I found that to be true too, especially about the lack of 1 drops. In the list I posted on here, I really felt a serious lack of 1 drops. Since I was making a deck with a ton of anthems, I thought of maybe adding Cliffside Lookout, but since it's neither human or werewolf, it didn't really feel like a good fit. It's probably doesn't need to be a human or werewolf, but having a 1 drop that would perfectly fill the spot would be much better.
I just had a horrible idea, Mirrorpool can be used to make a clone of Moon face werewolf. Pass the turn, flip Bandit, sac pool for a permanent copy. Cool right? Shame you need two cards and six mana to pool it off, not to mention playing extra colorless sources. At least it would be fun, I think.
Dragon Whisperer? Brilliant! I would never have thought of adding that, but I think I can see how it fits. Gives you fliers obviously, but also gives you a non-spellcasting way to generate creatures later in the game when you're trying not to flip all your creatures back.
So I'm thinking about building this deck (have most of the cards) why isn't this deck a CoCo deck? It seems like the deck could take a page from CoCo builds and focus on 3cmc with the reach of Atarka's Command, how are the match ups against:
G/W Tokens
B/W Control
Grixis Control
Ramp
Coco.dec
?
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():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard Arena: Eh? Gruul or Die
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now: G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record) C Eldrazi Tron (9-5) UG Infect RW Burn
So I'm thinking about building this deck (have most of the cards) why isn't this deck a CoCo deck? It seems like the deck could take a page from CoCo builds and focus on 3cmc with the reach of Atarka's Command, how are the match ups against:
G/W Tokens
B/W Control
Grixis Control
Ramp
Coco.dec
?
GW Tokens -- Bad. Breakneck Rider is your best shot but you have to do a lot of get lethal on board. Avacyn is a problem and you need removal for it -- which makes CoCo awkward since Lightning Axe and Exquisite Firecraft are the best answers.
B/W Control -- Bad. Languish. Arlinn doesn't quite do enough.
Grixis Control -- Also bad. Killing Kalitas is a PITA. Languish is also tough.
CoCo.dec -- Good. Arlinn is very good here.
I actually started w/ CoCo and found that you just couldn't answer mid-range threats that you couldn't go under. GW Tokens and Kalitas.dec just make that particularly difficult.
Arlinn is very good vs. Gideon, so if you opponent thinks that sticking a Gideon will be best vs. you, they'll approach the game incorrectly.
I have ~ 75 GW% w/ Werewolves but 10-25% of games played are against subpar players or even subpar decks. I'm about 50/50 against decks like BW Control but I'm able to leverage my knowledge of the MU particularly well. They usually have no idea what's going on.
Dragon Whisperer? Brilliant! I would never have thought of adding that, but I think I can see how it fits. Gives you fliers obviously, but also gives you a non-spellcasting way to generate creatures later in the game when you're trying not to flip all your creatures back.
This looks more like a solid GR Midrange deck that actually has reach. I didn't realize the control match ups were that bad. Having played against a few werewolf decks, in the past weeks I felt like they were a Lightning Bolt effect away from getting there.
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Standard Arena: Eh? Gruul or Die
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now: G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record) C Eldrazi Tron (9-5) UG Infect RW Burn
I didn't realize the control match ups were that bad.
Think about it like this:
-- You're not actually fast enough to go under a deck like White Weenies or GW Tokens nor do you go big enough.
-- So you play more 3 drops to go bigger
-- Your 3 drops aren't resilient to any of the current removal played in the format
-- You look else where to resilient threats
-- You also need to play removal to beat Kalitas and Avacyn since you're already not fast enough to beat WW or GW tokens
So what you end up with is a RG midrange deck that has trouble beating the bigger midrange decks like Grixis or BW. You can still beat GW since they don't pack much removal but I'm not going to act like it's a cake walk.
I've found Werewolves easiest MUs are White Weenies and Ramp. Also, casual brews like Brain in the Shore or other BFZ or SOI tribes. The deck very natrually shifts from aggro to Jund pre and post board -- with Arlinn and Firecraft facilitating the shift.
I'm still playing Werewolves, and I am still enjoying the deck. It's not very good, but it's better than I thought I would be able to get it. A couple things I've noticed.
Ember-Eye Wolf is much better than it looks at first glance. Play it turn two, slam some wolves down, and turn four pump him and throw him out there. He's either 5 damage or kills something. Neither of those matter; you didn't cast a spell and get to flip your wolves.
The Neglected Hierloom - Lambholt Pacifist synergy is really strong. Turn 1 Hierloom, turn 2 Pacifist, turn 3 equip swing and transform holding two mana to represent an instant. Turn 4 7/7 first strike off just two cards is very respectable in every MU, and game winning in a few.
Don't dismiss Blighted Gorge. A two damage burn spell that doesn't take a deck slot and doesn't count as a spell has a lot of value here. It can represent reach, or it can kill something. Again, transforming your guys without wasting a turn is very strong.
Arlinn Kord and Duskwatch Recruiter are both generically good cards that have extra synergy here. We may not be the best Duskwatch recruiter deck, but he's better here than in most decks.
Howlpack Resourgence is really powerful. Instant speed anthems are unholy combat tricks, and the ability to cast it on the opponent's turn adds yet another strong transform option, even more so when used for blocks.
Werewolves plays like an aggro deck with the option to be a midrange deck if you decide to do so. Being in this wierd hybrid space means some cards that look good at first glance aren't great. Atarka's Command is the most notable example; werewolves isn't fast enough to make use of the aggro menace, and is better off without it.
These observations are for decks that aim to leverage werewolf synergies. If you are playing a mostly generic R/G aggro or midrange deck that just happens to play werewolves, then this doesn't apply to you.
P.S. Silverfur is overrated outside of dedicated builds. If you play him you play 4, and you play at least 12 instants or sorceries that target your guys. You can't rely on your opponents to do the work for you.
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Lycanthropy Awareness Day.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
This deck gets absolutely annihilated by W/U or W in general. It just has zero answers to White's removal.
I want it to work, but I fared way better with a weird G/U splash for counterspells to protect my creatures than conventional G/R.
Duskwatch Recruiter, CoCo, Arlinn, Silverfur Partison, just going wide, using more hasty wolves. The deck has it's problems, but white removal is one of the things the deck has plethora of tools to deal with. If you'd like to be more specific I can help with which tools might be most effective for you.
Private Mod Note
():
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Lycanthropy Awareness Day.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Duskwatch Recruiter, CoCo, Arlinn, Silverfur Partison, just going wide, using more hasty wolves. The deck has it's problems, but white removal is one of the things the deck has plethora of tools to deal with. If you'd like to be more specific I can help with which tools might be most effective for you.
Out of those, Partisan is the only true answer. I'm talking the abundance of stuff like Silkwrap, Stasis Snare, Pacifism, Immolating Glare, not to mention if you're playing Esper then you have to worry about Anguished Unmaking, Douse in Gloom, and the plethora of Blue's "creature does not untap" enchantments.
Granted my comment about White evolved into a tirade about Esper in general; but the point stands. This wolf deck doesn't have the speed of Atarka red or Sligh to outpace that kind of control. It's more like a "fast midrange" aggro deck, but the problem is that there's no true way to protect your wolves. They need Hexproof to be viable because they don't have the speed to survive the current removal meta, I feel. Your mileage may vary, however.
If W based control is what ills you, I suggest CoCo Recruiter with Bandits and Ember Eyes. Keep the flow of creatures going and hasty too.
Ember Eye may help, I did overlook that one. I've also got X1 Surrak in my build, he isn't so much a game changer as just a very solid way to close pressure.
I'm super excited to see what EDM brings. If we get a reprint of Moonmist or Nature's Guile I think that would definitely help.
In preparation for EMN and the rotation come October, I devised this pretty nifty deck involving wolves and humans. It's a Naya variation.
The goal of the deck is simple. Flood the board with creatures, pump them out with Always Watching and Howlpack Resurgence, and get someone big and buff with Neglected Heirloom and Arlinn Kord. You have Thalia, Odrich, and Sigarda for some pretty cool buffs.
Snarl, that's similar to a deck I posted a few pages back. Not so much the cards, but the idea. 3 colors, anthems. You're even using Always Watching, Howlpack Resurgence, Thalia's Lieutenant and Breakneck Rider (flip). The list was thrown together, and I don't remember all of the particulars, but I remember it had Cryptolith Rite as a way to smooth out the mana and power deep into the deck using Duskwatch Recruiter.
I think this is where I'd start with testing. Now that there's a bevy of good werewolves, I'd go all in on the Heirloom plan and see what fits and what doesn't. At the beginning of the format, I played Den Protector and Arlinn Kord and found it to be an excellent way to nuke Gideons. Ulrich helps you out here as well.
Edit: Incendiary Flow was desperately needed for early Hangarback Walkers. This deck might even just want to maindeck it, just because it deals with HBW and kills early Advocates. It also goes to the dome. Though I think Moonlight Hunt is where you want to be in the maindeck, just since it deals with just about ever threat out of GW and Bant Humans, which are the current level one in the format.
The mana is still sorta not great and having a t1 R and t1 G play doesn't make it any better.
Wax the Moon is just bad, IMHO. On most playable Werewolves (Duskwatch Recruiter, Lambholt Pacifist, Geier Reach bandit, etc.), it's just a +1/+1 trample boost, quite underwhelming for 2 cmc. It only gets good with Kessig Prowler and Ulrich of the Krallenhorde. Considering the last one is a legendary and 5cmc, and that you won't play more than 2 in the main deck, making room for a card that will be so rarely good, is really a bad choice. Playtesting may reveal something else, and I'm ready to be convinced otherwise, but Wax the Moon is not close to Moonmist, sadly.
lugger : Out of curiosity, why is it that you're not considering Collected Company for the deck? Is it because of budget consideration, or after playtesting?
I don't think the Heirloom is appropriate for competitve Standard. There's too much attrition to disrupt an Equipment, no matter how good it is. No?
Anyways, I'm gonna throw in one of each on color ability lands as mana sinks and see how they perform. Blighted Gorge, Foundry of the Consuls, Looming Spires, Rogue's Passage, Spawning Bed, and maybe a Mirrorpool since I already run 3 Crumbling Vestige. Can't hurt to try something new since it's just for fun.
Thoughts or concerns?
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
Dragon Whisperer? Brilliant! I would never have thought of adding that, but I think I can see how it fits. Gives you fliers obviously, but also gives you a non-spellcasting way to generate creatures later in the game when you're trying not to flip all your creatures back.
G/W Tokens
B/W Control
Grixis Control
Ramp
Coco.dec
?
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
GW Tokens -- Bad. Breakneck Rider is your best shot but you have to do a lot of get lethal on board. Avacyn is a problem and you need removal for it -- which makes CoCo awkward since Lightning Axe and Exquisite Firecraft are the best answers.
B/W Control -- Bad. Languish. Arlinn doesn't quite do enough.
Grixis Control -- Also bad. Killing Kalitas is a PITA. Languish is also tough.
CoCo.dec -- Good. Arlinn is very good here.
I actually started w/ CoCo and found that you just couldn't answer mid-range threats that you couldn't go under. GW Tokens and Kalitas.dec just make that particularly difficult.
Arlinn is very good vs. Gideon, so if you opponent thinks that sticking a Gideon will be best vs. you, they'll approach the game incorrectly.
I have ~ 75 GW% w/ Werewolves but 10-25% of games played are against subpar players or even subpar decks. I'm about 50/50 against decks like BW Control but I'm able to leverage my knowledge of the MU particularly well. They usually have no idea what's going on.
To beat Languish, I play things like Akoum Firebird.
Atarka's Command doesn't do anything other than help you race.
This is what I'd play right now.
4x Village Messenger
4x Sylvan Advocate
4x Scourge Wolf
4x Dragon Whisperer
4x Sin Prodder
4x Akoum Firebird
Planeswalkers: (3)
3x Arlinn Kord
4x Exquisite Firecraft
3x Lightning Axe
2x Fiery Temper
Lands: (24)
4x Cinder Glade
4x Game Trail
1x Evolving Wilds
10x Mountain
5x Forest
2x Chandra, Flamecaller
2x Rending Volley
1x Roast
2x Act of Treason
2x Goldnight Castigator
3x Den Protector
2x Clip Wings
1x Fiery Impulse
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
Think about it like this:
-- You're not actually fast enough to go under a deck like White Weenies or GW Tokens nor do you go big enough.
-- So you play more 3 drops to go bigger
-- Your 3 drops aren't resilient to any of the current removal played in the format
-- You look else where to resilient threats
-- You also need to play removal to beat Kalitas and Avacyn since you're already not fast enough to beat WW or GW tokens
So what you end up with is a RG midrange deck that has trouble beating the bigger midrange decks like Grixis or BW. You can still beat GW since they don't pack much removal but I'm not going to act like it's a cake walk.
I've found Werewolves easiest MUs are White Weenies and Ramp. Also, casual brews like Brain in the Shore or other BFZ or SOI tribes. The deck very natrually shifts from aggro to Jund pre and post board -- with Arlinn and Firecraft facilitating the shift.
Ember-Eye Wolf is much better than it looks at first glance. Play it turn two, slam some wolves down, and turn four pump him and throw him out there. He's either 5 damage or kills something. Neither of those matter; you didn't cast a spell and get to flip your wolves.
The Neglected Hierloom - Lambholt Pacifist synergy is really strong. Turn 1 Hierloom, turn 2 Pacifist, turn 3 equip swing and transform holding two mana to represent an instant. Turn 4 7/7 first strike off just two cards is very respectable in every MU, and game winning in a few.
Don't dismiss Blighted Gorge. A two damage burn spell that doesn't take a deck slot and doesn't count as a spell has a lot of value here. It can represent reach, or it can kill something. Again, transforming your guys without wasting a turn is very strong.
Arlinn Kord and Duskwatch Recruiter are both generically good cards that have extra synergy here. We may not be the best Duskwatch recruiter deck, but he's better here than in most decks.
Howlpack Resourgence is really powerful. Instant speed anthems are unholy combat tricks, and the ability to cast it on the opponent's turn adds yet another strong transform option, even more so when used for blocks.
Werewolves plays like an aggro deck with the option to be a midrange deck if you decide to do so. Being in this wierd hybrid space means some cards that look good at first glance aren't great. Atarka's Command is the most notable example; werewolves isn't fast enough to make use of the aggro menace, and is better off without it.
These observations are for decks that aim to leverage werewolf synergies. If you are playing a mostly generic R/G aggro or midrange deck that just happens to play werewolves, then this doesn't apply to you.
P.S. Silverfur is overrated outside of dedicated builds. If you play him you play 4, and you play at least 12 instants or sorceries that target your guys. You can't rely on your opponents to do the work for you.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
Edit: I've been thinking of something like:
4x Duskwatch Recruiter
4x Lambholt Pacifist
2x Scourge Wolf
4x Kessig Forgemaster
4x Geier Reach Bandit
4x Breakneck Rider
4x Moonlight Hunt
2x Howlpack Resurgence
2x Neglected Heirloom
4x Game Trail
4x Cinder Glade
4x Evolving Wilds
8x Mountain
3x Forest
I want it to work, but I fared way better with a weird G/U splash for counterspells to protect my creatures than conventional G/R.
Duskwatch Recruiter, CoCo, Arlinn, Silverfur Partison, just going wide, using more hasty wolves. The deck has it's problems, but white removal is one of the things the deck has plethora of tools to deal with. If you'd like to be more specific I can help with which tools might be most effective for you.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
Out of those, Partisan is the only true answer. I'm talking the abundance of stuff like Silkwrap, Stasis Snare, Pacifism, Immolating Glare, not to mention if you're playing Esper then you have to worry about Anguished Unmaking, Douse in Gloom, and the plethora of Blue's "creature does not untap" enchantments.
Granted my comment about White evolved into a tirade about Esper in general; but the point stands. This wolf deck doesn't have the speed of Atarka red or Sligh to outpace that kind of control. It's more like a "fast midrange" aggro deck, but the problem is that there's no true way to protect your wolves. They need Hexproof to be viable because they don't have the speed to survive the current removal meta, I feel. Your mileage may vary, however.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
Ember Eye may help, I did overlook that one. I've also got X1 Surrak in my build, he isn't so much a game changer as just a very solid way to close pressure.
I'm super excited to see what EDM brings. If we get a reprint of Moonmist or Nature's Guile I think that would definitely help.
The goal of the deck is simple. Flood the board with creatures, pump them out with Always Watching and Howlpack Resurgence, and get someone big and buff with Neglected Heirloom and Arlinn Kord. You have Thalia, Odrich, and Sigarda for some pretty cool buffs.
This is the full decklist right here.
3x Breakneck Rider Flip
4x Duskwatch Recruiter Flip
4x Geier Reach Bandit Flip
4x Lambholt Pacifist Flip
2x Odric, Lunarch Marshal
2x Sigarda, Heron's Grace
2x Thalia's Lieutenant
4x Village Messenger Flip
1x Arlinn Kord Flip
Land (24)
6x Forest
4x Fortified Village
4x Game Trail
5x Mountain
5x Plains
Enchantment (6)
3x Always Watching
3x Howlpack Resurgence
4x Neglected Heirloom Flip
3x Clip Wings
3x Declaration in Stone
3x Eerie Interlude
3x Moonlight Hunt
3x Rending Volley
Standard: Larkblue's Competitive Mono Red Aggro
4 Kessig Prowler
4 Duskwatch Recruiter
4 Lambholt Pacifist
4 Geier Reach Bandit
4 Silverfur Partisan
4 Spirit of the Hunt
Instants (12)
4 Dromoka's Command
4 Howlpack Resurgence
4 Collected Company
4 Game Trail
4 Fortified Village
3 Cinder Glade
3 Canopy Vista
10 Forest
3 Shrill Howler
3 Hermit of the Natterknolls
3 Moonlight Hunt
3 Ulrich of the Krallenhorde
3 Arlin Kord
I realise now that this build is Naya Colors, so I'll continue discussing the deck in this other thread :
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/deck-creation-standard/711722-naya-werewolves
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
4x Kessig Prowler
4x Village Messenger
4x Duskwatch Recruiter
3x Lambholt Pacifist
4x Geier Reach Bandit
4x Den Protector
3x Ulrich of the Krallenhorde
3x Arlinn Kord
Instants and Artifacts: (7)
3x Moonlight Hunt
4x Neglected Heirloom
Lands: (24)
4x Game Trail
4x Cinder Glade
8x Forest
8x Mountain
3x Spirit of the Hunt
3x Incendiary Flow
2x Roast
1x Rending Volley
1x Clip Wings
2x Act of Treason
3x Goldnight Castigator
I think this is where I'd start with testing. Now that there's a bevy of good werewolves, I'd go all in on the Heirloom plan and see what fits and what doesn't. At the beginning of the format, I played Den Protector and Arlinn Kord and found it to be an excellent way to nuke Gideons. Ulrich helps you out here as well.
Den Protector also picks up an Ashmouth Blade like a boss.
Spirit of the Hunt is just Negate for Languish and Radiant Flames, which the deck really needed, otherwise you were usually on the all-in-Castigator post-board wipe.
Edit: Incendiary Flow was desperately needed for early Hangarback Walkers. This deck might even just want to maindeck it, just because it deals with HBW and kills early Advocates. It also goes to the dome. Though I think Moonlight Hunt is where you want to be in the maindeck, just since it deals with just about ever threat out of GW and Bant Humans, which are the current level one in the format.
The mana is still sorta not great and having a t1 R and t1 G play doesn't make it any better.
I feel like Neglected Heirloom should sit out if the deck goes more midrange in the above fashion.
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
I don't think the Heirloom is appropriate for competitve Standard. There's too much attrition to disrupt an Equipment, no matter how good it is. No?
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
BTW, if you could look at the deck I,ve brewed, and comment on it, I would really appreciate.
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.