I think I'm going to take back my words on Ghor-Clan Rampager. Having him in a deck definitely put an extra combat trick in your sleeve as well as Boon Satyr.
@mootown2 : Totally agree with you. As much as there are lots of good green cards out there, but up against Lifebane Zombie I think it puts us in a bad situation. Having dragon at least dodges that.
Between Ghor-Clan Rampager and Ember Swallower, I think its down to a meta call. The upside to Boon Satyr over Ghor-Clan though is that Flash can be used outside of combat in response to Lifebane and Thoughtseize. Ghor-Clan can't dodge those as easily. Ember Swallower can. Therefore, I'd say that if you have to deal with a lot of Lifebane Zombies, then run Ember Swallower instead. If not, then just play Ghor-Clan.
I just got back from a night of intense gauntlet testing BBD's version and my own modified version, mostly against Rakdos control - an absolute hellish matchup. I will say it right now, the strongest creature in standard now, the new Thragtusk/public enemy #1 is DESECRATION DEMON, hands down. He is simply so well positioned, without any Lingering Souls or Undying creatures to ignore him, or Thundermaw Hellkite to buzz past him and steal a win. Granted, my test partner was also running 3-4x Master of Cruelties, which is impossible to win past without Domri Rade + forcing a fight on it. Black based control I do feel with utter certainty is going to be our biggest area of struggle. We can force them to 1 for 1 our big threats, but the problem is that's exactly what they want to do.
How is everyone else faring against B/R or G/B control decks? I do feel we were grudge matching a lot, he never needed any draw spells, he was mainboarding excessive removal for me. We were also just doing a lot of G1's, so it wasn't strictly by the books "true" testing, but then again, I feel you should do 20+ game 1s, and then another 20+ g2/3's to really get a feel for things.
My #1 MVP tonight was without a doubt - Arbor Colossus against the annoying Desecration Demons. My strategy was to draw out the removal with the earlier threats, and then pray I could stick a Colossus and untap + go monstrous the next turn. Every game that I tried Stormbreath Dragon instead, I was thoroughly embarassed. I don't say that either because I don't want to shell out $110 for a new set of T-maws, and just want my big fat greens to be better. Why should my 5 drop mythic dragon lose in a heads up fight against a 4 drop demon? I have to pay another 7 and go monstrous first before it can have a chance? I realize I'm sounding absolutely bitter right now, and I think Desecration Demon is beyond broken in this format the way it's positioning right now.
EDIT: other mentions Skarrg Guildmage did reasonable work, Scooze did next to nothing and was quickly swapped back in for Skarrg. Xenagos, the Reveler being able to generate Satyr tokens can be clutch in holding down a Desecration Demon, but you have to remember he isn't gaining loyalty while doing this, and it's not "optimal" use of your planeswalker. Xenagos really in testing has shown me that every turn, he wants to be +1'ing, and helping you make the most explosive / tapout plays as possible. Domri Rade is also essential in these matches, as it's not worth it to bring in removal really. What, would we want Mizzium Mortars?, LOLNOPE, Desecration Demon has a 6/6 body. You're much better off just going bigger and maxing out on your deck's offensive capabilities + having enough threats in the deck.
Unlike U/W control decks though, G/B has Abrupt Decay, and both have access to the newly minted Hero's Downfall - an utterly atrocious card against our walkers strategy. This is more reason why I stress that Xenagos needs to be used as explosively as possible, and Domri Rade sometimes needs to be kept in hand until needed for a clutch fight. Or, use his -2 as aggressively as possible (when profitable to do so) because any good black player will not allow your Xenagos/Domri to just +1 up to ult range now that they have the tools to stop it. Make sure your planeswalkers have actual board impact every given turn.
Chandra, Pyromaster is suddenly very interesting against Lifebane Zombie + Desecration Demon tactics - these Demon control decks don't have a lot of creatures to block with, just one big one that threatens to 2-for-1 or worse most cases.
Also, speaking of Lifebane Zombie, my testing partner never ripped a single one on me in 10 games (2 of main). Seriously, don't live in fear of the zombie, it's not the end of the world if they hit something, and I'm strongly against changing my deck choices/strategy just because this card exists. Your creatures are bigger and don't care about a 3/1, it's the 6/6 that's the problem.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
I swapped out mortars for 3 of in the deck just to play around and see if the deathtouch + trample gave me better reach. So far it has done ok, the utility is touch and go, sometimes I've found it useful, but more often I find myself not using it. In cases where trample doesn't apply, but the deathtouch has helped, it's been more against midrange match-ups where I end up going 1-for-1 against a blocker (of same or superior body). While these decks are typically less creature-centric, I have had a couple instances where this has taken some of the wind out of my sails.
As it stands now, I'm leaning back towards mortars. I'll be testing next with 2 mortars/1 bow.
What have your sideboarding *PLANS* been so far gang?
I've dropped Burning Earth strictly as a meta call, since local decks had already started to streamline their mana bases in preparation. With scry lands coming, I'll probably put these back in as a 2-of.
Pithing Needle continues to do great work. Always goes in vs. America control/midrange, Azorius Control. Usually end up hitting a Jace AoT or Aetherling. In the mirror, I run it vs. Ghor-Clan Rampager and pull mine out. In this match up, I try to go lower and leaner on cmc and play off my current 2 other blood-rushers. So far, this strategy has had decent results.
Gruul War Chant Did good work pre-rotation vs. some G/W/x token brews that were showing up. With Lingering Souls rotating, I expect the junk pack to thin on tokens, but G/W lifegain/tokens has cropped up at a couple of the LGS i play around in. Also handy vs. clunkier midrange decks fielding only a creature or two.
Ratchet Bomb Was handy as a generic answer against threats I didn't have an immediate answer to. Unless it was tokens, I would generally ratchet it to two and let it set there for a threat to emerge unless I had a good idea of what was coming (some games just end too fast).
As far as the rest of the sideboard, I haven't finished redoing it and fleshing it out. With flashback/snappies gone, I may shift Scavenging Ooze in whole or in part into the sideboard.
@Cassial : Ever since Theros full spoiler was out, I've been testing my RG and tweak here and there and playtest via online MWS and mostly were to go up against either BG or RB decks. I feel the difficulties against B rather than UW or UB control decks.
RB has Master of Cruelties to hold down the ground. MoC forces you to block, otherwise, they will just Magma Jet you for the win. It is a shame that our fatties definitely lost 1 on 1 combat battle with the demon, no matter how big our dudes are. BG has Lotleth Troll and flying Desecration Demon. Against this deck, I have experienced more wins against it than losing thanks to Mistcutter Hydra and Rogue's Passage. For as long as I have ZTD or Elf on board, they helped me to tap the flying demon. Still, if the demon dropped on T3 then I guess we can call it a day. Another fear is against Jund deck that's heavy in removal and early Rakdos's Return. They just seems to have answer to everything in our list, but maybe a bit unbalance if they were to go up against control decks.
I will say it right now, the strongest creature in standard now ... is DESECRATION DEMON
I was occasionally trying Plummet as a 2-of in my sideboard on and off this past summer simply for Olivia Voldaren and Desecration Demon. It was extremely difficult to win if either card really gets going. I wasn't planning on running any Plummet yet as we now have access to two cards with reach that are worthy of maindeck consideration - Ruric Thar, the Unbowed and Arbor Colossus - that could potentially be the top of our curve. Desecration Demon very well could be a format defining card at the beginning of this standard as its an undercosted 6/6 flyer whose drawback is The Abyss and can be played in multiples and dodges Doom Blade and Mizzium Mortars. Just be glad that Mutilate did rotate - we would have started to see even more Jund without if the standard season had gone on much longer I think!
I was occasionally trying Plummet as a 2-of in my sideboard on and off this past summer simply for Olivia Voldaren and Desecration Demon. It was extremely difficult to win if either card really gets going. I wasn't planning on running any Plummet yet as we now have access to two cards with reach that are worthy of maindeck consideration - Ruric Thar, the Unbowed and Arbor Colossus - that could potentially be the top of our curve. Desecration Demon very well could be a format defining card at the beginning of this standard as its an undercosted 6/6 flyer whose drawback is The Abyss and can be played in multiples and dodges Doom Blade and Mizzium Mortars. Just be glad that Mutilate did rotate - we would have started to see even more Jund without if the standard season had gone on much longer I think!
**small update before my bigger more beneficial update*
I think im very settled on going Carytid over Zhur-taa druid. Watching and re-watching BBD's games and from my own, the ping was nice but, not worth the security. You can even re-watch BBD's games where Carytid would have sufficed or out-performed Druid.
Okay, so I ended up proxy-playing my version 2.5 in the Primer, I will put up 3.0 at the end of this post and update it after I write this in the Primer.
Before I get into my testing with RDW and B/W midrange (rough), I just want to say great discussions so far, I read them before testing and it really let me keep a lot of things in mind. It was good seeing BBD's video before I tested as well. Gathering the 2 M-L "Trial" lists that had a 1st place, and 3rd place respectivly keeps my option of card choices open.
VS. RDW (see notes in Primer)
I was a little curious how this would go, using Cassials playgroups list it seemed that I could very well get aggro'd down. To my surprise WE seem to bully them. Perhaps I need to play more games, and for sure SB'ed games. Though I'm deathly afraid of them boarding in threaten effects against us, we have some powerful SB options of our own. Bow of Nylea or even Nylea's Disciple could be serious tech. I'm thinking Disciple over Bow at this point, the life swing is huge and we have a blocker + can flip off Domri.
VS. B/W Midrange
So they kill all our threats and sit behind Alms Beast and/or Desecreation Demon. So fun :/ Either way, this is an uphill battle for us until SB. Even then it still may be an upward hill battle, though my version could very well have lacked against this type of matchup, so maybe my 3.0 version can remedy this.
I liked the ideas of bringing in Plummet or Chandra Pyromaster so we can pressure them, but they gain a ton of life, so I'm kind of at a loss of what we could really do here. I feel as Cassial said Arbor Colossus will be your saving grace here if you choose to run him MD. For faster versions, early dragon is great or early Ember Swallower, but then you're out of gas and when they Hero's Demise it, you're going to fall very behind.
@ Cassial
Yeah, I ended up going ahead and testing Caratyid over Zhur-taa. That being said I think Zhur-taa deserves a spot in the deck alongside Caratyid. Though this is what I feel is best for me. I like having the mana dorks to get to my 4-5-6 drops as fast as I can. For this reason I'm dropping the BTE route for now. It's explosive, and it seemed to be successful, but I have my doubts for using that line of play for states. As greedy and aggressive a player I can be, I know when I'm treading into dangerous waters.
As far as constructing a SB goes, I have a more than rough idea at this point. Though I want a bit more of a wide variety of testing in the next couple days to make a more concrete version of what I feel I need.
I feel your testing has given us a ton of valuable insight, and I fully well enjoyed reading it, because I feel though it may be a bit disheartening to hear we have a bad match-up, it's really valuable for us in this thread to see WHY, which you always do. So we can continue refining, because I fully well think this G/R archetype is where we should be at this point in time, maybe it will change later on in Theros standard. Though I feel our idea is focused and playing with the deck more it IS consistent, even if it may not always get there, if that makes sense.
*you were entirely right about Demon, but you can refer to my notes further about my BW match-up*
It's just brutal to try and get around him. Xenagos does an ok job, but cant do it for long, and still it has to be at key times to win.
@Lord Grimpow
yeah it is all meta choices at this point, but at the very least when the meta is shifting I dont think Lifebane zombie will be a huge factor, for the fact people wouldn't want to miss with it. So I'm not so afraid of Zombie that I wont run Green threats, plus we kind of have to run our big green guys anyway.
@ Afosz
Yeah I will test out rampager again, if anything to goad people into blocking, because it's a way to punch past Demon and other problematic creatures.
@ mootown
It's not that we're straight porting RG Kiblar, but rather using the idea of the deck and adapting it into where we feel it should be now. Where we can't overcome opponents with haste, but rather SIZE.
I would recommend this list to people who feel Blue and other blue based lists will be in your meta come States time, or in general Standard tournies at LGS's. Hedonist version is really fast for them to stop a Monsterous Ember swallower, or turn 3 Stormbreath Dragon, apparently it has a good red based aggro matchup as well. Something to think about.
I truthfully don't know what to make of those M-L lists, thoughts?
I also think the sideboard could benefit from Ranger's Guile to deal with B/x control/midrange lists that are packed with removal. Also don't count out Plummet, Act of Treason, and Traitorous Instinct against other midrange lists.
I was a little curious how this would go, using Cassials playgroups list it seemed that I could very well get aggro'd down. To my surprise WE seem to bully them. Perhaps I need to play more games, and for sure SB'ed games. Though I'm deathly afraid of them boarding in threaten effects against us, we have some powerful SB options of our own. Bow of Nylea or even Nylea's Disciple could be serious tech. I'm thinking Disciple over Bow at this point, the life swing is huge and we have a blocker + can flip off Domri.
Recall that Kibler Gruul almost single-handedly ran the Gruul Blitz (with Boros Reckoner) out of consistent t8 appearances - you should be able to bully them (if they dont explode all over you) - I get that Nylea's Disciple is a creature, but it's no Thragtusk - the Bow of Nylea intuitively feels better simply for how versatile it should be - however, I'm backing Hammer of Purphoros out of the gates as the god weapon we want and not sure if I have room for a Bow or 2 in the SB
I liked the ideas of bringing in Plummet or Chandra Pyromaster so we can pressure them, but they gain a ton of life, so I'm kind of at a loss of what we could really do here. I feel as Cassial said Arbor Colossus will be your saving grace here if you choose to run him MD.
Yeah, I ended up going ahead and testing Caratyid over Zhur-taa. That being said I think Zhur-taa deserves a spot in the deck alongside Caratyid. Though this is what I feel is best for me.
I was planning on trotting Gyre Sage back out, but the Versus Video is fairly convincing that the format is slow enough for the incidental damage from Zhur-Taa Druid to matter and it can always tap for G (even if it is only one)
yeah it is all meta choices at this point, but at the very least when the meta is shifting I dont think Lifebane zombie will be a huge factor, for the fact people wouldn't want to miss with it. So I'm not so afraid of Zombie that I wont run Green threats, plus we kind of have to run our big green guys anyway.
agree that it will be more of a SB card than main immediately after rotation and that we're going to play some of our big green threats regardless of its presence
It's not that we're straight porting RG Kiblar, but rather using the idea of the deck and adapting it into where we feel it should be now. Where we can't overcome opponents with haste, but rather SIZE.
I agree that starting with something that you still have about half of and was successful is a reasonable starting point - I only said that to keep the "that was old standard" maniacs off of me. I see the deck becoming even more like Fires of Yavimaya with Hammer of Purphoros slotting in for Fires - so it's still about haste and size ... I'd even consider running a couple Nylea, God of the Hunt as trample-enablers since we've lost Kessig Wolf Run
I feel like all the deck lists I see for the most part right now are reasonable starting points for an undefined metagame - including both of your versions. I think Stormbreath Dragon is my personal Hellrider right now - it's good but I don't feel as high on it as most other people seem to be in "creature-based near mirrors" which is phrase I loved to throw around in the Gruul Aggressive Midrange thread I started for the tail end of the previous standard season ... for the record, here's where I think I'm currently at in a no Stormbreath, no Xenagos build
I would be leaning towards another Ruric Thar or maybe Sylvan Primordial for the "big creature" slot ... right now, the sideboard is just a pile of on-color good cards that should be good against a room full of random opponents - if anyone thinks any of my choices need some explanation let me know and I'll agree that the card is trashy or say a few words about it
Imo Xanagos +1 synergises well with ramp and big creatures, his +0 is also solid.
Chandra's ping is nice but her ulti is completely wasted on monster heavy deck.
in my testing, xenagos has been pretty weak. It's great that he can churn out a bunch of 2/2 hasty tokens, but with 3 loyalty, he won't do it for long. His +1 is pretty situational, considering you need something to do with the mana. When you curve perfectly, xenagos is fantastic, but outside of a specific draw, he's very mediocre. Chandra on the other hand has much better potential for value, both being able to ping creatures (making your burn more effective as removal in the process), getting blockers out of the way, and drawing cards.
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in my testing, xenagos has been pretty weak. It's great that he can churn out a bunch of 2/2 hasty tokens, but with 3 loyalty, he won't do it for long. His +1 is pretty situational, considering you need something to do with the mana. When you curve perfectly, xenagos is fantastic, but outside of a specific draw, he's very mediocre. Chandra on the other hand has much better potential for value, both being able to ping creatures (making your burn more effective as removal in the process), getting blockers out of the way, and drawing cards.
I would have to agree with you on Xenagos. I mean against B with they keeps on casting removals and R keeps on blasting mana producers, Xenagos's +1 is not useful and 0 ability does not last long. It is great against creature based or control decks. Chandra on the other hand lets you to ping and gives you one less creature able to block at least.
The SB-Dragon, I think running him MD is inevitable. Despite slightly small than previous T-maw and vulnerable to miz mortars, a hasty flyer is much useful in most games I tested.
I would have to agree with you on Xenagos. I mean against B with they keeps on casting removals and R keeps on blasting mana producers, Xenagos's +1 is not useful and 0 ability does not last long. It is great against creature based or control decks. Chandra on the other hand lets you to ping and gives you one less creature able to block at least.
The SB-Dragon, I think running him MD is inevitable. Despite slightly small than previous T-maw and vulnerable to miz mortars, a hasty flyer is much useful in most games I tested.
xenagos is just very hard to build a consistent draw using since his +1 is so situational. Maybe the cards will get there with new theros sets coming in.
the dragon is very real however. Sometimes they have the mizzium mortars or doom blade, but otherwise he just crushes. Desecration demon is the only real non-white flyer I can think of and he's one of the few creatures that trumps blood baron of vizkopa.
I already made a list of cards he's good against in another thread:
voice of resurgence
loxodon smiter
fleecemane lion
angel of serenity
banisher priest
azorius charm
warleader's helix
spear of heliod
archangel of thune
boros reckoner
chained to the rocks
pacifism
obzedat
blood baron of vizkopa
The only way to go around Desec Demon, or at least for temporary, after sideboarding, is Act of Treason. Gets to kill one of their dude or swing for extra 6.
Now I am surprised as you guys are that Domri Rade is not in this deck, but from my somewhat limited time playing this deck I found that I just missed to much and preferred Chandra and Xenagos in his place.
Now I am surprised as you guys are that Domri Rade is not in this deck, but from my somewhat limited time playing this deck I found that I just missed to much and preferred Chandra and Xenagos in his place.
@Skyrian : I've tested your build and it was great ! I think I'm lovin' it at the moment, and need to play test a bit more. I had a match against Junk Obzedat, won on game 3 thanks to Witchstalker + bestowed Boon Satyr + Rogue's Passage. He's like Blastoderm that I love. Game 2 lost due to mana screw (this thing do happened) and his Obzedat keeps on blinking away. Xenagos makes overloaded Miz Mortars a lot easier. My list at the moment :
@Skyrian : I've tested your build and it was great ! I think I'm lovin' it at the moment, and need to play test a bit more. I had a match against Junk Obzedat, won on game 3 thanks to Witchstalker + bestowed Boon Satyr + Rogue's Passage. He's like Blastoderm that I love. Game 2 lost due to mana screw (this thing do happened) and his Obzedat keeps on blinking away. Xenagos makes overloaded Miz Mortars a lot easier. My list at the moment :
Yeah I have to agree that Boon Satyr is actually performing a lot better than I originally thought it would. I had it as a 2-of but after testing the deck against a good amount of different archetypes I found out that he's actually quite good against almost all of them! the only time I really side him out is against heavy burn decks because the 2 toughness is just too much of a liability, but even there you just save him for a bestow.
It is funny that you mention Mortars+Xenagos because that combo is what usually helps me blow out any deck that tries to race me, I have won many games on the back of a turn 4-5 mortars.
@Moo - Like the list, I think I'm in agreement with you and Joe, Xenagos really has build around potential, but right now I'm starting to feel he's just not consistent enough. Maybe when the full Theros block is available, and we have more creatures with Monstrosity at lower points of the curve, thinking a GRFleecemane Lion here.
Anyway, the one thing I most wanted to comment on, I immediately liked your list and have been doing a similar version - Nylea is an absolute boss and one of the few things that has kept me in games vs B based removal heavy control. Our worst matchup yet, IMO, I'm far more concerned about getting 1-for-1'd all day by black decks than I am worried about U/W, but that's me.
The one "problem" or nitpick I guess I want to point out to you, you'll see this the more you playtest it will be a thing, especially in low resource/drawn out long games - Nylea will have serious Devotion issues if you're using Ember Swallower as a core creature in your deck.
I've noticed since we've started brewing with Theros, that a lot of the card choices tend to pull us in different directions, or synergize with some cards, but not with others. It seems very clear to me that if you're going "big stompy" *and* you want to run Hammer of Purphoros, you can't count reliably on Nylea. If you really want to run Nylea, and she *does* do extremely well in games I've had her, you have to make the deck work with her for her to do her job.
If playing Nylea - you probably want to be playing 3-4x Kalonian Tusker // 3-4x Boon Satyr and some number of Arbor Colossus (which I see you're on board with, Nylea+Arbor are really made for each other).
I'm not saying you have to go "mono-green splash red" here, but it's a very serious consideration I think is worth discussing; I personally would advocate staying as G heavy as possible if going with Nylea. Which is a shame, because I think Hammer is devastating with a big 6/6 stompy green deck as well. Your other options at 4 with Nylea are Polukranos, and Deadbridge Goliath - which you and I were fans of before :>.
It's definitely possible to make Nylea work in Gruul, but having her in there asks you to "focus" your deck into the heavy stompy version without land destruction or other elements. It can be limiting, in a sense, but it's also increasing the synergistic power of the deck as a whole if you build closer to what she asks - heavier G.
EDIT: If going for Nylea/Green, you really want Polukranos + Bow of Nylea, that interaction is bonkers and makes up for not having haste. Also, Bow is much better vs aggro with the life gain, where haste is not what I want if I'm on the defensive.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
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@mootown2 : Totally agree with you. As much as there are lots of good green cards out there, but up against Lifebane Zombie I think it puts us in a bad situation. Having dragon at least dodges that.
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
How is everyone else faring against B/R or G/B control decks? I do feel we were grudge matching a lot, he never needed any draw spells, he was mainboarding excessive removal for me. We were also just doing a lot of G1's, so it wasn't strictly by the books "true" testing, but then again, I feel you should do 20+ game 1s, and then another 20+ g2/3's to really get a feel for things.
My #1 MVP tonight was without a doubt - Arbor Colossus against the annoying Desecration Demons. My strategy was to draw out the removal with the earlier threats, and then pray I could stick a Colossus and untap + go monstrous the next turn. Every game that I tried Stormbreath Dragon instead, I was thoroughly embarassed. I don't say that either because I don't want to shell out $110 for a new set of T-maws, and just want my big fat greens to be better. Why should my 5 drop mythic dragon lose in a heads up fight against a 4 drop demon? I have to pay another 7 and go monstrous first before it can have a chance? I realize I'm sounding absolutely bitter right now, and I think Desecration Demon is beyond broken in this format the way it's positioning right now.
EDIT: other mentions
Skarrg Guildmage did reasonable work, Scooze did next to nothing and was quickly swapped back in for Skarrg.
Xenagos, the Reveler being able to generate Satyr tokens can be clutch in holding down a Desecration Demon, but you have to remember he isn't gaining loyalty while doing this, and it's not "optimal" use of your planeswalker. Xenagos really in testing has shown me that every turn, he wants to be +1'ing, and helping you make the most explosive / tapout plays as possible.
Domri Rade is also essential in these matches, as it's not worth it to bring in removal really. What, would we want Mizzium Mortars?, LOLNOPE, Desecration Demon has a 6/6 body. You're much better off just going bigger and maxing out on your deck's offensive capabilities + having enough threats in the deck.
Unlike U/W control decks though, G/B has Abrupt Decay, and both have access to the newly minted Hero's Downfall - an utterly atrocious card against our walkers strategy. This is more reason why I stress that Xenagos needs to be used as explosively as possible, and Domri Rade sometimes needs to be kept in hand until needed for a clutch fight. Or, use his -2 as aggressively as possible (when profitable to do so) because any good black player will not allow your Xenagos/Domri to just +1 up to ult range now that they have the tools to stop it. Make sure your planeswalkers have actual board impact every given turn.
Chandra, Pyromaster is suddenly very interesting against Lifebane Zombie + Desecration Demon tactics - these Demon control decks don't have a lot of creatures to block with, just one big one that threatens to 2-for-1 or worse most cases.
Also, speaking of Lifebane Zombie, my testing partner never ripped a single one on me in 10 games (2 of main). Seriously, don't live in fear of the zombie, it's not the end of the world if they hit something, and I'm strongly against changing my deck choices/strategy just because this card exists. Your creatures are bigger and don't care about a 3/1, it's the 6/6 that's the problem.
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South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
I've dropped Burning Earth strictly as a meta call, since local decks had already started to streamline their mana bases in preparation. With scry lands coming, I'll probably put these back in as a 2-of.
Pithing Needle continues to do great work. Always goes in vs. America control/midrange, Azorius Control. Usually end up hitting a Jace AoT or Aetherling. In the mirror, I run it vs. Ghor-Clan Rampager and pull mine out. In this match up, I try to go lower and leaner on cmc and play off my current 2 other blood-rushers. So far, this strategy has had decent results.
Gruul War Chant Did good work pre-rotation vs. some G/W/x token brews that were showing up. With Lingering Souls rotating, I expect the junk pack to thin on tokens, but G/W lifegain/tokens has cropped up at a couple of the LGS i play around in. Also handy vs. clunkier midrange decks fielding only a creature or two.
Ratchet Bomb Was handy as a generic answer against threats I didn't have an immediate answer to. Unless it was tokens, I would generally ratchet it to two and let it set there for a threat to emerge unless I had a good idea of what was coming (some games just end too fast).
Naturalize loved destroying blind obedience, D-sphere, O-rings, and any other pesky cards. Will be replacing it with Destructive Revelry
As far as the rest of the sideboard, I haven't finished redoing it and fleshing it out. With flashback/snappies gone, I may shift Scavenging Ooze in whole or in part into the sideboard.
Avatar and Sig by Xen's Inkfox Aesthetics
GWLambs and LionsWG
GMono-Green BeatsG
Testing: BGRock VariantGB
GWBJanky JunkGWB
UWGMimic BantrolUWG
BWApostleypse NowBW
RB has Master of Cruelties to hold down the ground. MoC forces you to block, otherwise, they will just Magma Jet you for the win. It is a shame that our fatties definitely lost 1 on 1 combat battle with the demon, no matter how big our dudes are. BG has Lotleth Troll and flying Desecration Demon. Against this deck, I have experienced more wins against it than losing thanks to Mistcutter Hydra and Rogue's Passage. For as long as I have ZTD or Elf on board, they helped me to tap the flying demon. Still, if the demon dropped on T3 then I guess we can call it a day. Another fear is against Jund deck that's heavy in removal and early Rakdos's Return. They just seems to have answer to everything in our list, but maybe a bit unbalance if they were to go up against control decks.
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
I was occasionally trying Plummet as a 2-of in my sideboard on and off this past summer simply for Olivia Voldaren and Desecration Demon. It was extremely difficult to win if either card really gets going. I wasn't planning on running any Plummet yet as we now have access to two cards with reach that are worthy of maindeck consideration - Ruric Thar, the Unbowed and Arbor Colossus - that could potentially be the top of our curve. Desecration Demon very well could be a format defining card at the beginning of this standard as its an undercosted 6/6 flyer whose drawback is The Abyss and can be played in multiples and dodges Doom Blade and Mizzium Mortars. Just be glad that Mutilate did rotate - we would have started to see even more Jund without if the standard season had gone on much longer I think!
There is also Act of Treason and Traitorous Instinct. Just throwing the options out there.
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
I think im very settled on going Carytid over Zhur-taa druid. Watching and re-watching BBD's games and from my own, the ping was nice but, not worth the security. You can even re-watch BBD's games where Carytid would have sufficed or out-performed Druid.
Okay, so I ended up proxy-playing my version 2.5 in the Primer, I will put up 3.0 at the end of this post and update it after I write this in the Primer.
Before I get into my testing with RDW and B/W midrange (rough), I just want to say great discussions so far, I read them before testing and it really let me keep a lot of things in mind. It was good seeing BBD's video before I tested as well. Gathering the 2 M-L "Trial" lists that had a 1st place, and 3rd place respectivly keeps my option of card choices open.
VS. RDW (see notes in Primer)
I was a little curious how this would go, using Cassials playgroups list it seemed that I could very well get aggro'd down. To my surprise WE seem to bully them. Perhaps I need to play more games, and for sure SB'ed games. Though I'm deathly afraid of them boarding in threaten effects against us, we have some powerful SB options of our own. Bow of Nylea or even Nylea's Disciple could be serious tech. I'm thinking Disciple over Bow at this point, the life swing is huge and we have a blocker + can flip off Domri.
VS. B/W Midrange
So they kill all our threats and sit behind Alms Beast and/or Desecreation Demon. So fun :/ Either way, this is an uphill battle for us until SB. Even then it still may be an upward hill battle, though my version could very well have lacked against this type of matchup, so maybe my 3.0 version can remedy this.
I liked the ideas of bringing in Plummet or Chandra Pyromaster so we can pressure them, but they gain a ton of life, so I'm kind of at a loss of what we could really do here. I feel as Cassial said Arbor Colossus will be your saving grace here if you choose to run him MD. For faster versions, early dragon is great or early Ember Swallower, but then you're out of gas and when they Hero's Demise it, you're going to fall very behind.
@ Cassial
Yeah, I ended up going ahead and testing Caratyid over Zhur-taa. That being said I think Zhur-taa deserves a spot in the deck alongside Caratyid. Though this is what I feel is best for me. I like having the mana dorks to get to my 4-5-6 drops as fast as I can. For this reason I'm dropping the BTE route for now. It's explosive, and it seemed to be successful, but I have my doubts for using that line of play for states. As greedy and aggressive a player I can be, I know when I'm treading into dangerous waters.
As far as constructing a SB goes, I have a more than rough idea at this point. Though I want a bit more of a wide variety of testing in the next couple days to make a more concrete version of what I feel I need.
I feel your testing has given us a ton of valuable insight, and I fully well enjoyed reading it, because I feel though it may be a bit disheartening to hear we have a bad match-up, it's really valuable for us in this thread to see WHY, which you always do. So we can continue refining, because I fully well think this G/R archetype is where we should be at this point in time, maybe it will change later on in Theros standard. Though I feel our idea is focused and playing with the deck more it IS consistent, even if it may not always get there, if that makes sense.
*you were entirely right about Demon, but you can refer to my notes further about my BW match-up*
It's just brutal to try and get around him. Xenagos does an ok job, but cant do it for long, and still it has to be at key times to win.
@Lord Grimpow
yeah it is all meta choices at this point, but at the very least when the meta is shifting I dont think Lifebane zombie will be a huge factor, for the fact people wouldn't want to miss with it. So I'm not so afraid of Zombie that I wont run Green threats, plus we kind of have to run our big green guys anyway.
@ Afosz
Yeah I will test out rampager again, if anything to goad people into blocking, because it's a way to punch past Demon and other problematic creatures.
@ mootown
It's not that we're straight porting RG Kiblar, but rather using the idea of the deck and adapting it into where we feel it should be now. Where we can't overcome opponents with haste, but rather SIZE.
Anyway,
Here's version 3.0
4x Sylvan Caryatid
3x Zhur-taa Druid
3x Ember Swallower
3x Polukranos, world eater
1x Ruric-Thar, the Unbowed
3x Ghor-Clan Rampager
2x Arbor Colossus
3x Stormbreath Dragon
3x Boon Satyr
2x Xenagos
2x Mizzium Mortars
4x Stomping Grounds
4x Temple of Abandon
9x Forest
6x Mountain
Overall, consistent.
I also want to post this list too, this type of list has been placing 1st-3rd in 4 round and 5 round latest tournies on Magic-League.
9 Mountain
4 Stomping Ground
4 Temple of Abandon
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Satyr Hedonist
4 Ember Swallower
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
Overall, explosive.
I would recommend this list to people who feel Blue and other blue based lists will be in your meta come States time, or in general Standard tournies at LGS's. Hedonist version is really fast for them to stop a Monsterous Ember swallower, or turn 3 Stormbreath Dragon, apparently it has a good red based aggro matchup as well. Something to think about.
I truthfully don't know what to make of those M-L lists, thoughts?
I also think the sideboard could benefit from Ranger's Guile to deal with B/x control/midrange lists that are packed with removal. Also don't count out Plummet, Act of Treason, and Traitorous Instinct against other midrange lists.
And Anger of the Gods against aggro seems good even with the 0/3. And I also like the idea of Nylea's Disciple by Seton.
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
Recall that Kibler Gruul almost single-handedly ran the Gruul Blitz (with Boros Reckoner) out of consistent t8 appearances - you should be able to bully them (if they dont explode all over you) - I get that Nylea's Disciple is a creature, but it's no Thragtusk - the Bow of Nylea intuitively feels better simply for how versatile it should be - however, I'm backing Hammer of Purphoros out of the gates as the god weapon we want and not sure if I have room for a Bow or 2 in the SB
If/when the buzz/hype surrounding Xenagos, the Reveler wears off, we will probably be running a copy or two of Chandra, Pyromaster main over the new guy. Also, my tentative list is running Arbor Colossus and Ruric Thar, the Unbowed main to reach troubling flyers instead of trying to take to the skies with Stormbreath Dragon which can't do much against the one I fear the most: Desecration Demon
I was planning on trotting Gyre Sage back out, but the Versus Video is fairly convincing that the format is slow enough for the incidental damage from Zhur-Taa Druid to matter and it can always tap for G (even if it is only one)
agree that it will be more of a SB card than main immediately after rotation and that we're going to play some of our big green threats regardless of its presence
yeah, not sure why you wouldn't want one of the best Gruul creatures ever printed somewhere in there
I agree that starting with something that you still have about half of and was successful is a reasonable starting point - I only said that to keep the "that was old standard" maniacs off of me. I see the deck becoming even more like Fires of Yavimaya with Hammer of Purphoros slotting in for Fires - so it's still about haste and size ... I'd even consider running a couple Nylea, God of the Hunt as trample-enablers since we've lost Kessig Wolf Run
I feel like all the deck lists I see for the most part right now are reasonable starting points for an undefined metagame - including both of your versions. I think Stormbreath Dragon is my personal Hellrider right now - it's good but I don't feel as high on it as most other people seem to be in "creature-based near mirrors" which is phrase I loved to throw around in the Gruul Aggressive Midrange thread I started for the tail end of the previous standard season ... for the record, here's where I think I'm currently at in a no Stormbreath, no Xenagos build
3 Zhur-Taa Druid
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Kalonian Tusker
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
3 Ember Swallower
2 Nylea, God of the Hunt
3 Polukranos, World Eater
3 Arbor Colossus
2 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Hammer of Purphoros
9 Forest
6 Mountain
4 Stomping Ground
4 Temple of Abandon
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 big creature
1 Hammer of Purphoros
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Clan Defiance
4 Magma Jet
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Burning Earth
I would be leaning towards another Ruric Thar or maybe Sylvan Primordial for the "big creature" slot ... right now, the sideboard is just a pile of on-color good cards that should be good against a room full of random opponents - if anyone thinks any of my choices need some explanation let me know and I'll agree that the card is trashy or say a few words about it
in my testing, xenagos has been pretty weak. It's great that he can churn out a bunch of 2/2 hasty tokens, but with 3 loyalty, he won't do it for long. His +1 is pretty situational, considering you need something to do with the mana. When you curve perfectly, xenagos is fantastic, but outside of a specific draw, he's very mediocre. Chandra on the other hand has much better potential for value, both being able to ping creatures (making your burn more effective as removal in the process), getting blockers out of the way, and drawing cards.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
I would have to agree with you on Xenagos. I mean against B with they keeps on casting removals and R keeps on blasting mana producers, Xenagos's +1 is not useful and 0 ability does not last long. It is great against creature based or control decks. Chandra on the other hand lets you to ping and gives you one less creature able to block at least.
The SB-Dragon, I think running him MD is inevitable. Despite slightly small than previous T-maw and vulnerable to miz mortars, a hasty flyer is much useful in most games I tested.
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
xenagos is just very hard to build a consistent draw using since his +1 is so situational. Maybe the cards will get there with new theros sets coming in.
the dragon is very real however. Sometimes they have the mizzium mortars or doom blade, but otherwise he just crushes. Desecration demon is the only real non-white flyer I can think of and he's one of the few creatures that trumps blood baron of vizkopa.
I already made a list of cards he's good against in another thread:
voice of resurgence
loxodon smiter
fleecemane lion
angel of serenity
banisher priest
azorius charm
warleader's helix
spear of heliod
archangel of thune
boros reckoner
chained to the rocks
pacifism
obzedat
blood baron of vizkopa
list of card that trump stormbreath dragon:
mizzium mortars
doom blade
ultimate price
shadowborn demon
hero's downfall
desecration demon
that's all I can think of. Correct me if there's any I missed. Basically if there's not much black going around, the dragon is pretty likely to live.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
Plummet and Arbor Colossus is all I can think of off the top of my head.
Standard:RWUJeskai WinsRWU
Modern:GWBMelira PodGWB
Legacy:WDeath & TaxesW
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
2nd place 6-1-2
3 Mizzium Mortars
4 Domri Rade
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Ember Swallower
4 Satyr Hedonist
4 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Stomping Ground
9 Mountain
7 Forest
2 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Burning Earth
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Flames of the Firebrand
1 Hammer of Purphoros
3rd place 5-1-2
3 Mizzium Mortars
4 Domri Rade
4 Zhur-Taa Druid
3 Ember Swallower
4 Satyr Hedonist
4 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Gyre Sage
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Stomping Ground
8 Mountain
7 Forest
2 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Burning Earth
2 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
2 Flames of the Firebrand
3 Hammer of Purphoros
2 Anger of the Gods
4th place 5-2-1
4 Temple of Abandon
4 Stomping Ground
11 Forest
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2 Nylea, God of the Hunt
4 Experiment One
4 Elvish Mystic
3 Gyre Sage
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Kalonian Tusker
4 Scavenging Ooze
3 Boon Satyr
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
2 Garruk, Caller of Beasts
2 Garruk, Caller of Beasts
2 Primeval Bounty
4 Burning Earth
3 Peak Eruption
4 Pithing Needle
While people setting up for dudes, they're setting up for mana and miz mortars everything and a clear hit afterwards.
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
G/R Stompy
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Zhur-taa Druid
3 Boon Satyr
4 Ghor-clan Rampager
4 Ember Swallower
3 Arbor Colossas
2 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
3 Mizzium Mortar
2 Hammer of Purphoros
Planeswalkers:5
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
Lands:24
4 Stomping Ground
4 Temple of Abandon
2 Mutavault
7 Forest
7 Mountain
1 Mizzium Mortars
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Peak Eruption
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Bramblecrush
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Electrickery
2 Primeval Bounty
Now I am surprised as you guys are that Domri Rade is not in this deck, but from my somewhat limited time playing this deck I found that I just missed to much and preferred Chandra and Xenagos in his place.
Some cards I am highly recommending for everyone here are Arbor Colossus, Hammer of Purphoros, and Zhur-Taa Druid as they have all been very good in testing.
The list looks solid. I like it ! But I might change Mutavault for Rogue's Passage.
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
Thanks man! it is most likely going to be the deck I get together for states minus a few number tweaks here and there.
Also thats a good point considering my relative lack of trample in the deck.
3 Arbor Colossus
3 Boon Satyr
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Ember Swallower
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
2 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Zhur-Taa Druid
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Hammer of Purphoros
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
Lands
9 Forest
6 Mountain
1 Rogue's Passage
4 Stomping Ground
4 Temple of Abandon
2 Act of Treason
4 Burning Earth
3 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Polis Crusher
4 Witchstalker
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
Yeah I have to agree that Boon Satyr is actually performing a lot better than I originally thought it would. I had it as a 2-of but after testing the deck against a good amount of different archetypes I found out that he's actually quite good against almost all of them! the only time I really side him out is against heavy burn decks because the 2 toughness is just too much of a liability, but even there you just save him for a bestow.
It is funny that you mention Mortars+Xenagos because that combo is what usually helps me blow out any deck that tries to race me, I have won many games on the back of a turn 4-5 mortars.
@Moo - Like the list, I think I'm in agreement with you and Joe, Xenagos really has build around potential, but right now I'm starting to feel he's just not consistent enough. Maybe when the full Theros block is available, and we have more creatures with Monstrosity at lower points of the curve, thinking a GRFleecemane Lion here.
Anyway, the one thing I most wanted to comment on, I immediately liked your list and have been doing a similar version - Nylea is an absolute boss and one of the few things that has kept me in games vs B based removal heavy control. Our worst matchup yet, IMO, I'm far more concerned about getting 1-for-1'd all day by black decks than I am worried about U/W, but that's me.
The one "problem" or nitpick I guess I want to point out to you, you'll see this the more you playtest it will be a thing, especially in low resource/drawn out long games - Nylea will have serious Devotion issues if you're using Ember Swallower as a core creature in your deck.
I've noticed since we've started brewing with Theros, that a lot of the card choices tend to pull us in different directions, or synergize with some cards, but not with others. It seems very clear to me that if you're going "big stompy" *and* you want to run Hammer of Purphoros, you can't count reliably on Nylea. If you really want to run Nylea, and she *does* do extremely well in games I've had her, you have to make the deck work with her for her to do her job.
If playing Nylea - you probably want to be playing 3-4x Kalonian Tusker // 3-4x Boon Satyr and some number of Arbor Colossus (which I see you're on board with, Nylea+Arbor are really made for each other).
I'm not saying you have to go "mono-green splash red" here, but it's a very serious consideration I think is worth discussing; I personally would advocate staying as G heavy as possible if going with Nylea. Which is a shame, because I think Hammer is devastating with a big 6/6 stompy green deck as well. Your other options at 4 with Nylea are Polukranos, and Deadbridge Goliath - which you and I were fans of before :>.
It's definitely possible to make Nylea work in Gruul, but having her in there asks you to "focus" your deck into the heavy stompy version without land destruction or other elements. It can be limiting, in a sense, but it's also increasing the synergistic power of the deck as a whole if you build closer to what she asks - heavier G.
EDIT: If going for Nylea/Green, you really want Polukranos + Bow of Nylea, that interaction is bonkers and makes up for not having haste. Also, Bow is much better vs aggro with the life gain, where haste is not what I want if I'm on the defensive.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.