of main or something like a 1-2 split will be required to respond to stuff like that.
I have been testing this deck against Aggro and Control.
Game 1 can be rough against Aggro unless you can get an early Sylvan Advocate then back it up with some planeswalkers.
Game 2 and 3 I'm bringing in Radiant Flames and Silkwrap.
Against control.
I like our Game 1 Matchup because we can flood the board over and over against their removal. Game 2 and 3 I am bringing in 3x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and 2 more Secure the Wastes.
People have been questioning Nissa, Voice of Zendikar and if it is good. I think it is a good 3 drop that you just can't be scared to lose. She is a utility card that you have to play differently depending on the board state. One of the main things I think it does is force them to deal with her which buys you turns to get to the real power house which is Chandra. She also can give you a lot a value from Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Thopter Engineer, and Hangarback Walker.
I am not sold on Oath of Gideon. I think it is a decent 3 drop against control but I find it lacking against agro. I might add another Angelic Purge It is such a great card in this deck.
So far I am liking the deck. B/W Control gives me a lot of issues but Gideon and Secure the Wastes even the playing field some in the second and third game. One deck that gives me trouble is the W/u Aggro deck. With many fast white creatures, Reflector mage, and Dragonlord Ojutai, on top of Always Watching. I find it hard to recover if I don't land Radiant Flames early. Especially once Ojutai and Always Watching comes out, I don't have an answer.
I want to make this deck work but I'm not sure I can make it consistent enough.
I have been testing this deck against Aggro and Control.
Game 1 can be rough against Aggro unless you can get an early Sylvan Advocate then back it up with some planeswalkers.
Game 2 and 3 I'm bringing in Radiant Flames and Silkwrap.
Against control.
I like our Game 1 Matchup because we can flood the board over and over against their removal. Game 2 and 3 I am bringing in 3x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and 2 more Secure the Wastes.
People have been questioning Nissa, Voice of Zendikar and if it is good. I think it is a good 3 drop that you just can't be scared to lose. She is a utility card that you have to play differently depending on the board state. One of the main things I think it does is force them to deal with her which buys you turns to get to the real power house which is Chandra. She also can give you a lot a value from Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Thopter Engineer, and Hangarback Walker.
I am not sold on Oath of Gideon. I think it is a decent 3 drop against control but I find it lacking against agro. I might add another Angelic Purge It is such a great card in this deck.
So far I am liking the deck. B/W Control gives me a lot of issues but Gideon and Secure the Wastes even the playing field some in the second and third game. One deck that gives me trouble is the W/u Aggro deck. With many fast white creatures, Reflector mage, and Dragonlord Ojutai, on top of Always Watching. I find it hard to recover if I don't land Radiant Flames early. Especially once Ojutai and Always Watching comes out, I don't have an answer.
I want to make this deck work but I'm not sure I can make it consistent enough.
I think planar outburst for things like the dragonlords is definately something we should be shooting for. If they tap out for ojutai just wipe the board and start from scratch with your walkers. Avacyn just being a card does make the board clear worse in a vacuum though. A 4/4 flash flier is still a good card regardless if she's saving anything and I think this is a big headache for the deck.
I agree with nissa being undervalued here. With a handful of early answers riding her to 7+ loyalty is achievable against a ton of decks, at which point they can fold to your life and card advantage as you string walkers together.
With no black for discard and blue for counters, how counter heavy do you think the meta will become? Thinking a greenwarden of murasa could do be good in case someone duresses and peels a much needed walker or two from your hand + pressure. I don't see many vamp lists with duress in the main but post board they have access to some good cards that are live against us.
I felt like BW would be a headache just because of anguished unmaking . The life loss isn't that huge against us and along with duress can leave us stranded at times.
I think RG werewolves / wolves will be an easy match up. Answers are good a cross the board for them and after t1 we can reliably cast quite a bit.
Anyone test vs grixis madness or sphinx's tutelage decks yet?
This is my current list. I would like to say that adding Avacyn was a brilliant move. It has allowed me to make some crazy plays due to it ability of having flash,vigilance and gives all my creatures indestructibility. The only deck I really struggle against is hand hate decks. Which in our colors there is nothing we can really do about that. Thankfully we still have draw or filtering in Oath of Nissa, Elvish Visionary, Nahiri, Chandra. So basically with 4 Radiant Flames and 4 Declaration mainboard I have no bad matchups
This is the version that I've been working on - it's a little more all-in on the token strategy to clog up the board early, and either go wide or sac to Westvale Abbey in the mid-late game. Sylvan Advocate is great value on turn two, otherwise it's usually just durdling around with vessel / oath fixing hand / mana
This sucks. I had my decklist all typed out. My detail of my first round and hit the wrong key on my keyboard before positing and lost it all. Ugh.
Anyway, I went 3-1 last night with a slightly different list. I had 8 planes walkers (2 of each above) and then one Nissa (origins) as a creature. I was playing two or three radiant flames (I need one or two more), but I felt that, that card was the all star all night. Anyway, the differences off the top of my head are:
4 Oath of Nissa
2 O o Chandra
2 O o Gideon
3 Fiery Temper
1 silk wrap
1 Dromoka's command
1 Secure the wastes
4 evolving wilds
2 plains
2 mountaiin
3 of each of the "dual lands" with the exception of needle spires (2x).
Round 1
Won the mirror 1-0-1. It went to time in game two after I won the first game.
Round 2
I lost to 4c Rites. I kept getting eldrazi displaced and reflector mageed and just generally never had any good draws or top decks.
0-2
Round 3
I am not sure what I played, but won in 3. It was red and colorless, the game I lost to was against Goblin Darkdwellers. He was able to keep me at one creature that game (DL Dromoka), but I couldn't block with it and he did back to back reality smashers for the win.
I don't remember one of the wins. The other one, I just had a superior board state with three or four PW. His comment was, "You know its bad when you don't feel good with two reality smashers in play and a third in your hand!"
2-1
Round 4
I played against GW humans. I played mono white humans for awhile and thought I would give this Naya SF deck a chance. Anyway, I pretty much knew how his deck played out. Make a long story short, I won in three. The game I did lose.....I lost the race as he got out too many humans and an always watching too fast and I had no real answers. I think radiant flames was the all-star in this match up.
2-1
Naya Superfriends: What is it, and why should I consider it?
Naya Superfriends is a deck based off of jamming multiple Planeswalkers to create a cohesive, synergistic engine able to grind out victories.
The particular build I will present as a starting point is based in GW, splashing R lightly. This hopefully allows us to create a manabase that will consistently come into play untapped, allowing us to play our Planeswalkers at the times that they are most effective - on curve.
The planeswalkers that serve as the engine of the deck are Nissa, Voice of Zendikar, Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, and Arlinn Kord. The deck is base GW, splashing R for Arlinn Kord. I wanted to refrain from going too far into red as it jeopardizes our mana situation, which is still pretty unclear as to how its going to pan out with the new lands. Especially due to the early weeks of rotation trending towards aggro decks and decks that have way too many things going on - we want to avoid being in a position where we lose to our own deck, rather than our opponent's.
The "dream" of the deck revolves around curving from Nissa into either Arlinn or Gideon. Each planeswalker has the ability to defend itself by producing tokens, and getting into a position where we are able to untap with multiple walkers is something that should be very hard for our opponent to deal with.
The gameplan is one that I'm still trying to work out. I feel that we can go two ways, each one significantly impacting the feel of the deck.
- We could go a more aggressive approach, playing cards like Sylvan Advocate, Deathmist Raptor and Den Protector.
- We could also go with a more controlling approach, prioritizing instead removal like Declaration in Stone and card draw like Elvish Visionary.
