Figure I would post my list since I went such a wildly different direction from most of you guys as far as creating a black devotion deck. This is the first of this topic I've seen.
Dark Prophecy is a necessary devotion enabler, not because it's incredibly strong (having no colorless cost) but because it's a noncreature permanent. Creatures are too easily removed but Connections can't hold the fort alone and Whip is legendary. However, no card is worth using for devotion alone. Taking advantage of Prophecy requires a robust creature suite, so in a sense the deck is built around it.
That said, there are plenty of other reason to go small. Small guys allow you to curve into Prophecy, protecting your creatures from control's removal (unfortunately Anger thwarts dies triggers :rolleyes:) and aggro's blockers (losing in combat breaks even, trading in combat is an advantage). The upper end of the curve is already clogged with non-threats, particularly the three-spot with our devotion-enabling card advantage engines. You simply can't wait until T4 to establish a board presence. Aggro already has you on the back foot by then, especially since removal is weak currently and all our draw power requires paying life, and Blue-based control has the better lategame if you don't apply early pressure.
Turn 4 is also the earliest Nykthos can turn a profit, so you want to be putting permanents onto the battlefield before then rather than casting discard, sitting on removal. Gray Merchant is similar to Fanatic of Mogis in RDW in that it's a huge Fireball of a curvetopper, take advantage of it by giving it the chance to be lethal through early aggro and not just a stabilizer against aggro (or our own card advantage engines). And when your CA engines are keeping your hand full, it's easier to drop a hand full of cheapies alongside a Merchant.
There's still kinks to work out but overall it's testing pretty well. I do wish I could fit in more removal or have some sort of sac outlet to more easily force a Whip-Merchant. And I had to drop to three Nykthos to make T3 Prophecy/Specter more reliable. :[
Misc. comments and pre-emptive question-answering:
Thrill-Kill Assassin is really damn good. It's a really strong aggro two-drop because the 3 Toughness makes it difficult for other weenies to trade with it and deathtouch lets it continue to swing even as larger blockers come into play (and trades up). And when you need it, they're blockers with deathtouch.
Conversely, Disciple of Phenax is really bad. I mean really guys, come on. Coercion hasn't been good in 15 years. It isn't even always Coercion and the pitiful body is hardly worth the extra :1mana:. While I'm at it, Corrupt is okay but in my experience you really don't want more than two max. It's a great way to pull yourself out of kill range from burn, haste, weenie swarm. Sometimes it nukes a 'walker. It's also :6mana:, restricts your mana base, and generally isn't strong enough to just drain face for the win.
Erebos' draw power is highly questionable. Paying 2 life is a tough pill to swallow, not to mention the mana cost and the fact he's a four-spot who only contributes 1 devotion to Gray Merchant. He might still be worth playing for the simple fact he's a 5/7 Indestructible for with some gravy anti-life against UWR/Mono-black, but eh I'm not convinced. Similarly, while Read the Bones is a perfectly good card, it's a Sorcery. It doesn't contribute to devotion like the Enchants do.
Dudes, you're playing way too much of our bad post-rotation removal. Is this not a Devotion topic? PERMANENTS! Although I gotta give it to the Pack Rat guy, at least that card channels unnecessary spells into providing devotion after all.
Alms beast is actually a solid card, surprisingly. He actually stalls my opponents simply because he survives almost everything and when paired with Erebos, he becomes a massive threat. Add into it the fact that his downside is easily taken care of, unlike Desecration Demon, he is really tough to get around. I mean, I have no problems giving life, because in the end, they are losing creatures while I swing, block, and play more threats. I am still not sure if he is technically better than Des though...
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Conversely, Disciple of Phenax is really bad. I mean really guys, come on. Coercion hasn't been good in 15 years. It isn't even always Coercion and the pitiful body is hardly worth the extra :1mana:. While I'm at it, Corrupt is okay but in my experience you really don't want more than two max. It's a great way to pull yourself out of kill range from burn, haste, weenie swarm. Sometimes it nukes a 'walker. It's also :6mana:, restricts your mana base, and generally isn't strong enough to just drain face for the win.
The power of disciple lies in the synergy. Devotion is a synergistic deck by definition, every card is janky, but it makes other better.
Even in your list disciple would be more than just 1/3 + coercion.
It's 1/3 + coercion + drain 2 + 2 mana from Nykthos + lose 1, draw 1 on death + recursion from whip.
For example, merchant, specter and shred freak are also pretty bad by themselves, but you play them because synergy.
I want to add in 2 Hero's Downfall to the mainboard but I have no idea what to cut. Sire of Insanity is a must answer threat on the board that I'm testing. Pharika's Cure's are absolutely needed mainboard due to 3x Thoughtseize and 3x Underworld Connections. Hero's Downfall is mainly for dealing with Obzedat. I'd like to get more people's opinions on Erebos, God of the Dead as well. I cut him due to simply having better threat options and more utility cards that get the job done better.
Alms beast is actually a solid card, surprisingly. He actually stalls my opponents simply because he survives almost everything and when paired with Erebos, he becomes a massive threat. Add into it the fact that his downside is easily taken care of, unlike Desecration Demon, he is really tough to get around. I mean, I have no problems giving life, because in the end, they are losing creatures while I swing, block, and play more threats. I am still not sure if he is technically better than Des though...
Alms Beast is a staple over in the BW Midrage thread. It acts as a hard to remove blocked vs Aggro, and a quick beater vs other midrange and control.It has a large body, and dodges doom blade and Ultimate Price, along with every burn spell being unable to take it down by itself. you don't really even need to pair it with Erebos for it to be a threat, though giving it Lifelink via the whip is quite nice.
that being said, why not run DD and Alms side by side? they're both undercosted 6/6 beatsticks that can contribute to your devotion plan.
