Going to be trying to assemble this deck come Pre-release.
I like it. Would cut Asylum Visitor or Bloodsworn for either Lightning Ax or Ult Price. If the SSG video taught us anything, it's that the deck wants hard removal(lightning ax at 5 damage is basically hard removal)
One thing to note, this deck has so many iterations that unlike Warriors(B/W was the only one at tourny level), which bassically had one build with about 8 slots up for debate, you can build this vamp or madness deck in so many different ways, able to adapt to the meta game.
So I've been tinkering with a non vampire Madness based deck. I knew I didn't want to be vampires since the spoiler dropped and had a list floating around fairly close to Nevelo's, which I have been building on.
Overall, I found the vampires to be too cute. Olivia was often too slow and Drana was WAY too slow, so I cut both and focused purely on aggressive Rakdos cards with a small Madness subtheme. Granted there's still a lot of vampires in the deck, but that's just by virtue of them being good aggressive cards.
I've come to agree that Youths aren't absurd, but they aren't nearly bad enough to cut from the deck, so they've been trimmed slightly. Landing one on turn 3 is still fantastic and even turn 4 isn't too bad since it trades with Kalitas and punches through basically everything that isn't Mindwrack Demon.
Asylum Visitor is also not crazy in an aggressive shell, but it's still a good Madness payoff and can help you pull ahead on your opponent. Being a 3/1 for 2 is also not irrelevant, so I trimmed one.
I cut the Firecraft's from my main deck in favor of Olivia's Bloodsworn (the flying has actually been really relevant with all the decks like Company and Jund trying to clog up the ground), though I'm not positive that's correct. The full 8 copies of Bolt have been the real deal and having more burn in the main might be helpful, though I'm not sure what to cut.
Gorger is mediocre, but it's a 1 mana 2/1 with faint synergy, so therefore it makes the cut. Zurgo is basically the same.
All the cute madness enablers have been cut. While that gives me slightly less discard sources, with things like Ravenous Bloodseeker and Heir of Falkenrath, I haven't really had a problem, especially considering the reduced number of madness cards.
I originally had Macabre Waltz in my sideboard, but I've found that just Duressing or Transgressing away my opponent's wrath is much better than trying to rebuild. I'm still not putting the discard spells in the main though.
Asylum Visitor's inclusion is due to being a 3/1 for 2 with madness, not the possibility of drawing cards. That's gravy. I agree that Olivia's Bloodsworn probably deserves a slot and Sinister Concoction may be efficient enough to earn one as well.
I don't care how aggressive you are, until you convert to a burn deck Alms of the Vein is not a good card. And even then it's very very bad if you cannot discard it. The bottom line for me is that if it isn't a creature or can't hit a creature I don't want to touch it.
I also don't believe in Ravenous Bloodsucker because although it is a repeatable discard outlet, it is a horrible horrible card if you don't activate it. Do you really want to draw a 1/3 for 2 and have no madness cards in hand?
Aggro decks ride the knife's edge killing the opponent before they stabilize. You don't have time to be cute or include anything that isn't applicable immediately almost all of the time. Think about the cards in your deck and what you're trying to do. If you don't kill the opponent before they get to Archangel Avacyn mana you probably lose.
Asylum Visitor's inclusion is due to being a 3/1 for 2 with madness, not the possibility of drawing cards. That's gravy. I agree that Olivia's Bloodsworn probably deserves a slot and Sinister Concoction may be efficient enough to earn one as well.
I don't care how aggressive you are, until you convert to a burn deck Alms of the Vein is not a good card. And even then it's very very bad if you cannot discard it. The bottom line for me is that if it isn't a creature or can't hit a creature I don't want to touch it.
I also don't believe in Ravenous Bloodsucker because although it is a repeatable discard outlet, it is a horrible horrible card if you don't activate it. Do you really want to draw a 1/3 for 2 and have no madness cards in hand?
Aggro decks ride the knife's edge killing the opponent before they stabilize. You don't have time to be cute or include anything that isn't applicable immediately almost all of the time. Think about the cards in your deck and what you're trying to do. If you don't kill the opponent before they get to Archangel Avacyn mana you probably lose.
