Ok all, as I'm going to gameday tomorrow at my LGS I figured I'd post my take on Naya Monsters to get some constructive feedback.
That's a very conservative splash, which I like because it keeps you competitive. My main critical thought is that you don't seem to be profiting enough from the splash to justify it. Vanilla R/G will generally perform better because of its superior manabase, so you must justify bringing in the third color. In Jund, the primary reason to splash for black is removal and better anti-control tools in the sideboard. In Naya, I don't think Boros Charm is enough (Gruul is aggressive enough and does fine just playing around Verdict). I think you're missing out by not trying out other creatures. I understand you don't want to be Big/Brave Naya, but you really don't have to go that deep. There are two creatures I think could be really good:
Fleecemane Lion: Recently won the Pro Tour in Block Constructed, Lion is a Kalonian Tusker with big metagame upside. The 3/3 body for (2) is quietly the best aggressive purchase you can make in Standard. And like Patrick Chapin's Junk midrange deck that won the PT, Monsters actually benefits from an early aggressive creature. Lion will hold down the fort against aggro and punish opponents when they stumble. And it has good late game value that uses your mana, which is gas.
Aurelia, the Warleader: Is there a better finisher in Naya? I can't think of one. She's mana intensive, but I'm very sure that she's a good fit in maindeck Monsters as a 1-of or 2-of since the early accelerants make her a realistic turn 4/5 play. I'm not going to try to talk you out of Elspeth, but personally I think Aurelia fits the aggressive gameplan better.
I would consider running like 3x Fleecemane Lion, and to make room you could move the 2x Scavenging Ooze to the sideboard and shave 1x Mizzium Mortars. I would also cut Chandra for 1 maindeck Aurelia, see how she goes.
Other than that, I agree with Zealot that Banishing Light is a notable exclusion from your sideboard.
Zealot:
Thanks for the reply! I'll try to answer your questions in order. There are the full 4 Boros Charms simply because that was my starting point, 2 of them can easily be Selesnya Charms (which I had honestly debated some amount of anyway). The only other advantage to Plummet is that it hits (nearly) any creature with flying, whether it has the ability static or is granted it somehow (Ajani's -3 for example) and problem creatures such as Nightveil Specter. It's a tough call really. Plus, as you said, the other 2 modes of Selesnya Charm are very useful as well.
Unravel vs Deicide: I already had the Unravel's in my sb from being a straight G/R Monster list, just hadn't changed them out. But as I have the white now Deicide is probably the more logical choice.
The lack of Banishing Light is really just a matter of keeping my threat density at a certain minimum. There are tons of great cards that I could add in, but (imo) I would either end up with Big Naya or have to dilute my primary strategy.
Fleecemain Lion could be worth trying out. It fits the same slot on the curve as Scooze, albeit the lack of added utility that the Ooze provides. It's a tough call really. Especially after watching the SCGOpen coverage this weekend, where Ooze seems to overperform most of the time it gets played. But I'm not adverse to testing the Lion.
The Boros Charms are mainly for use against removal and Supreme Verdict. G/R Monsters, while threat dense, can get hit hard by a well-timed Supreme Verdict. Boros Charm, like Chandra, is a bit of a meta call for my LGS. There is typically a good amount of removal that gets played and I know who the typical control players are. I'm not against shaving some amount of them 2 may be the sweet spot for that particular card.
Aurelia is an interesting idea. The extra combat step could certainly end games. I previously ran 2 Sylvan Primordial in my list to help against flyers and to get rid of non-creature permanents, so I'm not against trying different tech. I even try running a 1 of Archetype of Endurance from time to time.
My only qualm with Banishing light is that, while it's a good card, it may be a bit to reactive for what this list wants to accomplish. That, and it's a matter of what would I cut (and where) for them without diluting the core strategy of the deck? I could certainly be wrong though.
Voice is one of the best reasons to splash white, with Banishing Light right after it. Voice is a significant way to shore up a weakness in all monsters builds. The opponent gets the all removal hand. Fleecemane is good but you have assume they can deal with it immediately. Standard is significantly different than block in the redundancy of removal, better mana fixing, and to some degree in these colour combinations the lack of Domri or opposing Rev's or Connections. Courser or Eidolon is like the best CA engine. I think Lions fine, and it's a bit like say Dreg Mangler. However, in monsters you don't play 2 drops to be 2 drops. You want to be playing ramp. You play 2's for their utility and if you miss on curve. Fleecemaine Lion does do a great Scavenging Ooze impersonation T2. Dies to removal and then provides no further value. Ooze is great later in the game against some decks. Fleecemaine can be too, but it doesn't shore up an issue I see as primary. Ooze lets you outsize in attrtition battles and survive the reach of Devotion decks. Voice gives pure value against an x2 aggro format and keeps you ahead of the gambit against decks that have to keep your board clear by one for one you. In fact sometimes they have no choice but to give you tokens from Voice. I side in Ooze a good number of times but rarely side out voice. I just think Voice is better in more places. Ooze is only really better against Graveyard Strategies. It's arguably equally good against red, but I'd rather have the earlier stop gap. It's pretty close against black but I'd rather have voice timing wise. Voice is more strict mana wise though. Need 13 white (I suppose Lion is the same). This does mean we probably need Confluence more than Jund.
I've been playing Jund for a long while and I came to the conclusion Xenagos is actually the real secret weapon of the deck, and Voice plays to that plan so well. This is what makes Naya better than all the other monsters decks in my opinion. Mind you it wouldn't be as viable without a point and hit all. Dreadbore is arguably the best reason to play Jund (although I think Golgari Charm is right around the same level). Obviously Abrupt Decay lines up awkwardly for us against Banishing Light. But in this sort of deck you are usually just buying time to get ahead with your removal. If that demon comes back a turn later, so be it. Similarly while Boros Charm is a great tool, it has that same awkwardness as Golgari Charm where sometimes it's not worth the slot in the matchup. I'm not convinced Boros Charm main is good enough. The none threat slots are tough. I admittedly haven't tried it main in post JOU standard but I tried it post Born of the Gods and it wasn't good enough, mind you the whole deck wasn't good enough. I could see it part of a good all in plan though. But then it feels more like Flesh/Blood. More versatile but you notice how no one plays that anymore.