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Alms Beast is a staple over in the BW Midrage thread. It acts as a hard to remove blocked vs Aggro, and a quick beater vs other midrange and control.It has a large body, and dodges doom blade and Ultimate Price, along with every burn spell being unable to take it down by itself. you don't really even need to pair it with Erebos for it to be a threat, though giving it Lifelink via the whip is quite nice.
that being said, why not run DD and Alms side by side? they're both undercosted 6/6 beatsticks that can contribute to your devotion plan.
My original plan was to play the deck as B/W Midrange before Theros got revealed, but then quickly saw just how strong Black was in Theros, and how little White had improved for the deck, and decided to slowly make a transition into a B/w Devotion deck. I had Alms Beast already, and had never planned on getting Desecration Demon until recently.
I just have to order my Demons. I might try a split and see how it plays, but I generally find that in situations like that, it is always one card out-playing the other. I have had terrific results with Alms Beast, and am looking forward to seeing how Desecration Demon does in its stead.
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My original plan was to play the deck as B/W Midrange before Theros got revealed, but then quickly saw just how strong Black was in Theros, and how little White had improved for the deck, and decided to slowly make a transition into a B/w Devotion deck. I had Alms Beast already, and had never planned on getting Desecration Demon until recently.
Primarly the W was just for the Ghost Council, BBoV, Alms Beast, and Sin Collector (at least in mine), so honestly, it shouldn't be terribly difficult to incorporate enough W for some semblance of BW MidRange and still keep your devotion theme.
It would also open up Merciless Eviction if there's absolutely something you can't handle.
would the interaction bewteen Grey Merchant and the 2nd ability of Vizkopa Guildmage be too cutesy for this deck?
Primarly the W was just for the Ghost Council, BBoV, Alms Beast, and Sin Collector (at least in mine), so honestly, it shouldn't be terribly difficult to incorporate enough W for some semblance of BW MidRange and still keep your devotion theme.
It would also open up Merciless Eviction if there's absolutely something you can't handle.
would the interaction bewteen Grey Merchant and the 2nd ability of Vizkopa Guildmage be too cutesy for this deck?
Primarly the W was just for the Ghost Council, BBoV, Alms Beast, and Sin Collector (at least in mine), so honestly, it shouldn't be terribly difficult to incorporate enough W for some semblance of BW MidRange and still keep your devotion theme.
It would also open up Merciless Eviction if there's absolutely something you can't handle.
would the interaction bewteen Grey Merchant and the 2nd ability of Vizkopa Guildmage be too cutesy for this deck?
Primarly the W was just for the Ghost Council, BBoV, Alms Beast, and Sin Collector (at least in mine), so honestly, it shouldn't be terribly difficult to incorporate enough W for some semblance of BW MidRange and still keep your devotion theme.
It would also open up Merciless Eviction if there's absolutely something you can't handle.
would the interaction bewteen Grey Merchant and the 2nd ability of Vizkopa Guildmage be too cutesy for this deck?
Merciless Eviction is a good card that a white splash should definitely consider, but I'd say it's a meta call.
Debt to the Deathless is, from what I can tell, a slower Gray Merchant without a body. I wouldn't run it.
Also, the OP is in serious need of an update. I apologize, I'm smack dab in the middle of midterms, and I seriously overestimated how much time I had for Magic, but after my Circuits exam later today and I get home I'll start working on an update and add cards that have been discussed, since I'll be done for the week. I promise.
The power of disciple lies in the synergy. Devotion is a synergistic deck by definition, every card is janky, but it makes other better.
Even in your list disciple would be more than just 1/3 + coercion.
It's 1/3 + coercion + drain 2 + 2 mana from Nykthos + lose 1, draw 1 on death + recursion from whip.
For example, merchant, specter and shred freak are also pretty bad by themselves, but you play them because synergy.
Anyway, no one answered my fair points about Disciple of Phenax. Please discuss with something different from 'this card is awesome if you have other 5 cards and your opponent is watching you playing alone and he is keeping all his cards in his hands for 20+ turns'. Not to be rude or anything, but Primers are made to discuss about cards to improve the deck we're all playing, maybe I'm just mistaken and Disciple is a must-play. I'm trying to show you why you shouldn't play the card, and you should try to do the opposite with me
The thing I'd really want you to explain, it's why the hell you play Disciples and less than 4 Thoughtseize. If you want discard options, first you pick the best ones, and then you can think about others. You can't say you don't want the last Thoughtseize MD because of the life loss and because of the body (paying 3 more mana, and doing it 3 turn later!), because that tiny sorcery is just one of the best cards ever printed in the history of Magic, period. Go up to 4, and then some extra discard could make sense.
My reasons for not playing the card (not saying it's bad, only that it's not needed or we have better options):
- 4cc slot is really crowded in this deck, and we have better turn 4 plays. If I play removals in turn 2 and 3 I usally lay down an Underworld Connections to start drawing as soon as possibile and find other answers, and obviously Desecration Demon to ask your opponent for an answer.
- 1/3 body is not relevant, in this deck I'd like to have something that can swing for game, because it often has a hard time doing it. I would have played a 3/1 for example.