I would disagree about Alms. Having reach has been very important with how many decks trying to muck up the ground there are. Many times my opponent will stabilize around 4-5 and require a couple of burn spells to finish off.
As long as I'm playing Alms, I want some form of free, semi repeatable discard since I'm currently at 14 Madness spells. If I were to cut Alms then I would be more likely to take the Bloodseekers out (though I do think I'll shave one for the 4th Asylum Seeker, since you make a good point about it).
I'm starting to worry a bit about this deck as Star city's winners and losers article puts olivia and and gorger in the loser column I'm interested in seeing what the set reviews continue to say
I'm starting to worry a bit about this deck as Star city's winners and losers article puts olivia and and gorger in the loser column I'm interested in seeing what the set reviews continue to say
I saw that article too. I think Olivia will be bonkers but Vamps as a strict tribal will not be the most efficient version of the R/B Aggro or R/B Midrange - Madness. They can form the core but will want to be surrounded by the best r/b creature at each curve slot.
Not all them have flying or are super high value. Michael Majors'(author)also said G/R will have trouble dealing with Avacyn. Not quite. They have plummet and clip wings so not saying Majors doesnt know what he's talking about, but Aggro isn't really his thing.
Remember, Kalitas pre order price was around $6. I thought that was crazy since I saw insane value in him but I believed the pros and assumed they saw something I didn't. I was wrong. Not saying all pre order hype or lack thereof is wrong, but cardas are good or bad based on the meta game, and quite frankly, we had no idea what the standard meta game will look like.
The vampire deck did seem like it was pulling into too many different directions, though. It had Kalitas, but not enough removal to make him really good. It had a few madness cards, but not enough effective ways to trigger them (especially wound up being an issue for Avacyn's Judgement, which really needed to be played as a fireball a lot of times, but couldn't). I still think there's a good deck in here somewhere, but can't tell you if it's a madness deck, a controlling Kalitas deck, or just a swarm of aggressive fliers.
There's the problem...all vampires LOL. While I would love nothing better than tribal vampires to be a Tier 1 deck, unless 60% of them had flying, they just aren't good enough on their own. WotC really should have made them almost all have flying and only give benefits to other vampires. This keeps them from being OP in other decks but keeps the tribal deck good.
Anyway, on to the list. Has any tribal strategy ever been Tier 1 while in standard? Not sure but not in recent memory. Same will hold true here. A Thunderbreak Regent would have been good in place of Bloodseeker(or maybe a 2/2 split with Av Dragon). Drana can drop to 2x. I'm shocked he played Cinder Barrens. Maybe it's just me, but Vamp aggro does not seem to work on it's own. It can form the shell, but needs help from outside the tribe. Maybe I just prefer the more Mid Range Version since no one has yet to show the all out Aggro version works from play testing.
Olivia is a total trap in this deck imo. She is just too slow for an aggro deck. The only way to trigger her ability is to actually cast your creature spells and then you need to have a madness card in your hand and then you need to have enough mana to be able to cast that card...and when you do the best you can probably do is Incorrigble Youths which is deceptively average.
She is definitely strong enough to find a home somewhere but this isn't the deck. Maybe Zombies or some kind of graveyard deck where you dont have to waste mana and cast spells in order to get her to trigger.
The card you discard for Olivia doesn't have to be a madness card. If the creature you pump with her doesn't come with haste, you're doing an extra (1 + its power) damage from the card you lose, plus another damage for every additional time it hits, at no mana cost. Even for something as small as Falkenrath Gorger, that's a zero-mana bolt to the face.
So Josh Silvestri has some words to say about Drana and Vamps in general:
BR Vampires is a solid week-1 deck—but a solid list isn't out there yet... Don’t slowly morph your deck into midrange by adding heavier cards to your deck like Kalitas and Thunderbreak Regent.
Drana is a fun card, but basically unplayable if you don't curve out, and many Vampire decks only run a single playset of 1-drops.