The going big part is part of the problem. With Ajani we have the perfect analog to Vraska which is very important in Jund against slower decks as it lets you play proactive removal since you need to be playing spells every turn and can't afford to be holding removal and not progressing yoyr game. Ajani is better in that you know you will find your next threat. I bruteforced through an Elspeth with Ajani (I mean finding a Ghor Clan helped) but I had never had that situation. I added counters to make my Xenagos Token and Elf 3/3's alongside a Dragon I had in hand. And I kept the tokens in check as I managed to push through and take the Elspeth down. All that being said Stormbreath is the decks finisher period. I was testing Junk Monsters basically right around set release and it was awesome. It is actually more aggressive than this deck the way I made it and it worked probably even better than Naya except... Archangel of Thune wasn't good enough. The deck fell apart at 5. Advent and little Ajani along with the rest of the team did good work. But Archangel was just such a downgrade (in case you were wondering Blood Baron was no good either, that card needs to be backed up by removal or your opponent can still race on pure critical mass, it doesn't have the same effect of being quick or getting games stupidly out of hand). I think we're stuck in this format to find a great top of the curve. Sylvan Primordial just pulls you into more of a grind fest and doesn't close. Aurelia might get in herself, for a surprise 6 but if the board is jammed the board is jammed. She needs more dedication. Garruk is decent but doesn't win it on it's own it takes time. In a 23 land build stopping the curve generally at Ajani makes a lot of sense. The difference between 5-6-7 is actually pretty huge without an active Xenagos. Elspeth might be the best curve topper but doesn't fit the timing of the deck. The timing of the deck is designed to make Domri the biggest pain for your opponent.. Domri is why we don't play Advent. I mean Polukranos has a more important role but Advent is a decent supplementary 4. It is very difficult to keep Domri and go down in creature count. Mind you there is still room for Elspeth. I ultimately decided that we already have the best top end and that the most powerful effect when things get convoluted is Rift, but I don't expect people to necessarily agree with me on that.
The other key reason Naya is better than other variations is that I believe because of Voice and possibly other white critical mass threats like Trostani or Archangel, we don't need to run as much removal. In Jund especially I always felt like I wanted to board to less creatures against Control and Black. In Naya my creature count stays relatively the same if not goes up. Domri gets better where he's supposed to. I was exploring these sort of sideboards with Jund and GR, but they were always more of a compromise. In Naya you have the tools. Instead of bringing in Doom Blades in the green mirror bring in Archangel etc.. Instead of having to play even more removal than the Mortars and the Lights against little aggro or devotion, bring in Trostani. Voice sort of ties it all together so that you can don't need as much removal against D-Demon or try to hard with Wrath protection playing conservatively. Voice generally puts more pressure on their early removal which makes your planes walkers better. All in all it means the deck doesn't need to board so drastically and it stays good at what it does.
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My only qualm with Banishing light is that, while it's a good card, it may be a bit to reactive for what this list wants to accomplish. That, and it's a matter of what would I cut (and where) for them without diluting the core strategy of the deck? I could certainly be wrong though.
Thanks for the input!
It is certainly a reactive card. The idea here is though that some times we need to respond to certain threats as we can. Jund Monsters is very good at this with Golgari Charm and Abrupt Decay among the rest of their disruption.
In fact we can somewhat equate the use of Banishing Light to Thoughtseize in the Jund lists. Thoughtseize is used by Jund to catch problem cards in the opponents hands before they can cast them. Unfortunately for us, white doesn't really have this catch all. For us we need to use multiple cards to answer their threats. Banishing Light in a way is our Plummet/Selesnya charm 3-4, our mortars 3-5, our deicide/unravel 3-4, and one of our better answers to planeswalkers that doesn't require us devoting turns swinging into them.
My version I'm taking to game day. Thoughts? Especially the mana base. Still tweaking that.
Tate, your list is extremely similar to mine. The main thing I can see is the 3 coursers. I feel it is one our core cards and deserves to be a four of. Any reason behind only 3?
Hope everyone does well at game day today, looking forward to seeing some results posts later.
I don't think I have a cut to make room for a 4th courser. And even when I played Jund monsters I only ran 3. It's just not a card I think we need 4 of. It's a great card but I don't want one late game and with the scry, domri, ajani I'll have one if I need one.
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Standard: Gave it up
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
Went 4-1 at game day. Lost in the finals to a mana flood vs red devotion. Didn't drop a game prior to that. Deck is good but I need to tweak some things. More mortars needed I think and seleysena charm is moving to the board. Just didn't do anything for me.
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Standard: Gave it up
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
Banishing Light is much more like Dreadbore. Which is the only card that I think has never been removed from Jund Monsters since the beginning. It's almost always a 2 of. A lot lists don't even play Thoughtseize. Maybe 2 in the board. You need that point all just so that you can build that momentum. You often sandbag it til you find the time to play it. The deck doesn't need much removal, just singular powerful effects which is why Light and Mortars are good. In fact Light might be even better than Dreadbore, since sometimes buying back something under a Chained to the Rocks etc makes a difference. It's a timing thing so as long as they don't immediately decay it etc... Mortars as a big effect is key. I love having those type of effects which is why I play 5 overload spells in my 75. I can easily see playing the 4th mortars since Naya is much better at holding the board than Jund it can win you guys that it wouldn't there. Personally since I don't want too many dead cards against control I don't like more than 3 main (even 2 maybe) but I can see the big effect being worth it.
Either way I'm glad people are having success with these sort of lists. I think with a little work we will have something good, probably better than other Monster variants.
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Voice is one of the best reasons to splash white, with Banishing Light right after it. Voice is a significant way to shore up a weakness in all monsters builds. The opponent gets the all removal hand. Fleecemane is good but you have assume they can deal with it immediately.
I'm with you on the sentiments about Voice, and I was actually going to recommend it, but after some analysis I realized that the gameplan of Monsters isn't to flood the field but instead ramp into something big and unstoppable (on the battlefield). While Voice has a lot more total value by being a 2-for-1 AND a hate bear, Fleecemane Lion has greater lategame value for Monsters by essentially being an overloadable 7-cmc monster. And yeah, Lion will 99% of the time eat kill spells when it's cast early, but hey that's one less kill spell to fade with your bigger and more expensive threats.