- it's an AWFUL topdeck. And this deck needs good topdecks, because it usually wins in the late game if you're not goldfishing. If you draw it against the usual aggro/midrange deck with no cards in hand, what do you do? Play your 1/3 that does nothing for 4 mana? We already have the same problem with Thoughtseize, but that's on a completely different power level, so we can accept that (and please, DON'T say that Disciple has a body so it's better than Thoughtseize, or everybody will be quitting your thread...). Well, in the late game it could do something against control, but in this matchup I would sideboard all of them out for Duress which is like 10 times better: against control you need to play your targeted discard in the same turn you play the card you want to win with (beater, burn to the face or Underworld Connections) to strip their answers and avoid lucky topdecks.
That being said, if you like the card keep playing it. I will test it, but the first time it does nothing I'm stripping it. I guess that will happen very soon.
Note: I was thinking about playing 2 Disciple of Phenax instead of 2 Corrupt today, but I tested my usual list. I never had them in my starting hand, but I won 2 games (on 4 played) with the damage from a topdecked Corrupt, while my opponent had enough power on the board to swing for the win next turn (BBoVs in the case, so no blocks). That was really lucky and it's not useful for statistics, but I guess Disciples would have been really bad in those situations...
Just play desecration demon and the whip and forget about disciple already.
Even Liliana of the dark realms is better at 4 mana and synergizes with corrupt which is really powerful in a monoblack deck.
Just play desecration demon and the whip and forget about disciple already. Even Liliana of the dark realms is better at 4 mana and synergizes with corrupt which is really powerful in a monoblack deck.
Nice, this is a good point I was missing. It's even more relevant if you're playing with a splash. Yes, targeted discard is not bad on turn 4, but if you can have a planeswalker with 'ramp'+removal/finisher at the same cost, that provides the same devotion and synergizes with other cards...
I've been playing with 2 liliana in my list, she's been amazing.
Her +1 ensures that you hit lands drops, her -3 is either repeatable removal or can pump a guy to win a game, and her ultimate is rediculous if you have alot of 4 drops in hand.
Whip+demon+erebos+whip back another demon+ gray merchant is something I was able to do once off of her ultimate, that's 11 damage off of the merchant trigger (counting liliana), and you can get 5 cards off of that lifegain with erebos.
She's very good, super underrated.
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Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
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Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
So I just ran this black devotion deck through a daily for the second time. I finished 2-2 both times (getting my 2nd loss in round 4 both times). My losses were to UW, RDW, RDW, and GW. I'm not too worried about the UW and GW matches because I've also been beating them. I won an 8-man and several 2-mans with the same list. I may need something a bit more to handle the RDW matches. This deck doesn't really have any good plays against RDW until turn 4 when you can lay a Desecretion Demon, but by then they can probably just keep tapping him down. You need to curve out perfectly and be on the play against a strong RDW opening. I saw a recent list that 4-0ed with Xathrid Necromancers and Kill Thrill Assassins; this could be the solution if not doubling with another color. (Merchant isn't very good if you have to trade your Lifebanes and Specters to survive to hopefully hit your 5th land) Anyway, here is what I have been playing:
I've been playing with 2 liliana in my list, she's been amazing.
Her +1 ensures that you hit lands drops, her -3 is either repeatable removal or can pump a guy to win a game, and her ultimate is rediculous if you have alot of 4 drops in hand.
Whip+demon+erebos+whip back another demon+ gray merchant is something I was able to do once off of her ultimate, that's 11 damage off of the merchant trigger (counting liliana), and you can get 5 cards off of that lifegain with erebos.
She's very good, super underrated.
You left out the part which she falls into, which 50% of the reason farseek was considered a remarkable card. Deck thinning, the longer she stays on board, the more likely you are to draw consistant threats/gas whichever term you so choose to use.
That is 0% of the reason farseek was played and I don't think Lily's deck thinning is worth any consideration in playing her or not
You obviously are highly informed. 2 reasons farseek was played was color fixing and deck thinning. Any avid Jund player from last season could tell you that answer.
Edit: Just to touch base, ignoring a pro side of a card just because you said so is bad logic in general.
You obviously are highly informed. 2 reasons farseek was played was color fixing and deck thinning. Any avid Jund player from last season could tell you that answer.
Edit: Just to touch base, ignoring a pro side of a card just because you said so is bad logic in general.
Farseek was played because fetching shock lands was awesome especially on turn 2. Deck thinning from removing lands is very marginal unless your removing several or drawing a lot of cards. A lo of statistics have been done for this in legacy regarding fetch lands, land counts and "real" cards drawn.
It is a very minor upside unless Liliana sticks on board for 4-5 turns but it is a upside.
You obviously are highly informed. 2 reasons farseek was played was color fixing and deck thinning. Any avid Jund player from last season could tell you that answer.
Edit: Just to touch base, ignoring a pro side of a card just because you said so is bad logic in general.
You can do your own simple math to discover that these farseek decks that only ran 4 "thinners" didn't run these cards to thin their decks. In fact the amount the deck got thinned of lands is so minuscule I would argue that it has absolutely no impact at all on selecting which card to run.
If deck thinning really was a strategy, cards like evolving wilds would see play just to fix the numbers. But since mathematics tells us that these probability differences are so minimal there is no upside to run these type of cards for these effects.
Lilianna is a fine, albeit very slow, card for a deck like this. I personally think she only has a place in the mono-black lists that run corrupt because the multi-colored decks do not need an excessive amount of lands for a card like corrupt.
You can do your own simple math to discover that these farseek decks that only ran 4 "thinners" didn't run these cards to thin their decks. In fact the amount the deck got thinned of lands is so minuscule I would argue that it has absolutely no impact at all on selecting which card to run.
If deck thinning really was a strategy, cards like evolving wilds would see play just to fix the numbers. But since mathematics tells us that these probability differences are so minimal there is no upside to run these type of cards for these effects.
Lilianna is a fine, albeit very slow, card for a deck like this. I personally think she only has a place in the mono-black lists that run corrupt because the multi-colored decks do not need an excessive amount of lands for a card like corrupt.
Even if thinning your deck leads to only a 1% increased win expectancy (and I'd argue that it is at least that much), it is something worth noting. That does not mean it is something that is *necessary*, simply that it is a nice bonus if you'd be playing the card regardless of that upside.
That being said, I simply don't think Liliana is good enough for play. Thinning and acceleration are good things...except when you have nothing to accelerate in to. Her +1 and her ultimate are both very mediocre. In addition, her - ability simply isn't enough. If she started with 4 loyalty, maybe. But she doesn't. If the deck were more control oriented, and additional lands mattered (think Corrupt) then she'd be in the discussion.
Tonight, I got to test out 2 different styles of Black Devotion, B/w and Mono-Black. For those of you interested in my B/w variant, please check back a page or so. The results from the B/w variant were not as well as I hoped. I always play best of 5, and these were against tournament-ready decks. In the end, it went 2-3 vs. Esper Control, 0-3 vs. B/R Midrange, 2-2-1 vs. RDW, and 0-3 vs. Gruul Midrange. This was a far cry from what other B/w variants could do, mostly thanks to my mana-restraints.
As a whole, the deck functioned far smoother than it had prior. This variant went 3-1 vs. Esper Control, 3-0 vs. B/R Midrange, 3-2 vs. RDW, and 3-1 vs. Gruul Midrange. The players I played against wanted to get practice in for the State Opens this weekend, and were more than happy to help me get reliable information for the deck.
Over all, I am going to go over the cards in my deck, and point out how strong they were against the above decks. This will be a long post, so sorry about the length.
Creatures
Pack Rat - Surprisingly powerful, despite the card disadvantage you seem to put up with. There are some great combos utilizing him, and ultimately he becomes a great type of utility.
Strongest against - Esper Control. Get him out early, and start popping tokens when you don't need a card. Since Esper is basically dead until later on, it is easy to overwhelm them. Be careful, though, because Detention Sphere will ruin your fun.
Weakest against - RDW. They push out creatures far faster than you could hope to put up with. Use them to trade with their early creatures, and hope for the best.
Verdict: Play them according to your meta, but I highly recommend giving him a chance.
Thrill-Kill Assassin - Rather unimpressive against Control, but a terror to creature-based decks.
Strongest against - RDW. With this match up, you need to understand what your opponent plans to do, and then either Unleash or not accordingly. It puts your opponent in a real awkward spot when a 1/2 with Deathtouch hits the field and they lack a burn spell to deal with it.
Weakest against - Control. Yes, you get him early, and can Unleash freely, but in the end, he is just a lackluster beater. The entire time I wished he was Thoughtseize.
Verdict: Use in a sideboard isn't out of the question, but honestly, I'd rather have Thoughtseize in main.
Nightveil Specter - 2/3 Flying and use of an opponent's deck for 3 is nothing to laugh about. If it is not answered, your opponent feels the pressure.
Strongest against - Control. Simple fact of the matter is, Control-based decks need their cards more than we need ours. NVS is a huge threat thanks to us having access to our opponent's deck, and since Control is slow to get rolling, it is especially brutal.
Weak Against - RDW. I will admit right now that NVS took more bolts to the face than Frankenstein during a thunderstorm, but this is not exactly a bad thing. I like to view it as one less burn-spell that could hurt us in the end.
Verdict: Play him if you play Mono-Black or B/u Devotion. He isn't a clock for the end of the game, but a clock until we rid our opponents' of a vital card. Plus, he draws removal from our finishers.
Strongest Against - Control. Anytime you have a 6/6 Flying for 4, Control ends up getting hurt a lot, because they want to start their game around that time.
Weak Against - RDW/Gruul/Creature based Decks. If a deck drops a ton of creatures, Des is going to have some trouble, but at the same time, it is inevitable that he will connect. It just might take a while.
Verdict: I have played Des. I have played Alms. Truth is, Des is the superior choice. Double Black in the mana makes him better cost-wise, and Flying makes a world of difference in a meta where the biggest beaters are stuck on the ground. If you can afford him, play him.
Strongest Against - Control, for the most part. If you can play a bunch of permanents, you have a better chance to win.
Weakest Against - Aggro, or decks with a lot of removal. This is simply because of Devotion.
Verdict: If you play Devotion Black, and you don't run him, please join the rest of the bad players.
Abhorrent Overlord - This card was really just filling in an empty spot, but I was surprised by his performance.
Strongest against - Control, again. If you hardcast him, you should win easily. A favorite trick of mine, however, is to discard him with Pack Rat, and then bring back with the Whip. Makes for one powerful move, netting at least 4 1/1 Flyers.
Weakest Against - Aggressive decks. You will have little chance to hardcast him, and if you do, they are doing something wrong.
Verdict: As a 1-of silver bullet, he works pretty well. I am not sure if I'd take him or Erebos, since I have had little chance to play with them both, but he seems to have a bit more power than Lord Death.
Sorceries, Instants, and Enchantments
Pharika's Cure - Surprisingly efficient. I was HIGHLY skeptical, but tested it out anyways. I am glad I didn't let my skepticism get in the way of testing it.
Strongest Against - Aggro. Flat out, if you can kill something with it, do it. Aggro needs their creatures, and each one lost hurts them. If they have mana-dorks, kill them first with it, because that will hurt far more than taking out a single beater.
Weakest Against - Control. Honestly, the first game against Esper Control, I used this to try and get an unexpected Aetherling kill, and it worked. Once. He knew I was out of of Doom Blades and Downfalls thanks to his threats, but didn't expect me to have the Cure in my hand, and tapped out to swing with an 8/1 Unblockable. He never made that mistake again.
Verdict: This is VERY meta-dependant. If your meta is full of Aggro decks, run it main. If it is full of Control, play it in the side and use something more permanent.
Weak Against - Decks that do not use creatures or planeswalkers, or creatures with hexproof or protection.
Verdict: Run at least 3 of them. They hit so much that it is unreal. And all for 3 mana.
Whip of Erebos - I was excited for this card since it was spoiled. Many people focused on the Hammer, some on the Bow, but not me. I saw Lifelink, I saw Reanimate, and I saw the neat little package that gave us both.
Strongest Against - Anything without Scavenging Ooze or Graveyard hate. We want creatures, we want life, we use this to get both.
Weak Against - Graveyard Hate, Erebos. To put it simply, we like gaining life, and we like recursion. Taking those away from us makes us sad.
Verdict: If you play creatures, play them. Lifelink alone can be a game changer, but the recursion makes for some sick interactions and set-ups with Pack Rat.
In the end, I am much happier with the Mono-Black variant than B/w. Thanks to the Whip, I often wonder if I could place in a few [card]Ashen Rider[card]s just to use the recursion ability to exile things. I might eventually make a deck that utilizes the Whip to its fullest Reanimation capabilities, but for now, Mono-Black Devotion seems to be feasible as a tournament-level deck.
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Just to clarify that at the end of said article, the author said he cannot "argue with the people who tell us in articles that they’ve observed the thinning effect of fetch lands except to point out that thinning is an extremely difficult thing to see during a game." Basically, he can't say that they are wrong because it is difficult to discern the exact amount of thinning the cards do.
Also, he was mostly referring to Legacy, which has far more burn spells than Standard, and said that "only a suicidally reckless aggro deck can afford 4 life for a card, and those decks can’t afford to wait 20+ turns for it." This is a vastly different area than Type 2.
Using the cards strictly for deck thinning is a bad idea, yes, but the decks that use them do not use them just to thin their deck out, but to ensure that they get the right land as well. Plus they have 2 less cards in the deck: the one they cast and the one they got. That is a total of 8 cards in the end if they run 4 copies of the tutor.
I used to run Evolving Wilds and Terramorphic Expanse to both thin my deck and ensure I got the right type of land I needed. But that was ages ago, it seems.
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4 Tormented Hero
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Rakdos Shred-Freak
4 Thrill-Kill Assassin
4 Nightveil Specter
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
4 Dark Prophecy
3 Underworld Connections
3 Whip of Erebos
Instants
3 Hero's Downfall
Land
20 Swamp
3 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2 Pithing Needle
3 Liliana of the Dark Realms
2 Dark Betrayal
4 Thoughtseize
4 Lifebane Zombie
Hard aggro. Why?
Dark Prophecy is a necessary devotion enabler, not because it's incredibly strong (having no colorless cost) but because it's a noncreature permanent. Creatures are too easily removed but Connections can't hold the fort alone and Whip is legendary. However, no card is worth using for devotion alone. Taking advantage of Prophecy requires a robust creature suite, so in a sense the deck is built around it.
That said, there are plenty of other reason to go small. Small guys allow you to curve into Prophecy, protecting your creatures from control's removal (unfortunately Anger thwarts dies triggers :rolleyes:) and aggro's blockers (losing in combat breaks even, trading in combat is an advantage). The upper end of the curve is already clogged with non-threats, particularly the three-spot with our devotion-enabling card advantage engines. You simply can't wait until T4 to establish a board presence. Aggro already has you on the back foot by then, especially since removal is weak currently and all our draw power requires paying life, and Blue-based control has the better lategame if you don't apply early pressure.
Turn 4 is also the earliest Nykthos can turn a profit, so you want to be putting permanents onto the battlefield before then rather than casting discard, sitting on removal. Gray Merchant is similar to Fanatic of Mogis in RDW in that it's a huge Fireball of a curvetopper, take advantage of it by giving it the chance to be lethal through early aggro and not just a stabilizer against aggro (or our own card advantage engines). And when your CA engines are keeping your hand full, it's easier to drop a hand full of cheapies alongside a Merchant.
There's still kinks to work out but overall it's testing pretty well. I do wish I could fit in more removal or have some sort of sac outlet to more easily force a Whip-Merchant. And I had to drop to three Nykthos to make T3 Prophecy/Specter more reliable. :[
Misc. comments and pre-emptive question-answering:
Currently Running:
Nothing, I have just gotten back after a long hiatus, and am just now starting to rebuild my collection.
The power of disciple lies in the synergy. Devotion is a synergistic deck by definition, every card is janky, but it makes other better.
Even in your list disciple would be more than just 1/3 + coercion.
It's 1/3 + coercion + drain 2 + 2 mana from Nykthos + lose 1, draw 1 on death + recursion from whip.
For example, merchant, specter and shred freak are also pretty bad by themselves, but you play them because synergy.