WG Humans is the best aggro deck.
I agree with him a fair bit, actually. Wx Humans has been wrecking me in my testing.
I agree there is a good aggro vamp deck somewhere but it just doesn't seem that deck is 80-100% vamps. Maybe 35-50 right now.
In straight aggro, yeah the white guys can go wide better than we can. Evasion should be much more common in vampires to get thru cluttered boards.
It's funny how the little things would help the deck so much. What if youths had flying or menace? What if a couple of them had an undying effect(or something like sac another creature to regenerate target vampire to simulate their feeding)? Why in the world do none of them have lifelink...isn't that like Vampires thing...to drain life.
It's so close. I think Eldritch moon will see the culmination of a true, tourny level proper Vamp tribal deck. Until then, I'm happy with a B/R aggro or midrange running 8-12x of the best Vamps at the very least....at the end of the day, it's just a card game.
So Josh Silvestri has some words to say about Drana and Vamps in general:
BR Vampires is a solid week-1 deck—but a solid list isn't out there yet... Don’t slowly morph your deck into midrange by adding heavier cards to your deck like Kalitas and Thunderbreak Regent.
Drana is a fun card, but basically unplayable if you don't curve out, and many Vampire decks only run a single playset of 1-drops.
WG Humans is the best aggro deck.
I agree with him a fair bit, actually. Wx Humans has been wrecking me in my testing.
What does the WG list look like. Does it run any of the green werewolves
Not sure why they would be such an issue. You obviously need to kill them before pump but even then Languish should take them offline and you should be back attacking with mana up.
The problem with many of those is if you're going total aggro, it kills your guys too. Mid Rangey builds are safer. Virulent Plague is a must have sideboard if tokens blows up.
Also. Two cards that could fit well in either version are Pitiless Horde and Goldnight Castigator. You obviously don't want both unless you plan to take 4 damage every turn. Both add burst damage against our traditionally weak matchups like controlly mid range.
So Josh Silvestri has some words to say about Drana and Vamps in general:
BR Vampires is a solid week-1 deck—but a solid list isn't out there yet... Don’t slowly morph your deck into midrange by adding heavier cards to your deck like Kalitas and Thunderbreak Regent.
Drana is a fun card, but basically unplayable if you don't curve out, and many Vampire decks only run a single playset of 1-drops.
WG Humans is the best aggro deck.
I agree with him a fair bit, actually. Wx Humans has been wrecking me in my testing.
What does the WG list look like. Does it run any of the green werewolves
I have been pretty frustrated with the deck. Just doesn't seem that it has enough power to compete. I am testing a Liliana, Heretical Healer package.
Why Liliana, Heretical Healer? She fits right in with what we wanna do. She is a zero mana discard outlet. Enables madness. Turns on Asylum Visitor. She can recur almost all our creatures.
Still I don't think this deck can match up with the format.:(
With 25 lands and 8 non creatures it can be a bit difficult to hit. Personally the lists I'm trying are running Company, but I don't run Silkwrap right now.
I have been pretty frustrated with the deck. Just doesn't seem that it has enough power to compete. I am testing a Liliana, Heretical Healer package.
Why Liliana, Heretical Healer? She fits right in with what we wanna do. She is a zero mana discard outlet. Enables madness. Turns on Asylum Visitor. She can recur almost all our creatures.
Still I don't think this deck can match up with the format.:(
Maybe an aggro flyers deck is the way to go?
I just know there is a good list with a Vamp shell somewhere. There are too many moving parts for there not to be. Also, you're not running Olivia which I know some agree with but without her, what's the point in doing vampires.
I think what we'll find out is for Vamps to work, and by proxy this style deck, is they have to have evasion. We can't compete with small creatures 1 for 1 because Green and White do it better. We can't out control U/W B/W or U/B. I think the trick to these creatures is much like Dragons. Curve can be 2-5 CMC and just start with Heir and Olivia then build from there. Try adding H Walkers. Add Goldnight Castigator and T Regent. Try Goblin DD and DL Kolaghan. Everyone, including myself, thought Wizards basically built a Tier 1 Vamp tribal deck for us and that doesn't seem to be the case.
