That's true, and the most likely EOT time would be someone playing Sphinx's Revelation, at which point, they take 6 mitigating or negating their lifegain off the Rev, and then a Geyser on top of that. It hurts to play the geyser, but I think mid-late game it's gonna hurt them a whole lot more.
Nice write up Cass! I appreciate you taking your time to help us make informed decisions before we delve into hardcore testing.
The one gripe I have with the 4 drop evaluation is that I think GCR should have 2 stars against midrange. I say this because the recent list I have been testing he has been very useful against both B/W Midrange and other green based midrange decks. The fact that it's a 4/4 blocker when needed to be, an aggressive 4/4 trampler when on the attack, and practically a removal spell/game ender when used at the right time leads me to believe this guy deserves a spot in just about every G/R list unless you are going full ramp.
@Skyrian-
Thank you, and thanks for the feedback. These stars are absolutely not set in stone by any means, and in the long term, or even a few months from now, or one new set could change all of these evaluations. :> I fully want your feedback from those who have rigorously tested, if you feel a rating is off (at the moment) please fill us in, and why you think it deserves +1 or -1. The goal is for these ratings to be good/useful for the here and now.
I think after I post part 3, I will go back and erase my previous posts with them, and post up a full version with revisions/proper editing. This has all been done at work, sporadically.
On GCR;
how did you feel he was "good" rather than "fair" in the B/W matchup? I understand some of them are even using Alms Beast as a roadblock nowdays. My biggest gripe about GCR has always been Desecration Demon // Loxodon Smiter (different deck, less of an issue). I guess my question is, what creatures was GCR good against from the B/W you've tested? My experience is biased, and the black based brews I fear/hate the most goes to B/R - featuring Desecration Demon + Master of Cruelties (completely next to impossible to deal with, but don't worry about it unless B/R becomes popular). In all fairness, none of the other 4 drops will profitably get through D Demon without *some* extra work, a Monstrous activation, or a Bestow, or something.
One other thing I think should be absolutely stressed in the evaluations disclaimer; the rudimentary assumption that both your deck and the opponent's are operating at good or ideal capacity. That should go without saying, but taking it a step further, I envision "midrange wars" as Naya with Loxodon Smiter or Boros Reckoner on field, B/x midrange with Desecration Demon or Reaper of the Wilds, basically they are going big and clogging the ground just like we want to, and match us creature for creature. How do we get through it, is the fundamental question, or go bigger? GCR in that broader sense, feels very useful in dealing the finishing blow when you're ready to go through, but until then, he sits there on field unable to attack or waiting for the right moment to be Bloodrushed often-times.
I wouldn't mind at all giving GCR a 2 star rating as opposed to 1, it really is quite tentative. The one hard and fast rule that is true though, GCR *is* better the faster your deck wants to be, perhaps I'm assigning a lower rating due to my more defensive midrange bias.
EDIT: added to prevent double posting-
This is something that I am currently debating in my own midrange list. I run 2x Hammer of Purphoros which makes choosing my 5 drop a little harder. As of now I need to decide which 5-drop I want to run. My choices are..
I think I've come close to figuring out some more pros and cons that might make the 5 drop decision a bit easier, I'll go line by line, and this will help me do the 5-drop write up later.
1)Stormbreath Dragon: Most aggressive option with build in protection. The dragon is definitely the best choice against control but can be poor against aggro lists. Also a little redundant with hammer on the field.
The new Dragon stacks up very poorly against aggro, that's a definite fact, and his biggest strike is that he feels like Thundermaw Hellkite...when it's not actually what you want/you're behind/not ready to race. In all fairness, it's better to have access to the bomb in your deck if you did need it, than to blame it on not being defensive enough when you needed to stabilize.
Then again, it's important to note that Thundermaw COULD swing a lot of IMPOSSIBLE races, because tapping their fliers meant your ground guys could swing in too! They're fair comparisons, and I for one just straight up believe Stormbreath doesn't come close, the bar was set very high for him unfortunately.
For these reasons, Sylvan Caryatid is probably indisputably correct in Stormbreath lists, or having more early creatures that respect aggro more, buying you the critical turns for you to execute an air strike properly.