4x Desecration Demon
3x Lifebain Zombie
4x Grey Merchant of Asphodel
2x Sire of Insanity
Sorcery (10)
3x Dreadbore
3x Thoughtseize
2x Mizzium Mortars
2x Rakdos's Return
Instant (7)
3x Pharika's Cure
2x Doom Blade
2x Ultimate Price
1x Rakdos Keyrune
2x Underworld Connections
2x Whip of Erebos
Land (24)
12x Swamp
2x Mountain
4x Rakdos Guildgate
4x Blood Crypt
2x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2x Rakdos Charm
4x Slaughter Games
1x Rackdos's Return
1x Pithing Needle
1x Thoughtseize
2x Duress
2x Anger of the Gods
2x Devour Flesh
I want to add in 2 Hero's Downfall to the mainboard but I have no idea what to cut. Sire of Insanity is a must answer threat on the board that I'm testing. Pharika's Cure's are absolutely needed mainboard due to 3x Thoughtseize and 3x Underworld Connections. Hero's Downfall is mainly for dealing with Obzedat. I'd like to get more people's opinions on Erebos, God of the Dead as well. I cut him due to simply having better threat options and more utility cards that get the job done better.
Alms Beast is a staple over in the BW Midrage thread. It acts as a hard to remove blocked vs Aggro, and a quick beater vs other midrange and control.It has a large body, and dodges doom blade and Ultimate Price, along with every burn spell being unable to take it down by itself. you don't really even need to pair it with Erebos for it to be a threat, though giving it Lifelink via the whip is quite nice.
that being said, why not run DD and Alms side by side? they're both undercosted 6/6 beatsticks that can contribute to your devotion plan.
― Oscar Levant
-Decks Testing-
RockstarsBG
Deck | Thread
My original plan was to play the deck as B/W Midrange before Theros got revealed, but then quickly saw just how strong Black was in Theros, and how little White had improved for the deck, and decided to slowly make a transition into a B/w Devotion deck. I had Alms Beast already, and had never planned on getting Desecration Demon until recently.
I just have to order my Demons. I might try a split and see how it plays, but I generally find that in situations like that, it is always one card out-playing the other. I have had terrific results with Alms Beast, and am looking forward to seeing how Desecration Demon does in its stead.
Currently Running:
Nothing, I have just gotten back after a long hiatus, and am just now starting to rebuild my collection.
Primarly the W was just for the Ghost Council, BBoV, Alms Beast, and Sin Collector (at least in mine), so honestly, it shouldn't be terribly difficult to incorporate enough W for some semblance of BW MidRange and still keep your devotion theme.
It would also open up Merciless Eviction if there's absolutely something you can't handle.
would the interaction bewteen Grey Merchant and the 2nd ability of Vizkopa Guildmage be too cutesy for this deck?
And would Debt to the Deathless be a worth a slot with Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx available?
― Oscar Levant
-Decks Testing-
RockstarsBG
Deck | Thread
Not so much cutesy as expensive. That would be a T8 play if you lack Nythkos or some form of ramp.
I also already have my Evictions in my deck, but am debating on whether or not to put them in the SB or not.
Currently Running:
Nothing, I have just gotten back after a long hiatus, and am just now starting to rebuild my collection.
Yes, but only against decks that are slow enough for you to cast it at X=4 or X=5. It's a good card but in this deck it'd be like Gray Merchant #5.
EDIT: I mean Debt to the Deathless.
MTGO Nick: neonordnance
LGS: Dream Wizards in Rockville, MD
Merciless Eviction is a good card that a white splash should definitely consider, but I'd say it's a meta call.
Debt to the Deathless is, from what I can tell, a slower Gray Merchant without a body. I wouldn't run it.
Also, the OP is in serious need of an update. I apologize, I'm smack dab in the middle of midterms, and I seriously overestimated how much time I had for Magic, but after my Circuits exam later today and I get home I'll start working on an update and add cards that have been discussed, since I'll be done for the week. I promise.
I was assuming Nythkos, but even then it might be a tad too much to ask...
As for the Evictions, I would put them in the side, and just bring them in when needed.
yeah, you're probably right, the BBWW is just a bit too prohibitive...definitely no Death Grasp
― Oscar Levant
-Decks Testing-
RockstarsBG
Deck | Thread
You're talking about Disciple of Phenax + Grey Merchant of Asphodel + Nyktos, Shrine to Nix + Dark Prophecy + Whip of Erebos here, not Disciple of Phenax alone. Even Liliana's Reaver is 4/3 + deathtouch + discard + token + (quoting) 'drain 2 + 2 mana from Nykthos + lose 1, draw 1 on death + recursion from whip', and for the same mana cost has 2 more effects and a better body, plus is a WAY better topdeck against most decks. But this is NOT the way to choose which card to play.
Anyway, no one answered my fair points about Disciple of Phenax. Please discuss with something different from 'this card is awesome if you have other 5 cards and your opponent is watching you playing alone and he is keeping all his cards in his hands for 20+ turns'. Not to be rude or anything, but Primers are made to discuss about cards to improve the deck we're all playing, maybe I'm just mistaken and Disciple is a must-play. I'm trying to show you why you shouldn't play the card, and you should try to do the opposite with me
Note: I was thinking about playing 2 Disciple of Phenax instead of 2 Corrupt today, but I tested my usual list. I never had them in my starting hand, but I won 2 games (on 4 played) with the damage from a topdecked Corrupt, while my opponent had enough power on the board to swing for the win next turn (BBoVs in the case, so no blocks). That was really lucky and it's not useful for statistics, but I guess Disciples would have been really bad in those situations...
Even Liliana of the dark realms is better at 4 mana and synergizes with corrupt which is really powerful in a monoblack deck.
Nice, this is a good point I was missing. It's even more relevant if you're playing with a splash. Yes, targeted discard is not bad on turn 4, but if you can have a planeswalker with 'ramp'+removal/finisher at the same cost, that provides the same devotion and synergizes with other cards...
Her +1 ensures that you hit lands drops, her -3 is either repeatable removal or can pump a guy to win a game, and her ultimate is rediculous if you have alot of 4 drops in hand.
Whip+demon+erebos+whip back another demon+ gray merchant is something I was able to do once off of her ultimate, that's 11 damage off of the merchant trigger (counting liliana), and you can get 5 cards off of that lifegain with erebos.
She's very good, super underrated.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
10 Swamp
4 Mutavault
4 Watery Grave
4 Doom Blade
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Thoughtseize
3 Read the Bones
2 Whip of Erebos
4 Desecration Demon
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
4 Lifebane Zombie
4 Nightveil Specter
2 Erebos, God of the Dead
1 Thassa, God of the Sea
1 Gainsay
2 Underworld Connections
2 Notion Thief
3 Returned Phalanx
3 Duress
You left out the part which she falls into, which 50% of the reason farseek was considered a remarkable card. Deck thinning, the longer she stays on board, the more likely you are to draw consistant threats/gas whichever term you so choose to use.
You obviously are highly informed. 2 reasons farseek was played was color fixing and deck thinning. Any avid Jund player from last season could tell you that answer.
Edit: Just to touch base, ignoring a pro side of a card just because you said so is bad logic in general.
Farseek was played because fetching shock lands was awesome especially on turn 2. Deck thinning from removing lands is very marginal unless your removing several or drawing a lot of cards. A lo of statistics have been done for this in legacy regarding fetch lands, land counts and "real" cards drawn.
It is a very minor upside unless Liliana sticks on board for 4-5 turns but it is a upside.
You can do your own simple math to discover that these farseek decks that only ran 4 "thinners" didn't run these cards to thin their decks. In fact the amount the deck got thinned of lands is so minuscule I would argue that it has absolutely no impact at all on selecting which card to run.
If deck thinning really was a strategy, cards like evolving wilds would see play just to fix the numbers. But since mathematics tells us that these probability differences are so minimal there is no upside to run these type of cards for these effects.
Lilianna is a fine, albeit very slow, card for a deck like this. I personally think she only has a place in the mono-black lists that run corrupt because the multi-colored decks do not need an excessive amount of lands for a card like corrupt.
Even if thinning your deck leads to only a 1% increased win expectancy (and I'd argue that it is at least that much), it is something worth noting. That does not mean it is something that is *necessary*, simply that it is a nice bonus if you'd be playing the card regardless of that upside.
That being said, I simply don't think Liliana is good enough for play. Thinning and acceleration are good things...except when you have nothing to accelerate in to. Her +1 and her ultimate are both very mediocre. In addition, her - ability simply isn't enough. If she started with 4 loyalty, maybe. But she doesn't. If the deck were more control oriented, and additional lands mattered (think Corrupt) then she'd be in the discussion.
The Mono-Black variant is as follows:
24 Swamps
Creatures
4 Pack Rat
4 Thrill-Kill Assassin
4 Nightveil Specter
4 Desecration Demon
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1 Abhorrent Overlord
2 Pharika's Cure
2 Doom Blade
3 Hero's Downfall
3 Read the Bones
3 Underworld Connections
2 Whip of Erebos
1 Read the Bones
1 Erebos, God of Death
2 Pithing Needle
2 Duress
2 Devour Flesh
2 Rescue from the Underworld
5 ???(in testing)
As a whole, the deck functioned far smoother than it had prior. This variant went 3-1 vs. Esper Control, 3-0 vs. B/R Midrange, 3-2 vs. RDW, and 3-1 vs. Gruul Midrange. The players I played against wanted to get practice in for the State Opens this weekend, and were more than happy to help me get reliable information for the deck.
Over all, I am going to go over the cards in my deck, and point out how strong they were against the above decks. This will be a long post, so sorry about the length.
Creatures
Pack Rat - Surprisingly powerful, despite the card disadvantage you seem to put up with. There are some great combos utilizing him, and ultimately he becomes a great type of utility.
Strongest against - Esper Control. Get him out early, and start popping tokens when you don't need a card. Since Esper is basically dead until later on, it is easy to overwhelm them. Be careful, though, because Detention Sphere will ruin your fun.
Weakest against - RDW. They push out creatures far faster than you could hope to put up with. Use them to trade with their early creatures, and hope for the best.
Verdict: Play them according to your meta, but I highly recommend giving him a chance.
Thrill-Kill Assassin - Rather unimpressive against Control, but a terror to creature-based decks.
Strongest against - RDW. With this match up, you need to understand what your opponent plans to do, and then either Unleash or not accordingly. It puts your opponent in a real awkward spot when a 1/2 with Deathtouch hits the field and they lack a burn spell to deal with it.
Weakest against - Control. Yes, you get him early, and can Unleash freely, but in the end, he is just a lackluster beater. The entire time I wished he was Thoughtseize.
Verdict: Use in a sideboard isn't out of the question, but honestly, I'd rather have Thoughtseize in main.
Nightveil Specter - 2/3 Flying and use of an opponent's deck for 3 is nothing to laugh about. If it is not answered, your opponent feels the pressure.
Strongest against - Control. Simple fact of the matter is, Control-based decks need their cards more than we need ours. NVS is a huge threat thanks to us having access to our opponent's deck, and since Control is slow to get rolling, it is especially brutal.
Weak Against - RDW. I will admit right now that NVS took more bolts to the face than Frankenstein during a thunderstorm, but this is not exactly a bad thing. I like to view it as one less burn-spell that could hurt us in the end.
Verdict: Play him if you play Mono-Black or B/u Devotion. He isn't a clock for the end of the game, but a clock until we rid our opponents' of a vital card. Plus, he draws removal from our finishers.
Desecration Demon - No explanation is needed here. Really.
Strongest Against - Control. Anytime you have a 6/6 Flying for 4, Control ends up getting hurt a lot, because they want to start their game around that time.
Weak Against - RDW/Gruul/Creature based Decks. If a deck drops a ton of creatures, Des is going to have some trouble, but at the same time, it is inevitable that he will connect. It just might take a while.
Verdict: I have played Des. I have played Alms. Truth is, Des is the superior choice. Double Black in the mana makes him better cost-wise, and Flying makes a world of difference in a meta where the biggest beaters are stuck on the ground. If you can afford him, play him.
Gray Merchant of Asphodel - I am normally not a big fan of 2/4 for 5, but this guy is worth a spot.
Strongest Against - Control, for the most part. If you can play a bunch of permanents, you have a better chance to win.
Weakest Against - Aggro, or decks with a lot of removal. This is simply because of Devotion.
Verdict: If you play Devotion Black, and you don't run him, please join the rest of the bad players.
Abhorrent Overlord - This card was really just filling in an empty spot, but I was surprised by his performance.
Strongest against - Control, again. If you hardcast him, you should win easily. A favorite trick of mine, however, is to discard him with Pack Rat, and then bring back with the Whip. Makes for one powerful move, netting at least 4 1/1 Flyers.
Weakest Against - Aggressive decks. You will have little chance to hardcast him, and if you do, they are doing something wrong.
Verdict: As a 1-of silver bullet, he works pretty well. I am not sure if I'd take him or Erebos, since I have had little chance to play with them both, but he seems to have a bit more power than Lord Death.
Sorceries, Instants, and Enchantments
Pharika's Cure - Surprisingly efficient. I was HIGHLY skeptical, but tested it out anyways. I am glad I didn't let my skepticism get in the way of testing it.
Strongest Against - Aggro. Flat out, if you can kill something with it, do it. Aggro needs their creatures, and each one lost hurts them. If they have mana-dorks, kill them first with it, because that will hurt far more than taking out a single beater.
Weakest Against - Control. Honestly, the first game against Esper Control, I used this to try and get an unexpected Aetherling kill, and it worked. Once. He knew I was out of of Doom Blades and Downfalls thanks to his threats, but didn't expect me to have the Cure in my hand, and tapped out to swing with an 8/1 Unblockable. He never made that mistake again.
Verdict: This is VERY meta-dependant. If your meta is full of Aggro decks, run it main. If it is full of Control, play it in the side and use something more permanent.
Doom Blade - Obviously a staple for removal.
Strong Against - Any deck that has non-black, non-hexproof, non-black-protected creatures. No need for further details.
Weak Against - Decks that use Black Creatures, hexproof creatures, or Protection from Black Creatures.
Verdict: It is used in other decks, use it here.
Hero's Downfall - Now here is a card I am happy to play.
Strong Against - Almost everything.
Weak Against - Decks that do not use creatures or planeswalkers, or creatures with hexproof or protection.
Verdict: Run at least 3 of them. They hit so much that it is unreal. And all for 3 mana.
Whip of Erebos - I was excited for this card since it was spoiled. Many people focused on the Hammer, some on the Bow, but not me. I saw Lifelink, I saw Reanimate, and I saw the neat little package that gave us both.
Strongest Against - Anything without Scavenging Ooze or Graveyard hate. We want creatures, we want life, we use this to get both.
Weak Against - Graveyard Hate, Erebos. To put it simply, we like gaining life, and we like recursion. Taking those away from us makes us sad.
Verdict: If you play creatures, play them. Lifelink alone can be a game changer, but the recursion makes for some sick interactions and set-ups with Pack Rat.
In the end, I am much happier with the Mono-Black variant than B/w. Thanks to the Whip, I often wonder if I could place in a few [card]Ashen Rider[card]s just to use the recursion ability to exile things. I might eventually make a deck that utilizes the Whip to its fullest Reanimation capabilities, but for now, Mono-Black Devotion seems to be feasible as a tournament-level deck.
Currently Running:
Nothing, I have just gotten back after a long hiatus, and am just now starting to rebuild my collection.
The statistics of deck thinning
Just to clarify that at the end of said article, the author said he cannot "argue with the people who tell us in articles that they’ve observed the thinning effect of fetch lands except to point out that thinning is an extremely difficult thing to see during a game." Basically, he can't say that they are wrong because it is difficult to discern the exact amount of thinning the cards do.
Also, he was mostly referring to Legacy, which has far more burn spells than Standard, and said that "only a suicidally reckless aggro deck can afford 4 life for a card, and those decks can’t afford to wait 20+ turns for it." This is a vastly different area than Type 2.
Using the cards strictly for deck thinning is a bad idea, yes, but the decks that use them do not use them just to thin their deck out, but to ensure that they get the right land as well. Plus they have 2 less cards in the deck: the one they cast and the one they got. That is a total of 8 cards in the end if they run 4 copies of the tutor.
I used to run Evolving Wilds and Terramorphic Expanse to both thin my deck and ensure I got the right type of land I needed. But that was ages ago, it seems.
Currently Running:
Nothing, I have just gotten back after a long hiatus, and am just now starting to rebuild my collection.