Now that the entire set has been spoiled, we can begin posting decklists here. This thread is to be used for the Red Black Madness Deck. Doesn't necessarily have to be vampire tribal or even straight up aggro.
Not so much a madness deck, but it's RB with Fiery Temper. One question for these decks with all this discard is how many lands we should be running, since we can just pitch any excess if we need to. It seems like the count should be higher than normal decks of this aggressiveness just to increase the reliability.
This is the list I am currently testing. Does anyone have control sideboard tech? Every time I tested against them they'd either hit a t4 Languish or t5 Planar Outburst, followed by an answer to every card I played after that.
I'm just going the route of using Duress for that.
I really think Sinister Concoction will be a very good card going forward for this deck. It's a turn one drop that we can save for when we need and can get a discard outlet and destroy a creature in the process. I've also been looking at Ghoulsteed.
I'm planning on going away from the vampire tribal route and go more for cards that give value or those that deal as much damage as possible as quickly as possible.
Aussie I would say Duress transgress the mind (I was leaning to transgress because of delirium and it can get rid of problematic creatures as well), but duress is a turn one play.
I guess no one thinks that first strike enchantment is a good idea?
Aussie I would say Duress transgress the mind (I was leaning to transgress because of delirium and it can get rid of problematic creatures as well), but duress is a turn one play.
I guess no one thinks that first strike enchantment is a good idea?
Whoops! This is my first time playing black in constructed, but I'm still surprised that hadn't occurred to me. Thanks!
During my testing I found that madness used traditionally was underpowered. There were a few times that I got a dream start 3rd turn Incorrigible Youths and just got out classed. I was very disappointed with the aggro aspects. Also the discard outlets were not useful/repeatable at all.
I found that Call the Bloodline is the best card in the deck. It really gives the deck a lot of power and is the main madness enabler. With Falkenrath Gorger in play, It allows for the deck to play most of its creatures at instant speed. In fact, most cards in the deck have madness outright or are a vampire.
Olivia, Mobilized for War has been ok but not great. Helps with the aggressive draws. For the most part It is a secondary madness enabler and a 3/3 flyer for 3.
Drana, Liberator of Malakir is a must kill lord. Since its a vampire, it can be played for madness. Many times this is played at the end of an opponents turn.
Murderous Compulsion is a card that was desperately needed. It removes most things with madness can be used at instant speed.
Avacyn's Judgment is a card i missed judged at first. It is really good. Late game becomes a rolling thunder Really good against thopter tokens.
The issue seams to be non creature spells with madness. Fiery Temper is awesome but I feel like we need one more burn spell. I think T Regent will prove to have a space in this deck along with Kalitas since both are super high value creatures.
Straight up aggro doesn't seem to be the best option because we don't have enough really good burn spells to discard and go to the dome. Something like lightning strike or searing blood to go along with fiery temper would push it to the aggro side.
SSG just posted a video of a b/r vamp vs u/b reanimator. I wont spoil it but vmaps looked weak...really weak...but I think it was the build and also it was an aggro creature deck vs mid range...The only deck mid range has an inherent advantage over is creature aggro, which is what Ross played it as.
I think the meta will prove at least for this set, a dedicated madness deck isn't powerful enough for r/b. The curve gorger into falkenrath, into olivia into Regent/kalitas/drana(remember with gorger out, even Kalitas comes down with haste when played via olivia) is the core we want to keep. Then supplement them with a couple other high value 4x creatures and then add burn and removal.
It's basically this sets version of R/B dragons with the punch coming one turn earlier. Even H Walker may prove to be good in the deck.
Alms of the veign may be the psuedo burn spell we are looking for.
Also, if you're going super creature heavy, something like gravepurge out of the sideboard should be very good against removal heavy decks if you're maintaining a super low curve. Little less good if you're playing my more mid rangy version....tho it would fight space with macabre waltz....testing would tell which is better. If you're curve is higher, then waltz. If super low, the gravepurge since you'll be able to cast 3 or 4 creatures after a board sweep.
Malevelent whispers would have been insane in that match listed on SSG.
I definitely like what I'm seeing in this thread, so I'll give it a go with what I'm brewing so far; even though I'm not heavily relying on the Madness mechanic.
I felt like the Madness element was way too all-in and not worth the risk. Instead, I shifted more towards the evasive elements of the creatures available. Additionally, I think Olivia's Bloodsworn is quite underrated at the moment. It can function as a late game hasted creature (or a critter after a wipe) and makes all of our vampires immediate threats. Just my 2c.
I think Olivia is overrated. Also, I think this shell wants to be low to the ground, so maybe Kalitas would only be in the sideboard. Drana also seems slightly slow, but maybe she deserves a spot.
So nobody thinks Indulgent Aristocrat is any good? I mean yeah you have to sac a creature but it still gives all vamps a counter. Plus if paired with Call the Bloodline this could be interesting. Just a thought, destroy my logic as you will.
So nobody thinks Indulgent Aristocrat is any good? I mean yeah you have to sac a creature but it still gives all vamps a counter. Plus if paired with Call the Bloodline this could be interesting. Just a thought, destroy my logic as you will.
The problem with Indulgent Aristocrat is that it is too slow. It is basically just a 1/1 lifelink as your 1-drop. I don't think that kind of a card has enough affect on the game to warrant taking up a slot in the deck. Its activated ability could prove to be useful at times, but how often are you actually going to use it? You'd need to get to a point where you have an extra creature that you could sacrifice, 2 open mana available, and also enough other vampires to make sacrificing the creature worth it.
Indulgent Aristocrat is a good card for a slower strategy looking to go wider with just vampires, but a lot of these decks are looking to just kill opponents with flyers on turn 4. You're likely just seeing 3 points of power for 3 mana on turn 4 from this card, so there are better options for that.
I could see it being a good sideboard card against green decks when they start boarding in Plummet or reach creatures, or just a good tribal card when things slow down a little.
Right now RB feels like it has a lot of depth, between Madness, vampires, and dragons, plus having some very aggressive options as well as a lot of ways to generate value. I haven't started working on a sideboard plan yet, but transforming from something super aggressive to extreme value is probably pretty easy.
I think Olivia is overrated. Also, I think this shell wants to be low to the ground, so maybe Kalitas would only be in the sideboard. Drana also seems slightly slow, but maybe she deserves a spot.
IMO to not run Olivia is basically to not run the best card in the deck. The list will def need to be tested and optimized. We have no idea what the meta game will shape up to be but it seams clear that mid rangey control decks will be plentiful. As such, I think the deck adopt a R/B Dragon style approach and go more mid rangey while maintaining early game pressure. Drana Kalitas Olivia and T Regent will be my 4 core creatures. Legends being 3x(Kalitas 2x and 1x SB) with Regent being 4. I think Olivia's bloodsworn is another way to get three of those creatures hasty. Youths,Heir, and Gorger would round out my creatures. All said, the 24-28 creatures seams a good number. Fiery Temper, Lightning Ax and a couple of the new black removal cards seem perfect.
Also, 4 toughness seams to be the toughness level de jure for standard playable big threats and as such, as Nevelo mentioned earlier, Ex Firecraft I think will start seeing more play. This card was really hyped up and I think eclipsed $10 at one point. It can also finish off an opp from 4 life.
Again, this is a very rough draft. Perhaps the more low to the ground aggro is the better option. Perhaps if there were a proper Vamp lord to give +1 counters, a full vamp tribal would be great but I think Vamps will be the core of the deck and the best version will bring in high value threats like Regent.
Build the deck like you assume Olivia will die and the deck will be better IMO. Much like Jace decks build assuming Jace dies. Also, dedicated graveyard hate is a must out of the sideboard. Delirium looks to be easier to achieve than originally thought.
If you are going to jam a bunch of 3 and 4 drops, you are better off playing a good stuff midrange deck rather than a forced tribal synergy deck.
Olivia is a 3/3 flyer for 3, which is solid, but I don't think it matches up well with a lot of the other likely meta creatures (Thunderbreak, Avacyn, Dragonlords). When you get triggers, it's likely a win-more situation. Hence why think she's overrated, and why this deck is probably better off playing the aggro game.
It will definitely need to be tested. Could see it as a SB card for Control matches to refuel. If we need that 1 extra madness enabler, could see it main. It may fight for space with Macabre Waltz tho.
Definitely welcome all of your ideas. I think the most valuable posts from now on will be playtesting results as the deck seams to be a diamond in the rough, which is why I'm not happy SSG did that play test with a completely unoptimized list, but it did point out some strategy ideas.
If you are going to jam a bunch of 3 and 4 drops, you are better off playing a good stuff midrange deck rather than a forced tribal synergy deck.
Olivia is a 3/3 flyer for 3, which is solid, but I don't think it matches up well with a lot of the other likely meta creatures (Thunderbreak, Avacyn, Dragonlords). When you get triggers, it's likely a win-more situation. Hence why think she's overrated, and why this deck is probably better off playing the aggro game.
I agree in the sense that there will be two different versions of the deck, much like Abzan had a mid range and an aggro version. Without a proper vampire lord, I don't think a pure vamp tribal deck is the most efficient deck.
It certainly forms the core of the deck but doesn't need the deck to be all vampires. At this point, there are so many new moving parts it will take a bit for the best decks to float to the top. I was surprised on how many great cards could fit into the deck revealed on the last day alone.
Alms of the Vein for instance is an insane card worthy of this deck. All just my opinion. Even the first SSG open won't tell us what the best deck is because it's such a dramatic shift in standard. The last rotation, alot of the top decks survived, and even improved with battle lands. I don't think 75-80% of the current top decks will survive rotation. Ramp and Eldrazi are about it IMO.
I'm not completely convinced on many of the Vampires it's usual to see in this kind of decks, such as falkenrath gorger, Heir of falkenrath or Incorrigible Youths. I don't think they're bad, but I prefer to try other cards, like my beloved Sin prodder. The thing with this little guy is he puts a lot of pressure on the opponent's side, forcing him to take several poinst of damage while he's beaten by tiny creatures and suffering spells to the face. Another great thing I found out is how easy is to gain life with this deck. From Liliana, to Alms of the vein or call the bloodline tokens, facing aggro decks won't be a problemm with the right timing.
I wanted to make sure I had enough discard outlets that didn't need mana to be activated, and I came up with 10 cards, being Liliana, Heretical healer the real star: While she stays on board she's a solid beater with lifelink, but when she transforms...free madness every turn, and the opponent loses a card. Or use her second ability to get on board Sin prodder or Insolent neonate to sac him again and draw.
The deck has 14 cards with madness, all of them quite resourceful played at the end of the opponent's turn. Of course the main concern of such a mechanic is not having any cards on hand on turn 4-5, and that's why Prodder, Asylum Visitor (Phyrexian Arena with legs, and look: if the opp doesn't have any cards, you ALSO draw on his turn) and tormenting voice are for.
Still tweaking the manabase, but 22 lands seem enough. Will update with sideboard ASAP.
4x Alms of the Vein
4x Fiery Temper
Creatures (28)
4x Olivia, Mobilized for War
3x Drana, Liberator of Malakir
4x Heir of Falkenrath
4x Ravenous Bloodseeker
4x Falkenrath Gorger
4x Incorrigible Youths
4x Asylum Visitor
1x Zurgo Bellstriker
8x Mountain
8x Swamp
4x Foreboding Ruins
4x Smoldering Marsh
4 Insolent Neonate
3 Zurgo Bellstriker
4 Heir of Falkenrath
4 Asylum Visitor
4 Olivia's Bloodsworn
4 Olivia, Mobilized for War
4 Drana, Liberator of Malakir
4 Mindwrack Demon
4 fiery temper
2 alms of the vein
Lands (23)
2 Evolving Wilds
4 Foreboding Ruins
4 Smoldering Marsh
9 Swamp
4 Mountain
3 Asylum Visitor
2 Drana, Liberator of Malakir
4 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Heir of Falkenrath
3 Incorrigible Youths
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3 Olivia, Mobilized for War
2 Ravenous Bloodseeker
8 Mountain
4 Smoldering Marsh
7 Swamp
4 Fiery Temper
4 Lightning Axe
2 Ultimate Price
4 Tormenting Voice
StandardArena:U/R Drakes
Modern
URStormUR
UBRDeath's ShadowUBR
I really think Sinister Concoction will be a very good card going forward for this deck. It's a turn one drop that we can save for when we need and can get a discard outlet and destroy a creature in the process. I've also been looking at Ghoulsteed.
I'm planning on going away from the vampire tribal route and go more for cards that give value or those that deal as much damage as possible as quickly as possible.
For now this is my list, subject to change.
4 Assylum Visitor
4 Heir of Falkenrath
4 Pale Rider of Trostad
3 Incorrible Youths
4 Insolent Neonate
3 Avaricious Dragon
4 Alms of the Vein
4 Exquisite Firecraft
4 Fiery Temper
4 Sinister Concoction
4 Foreboding Ruins
4 Smoldering Marsh
I guess no one thinks that first strike enchantment is a good idea?
StandardArena:U/R Drakes
Modern
URStormUR
UBRDeath's ShadowUBR
4 Falkenrath Gorger
3 Insolent Neonate
4 Asylum Visitor
4 Heir of Falkenrath
3 Olivia, Mobilized for War
3 Incorrigible Youths
2 Drana, Liberator of Malakir
4 Fiery Temper
3 Avacyn's Judgment
3 Murderous Compulsion
3 Call the Bloodline
Lands: 24
4 Foreboding Ruins
4 Smoldering Marsh
1 Cinder Barrens
7 Swamp
8 Mountain
Reasoning
Still working on the Sideboard.
3 Duress
1 Avacyn's Judgment
1 Murderous Compulsion
1 Call the Bloodline
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 To the Slaughter
2 Elusive Tormentor
StandardArena:U/R Drakes
Modern
URStormUR
UBRDeath's ShadowUBR
Straight up aggro doesn't seem to be the best option because we don't have enough really good burn spells to discard and go to the dome. Something like lightning strike or searing blood to go along with fiery temper would push it to the aggro side.
SSG just posted a video of a b/r vamp vs u/b reanimator. I wont spoil it but vmaps looked weak...really weak...but I think it was the build and also it was an aggro creature deck vs mid range...The only deck mid range has an inherent advantage over is creature aggro, which is what Ross played it as.
I think the meta will prove at least for this set, a dedicated madness deck isn't powerful enough for r/b. The curve gorger into falkenrath, into olivia into Regent/kalitas/drana(remember with gorger out, even Kalitas comes down with haste when played via olivia) is the core we want to keep. Then supplement them with a couple other high value 4x creatures and then add burn and removal.
It's basically this sets version of R/B dragons with the punch coming one turn earlier. Even H Walker may prove to be good in the deck.
Also, if you're going super creature heavy, something like gravepurge out of the sideboard should be very good against removal heavy decks if you're maintaining a super low curve. Little less good if you're playing my more mid rangy version....tho it would fight space with macabre waltz....testing would tell which is better. If you're curve is higher, then waltz. If super low, the gravepurge since you'll be able to cast 3 or 4 creatures after a board sweep.
Malevelent whispers would have been insane in that match listed on SSG.
4 Smoldering Marsh
4 Foreboding Ruins
8 Mountain
8 Swamp
Spells (8)
4 Fiery Temper
4 Kolaghan's Command
Creatures(28)
4 Falkenrath Gorger
1 Dragonmaster Outcast
3 Asylum Visitor
4 Heir of Falkenrath
4 Olivia's Bloodsworn
4 Olivia, Mobilized for War
3 Drana, Liberator of Malakir
4 Thunderbreak Regent
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4 Transgress the Mind
11 Stuff
I felt like the Madness element was way too all-in and not worth the risk. Instead, I shifted more towards the evasive elements of the creatures available. Additionally, I think Olivia's Bloodsworn is quite underrated at the moment. It can function as a late game hasted creature (or a critter after a wipe) and makes all of our vampires immediate threats. Just my 2c.
4 Heir of Falkenrath
4 Ravenous Bloodseeker
4 Asylum Visitor
4 Olivia's Bloodsworn
4 Incorrigible Youths
4 Fiery Impulse
4 Fiery Temper
4 Lightning Axe
4 Exquisite Firecraft
6 Swamp
10 Mountain
4 Smoldering Marsh
4 Foreboding Ruins
Rough sketch. Wish there was another good 1-drop. Incorrigible youths is much better than I initially thought.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
The problem with Indulgent Aristocrat is that it is too slow. It is basically just a 1/1 lifelink as your 1-drop. I don't think that kind of a card has enough affect on the game to warrant taking up a slot in the deck. Its activated ability could prove to be useful at times, but how often are you actually going to use it? You'd need to get to a point where you have an extra creature that you could sacrifice, 2 open mana available, and also enough other vampires to make sacrificing the creature worth it.
I could see it being a good sideboard card against green decks when they start boarding in Plummet or reach creatures, or just a good tribal card when things slow down a little.
Right now RB feels like it has a lot of depth, between Madness, vampires, and dragons, plus having some very aggressive options as well as a lot of ways to generate value. I haven't started working on a sideboard plan yet, but transforming from something super aggressive to extreme value is probably pretty easy.
I like this list a fair bit. Have you considered Zurgo as another 1 drop despite his lack of vamp synergy, or do you think he's just too low power?
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Also, 4 toughness seams to be the toughness level de jure for standard playable big threats and as such, as Nevelo mentioned earlier, Ex Firecraft I think will start seeing more play. This card was really hyped up and I think eclipsed $10 at one point. It can also finish off an opp from 4 life.
Again, this is a very rough draft. Perhaps the more low to the ground aggro is the better option. Perhaps if there were a proper Vamp lord to give +1 counters, a full vamp tribal would be great but I think Vamps will be the core of the deck and the best version will bring in high value threats like Regent.
Build the deck like you assume Olivia will die and the deck will be better IMO. Much like Jace decks build assuming Jace dies. Also, dedicated graveyard hate is a must out of the sideboard. Delirium looks to be easier to achieve than originally thought.
Olivia is a 3/3 flyer for 3, which is solid, but I don't think it matches up well with a lot of the other likely meta creatures (Thunderbreak, Avacyn, Dragonlords). When you get triggers, it's likely a win-more situation. Hence why think she's overrated, and why this deck is probably better off playing the aggro game.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
It will definitely need to be tested. Could see it as a SB card for Control matches to refuel. If we need that 1 extra madness enabler, could see it main. It may fight for space with Macabre Waltz tho.
Definitely welcome all of your ideas. I think the most valuable posts from now on will be playtesting results as the deck seams to be a diamond in the rough, which is why I'm not happy SSG did that play test with a completely unoptimized list, but it did point out some strategy ideas.
I agree in the sense that there will be two different versions of the deck, much like Abzan had a mid range and an aggro version. Without a proper vampire lord, I don't think a pure vamp tribal deck is the most efficient deck.
It certainly forms the core of the deck but doesn't need the deck to be all vampires. At this point, there are so many new moving parts it will take a bit for the best decks to float to the top. I was surprised on how many great cards could fit into the deck revealed on the last day alone.
Alms of the Vein for instance is an insane card worthy of this deck. All just my opinion. Even the first SSG open won't tell us what the best deck is because it's such a dramatic shift in standard. The last rotation, alot of the top decks survived, and even improved with battle lands. I don't think 75-80% of the current top decks will survive rotation. Ramp and Eldrazi are about it IMO.
4 insolent neonate
4 asylum visitor
4 sin prodder
3 ravenous bloodseeker
3 Liliana, heretical healer
4 Fiery temper
4 Alms of the vein
3 Duress
2 Lightning axe
2 Murderous compulsion
2 Tormenting voice
3 call the bloodline
22 Lands
I'm not completely convinced on many of the Vampires it's usual to see in this kind of decks, such as falkenrath gorger, Heir of falkenrath or Incorrigible Youths. I don't think they're bad, but I prefer to try other cards, like my beloved Sin prodder. The thing with this little guy is he puts a lot of pressure on the opponent's side, forcing him to take several poinst of damage while he's beaten by tiny creatures and suffering spells to the face. Another great thing I found out is how easy is to gain life with this deck. From Liliana, to Alms of the vein or call the bloodline tokens, facing aggro decks won't be a problemm with the right timing.
I wanted to make sure I had enough discard outlets that didn't need mana to be activated, and I came up with 10 cards, being Liliana, Heretical healer the real star: While she stays on board she's a solid beater with lifelink, but when she transforms...free madness every turn, and the opponent loses a card. Or use her second ability to get on board Sin prodder or Insolent neonate to sac him again and draw.
The deck has 14 cards with madness, all of them quite resourceful played at the end of the opponent's turn. Of course the main concern of such a mechanic is not having any cards on hand on turn 4-5, and that's why Prodder, Asylum Visitor (Phyrexian Arena with legs, and look: if the opp doesn't have any cards, you ALSO draw on his turn) and tormenting voice are for.
Still tweaking the manabase, but 22 lands seem enough. Will update with sideboard ASAP.