We'll just need to do what Abzan did. Look at each curve slot and pick the most efficient creature there. I have no doubt Vamps will form an 8-12x shell but don't get hung up on having to have 20+ of them unless you find they are worth it in testing. Also, madness appears to be a more powerful but also more tricky mechanic to build around than say Prowess so also don't feel like you need to have 8-12 madness cards. Think of it like gravy.
If you find an aggro version of Vamps that has alot of favorable matchups, def share it but it seams we are finding out the short term future for Vamps is aggro mid range.
This is all assuming you're building the deck for FNMs PTQs etc. If you're just playing for fun or want alot of flavor, Vamps are cool and should only get better next set.
Remember this: R/B Dragons was a fringe deck(after Theros rotated...before, it was a very solid archtype with Rabblemaster and Stormbreath) until Tom Ross had the revelation to add Thopter synergies and took it all the way to a top 4 and resulting 8-9% of the meta game. It was then hated out by Mardu Green but that's how meta games work. I guess what I'm saying is we all, including myself, need to think outside the box.
In Evan Erwin and Brad Nelson's set review Brad said something along the lines of Olivia then thunderbreak discarding a temper then goblin dark dwellers to recast fiery temper and i thought that sounded like a good place to start
Everything but the Gorger has some form of evasion the GDD lets us replay all our non creature spells. Maybe +1 olivia -1 GDD to make sure we have the best chance to cast it turn 3
I like it. Would cut Asylum Visitor or Bloodsworn for either Lightning Ax or Ult Price. If the SSG video taught us anything, it's that the deck wants hard removal(lightning ax at 5 damage is basically hard removal)
One thing to note, this deck has so many iterations that unlike Warriors(B/W was the only one at tourny level), which bassically had one build with about 8 slots up for debate, you can build this vamp or madness deck in so many different ways, able to adapt to the meta game.
Overall, I found the vampires to be too cute. Olivia was often too slow and Drana was WAY too slow, so I cut both and focused purely on aggressive Rakdos cards with a small Madness subtheme. Granted there's still a lot of vampires in the deck, but that's just by virtue of them being good aggressive cards.
4 Smoldering Marsh
4 Foreboding Ruins
6 Swamp
10 Mountain
Creatures (25)
4 Falkenrath Gorger
3 Zurgo Bellstriker
3 Asylum Visitor
4 Heir of Falkenrath
4 Olivia's Bloodsworn
4 Ravenous Bloodseeker
3 Incorrigible Youths
4 Fiery Temper
4 Alms of the Vein
3 Lightning Axe
2 Kolaghan's Command
3 Call the Bloodline
4 Duress
2 Transgress the Mind
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Exquisite Firecraft
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
I don't care how aggressive you are, until you convert to a burn deck Alms of the Vein is not a good card. And even then it's very very bad if you cannot discard it. The bottom line for me is that if it isn't a creature or can't hit a creature I don't want to touch it.
I also don't believe in Ravenous Bloodsucker because although it is a repeatable discard outlet, it is a horrible horrible card if you don't activate it. Do you really want to draw a 1/3 for 2 and have no madness cards in hand?
Aggro decks ride the knife's edge killing the opponent before they stabilize. You don't have time to be cute or include anything that isn't applicable immediately almost all of the time. Think about the cards in your deck and what you're trying to do. If you don't kill the opponent before they get to Archangel Avacyn mana you probably lose.
1 Lightning Beserker
3 Dragon Whisperer
3 Abbot of Keral Keep
3 Sin Prodder
1 Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh
3 Olivia, Mobilized for War
4 Thunderbreak Regent
3 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
4 Draconic Roar
2 Fiery Impulse
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Exquisite Firecraft
2 Roast
1 Ultimate Price
2 Virulent Plague
2 Roast
1 Swamp
2 Ob Nixilis, Reignited
2 Transgress the Mind
2 Duress
1 Infinite Obliteration
2 Devour in Flames
1 Tears of Valakut
I would disagree about Alms. Having reach has been very important with how many decks trying to muck up the ground there are. Many times my opponent will stabilize around 4-5 and require a couple of burn spells to finish off.