I would fault no one for playing Voice over Lion, but fundamentally I think it draws us away from the Monsters strategy of "ramp into something big."
The nonbo between Advent of the Wurm and Domri matters, but I think the boon of it dodging Lifebane Zombie makes up a bit of difference in black devotion matchups, making it sideboardable at the least. Also, it's my perception that players tend to overvalue maximizing the Domri +1; he's a 3-mana planeswalker, so a 33% chance to hit (20 creatures) is the bare minimum to run him in my book. It's an arbitrary percentage but I value his repeatable fight and emblem far more than 1/2 a card per turn. We're not playing the long game, that's for sure.
The thing is in practice the ramp into something big only somewhat works. Nothing big in this format has that much immediate impact. Nothing is that swingy. I mean this is a comparative scale before but I'm coming from the perspective of someone who played for the past few years Mythic, Fauna Shaman/Vengevine, GW Gavony, Naya Pod, Unfriendly Skies,.. These decks had aggressive ramp into big plans that were actually big swings. Sovereigns/Conscription even Baneslayer was big, chaining into 3-4 Vengevines was big, Gavony Township on Hero of Bladehold or Blade Splicer/Resto was big even Garruk or Gideon, or the same plan but going up to Zealous Conscripts or Inferno Titan or Wolfir Silverheart, even Bonfire of the Damned was big. This formats top end is weak and the opponent has the time to find an answer almost in every case. And the big drops don't provide immediate value, you need them to miss and then you can invest monstrous into them. If it was just about ramping into 4-5 drops I think more powerful ones would see play (like Archangel of Thune, and Kalonian Hydra). The thing is Stormbreath with haste and protection from white is just awkward enough you will probably get 4-8 damage in.
Monsters is a funny deck in that the way it plays is very different than what the game plan looks like. The thing is it has to win on threat density like all decks of this nature but the threats aren't actually comparatively that good in the format. It's been one of those contradictions. It makes playing the deck feel a bit awkward, because resolving a big spell and actually having it stick around a turn might not win you the game. It isn't an aggro deck to be sure but kind of like GW Gavony which wasn't a Token deck explicitly, the fact you can continue to develop your board while they kill every good card you play in some matchups is actually it's saving grace.. Yes we can gold fish a T3 Dragon, into a T4 Dragon and win some matches, but in a lot places that actually does nothing. Nothing is unstoppable in this format (save maybe Blood Baron, who is slow as molasses, and is weak to Mortars and big Green creatures). Stormbreath isn't bad, but it's the haste that makes the difference because a lot of these decks don't need much to critical mass you and basically one shot you. I think it's partially this reason why decks don't even seem selective about their removal. They just try to kill everything one by one. Usually this isn't good enough of a strategy, but now it seems to be. They can afford to kill every innane 2 drop because even if they don't have removal for the 2nd dragon, they will draw it next turn. This closeness between threats and one for ones is so close that some amount of Scry is necessary even for us. Annoying since it affects curves but we need to keep hitting threats just to try to keep ahead. It makes Domri, Courser, Ajani etc so much better than they should be (assuming they live). I mean Reaper of the Wilds is not a great card, but a lot better in this format for that reason. In this format every game goes longer than it should pretty much. Playing the longish game is a reality.
So I'd actually say Monsters is a bit of a bait and switch. Your opponent tries to deal with the "threats" and loses to the fact that you've been playing stuff to the board every turn while they've had to be reactive. If you are on the defense it's a different game (the mines bigger than yours game). I think it's essential to have both game plans running smoothly. While Polukranos or Stormbreath might lead the charge so to speak, I think it's the Voice sac'd to demon the turn before to put them in range or the Xenagos Token that kills the Elspeth that wins these games. We have no choice to but be drawn into these incremental value games to some degree. I'm not convinced Lion is better than Scavenging Ooze. Mind you all our 2 drops are below rate so maybe it doesn't matter much. They do all need to have some late to mid game application so Lion fits that mold. I think the monstrous mechanic kind of sucks mind you. It's acceptable but I like the idea of having things that don't need to live to get value. Ooze always will gain you the life and Voice doesn't require investment. But I mean we lean on the other two monsters so that seems alright.
EDIT:
Advent is fine, and there have been times I've played it over other 4 drops. I'm not sure where it's particularly good though. Flash against control EoT I guess. It's another big creatures against aggro but we have a lot of those. Against black it is just smaller than Demon without offering a way to get past. Avoiding Lifebane is good, but I think once you make the choice to go Ghor Clan it's difficult to avoid Lifebane, in that you can't possibly sideout all your green 4's. And when push comes to shove I'd rather have a resolved Polukranos. Advent might be just awkward enough that you get the swing in because timing for when to play removal, so Demon aside (which much easier to ignore with Voice) Advent has some upside. I mean I was actually in a Junk deck playing it with Trostani out of board as another way to just go over the top. But it's a thin line.. I mean Advent also dies to Abrupt Decay and the Domri issue. I mean I'm in the camp that said Domri needs no less than 27 creatures and 28 is the sweet spot. Courser let's us play a little less I guess. But playing Jund where there is a lot of incentive to drop creatures for powerful spells, dropping below 25 creatures made Domri that much worse. I never wanted less than 23 in any postboard configuration that included Domri in numbers. This is one of the issues I have with Jund and why I like Naya more. I think Advent could still fit in those bounds as small number in the board. I just wonder if it's that significant of an upgrade over say like Mistcutter Hydra in a lot of those slots. Mind you my board plan against Mono Black is pretty weak. It involves boarding out Rift, a Polukranos, maybe a Ghor Clan, and bringing in a couple Scavenging Ooze's. I don't think that matchup is bad by any means. BBD was quoted saying he like Jund Monsters in the first open of the season since he didn't want to lose to black. I think Naya is even better there naturally.
Well said, and I agree. There really is no Craterhoof or Township in this format to give the ramp plan that solid foundation. We also lack a lot of early ramp creatures obviously, having only Mystic to do most of the work. I didn't play during those cycles but still feel the shakiness of pretty much relying solely on plan A to get us there.