Also, I do agree that Hammer is redundant, and despite being a hell of a card, it's worth seeing/counting how many times the redundant interaction comes up in real games.
This guy gets my vote at 5, for all of the reasons you mentioned. I find that if you're going all in on Arbor Colossus, and including Nylea in your list, the fact that Arbor Colossus is mediocre against control is somewhat alleviated by his Devotion enabling GGG. It is a small synergy, and not always game changing, but I strongly feel those two are a package deal - Colossus needs his trample, and Nylea needs her devotion. Colossus can be definitely decent on his own without her, but it's questionable if he's not just better on the board then as anti-flying tech. He's unimpressive as a finisher on his own without trample, in midrange wars. If you want your Colossus to be both an awesome threat stopper as well as a finisher in his own right, I really think you need to give Nylea a try with him in the same list.
TLDR: I'm seeing solid build around themes for Gruul as either a true balanced G/R midrange shell, with many different elements, or a more focused ground sledgehammer with splash devotion to green at this point.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Stock version here. I do not have a whole lot to say about it other than I do like the idea of Ruric Thar in the maindeck as a 1 of. Hedonist might get cut for something, I am not entirely sure what. Maybe Druid, not sure.
Stock version here. I do not have a whole lot to say about it other than I do like the idea of Ruric Thar in the maindeck as a 1 of. Hedonist might get cut for something, I am not entirely sure what. Maybe Druid, not sure.
I could see the bow being a 2 of been strong, it just allows for many options to use your mana as well as forcing unfavorable blocks.
is khalonian hydra too easy to remove so we aren't considering it anymore? Does garruk have a place in the list anywhere?
I have not piloted this list, this is my teams list and I have only played against it.
My observations at this point are as already mentioned, I have had Swallower go online a couple times against myself and Naya Midrange, generally it is off Xenagos mana. We are currently discussing a full set of Xenagos but I am not sure that will fly, it seems a little overboard.
Hydra is too slow in my opinion, I might consider the Mistcutter because he can go big and quick if you have an opening. Garruk is a lot of mana I am not sure I want to spend on him, I would rather just trigger monstrous or drop Mistcutter Hydra.
@Skyrian-
Thank you, and thanks for the feedback. These stars are absolutely not set in stone by any means, and in the long term, or even a few months from now, or one new set could change all of these evaluations. :> I fully want your feedback from those who have rigorously tested, if you feel a rating is off (at the moment) please fill us in, and why you think it deserves +1 or -1. The goal is for these ratings to be good/useful for the here and now.
I think after I post part 3, I will go back and erase my previous posts with them, and post up a full version with revisions/proper editing. This has all been done at work, sporadically.
On GCR;
how did you feel he was "good" rather than "fair" in the B/W matchup? I understand some of them are even using Alms Beast as a roadblock nowdays. My biggest gripe about GCR has always been Desecration Demon // Loxodon Smiter (different deck, less of an issue). I guess my question is, what creatures was GCR good against from the B/W you've tested? My experience is biased, and the black based brews I fear/hate the most goes to B/R - featuring Desecration Demon + Master of Cruelties (completely next to impossible to deal with, but don't worry about it unless B/R becomes popular). In all fairness, none of the other 4 drops will profitably get through D Demon without *some* extra work, a Monstrous activation, or a Bestow, or something.
One other thing I think should be absolutely stressed in the evaluations disclaimer; the rudimentary assumption that both your deck and the opponent's are operating at good or ideal capacity. That should go without saying, but taking it a step further, I envision "midrange wars" as Naya with Loxodon Smiter or Boros Reckoner on field, B/x midrange with Desecration Demon or Reaper of the Wilds, basically they are going big and clogging the ground just like we want to, and match us creature for creature. How do we get through it, is the fundamental question, or go bigger? GCR in that broader sense, feels very useful in dealing the finishing blow when you're ready to go through, but until then, he sits there on field unable to attack or waiting for the right moment to be Bloodrushed often-times.
I wouldn't mind at all giving GCR a 2 star rating as opposed to 1, it really is quite tentative. The one hard and fast rule that is true though, GCR *is* better the faster your deck wants to be, perhaps I'm assigning a lower rating due to my more defensive midrange bias.
EDIT: added to prevent double posting-
I think I've come close to figuring out some more pros and cons that might make the 5 drop decision a bit easier, I'll go line by line, and this will help me do the 5-drop write up later.
The new Dragon stacks up very poorly against aggro, that's a definite fact, and his biggest strike is that he feels like Thundermaw Hellkite...when it's not actually what you want/you're behind/not ready to race. In all fairness, it's better to have access to the bomb in your deck if you did need it, than to blame it on not being defensive enough when you needed to stabilize.
Then again, it's important to note that Thundermaw COULD swing a lot of IMPOSSIBLE races, because tapping their fliers meant your ground guys could swing in too! They're fair comparisons, and I for one just straight up believe Stormbreath doesn't come close, the bar was set very high for him unfortunately.
For these reasons, Sylvan Caryatid is probably indisputably correct in Stormbreath lists, or having more early creatures that respect aggro more, buying you the critical turns for you to execute an air strike properly.
Also, I do agree that Hammer is redundant, and despite being a hell of a card, it's worth seeing/counting how many times the redundant interaction comes up in real games.
This guy gets my vote at 5, for all of the reasons you mentioned. I find that if you're going all in on Arbor Colossus, and including Nylea in your list, the fact that Arbor Colossus is mediocre against control is somewhat alleviated by his Devotion enabling GGG. It is a small synergy, and not always game changing, but I strongly feel those two are a package deal - Colossus needs his trample, and Nylea needs her devotion. Colossus can be definitely decent on his own without her, but it's questionable if he's not just better on the board then as anti-flying tech. He's unimpressive as a finisher on his own without trample, in midrange wars. If you want your Colossus to be both an awesome threat stopper as well as a finisher in his own right, I really think you need to give Nylea a try with him in the same list.
TLDR: I'm seeing solid build around themes for Gruul as either a true balanced G/R midrange shell, with many different elements, or a more focused ground sledgehammer with splash devotion to green at this point.
@ Cassial, after playing roughly 8 games against B/W Midrange I found that the only way I won was going big and going fast, and capatalizing on them dealing 4-6 damage to themselves every game. I did this with fast ramps into my fatties and the hammer speeding up my clock quite a bit. But one major problem I had was the Alms Beast's and Desecration Demon totally shutting my aggression off. The one way I found to get out of that was GCR effectivly becoming a removal spell that lets me trample the last points of damage in.
Also how important is everyone finding Domri Rade to the midrange strategy? I see every list has an instant 4-of and I am curious if it is because it's what was called for pre rotation so we are all just used to it, or is he really just that good? i have been testing a version without him and running a 2-of Chandra, Pyromaster instead to some pretty great results.
After playing a ton on cockatrice and with my play group...I'm modifying my list.
(you can take this as a rant if you want but I think I snapped).
Call me bitter but I thought I would be getting a brand new fresh enviornment with Theros Standard, but nope. People want...no NEED to cling on to those "winning" strategies and play Jund/UWR/UW/ ect. sticking to Star City Premium articles like glue so they can try to win Opens and States, and Star city LOVES their midrange/control lists.
Desecration demon backed with removal is just so hard to stop. I just felt I was running into them literally every game on Cockatrice, and playing extensivly even more within my group (mainly one of them wanting to bring BG Desecration Demon to States).
I'm just fed up, so..here is my new list if you think Demon and whatever else is an issue, this is totally not tested against aggro.
No gods. No Domri. Huge monsters. (again this is me just going crazy).
I just want creatures, all big creatures. I'm dropping Domri and just going the bigger walker plan. Chandra and Bow to help against Desecration Demon, they are both good against him, might as well PLAY both. Xenagos is back in, I want guys to sac to demon every turn, and I want to ramp into Monsterous triggers.
This is tonight's Sam Black Midrange Monsters list, I love it, I always play the Zvi decks and this is right up that ally. What do you guys think about this build?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
BBBB mono black midrange RRRR mono red aggro GWGW selesnya aggro
This is tonight's Sam Black Midrange Monsters list, I love it, I always play the Zvi decks and this is right up that ally. What do you guys think about this build?
I'd run Sylvan Caryatid over the Voyaging Satyr. Looks like he tries to ramp quickly and make either creature monstrous. I feel it may have a bit too much ramp (16 continual, 4 one shot, 4 walkers)) and not enough big hitters in case one is removed. Could be interesting, will need testing. I like the Garruk in there, but his minus really only helps polukranos, so another big green fatty would be nice.
Here is the deck I am currently running. I play tested last night against R/W/G Aggro and R/B/W Control. I originally was running Domri with Xenagos but to be honest he just doesn't perform well enough. My goal is to ramp as fast as possible to play the big fatties and blow up 3 lands with ember swallower.
The only card I am unsure about is Ghor-Clan. I am also not sure about the 2 ? in my side board.
Can anyone give me any suggestions and please provide some feedback on my deck choice? THANK YOU!_!
Ember Swallower~ Will usually hit monstrosity on turn 5 with the help of the XMAN (Xenagos, the Reveler)... A nice sized body as a 4/5 usually give me the advantage of most aggro decks... especially against the likes of the Loxodon Smiter...
Kalonian Hydra~ I know this card has been debated over and over on this forum but I love it either with the Ogre Battledriver, or in this case the Hammer of Purphoros, With haste the hydra pretty much puts your opponent on a two turn clock after you take into effect the early damage that you have caused with the Zhur-Taa Druid , and combat tricks such as Boon Satyrand Ghor-Clan Rampager, given they dont have spot removal in hand to answer the Hydra.
Hammer of Purphoros~
This card is very nice and largely being overlooked right now.... It makes all of our creatures a threat with haste. and it still provides us creatures post sweepers such as Supreme Verdict .
Stormbreath Dragon~
I have him in my sideboard mainly because Im yet to make room for him in the main....
Ruric Thar, the Unbowed~
He is the superstar in the deck.... He is powerful enough to make control decks scoop when he hits the board, he is too big for aggro to deal with, and he stops all three of the main flying threats, (Archangel of Thune, Stormbreath Dragon, and he trades with Desecration Demon.
[CARD]
Legion Loyalist[/CARD]~
This may be the most interesting choice of the 75 cards.... I have him here for one and only one matchup.... GW Tokens... yes it is a deck that I see a lot of in my local meta... Thus this may only be a good choice for me and not you....
Quote from VinXeroHere is the deck I am currently running. I play tested last night against R/W/G Aggro and R/B/W Control. I originally was running Domri with Xenagos but to be honest he just doesn't perform well enough. My goal is to ramp as fast as possible to play the big fatties and blow up 3 lands with ember swallower.
The only card I am unsure about is Ghor-Clan. I am also not sure about the 2 ? in my side board.
Can anyone give me any suggestions and please provide some feedback on my deck choice? THANK YOU!_!
Since you get so much value from the Ember Swallower.... Why not make the 2? in your sideboard Peak Eruption.... Against anything running mountains this could be the best follow up play after a Monstrosity Ember... Might be the back breaker....
**Primer updated everyone, thank you for your continued effort.**
I'm starting to see a trend and familiarity between the decks everyone is posting. So I think we're all honing in on very similar lists and card choices. That's what I like to see.
The most important part now is less "hey look at my list, or is this card good?" posts more Results ...I, as well as many other members are going to highly value detailed results and all your notes about our match-ups. Refer to the primer for a good place to start testing. Tell us what's working, what's not working. Dont tell us WHY you chose a certain build or certain card. Tell us HOW the cards and deck performed, what can be changed for certain good or bad matchups.
We don't have that much more time! Get to testing!
I believe our current RG build is competitive enough to fit into current meta. We are great against control, early drop Boon Satyr, ramp Ember Swallower and Ruric Thar seems to be the trump cards. Race against aggro-midrange to drop Miz Mortars since they have a more or less similar style with lack of removal but we ramp faster.
On the other hand, I've failed to win a single match against RDW. Even if I manage to sweep them at T4, my life is already at 3-5, and while waiting for next turn to drop Bow and gain life, they could just Strike later on. Often at T5 a win. Few games that I have lost, against UB mill and Bw with Obzedat, Gray Merchant of Asphodel, Rescue from the Underworld and of course, D-Demon.
I believe our current RG build is competitive enough to fit into current meta. We are great against control, early drop Boon Satyr, ramp Ember Swallower and Ruric Thar seems to be the trump cards. Race against aggro-midrange to drop Miz Mortars since they have a more or less similar style with lack of removal but we ramp faster.
On the other hand, I've failed to win a single match against RDW. Even if I manage to sweep them at T4, my life is already at 3-5, and while waiting for next turn to drop Bow and gain life, they could just Strike later on. Often at T5 a win. Few games that I have lost, against UB mill and Bw with Obzedat, Gray Merchant of Asphodel, Rescue from the Underworld and of course, D-Demon.
RDW is kind tough I do agree with that, but If i get a turn 3 Ember Swallower into a Arbor Colossus I kinda of just make them sit there for a few turns throwing burn spells at my face.
what do you guys recommend both mainboard and sideboard against RDW because I fully expect the deck to be 30-40% of the meta come states.
RDW is kind tough I do agree with that, but If i get a turn 3 Ember Swallower into a Arbor Colossus I kinda of just make them sit there for a few turns throwing burn spells at my face.
what do you guys recommend both mainboard and sideboard against RDW because I fully expect the deck to be 30-40% of the meta come states.
It may sound silly, but SB Nylea's Disciple has proven really good in that matchup, especially if your'e playing Nylea's Bow MD (which I think people should be playing).
It may sound silly, but SB Nylea's Disciple has proven really good in that matchup, especially if your'e playing Nylea's Bow MD (which I think people should be playing).
I've been testing 2 bows in my build and the only matches i've played with bow in the deck was against G/W aggro and RDW.
All I can say is this, against G/W it during the end game the card is amazing. Plenty of situations where it is basically my elves and oozes
with your Wurms and Smiters or take lethal. I've also won games with a ghor clan bloodrushed on a creature where I dealt one point of lethal damage to something and sent the rest to the opponent's face.
Against a Red deck the gain life ability is your friend. Also useful for killing those Phoenix's and having Ooze get them out of the graveyard.
I forgot who above stated this but yea RDW is good and is a problem for this deck. Their explosive starts are just well... explosive.
on an ending note is 2 bows the right number? I've never been completely fond of having just 2 copies of a card in decks because a lot of the time you don't really draw them. But I also understand that it is legendary and you would not want to draw multiples.
It may sound silly, but SB Nylea's Disciple has proven really good in that matchup, especially if your'e playing Nylea's Bow MD (which I think people should be playing).
I have to give this a try. Probably having 3 Nylea's Disciple in SB could help game 2 against RDW, especially if manage to drop on T3 after Elf and Boon Satyr. Bow of Nylea IMO is a must for me, 2 in MB and 1 in SB. It supports so much in play, and saved my Ruric vs D-Demon. Scooze, I'm starting to think of having it already, if reanimate deck is a thing among meta.
4 burning tree emmissary
4 ogre battledriver
4 ghor clan rampager
4 stormbreath dragon
4 elvish mystic
4 zhur-taa druid
2 polukranos world eater
3 domri rade
2 xenagos the reveler
4 stomping ground
3 temple of abandon
8 forest
8 mountain
what you guys think of a list like this? i really think battledriver can replace hellrider and makes your mana dorks worth somthing late game.
Modern:
BRG DEMIGOD Jund GRB
UB TEZZ Control BU
That's true, and the most likely EOT time would be someone playing Sphinx's Revelation, at which point, they take 6 mitigating or negating their lifegain off the Rev, and then a Geyser on top of that. It hurts to play the geyser, but I think mid-late game it's gonna hurt them a whole lot more.
Avatar and Sig by Xen's Inkfox Aesthetics
GWLambs and LionsWG
GMono-Green BeatsG
Testing: BGRock VariantGB
GWBJanky JunkGWB
UWGMimic BantrolUWG
BWApostleypse NowBW
Thank you, and thanks for the feedback. These stars are absolutely not set in stone by any means, and in the long term, or even a few months from now, or one new set could change all of these evaluations. :> I fully want your feedback from those who have rigorously tested, if you feel a rating is off (at the moment) please fill us in, and why you think it deserves +1 or -1. The goal is for these ratings to be good/useful for the here and now.
I think after I post part 3, I will go back and erase my previous posts with them, and post up a full version with revisions/proper editing. This has all been done at work, sporadically.
On GCR;
One other thing I think should be absolutely stressed in the evaluations disclaimer; the rudimentary assumption that both your deck and the opponent's are operating at good or ideal capacity. That should go without saying, but taking it a step further, I envision "midrange wars" as Naya with Loxodon Smiter or Boros Reckoner on field, B/x midrange with Desecration Demon or Reaper of the Wilds, basically they are going big and clogging the ground just like we want to, and match us creature for creature. How do we get through it, is the fundamental question, or go bigger? GCR in that broader sense, feels very useful in dealing the finishing blow when you're ready to go through, but until then, he sits there on field unable to attack or waiting for the right moment to be Bloodrushed often-times.
I wouldn't mind at all giving GCR a 2 star rating as opposed to 1, it really is quite tentative. The one hard and fast rule that is true though, GCR *is* better the faster your deck wants to be, perhaps I'm assigning a lower rating due to my more defensive midrange bias.
EDIT: added to prevent double posting-
I think I've come close to figuring out some more pros and cons that might make the 5 drop decision a bit easier, I'll go line by line, and this will help me do the 5-drop write up later.
The new Dragon stacks up very poorly against aggro, that's a definite fact, and his biggest strike is that he feels like Thundermaw Hellkite...when it's not actually what you want/you're behind/not ready to race. In all fairness, it's better to have access to the bomb in your deck if you did need it, than to blame it on not being defensive enough when you needed to stabilize.
Then again, it's important to note that Thundermaw COULD swing a lot of IMPOSSIBLE races, because tapping their fliers meant your ground guys could swing in too! They're fair comparisons, and I for one just straight up believe Stormbreath doesn't come close, the bar was set very high for him unfortunately.
For these reasons, Sylvan Caryatid is probably indisputably correct in Stormbreath lists, or having more early creatures that respect aggro more, buying you the critical turns for you to execute an air strike properly.
Also, I do agree that Hammer is redundant, and despite being a hell of a card, it's worth seeing/counting how many times the redundant interaction comes up in real games.
TLDR: I'm seeing solid build around themes for Gruul as either a true balanced G/R midrange shell, with many different elements, or a more focused ground sledgehammer with splash devotion to green at this point.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Saytr Hedonist
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Ember Swallower
4 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Domri Rade
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
3 Mizzium Mortars
Land (24)
4 Temple of Abandon
4 Stomping Ground
9 Mountain
7 Forest
2 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Burning Earth
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Flames of the Firebrand
2 Hammer of Purphoros
how has ember been?
I could see the bow being a 2 of been strong, it just allows for many options to use your mana as well as forcing unfavorable blocks.
is khalonian hydra too easy to remove so we aren't considering it anymore? Does garruk have a place in the list anywhere?
Grand Arbiter
Omnath
Skittles
I have not piloted this list, this is my teams list and I have only played against it.
My observations at this point are as already mentioned, I have had Swallower go online a couple times against myself and Naya Midrange, generally it is off Xenagos mana. We are currently discussing a full set of Xenagos but I am not sure that will fly, it seems a little overboard.
Hydra is too slow in my opinion, I might consider the Mistcutter because he can go big and quick if you have an opening. Garruk is a lot of mana I am not sure I want to spend on him, I would rather just trigger monstrous or drop Mistcutter Hydra.
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
@ Cassial, after playing roughly 8 games against B/W Midrange I found that the only way I won was going big and going fast, and capatalizing on them dealing 4-6 damage to themselves every game. I did this with fast ramps into my fatties and the hammer speeding up my clock quite a bit. But one major problem I had was the Alms Beast's and Desecration Demon totally shutting my aggression off. The one way I found to get out of that was GCR effectivly becoming a removal spell that lets me trample the last points of damage in.
Also how important is everyone finding Domri Rade to the midrange strategy? I see every list has an instant 4-of and I am curious if it is because it's what was called for pre rotation so we are all just used to it, or is he really just that good? i have been testing a version without him and running a 2-of Chandra, Pyromaster instead to some pretty great results.
(you can take this as a rant if you want but I think I snapped).
Call me bitter but I thought I would be getting a brand new fresh enviornment with Theros Standard, but nope. People want...no NEED to cling on to those "winning" strategies and play Jund/UWR/UW/ ect. sticking to Star City Premium articles like glue so they can try to win Opens and States, and Star city LOVES their midrange/control lists.
Desecration demon backed with removal is just so hard to stop. I just felt I was running into them literally every game on Cockatrice, and playing extensivly even more within my group (mainly one of them wanting to bring BG Desecration Demon to States).
I'm just fed up, so..here is my new list if you think Demon and whatever else is an issue, this is totally not tested against aggro.
No gods. No Domri. Huge monsters. (again this is me just going crazy).
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Zhur-Taa Druid
3 Polukranos
4 Voyaging Satyr
2 Arbor Colossus
1 Kalonian Hydra
2 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
4 Ember Swallower
3 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Bow of Nylea
8 Forest
5 Mountain
4 Stomping Ground
4 Temple of Abandon
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
I just want creatures, all big creatures. I'm dropping Domri and just going the bigger walker plan. Chandra and Bow to help against Desecration Demon, they are both good against him, might as well PLAY both. Xenagos is back in, I want guys to sac to demon every turn, and I want to ramp into Monsterous triggers.
I've had enough!
Down with the Demon! Down with creature kill!
4 Mountain
3 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Stomping Ground
4 Temple of Abandon
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
2 Mizzium Mortars
4 Satyr Hedonist
4 Voyaging Satyr
4 Zhur-Taa Druid
4 Ember Swallower
4 Polukranos, World Eater
2 Garruk, Caller of Beasts
This is tonight's Sam Black Midrange Monsters list, I love it, I always play the Zvi decks and this is right up that ally. What do you guys think about this build?
RRRR mono red aggro
GWGW selesnya aggro
I'd run Sylvan Caryatid over the Voyaging Satyr. Looks like he tries to ramp quickly and make either creature monstrous. I feel it may have a bit too much ramp (16 continual, 4 one shot, 4 walkers)) and not enough big hitters in case one is removed. Could be interesting, will need testing. I like the Garruk in there, but his minus really only helps polukranos, so another big green fatty would be nice.
Grand Arbiter
Omnath
Skittles
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
The only card I am unsure about is Ghor-Clan. I am also not sure about the 2 ? in my side board.
Can anyone give me any suggestions and please provide some feedback on my deck choice? THANK YOU!_!
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Ember Swallower
2 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Kalonian Hydra
2 Polukranos, World Eater
2 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
3 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Zhur-Taa Druid
4 Mizzium Mortars
7 Forest
6 Mountain
1 Mutavault
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Stomping Ground
4 Temple of Abandon
2 ?
2 Arbor Colossus
3 Burning Earth
2 Destructive Revelry
3 Mistcutter Hydra
3 Polis Crusher
4x Zhur-Taa Druid
3x Scavenging Ooze
4x Boon Satyr
4x Ghor-Clan Rampager
3x Ember Swallower
4x Kalonian Hydra
2x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
2x Hammer of Purphoros
3x Xenagos, the Reveler
4x Domri Rade
Land-
8x Forest
7x Mountain
4x Temple of Abandon
4x Stomping Ground
3x Peak Eruption
3x Stormbreath Dragon
3x Ratchet Bomb
3x Pithing Needle
3x Legion Loyalist
Ok now let me explain some of my choices.....
Ember Swallower~ Will usually hit monstrosity on turn 5 with the help of the XMAN (Xenagos, the Reveler)... A nice sized body as a 4/5 usually give me the advantage of most aggro decks... especially against the likes of the Loxodon Smiter...
Kalonian Hydra~ I know this card has been debated over and over on this forum but I love it either with the Ogre Battledriver, or in this case the Hammer of Purphoros, With haste the hydra pretty much puts your opponent on a two turn clock after you take into effect the early damage that you have caused with the Zhur-Taa Druid , and combat tricks such as Boon Satyrand Ghor-Clan Rampager, given they dont have spot removal in hand to answer the Hydra.
Hammer of Purphoros~
This card is very nice and largely being overlooked right now.... It makes all of our creatures a threat with haste. and it still provides us creatures post sweepers such as Supreme Verdict .
Stormbreath Dragon~
I have him in my sideboard mainly because Im yet to make room for him in the main....
Ruric Thar, the Unbowed~
He is the superstar in the deck.... He is powerful enough to make control decks scoop when he hits the board, he is too big for aggro to deal with, and he stops all three of the main flying threats, (Archangel of Thune, Stormbreath Dragon, and he trades with Desecration Demon.
[CARD]
Legion Loyalist[/CARD]~
This may be the most interesting choice of the 75 cards.... I have him here for one and only one matchup.... GW Tokens... yes it is a deck that I see a lot of in my local meta... Thus this may only be a good choice for me and not you....
Since you get so much value from the Ember Swallower.... Why not make the 2? in your sideboard Peak Eruption.... Against anything running mountains this could be the best follow up play after a Monstrosity Ember... Might be the back breaker....
I'm starting to see a trend and familiarity between the decks everyone is posting. So I think we're all honing in on very similar lists and card choices. That's what I like to see.
The most important part now is less "hey look at my list, or is this card good?" posts more Results ...I, as well as many other members are going to highly value detailed results and all your notes about our match-ups. Refer to the primer for a good place to start testing. Tell us what's working, what's not working. Dont tell us WHY you chose a certain build or certain card. Tell us HOW the cards and deck performed, what can be changed for certain good or bad matchups.
We don't have that much more time! Get to testing!
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
*Edited and fixed* Still just as important
On the other hand, I've failed to win a single match against RDW. Even if I manage to sweep them at T4, my life is already at 3-5, and while waiting for next turn to drop Bow and gain life, they could just Strike later on. Often at T5 a win. Few games that I have lost, against UB mill and Bw with Obzedat, Gray Merchant of Asphodel, Rescue from the Underworld and of course, D-Demon.
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
RDW is kind tough I do agree with that, but If i get a turn 3 Ember Swallower into a Arbor Colossus I kinda of just make them sit there for a few turns throwing burn spells at my face.
what do you guys recommend both mainboard and sideboard against RDW because I fully expect the deck to be 30-40% of the meta come states.
It may sound silly, but SB Nylea's Disciple has proven really good in that matchup, especially if your'e playing Nylea's Bow MD (which I think people should be playing).
All I can say is this, against G/W it during the end game the card is amazing. Plenty of situations where it is basically my elves and oozes
with your Wurms and Smiters or take lethal. I've also won games with a ghor clan bloodrushed on a creature where I dealt one point of lethal damage to something and sent the rest to the opponent's face.
Against a Red deck the gain life ability is your friend. Also useful for killing those Phoenix's and having Ooze get them out of the graveyard.
I forgot who above stated this but yea RDW is good and is a problem for this deck. Their explosive starts are just well... explosive.
on an ending note is 2 bows the right number? I've never been completely fond of having just 2 copies of a card in decks because a lot of the time you don't really draw them. But I also understand that it is legendary and you would not want to draw multiples.
I have to give this a try. Probably having 3 Nylea's Disciple in SB could help game 2 against RDW, especially if manage to drop on T3 after Elf and Boon Satyr. Bow of Nylea IMO is a must for me, 2 in MB and 1 in SB. It supports so much in play, and saved my Ruric vs D-Demon. Scooze, I'm starting to think of having it already, if reanimate deck is a thing among meta.
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG