Got some more minor testing in with the recent M-L versions and my version which is similar to ones others have posted recently. Mainly tested more against RDW and "Big Red".
Lists can be found in primer, i'll also add more user created lists in the appropriate tabs.
I think with the coming weeks, especially after SCG Open coming up with Theros becoming legal we're going to be seeing A LOT of red based aggro lists. Chandra Pyromaster, Firefist Striker ect.
That being said, the M-L version clearly shows it's flaws against that match up almost sure to lose G1, and having a "better" chance G2/G3. Though I feel the lists posted here will not run into that issue.
What I'm trying to get at is the whole explosive/consistent argument where I felt explosive with the M-L version, but more "safe" with the more mid-range big guy version. I just felt so helpless sometimes trying to race 3 or 4 of their guys with a single dragon, or my Hedonist getting shocked/magma jet...or Ember Swallower being essentially useless in that match-up.
Some general thoughts:
Xenagos: Okay, yeah I see there has been some discussion on this guy. I'm going to go ahead and say he's good when he's good, and bad when he's bad. I wouldn't say he's not a good card overall, but I also feel like his replacement (who would be Chandra 3.0) wouldn't be THAT much better, but a bit more consistent. If I were going to drop Xenagos, I may very well just replace it with Bow of Nylea before shoving Chandra into the list. Considering it would do what I wanted Chandra to do anyway, give me an out against Aggro (gain 3 life) and an out against midrange Desecration Demon (deathtouch).
Long story short, Xenagos is great against mid-range/control, bad against aggro.
Sylvan Caryatid: it's a necessary evil at this point, it's a fantastic card for what it does. Just a miserable top deck or revealing it with Domri. When I was running Purphoros it wasen't AS bad, but i'd rather another big creature than purphoros. So it's a trade off.
Boon Satyr: this guy is REALLY growing on me. I really like the flash, really love the Bestow as an instant too. Everyone in this thread saying the great interaction between Satyr + Ghor-Clan Rampager was 100% correct.
Thoughts? Oh, I really like the interaction of Bow of Nylea + Polukranos as some of you were posting. It's like, really good. Gives us another out besides Arbor Colossus to the Desecration Demon midrange lists.
Hey again folks, how's everyone's testing coming along? I haven't seen too many big matchup analysis posts, if anybody would like to share I'd be most interested, and I plan on doing some more serious gauntlet testing soon, with better note-keeping this time.
New thread addition/idea I wanted to share:
I don't want this to derail the thread, I wanted to try and come up with some other helpful measure to help us get the maximum value out of all of our cards. This "yardstick list" or something like it might be very helpful on the initial thread primer, and hopefully newcomers to the thread can agree with or be helped by some of this analysis. This is explicitly to help us cut down on posts asking about "how do you guys feel about this card" or "why do I not see your lists running this card" - generally newer posters to the thread make these, and although asking genuine questions should be encouraged, I feel there should be something in place to help folks get up to speed rather than us clogging the thread answering individual questions. I don't think this is a problem or anything, but we are approaching one of the more popular threads status, we should keep it as refined as we possibly can.
@Seton please feel free to copy/paste whatever of this if you want.
The reason for why I'm suggesting/doing this;
to make Gruul a T1 strategy, in whatever form it may take, (heavy ground, or haste/air) especially at the beginning of a new format rotation - it's not going to be a "goodstuff" deck. No offense to previous Naya "goodstuff" decks, but our card pool is obviously significantly reduced - we don't have as efficient of value cards at every point on the curve any longer.
We have to have more focused decks, the intricate synergies of how your cards interact with each other matters more, and how they're stacked against the format matters more. This kind of deckbuilding is the polar opposite of a "goodstuff" build - the "goodstuff" deck principle can simply be broken down by saying "this deck simply wants to play cards that are rarely bad in any given situation". We have to actually play some "potentially situationally bad" stuff now. It's going to be a game of figuring out how vulnerable you want to leave yourself to strategy X while hedging against strategy Z.
Evaluation method:
I wanted to try and take a "big picture" approach here, and rather than looking at the card choices and how good they are in their given decks, let's try to view them individually vs the whole format. How they stack up against the 3 main archetypes, just 3 for simplicity's sake - aggro, midrange, and control. This is not going to include every possible card, just the more popular choices, and should hopefully be a way to help us make better choices for our decks overall. I'll be assigning a - out of 3 star rating per card, per archetype matchup. - means it's a completely dead draw vs an archetype, very clear indication to board out or not play vs this archetype. 1* means it's mediocre, you look at this card and think it could be anything else right now, it's not horrible, it's just not going to have much impact in this game. 2** means its reasonably good vs an archetype, you're happy to draw this at any given time. And 3*** indicates it as a very powerful card vs a certain strategy, you'd be very happy to draw this whenever vs them. Ratings will read like this, abbreviated: A:** M:* C:***
Card Selection;
One Drops - For the most part, this archetype does not want or care about most of the 1 drops available, this is G/R midrange after all. Here's a look at a few worth covering;
Pretty simple guy, used to be an obvious staple, now he's surprisingly unclear as the "1 drop of choice" for a few subtle but surprising reasons. You can opt to play a good bit of 3 drops, but depending on your build, most Gruul decks don't have a lot of great 3's, except for Domri Rade that they (almost) all play. The other reason Elvish Mystic is somewhat diminished, is Temple of Abandon, you won't nearly as consistently have a T2 3 drop card. If we had Arbor Elf or another 1 drop mana creature, both mana creatures would actually be more consistent, and you would probably want to place more emphasis on quality 3 drops. There have been some early successful Gruul decks that eschew Elvish Mystic and choose to run Zhur-Taa Druid instead for instance, as he'll still accelerate you into a 4 drop by T3, and has slightly more impact as a card.
There hasn't been much discussion on this guy, but he is definitely a quality card. Reasons to not play him are the same as Elvish Mystic's to an extent, if you are playing him, you need to have that T1 Forest or you're shocking for it, or you're playing Temple of Abandon instead to scry. He is also the definition of a straight aggro card mostly, and highly variable depending on your decklist. For these reasons I give him a 2 stars against control, a 1 against aggro, and a 0 against midrange. I'd also strongly advise this guy in Mono-G instead of Gruul for the simple reason of T1 play consistency reasons.
Not much to discuss here, her abilities simply are irrelevant right now, and she may as well best be viewed as a 1 for 2/1. You'd only want to pick this card if playing Experiment One, and as a much more aggressive/faster strategy.
Two Drops - Here's our first real workhorse slot, although 2 drops are generally still "low impact" cards, there is a wide selection, and the choices you make here will impact the rest of your deck.
This card really deserves a 3 against aggressive strategies, and helps you facilitate the midrange plan of accelerating into more powerful cards. I give it a two against midrange too, as I consider black based control decks to be more midrange, and having hexproof on an early mana creature is highly relevant. Only one star against true control decks, as it won't help much in applying any pressure other than creating mana + it dies to mass removal.
I give this guy a one against aggro because he's significantly worse than Sylvan against aggro. It's very possible that you won't have GR mana by T2 without shocking for it, and the early turns matter a lot more vs aggro decks. I feel this is one stand-out point that helps make the decision easier here for sure; ZTD is bad vs aggro where SC is amazing vs them. 2 stars against midrange, he's fairly decent in a longer game as his pings will add up for you. 2 against control because he's at least reasonable against them, and will require some answer eventually.
Great vs aggro, a 2 for 3/3 is solid. Not good against midrange decks, as he's simply not a good topdeck later on. Against control he's reasonable, again a 2 for 3/3 is solid at applying early pressure, and later ones will still require something from them. KT gets an extra star if your build requires G devotion/uses Shrine of Nykthos, as this card just by being in play adds value. KT is also going to be better in more aggressive Gruul decks.
Right off the bat, this card is not a great T2 play against anything, you're getting nothing but a 2 for 2/2. This card is also very bad in multiples, so should never be run more than a 2 or 3-of at very most, very similar to Scavenging Ooze in that regard. For these reasons, he's a zero against aggro/should almost always be boarded out against them. Vs midrange, he's fairly useful late game, being able to sink your mana for extra damage/trample. Vs control, he's possibly our most threatening 2 drop - having a clean mana dump for extra damage without committing more to the board is valuable. I strongly recommend this card in more aggressive "big green stompy" decks, and would not advise at all in a deck running Stormbreath Dragon, this guy needs to be played with big beaters that WANT trample.
Very tough card to definitively evaluate, the matchup really determines how good or bad Scooze is. Just like Skarrg Guildmage, Scooze is not a good early play, and is bad in multiples, so this evaluation assumes you're playing him later on. He absolutely deserves *** against aggro, helping you recuperate early life loss, and growing big to stop them, for these reasons I feel he's *consistently* good vs aggro enough to be 3* vs them. Midrange is where it gets tougher, Scooze is generally really good in longer midrange games, but you have to remember it's still a 2 drop. That being said, he has way more impact than say a Kalonian Tusker in a midrange late game. Vs control I feel it's safe to give him a * or even a -. There's nothing relevant with flashback now to exile, but at least Scooze can eat your dead creatures later on to get bigger. In general Scooze is better overall in decks that play their own creature removal, (such as G/B) and is (generally) worse the more aggressive your deck is. Following that, it should also be noted that versions opting to play Satyr Hedonist + Ghor-Clan Rampager could feasibly want more copies of Ooze or argue that he's more consistent there, as you'll have more ways to kill/discard your own creatures for on demand burst value.
The stars really are a somewhat inaccurate rating for BTE, she's a very build-specific card. First off, your deck should be fairly aggressive if using her, rather than big/rampy. Secondly, some of this cards value comes in her more subtle points; her devotion to G or R mana. If you're able to use her effectively as an early beater, and have other cards that care about her devotion, she may be a solid choice. A lot of her value also depends on your other GR two drops - so you have to build explicitly with that in mind. The general consensus is probably against her as the format is slower/more midrangey, and that BTE fits in a more aggressive mono-R or R-based gruul shell with G as the splash.
This is another hard to evaluate one, and usually plays well with Burning-Tree Emissary (and has for awhile in our previous Standard). The curve must be saturated heavily with quality 2-3 drops, and that's the biggest limiting factor for the Sage, she's even more restrictive than BTE in that she wants Kalonian Tusker type creatures only. This card is fine now as a 2-3 of, but definitely not a 4-of until we see more powerful two drops printed to play alongside her, and with bigger power/toughness levels. Overall, this card is a very poor late game topdeck, and wants to be in more aggressive builds to ensure her consistency.
Yet another tough build-centric card. This card rewards you for having Monstrosity effects or being able to cheat up your curve a little quicker than usual. I give him at least a 2 against aggro, as this guy should help make sure you curve into your bigger stuff, even if you're a little land screwed or what have you, or he can simply trade with them. Not very good against midrange or control strategies, as his mana is a one shot burst, rather than consistent extra mana any given turn.
In short, he may be the perfect extra 2 drop your deck needs if it wants to make explosive plays/has mana dumps later on.
Three Drops - This has historically been a very lacking spot on the curve for Gruul in previous Standard, and still is today I believe. It's mainly due to inconsistent T1 mana acceleration, there isn't a whole lot of value in powering out a T2 3 drop, when you are more likely going to be able to power out a T3 4 drop. Especially when there's only 1x 1 CMC mana dork. That's not to say our card selection all sucks at 3, but there are serious limiting factors that make 3 drops not necessarily where you want to be right now. Special mention also goes to Flinthoof Boar from previous standard, as he could function as a 2 or a 3 drop - we don't have a modular card like that ATM.
This card could very well be a powerhouse, but it's hard to straight up evaluate this guy since he's completely dependent on your other cards in play. First off, he cares about your devotion to G, and will be significantly better in a G heavier deck. Vs aggro, this is perhaps the closest thing Gruul has had to a Loxodon Smiter - an absolute huge wall for them at a cheap cost. He comes very close to being a *** vs aggro, with the only caveat that he's not going to be as good if you accelerate him out T2.
I give him a solid ** vs midrange, as this guy is better the later you see him, and won't be a dead topdeck, paying 3 for a 6/6 or better is a very real thing with this card. Vs control he's at his worst, as you'll have to commit or have GG permanents in play to make him a threat.
This feels like the opposite side of a coin to Reverent Hunter. Think Scooze/Skarrg here. What one is good against, the other isn't, and vice versa. He is bad vs aggro since he won't profitably trade well early on, or have much stopping power, he'll generally only trade with them, even a surprise trade isn't necessarily desirable vs their cheaper creatures. Plus the games are shorter/earlier turns matter more, so I think the Bestow is a moot point vs aggro. Vs Midrange, Bestow is definitely a thing, and so is Flash. Vs control, this guy is absolutely at his best, being a Flash threat, or Bestowing a threat as well to force their answers. Last good point about Boon Satyr is he's obviously good for GG heavy builds/cards that care about G costs.
Not a very high pick right now, this guy is too conditional to be considered good in a variety of matchups. First point being that his hexproof isn't all that high impact, since we don't have great ways to enhance this creature + enhancing our own isn't really our game plan. Vs B based removal midrange decks he's at his *theoretical best*, and may deserve a sideboard slot or two, but the problem is he still can't profitably attack into creatures like Desecration Demon (which is certainly a problem from that deck) if you board him in for that particular matchup. Against true control, he still isn't good, hexproof and being able to grow (occasionally) is okay, but we could be paying GG for a vanilla 3/3 called Kalonian Tusker. Our wolf friend isn't a "bad card", but he is badly positioned in today's meta, against the decks he's supposed to be good against (U+B), he's mediocre or unspectacular.
Very tough to make this guy work, another very build-centric card. If playing this guy, you want no other 1/1's in your deck besides Experiment One, and should be running a very conscious evolve curve. Obvious synergy piece, standalone not a good card vs anything. He's probably better in general than Witchstalker, as if you get at least one evolve trigger and give some creatures extra +1/1 counters, that's some return on your investment. Has the potential to be more powerful in a deck with good creatures with +1/1 counters, and could see more play if more are printed.
This isn't a very popular choice in midrange builds, but I feel it's worth mentioning for aggressive midrange decks as he is a unique source of inevitability for them. On the other side of the coin, the fastest aggro decks don't want this guy either, typically, because they don't have the mana for it, so it really does fall into aggro-midrange territory. The biggest strike(s) against this guy is that he doesn't have good toughness, and the 3 slot just isn't that desirable of a point on the curve as mentioned previously. He may not be worth sideboard slots, but he could be a very good card vs control decks, or as a way to help your creatures trade up in combat with cards like Desecration Demon + get him back later.
I'd be happy to do a thorough part 2 write-up continuation for 4 drops and above if you guys like the rating system.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Hey again folks, how's everyone's testing coming along? I haven't seen too many big matchup analysis posts, if anybody would like to share I'd be most interested, and I plan on doing some more serious gauntlet testing soon, with better note-keeping this time.
New thread addition/idea I wanted to share:
I don't want this to derail the thread, I wanted to try and come up with some other helpful measure to help us get the maximum value out of all of our cards. This "yardstick list" or something like it might be very helpful on the initial thread primer, and hopefully newcomers to the thread can agree with or be helped by some of this analysis. This is explicitly to help us cut down on posts asking about "how do you guys feel about this card" or "why do I not see your lists running this card" - generally newer posters to the thread make these, and although asking genuine questions should be encouraged, I feel there should be something in place to help folks get up to speed rather than us clogging the thread answering individual questions. I don't think this is a problem or anything, but we are approaching one of the more popular threads status, we should keep it as refined as we possibly can.
@Seton please feel free to copy/paste whatever of this if you want.
The reason for why I'm suggesting/doing this;
to make Gruul a T1 strategy, in whatever form it may take, (heavy ground, or haste/air) especially at the beginning of a new format rotation - it's not going to be a "goodstuff" deck. No offense to previous Naya "goodstuff" decks, but our card pool is obviously significantly reduced - we don't have as efficient of value cards at every point on the curve any longer.
We have to have more focused decks, the intricate synergies of how your cards interact with each other matters more, and how they're stacked against the format matters more. This kind of deckbuilding is the polar opposite of a "goodstuff" build - the "goodstuff" deck principle can simply be broken down by saying "this deck simply wants to play cards that are rarely bad in any given situation". We have to actually play some "potentially situationally bad" stuff now. It's going to be a game of figuring out how vulnerable you want to leave yourself to strategy X while hedging against strategy Z.
Evaluation method:
I wanted to try and take a "big picture" approach here, and rather than looking at the card choices and how good they are in their given decks, let's try to view them individually vs the whole format. How they stack up against the 3 main archetypes, just 3 for simplicity's sake - aggro, midrange, and control. This is not going to include every possible card, just the more popular choices, and should hopefully be a way to help us make better choices for our decks overall. I'll be assigning a - out of 3 star rating per card, per archetype matchup. - means it's a completely dead draw vs an archetype, very clear indication to board out or not play vs this archetype. 1* means it's mediocre, you look at this card and think it could be anything else right now, it's not horrible, it's just not going to have much impact in this game. 2** means its reasonably good vs an archetype, you're happy to draw this at any given time. And 3*** indicates it as a very powerful card vs a certain strategy, you'd be very happy to draw this whenever vs them. Ratings will read like this, abbreviated: A:** M:* C:***
Card Selection;
One Drops - For the most part, this archetype does not want or care about most of the 1 drops available, this is G/R midrange after all. Here's a look at a few worth covering;
Pretty simple guy, used to be an obvious staple, now he's surprisingly unclear as the "1 drop of choice" for a few subtle but surprising reasons. You can opt to play a good bit of 3 drops, but depending on your build, most Gruul decks don't have a lot of great 3's, except for Domri Rade that they (almost) all play. The other reason Elvish Mystic is somewhat diminished, is Temple of Abandon, you won't nearly as consistently have a T2 3 drop card. If we had Arbor Elf or another 1 drop mana creature, both mana creatures would actually be more consistent, and you would probably want to place more emphasis on quality 3 drops. There have been some early successful Gruul decks that eschew Elvish Mystic and choose to run Zhur-Taa Druid instead for instance, as he'll still accelerate you into a 4 drop by T3, and has slightly more impact as a card.
There hasn't been much discussion on this guy, but he is definitely a quality card. Reasons to not play him are the same as Elvish Mystic's to an extent, if you are playing him, you need to have that T1 Forest or you're shocking for it, or you're playing Temple of Abandon instead to scry. He is also the definition of a straight aggro card mostly, and highly variable depending on your decklist. For these reasons I give him a 2 stars against control, a 1 against aggro, and a 0 against midrange. I'd also strongly advise this guy in Mono-G instead of Gruul for the simple reason of T1 play consistency reasons.
Not much to discuss here, her abilities simply are irrelevant right now, and she may as well best be viewed as a 1 for 2/1. You'd only want to pick this card if playing Experiment One, and as a much more aggressive/faster strategy.
Two Drops - Here's our first real workhorse slot, although 2 drops are generally still "low impact" cards, there is a wide selection, and the choices you make here will impact the rest of your deck.
This card really deserves a 3 against aggressive strategies, and helps you facilitate the midrange plan of accelerating into more powerful cards. I give it a two against midrange too, as I consider black based control decks to be more midrange, and having hexproof on an early mana creature is highly relevant. Only one star against true control decks, as it won't help much in applying any pressure other than creating mana + it dies to mass removal.
I give this guy a one against aggro because he's significantly worse than Sylvan against aggro. It's very possible that you won't have GR mana by T2 without shocking for it, and the early turns matter a lot more vs aggro decks. I feel this is one stand-out point that helps make the decision easier here for sure; ZTD is bad vs aggro where SC is amazing vs them. 2 stars against midrange, he's fairly decent in a longer game as his pings will add up for you. 2 against control because he's at least reasonable against them, and will require some answer eventually.
Great vs aggro, a 2 for 3/3 is solid. Not good against midrange decks, as he's simply not a good topdeck later on. Against control he's reasonable, again a 2 for 3/3 is solid at applying early pressure, and later ones will still require something from them. KT gets an extra star if your build requires G devotion/uses Shrine of Nykthos, as this card just by being in play adds value. KT is also going to be better in more aggressive Gruul decks.
Right off the bat, this card is not a great T2 play against anything, you're getting nothing but a 2 for 2/2. This card is also very bad in multiples, so should never be run more than a 2 or 3-of at very most, very similar to Scavenging Ooze in that regard. For these reasons, he's a zero against aggro/should almost always be boarded out against them. Vs midrange, he's fairly useful late game, being able to sink your mana for extra damage/trample. Vs control, he's possibly our most threatening 2 drop - having a clean mana dump for extra damage without committing more to the board is valuable. I strongly recommend this card in more aggressive "big green stompy" decks, and would not advise at all in a deck running Stormbreath Dragon, this guy needs to be played with big beaters that WANT trample.
Very tough card to definitively evaluate, the matchup really determines how good or bad Scooze is. Just like Skarrg Guildmage, Scooze is not a good early play, and is bad in multiples, so this evaluation assumes you're playing him later on. He absolutely deserves *** against aggro, helping you recuperate early life loss, and growing big to stop them, for these reasons I feel he's *consistently* good vs aggro enough to be 3* vs them. Midrange is where it gets tougher, Scooze is generally really good in longer midrange games, but you have to remember it's still a 2 drop. That being said, he has way more impact than say a Kalonian Tusker in a midrange late game. Vs control I feel it's safe to give him a * or even a -. There's nothing relevant with flashback now to exile, but at least Scooze can eat your dead creatures later on to get bigger. In general Scooze is better overall in decks that play their own creature removal, (such as G/B) and is (generally) worse the more aggressive your deck is. Following that, it should also be noted that versions opting to play Satyr Hedonist + Ghor-Clan Rampager could feasibly want more copies of Ooze or argue that he's more consistent there, as you'll have more ways to kill/discard your own creatures for on demand burst value.
The stars really are a somewhat inaccurate rating for BTE, she's a very build-specific card. First off, your deck should be fairly aggressive if using her, rather than big/rampy. Secondly, some of this cards value comes in her more subtle points; her devotion to G or R mana. If you're able to use her effectively as an early beater, and have other cards that care about her devotion, she may be a solid choice. A lot of her value also depends on your other GR two drops - so you have to build explicitly with that in mind. The general consensus is probably against her as the format is slower/more midrangey, and that BTE fits in a more aggressive mono-R or R-based gruul shell with G as the splash.
This is another hard to evaluate one, and usually plays well with Burning-Tree Emissary (and has for awhile in our previous Standard). The curve must be saturated heavily with quality 2-3 drops, and that's the biggest limiting factor for the Sage, she's even more restrictive than BTE in that she wants Kalonian Tusker type creatures only. This card is fine now as a 2-3 of, but definitely not a 4-of until we see more powerful two drops printed to play alongside her, and with bigger power/toughness levels. Overall, this card is a very poor late game topdeck, and wants to be in more aggressive builds to ensure her consistency.
Yet another tough build-centric card. This card rewards you for having Monstrosity effects or being able to cheat up your curve a little quicker than usual. I give him at least a 2 against aggro, as this guy should help make sure you curve into your bigger stuff, even if you're a little land screwed or what have you, or he can simply trade with them. Not very good against midrange or control strategies, as his mana is a one shot burst, rather than consistent extra mana any given turn.
In short, he may be the perfect extra 2 drop your deck needs if it wants to make explosive plays/has mana dumps later on.
Three Drops - This has historically been a very lacking spot on the curve for Gruul in previous Standard, and still is today I believe. It's mainly due to inconsistent T1 mana acceleration, there isn't a whole lot of value in powering out a T2 3 drop, when you are more likely going to be able to power out a T3 4 drop. Especially when there's only 1x 1 CMC mana dork. That's not to say our card selection all sucks at 3, but there are serious limiting factors that make 3 drops not necessarily where you want to be right now. Special mention also goes to Flinthoof Boar from previous standard, as he could function as a 2 or a 3 drop - we don't have a modular card like that ATM.
This card could very well be a powerhouse, but it's hard to straight up evaluate this guy since he's completely dependent on your other cards in play. First off, he cares about your devotion to G, and will be significantly better in a G heavier deck. Vs aggro, this is perhaps the closest thing Gruul has had to a Loxodon Smiter - an absolute huge wall for them at a cheap cost. He comes very close to being a *** vs aggro, with the only caveat that he's not going to be as good if you accelerate him out T2.
I give him a solid ** vs midrange, as this guy is better the later you see him, and won't be a dead topdeck, paying 3 for a 6/6 or better is a very real thing with this card. Vs control he's at his worst, as you'll have to commit or have GG permanents in play to make him a threat.
This feels like the opposite side of a coin to Reverent Hunter. Think Scooze/Skarrg here. What one is good against, the other isn't, and vice versa. He is bad vs aggro since he won't profitably trade well early on, or have much stopping power, he'll generally only trade with them, even a surprise trade isn't necessarily desirable vs their cheaper creatures. Plus the games are shorter/earlier turns matter more, so I think the Bestow is a moot point vs aggro. Vs Midrange, Bestow is definitely a thing, and so is Flash. Vs control, this guy is absolutely at his best, being a Flash threat, or Bestowing a threat as well to force their answers. Last good point about Boon Satyr is he's obviously good for GG heavy builds/cards that care about G costs.
Not a very high pick right now, this guy is too conditional to be considered good in a variety of matchups. First point being that his hexproof isn't all that high impact, since we don't have great ways to enhance this creature + enhancing our own isn't really our game plan. Vs B based removal midrange decks he's at his *theoretical best*, and may deserve a sideboard slot or two, but the problem is he still can't profitably attack into creatures like Desecration Demon (which is certainly a problem from that deck) if you board him in for that particular matchup. Against true control, he still isn't good, hexproof and being able to grow (occasionally) is okay, but we could be paying GG for a vanilla 3/3 called Kalonian Tusker. Our wolf friend isn't a "bad card", but he is badly positioned in today's meta, against the decks he's supposed to be good against (U+B), he's mediocre or unspectacular.
Very tough to make this guy work, another very build-centric card. If playing this guy, you want no other 1/1's in your deck besides Experiment One, and should be running a very conscious evolve curve. Obvious synergy piece, standalone not a good card vs anything. He's probably better in general than Witchstalker, as if you get at least one evolve trigger and give some creatures extra +1/1 counters, that's some return on your investment. Has the potential to be more powerful in a deck with good creatures with +1/1 counters, and could see more play if more are printed.
This isn't a very popular choice in midrange builds, but I feel it's worth mentioning for aggressive midrange decks as he is a unique source of inevitability for them. On the other side of the coin, the fastest aggro decks don't want this guy either, typically, because they don't have the mana for it, so it really does fall into aggro-midrange territory. The biggest strike(s) against this guy is that he doesn't have good toughness, and the 3 slot just isn't that desirable of a point on the curve as mentioned previously. He may not be worth sideboard slots, but he could be a very good card vs control decks, or as a way to help your creatures trade up in combat with cards like Desecration Demon + get him back later.
I'd be happy to do a thorough part 2 write-up continuation for 4 drops and above if you guys like the rating system.
I'm liking the rating system. Continue if you have time!
I'll update the Primer today, though I dont think your post derailed this thread. More of a PSA on "let's stay focused on the results rather than card selection."
I totally understand, I always try to add as much testing results as I can (via posts or Primer). I don't see as much actual notes or thoughts from specific match-ups. I'd rather see why a card did or did not work, than why you picked it in the first place (general statement).
People get busy, but if we're here to make this competitive and want to win tournaments, we can't have lists thrown around without proper testing, or card choices for that matter.
Thanks to everyone so far though, I don't think it's been a huge problem in this thread, but rather to minimize it as much as we can.
@Seton - I was about to comment on your post where you mentioned
If I were going to drop Xenagos, I may very well just replace it with Bow of Nylea before shoving Chandra into the list. Considering it would do what I wanted Chandra to do anyway, give me an out against Aggro (gain 3 life) and an out against midrange Desecration Demon (deathtouch).
Then you made this gem just now:
I'd rather see why a card did or did not work, than why you picked it in the first place (general statement).
I'd love to see more posts like the mention about Chandra, I personally feel that's not only the most helpful kind of post, but it's very easy to prove/back up through testing (and these kind of posts simultaneously speak to the posters experience). This is another huge piece of "tech" that plays hand in hand with *general* card evaluation skill, but is more tied into *specific* skill; meta-evaluating, since you correctly found another card that "did the same job, or can do the same job and other things".
That and I had to say thanks for that post, because I've really been unimpressed with Chandra so far - understandably so, because my builds care about G devotion. You really got me to look at the Bow from another angle, and I think I may have been boarding it out against Desecration Demon decks, or wrongly thinking "I need to put Chandra on my board because I've read about how good she is vs D Demon".
Just with that post you made, I think you've saved me a ton of time in my own testing - I think I can safely not worry about testing her in my build at the moment.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
I may feel a bit unclear on how Bow of Nylea is a win against D-Demon ? Is it because our attackers have deathtouch, D-Demon is having second thoughts on blocking ?
I may feel a bit unclear on how Bow of Nylea is a win against D-Demon ? Is it because our attackers have deathtouch, D-Demon is having second thoughts on blocking ?
That and Bow of Nylea + Polukranos.
Declare attacks.
Monsterous Polukranos pinging demon.
Dead Demon.
@Moo - Like the list, I think I'm in agreement with you and Joe, Xenagos really has build around potential, but right now I'm starting to feel he's just not consistent enough. ...
Anyway, the one thing I most wanted to comment on, I immediately liked your list and have been doing a similar version - Nylea is an absolute boss and one of the few things that has kept me in games vs B based removal heavy control. Our worst matchup yet, IMO, I'm far more concerned about getting 1-for-1'd all day by black decks than I am worried about U/W, but that's me.
The one "problem" or nitpick I guess I want to point out to you, you'll see this the more you playtest it will be a thing, especially in low resource/drawn out long games - Nylea will have serious Devotion issues if you're using Ember Swallower as a core creature in your deck.
Full disclosure: You just spent more time responding to my card choices than I have been able to spend testing them.
I've penciled in 2 Nylea, God of the Hunt as a card that at worst as an indestructible enchantment that gives my team keyword trample, can pump as a mana sink, and can be drawn off the +1 ability of Domri Rade - all this is before I happen to get devotion to green turned on to either 'win-more' or break a board stall in some sort of near mirror. Think of how often Ghor-Clan Rampager is simply Colossal Might that you can draw off Domri.
Anything I've said or done could easily be incorrect at this point as I'm basing it on opinions/thoughts/theories/guesses from having played the GR on and off for a very long time ... {an aside on creature power creep, I am probably biased by starting to play MtG at a time when Erhnam Djinn was one of the best creatures you could play. ... Poor Herman, how the mighty have fallen (no one's playing his reprinted buddies either Serra Angel, Sengir Vampire, Shivan Dragon)}
Most importantly I continue to enjoy reading your and other peoples thoughts on certain cards/strategies/matchups - good to know I'll have a head start when the busy-ness of starting a new school year calms down (it doesn't really though). I also really like what you're trying to do with the rating system to try and consider cards against non-specific aggro/midrange/control matchups and would be interested to see your thoughts on 4+ drops if you have time
I have been goldfishing at speeds of turns 4 or 5. Slower turns have involved resolving planeswalkers or casting Warrior's Lesson gaining considerable card draw. In goldfishing I have liked Magma Jet, but if the meta is full of 3 toughness creatures, then Lightning Strike may be called for. Hope this gives an idea or two, but the concept is pretty simple.
Creatures
Experiment One - This card likes when you play it early and then play multiple larger powered creatures after it. Seems like a plan this deck would work well with.
Rakdos Cackler - This 2/2 that can’t block simply fills the role of an aggressive cheap creature.
Firedrinker Satyr - Don’t think Goblin Guide, think of another heavily played classic red creature from old tournament lists: Jackal Pup. This is a skill test card, which looks awful, but is in-fact incredibly aggressive. Keep in mind you are the fast deck, life matters more to the opponent than it does to you.
Burning-Tree Emissary - This card allows use to play a 2/2 for essentially free as long as we can utilize the mana generated from it that turn. This card fills a similar role as Frogmite did for Affinity back in the days of Mirrodin.
Scavenging Ooze - Most decks will be creature decks, and if not they will likely run sweepers which not withstanding the new (under-rated) card Anger of the Gods one or both graveyards will have targets to grow the Ooze.
Ghor-Clan Rampager - At 4/4 and Trample this uncommon is already a good creature, however the under-costed Bloodrush sets this card as a staple. It does not trigger Heroic though, if you were wondering.
Planeswalkers
Domri Rade - Card Advantage and creature removal. This is our bounce back, along with not overextending, to get back in the drivers seat post Supreme Verdict.
Xenagos, the Reveler - This card allows the deck additional reach with the token producing aspect. His +1 allows you not to lose tempo if you cast him on curve.
Enchantments
Gruul War Chant - This grants your creatures mass evasion, and pump. This is best in a Mid Range meta, I believe. In an aggro meta I'd likely choose the red god, and in control additional Xenagos, the Reveler.
Instants
Warrior’s Lesson - One of the fastest standard aggro decks of all time was Affinity from Mirrodin block. This deck was fueled by the obnoxiously fast affinity mechanic, but also because it had a draw engine in Thoughtcast which in the deck drew 2 cards for a single mana. This card, though not as broken, plays a similar role in the deck.
Magma Jet - I view this card as Preordain, except you always draw and cast Shock without running Shock in your deck. The scry also enables Domri to hit more often with his +1. Scry also enables you to manipulate your land base and run additional lands to prevent “mana screw” while bottoming lands to draw gas, or less lands and bottom 1 drops while you dig for the 3rd or fourth land to resolve a Planeswalker or other finisher.
I get that you're trying to super ramp into an X-kill spell, but I think that may be more detrimental vs. control type decks than running it as aggro/midrange. I think the Karametra's Acolyte and Gyre Sage could easily be dropped in favor of something else; If you're really set on wanting to ramp into a spell-kill instead of fatties like Worldspine Wurm, Savageborn Hydra, etc. then I would say go 4-of Clan Defiance and drop something else for some amount (maybe 2-of) Volcanic Geyser. I get the alt-win con of using ramp to fuel the hammer, but (and I am generally the last person to cry "dies to removal") I can see someone playing out a Ratchet Bomb before you ramp up to your tokens and just wait for you to do it. Still though, glad to see someone else liking Clan Defiance
Edit: On quick contemplation, I'd go 3/3 on Clan Defiance and Volcanic Geyser. Defiance gives you more utility vs. a littered board, but at slower speed. Geyser I see as a "gotcha" eot when they tap out for their sphinx rev or what have you since it's instant speed.
Maybe to replace Rakdos Cackler with Legion Loyalist for better combat.
Until proven otherwise, I wouldn't run any green supporting aggro list without Warriors' Lesson. It's the most mana-efficent way to refill your hand. Was that list posted by Craig before that card was spoiled by chance?
I get that you're trying to super ramp into an X-kill spell, but I think that may be more detrimental vs. control type decks than running it as aggro/midrange. I think the Karametra's Acolyte and Gyre Sage could easily be dropped in favor of something else; If you're really set on wanting to ramp into a spell-kill instead of fatties like Worldspine Wurm, Savageborn Hydra, etc. then I would say go 4-of Clan Defiance and drop something else for some amount (maybe 2-of) Volcanic Geyser. I get the alt-win con of using ramp to fuel the hammer, but (and I am generally the last person to cry "dies to removal") I can see someone playing out a Ratchet Bomb before you ramp up to your tokens and just wait for you to do it. Still though, glad to see someone else liking Clan Defiance
Edit: On quick contemplation, I'd go 3/3 on Clan Defiance and Volcanic Geyser. Defiance gives you more utility vs. a littered board, but at slower speed. Geyser I see as a "gotcha" eot when they tap out for their sphinx rev or what have you since it's instant speed.
I think the list has a ton of fatties as it is, I don't see a need for something like Worldspine Wurm. However, Clan Defiance and Nylea, God of the Hunt are there to provide mana sinks, because your main plan would be to just overwhelm your opponent with huge monsters, but its never a bad idea to have a plan B (direct damage win-con).
The thing about Hammer, I'm mostly trying to exploit the Fervor part, because in conjunction with Karametra's Acolyte it can get pretty crazy and comboish (which is the only thing that makes me want to play a deck so full of creatures, I'm not an aggro guy). Being able to pump out tokens and give your lands better use in the late game is a good plus against control decks though.
What would you change anyway, without taking the deck into a different route?
Until proven otherwise, I wouldn't run any green supporting aggro list without Warriors' Lesson. It's the most mana-efficent way to refill your hand. Was that list posted by Craig before that card was spoiled by chance?
Nope, the list after Theros fully spoiled. Agreed that Warriors' Lesson is a great card for refilling your hand, maybe a 3-of ? You can always tweak a bit. I think Domri Rade, Xenagos, and Gruul War Chant can go to SB.
I think Kalonian Hydra should be considered like a better replacement for Arbor Colossus. Having a Hydra with a Hammer on the board looks pretty cool, and there are a lot of creatures that could benefit from the hydra's ability.
To be honest I've tried to build around Kalonian Hydra and Hammer, but it just not solid enough.
I think Kalonian Hydra should be considered like a better replacement for Arbor Colossus. Having a Hydra with a Hammer on the board looks pretty cool, and there are a lot of creatures that could benefit from the hydra's ability.
This is something that I am currently debating in my own midrange list. I run 2x Hammer of Purphoros which makes choosing my 5 drop a little harder.
As of now I need to decide which 5-drop I want to run. My choices are..
1)Stormbreath Dragon: Most aggressive option with build in protection. The dragon is definitely the best choice against control but can be poor against aggro lists. Also a little redundant with hammer on the field.
3)Kalonian Hydra: This card combo's very well with the hammer and a somewhat in between card compared to the other two cards since it can be a decent roadblock while still being devastating on the offense.
I have tested Hydra so far and have to say he is pretty high in the running since he just does so much work by himself, but it really all comes down to what I can expect to see come states, because if the meta is all aggro or Stormbreath Dragon.dec I believe the Colossus will be the best choice.
To me Kalonian Hydra is a great card, but he only great at offense, meaning haste. The minute it comes down with Hammer or Ogre Battledriver, he is awesome ! I mean at normal drop, he attracts too much attention and can't seem to use his ability well. For 5-drop I think Stormbreath Dragon or Arbor Colossus is better.
EDIT : Had my playtest against Mono Red Blitz, Esper Superfriends and American Control thanks to Cassial's list.
Mono Red Blitz : Lost 0-2 with the deck and both on T5. I think it is a bad match up, even after SB I added in extra Bow and 3 Electrickery.
Esper Superfriends and American Control : Win against both decks 2-1 thanks to early drop of Boon Satyr and Ghor Clan Rampager. Game 2 lost because of every drop just got either sphered, bounced or supremed. Game 3 manage to hit early and drop Ruric Thar.
I've tested Kalonian Hydra in my mono-green build (in my sig), and cut it in favor of Colossus and other cards. It has the ability to be a house, but without haste, it almost never has a chance to grow. With Hammer of Purphoros, it could be worthwhile, but overall, I'm not a big fan of Hammer in a gruul midrange deck except as a possible SB card game 2.
Typically, the only way I've had Kalonian Hydra be successful is to cast it EOT on my opponent's turn with Savage Summoning to be able to attack on my next turn and get in for 8 damage. Comparatively, I could have for 5 mana dropped an Arbor Colossus the turn before and had a 6/6 blocker with reach, and then spend the same 6 mana Hydra took EOT and make Colossus monstrous to a 9/9 and able to attack.
@LeoninKha: Nylea works ok-ish as a mana sink, the higher the cost though, the less effective the sink. 3G to activate means if you have 5-7 free mana open, you only get it once and have 1-3 mana left over. With her granting trample, it's not a bad option though, and as long as you have a ghor-clan waiting in the wings it should be pretty devastating. I might suggest trying Savageborn Hydra as another potential mana-sink target as well, nothing more than as a 2-of and I think you might like it. I really would suggest going 3-of each Clan Defiance and Volcanic Geyser, or even Geyser just as a 2-of. Neither are exactly Bonfire, but, I just like Geyser's instant speed to hit them at an EOT moment. It's a bit concerning having Ruric Thar, the Unbowed in play as it's going to hit you pretty hard too, but if it's a killing blow you're dealing, then who cares.
Until proven otherwise, I wouldn't run any green supporting aggro list without Warriors' Lesson. It's the most mana-efficent way to refill your hand. Was that list posted by Craig before that card was spoiled by chance?
I run something similar to Wescoe's list but it is technically Jund since I splash Black to get my best 4-drop: Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch. Her synergy with the Unleash creatures is amazing, Haste + First Strike is pretty incredible, and she can't be hit with Doom Blade or targeted by Lifebane Zombie, making her the best RGB aggro 4 drop in the game. Reaper of the Wilds is the only other thing I am tempted by thanks to the 1G Hexproof until end of turn and the scry.
Plus B splash gives me access to two outstanding utility cards, Illness in the Ranks (makes Elspeth useless, though I am considering a 3-of Legion Loyalist instead) and Golgari Charm, which dominated control.
I'm not running Dreg Mangler right now because of two things:
1) mana is not good enough. Exava usually has B by the time I am ready to drop her, but turn 3 and 4 is too greedy.
2) Hammer of Purphoros may take a turn to reveal value, but having everything come in with haste and being able to make 3/3 from flooding is just absurdly good. and it grows Experiment One.
This variation of the deck wants to just run opponents over. Nothing fancy, just a ton of damage using haste, trample, and burn. I have frequently done 14 damage in one turn off of one creature, thanks to 3/x, swing, bloodrush, Main Phase 2, Blood. No one is out of my range turn 4.
If Boon Satyr was not so good, I admit I would be tempted to add a different 3-drop creature... Cryptborn Horror. It is best against mid-range decks, but not so good against Control. A creature that relies on you have a board and doing damage is too situational. I know. I've tried.
Mindsparker is also a potential value card. Slow, but against control it is extra damage. On the other hand, Splatter Thug was a better attacker and had synergy with Exava, and still isn't good.
Hey again folks, thank you all for the support on the rating system, I appreciate it and will begin part 2 now for 4 drops and up. Bear with me, this will be as non-biased as I can try and make it, and still honest and all that. But yeah, a very simple "quick" way to rate all of these choices is making things a lot easier for myself and friends, in saving a lot of hard playtest time.
Card Selection, Part 2:
Four Drops - This is perhaps the most perplexing area of current Gruul deckbuilding. First off, 4 is really where you want to be - as mentioned before, 3 drops are inconsistent and not really part of our "usual" curve. In other words, it's *not* normal for this deck in any of it's various forms to go T2 Domri Rade, or T2 <insert 3 drop>, and T2 Domri is indicative of a lot of lucky circumstances going right for you, at least without shocking. A more normal game, the "good" case scenario is to land a 4 drop by T3 generally, with the help of a mana-accelerant either T1 or T2. Anyway, how we determine what 4 drops to actually utilize for our deck is determined by the earlier pieces we chose, and determines our ideal top end as well to an extent. Given how many 4 drops there are, this evaluation will continue with the popular ones, or the fringe/used to be popular at least, but not the draft jank.
Let's start with our current Gruul all-star, and the ratings. These ratings may seem a bit unfair, but this is based on matchups, as well as how GCR actually plays as a creature in real matches. Against aggro, safe to say, he's not bad/usually good. He's not Thragtusk against them, but he's reasonable, and if not playing defense, he's your go-to guy for Bloodrushing (through things such as Boros Reckoner) to quickly end games once you've stabilized. I also firmly believe that if you're midrange and playing a set of GCR, more often than not, you will need to actually cast GCR, it's the Gruul Blitz decks that view this card as a GR +4/4 + trample pump spell, and not as an actual 4 drop. Moving into midrange, I rank GCR as a * mainly due to Desecration Demon,Advent of the Wurm, as well as Loxodon Smiter, all being superior P/T creatures at the same spot or less on curve. Without getting sidetracked on a meta discussion, it's safe to say in a midrange battle, if you are running a full set of Rampagers in a "big midrange arms race" type creature stalemate, your GCR's are going to need *some* support to get the job done, or bigger creatures to bloodrush onto. Again, this rating is a stand-alone card evaluation, not taking into account synergies, which is relevant in low-resource/longer/midrange games. Vs control, GCR is again not that spectacular. He's a reasonable threat, but offers no resilience or longer game advantage, but he's an excellent finishing blow vs a control player who stumbles somehow. In conclusion, the faster your deck is capable of being, the more you are towards aggro on the "aggro-midrange" spectrum, Rampager becomes more high impact, conversely the more midrange you are, the less high impact/threatening this card becomes - it is primarily built for a fast deck needing to punch through creature stalls.
This example is being posted purely for illustrative purposes only, in contrast to Ghor-Clan Rampager. It's easy to see why no Gruul *Midrange* decks actually choose to play the Maaka. Maaka is a straight up inferior card in comparison to Rampager, but it is played heavily in Mono-Red, which illustrates the point that Bloodrush creatures favor small, cheap creature, aggro decks. Keep this in mind if you're having doubts whether your deck *needs* Rampager or not, because of the "it's the best Gruul card" sentiment. The faster you are trying to be, the more Bloodrush you'll want and ultimately need.
Deadbridge Goliath is a slightly more defensive, "more-midrange" version of the GCR. He could *almost* be a 3 star vs aggro, for the fact that he profitably blocks Loxodon Smiter, or trades with Advent of the Wurm but 3 stars are reserved for cards that break the game wide open vs a single archetype/or are immensely well positioned meta-wise. 5 Toughness is relevant in dodging common R removal - Mizzium Mortars + Warleader's Helix, and the late game Scavenge option seems like a natural fit for a more midrange/rampy deck. If playing DG, the one thing you will really want to look out for is more sources of granting Trample to your creatures, especially for midrange battles, where he scores rather low. DG is fairly fine in most midrange matchups, but it isn't going to *pull you ahead* unless scavenged later on, generally speaking he'll just trade with other stuff, which is fair because this is a 4 drop after all. In control matchups, DG does offer some very desired longevity for grind out long games, provided you have the mana for it.
I'm fairly confident in assigning a zero vs aggro here, this card will not reliably profitably block/trade well the turn he comes down against a faster deck, and the haste he grants is completely irrelevant if you are behind/need to stabilize. Literally, this card, in a vacuum, is the last thing you want to see if you're playing from behind. It's explosive capabilities are definitely there, living the dream with a hasted Kalonian Hydra, against opponents who don't actually interact with you. The problem is, the 3/3 Ogre himself is rarely in a position to attack in other midrange creature wars, (through Loxodon Smiter and other previously mentioned optimal 3-4 drops) so from a standalone card evaluation, he really is weak on his own. Vs control, he's perfectly fine, although he is more vulnerable to removal than Rampager/Goliath, the haste potential if left unanswered could be able to heavily punish control decks. Strongly recommended to stay away from this guy, as he is horribly ill-positioned in today's meta, and where Gruul midrange decks need to be stabilizing with their 4 drop.
Here we are with a very synergistic piece that can't completely be evaluated on it's own merits alone. On her own, she's completely unimpressive against anything and everything. Vs aggro, I'd almost assign a zero, but at least unlike the Ogre above, you may be able to hedge *some* value in this card's Devotion, and at least she can attack more safely (with other creatures' help). Vs midrange, she can be at her theoretical best, but she's largely unproven in this format. Like the other 4 drop options, she is worse at attacking into a heavy ground stall, and you obviously need other attackers with her to ensure her survival/most impact. Vs control, she is at her worst, and both encourages over-committing and requires it to be effective at all, with no resilient creature support. If utilizing this card, the primary goal should be using her as a Devotion enabler in addition to attacking with a swarm strategy, but she is no Hero of Bladehold at the end of the day (army in a can). There is too much positioning and too many what if's to make this card good, unless there is a clear Gruul Devotion deck later on that has the right supporting cast for her.
Finally, a good card! This fiery dog is intentionally printed as a 4/5 to dodge a LOT of removal in the format right now, and does so exceptionally. That being said, Ember is a solid creature no matter how or where you slice it, and the right way to view him is perhaps a more offensive Deadbridge Goliath. At first he's a solid body, no strikes against him on that. An extra point is assigned as many posters have noted, he dodges Lifebane Zombie as opposed to green creatures, but don't let that cause you to arbitrarily downvote playing green creatures. Vs aggro, you likely won't be blowing up their lands, but you need him as a blocker, and he's a fine one at that. Vs midrange, the land destruction may or may not be relevant, if you build your deck rampy, the option may come up. If it comes up late, it's probably irrelevant, but with the card being solid already on it's own, it's fine. Vs control, the land destruction can equal free wins if ramped into early, but do not count on it. That being said, cards with once in awhile free win mode activated lines of play absolutely should be considered pedigree over other choices. My one strike against the Firehound is that he does not help a deck caring about being Devoted to green, that may be completely irrelevant to a lot of Gruul decks, but there are ways to build your deck without having to go "all in devotion" deck.
Pretty simple evaluation for a change, this is an obvious sideboard card vs aggro decks, with the caveat being that you should probably only run this if your deck is slanted towards a "devoted green splash". It's not Thragtusk, but it has close to the same stopping power against aggro at the moment. It's also interesting to note that if you can delay playing this card as long as possible, it becomes that much more backbreaking against conventional aggro decks to race the extra life-gain. Nothing to see here vs most midrange and/or control decks. You could opt to play this as a 1-2 of in your main if really wanting to hedge against aggro, and it isn't outright terrible vs midrange if racing. This may also be a solid "bridge" card if the top end of your deck requires more time and set up, and Disciple may be very well be a desired 4-of in hard rampy strategies, should they be able to execute proper inevitability.
This has the same rating as Ember Swallower, but for entirely different reasons which need to be stressed. If Rampager gets a 2 against aggro, meaning fair to good, Polis Crusher should as well. Not great, but fair. Against most midrange matchups, I believe Polis Crusher to be the more reliable card. Ember Swallower can lead to a quick win if you ramp into it's Monstrosity quickly enough - denying the opponent's mana and all that. Polis Crusher is a more reliable/straightforward axis of attack, in that if the game goes late, his Monstrosity is reasonably costed, and a 7/7 with trample already there is exactly the kind of attacker you need to get through and win the ground war. Ghor Clan Rampager requires *some* kind of assistance, where Polis Crusher simply offers you an alternative line of play, sink some mana if needed, and swing - this seems like a clear choice for Big Ground/Rampy decks that want mana-sinks. Vs control, the Crusher is *tentatively* good, in that he'll dodge enchantments/potentially break your team out of Detention Sphere / Chained to the Rocks. Even without the Enchantment tech, Crusher is fine as a creature in most matchups, but gets a small strike for anti-synergy with Boon Satyr Bestow. The other biggest strikes against Crusher are that it dies to Mizzium Mortars+Warleader's Helix, where Goliath/Ember do not. I do believe that the Boros/Big Red decks playing both of those as staple removal spells are also relying on Chained to the Rocks, so the argument should be made that Crusher *tentatively may* help in the matchups where he's weak to certain removal, so he still gets a "good" rating vs control.
These ratings are assigned with the rudimentary assumption that you are utilizing a rampier deck and not a faster midrange build. That even being said, a 5/5 for 4 is a house against aggro, and when you're ready to return fire, Polukranos' Monstrosity is perfect for taking out chump blockers or problematic small creatures. Some other very KEY meta creatures you will be happy Polukranos hits, in actual games, when you are playing from behind;
. There is also some "semi-combo" potential worth mentioning, if you're a Devotion G "splash" Gruul deck, you may find Bow of Nylea worth running 1-2 of main perhaps, and the Bow interacts ridiculously well with Polukranos. Polukranos is really only at his worst against control decks, as they won't typically have creatures for him to interact with, and he'll feel like a vanilla 4 for 5/5, which although it won't help you fight through attrition/card advantage, it's not a *bad* threat.
Currently considered the "worst" of the Gods cycle, as in all fairness, the Gods are very different to evaluate than most cards of Magic we've ever had. The simplest rule here is, for the Gods to do their job better, you have to work with them, and if choosing Nylea, she offers several distinct desired effects for G heavy midrange decks - trample, trample, and much needed trample. Her star rating is "good" against just about anything, and I feel that's a safe rating if you've constructed your deck to work with her well enough. The real strikes against her are that she limits your deckbuilding choices significantly - Ember Swallower, Hammer of Purphoros, and/or Stormbreath Dragon are all quality cards, but not ideal core cards for Nylea decks. The anti-synergy may not seem like that big of a deal, and it may not come up in the majority of games, but it becomes way more pronounced in longer games where it matters, and you're topdecking. Do you want Nylea to be active off whatever you topdeck when you need it? In the school of "optimal" deckbuilding, you should want and need every card to count on it's own, whether it's a synergistic piece or not, and if built for it, the "synergy pieces" can still be relevant on their own sometimes.
[CARD]
Purphoros, God of the Forge[/CARD] - Rating: A:* M:** C:**
In contrast to Nylea, Purphoros is considered one of the more powerful Gods currently. Obvious deckbuilding constraints aside, if you're splash Devoting to Purphoros, this eliminates a lot of quality green card options, and you're probably better off doing Big Mono Red. It would take a lot of tweaking to get a Gruul Midrange deck that would want Purphoros main, assuming he's "worth it" even without being active, via the pings. Against aggro, he's at his theoretical worst, as you don't want a finisher until you've already stabilized. Against midrange/control decks, Purphoros is at his theoretical best, giving cheap creatures extra reach/card value + the firebreathing. I'd heavily suggest looking into Burning Tree Emissary + Rubblebelt Raiders if building with Purphoros, as well as trying to be as all in on the swarm strategy as possible. It may never be a thing, or it may just get there. Suggestion - avoid this card for now unless you really want it on sideboard against control, finding the exact right/optimal support in a Gruul Midrange shell as opposed to mono-red *or* tokens shell is going to take time, and new sets may change things.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Hey again folks, thank you all for the support on the rating system, I appreciate it and will begin part 2 now for 4 drops and up. Bear with me, this will be as non-biased as I can try and make it, and still honest and all that. But yeah, a very simple "quick" way to rate all of these choices is making things a lot easier for myself and friends, in saving a lot of hard playtest time.
Card Selection, Part 2:
Four Drops - This is perhaps the most perplexing area of current Gruul deckbuilding. First off, 4 is really where you want to be - as mentioned before, 3 drops are inconsistent and not really part of our "usual" curve. In other words, it's *not* normal for this deck in any of it's various forms to go T2 Domri Rade, or T2 <insert 3 drop>, and T2 Domri is indicative of a lot of lucky circumstances going right for you, at least without shocking. A more normal game, the "good" case scenario is to land a 4 drop by T3 generally, with the help of a mana-accelerant either T1 or T2. Anyway, how we determine what 4 drops to actually utilize for our deck is determined by the earlier pieces we chose, and determines our ideal top end as well to an extent. Given how many 4 drops there are, this evaluation will continue with the popular ones, or the fringe/used to be popular at least, but not the draft jank.
Let's start with our current Gruul all-star, and the ratings. These ratings may seem a bit unfair, but this is based on matchups, as well as how GCR actually plays as a creature in real matches. Against aggro, safe to say, he's not bad/usually good. He's not Thragtusk against them, but he's reasonable, and if not playing defense, he's your go-to guy for Bloodrushing (through things such as Boros Reckoner) to quickly end games once you've stabilized. I also firmly believe that if you're midrange and playing a set of GCR, more often than not, you will need to actually cast GCR, it's the Gruul Blitz decks that view this card as a GR +4/4 + trample pump spell, and not as an actual 4 drop. Moving into midrange, I rank GCR as a * mainly due to Desecration Demon,Advent of the Wurm, as well as Loxodon Smiter, all being superior P/T creatures at the same spot or less on curve. Without getting sidetracked on a meta discussion, it's safe to say in a midrange battle, if you are running a full set of Rampagers in a "big midrange arms race" type creature stalemate, your GCR's are going to need *some* support to get the job done, or bigger creatures to bloodrush onto. Again, this rating is a stand-alone card evaluation, not taking into account synergies, which is relevant in low-resource/longer/midrange games. Vs control, GCR is again not that spectacular. He's a reasonable threat, but offers no resilience or longer game advantage, but he's an excellent finishing blow vs a control player who stumbles somehow. In conclusion, the faster your deck is capable of being, the more you are towards aggro on the "aggro-midrange" spectrum, Rampager becomes more high impact, conversely the more midrange you are, the less high impact/threatening this card becomes - it is primarily built for a fast deck needing to punch through creature stalls.
This example is being posted purely for illustrative purposes only, in contrast to Ghor-Clan Rampager. It's easy to see why no Gruul *Midrange* decks actually choose to play the Maaka. Maaka is a straight up inferior card in comparison to Rampager, but it is played heavily in Mono-Red, which illustrates the point that Bloodrush creatures favor small, cheap creature, aggro decks. Keep this in mind if you're having doubts whether your deck *needs* Rampager or not, because of the "it's the best Gruul card" sentiment. The faster you are trying to be, the more Bloodrush you'll want and ultimately need.
Deadbridge Goliath is a slightly more defensive, "more-midrange" version of the GCR. He could *almost* be a 3 star vs aggro, for the fact that he profitably blocks Loxodon Smiter, or trades with Advent of the Wurm but 3 stars are reserved for cards that break the game wide open vs a single archetype/or are immensely well positioned meta-wise. 5 Toughness is relevant in dodging common R removal - Mizzium Mortars + Warleader's Helix, and the late game Scavenge option seems like a natural fit for a more midrange/rampy deck. If playing DG, the one thing you will really want to look out for is more sources of granting Trample to your creatures, especially for midrange battles, where he scores rather low. DG is fairly fine in most midrange matchups, but it isn't going to *pull you ahead* unless scavenged later on, generally speaking he'll just trade with other stuff, which is fair because this is a 4 drop after all. In control matchups, DG does offer some very desired longevity for grind out long games, provided you have the mana for it.
I'm fairly confident in assigning a zero vs aggro here, this card will not reliably profitably block/trade well the turn he comes down against a faster deck, and the haste he grants is completely irrelevant if you are behind/need to stabilize. Literally, this card, in a vacuum, is the last thing you want to see if you're playing from behind. It's explosive capabilities are definitely there, living the dream with a hasted Kalonian Hydra, against opponents who don't actually interact with you. The problem is, the 3/3 Ogre himself is rarely in a position to attack in other midrange creature wars, (through Loxodon Smiter and other previously mentioned optimal 3-4 drops) so from a standalone card evaluation, he really is weak on his own. Vs control, he's perfectly fine, although he is more vulnerable to removal than Rampager/Goliath, the haste potential if left unanswered could be able to heavily punish control decks. Strongly recommended to stay away from this guy, as he is horribly ill-positioned in today's meta, and where Gruul midrange decks need to be stabilizing with their 4 drop.
Here we are with a very synergistic piece that can't completely be evaluated on it's own merits alone. On her own, she's completely unimpressive against anything and everything. Vs aggro, I'd almost assign a zero, but at least unlike the Ogre above, you may be able to hedge *some* value in this card's Devotion, and at least she can attack more safely (with other creatures' help). Vs midrange, she can be at her theoretical best, but she's largely unproven in this format. Like the other 4 drop options, she is worse at attacking into a heavy ground stall, and you obviously need other attackers with her to ensure her survival/most impact. Vs control, she is at her worst, and both encourages over-committing and requires it to be effective at all, with no resilient creature support. If utilizing this card, the primary goal should be using her as a Devotion enabler in addition to attacking with a swarm strategy, but she is no Hero of Bladehold at the end of the day (army in a can). There is too much positioning and too many what if's to make this card good, unless there is a clear Gruul Devotion deck later on that has the right supporting cast for her.
Finally, a good card! This fiery dog is intentionally printed as a 4/5 to dodge a LOT of removal in the format right now, and does so exceptionally. That being said, Ember is a solid creature no matter how or where you slice it, and the right way to view him is perhaps a more offensive Deadbridge Goliath. At first he's a solid body, no strikes against him on that. An extra point is assigned as many posters have noted, he dodges Lifebane Zombie as opposed to green creatures, but don't let that cause you to arbitrarily downvote playing green creatures. Vs aggro, you likely won't be blowing up their lands, but you need him as a blocker, and he's a fine one at that. Vs midrange, the land destruction may or may not be relevant, if you build your deck rampy, the option may come up. If it comes up late, it's probably irrelevant, but with the card being solid already on it's own, it's fine. Vs control, the land destruction can equal free wins if ramped into early, but do not count on it. That being said, cards with once in awhile free win mode activated lines of play absolutely should be considered pedigree over other choices. My one strike against the Firehound is that he does not help a deck caring about being Devoted to green, that may be completely irrelevant to a lot of Gruul decks, but there are ways to build your deck without having to go "all in devotion" deck.
Pretty simple evaluation for a change, this is an obvious sideboard card vs aggro decks, with the caveat being that you should probably only run this if your deck is slanted towards a "devoted green splash". It's not Thragtusk, but it has close to the same stopping power against aggro at the moment. It's also interesting to note that if you can delay playing this card as long as possible, it becomes that much more backbreaking against conventional aggro decks to race the extra life-gain. Nothing to see here vs most midrange and/or control decks. You could opt to play this as a 1-2 of in your main if really wanting to hedge against aggro, and it isn't outright terrible vs midrange if racing. This may also be a solid "bridge" card if the top end of your deck requires more time and set up, and Disciple may be very well be a desired 4-of in hard rampy strategies, should they be able to execute proper inevitability.
This has the same rating as Ember Swallower, but for entirely different reasons which need to be stressed. If Rampager gets a 2 against aggro, meaning fair to good, Polis Crusher should as well. Not great, but fair. Against most midrange matchups, I believe Polis Crusher to be the more reliable card. Ember Swallower can lead to a quick win if you ramp into it's Monstrosity quickly enough - denying the opponent's mana and all that. Polis Crusher is a more reliable/straightforward axis of attack, in that if the game goes late, his Monstrosity is reasonably costed, and a 7/7 with trample already there is exactly the kind of attacker you need to get through and win the ground war. Ghor Clan Rampager requires *some* kind of assistance, where Polis Crusher simply offers you an alternative line of play, sink some mana if needed, and swing - this seems like a clear choice for Big Ground/Rampy decks that want mana-sinks. Vs control, the Crusher is *tentatively* good, in that he'll dodge enchantments/potentially break your team out of Detention Sphere / Chained to the Rocks. Even without the Enchantment tech, Crusher is fine as a creature in most matchups, but gets a small strike for anti-synergy with Boon Satyr Bestow. The other biggest strikes against Crusher are that it dies to Mizzium Mortars+Warleader's Helix, where Goliath/Ember do not. I do believe that the Boros/Big Red decks playing both of those as staple removal spells are also relying on Chained to the Rocks, so the argument should be made that Crusher *tentatively may* help in the matchups where he's weak to certain removal, so he still gets a "good" rating vs control.
These ratings are assigned with the rudimentary assumption that you are utilizing a rampier deck and not a faster midrange build. That even being said, a 5/5 for 4 is a house against aggro, and when you're ready to return fire, Polukranos' Monstrosity is perfect for taking out chump blockers or problematic small creatures. Some other very KEY meta creatures you will be happy Polukranos hits, in actual games, when you are playing from behind;
. There is also some "semi-combo" potential worth mentioning, if you're a Devotion G "splash" Gruul deck, you may find Bow of Nylea worth running 1-2 of main perhaps, and the Bow interacts ridiculously well with Polukranos. Polukranos is really only at his worst against control decks, as they won't typically have creatures for him to interact with, and he'll feel like a vanilla 4 for 5/5, which although it won't help you fight through attrition/card advantage, it's not a *bad* threat.
Currently considered the "worst" of the Gods cycle, as in all fairness, the Gods are very different to evaluate than most cards of Magic we've ever had. The simplest rule here is, for the Gods to do their job better, you have to work with them, and if choosing Nylea, she offers several distinct desired effects for G heavy midrange decks - trample, trample, and much needed trample. Her star rating is "good" against just about anything, and I feel that's a safe rating if you've constructed your deck to work with her well enough. The real strikes against her are that she limits your deckbuilding choices significantly - Ember Swallower, Hammer of Purphoros, and/or Stormbreath Dragon are all quality cards, but not ideal core cards for Nylea decks. The anti-synergy may not seem like that big of a deal, and it may not come up in the majority of games, but it becomes way more pronounced in longer games where it matters, and you're topdecking. Do you want Nylea to be active off whatever you topdeck when you need it? In the school of "optimal" deckbuilding, you should want and need every card to count on it's own, whether it's a synergistic piece or not, and if built for it, the "synergy pieces" can still be relevant on their own sometimes.
[CARD]
Purphoros, God of the Forge[/CARD] - Rating: A:* M:** C:**
In contrast to Nylea, Purphoros is considered one of the more powerful Gods currently. Obvious deckbuilding constraints aside, if you're splash Devoting to Purphoros, this eliminates a lot of quality green card options, and you're probably better off doing Big Mono Red. It would take a lot of tweaking to get a Gruul Midrange deck that would want Purphoros main, assuming he's "worth it" even without being active, via the pings. Against aggro, he's at his theoretical worst, as you don't want a finisher until you've already stabilized. Against midrange/control decks, Purphoros is at his theoretical best, giving cheap creatures extra reach/card value + the firebreathing. I'd heavily suggest looking into Burning Tree Emissary + Rubblebelt Raiders if building with Purphoros, as well as trying to be as all in on the swarm strategy as possible. It may never be a thing, or it may just get there. Suggestion - avoid this card for now unless you really want it on sideboard against control, finding the exact right/optimal support in a Gruul Midrange shell as opposed to mono-red *or* tokens shell is going to take time, and new sets may change things.
Part 3 continued with 5 drops and beyond!
Nice write up Cass! I appreciate you taking your time to help us make informed decisions before we delve into hardcore testing.
The one gripe I have with the 4 drop evaluation is that I think GCR should have 2 stars against midrange. I say this because the recent list I have been testing he has been very useful against both B/W Midrange and other green based midrange decks. The fact that it's a 4/4 blocker when needed to be, an aggressive 4/4 trampler when on the attack, and practically a removal spell/game ender when used at the right time leads me to believe this guy deserves a spot in just about every G/R list unless you are going full ramp.
I've tested Kalonian Hydra in my mono-green build (in my sig), and cut it in favor of Colossus and other cards. It has the ability to be a house, but without haste, it almost never has a chance to grow. With Hammer of Purphoros, it could be worthwhile, but overall, I'm not a big fan of Hammer in a gruul midrange deck except as a possible SB card game 2.
Typically, the only way I've had Kalonian Hydra be successful is to cast it EOT on my opponent's turn with Savage Summoning to be able to attack on my next turn and get in for 8 damage. Comparatively, I could have for 5 mana dropped an Arbor Colossus the turn before and had a 6/6 blocker with reach, and then spend the same 6 mana Hydra took EOT and make Colossus monstrous to a 9/9 and able to attack.
@LeoninKha: Nylea works ok-ish as a mana sink, the higher the cost though, the less effective the sink. 3G to activate means if you have 5-7 free mana open, you only get it once and have 1-3 mana left over. With her granting trample, it's not a bad option though, and as long as you have a ghor-clan waiting in the wings it should be pretty devastating. I might suggest trying Savageborn Hydra as another potential mana-sink target as well, nothing more than as a 2-of and I think you might like it. I really would suggest going 3-of each Clan Defiance and Volcanic Geyser, or even Geyser just as a 2-of. Neither are exactly Bonfire, but, I just like Geyser's instant speed to hit them at an EOT moment. It's a bit concerning having Ruric Thar, the Unbowed in play as it's going to hit you pretty hard too, but if it's a killing blow you're dealing, then who cares.
No pain no gain
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Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
Lists can be found in primer, i'll also add more user created lists in the appropriate tabs.
I think with the coming weeks, especially after SCG Open coming up with Theros becoming legal we're going to be seeing A LOT of red based aggro lists. Chandra Pyromaster, Firefist Striker ect.
That being said, the M-L version clearly shows it's flaws against that match up almost sure to lose G1, and having a "better" chance G2/G3. Though I feel the lists posted here will not run into that issue.
What I'm trying to get at is the whole explosive/consistent argument where I felt explosive with the M-L version, but more "safe" with the more mid-range big guy version. I just felt so helpless sometimes trying to race 3 or 4 of their guys with a single dragon, or my Hedonist getting shocked/magma jet...or Ember Swallower being essentially useless in that match-up.
Some general thoughts:
Xenagos: Okay, yeah I see there has been some discussion on this guy. I'm going to go ahead and say he's good when he's good, and bad when he's bad. I wouldn't say he's not a good card overall, but I also feel like his replacement (who would be Chandra 3.0) wouldn't be THAT much better, but a bit more consistent. If I were going to drop Xenagos, I may very well just replace it with Bow of Nylea before shoving Chandra into the list. Considering it would do what I wanted Chandra to do anyway, give me an out against Aggro (gain 3 life) and an out against midrange Desecration Demon (deathtouch).
Long story short, Xenagos is great against mid-range/control, bad against aggro.
Sylvan Caryatid: it's a necessary evil at this point, it's a fantastic card for what it does. Just a miserable top deck or revealing it with Domri. When I was running Purphoros it wasen't AS bad, but i'd rather another big creature than purphoros. So it's a trade off.
Boon Satyr: this guy is REALLY growing on me. I really like the flash, really love the Bestow as an instant too. Everyone in this thread saying the great interaction between Satyr + Ghor-Clan Rampager was 100% correct.
Thoughts? Oh, I really like the interaction of Bow of Nylea + Polukranos as some of you were posting. It's like, really good. Gives us another out besides Arbor Colossus to the Desecration Demon midrange lists.
New thread addition/idea I wanted to share:
@Seton please feel free to copy/paste whatever of this if you want.
The reason for why I'm suggesting/doing this;
Evaluation method:
Card Selection;
Elvish Mystic - Rating; A:** M:* C:*
Experiment One - Rating; A:* M:- C:**
Dryad Militant - Rating; A:* M:- C:*
Two Drops - Here's our first real workhorse slot, although 2 drops are generally still "low impact" cards, there is a wide selection, and the choices you make here will impact the rest of your deck.
Sylvan Caryatid - Rating: A: *** M:** C:*
Kalonian Tusker - Rating: A:** M:* C:**
Skarrg Guildmage - Rating: A:- M:** C:***
Scavenging Ooze[/CARD] - Rating: A:*** M:** C:*
Burning-Tree Emissary - Rating: A:** M:* C:*
Gyre Sage - Rating: A:** M:* C:*
In short, he may be the perfect extra 2 drop your deck needs if it wants to make explosive plays/has mana dumps later on.
Three Drops - This has historically been a very lacking spot on the curve for Gruul in previous Standard, and still is today I believe. It's mainly due to inconsistent T1 mana acceleration, there isn't a whole lot of value in powering out a T2 3 drop, when you are more likely going to be able to power out a T3 4 drop. Especially when there's only 1x 1 CMC mana dork. That's not to say our card selection all sucks at 3, but there are serious limiting factors that make 3 drops not necessarily where you want to be right now. Special mention also goes to Flinthoof Boar from previous standard, as he could function as a 2 or a 3 drop - we don't have a modular card like that ATM.
Reverent Hunter - Rating: A:** M:** C:*
I give him a solid ** vs midrange, as this guy is better the later you see him, and won't be a dead topdeck, paying 3 for a 6/6 or better is a very real thing with this card. Vs control he's at his worst, as you'll have to commit or have GG permanents in play to make him a threat.
Boon Satyr - Rating: A:* M:** C:***
Witchstalker - Rating: A:* M:* C:*
Renegade Krasis - Rating: A:* M:* C:*
Pyrewild Shaman - Rating: A:* M:* C:**
I'd be happy to do a thorough part 2 write-up continuation for 4 drops and above if you guys like the rating system.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
I'm liking the rating system. Continue if you have time!
I'll update the Primer today, though I dont think your post derailed this thread. More of a PSA on "let's stay focused on the results rather than card selection."
I totally understand, I always try to add as much testing results as I can (via posts or Primer). I don't see as much actual notes or thoughts from specific match-ups. I'd rather see why a card did or did not work, than why you picked it in the first place (general statement).
People get busy, but if we're here to make this competitive and want to win tournaments, we can't have lists thrown around without proper testing, or card choices for that matter.
Thanks to everyone so far though, I don't think it's been a huge problem in this thread, but rather to minimize it as much as we can.
Then you made this gem just now:
I'd love to see more posts like the mention about Chandra, I personally feel that's not only the most helpful kind of post, but it's very easy to prove/back up through testing (and these kind of posts simultaneously speak to the posters experience). This is another huge piece of "tech" that plays hand in hand with *general* card evaluation skill, but is more tied into *specific* skill; meta-evaluating, since you correctly found another card that "did the same job, or can do the same job and other things".
That and I had to say thanks for that post, because I've really been unimpressed with Chandra so far - understandably so, because my builds care about G devotion. You really got me to look at the Bow from another angle, and I think I may have been boarding it out against Desecration Demon decks, or wrongly thinking "I need to put Chandra on my board because I've read about how good she is vs D Demon".
Just with that post you made, I think you've saved me a ton of time in my own testing - I think I can safely not worry about testing her in my build at the moment.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
That and Bow of Nylea + Polukranos.
Declare attacks.
Monsterous Polukranos pinging demon.
Dead Demon.
Ahhh, lovely ! Did not thought about that. And he pings divided as well
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
Does this not also kill Polukranos since they fight?
Edit: unless your X=2 or more I guess lol
Full disclosure: You just spent more time responding to my card choices than I have been able to spend testing them.
I've penciled in 2 Nylea, God of the Hunt as a card that at worst as an indestructible enchantment that gives my team keyword trample, can pump as a mana sink, and can be drawn off the +1 ability of Domri Rade - all this is before I happen to get devotion to green turned on to either 'win-more' or break a board stall in some sort of near mirror. Think of how often Ghor-Clan Rampager is simply Colossal Might that you can draw off Domri.
You are completely correct that the Ember Swallower could easily be Deadbridge Goliath if I decide I like having a lot of G on the board, but I was tentatively diversifying my threats to avoid Lifebane Zombie and Selesnya Charm (no monstrous).
Anything I've said or done could easily be incorrect at this point as I'm basing it on opinions/thoughts/theories/guesses from having played the GR on and off for a very long time ... {an aside on creature power creep, I am probably biased by starting to play MtG at a time when Erhnam Djinn was one of the best creatures you could play. ... Poor Herman, how the mighty have fallen (no one's playing his reprinted buddies either Serra Angel, Sengir Vampire, Shivan Dragon)}
Most importantly I continue to enjoy reading your and other peoples thoughts on certain cards/strategies/matchups - good to know I'll have a head start when the busy-ness of starting a new school year calms down (it doesn't really though). I also really like what you're trying to do with the rating system to try and consider cards against non-specific aggro/midrange/control matchups and would be interested to see your thoughts on 4+ drops if you have time
inked's Gruul Aggro
4x Firedrinker Satyr
4x Rakdos Cackler
4x Experiment One
4x Burning-Tree Emissary
4x Scavenging Ooze
4x Ghor-Clan Rampager
4x Warrior’s Lesson
4x Magma Jet
Enchantments
2x Gruul War Chant
Planeswalkers
3x Domri Rade
1x Xenagos, the Reveler
4x Stomping Grounds
10x Mountain
8x Forest
Creatures
Experiment One - This card likes when you play it early and then play multiple larger powered creatures after it. Seems like a plan this deck would work well with.
Rakdos Cackler - This 2/2 that can’t block simply fills the role of an aggressive cheap creature.
Firedrinker Satyr - Don’t think Goblin Guide, think of another heavily played classic red creature from old tournament lists: Jackal Pup. This is a skill test card, which looks awful, but is in-fact incredibly aggressive. Keep in mind you are the fast deck, life matters more to the opponent than it does to you.
Burning-Tree Emissary - This card allows use to play a 2/2 for essentially free as long as we can utilize the mana generated from it that turn. This card fills a similar role as Frogmite did for Affinity back in the days of Mirrodin.
Scavenging Ooze - Most decks will be creature decks, and if not they will likely run sweepers which not withstanding the new (under-rated) card Anger of the Gods one or both graveyards will have targets to grow the Ooze.
Ghor-Clan Rampager - At 4/4 and Trample this uncommon is already a good creature, however the under-costed Bloodrush sets this card as a staple. It does not trigger Heroic though, if you were wondering.
Planeswalkers
Domri Rade - Card Advantage and creature removal. This is our bounce back, along with not overextending, to get back in the drivers seat post Supreme Verdict.
Xenagos, the Reveler - This card allows the deck additional reach with the token producing aspect. His +1 allows you not to lose tempo if you cast him on curve.
Enchantments
Gruul War Chant - This grants your creatures mass evasion, and pump. This is best in a Mid Range meta, I believe. In an aggro meta I'd likely choose the red god, and in control additional Xenagos, the Reveler.
Instants
Warrior’s Lesson - One of the fastest standard aggro decks of all time was Affinity from Mirrodin block. This deck was fueled by the obnoxiously fast affinity mechanic, but also because it had a draw engine in Thoughtcast which in the deck drew 2 cards for a single mana. This card, though not as broken, plays a similar role in the deck.
Magma Jet - I view this card as Preordain, except you always draw and cast Shock without running Shock in your deck. The scry also enables Domri to hit more often with his +1. Scry also enables you to manipulate your land base and run additional lands to prevent “mana screw” while bottoming lands to draw gas, or less lands and bottom 1 drops while you dig for the 3rd or fourth land to resolve a Planeswalker or other finisher.
LeoninKha's All in-Hammer
4 Boon Satyr
4 Karametra's Acolyte
2 Nylea, God of the Hunt
4 Elvish Mystic
2 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
4 Gyre Sage
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
3 Clan Defiance
+25 lands
I like to ramp
(Gyre Sage could be Zhur-Tha Druid but I'd see if Sage works first because I really like the card)
Edit: On quick contemplation, I'd go 3/3 on Clan Defiance and Volcanic Geyser. Defiance gives you more utility vs. a littered board, but at slower speed. Geyser I see as a "gotcha" eot when they tap out for their sphinx rev or what have you since it's instant speed.
Avatar and Sig by Xen's Inkfox Aesthetics
GWLambs and LionsWG
GMono-Green BeatsG
Testing: BGRock VariantGB
GWBJanky JunkGWB
UWGMimic BantrolUWG
BWApostleypse NowBW
4 Brushstrider
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Dryad Militant
4 Experiment One
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Gore-House Chainwalker
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Scavenging Ooze
4 Lightning Strike
Lands
8 Forest
8 Mountain
4 Stomping Ground
Maybe to replace Rakdos Cackler with Legion Loyalist for better combat.
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
Until proven otherwise, I wouldn't run any green supporting aggro list without Warriors' Lesson. It's the most mana-efficent way to refill your hand. Was that list posted by Craig before that card was spoiled by chance?
I think the list has a ton of fatties as it is, I don't see a need for something like Worldspine Wurm. However, Clan Defiance and Nylea, God of the Hunt are there to provide mana sinks, because your main plan would be to just overwhelm your opponent with huge monsters, but its never a bad idea to have a plan B (direct damage win-con).
The thing about Hammer, I'm mostly trying to exploit the Fervor part, because in conjunction with Karametra's Acolyte it can get pretty crazy and comboish (which is the only thing that makes me want to play a deck so full of creatures, I'm not an aggro guy). Being able to pump out tokens and give your lands better use in the late game is a good plus against control decks though.
What would you change anyway, without taking the deck into a different route?
Nope, the list after Theros fully spoiled. Agreed that Warriors' Lesson is a great card for refilling your hand, maybe a 3-of ? You can always tweak a bit. I think Domri Rade, Xenagos, and Gruul War Chant can go to SB.
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
To be honest I've tried to build around Kalonian Hydra and Hammer, but it just not solid enough.
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
This is something that I am currently debating in my own midrange list. I run 2x Hammer of Purphoros which makes choosing my 5 drop a little harder.
As of now I need to decide which 5-drop I want to run. My choices are..
1)Stormbreath Dragon: Most aggressive option with build in protection. The dragon is definitely the best choice against control but can be poor against aggro lists. Also a little redundant with hammer on the field.
2)Arbor Colossus: Huge roadblock against aggro and midrange alike and can hit/block some pretty important creatures such as Stormbreath Dragon, Desecration Demon, Archangel of Thune, and Angel of Serenity. Usually pretty mediocre against control decks though.
3)Kalonian Hydra: This card combo's very well with the hammer and a somewhat in between card compared to the other two cards since it can be a decent roadblock while still being devastating on the offense.
I have tested Hydra so far and have to say he is pretty high in the running since he just does so much work by himself, but it really all comes down to what I can expect to see come states, because if the meta is all aggro or Stormbreath Dragon.dec I believe the Colossus will be the best choice.
EDIT : Had my playtest against Mono Red Blitz, Esper Superfriends and American Control thanks to Cassial's list.
Mono Red Blitz : Lost 0-2 with the deck and both on T5. I think it is a bad match up, even after SB I added in extra Bow and 3 Electrickery.
Esper Superfriends and American Control : Win against both decks 2-1 thanks to early drop of Boon Satyr and Ghor Clan Rampager. Game 2 lost because of every drop just got either sphered, bounced or supremed. Game 3 manage to hit early and drop Ruric Thar.
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
Typically, the only way I've had Kalonian Hydra be successful is to cast it EOT on my opponent's turn with Savage Summoning to be able to attack on my next turn and get in for 8 damage. Comparatively, I could have for 5 mana dropped an Arbor Colossus the turn before and had a 6/6 blocker with reach, and then spend the same 6 mana Hydra took EOT and make Colossus monstrous to a 9/9 and able to attack.
@LeoninKha: Nylea works ok-ish as a mana sink, the higher the cost though, the less effective the sink. 3G to activate means if you have 5-7 free mana open, you only get it once and have 1-3 mana left over. With her granting trample, it's not a bad option though, and as long as you have a ghor-clan waiting in the wings it should be pretty devastating. I might suggest trying Savageborn Hydra as another potential mana-sink target as well, nothing more than as a 2-of and I think you might like it. I really would suggest going 3-of each Clan Defiance and Volcanic Geyser, or even Geyser just as a 2-of. Neither are exactly Bonfire, but, I just like Geyser's instant speed to hit them at an EOT moment. It's a bit concerning having Ruric Thar, the Unbowed in play as it's going to hit you pretty hard too, but if it's a killing blow you're dealing, then who cares.
Avatar and Sig by Xen's Inkfox Aesthetics
GWLambs and LionsWG
GMono-Green BeatsG
Testing: BGRock VariantGB
GWBJanky JunkGWB
UWGMimic BantrolUWG
BWApostleypse NowBW
I run something similar to Wescoe's list but it is technically Jund since I splash Black to get my best 4-drop: Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch. Her synergy with the Unleash creatures is amazing, Haste + First Strike is pretty incredible, and she can't be hit with Doom Blade or targeted by Lifebane Zombie, making her the best RGB aggro 4 drop in the game. Reaper of the Wilds is the only other thing I am tempted by thanks to the 1G Hexproof until end of turn and the scry.
Plus B splash gives me access to two outstanding utility cards, Illness in the Ranks (makes Elspeth useless, though I am considering a 3-of Legion Loyalist instead) and Golgari Charm, which dominated control.
I'm not running Dreg Mangler right now because of two things:
1) mana is not good enough. Exava usually has B by the time I am ready to drop her, but turn 3 and 4 is too greedy.
2) Hammer of Purphoros may take a turn to reveal value, but having everything come in with haste and being able to make 3/3 from flooding is just absurdly good. and it grows Experiment One.
This variation of the deck wants to just run opponents over. Nothing fancy, just a ton of damage using haste, trample, and burn. I have frequently done 14 damage in one turn off of one creature, thanks to 3/x, swing, bloodrush, Main Phase 2, Blood. No one is out of my range turn 4.
If Boon Satyr was not so good, I admit I would be tempted to add a different 3-drop creature... Cryptborn Horror. It is best against mid-range decks, but not so good against Control. A creature that relies on you have a board and doing damage is too situational. I know. I've tried.
Mindsparker is also a potential value card. Slow, but against control it is extra damage. On the other hand, Splatter Thug was a better attacker and had synergy with Exava, and still isn't good.
Varolz, the Scar-Striped is the last option, but he is sooo slow. Not what this deck wants.
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Experiment One
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Gore-House Chainwalker
3 Brushstrider
3 Boon Satyr
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
3 Domri Rade
3 Flesh // Blood
2 Hammer of Purphoros
Lands 22
4 Stomping Ground
4 Blood Crypt
4 Overgrown Tomb
5 Mountain
5 Forest
3 Golgari Charm
3 Illness in the Ranks
3 Act of Treason
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Fog
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Card Selection, Part 2:
Ghor-Clan Rampager - Rating: A:** M:* C:*
Rubblebelt Maaka - Rating: A:- M:- C:-
Deadbridge Goliath - Rating: A:** M:* C:**
Ogre Battledriver - Rating: A:- M:* C:**
Rubblebelt Raiders - Rating: A:* M:* C:-
Ember Swallower - Rating: A:** M:** C:**
Nylea's Disciple - Rating: A:*** M:* C:*
Polis Crusher - Rating: A:** M:** C:**
Polukranos, World Eater - Rating: A:*** M:** C:**
Nylea, God of the Hunt - Rating: A:* M:** C:**
Purphoros, God of the Forge[/CARD] - Rating: A:* M:** C:**
Part 3 continued with 5 drops and beyond!
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Nice write up Cass! I appreciate you taking your time to help us make informed decisions before we delve into hardcore testing.
The one gripe I have with the 4 drop evaluation is that I think GCR should have 2 stars against midrange. I say this because the recent list I have been testing he has been very useful against both B/W Midrange and other green based midrange decks. The fact that it's a 4/4 blocker when needed to be, an aggressive 4/4 trampler when on the attack, and practically a removal spell/game ender when used at the right time leads me to believe this guy deserves a spot in just about every G/R list unless you are going full ramp.
No pain no gain