Lion over Ooze is close in my amateur eyes, it could very well be that the Ooze has greater lategame value due to the lifegain. The main sticking point for me is that the 3/3 body versus 2/2, makes a massive difference in the early turns of combat (walling Pack Rat, putting an early clock on U/W). The funny thing is that although Lion is clearly the weakest card among Ooze/Voice/Lion, the fact that it straddles both the mid-to-late game and early game well are why I think it might be a better maindeck candidate. But yeah, could be wrong there, I may have to switch to Naya and see.
If anyone cares I streamlined my my maindeck to this. Basically I was playing too many different cards to be consistent. The mana was hurting me a bit I felt the need for more green, and Eidolon wasn't really as good as just having another voice. Xenagos has been too good to only play 2.
Standard: Superfriends!
Legacy: Nic Fit / Pod
Pauper: Delvar; Tron; Flicker Stuff
Commander: Riku ("Some weird doubple spell thing happened"); Keranos ("I did a Gatherer search for 'random' and 'flip a coin.'"); Superfriends!
I love the Apparition, that's true technology. This also seems like one of the best shells for the new Ajani, though he's very versatile.
I don't love Voyaging Satyr but can't think of any better options. I particularly dislike Chandra here, Justin explained that she combos off with Courser and does a lot of killing in some matchups. She doesn't seem maindeck worthy to me though, I'd much rather have a Boros Charm.
All in all a slightly more controlling Monsters variant, I do like it.
Seems like a real metagame call to me. The sort of deck that doesn't want to deal with main deck Doom Blade from Esper which is sure to turn up in response.
Ajani is awesome. He's like a big Domri, small Garruk but the real heroes in that list are Keening Apparition and Selesnya Charm in early game control. The four planeswalkers already represents the synergy one to another. Fetches a card, exiles a card, put on tokens, add mana and play those cards. I'm sold.
Yeah.. this plan is much different than Monsters, but Keening Apparation seems reasonable. It's just awkward enough on a 2/2 body. Mind you I don't feel these decks actually want that many more 2 drops. He's play Voyaging Satyr instead of Mystic which I think perhaps amplifies this, but then again that's the only reasonable way to go with so many scrylands.
The thing with Chandra is that he doesn't have Domri, so it's probably a decent way to gain a lot of velocity, but I mean there is Ajani there too. I've found big Ajani decent but then in other matchups awkward. I personally don't like the planeswalker plan. I'm sure it's alright in a lot of places but it isn't as quick on it's feet. That being said there are things I do like and things that I have commented on before that I now feel I was wrong about.
1. Boros Charm is maindeckable. I started looking for that kill. Those free wins and it is definitely here. I keep on looking for ways to go over the top and truthfully the deck would love something like Bonfire of the Damned. Lacking that I figured I would tailor good over the top spells for each matchup. Boros Charm is more relevant even in it's bad matchups than I anticipated. In so it actually works out quite well. The indestructability on the defense actually does a pretty good Rift/Mortars impression and the double strike clearly wins games as well as the burn. Both Rift and Mortars don't have that burn to the face element that Bonfire had. In so I think Boros Charm shores up that. It's the charm to be playing in these decks. I almost want a 3rd in my 75. If you play monsters right you shouldn't need Selesnya Charm.. it's like a mirror tech or extra against Mono Black.. like bringing in Ultimate Price, but Selesnya Charm's other modes are so below rate it might even be a bit of a liability.
2. Banishing Light has it rough. Especially with all the incentive for anti enchantments. I've completely cut it. I mean yes, no kill alls is rough but carrying on the previous point you shouldn't need Doom Blade in this deck. The only problematic permanents are white, so stuff like Glare or Deicide end up being much more versatile. You only need this removal when you are the control in the matchup or as a hedge against all the white enchantment removal. Light was ok, but now that there is that x on it's head while a decent tempo play it's expensive and sorcery speed.. You get much more tempo doing something on their turn and getting them to replay their threat the next turn (usually more expensive than the removal they use on light).
3. Ajani's fine but slow and can be awkward. I think 2 in the 75 would be awesome, but I'm now in the camp I'd rather have Boros Charm main rather than Ajani. They are both good in the same matchups, but Boros Charm let's you just win. On a similar token I've removed Archangel from my Sideboard. I think it's a bit too awkward and slow.
4. We probably need a reasonable way to deal with early aggro. RB Aggro can be tough. Worse than burn for us generally I think. I think Trostani is amazing in most aggro matchups but the key thing is these decks generally are fairly low to the ground, but they get out of range sometimes before we can overload Mortars. I like Anger of the Gods again. Even with Voice.. maybe you side out 2 elves to save pain from shocks, you play out your voice and you start up chump blocking duty while they try to build, or get damage through. There is usually a window for Anger that actually isn't that bad for us. I mean our curve isn't that high. In those matchups getting to 4 fast is nice but after that point we don't need our dorks. Chump them off then clear their board.
5. Blue Splash.. I realize it's a weird thing, but I feel this deck is already in the market for Confluence since it wants to T2 Voice. That is different from GR or Jund. Maybe it isn't needed, but it pretty much wins me every green matchup. With Aetherize I have shored of Aggro and Hexproof(along with Deicide for Hexproof, and Rift..) quite well, Rift basically beats GU, Dredge, Constellations, Reanimator, GW, Monsters, Mono U. Then again Boros Charm might be good enough against all those, with some other support.
Oh and I cut a mutavault for another Temple. Our mana requirements are just that much stricter than other monsters lists unfortunately.
Currently testing this..
Yeah.. this plan is much different than Monsters, but Keening Apparation seems reasonable. It's just awkward enough on a 2/2 body. Mind you I don't feel these decks actually want that many more 2 drops. He's play Voyaging Satyr instead of Mystic which I think perhaps amplifies this, but then again that's the only reasonable way to go with so many scrylands.
Synergy between Voyaging Satyr with tapped lands is nice. It fixes the curve and allows you to use the land on the turn it ETB.
Yeah.. this plan is much different than Monsters, but Keening Apparation seems reasonable. It's just awkward enough on a 2/2 body. Mind you I don't feel these decks actually want that many more 2 drops. He's play Voyaging Satyr instead of Mystic which I think perhaps amplifies this, but then again that's the only reasonable way to go with so many scrylands.
Synergy between Voyaging Satyr with tapped lands is nice. It fixes the curve and allows you to use the land on the turn it ETB.
Sure, from a colour fixing perspective but it doesn't exactly negate the slow down of playing the Scryland. I mean yes, if your 3rd land comes into play tapped you still have 3 mana that turn, but you had to play a card for that, so instead of accelerating you are keeping on par. Same is true for Caryatid or Elvish Mystic. I think Satyr is probably right in that deck since it has only 11 T1 G sources (that's adequate) and more so with 8 tapped lands it wants to get them out of the hand T1. Especially since this deck is hollow at 3 mana outside of Courser. In the case of Courser on T3 you don't want to untap the new land anyway, so Caryatid and Mystic are equally adequate. Having less 3's does lower the incentive to play Mystic mind you since you can only really T2 Courser as well. But then again you don't need much in the way of fixing early in this list. I almost wonder if Golden Hind in some numbers is better in this list, just for the extra power. Regardless, my assertion is that the deck plays out very differently because it doesn't care as much about early ramp like T2 Domri, and is much more focused on 2-4, and in so has less grabby gotcha cards. That's good from avoid my own lines of play blowing me out perspective, but it takes out the ability to free win as much and slows down the ability to win games.
* It occurs to me I sound like I'm saying Keening Apparition is bad as a 2/2 which is not what I'm saying. When I say awkward enough, I meant for the opponent. It comes down early enough to get in some damage and then likely slow down their ability to disrupt or play their big threat early mid game.
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Yeah so Anger is too much of a Nombo. I suspected as much I mean that list had it. It's slightly worse here, but I don't think that SCG list even really wants it. It's more of like those matchups are so bad I have to hail merry through it. In so I actually think the right play is Unflinching Courage. I had trimmed those down since I think they are kind of awkward against burn, but against decks that you need to anger.. typically are some what low on removal. Voice can hold the early board decently. The problem and the reason I wanted Anger was that you can't attack into those boards a certain state. Unflinching resolves that. Or atleast long enough for Mortars Overload to come online. I've updated my list accordingly.
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I'm trying this list for a change. While 4 Mana Confluence MB can be risky but I think I want to give this approach a try. Unflinching Courage I would say a must. Against mirror or less creature removal spells can be an advantage. Even Jund Monsters might be having a tough time dealing with Unflinching Courage.
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Elvish Mystic
3 Polukranos, World Eater
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Sylvan Caryatid
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
2 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
2 Domri Rade
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Forest
3 Mana Confluence
1 Mountain
3 Mutavault
4 Stomping Ground
4 Temple Garden
4 Temple of Abandon
4 Temple of Plenty
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Arbor Colossus
2 Banishing Light
1 Blind Obedience
2 Deicide
2 Mistcutter Hydra
1 Mizzium Mortars
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Shock
2 Voice of Resurgence
This decklist my buddy gave me it's pretty sweet (thanks Myles)
That's a very conservative splash, which I like because it keeps you competitive. My main critical thought is that you don't seem to be profiting enough from the splash to justify it. Vanilla R/G will generally perform better because of its superior manabase, so you must justify bringing in the third color. In Jund, the primary reason to splash for black is removal and better anti-control tools in the sideboard. In Naya, I don't think Boros Charm is enough (Gruul is aggressive enough and does fine just playing around Verdict). I think you're missing out by not trying out other creatures. I understand you don't want to be Big/Brave Naya, but you really don't have to go that deep. There are two creatures I think could be really good:
Fleecemane Lion: Recently won the Pro Tour in Block Constructed, Lion is a Kalonian Tusker with big metagame upside. The 3/3 body for (2) is quietly the best aggressive purchase you can make in Standard. And like Patrick Chapin's Junk midrange deck that won the PT, Monsters actually benefits from an early aggressive creature. Lion will hold down the fort against aggro and punish opponents when they stumble. And it has good late game value that uses your mana, which is gas.
Aurelia, the Warleader: Is there a better finisher in Naya? I can't think of one. She's mana intensive, but I'm very sure that she's a good fit in maindeck Monsters as a 1-of or 2-of since the early accelerants make her a realistic turn 4/5 play. I'm not going to try to talk you out of Elspeth, but personally I think Aurelia fits the aggressive gameplan better.
I would consider running like 3x Fleecemane Lion, and to make room you could move the 2x Scavenging Ooze to the sideboard and shave 1x Mizzium Mortars. I would also cut Chandra for 1 maindeck Aurelia, see how she goes.
Other than that, I agree with Zealot that Banishing Light is a notable exclusion from your sideboard.
Thanks for the reply! I'll try to answer your questions in order. There are the full 4 Boros Charms simply because that was my starting point, 2 of them can easily be Selesnya Charms (which I had honestly debated some amount of anyway). The only other advantage to Plummet is that it hits (nearly) any creature with flying, whether it has the ability static or is granted it somehow (Ajani's -3 for example) and problem creatures such as Nightveil Specter. It's a tough call really. Plus, as you said, the other 2 modes of Selesnya Charm are very useful as well.
Unravel vs Deicide: I already had the Unravel's in my sb from being a straight G/R Monster list, just hadn't changed them out. But as I have the white now Deicide is probably the more logical choice.
The lack of Banishing Light is really just a matter of keeping my threat density at a certain minimum. There are tons of great cards that I could add in, but (imo) I would either end up with Big Naya or have to dilute my primary strategy.
Thanks for the input!
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici.
Thanks for the reply!
Fleecemain Lion could be worth trying out. It fits the same slot on the curve as Scooze, albeit the lack of added utility that the Ooze provides. It's a tough call really. Especially after watching the SCGOpen coverage this weekend, where Ooze seems to overperform most of the time it gets played. But I'm not adverse to testing the Lion.
The Boros Charms are mainly for use against removal and Supreme Verdict. G/R Monsters, while threat dense, can get hit hard by a well-timed Supreme Verdict. Boros Charm, like Chandra, is a bit of a meta call for my LGS. There is typically a good amount of removal that gets played and I know who the typical control players are. I'm not against shaving some amount of them 2 may be the sweet spot for that particular card.
Aurelia is an interesting idea. The extra combat step could certainly end games. I previously ran 2 Sylvan Primordial in my list to help against flyers and to get rid of non-creature permanents, so I'm not against trying different tech. I even try running a 1 of Archetype of Endurance from time to time.
My only qualm with Banishing light is that, while it's a good card, it may be a bit to reactive for what this list wants to accomplish. That, and it's a matter of what would I cut (and where) for them without diluting the core strategy of the deck? I could certainly be wrong though.
Thanks for the input!
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici.
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici.
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Voice of Resurgence
3 Courser of Kruphix
3 Ghor-Clan Rampager
3 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Stormbreath Dragon
Spells:13
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Selesnya Charm
2 Banishing Light
3 Domri Rade
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
2 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
3 Forest
1 Mana Confluence
2 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Stomping Ground
3 Temple Garden
4 Temple of Abandon
2 Temple of Plenty
3 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Boros Charm
2 Deicide
1 Mizzium Mortars
3 Scavenging Ooze
2 Nylea's Disciple
1 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
I've been playing Jund for a long while and I came to the conclusion Xenagos is actually the real secret weapon of the deck, and Voice plays to that plan so well. This is what makes Naya better than all the other monsters decks in my opinion. Mind you it wouldn't be as viable without a point and hit all. Dreadbore is arguably the best reason to play Jund (although I think Golgari Charm is right around the same level). Obviously Abrupt Decay lines up awkwardly for us against Banishing Light. But in this sort of deck you are usually just buying time to get ahead with your removal. If that demon comes back a turn later, so be it. Similarly while Boros Charm is a great tool, it has that same awkwardness as Golgari Charm where sometimes it's not worth the slot in the matchup. I'm not convinced Boros Charm main is good enough. The none threat slots are tough. I admittedly haven't tried it main in post JOU standard but I tried it post Born of the Gods and it wasn't good enough, mind you the whole deck wasn't good enough. I could see it part of a good all in plan though. But then it feels more like Flesh/Blood. More versatile but you notice how no one plays that anymore.
The going big part is part of the problem. With Ajani we have the perfect analog to Vraska which is very important in Jund against slower decks as it lets you play proactive removal since you need to be playing spells every turn and can't afford to be holding removal and not progressing yoyr game. Ajani is better in that you know you will find your next threat. I bruteforced through an Elspeth with Ajani (I mean finding a Ghor Clan helped) but I had never had that situation. I added counters to make my Xenagos Token and Elf 3/3's alongside a Dragon I had in hand. And I kept the tokens in check as I managed to push through and take the Elspeth down. All that being said Stormbreath is the decks finisher period. I was testing Junk Monsters basically right around set release and it was awesome. It is actually more aggressive than this deck the way I made it and it worked probably even better than Naya except... Archangel of Thune wasn't good enough. The deck fell apart at 5. Advent and little Ajani along with the rest of the team did good work. But Archangel was just such a downgrade (in case you were wondering Blood Baron was no good either, that card needs to be backed up by removal or your opponent can still race on pure critical mass, it doesn't have the same effect of being quick or getting games stupidly out of hand). I think we're stuck in this format to find a great top of the curve. Sylvan Primordial just pulls you into more of a grind fest and doesn't close. Aurelia might get in herself, for a surprise 6 but if the board is jammed the board is jammed. She needs more dedication. Garruk is decent but doesn't win it on it's own it takes time. In a 23 land build stopping the curve generally at Ajani makes a lot of sense. The difference between 5-6-7 is actually pretty huge without an active Xenagos. Elspeth might be the best curve topper but doesn't fit the timing of the deck. The timing of the deck is designed to make Domri the biggest pain for your opponent.. Domri is why we don't play Advent. I mean Polukranos has a more important role but Advent is a decent supplementary 4. It is very difficult to keep Domri and go down in creature count. Mind you there is still room for Elspeth. I ultimately decided that we already have the best top end and that the most powerful effect when things get convoluted is Rift, but I don't expect people to necessarily agree with me on that.
The other key reason Naya is better than other variations is that I believe because of Voice and possibly other white critical mass threats like Trostani or Archangel, we don't need to run as much removal. In Jund especially I always felt like I wanted to board to less creatures against Control and Black. In Naya my creature count stays relatively the same if not goes up. Domri gets better where he's supposed to. I was exploring these sort of sideboards with Jund and GR, but they were always more of a compromise. In Naya you have the tools. Instead of bringing in Doom Blades in the green mirror bring in Archangel etc.. Instead of having to play even more removal than the Mortars and the Lights against little aggro or devotion, bring in Trostani. Voice sort of ties it all together so that you can don't need as much removal against D-Demon or try to hard with Wrath protection playing conservatively. Voice generally puts more pressure on their early removal which makes your planes walkers better. All in all it means the deck doesn't need to board so drastically and it stays good at what it does.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
It is certainly a reactive card. The idea here is though that some times we need to respond to certain threats as we can. Jund Monsters is very good at this with Golgari Charm and Abrupt Decay among the rest of their disruption.
In fact we can somewhat equate the use of Banishing Light to Thoughtseize in the Jund lists. Thoughtseize is used by Jund to catch problem cards in the opponents hands before they can cast them. Unfortunately for us, white doesn't really have this catch all. For us we need to use multiple cards to answer their threats. Banishing Light in a way is our Plummet/Selesnya charm 3-4, our mortars 3-5, our deicide/unravel 3-4, and one of our better answers to planeswalkers that doesn't require us devoting turns swinging into them.
Tate, your list is extremely similar to mine. The main thing I can see is the 3 coursers. I feel it is one our core cards and deserves to be a four of. Any reason behind only 3?
Hope everyone does well at game day today, looking forward to seeing some results posts later.
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
Either way I'm glad people are having success with these sort of lists. I think with a little work we will have something good, probably better than other Monster variants.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
I'm with you on the sentiments about Voice, and I was actually going to recommend it, but after some analysis I realized that the gameplan of Monsters isn't to flood the field but instead ramp into something big and unstoppable (on the battlefield). While Voice has a lot more total value by being a 2-for-1 AND a hate bear, Fleecemane Lion has greater lategame value for Monsters by essentially being an overloadable 7-cmc monster. And yeah, Lion will 99% of the time eat kill spells when it's cast early, but hey that's one less kill spell to fade with your bigger and more expensive threats.
I would fault no one for playing Voice over Lion, but fundamentally I think it draws us away from the Monsters strategy of "ramp into something big."
The nonbo between Advent of the Wurm and Domri matters, but I think the boon of it dodging Lifebane Zombie makes up a bit of difference in black devotion matchups, making it sideboardable at the least. Also, it's my perception that players tend to overvalue maximizing the Domri +1; he's a 3-mana planeswalker, so a 33% chance to hit (20 creatures) is the bare minimum to run him in my book. It's an arbitrary percentage but I value his repeatable fight and emblem far more than 1/2 a card per turn. We're not playing the long game, that's for sure.
Monsters is a funny deck in that the way it plays is very different than what the game plan looks like. The thing is it has to win on threat density like all decks of this nature but the threats aren't actually comparatively that good in the format. It's been one of those contradictions. It makes playing the deck feel a bit awkward, because resolving a big spell and actually having it stick around a turn might not win you the game. It isn't an aggro deck to be sure but kind of like GW Gavony which wasn't a Token deck explicitly, the fact you can continue to develop your board while they kill every good card you play in some matchups is actually it's saving grace.. Yes we can gold fish a T3 Dragon, into a T4 Dragon and win some matches, but in a lot places that actually does nothing. Nothing is unstoppable in this format (save maybe Blood Baron, who is slow as molasses, and is weak to Mortars and big Green creatures). Stormbreath isn't bad, but it's the haste that makes the difference because a lot of these decks don't need much to critical mass you and basically one shot you. I think it's partially this reason why decks don't even seem selective about their removal. They just try to kill everything one by one. Usually this isn't good enough of a strategy, but now it seems to be. They can afford to kill every innane 2 drop because even if they don't have removal for the 2nd dragon, they will draw it next turn. This closeness between threats and one for ones is so close that some amount of Scry is necessary even for us. Annoying since it affects curves but we need to keep hitting threats just to try to keep ahead. It makes Domri, Courser, Ajani etc so much better than they should be (assuming they live). I mean Reaper of the Wilds is not a great card, but a lot better in this format for that reason. In this format every game goes longer than it should pretty much. Playing the longish game is a reality.
So I'd actually say Monsters is a bit of a bait and switch. Your opponent tries to deal with the "threats" and loses to the fact that you've been playing stuff to the board every turn while they've had to be reactive. If you are on the defense it's a different game (the mines bigger than yours game). I think it's essential to have both game plans running smoothly. While Polukranos or Stormbreath might lead the charge so to speak, I think it's the Voice sac'd to demon the turn before to put them in range or the Xenagos Token that kills the Elspeth that wins these games. We have no choice to but be drawn into these incremental value games to some degree. I'm not convinced Lion is better than Scavenging Ooze. Mind you all our 2 drops are below rate so maybe it doesn't matter much. They do all need to have some late to mid game application so Lion fits that mold. I think the monstrous mechanic kind of sucks mind you. It's acceptable but I like the idea of having things that don't need to live to get value. Ooze always will gain you the life and Voice doesn't require investment. But I mean we lean on the other two monsters so that seems alright.
EDIT:
Advent is fine, and there have been times I've played it over other 4 drops. I'm not sure where it's particularly good though. Flash against control EoT I guess. It's another big creatures against aggro but we have a lot of those. Against black it is just smaller than Demon without offering a way to get past. Avoiding Lifebane is good, but I think once you make the choice to go Ghor Clan it's difficult to avoid Lifebane, in that you can't possibly sideout all your green 4's. And when push comes to shove I'd rather have a resolved Polukranos. Advent might be just awkward enough that you get the swing in because timing for when to play removal, so Demon aside (which much easier to ignore with Voice) Advent has some upside. I mean I was actually in a Junk deck playing it with Trostani out of board as another way to just go over the top. But it's a thin line.. I mean Advent also dies to Abrupt Decay and the Domri issue. I mean I'm in the camp that said Domri needs no less than 27 creatures and 28 is the sweet spot. Courser let's us play a little less I guess. But playing Jund where there is a lot of incentive to drop creatures for powerful spells, dropping below 25 creatures made Domri that much worse. I never wanted less than 23 in any postboard configuration that included Domri in numbers. This is one of the issues I have with Jund and why I like Naya more. I think Advent could still fit in those bounds as small number in the board. I just wonder if it's that significant of an upgrade over say like Mistcutter Hydra in a lot of those slots. Mind you my board plan against Mono Black is pretty weak. It involves boarding out Rift, a Polukranos, maybe a Ghor Clan, and bringing in a couple Scavenging Ooze's. I don't think that matchup is bad by any means. BBD was quoted saying he like Jund Monsters in the first open of the season since he didn't want to lose to black. I think Naya is even better there naturally.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Lion over Ooze is close in my amateur eyes, it could very well be that the Ooze has greater lategame value due to the lifegain. The main sticking point for me is that the 3/3 body versus 2/2, makes a massive difference in the early turns of combat (walling Pack Rat, putting an early clock on U/W). The funny thing is that although Lion is clearly the weakest card among Ooze/Voice/Lion, the fact that it straddles both the mid-to-late game and early game well are why I think it might be a better maindeck candidate. But yeah, could be wrong there, I may have to switch to Naya and see.
4 Temple Garden
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Stomping Ground
2 Temple of Plenty
1 Temple of Abandon
3 Mana Confluence
2 Mutavault
3 Forest
Creatures(25):
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Voice of Resurgence
2 Courser of Kruphix
3 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Ghor Clan Rampager
4 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Cyclonic Rift
4 Domri Rade
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
2 Boros Charm
2 Glare of Heresy
1 Deicide
3 Scavenging Ooze
1 Aetherize
2 Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
2 Archangel of Thune
2 Mistcutter Hydra
My sideboard is probably still too experimental.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
3 Keening Apparition
3 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Voyaging Satyr
3 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
2 Selesnya Charm
3 Forest
2 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Stomping Ground
4 Temple Garden
4 Temple of Abandon
4 Temple of Plenty
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Deicide
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
3 Fiendslayer Paladin
2 Magma Spray
3 Mistcutter Hydra
3 Unflinching Courage
Thoughts?
Currently playing:
Standard: Superfriends!
Legacy: Nic Fit / Pod
Pauper: Delvar; Tron; Flicker Stuff
Commander: Riku ("Some weird doubple spell thing happened"); Keranos ("I did a Gatherer search for 'random' and 'flip a coin.'"); Superfriends!
