The mirror often turns on the accumulation of minor advantages.
For example-I continue to hit land drop #7 and #8 while my opponent is stuck at 6.
I play Pilfered Plans and go up a card on my opponent (and mill a random counter-spell VALUE).
My opponent lands his Jace, and can protect it with counter magic.
My opponent Thoughtseizes a win con.
All this seems understandable right? But many players seem to make hasty choices while playing the mirror. For example I've had my Pilfered Plans countered much more than my Divination every got countered, why? Because it presents a threat that they weren't thinking about, countering Divination is also a pretty big mistake too, unless you think your opponent missed a land drop, then by all means (if post board).
You can also make judgement calls.
For example in one game I had a hand with two lands, and a Negate, my opponent has 5 cards and had shown 2 Thoughtseize in game one, the board is clean.
I draw Hallowed Fountain and shock myself. I have 8 land in play and pass the turn (representing revelation in hand).
My opponent plays Thoughtseize on his turn, I counter it, he counters my counter, I then show him the two lands.
Why did I make these plays? Think for a bit...
I recommend never Dissolving anything but Aetherlings in Game one (if possible) because if it gets through you will lose and your opponent will wait for a tap out or counter magic backup before casting him.
Take out your Azorius Charms, your sideboard should have enough relevant resources that make A.C. subpar postboard.
Take out a Supreme Verdict for a Merciless Eviction post-board. It keeps a stronger more versatile wraith effect, yes it can be countered but we aren't getting aggro'd by creatures anyway.
Don't be afraid to Revelation for 2, it's perfectly normal. Waiting and doing nothing often puts you behind.
I really like Ashiok in the mirror for a couple reasons.
1. At worst it trades for one of their cards, either a counter spell or a removal spell. This gives you a better chance of resolving and sticking your Jace or Elspeth.
2. A resolved Ashiok exiles 3 cards from their deck with a very few win conditions while they are only drawing an average of two cards a turn. Simply put we are more likely to exile their win condition then they are to draw them.
3. Ashiok's ultimate while isn't a game ender isn't that hard to attain and it even let's Ashiok stick around for more milling.
In conclusion a resolved Ashiok on turn 3 turns your opponents game into a find an answer to Ashiok and they have to do so through counter magic and hand disruption. Don't get me wrong there are answers to Ashiok but I want my opponent to be spending their answers on Ashiok.
I really like Ashiok in the mirror for a couple reasons.
1. At worst it trades for one of their cards, either a counter spell or a removal spell. This gives you a better chance of resolving and sticking your Jace or Elspeth.
2. A resolved Ashiok exiles 3 cards from their deck with a very few win conditions while they are only drawing an average of two cards a turn. Simply put we are more likely to exile their win condition then they are to draw them.
3. Ashiok's ultimate while isn't a game ender isn't that hard to attain and it even let's Ashiok stick around for more milling.
In conclusion a resolved Ashiok on turn 3 turns your opponents game into a find an answer to Ashiok and they have to do so through counter magic and hand disruption. Don't get me wrong there are answers to Ashiok but I want my opponent to be spending their answers on Ashiok.
Ashiok has put in WORK thus far in my testing. Even if you use him on turn 3 vs. aggro to soak up damage I don't think it's a bad play. Against the mirror it's fantastic, they most likely will not counter him and in order to actually deal with him they have to use their heavy removal (D.S, Hero's D.F) leaving you better chances to keep a Jace, Elspeth or Aetherling on the field.
Say you actually do get to use Ashioks ultimate vs. mirror, you just reversed Sphinx's rev in your opponents face, if you have a few cards left in hand you should be winning.
Ashiok has put in WORK thus far in my testing. Even if you use him on turn 3 vs. aggro to soak up damage I don't think it's a bad play. Against the mirror it's fantastic, they most likely will not counter him and in order to actually deal with him they have to use their heavy removal (D.S, Hero's D.F) leaving you better chances to keep a Jace, Elspeth or Aetherling on the field.
Say you actually do get to use Ashioks ultimate vs. mirror, you just reversed Sphinx's rev in your opponents face, if you have a few cards left in hand you should be winning.
I agree. At GP Hong Kong I didn't make Day Two but I played Standard in the Super Sunday tourney and Ashiok was money for me and everybody tried their hardest to get rid of it. A lot scarier than Jace. I ultimated in the very first game and got all the opponent's win cons. Insta-scoop!
I agree. At GP Hong Kong I didn't make Day Two but I played Standard in the Super Sunday tourney and Ashiok was money for me and everybody tried their hardest to get rid of it. A lot scarier than Jace. I ultimated in the very first game and got all the opponent's win cons. Insta-scoop!
Nice!! I would personally rather remove 1 out of 2 Elspeth's for another removal card before I consider dropping Ashiok. That may be a poor plan with all the aggro however.
Also! I've really been thinking about merciless eviction. I might like it more than ratchet bomb in the side, not sure yet. I've never actually played with it but I can picture late game blow outs.
Nice!! I would personally rather remove 1 out of 2 Elspeth's for another removal card before I consider dropping Ashiok. That may be a poor plan with all the aggro however.
Also! I've really been thinking about merciless eviction. I might like it more than ratchet bomb in the side, not sure yet. I've never actually played with it but I can picture late game blow outs.
My sideboard currently has 2 Ratchet Bombs and a Merciless Eviction and I'm really happy with those card at the moment.
We ended up just taking a page from UW and removing our 4th Azorius Charm for a single Elixir of Immortality. Esper decks have no way to beat it other than countering it, which is often a challenging task and can leave them open for hay makers. Reid Duke was pressing Elixir and Revelations early on with RTR and practically going infinite with your spells. It was at the cost of a single Azorius Charm, which we were siding out in most matches anyways and it has proved to be a small and effective way to take the match down. It has also been a nice cushion from time to time when you just want the extra life padding and your Revs back against decks like Mono Black or even Mono Red.
Ashiok has put in WORK thus far in my testing. Even if you use him on turn 3 vs. aggro to soak up damage I don't think it's a bad play. Against the mirror it's fantastic, they most likely will not counter him and in order to actually deal with him they have to use their heavy removal (D.S, Hero's D.F) leaving you better chances to keep a Jace, Elspeth or Aetherling on the field.
Say you actually do get to use Ashioks ultimate vs. mirror, you just reversed Sphinx's rev in your opponents face, if you have a few cards left in hand you should be winning.
Agreed. I play him and am the only one who does at my shop(they all think he sucks) and I win almost every control mirror match. Like usually blow them out. He's just too disruptive. They HAVE to answer him quickly and that frees me up for a jace.
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Standard: Gave it up
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
Matches don't seem to be decided by milling if Memory Adept isn't at play, they're decided by Aetherling, so this puzzles me.
The vast majority of Esper lists run a single Aetherling, and some lists run 2x Thoughtseize.
Game1, if you do not resolve an Aetherling (either it gets Thoughtseized or you lose the counter war), then you are looking to out deck your opponent as your best chance of winning. Elspeth/ Blood Baron are very unlikely to get the job done as your opponent is going to be running ~ 6 answers to Elspeth (DSphere and Heros Downfall) and 8-10 answers to Blood Baron (Elspeth -3, Verdicts and Devour Flesh). They will likely have these answers due to the ability to chain revelations.
Milling is more relevant that it appears
The vast majority of Esper lists run a single Aetherling, and some lists run 2x Thoughtseize.
Game1, if you do not resolve an Aetherling (either it gets Thoughtseized or you lose the counter war), then you are looking to out deck your opponent as your best chance of winning. Elspeth/ Blood Baron are very unlikely to get the job done as your opponent is going to be running ~ 6 answers to Elspeth (DSphere and Heros Downfall) and 8-10 answers to Blood Baron (Elspeth -3, Verdicts and Devour Flesh). They will likely have these answers due to the ability to chain revelations.
Milling is more relevant that it appears
That's what you have Jace for you'll be alright, milling is not that relevant. Not decking yourself is relevant but this is a lot different than milling from a gameplay standpoint.
That's what you have Jace for you'll be alright, milling is not that relevant. Not decking yourself is relevant but this is a lot different than milling from a gameplay standpoint.