As long as I'm playing Alms, I want some form of free, semi repeatable discard since I'm currently at 14 Madness spells. If I were to cut Alms then I would be more likely to take the Bloodseekers out (though I do think I'll shave one for the 4th Asylum Seeker, since you make a good point about it).
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
I can do that when I get home in like 2 hours
I saw that article too. I think Olivia will be bonkers but Vamps as a strict tribal will not be the most efficient version of the R/B Aggro or R/B Midrange - Madness. They can form the core but will want to be surrounded by the best r/b creature at each curve slot.
Not all them have flying or are super high value. Michael Majors'(author)also said G/R will have trouble dealing with Avacyn. Not quite. They have plummet and clip wings so not saying Majors doesnt know what he's talking about, but Aggro isn't really his thing.
Remember, Kalitas pre order price was around $6. I thought that was crazy since I saw insane value in him but I believed the pros and assumed they saw something I didn't. I was wrong. Not saying all pre order hype or lack thereof is wrong, but cardas are good or bad based on the meta game, and quite frankly, we had no idea what the standard meta game will look like.
The vampire deck did seem like it was pulling into too many different directions, though. It had Kalitas, but not enough removal to make him really good. It had a few madness cards, but not enough effective ways to trigger them (especially wound up being an issue for Avacyn's Judgement, which really needed to be played as a fireball a lot of times, but couldn't). I still think there's a good deck in here somewhere, but can't tell you if it's a madness deck, a controlling Kalitas deck, or just a swarm of aggressive fliers.
4 Asylum Visitor
4 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Heir of Falkenrath
2 Incorrigible Youths
4 Ravenous Bloodseeker
3 Drana, Liberator of Malakir
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4 Olivia, Mobilized for War
7 Mountain
7 Swamp
2 Cinder Barrens
4 Foreboding Ruins
4 Smoldering Marsh
Spells (9)
4 Fiery Temper
2 Lightning Axe
3 Avacyn's Judgment
1 Virulent Plague
2 Kolaghan's Command
3 Ultimate Price
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Duress
2 Self-Inflicted Wound
4 Transgress the Mind
Anyway, on to the list. Has any tribal strategy ever been Tier 1 while in standard? Not sure but not in recent memory. Same will hold true here. A Thunderbreak Regent would have been good in place of Bloodseeker(or maybe a 2/2 split with Av Dragon). Drana can drop to 2x. I'm shocked he played Cinder Barrens. Maybe it's just me, but Vamp aggro does not seem to work on it's own. It can form the shell, but needs help from outside the tribe. Maybe I just prefer the more Mid Range Version since no one has yet to show the all out Aggro version works from play testing.
Take a look at this thread with playtesting results: Seems Vamps will be important going forward but at least until next set, full tribal just isn't quite there: https://www.reddit.com/r/spikes/comments/4cgn0p/standard_more_rakdos_olivia_with_a_slight_twist/?sort=new
She is definitely strong enough to find a home somewhere but this isn't the deck. Maybe Zombies or some kind of graveyard deck where you dont have to waste mana and cast spells in order to get her to trigger.
I agree with him a fair bit, actually. Wx Humans has been wrecking me in my testing.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
In straight aggro, yeah the white guys can go wide better than we can. Evasion should be much more common in vampires to get thru cluttered boards.
It's funny how the little things would help the deck so much. What if youths had flying or menace? What if a couple of them had an undying effect(or something like sac another creature to regenerate target vampire to simulate their feeding)? Why in the world do none of them have lifelink...isn't that like Vampires thing...to drain life.
It's so close. I think Eldritch moon will see the culmination of a true, tourny level proper Vamp tribal deck. Until then, I'm happy with a B/R aggro or midrange running 8-12x of the best Vamps at the very least....at the end of the day, it's just a card game.
What does the WG list look like. Does it run any of the green werewolves
The problem with many of those is if you're going total aggro, it kills your guys too. Mid Rangey builds are safer. Virulent Plague is a must have sideboard if tokens blows up.
Also. Two cards that could fit well in either version are Pitiless Horde and Goldnight Castigator. You obviously don't want both unless you plan to take 4 damage every turn. Both add burst damage against our traditionally weak matchups like controlly mid range.
It looks like this:
4 Canopy Vista
4 Fortified Village
1 Tranquil Expanse
3 Westvale Abbey // Ormendahl, Profane Prince
13 Plains
4 Dragon Hunter
3 Town Gossipmonger // Incited Rabble
3 Kytheon, Hero of Akros // Gideon, Battle-Forged
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Hanweir Militia Captain // Westvale Cult Leader
4 Archangel of Tithes
2 Sigarda, Heron's Grace
3 Silkwrap
3 Declaration in Stone
2 Always Watching
I think he made a typo though, since that puts him at 61 cards. My guess is -1 plains or -1 expanse.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
4 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Insolent Neonate
2 Indulgent Aristocrat
4 Asylum Visitor
4 Heir of Falkenrath
4 Liliana, Heretical Healer
2 Fleshbag Marauder
2 Kalitas, traitor of Ghet
4 Fiery Temper
3 Avacyn's Judgment
4 Call the Bloodline
Lands: 23
4 Foreboding Ruins
4 Smoldering Marsh
7 Swamp
8 Mountain
Maybe an aggro flyers deck is the way to go?
With 25 lands and 8 non creatures it can be a bit difficult to hit. Personally the lists I'm trying are running Company, but I don't run Silkwrap right now.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
I just know there is a good list with a Vamp shell somewhere. There are too many moving parts for there not to be. Also, you're not running Olivia which I know some agree with but without her, what's the point in doing vampires.
I think what we'll find out is for Vamps to work, and by proxy this style deck, is they have to have evasion. We can't compete with small creatures 1 for 1 because Green and White do it better. We can't out control U/W B/W or U/B. I think the trick to these creatures is much like Dragons. Curve can be 2-5 CMC and just start with Heir and Olivia then build from there. Try adding H Walkers. Add Goldnight Castigator and T Regent. Try Goblin DD and DL Kolaghan. Everyone, including myself, thought Wizards basically built a Tier 1 Vamp tribal deck for us and that doesn't seem to be the case.
We'll just need to do what Abzan did. Look at each curve slot and pick the most efficient creature there. I have no doubt Vamps will form an 8-12x shell but don't get hung up on having to have 20+ of them unless you find they are worth it in testing. Also, madness appears to be a more powerful but also more tricky mechanic to build around than say Prowess so also don't feel like you need to have 8-12 madness cards. Think of it like gravy.
If you find an aggro version of Vamps that has alot of favorable matchups, def share it but it seams we are finding out the short term future for Vamps is aggro mid range.
This is all assuming you're building the deck for FNMs PTQs etc. If you're just playing for fun or want alot of flavor, Vamps are cool and should only get better next set.
Remember this: R/B Dragons was a fringe deck(after Theros rotated...before, it was a very solid archtype with Rabblemaster and Stormbreath) until Tom Ross had the revelation to add Thopter synergies and took it all the way to a top 4 and resulting 8-9% of the meta game. It was then hated out by Mardu Green but that's how meta games work. I guess what I'm saying is we all, including myself, need to think outside the box.
What do you think of
3x Falkenrath Gorger
3x Goblin Dark-Dwellers
4x Heir of Falkenrath
3x Incorrigible Youths
3x Insolent Neonate
3x Olivia, Mobilized for War
4x Thunderbreak Regent
3x Brute Strength
4x Fiery Temper
4x Foreboding Ruins
8x Mountain
4x Smoldering Marsh
8x Swamp
Everything but the Gorger has some form of evasion the GDD lets us replay all our non creature spells. Maybe +1 olivia -1 GDD to make sure we have the best chance to cast it turn 3