I think that the best plan is probably a more controlling approach, letting our walkers do the work for us to win the game. This deck should have a good amount of inevitability against most aggressive decks, and we can shift our plan via sideboard to combat control.Here is where I am at now in terms of the decklist:
4 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Arlinn Kord
2 Nahiri, the Harbinger
Enchantments (8)
4 Oath of Nissa
4 Oath of Gideon
Creatures (8)
4 Elvish Visionary
2 Archangel Avacyn
1 Linvala, the Preserver
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
4 Declaration in Stone
Land (26)
4 Canopy Vista
4 Fortified Village
4 Cinder Glade
2 Game Trail
2 Needle Spires
5 Forest
5 Plains
4 Jaddi Offshoot
4 Surge of Righteousness
2 Display of Dominance
2 Naturalize
1 Archangel Avacyn
1 Gaea's Revenge
1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
This is where I started, for reference:
4 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Arlinn Kord
Enchantments (8)
4 Oath of Nissa
4 Oath of Gideon
Creatures (11)
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Elvish Visionary
2 Archangel Avacyn
1 Linvala, the Preserver
4 Declaration in Stone
Land (25)
4 Canopy Vista
4 Fortified Village
4 Cinder Glade
2 Game Trail
2 Needle Spires
5 Forest
4 Plains
4 Jaddi Offshoot
4 Surge of Righteousness
2 Display of Dominance
2 Naturalize
2 Gaea's Revenge
1 Emeria Shepherd
Let me know what you think.
Modern: U Living End
Standard: UW Approach of the Second Sun
4 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Arlinn Kord
3 Nahiri, the Harbinger
4 Oath of Nissa
3 Oath of Gideon
Wipes/removal (13)
4 Declaration in Stone
4 Planar Outburst
3 Radiant Flames
2 Descend upon the Sinful
I think running a couple Avacyns and a Linvala in a deck without any other creature threats probably means they're just going to eat removal right away since your opponent isn't going to have anything else to use it on so I'm ditching creature threats entirely to just focus on keeping the board clear instead.
I made a tokens list in naya but it gets hosed really easily so I think this is a right approach but maybe need to go another route. Instead of gw I think you might need to look more for a rw core with the green as a splash. As the other guys have said nissa doesn't do much for your deck as she works better in token builds or aggressive builds more so than walkers.
So I slapped something together that could maybe be more competitive especially in the early stages of the format where everyone leans toward.aggro.
4 Den Protector
4 Thunderbreak Reagent
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
4 Draconic Roar
2 Dromoka's Command
3 Secure the Wastes
1 Quarantine Field
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Arlinn Kord
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
4 Fortified Village
4 Game Trail
2 Canopy Vista
3 Cinder Glade
4 Needle Spires
3 Battlefield forge
1 Westvale Abbey
1 Forest
2 Plains
2 Mountain
You're right, I like that more than Descend Upon the Sinful in my list.
4 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3 Arlinn Kord
3 Nahiri, the Harbinger
2 Chandra, Flamecaller
4 Oath of Nissa
2 Oath of Gideon
Wipes/removal (9)
4 Declaration in Stone
3 Planar Outburst
2 Radiant Flames
4 Sylvan Advocate
1 Emeria Shepherd
Dropped the number of planeswalkers and wipes, added Sylvan Advocates and an Emeria Shepherd. The Emeria Shepherd is there to give Nahiri's ultimate a target, but I'm not sure if that's the best target. This build has been doing well against some SOI midrange brews so far.
I didn't see Radiant Flames before - it seems like a good way to stop most aggro decks - provided we can actually hit all 3 colors on turn 3 consistently.
I'm not sure how I feel about the other sweepers - they seem a bit too expensive, and I feel like I'd rather just be playing my own threats at that point.
I like the point about Chandra, Flamecaller. We could use her as a finisher - although the Nahiri creature package has kinda grown on me.
My thoughts on Emeria Shephard was that it was just a bit too risky - by the time you either cast her or get her out with Nahiri ult, you've probably gone through a lot of your lands. She's really good against control, but so is Dragonlord Dromoka or Chandra, Flamecaller, both of which dodge more removal. Against aggro, I'd rather have Linvala, the Preserver.
One thing that I do want to stress is the importance of the ability for us to actually cast our cards, when we want to cast them. I'm going to use Declaration in Stone, Nissa, Voice of Zendikar, and Pia and Kiran Nalaar or Thunderbreak Regent as examples. Hitting those on curve with any degree of consistency is going to be tough. This is one of the reasons why I made the suggestion in the original post to stick with a base GW deck, splashing R relatively lightly.
On the point of removal: I think that if we are considering 2-mana removal, we should be playing 4 Declaration in Stone before moving onto other options. Its poised to be the best removal in the format going forward - akin to a Path to Exile type removal spell. It isn't a 1-for-1 or card advantage (unless you hit multiples), but it is by far the most efficient card disadvantage we're going to see. The clue shouldn't be an issue - if they're paying 2 mana for the clue, they aren't paying 2 mana to kill us or our walkers.
4 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Arlinn Kord
2 Chandra, Flamecaller
Enchantments (8)
4 Oath of Nissa
4 Oath of Gideon
Creatures (4)
4 Elvish Visionary
Sorcery (8)
4 Declaration in Stone
4 Radiant Flames
4 Canopy Vista
4 Fortified Village
4 Cinder Glade
3 Game Trail
2 Needle Spires
5 Forest
4 Plains
4 Jaddi Offshoot
3 Surge of Righteousness
2 Nahiri, the Harbinger
2 Display of Dominance
2 Naturalize
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Gaea's Revenge
Would something like this work a bit better?
Modern: U Living End
Standard: UW Approach of the Second Sun
if you can reliably get double white early , knight of the white orchid can search out canopy visit and goes well with the boosting abilities of the walkers you are using
so at minimum 50% of the time it will be good on T2,if you are able to double white with regularity. You are playing a 6 mana p/w so odds are will be useful also around t4 if you miss a land draw. A pumped up knight is also just good defense for your walkers. With the number of tap lands in this deck being able to search out a vista and and have access to 4 untapped lands on t3 or 4 I see as a relevant upside.
Also after playing with 4 oath of nissa in my ramp deck this season I think 26 lands is to many for this mana curve. After playing with oath it is also often better as not a t1 play unless you are searching for mana fixing, with the number of tap lands in this mana base I can see it not being a t1 play a lot anyway. It is often just better to hold onto it and cast when you can drop a relevant threat found in the top 3.
The main reason is because the WW cost is pretty off-putting.
You're also probably also already playing 25-26 lands anyways, so its not like you're missing your land drops too often. I understand that Knight ramps you, but half the time its just a bear to chump with - which Visionary also does, but with the guaranteed card draw each time with a less restrictive cost.
The extra p/t doesn't really matter to me - I'd rather leverage my life total early as a resource to build up a board to chump blockers to land the Turn 3 Nissa. Having a Visionary and a plant to block should be enough to keep her alive, and playing Arlinn or Gideon next turn should be pretty hard to fight through.
Sure, Knight offers some additional trades that can be made, but I think that the drawbacks of the cost and the fact that the effect isn't guaranteed put me off enough to not play it.
Also, I've been thinking about Jaddi Offshoot mainboard. Good or bad idea?
Modern: U Living End
Standard: UW Approach of the Second Sun
Gideon is obviously a 4 of as he is probably the best early planeswalker you have. Arlinn kord needs to be a 2 or 3 of cause honestly most of the time your gonna play another Walker before you play her and they're gonna go for gideon or chandra before they go.for her which means her mutiples are way worse than multiples of others.
Also not a fan of the idea of jamming 4 of the oaths just to supplement your plan. Oath nissa is fine but I would only play 1 or 2 oath of gideon s and just play removal
A Walker deck is a control deck at its core. Which means you need removal and sweepers. I think maybe you need to play like 2 Radiant flames some cheap removal if your not gonna run dragons or other stuff so like impulse, roast, tears of valakut, clip wings maybe, declaration in stone just to name a few.
Trust me when I say walkers decks though fun are really hard to play and if your just jamming walkers all together it doesn't pan out to well most of the time.
The old jund walkers build had its main wincon in xenagos (gideon in your deck) then is used vraska as a 1-2 of to deal with permanents and creatures and could possibly win you a game (nahiri) then alot of them played Pyro master as a draw engine and some played garruk to kinda go over top (basically both of them are combined in chandra) then they just played removal to protect and some dudes that brought abit of versatility to the deck to give it other approaches.
2 Nahiri, the Harbinger
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Arlinn Kord
2 Chandra, Flamecaller
Enchantments (6)
4 Oath of Nissa
2 Quarantine Field
2 Oath of Gideon
Creatures (8)
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Sylvan Advocate
4 Declaration in Stone
4 Radiant Flames
Land (26)
4 Canopy Vista
4 Fortified Village
4 Cinder Glade
3 Game Trail
2 Needle Spires
5 Forest
4 Plains
4 Jaddi Offshoot
3 Surge of Righteousness
2 Nahiri, the Harbinger
2 Display of Dominance
2 Naturalize
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Gaea's Revenge
Quarantine Field, works wonders against most decks. It is a life saver.
I've been poking around a few naya lists since the prerelease and I think the numbers are pretty good on the PW. Nahiri has been a ton of filtering for me after t5 and later with her + ability. I'm a bigger fan than I was originally.
I've seen the removal suite go a few different ways and it's changed the deck itself.
Enchantment support with things like:
herald of the pantheon
oath of Chandra
stasis snare
silk wrap
I like the enchant list a lot. Herald will eat a lot of extra main deck removal but also helps you make those bigger plays. quarantine field is really good here and I've also had great luck in my testing.
I've also seen the dragon lists running:
draconic roar
thunderbreak reagent
dragonlord dromoka
I'm less of a fan of this build because your stuff is easier for your opponent to react to. Between the dragon reveals for dragon if roar and land reveals for the new lands, you can disclose quite a bit of information to your opponent early. Main deck removal is more live in this build too.
I've also seen lists that mean more heavily on recurring value:
goblin darkdwellers
exquisite firecraft
roast
dromoka's command
The list curves out later but using t3 for an exquisite firecraft/nissa/radiant flames gives the deck a lot of flexibility on t3. Radiant could shift to kozilek's return for later in the game.
Of the 3 builds I think the dark dwellers list will be the best to bring early because outside of nahiri we don't have much advantage in errant in the colors outside of potentially clues.
Exquisite firecraft > Arlin kord > goblin darkdwellers seems like a very strong sequence. Especially when you can tick Arlin up on the darkdwellers and get in for 6 menace haste vigilance damage if you didn't flip her the turn before.
Reusing call the gatewatch off the goblins is tons of value. Dig early for your t4 giddeon/nahiri/Arlin and then seal the deal using your evasive 4/4 to tutor Chandra? Yes please. Of course that's magic Christmas land and assumes your opponent isp Laying quite a slow game. Still options are always good.
declaration in stone feels very strong, goblins ships it back in for a second go around. Unless my opponent is digging into PW answers I don't mind the extra cards it may give them. The deck has plenty of hate at the top end for multiple creatures.
Here's my base so far. Still tinkering with exact copy numbers, land, and sideboard.
4 oath of nissa
2 roast
2 oath of Chandra
2 kozilek's return
2-4 nissa, voice of zendikar
4 exquisite firecraft
4 call the gatewatch
2 Gideon, ally of zendikar
2 Arlin kord
2 nahiri, the harbinger
2-4 goblin darkdwellers
2-4 planar outburst
2 Chandra, flamecaller
Thoughts? Thinking early game burn to clear up the board until I can chain walkers into planar outbursts.
angelic purge
clip wings
Thinking either of these to deal with avacyn/ojutai in the side.
*edited : phone spelling errors *
Aggro isn't bad because of the sweepers the deck has access to. Aside from the legendary vampires the rest are fairly fragile in the toughness scale. I'd really like some life gain but the only synergistic card I can see adding is pulse of murasa from the side.
I don't think wall of resurgence is where I want to be.
Maybe sylvan advocate to stall early and being able to get it back for late game swings with pulse would be a worth while hoop. Also pulse can grab a darkdwellers from the yard, so you can have your darkdwellers loop so to speak since they can give you a second pulse.
Nissa is slow, but reaching her ultimate is very doable. Outside of vamps there's not much haste running around and hallowed moonlight in the side can help make games 2-3 a breeze vs coco. So that gives lots of time to find a planar outburst or something if I need it.
The most annoying deck is probably a variant of that UB aristocrats build that was floating around for a bit.
rogue's passage pushes damage through tokens
nantuko husk can dodge damage based removal
lilianna, heretical healer is freaking value town
It's just not very clean. I think angelic purge as a 1 of main or something like a 1-2 split will be required to respond to stuff like that.
2x Cinder Glade
4x Evolving Wilds
6x Forest
4x Game Trail
2x Mountain
4x Needle Spires
1x Plains
2x Oath of Gideon
4x Oath of Nissa
Creature (15)
2x Den Protector
4x Hangarback Walker
2x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
4x Sylvan Advocate
3x Thopter Engineer
2x Arlinn Kord Flip
2x Chandra, Flamecaller
3x Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
Sorcery (3)
3x Angelic Purge
Instant (4)
3x Dromoka's Command
1x Secure the Wastes
I have been testing this deck against Aggro and Control.
Game 1 can be rough against Aggro unless you can get an early Sylvan Advocate then back it up with some planeswalkers.
Game 2 and 3 I'm bringing in Radiant Flames and Silkwrap.
Against control.
I like our Game 1 Matchup because we can flood the board over and over against their removal. Game 2 and 3 I am bringing in 3x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and 2 more Secure the Wastes.
People have been questioning Nissa, Voice of Zendikar and if it is good. I think it is a good 3 drop that you just can't be scared to lose. She is a utility card that you have to play differently depending on the board state. One of the main things I think it does is force them to deal with her which buys you turns to get to the real power house which is Chandra. She also can give you a lot a value from Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Thopter Engineer, and Hangarback Walker.
I am not sold on Oath of Gideon. I think it is a decent 3 drop against control but I find it lacking against agro. I might add another Angelic Purge It is such a great card in this deck.
So far I am liking the deck. B/W Control gives me a lot of issues but Gideon and Secure the Wastes even the playing field some in the second and third game. One deck that gives me trouble is the W/u Aggro deck. With many fast white creatures, Reflector mage, and Dragonlord Ojutai, on top of Always Watching. I find it hard to recover if I don't land Radiant Flames early. Especially once Ojutai and Always Watching comes out, I don't have an answer.
I want to make this deck work but I'm not sure I can make it consistent enough.
I think planar outburst for things like the dragonlords is definately something we should be shooting for. If they tap out for ojutai just wipe the board and start from scratch with your walkers. Avacyn just being a card does make the board clear worse in a vacuum though. A 4/4 flash flier is still a good card regardless if she's saving anything and I think this is a big headache for the deck.
I agree with nissa being undervalued here. With a handful of early answers riding her to 7+ loyalty is achievable against a ton of decks, at which point they can fold to your life and card advantage as you string walkers together.
With no black for discard and blue for counters, how counter heavy do you think the meta will become? Thinking a greenwarden of murasa could do be good in case someone duresses and peels a much needed walker or two from your hand + pressure. I don't see many vamp lists with duress in the main but post board they have access to some good cards that are live against us.
I felt like BW would be a headache just because of anguished unmaking . The life loss isn't that huge against us and along with duress can leave us stranded at times.
I think RG werewolves / wolves will be an easy match up. Answers are good a cross the board for them and after t1 we can reliably cast quite a bit.
Anyone test vs grixis madness or sphinx's tutelage decks yet?
I still don't care for Nissa, but Ill attempt to try and add her into my list. I run 4 Declarations and 4 Flames right now.
My deck plays more as a control deck I believe though, a lot of your decks are mid range.
2 Nahiri, the Harbinger
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Arlinn Kord
2 Chandra, Flamecaller
Enchantments (6)
4 Oath of Nissa
2 Quarantine Field
2 Oath of Gideon
Creatures (8)
2 Archangel Avacyn
2 Elvish Visionary
4 Sylvan Advocate
4 Declaration in Stone
4 Radiant Flames
Land (26)
4 Canopy Vista
4 Fortified Village
4 Cinder Glade
3 Game Trail
2 Needle Spires
5 Forest
4 Plains
4 Jaddi Offshoot
3 Surge of Righteousness
2 Nahiri, the Harbinger
2 Display of Dominance
2 Naturalize
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Gaea's Revenge
This is my current list. I would like to say that adding Avacyn was a brilliant move. It has allowed me to make some crazy plays due to it ability of having flash,vigilance and gives all my creatures indestructibility. The only deck I really struggle against is hand hate decks. Which in our colors there is nothing we can really do about that. Thankfully we still have draw or filtering in Oath of Nissa, Elvish Visionary, Nahiri, Chandra. So basically with 4 Radiant Flames and 4 Declaration mainboard I have no bad matchups
4 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3 Arlinn Kord
2 Chandra, Flamecaller
Enchantments (9)
4 Oath of Nissa
3 Vessel of Nascency
2 Oath of Gideon
Creatures (5)
2 Archangel Avacyn
3 Sylvan Advocate
Instant (2)
3 Second Harvest
3 Declaration in Stone
2 Radiant Flames
1 Traverse the Ulvenwald
Land (24)
2 Canopy Vista
4 Fortified Village
2 Cinder Glade
2 Game Trail
4 Westvale Abbey
7 Forest
3 Plains
2 Lambholt Pacifist
2 Radiant Flames
2 Structural Distortion
3 Dromoka's Command
1 Dual Shot
1 Devil's Playground
1 Gaea's Revenge
2 Descend Upon the Sinful
1 Quarentine Field
Anyway, I went 3-1 last night with a slightly different list. I had 8 planes walkers (2 of each above) and then one Nissa (origins) as a creature. I was playing two or three radiant flames (I need one or two more), but I felt that, that card was the all star all night. Anyway, the differences off the top of my head are:
4 Oath of Nissa
2 O o Chandra
2 O o Gideon
3 Fiery Temper
1 silk wrap
1 Dromoka's command
1 Secure the wastes
4 slyvan advocates
1 Nissa
1 DL Dromoka
2 DL Atarka
added 1 Linvala, the preserver
4 evolving wilds
2 plains
2 mountaiin
3 of each of the "dual lands" with the exception of needle spires (2x).
Round 1
Won the mirror 1-0-1. It went to time in game two after I won the first game.
Round 2
I lost to 4c Rites. I kept getting eldrazi displaced and reflector mageed and just generally never had any good draws or top decks.
0-2
Round 3
I am not sure what I played, but won in 3. It was red and colorless, the game I lost to was against Goblin Darkdwellers. He was able to keep me at one creature that game (DL Dromoka), but I couldn't block with it and he did back to back reality smashers for the win.
I don't remember one of the wins. The other one, I just had a superior board state with three or four PW. His comment was, "You know its bad when you don't feel good with two reality smashers in play and a third in your hand!"
2-1
Round 4
I played against GW humans. I played mono white humans for awhile and thought I would give this Naya SF deck a chance. Anyway, I pretty much knew how his deck played out. Make a long story short, I won in three. The game I did lose.....I lost the race as he got out too many humans and an always watching too fast and I had no real answers. I think radiant flames was the all-star in this match up.
2-1
4 oath of nissa
1 oath of Chandra
3 dromoka Command
3 secure the wastes
2 declaration in stone
4 sylven advocate
3 tireless tracker
2 den protector
2 nissa, vastwood seer
2 archangel avacyn
2 nissa voice of zendikar
3 Gideon, ally of zendikar
2 arlinn kord
2 Chandra, flamecaller
2 needle spires
3 canopy Vista
3 cinder glade
2 battlefield forge
1 game trail
2 fortified village
1 westvale abbey
2 evolving wilds
4 forest
3 plains
2 mountain