I think you got too hung up on the word milling, and missed the point of my post which was,
If Aetherling does not resolve, cards in library becomes highly relevant as no other win condition can reasonably be expected to close out the game.
I think you got too hung up on the word milling, and missed the point of my post which was,
If Aetherling does not resolve, cards in library becomes highly relevant as no other win condition can reasonably be expected to close out the game.
Correct! Milling the opponent out is very much a thing.
Has anyone else explored Reap Intellect? I've been using this and it has been absolutely amazing in the mirror match and against R/W/U control. If they're holding a win condition or a Revelation, they're in deep trouble if it resolves.
Has anyone else explored Reap Intellect? I've been using this and it has been absolutely amazing in the mirror match and against R/W/U control. If they're holding a win condition or a Revelation, they're in deep trouble if it resolves.
I tried to build a shell around that card with Plasma Capture but it wasn't very good. Certainly this spell would be good against control if it didn't require you to essentially tap out at sorcery speed.
I tried to build a shell around that card with Plasma Capture but it wasn't very good. Certainly this spell would be good against control if it didn't require you to essentially tap out at sorcery speed.
I never tap out for it. I save it for late game and the opponent scoops half the time that it resolves. Getting to look at your opponents entire deck is also incredibly valuable to know exactly what you're up against.
I would run mind grinds side board just for mirror matches. we do run several lands, but we prefer to play a land every turn, so by turn 7 i play a souped up mind grind for 7 or 4, to keep enough open for a counter. because we are running elixer just keep playing mind grind for more and more till he mills his aetherling or mill his elixers. also if you side out your target creature destroy for duress, essence scatter, or gainsay. essence scatter and gainsay will counter aetherling for less and duress will take away his or her revelations. try you best to keep card advantage and take away his or her opportunities.
I would run mind grinds side board just for mirror matches. we do run several lands, but we prefer to play a land every turn, so by turn 7 i play a souped up mind grind for 7 or 4, to keep enough open for a counter. because we are running elixer just keep playing mind grind for more and more till he mills his aetherling or mill his elixers. also if you side out your target creature destroy for duress, essence scatter, or gainsay. essence scatter and gainsay will counter aetherling for less and duress will take away his or her revelations. try you best to keep card advantage and take away his or her opportunities.
Mind Grind for 7 on T7? That's not possible in this deck. Also a mind grind for 5 is largely irrelevant.
I am only reporting what I have found. You don't have to agree. And what do you propose in its stead? You have problems but no alternate suggestions. If you add a second elspeth or aetherling it's still a race with no better odds than the first match because your opponent is siding in the same thing. Through my personal experience going mill route against mirror has won me the match every single time
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Theory, tactics and strategy, etc.
I think there is A LOT more to talk about than that and will be delving into it when I have a few free moments.
For example-I continue to hit land drop #7 and #8 while my opponent is stuck at 6.
I play Pilfered Plans and go up a card on my opponent (and mill a random counter-spell VALUE).
My opponent lands his Jace, and can protect it with counter magic.
My opponent Thoughtseizes a win con.
All this seems understandable right? But many players seem to make hasty choices while playing the mirror. For example I've had my Pilfered Plans countered much more than my Divination every got countered, why? Because it presents a threat that they weren't thinking about, countering Divination is also a pretty big mistake too, unless you think your opponent missed a land drop, then by all means (if post board).
You can also make judgement calls.
For example in one game I had a hand with two lands, and a Negate, my opponent has 5 cards and had shown 2 Thoughtseize in game one, the board is clean.
I draw Hallowed Fountain and shock myself. I have 8 land in play and pass the turn (representing revelation in hand).
My opponent plays Thoughtseize on his turn, I counter it, he counters my counter, I then show him the two lands.
Why did I make these plays? Think for a bit...
I recommend never Dissolving anything but Aetherlings in Game one (if possible) because if it gets through you will lose and your opponent will wait for a tap out or counter magic backup before casting him.
Take out your Azorius Charms, your sideboard should have enough relevant resources that make A.C. subpar postboard.
Take out a Supreme Verdict for a Merciless Eviction post-board. It keeps a stronger more versatile wraith effect, yes it can be countered but we aren't getting aggro'd by creatures anyway.
Don't be afraid to Revelation for 2, it's perfectly normal. Waiting and doing nothing often puts you behind.
1. At worst it trades for one of their cards, either a counter spell or a removal spell. This gives you a better chance of resolving and sticking your Jace or Elspeth.
2. A resolved Ashiok exiles 3 cards from their deck with a very few win conditions while they are only drawing an average of two cards a turn. Simply put we are more likely to exile their win condition then they are to draw them.
3. Ashiok's ultimate while isn't a game ender isn't that hard to attain and it even let's Ashiok stick around for more milling.
In conclusion a resolved Ashiok on turn 3 turns your opponents game into a find an answer to Ashiok and they have to do so through counter magic and hand disruption. Don't get me wrong there are answers to Ashiok but I want my opponent to be spending their answers on Ashiok.
Ashiok has put in WORK thus far in my testing. Even if you use him on turn 3 vs. aggro to soak up damage I don't think it's a bad play. Against the mirror it's fantastic, they most likely will not counter him and in order to actually deal with him they have to use their heavy removal (D.S, Hero's D.F) leaving you better chances to keep a Jace, Elspeth or Aetherling on the field.
Say you actually do get to use Ashioks ultimate vs. mirror, you just reversed Sphinx's rev in your opponents face, if you have a few cards left in hand you should be winning.
http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/937651
I agree. At GP Hong Kong I didn't make Day Two but I played Standard in the Super Sunday tourney and Ashiok was money for me and everybody tried their hardest to get rid of it. A lot scarier than Jace. I ultimated in the very first game and got all the opponent's win cons. Insta-scoop!
Nice!! I would personally rather remove 1 out of 2 Elspeth's for another removal card before I consider dropping Ashiok. That may be a poor plan with all the aggro however.
Also! I've really been thinking about merciless eviction. I might like it more than ratchet bomb in the side, not sure yet. I've never actually played with it but I can picture late game blow outs.
http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/937651
My sideboard currently has 2 Ratchet Bombs and a Merciless Eviction and I'm really happy with those card at the moment.
Agreed. I play him and am the only one who does at my shop(they all think he sucks) and I win almost every control mirror match. Like usually blow them out. He's just too disruptive. They HAVE to answer him quickly and that frees me up for a jace.
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
The vast majority of Esper lists run a single Aetherling, and some lists run 2x Thoughtseize.
Game1, if you do not resolve an Aetherling (either it gets Thoughtseized or you lose the counter war), then you are looking to out deck your opponent as your best chance of winning. Elspeth/ Blood Baron are very unlikely to get the job done as your opponent is going to be running ~ 6 answers to Elspeth (DSphere and Heros Downfall) and 8-10 answers to Blood Baron (Elspeth -3, Verdicts and Devour Flesh). They will likely have these answers due to the ability to chain revelations.
Milling is more relevant that it appears
That's what you have Jace for you'll be alright, milling is not that relevant. Not decking yourself is relevant but this is a lot different than milling from a gameplay standpoint.
I think you got too hung up on the word milling, and missed the point of my post which was,
If Aetherling does not resolve, cards in library becomes highly relevant as no other win condition can reasonably be expected to close out the game.
Correct! Milling the opponent out is very much a thing.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/598381-kiki-chord-kiki-company
Bring to Niv
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/814060-bring-to-niv-the-golden-deck
Legacy - Lands
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/established-legacy/control/535484-primer-lands
I tried to build a shell around that card with Plasma Capture but it wasn't very good. Certainly this spell would be good against control if it didn't require you to essentially tap out at sorcery speed.
I never tap out for it. I save it for late game and the opponent scoops half the time that it resolves. Getting to look at your opponents entire deck is also incredibly valuable to know exactly what you're up against.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/598381-kiki-chord-kiki-company
Bring to Niv
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/814060-bring-to-niv-the-golden-deck
Legacy - Lands
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/established-legacy/control/535484-primer-lands
Mind Grind for 7 on T7? That's not possible in this deck. Also a mind grind for 5 is largely irrelevant.