I love the Apparition, that's true technology. This also seems like one of the best shells for the new Ajani, though he's very versatile.
I don't love Voyaging Satyr but can't think of any better options. I particularly dislike Chandra here, Justin explained that she combos off with Courser and does a lot of killing in some matchups. She doesn't seem maindeck worthy to me though, I'd much rather have a Boros Charm.
All in all a slightly more controlling Monsters variant, I do like it.
Seems like a real metagame call to me. The sort of deck that doesn't want to deal with main deck Doom Blade from Esper which is sure to turn up in response.
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
The thing with Chandra is that he doesn't have Domri, so it's probably a decent way to gain a lot of velocity, but I mean there is Ajani there too. I've found big Ajani decent but then in other matchups awkward. I personally don't like the planeswalker plan. I'm sure it's alright in a lot of places but it isn't as quick on it's feet. That being said there are things I do like and things that I have commented on before that I now feel I was wrong about.
1. Boros Charm is maindeckable. I started looking for that kill. Those free wins and it is definitely here. I keep on looking for ways to go over the top and truthfully the deck would love something like Bonfire of the Damned. Lacking that I figured I would tailor good over the top spells for each matchup. Boros Charm is more relevant even in it's bad matchups than I anticipated. In so it actually works out quite well. The indestructability on the defense actually does a pretty good Rift/Mortars impression and the double strike clearly wins games as well as the burn. Both Rift and Mortars don't have that burn to the face element that Bonfire had. In so I think Boros Charm shores up that. It's the charm to be playing in these decks. I almost want a 3rd in my 75. If you play monsters right you shouldn't need Selesnya Charm.. it's like a mirror tech or extra against Mono Black.. like bringing in Ultimate Price, but Selesnya Charm's other modes are so below rate it might even be a bit of a liability.
2. Banishing Light has it rough. Especially with all the incentive for anti enchantments. I've completely cut it. I mean yes, no kill alls is rough but carrying on the previous point you shouldn't need Doom Blade in this deck. The only problematic permanents are white, so stuff like Glare or Deicide end up being much more versatile. You only need this removal when you are the control in the matchup or as a hedge against all the white enchantment removal. Light was ok, but now that there is that x on it's head while a decent tempo play it's expensive and sorcery speed.. You get much more tempo doing something on their turn and getting them to replay their threat the next turn (usually more expensive than the removal they use on light).
3. Ajani's fine but slow and can be awkward. I think 2 in the 75 would be awesome, but I'm now in the camp I'd rather have Boros Charm main rather than Ajani. They are both good in the same matchups, but Boros Charm let's you just win. On a similar token I've removed Archangel from my Sideboard. I think it's a bit too awkward and slow.
4. We probably need a reasonable way to deal with early aggro. RB Aggro can be tough. Worse than burn for us generally I think. I think Trostani is amazing in most aggro matchups but the key thing is these decks generally are fairly low to the ground, but they get out of range sometimes before we can overload Mortars. I like Anger of the Gods again. Even with Voice.. maybe you side out 2 elves to save pain from shocks, you play out your voice and you start up chump blocking duty while they try to build, or get damage through. There is usually a window for Anger that actually isn't that bad for us. I mean our curve isn't that high. In those matchups getting to 4 fast is nice but after that point we don't need our dorks. Chump them off then clear their board.
5. Blue Splash.. I realize it's a weird thing, but I feel this deck is already in the market for Confluence since it wants to T2 Voice. That is different from GR or Jund. Maybe it isn't needed, but it pretty much wins me every green matchup. With Aetherize I have shored of Aggro and Hexproof(along with Deicide for Hexproof, and Rift..) quite well, Rift basically beats GU, Dredge, Constellations, Reanimator, GW, Monsters, Mono U. Then again Boros Charm might be good enough against all those, with some other support.
Oh and I cut a mutavault for another Temple. Our mana requirements are just that much stricter than other monsters lists unfortunately.
Currently testing this..
4 Temple Garden
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Stomping Ground
2 Temple of Plenty
1 Temple of Abandon
1 Temple of Triumph
3 Mana Confluence
1 Mutavault
3 Forest
Creatures(25):
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Voice of Resurgence
2 Courser of Kruphix
3 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Ghor Clan Rampager
4 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Boros Charm
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Cyclonic Rift
4 Domri Rade
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
2 Deicide
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Mizzium Mortars
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Unflinching Courage
1 Aetherize
2 Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
3 Mistcutter Hydra
1 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Synergy between Voyaging Satyr with tapped lands is nice. It fixes the curve and allows you to use the land on the turn it ETB.
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
Sure, from a colour fixing perspective but it doesn't exactly negate the slow down of playing the Scryland. I mean yes, if your 3rd land comes into play tapped you still have 3 mana that turn, but you had to play a card for that, so instead of accelerating you are keeping on par. Same is true for Caryatid or Elvish Mystic. I think Satyr is probably right in that deck since it has only 11 T1 G sources (that's adequate) and more so with 8 tapped lands it wants to get them out of the hand T1. Especially since this deck is hollow at 3 mana outside of Courser. In the case of Courser on T3 you don't want to untap the new land anyway, so Caryatid and Mystic are equally adequate. Having less 3's does lower the incentive to play Mystic mind you since you can only really T2 Courser as well. But then again you don't need much in the way of fixing early in this list. I almost wonder if Golden Hind in some numbers is better in this list, just for the extra power. Regardless, my assertion is that the deck plays out very differently because it doesn't care as much about early ramp like T2 Domri, and is much more focused on 2-4, and in so has less grabby gotcha cards. That's good from avoid my own lines of play blowing me out perspective, but it takes out the ability to free win as much and slows down the ability to win games.
* It occurs to me I sound like I'm saying Keening Apparition is bad as a 2/2 which is not what I'm saying. When I say awkward enough, I meant for the opponent. It comes down early enough to get in some damage and then likely slow down their ability to disrupt or play their big threat early mid game.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
3 Keening Apparition
4 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Courser of Kruphix
3 Polukranos, World Eater
3 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Domri Rade
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
Spells
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Selesnya Charm
Lands
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Mana Confluence
9 Forest
4 Stomping Ground
2 Mutavault
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG