Hey Guys, I was watching the Above the curve: Standard Meta-game Breakdown, and when hey were talking about G/R/x Monster, Brad Nelson starts talking about Courser not being that good for G/R Monsters but good for Jund Monsters. They Also talk about why it really does fit in G/R but fits in Jund.
I would like to hear what people think about this, and what would be the best card to replace Courser if need be?
GR needs incremental advantages over the course of the game. They make it seem like Courser is never turned sideways, which is not true. The GR strategy is pretty close to all in outside of Courser and Courser gives you some breathing space as the game goes on.
Like I have said a number of times, I side this card out a lot, along with Sylvan Caryatid because they are slow and as they stated in the video, you want to try and avoid slow cards most of the time. But I think these are necessary evils. Even though I side them out in almost every match, having them to flex when I am on the draw or when I am on the play is a big deal.
Take the Esper Humans match for example. Courser and Caryatid are cards I side out on the play, but absolutely leave in on the draw where those small advantages that are slow, still allow you to progress in many ways as the game goes on.
I just put Nylea's Disciple as a 4 of in my sideboard for now so I can survive all of the burn floating in my shop. If it was a bigger tournament however, I'd prefer something more efficient.
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I've been a fan of a mix between mortars and flesh//blood (for me it's 5 total for both, usually 3 mortars and 2 blood) in the total 75. It's amazing in the mirror, and even as a 1-of main for me with the 2-1 split with mortars, it's useful enough to be a removal spell for a t2 packrat with a t1 mystic as well as be a game finisher. plus works well with xenagod's ability.
Your list is very similar to mine except I have one less caryatid, courser, and no boon satyrs. Instead running 3 Kalonian's and a Ruric-thar mainboard. I have to say, ruric thar main is doing work, especially since control is back on the rise. Considering running the boon satyrs, but I think it would be too many 3 drops. Still deciding what I want to do for GP Phoenix in a week.
Sideboard - when do you bring in skullcrack? I feel like it's only good against sphinx's rev which I wouldn't side it in vs control anyway. Just wondering your thought process.
27 is minimum creatures for 50% domri hit rate running 4 of them from what I understand, so keep that in mind. I do like the flexibility of boon satyr. I might try swapping out the 1 courser and 1 caryatid instead for 2 flesh//blood or 4 mortars and 1 flesh//blood. I think having 7 dorks and 3 courser is the right number. My opinion though, I could be wrong.
I like the idea of Ruric Thar in the main. He's so strong against control and MBD, and we see those a lot.
I like Skullcrack vs Sphinx's because of the enormous swing in life. In games that go long, Courser and the PW's often give us as much card advantage as the opponent. We have no way to STOP Sphinx's, so I'd rather just push through their CA. Skullcrack is also great against Kiora, and I've been seeing a lot of her at my LGS.
It seems very few lists include Skullcrack, though. Am I over-valuing it? What would you run instead?
kamahl, have you made any changes to your list since your post awhile back? I'm preparing for PHX right now, and I liked the numbers on your things, but I have to say I like xenagod over garruk since it can be a hit from domri, but that actually might be a downside being a creature for the amount of black hand disruption going around.
kamahl, have you made any changes to your list since your post awhile back? I'm preparing for PHX right now, and I liked the numbers on your things, but I have to say I like xenagod over garruk since it can be a hit from domri, but that actually might be a downside being a creature for the amount of black hand disruption going around.
I have only changed the SB. My 15 card side looks like this
I do not run Xenogod because he is overrated. I tried him, but if you are top decking he is terrible, Mystics are terrible, Caryatids are terrible and Courser is really at the bottom of the good. Turning on Devotion is something you only get when you are already ahead and there are so many times I find myself in top deck mode and I just want a way out of it. This guy is not a way out of it, Garruk is. People seem to like this card and I cannot understand why exactly, he has always been terrible for me.
Thanks for the update... yeah I think people like him due to the absurd win more situations they can create. I think it's definitely more of a dream and you're right, top deck mode without xenagos out already is a lot worse. Do you really like the 2 damage from revelry over the ability to remove a god? I feel that I usually lose to gods and devotion more than the chance they might draw it again, but by that time the game should be over. Thoughts? Otherwise I really do like your numbers, and I think I will try something similar. I had been running kalonian and xenagod, but I feel like I have too many 5 drops and not enough ways to stay alive until then. Way too greedy. Although trample has been surprisingly relevant in a lot of situations.
Xenagod is also facing down Blind Obedience now, which makes him pointless for the most part.
The only god I ever really care about is Thassa, and that match is fading for the most part and it leaves me caring more about UW and Esper now which makes the extra damage more relevant. You are now getting 6 targets after board in the control match with Blind Obedience coming in and the extra damage goes a long ways when you are trying to stick a Burning Earth or beat in with haste creatures. The tucking of a god just does not seem relevant anymore with Mono Blue as weak as it is and the Uw version is slower which makes everything else you have better and Thassa less threatening anyways.
As for other gods, you should be having your opponent at 0 or at least threatening to put them out of the game by the time a god is actually active with devotion. Dragon, Hydra, Ruric, and Flesh // Blood should be enough to take care of those things. In the event it is not, you should have Mizzium Mortars still lurking in your deck if they are creature based devotion... if not, why are they still alive?
Basically, you play a slower incremental game in every game 1 and in most games 2 and 3 you just overwhelm them with aggression. Aggro decks to not exist in the format and as a result, switching gears for games 2 and 3 do a really good job of exploiting the fact that decks are not built to play the aggressive game and the ones that are, burn out by the time Dragons and Ruric Thar are about to come online. Sure, you will still run into games where you lose but you can't do much about an opponent outdrawing you.
I played a game in an IQ against mono black where my Domri Rade came out turn 2, drew me 8 monsters in a row (3 dragons, 2 Polukranos, 1 Ruric Thar, 2 Mistcutter Hydra) and I still lost the game because his Underworld Connection drew him 8 removal spells on top of the ones that were from his natural draws. He was at 2 and had exhausted practically every single removal spell in his deck without really seeing that many cards. Sometimes it just happens and you can't do much about it, but I would be shocked if he ever managed to have another match against me pan out like that.
The deck really does not need to get big and splashy, in fact I think it needs to do the opposite.
That also makes sense, I had forgotten about blind obedience, which definitely screws xenagod over. Thanks for the reminder. And yeah makes sense for the game state and how the 2 damage can definitely be more relevant. In terms of clan defiance, I was thinking it would usually be a t3 for x=2 or if i had 2 dorks x=3. is that a good marker to aim for? Also I know you don't want to talk about sideboarding specifics, but is there any match you don't bring in mistcutter? I've been testing it since you intrigued me before about its value in non control matches, and I honestly love the card. Can even see running 2 main instead of 2 ooze maybe
That also makes sense, I had forgotten about blind obedience, which definitely screws xenagod over. Thanks for the reminder. And yeah makes sense for the game state and how the 2 damage can definitely be more relevant. In terms of clan defiance, I was thinking it would usually be a t3 for x=2 or if i had 2 dorks x=3. is that a good marker to aim for? Also I know you don't want to talk about sideboarding specifics, but is there any match you don't bring in mistcutter? I've been testing it since you intrigued me before about its value in non control matches, and I honestly love the card. Can even see running 2 main instead of 2 ooze maybe
Clan Defiance is generally a Fireball. You use it for late game reach. It is handy against Esper Humans too, but generally it is either used as spot removal or late game reach. This card is probably the slot you can mess with in the SB as it is really only there to help me deal with Elspeth. There may be better options, but I like the late game reach it has against Mono Black and UW Control
What are your thoughts on a split of 2 mortars 1 blood, with 1 more mortars and blood in the side. So 3-2 between them total, just split in the main deck? I feel like this could be another removal for pack rat, as well as a finisher game 1 against the mirror
It requires you to already have another guy out to kill a Pack Rat, and if that is the case and for some reason the creature is alive to fight the rat, Rat is probably already bigger or they are more than capable of killing your dude in response. I would stick with the 3 Mortars because Rat is such a bad card for us.
What are your thoughts on a split of 2 mortars 1 blood, with 1 more mortars and blood in the side. So 3-2 between them total, just split in the main deck? I feel like this could be another removal for pack rat, as well as a finisher game 1 against the mirror
I'm running 2 mortars, 1 blood, 1 unravel in the main. Last FNM I swapped my 3rd mortars for 1 fall of the hammer. I also run 1 blood, 1 mortars and 1 unravel in the side.
Blood isn't there as creature removal generally, it's there as opponent removal. It's something that gets sided out vs monoblack, b/w midrange as you opponent can answer it at instant speed.
The 1 Fall of the hammer is an instant speed slightly worse version of blood because it only targets a creature, but can be used in response to removal. It's only a one of, and I've only cast it once, using a mystic to take out a young pyromancer.
I won't give you all the lists out of the article, because you should probably have premium for it and I don't think that is entirely fair to post all of the content (or any of it for that matter), but for the sake of RG, which is a seemingly dying option when compared to Jund and with Naya becoming a more popular option... I suppose I will share the GR list.
He goes on to say that he was running 1 Ruric Thar in the MB and 1 SB for some time, but it was cut because he wanted to lower his curve and Max out the SB with 4 Mistcutter Hydra.
Here is what else he felt like touching on:
Quote from Brian Kibler »
Hammer of Purphoros and Chandra are there both for control decks and Mono-Black Devotion. I'm not totally sold on Hammer yet, but it can help in a ton in games in which you flood out and can also enable hasty Polukranos, World Eater, Ghor-Clan Rampager, or even Xenagos, God of Revels. The haste is less relevant against control decks since you have so many hasty creatures between Mistcutter Hydra and Stormbreath Dragon, so it's possible it should be on the chopping block. It's still a holdover from when Ruric Thar, the Unbowed was around, and as we've discussed, hasty Ruric Thars are super sweet.
Another card I'm considering right now is Fanatic of Xenagos. It doesn't really mesh with the maindeck plan of just trying to ramp into big things, but I think it might have a place in sideboarded games in which you're fighting against cheap removal and going big isn't as attractive. I've actually found that I sideboard out Stormbreath Dragon more than almost any other card because it's pretty mediocre against the aggressive decks as well as against Mono-Black Devotion. I've considered the possibility that Fanatic could give me a way to lower my curve in both of those matchups—in one case mostly to block and in the other to apply pressure earlier—but I'm not quite sure.
I honestly am unsure how I feel about his list.
I like that he has gone up a Scavenging Ooze, but I am not a fan of maxing out on Courser of Kruphix and Sylvan Caryatd (surprise surprise!). I feel like the deck needs to be more aggressive, and that notion was also covered by SCG in their Above the Curve video. Going big is great and all, but spot removal is this decks weakness. It can play around Sweepers fairly well, but cheap and timely spot removal will just cut you down and being more aggressive let's you keep pressure on while being more opportunistic with combat tricks like Ghor-Clan Rampager and Flesh // Blood. Going big works better in a format where removal is not at a cheap premium and so vastly available so it seems interesting that he would like to put the "faster" part of the deck into casting big and slow creatures sooner, rather than casting small and quick creatures over and over.
What I really found interesting about his article, is that he says Hammer is great for a hasty Polukranos yet he finds Stormbreath Dragon weak in the Mono Black match. If you like hasty creatures that take advantage of combat windows, taking a ground pounder that has no trample over a flying dragon just seems bizarre to me. Fanatic of Xenagos is an interesting card that he mentions near the end of the article and while I love me a 4/4 hast creature, the amount of spot removal in the format makes this guy hard to work with in many ways because he is not really a big creature and he is not really a small creature either, which means against Aggro they just swing past him and are capable of racing and against control he really only get's haste when they plan on killing him that turn... let's be honest Loxodon Smiter is a good card in a tough environment and this guy is not much different. I would like to find a match where I could effectively sneak this guy in out of the board, but the SB slots seem better than this guy no matter how you really look at it.
Xenagos, God of Revels is another card I am uneasy with these days. People like Brad Nelson are also dropping this guy to make the deck more aggressive and I can only assume that is because your small top deck creatures just do not do enough with him on board and with Blind Obedience entering the scene as tech against us, he becomes worse. I feel like he belongs in the devotion lists, which I feel are quite inferior to GR Midrange.
I run:
22 lands
No mutavaults
Only 3 Caryatids
3 Scoozies
10 monsters
(one arbor collosus and one Polis Crusher)
One god and two reveler
The rest is pretty stock
I also run two Clan Defiance in my side
(I'd post the list but I am on my phone)
After playing the conservative lists for awhile, I felt that a list like the one posted above is just not threat heavy, and I decided to cut every card I felt I had too much of. The resulting deck definitely plays just as consistently, I suppose I mulligan more often, but I win more games on mulligan hands as well. Going lower on the curve in my experience is a mistake. I played roughly 20 matches with Boon Satyr in that slot and didn't get good results.
I like fanatic as well, but even versus mono black he is a bile blight or blocked.
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Kamahl I ran your list this weekend at GP Phx and went 6-3. Did you attend? I was fairly happy with it, although Desecration demon screwed me over, as well as elspeth in a mono black that I didn't anticipate having white in the side. I also lost hard to the golgari reanimation deck, since I didn't see any of the 3 oozes either game. mistcutter in vs mono black won me a match though. Might need some plummet going forward.
I had some questions regarding how aggressively to mulligan after sideboard, so I always want to have one of the sideboard cards in my starting hand? I've always been confused about that.
Regarding kiblers article, I got to meet him and chat a bit this weekend about RG and we definitely agreed that hasty threats were the way to go, but not sure how to do it. I think rg is positioned well, as more consistent than jund but more reliable and consistently more powerful than naya or jund. just need a way to deal with a couple problem cards. I also concur especially after this weekend that there are a lot of blind obedience and garruk over xenagod is a solid choice. I am also and have always been a fan of running 3 caryatid (and now 3 courser) over the full 4 and I'm not sure why people are so stuck on 4. *shrug* Anyway thanks for the feedback beforehand!
Kamahl I ran your list this weekend at GP Phx and went 6-3. Did you attend? I was fairly happy with it, although Desecration demon screwed me over, as well as elspeth in a mono black that I didn't anticipate having white in the side. I also lost hard to the golgari reanimation deck, since I didn't see any of the 3 oozes either game. mistcutter in vs mono black won me a match though. Might need some plummet going forward.
I had some questions regarding how aggressively to mulligan after sideboard, so I always want to have one of the sideboard cards in my starting hand? I've always been confused about that.
Regarding kiblers article, I got to meet him and chat a bit this weekend about RG and we definitely agreed that hasty threats were the way to go, but not sure how to do it. I think rg is positioned well, as more consistent than jund but more reliable and consistently more powerful than naya or jund. just need a way to deal with a couple problem cards. I also concur especially after this weekend that there are a lot of blind obedience and garruk over xenagod is a solid choice. I am also and have always been a fan of running 3 caryatid (and now 3 courser) over the full 4 and I'm not sure why people are so stuck on 4. *shrug* Anyway thanks for the feedback beforehand!
I ended up playing Bw Devotion and did not do so hot.
Desecration Demon and Elspeth are easily the hardest cards to deal with, but not impossible. Demon is a card you really just need to play smarter combat steps than your opponent and you can just push past him when you are on the offense. Certainly not the easiest thing, but quite doable. Elspeth on the other hand is pretty much just game over unless you can resolve a Flesh // Blood to kill her... you just have to be able to race her or apply enough pressure to prevent them resolving her efficiently. Things like Burning Earth are quite good at this and Destructive Revelry can shoot her back for 2 if it comes up and matters.
With your opening hand, the SB cards matter less than the speed of your start. You are looking to keep hands that apply pressure. Cards like Pithing Needle, and Destructive Reverly are cards I would much rather draw than start with, however if you are in a control match and open with Burning Earth and a Destructive Revelry, you can be in pretty good shape. If you are trimming the slow things like Caryatid and Courser of Kruphix, you should also understand that whatever you draw after your opening, generally has pressure behind it and a low curve to support it so you can get away with some loose hands fairly often. Your opener needs to be able to command what your opponent does on their turn and do it from turn 2 or 3. Early Mistcutter for 2 can build up into a Verdict allowing you to resolve a burning Earth at which point (if properly backed up with Revelry) just wins the game regardless of almost anything that can happen.
You are going to have things die, don't get greedy and try to keep them all. Instead you just need to make smart trades. 2 small Mistcutters and a Elvish Mystic is certainly worth resolving a Burning Earth in most cases, for obvious reasons. If the game starts going late and you cannot push extra damage through to kill them, sandbagging a Rampager Blood Rush is probably better than trying to get the damage through only to have an Elspeth resolve on you.
If Desecration Demon and Elspeth are harder for you to play around and you feel you want extra insurance, you can just drop 2 Clan Defiance from the board and run something like Plummet or Pithing Needle to deal with them. Elspeth is generally harder to deal with than Desecration Demon in my experience and that is why I went with Clan Defiance, because it can deal damage to Elspeth and has other applications in the event I am not starting down an Elspeth.
That makes a lot of sense in terms of specific cards and speed of the hand. Thanks for your take on that. Regarding demon and elspeth yeah, I agree those two are the problem cards. I did try clan defiance and liked it, since it was usually at least a 2 for 1, but I'm not usually in a position to use it to kill demon. If sticking in the RG plan do you think that plummet is the best way at getting rid of it? Or would it be a reasonable alternative to side out 2 dragons for 2 arbor colossus? Obviously this opens me up to more removal after side especially, but at the worst it would be another body, whereas plummet would be a completely dead card (since a lot of the decks have stopped using nightveil as well). I used to run those and it was nice for the mirror as well having another threat that can deal with stormbreath.
I won't give you all the lists out of the article, because you should probably have premium for it and I don't think that is entirely fair to post all of the content (or any of it for that matter), but for the sake of RG, which is a seemingly dying option when compared to Jund and with Naya becoming a more popular option... I suppose I will share the GR list.
He goes on to say that he was running 1 Ruric Thar in the MB and 1 SB for some time, but it was cut because he wanted to lower his curve and Max out the SB with 4 Mistcutter Hydra.
Here is what else he felt like touching on:
Quote from Brian Kibler »
Hammer of Purphoros and Chandra are there both for control decks and Mono-Black Devotion. I'm not totally sold on Hammer yet, but it can help in a ton in games in which you flood out and can also enable hasty Polukranos, World Eater, Ghor-Clan Rampager, or even Xenagos, God of Revels. The haste is less relevant against control decks since you have so many hasty creatures between Mistcutter Hydra and Stormbreath Dragon, so it's possible it should be on the chopping block. It's still a holdover from when Ruric Thar, the Unbowed was around, and as we've discussed, hasty Ruric Thars are super sweet.
Another card I'm considering right now is Fanatic of Xenagos. It doesn't really mesh with the maindeck plan of just trying to ramp into big things, but I think it might have a place in sideboarded games in which you're fighting against cheap removal and going big isn't as attractive. I've actually found that I sideboard out Stormbreath Dragon more than almost any other card because it's pretty mediocre against the aggressive decks as well as against Mono-Black Devotion. I've considered the possibility that Fanatic could give me a way to lower my curve in both of those matchups—in one case mostly to block and in the other to apply pressure earlier—but I'm not quite sure.
I honestly am unsure how I feel about his list.
I like that he has gone up a Scavenging Ooze, but I am not a fan of maxing out on Courser of Kruphix and Sylvan Caryatd (surprise surprise!). I feel like the deck needs to be more aggressive, and that notion was also covered by SCG in their Above the Curve video. Going big is great and all, but spot removal is this decks weakness. It can play around Sweepers fairly well, but cheap and timely spot removal will just cut you down and being more aggressive let's you keep pressure on while being more opportunistic with combat tricks like Ghor-Clan Rampager and Flesh // Blood. Going big works better in a format where removal is not at a cheap premium and so vastly available so it seems interesting that he would like to put the "faster" part of the deck into casting big and slow creatures sooner, rather than casting small and quick creatures over and over.
What I really found interesting about his article, is that he says Hammer is great for a hasty Polukranos yet he finds Stormbreath Dragon weak in the Mono Black match. If you like hasty creatures that take advantage of combat windows, taking a ground pounder that has no trample over a flying dragon just seems bizarre to me. Fanatic of Xenagos is an interesting card that he mentions near the end of the article and while I love me a 4/4 hast creature, the amount of spot removal in the format makes this guy hard to work with in many ways because he is not really a big creature and he is not really a small creature either, which means against Aggro they just swing past him and are capable of racing and against control he really only get's haste when they plan on killing him that turn... let's be honest Loxodon Smiter is a good card in a tough environment and this guy is not much different. I would like to find a match where I could effectively sneak this guy in out of the board, but the SB slots seem better than this guy no matter how you really look at it.
Xenagos, God of Revels is another card I am uneasy with these days. People like Brad Nelson are also dropping this guy to make the deck more aggressive and I can only assume that is because your small top deck creatures just do not do enough with him on board and with Blind Obedience entering the scene as tech against us, he becomes worse. I feel like he belongs in the devotion lists, which I feel are quite inferior to GR Midrange.
It feels like Kibler is discovering GR for the first time after coming off Jund. I know he was there before, but it seems like a lot of the decisions are those ones that seem really good when the deck feels so much better when you free up the mana constraints just a little rather than decisions that are actually really good. Xenagod, is still pretty hard to line up on timing without taking advantage of Devotion as you say. The reason he wants hasty Polukranos vs Hasty Dragon is purely a curve concern. 4/4 haste for 5 is slightly under the power level he wants. He's probably picturing T3 Polukranos (and every turn after that). I think it's optimistic either way. I found when playing Exava in some Jund lists the one casting cost was a world of difference in say a Control matchup. But we're talking about improving a creature that isn't already good there, when we already have good creature. Fanatic would be fine if it did what you wanted instead of what you didn't want. If the ability was like Unleash we'd probably have room for it. The problem is where you want a 3/3 haster (like against removal based slower deck) they will just make it a 4/4 and deal with it in good time. Against aggro it will probably be a 3/3 haste. That doesn't necessarily have to be the worst though. Having also spent a lot of time with Dreg Mangler, I'd take it in GR, but Loxodon Smiter not so much. I mean it's more like a hard cast Ghor Clan. At 3 that's a lot less awkward, but this card will never be what you want.
I see merit in being more aggressive but I mean what do you put in those trimmed Caryatid/Courser slots?.. Jund lists tend to stick in more removal, or 4 cmc planeswalkers. Does GR do the same? I'm not sure there is much that is actually worth playing lower of the curve. Generally we just cut them to play more expensive spells anyway, which makes me think that maybe there is some merit just in the consistency alone. I've definitely felt I've played games where I've drawn into nothing relevant early but these cards help you purely on cmc to escape getting too locked into the one for one game T4-T5.. Maybe there are better earlier options. I agree completely these options make playing Ghor Clan and especially Flesh/Blood less worth it or at the very least a bit more awkward. But I think it's a lot of contributing factors, not just the amount of 'air' so to speak. Part of it is the threats you actually end up slamming down are a bit less impressive than they could be after all that investment. You wouldn't mind that air if it gave consistency that when you actually play out your threats they all didn't just get taken out like nothing. In world where those expensive threats are better at swinging the game, Ghor Clan becomes less awkward simply on the merit that you can more easily force damned if they do/ damned if they don't scenarios. Cutting too much (not that I'm saying it's too much) of the sort of building do nothing cards equally makes the deck less capable of maintaining initiative if they aren't replaced on the same place in the curve. Now if we could curve down and had other 2 or 3 drops worth playing, or more 1 mana acceleration it's a much different ballgame. But right now it's a lot of trading one type of awkward for another..
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I'm running almost similar to Kamahl, the Fallen's list, except that I tried to fit in 3 Witchstalker and Flesh // Blood over Mizzium Mortars. Another card I was testing whether suitable or not is Aspect of Hydra. It sounds like a weird card to be in but most of the time it is effective. 1CMC for at least a +4/+4 seems alright.
I went 5-3(11 round open :/) before dropping due to not being able to money and had an 8 hour drive ahead of me back home.
I lost to
Esper Control
Mono Black Control
R/w Burn
The Esper matchup I kept a kept a slightly slow hand game 1 where my first play was Domri Rade which he had the syncopate for 1 for. That sorta dictated the flow of the game. Game 2 I brought in burning earth(Was trying it out today since I expected more 3 color decks). I played 2 burning earths, he played an archangel of thune, and I had no action what so ever, at all.
The Monoblack matchup was close except game 1 where I keep a 2 lander on the draw with a temple. The hand had scooze and mono-4drops so if I hit 2 lands or 1 and a dork the hand is really powerful. He went turn 1 thoughtseize, turn 2 pack rat. I never drew another land all game. Game 2 I come out swinging and he cant really keep up with me at all. Game 3 he curves out amazingly and the nightveil trolls me hard, getting him Xenagos, chandra, and lands that i needed.
The R/w bun matchup I didnt draw much games 2 and 3. Game 2 he had a skullcrack all 3 times I went to gain life with courser and game 3 I mull to 5 and cant really do much for his full grip of burn. Game 1 was a stomping that started with a turn 3 polukranos to his satyr firedrinker.
SCAVENGING OOZE!!!!!!!!
Holy crap this guy was the literal bee's knees almost all day long. I only played him early one game where he didnt do anything. But that guy got me out of multiple jams. I played 2 main and 0 in the sideboard. Im almost thinking of running a 3rd in the sideboard. The sideboard one may be dictated by if the reanimator and dredge decks pick up.
Anger of the Gods
This was a complete blowout against monoblue. That was really the only creature based "aggro" deck that I played against so I have limited results but in a matchup that I hate, it won me the game.
Chandra, the Pyromaster
Everytime I played her i felt good about life. She does literally everything we want to be doing.
Domri Rade
I need not say anything that hasnt already been said on this amazing walker
Boon Satyr
In the matches where biggest creature wins, this guy is a complete house. Not sure if the one in the boad will stick but it is amazing.
Cards that are on the chopping block;
1x Xenagod
I felt like he was a little win-more when I did play him. He may be needed though. He is currently the softest card in the maindeck.
2x Burning Earth
The card straight up didnt do anything all day. Even when I played it against the 5 color deck. I rather just have a threat. The card severally underpreformed for me.
2x Unravel the AEther
This card didnt under preform but im not sure if it should be destructive reverly or unravel. With anger in the board the monoblue matchup is a lot better.
1x Boon Satyr(sideboard)
It preformed nicely, just not 100% sure its needed in the board at all. May be better as a card for the burn matchup which I have none of really.
Actually esper is favorable. I just overestimated burning earth, and I took out all my mortars and he brought in angels.
In my playtest group we dont side angels in esper so I was ill prepared for it and it blew me out. My hand was also lack luster. Game 1 was a good game, he just drew amazingly compared to my decent draw.
I also generally win against mono-black. Game 1 I got stuck on two lands after a somewhat sketchy keep and never drew another land ever.
But the 3 mutavaults never hurt me. I didnt use them that much so it could likely just be 2 muta's and another basic. But I havent had any issues. Almost wasnt able to cast anger of the gods once because of them but Crayatid had my back.
The R/w burn deck does feel like a bad matchup to some degree. We have to start flying out the gates against them.
I think for the sideboard I like combo of 6 total between mortars and flesh//blood, however you want to make it in the total 75. Also I think revelry is where we want to be, destroying and damaging is often enough to get there, and if their god is online then we aren't doing a good job in our role IMO. Otherwise, I have been super happy main board scooze also running 3 currently. especially useful in the jund mirror, and the recently popular GB dredge. I think mistcutter is a 4-of, and I've been bringing it in for more than control/mono blue and it has been doing work. Another thing to ramp into, and a hasty threat isn't to be underestimated. Then comes the problem cards of elspeth and desecration demon. I think you need arbor colossus or plummet, and some way to deal damage to elspeth either clan defiance, or maybe lightning strike. Not sure. Otherwise I have mixed feelings about burning earth as well, not sure if it deserves a spot still.
I consider between 2 or 3 slots for Fanatic of Xenagos or Courser of Kruphix. Xenagos seems more offensive and better in a faster Zoo build and Kruphix seems more defensive and for Midrange.
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GR needs incremental advantages over the course of the game. They make it seem like Courser is never turned sideways, which is not true. The GR strategy is pretty close to all in outside of Courser and Courser gives you some breathing space as the game goes on.
Like I have said a number of times, I side this card out a lot, along with Sylvan Caryatid because they are slow and as they stated in the video, you want to try and avoid slow cards most of the time. But I think these are necessary evils. Even though I side them out in almost every match, having them to flex when I am on the draw or when I am on the play is a big deal.
Take the Esper Humans match for example. Courser and Caryatid are cards I side out on the play, but absolutely leave in on the draw where those small advantages that are slow, still allow you to progress in many ways as the game goes on.
I like the idea of Ruric Thar in the main. He's so strong against control and MBD, and we see those a lot.
I like Skullcrack vs Sphinx's because of the enormous swing in life. In games that go long, Courser and the PW's often give us as much card advantage as the opponent. We have no way to STOP Sphinx's, so I'd rather just push through their CA. Skullcrack is also great against Kiora, and I've been seeing a lot of her at my LGS.
It seems very few lists include Skullcrack, though. Am I over-valuing it? What would you run instead?
Burning Earth.
I have only changed the SB. My 15 card side looks like this
4x Mistcutter Hydra
2x Burning Earth
3x Destructive Revelry
1x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1X Garruk, Caller of Beasts
2x Clan Defiance
2x Flesh // Blood
I do not run Xenogod because he is overrated. I tried him, but if you are top decking he is terrible, Mystics are terrible, Caryatids are terrible and Courser is really at the bottom of the good. Turning on Devotion is something you only get when you are already ahead and there are so many times I find myself in top deck mode and I just want a way out of it. This guy is not a way out of it, Garruk is. People seem to like this card and I cannot understand why exactly, he has always been terrible for me.
The only god I ever really care about is Thassa, and that match is fading for the most part and it leaves me caring more about UW and Esper now which makes the extra damage more relevant. You are now getting 6 targets after board in the control match with Blind Obedience coming in and the extra damage goes a long ways when you are trying to stick a Burning Earth or beat in with haste creatures. The tucking of a god just does not seem relevant anymore with Mono Blue as weak as it is and the Uw version is slower which makes everything else you have better and Thassa less threatening anyways.
As for other gods, you should be having your opponent at 0 or at least threatening to put them out of the game by the time a god is actually active with devotion. Dragon, Hydra, Ruric, and Flesh // Blood should be enough to take care of those things. In the event it is not, you should have Mizzium Mortars still lurking in your deck if they are creature based devotion... if not, why are they still alive?
Basically, you play a slower incremental game in every game 1 and in most games 2 and 3 you just overwhelm them with aggression. Aggro decks to not exist in the format and as a result, switching gears for games 2 and 3 do a really good job of exploiting the fact that decks are not built to play the aggressive game and the ones that are, burn out by the time Dragons and Ruric Thar are about to come online. Sure, you will still run into games where you lose but you can't do much about an opponent outdrawing you.
I played a game in an IQ against mono black where my Domri Rade came out turn 2, drew me 8 monsters in a row (3 dragons, 2 Polukranos, 1 Ruric Thar, 2 Mistcutter Hydra) and I still lost the game because his Underworld Connection drew him 8 removal spells on top of the ones that were from his natural draws. He was at 2 and had exhausted practically every single removal spell in his deck without really seeing that many cards. Sometimes it just happens and you can't do much about it, but I would be shocked if he ever managed to have another match against me pan out like that.
The deck really does not need to get big and splashy, in fact I think it needs to do the opposite.
Clan Defiance is generally a Fireball. You use it for late game reach. It is handy against Esper Humans too, but generally it is either used as spot removal or late game reach. This card is probably the slot you can mess with in the SB as it is really only there to help me deal with Elspeth. There may be better options, but I like the late game reach it has against Mono Black and UW Control
I'm running 2 mortars, 1 blood, 1 unravel in the main. Last FNM I swapped my 3rd mortars for 1 fall of the hammer. I also run 1 blood, 1 mortars and 1 unravel in the side.
Blood isn't there as creature removal generally, it's there as opponent removal. It's something that gets sided out vs monoblack, b/w midrange as you opponent can answer it at instant speed.
The 1 Fall of the hammer is an instant speed slightly worse version of blood because it only targets a creature, but can be used in response to removal. It's only a one of, and I've only cast it once, using a mystic to take out a young pyromancer.
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Polukranos, World Eater
2 Xenagos, God of Revels
4 Domri Rade
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
Lands (23)
8 Forest
5 Mountain
2 Mutavault
4 Stomping Ground
4 Temple of Abandon
Spells (3)
3 Mizzium Mortars
4 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Gruul Charm
2 Shock
1 Hammer of Purphoros
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Mizzium Mortars
1 Mutavault
He goes on to say that he was running 1 Ruric Thar in the MB and 1 SB for some time, but it was cut because he wanted to lower his curve and Max out the SB with 4 Mistcutter Hydra.
Here is what else he felt like touching on:
I honestly am unsure how I feel about his list.
I like that he has gone up a Scavenging Ooze, but I am not a fan of maxing out on Courser of Kruphix and Sylvan Caryatd (surprise surprise!). I feel like the deck needs to be more aggressive, and that notion was also covered by SCG in their Above the Curve video. Going big is great and all, but spot removal is this decks weakness. It can play around Sweepers fairly well, but cheap and timely spot removal will just cut you down and being more aggressive let's you keep pressure on while being more opportunistic with combat tricks like Ghor-Clan Rampager and Flesh // Blood. Going big works better in a format where removal is not at a cheap premium and so vastly available so it seems interesting that he would like to put the "faster" part of the deck into casting big and slow creatures sooner, rather than casting small and quick creatures over and over.
What I really found interesting about his article, is that he says Hammer is great for a hasty Polukranos yet he finds Stormbreath Dragon weak in the Mono Black match. If you like hasty creatures that take advantage of combat windows, taking a ground pounder that has no trample over a flying dragon just seems bizarre to me. Fanatic of Xenagos is an interesting card that he mentions near the end of the article and while I love me a 4/4 hast creature, the amount of spot removal in the format makes this guy hard to work with in many ways because he is not really a big creature and he is not really a small creature either, which means against Aggro they just swing past him and are capable of racing and against control he really only get's haste when they plan on killing him that turn... let's be honest Loxodon Smiter is a good card in a tough environment and this guy is not much different. I would like to find a match where I could effectively sneak this guy in out of the board, but the SB slots seem better than this guy no matter how you really look at it.
Xenagos, God of Revels is another card I am uneasy with these days. People like Brad Nelson are also dropping this guy to make the deck more aggressive and I can only assume that is because your small top deck creatures just do not do enough with him on board and with Blind Obedience entering the scene as tech against us, he becomes worse. I feel like he belongs in the devotion lists, which I feel are quite inferior to GR Midrange.
22 lands
No mutavaults
Only 3 Caryatids
3 Scoozies
10 monsters
(one arbor collosus and one Polis Crusher)
One god and two reveler
The rest is pretty stock
I also run two Clan Defiance in my side
(I'd post the list but I am on my phone)
After playing the conservative lists for awhile, I felt that a list like the one posted above is just not threat heavy, and I decided to cut every card I felt I had too much of. The resulting deck definitely plays just as consistently, I suppose I mulligan more often, but I win more games on mulligan hands as well. Going lower on the curve in my experience is a mistake. I played roughly 20 matches with Boon Satyr in that slot and didn't get good results.
I like fanatic as well, but even versus mono black he is a bile blight or blocked.
I had some questions regarding how aggressively to mulligan after sideboard, so I always want to have one of the sideboard cards in my starting hand? I've always been confused about that.
Regarding kiblers article, I got to meet him and chat a bit this weekend about RG and we definitely agreed that hasty threats were the way to go, but not sure how to do it. I think rg is positioned well, as more consistent than jund but more reliable and consistently more powerful than naya or jund. just need a way to deal with a couple problem cards. I also concur especially after this weekend that there are a lot of blind obedience and garruk over xenagod is a solid choice. I am also and have always been a fan of running 3 caryatid (and now 3 courser) over the full 4 and I'm not sure why people are so stuck on 4. *shrug* Anyway thanks for the feedback beforehand!
I ended up playing Bw Devotion and did not do so hot.
Desecration Demon and Elspeth are easily the hardest cards to deal with, but not impossible. Demon is a card you really just need to play smarter combat steps than your opponent and you can just push past him when you are on the offense. Certainly not the easiest thing, but quite doable. Elspeth on the other hand is pretty much just game over unless you can resolve a Flesh // Blood to kill her... you just have to be able to race her or apply enough pressure to prevent them resolving her efficiently. Things like Burning Earth are quite good at this and Destructive Revelry can shoot her back for 2 if it comes up and matters.
With your opening hand, the SB cards matter less than the speed of your start. You are looking to keep hands that apply pressure. Cards like Pithing Needle, and Destructive Reverly are cards I would much rather draw than start with, however if you are in a control match and open with Burning Earth and a Destructive Revelry, you can be in pretty good shape. If you are trimming the slow things like Caryatid and Courser of Kruphix, you should also understand that whatever you draw after your opening, generally has pressure behind it and a low curve to support it so you can get away with some loose hands fairly often. Your opener needs to be able to command what your opponent does on their turn and do it from turn 2 or 3. Early Mistcutter for 2 can build up into a Verdict allowing you to resolve a burning Earth at which point (if properly backed up with Revelry) just wins the game regardless of almost anything that can happen.
You are going to have things die, don't get greedy and try to keep them all. Instead you just need to make smart trades. 2 small Mistcutters and a Elvish Mystic is certainly worth resolving a Burning Earth in most cases, for obvious reasons. If the game starts going late and you cannot push extra damage through to kill them, sandbagging a Rampager Blood Rush is probably better than trying to get the damage through only to have an Elspeth resolve on you.
If Desecration Demon and Elspeth are harder for you to play around and you feel you want extra insurance, you can just drop 2 Clan Defiance from the board and run something like Plummet or Pithing Needle to deal with them. Elspeth is generally harder to deal with than Desecration Demon in my experience and that is why I went with Clan Defiance, because it can deal damage to Elspeth and has other applications in the event I am not starting down an Elspeth.
It feels like Kibler is discovering GR for the first time after coming off Jund. I know he was there before, but it seems like a lot of the decisions are those ones that seem really good when the deck feels so much better when you free up the mana constraints just a little rather than decisions that are actually really good. Xenagod, is still pretty hard to line up on timing without taking advantage of Devotion as you say. The reason he wants hasty Polukranos vs Hasty Dragon is purely a curve concern. 4/4 haste for 5 is slightly under the power level he wants. He's probably picturing T3 Polukranos (and every turn after that). I think it's optimistic either way. I found when playing Exava in some Jund lists the one casting cost was a world of difference in say a Control matchup. But we're talking about improving a creature that isn't already good there, when we already have good creature. Fanatic would be fine if it did what you wanted instead of what you didn't want. If the ability was like Unleash we'd probably have room for it. The problem is where you want a 3/3 haster (like against removal based slower deck) they will just make it a 4/4 and deal with it in good time. Against aggro it will probably be a 3/3 haste. That doesn't necessarily have to be the worst though. Having also spent a lot of time with Dreg Mangler, I'd take it in GR, but Loxodon Smiter not so much. I mean it's more like a hard cast Ghor Clan. At 3 that's a lot less awkward, but this card will never be what you want.
I see merit in being more aggressive but I mean what do you put in those trimmed Caryatid/Courser slots?.. Jund lists tend to stick in more removal, or 4 cmc planeswalkers. Does GR do the same? I'm not sure there is much that is actually worth playing lower of the curve. Generally we just cut them to play more expensive spells anyway, which makes me think that maybe there is some merit just in the consistency alone. I've definitely felt I've played games where I've drawn into nothing relevant early but these cards help you purely on cmc to escape getting too locked into the one for one game T4-T5.. Maybe there are better earlier options. I agree completely these options make playing Ghor Clan and especially Flesh/Blood less worth it or at the very least a bit more awkward. But I think it's a lot of contributing factors, not just the amount of 'air' so to speak. Part of it is the threats you actually end up slamming down are a bit less impressive than they could be after all that investment. You wouldn't mind that air if it gave consistency that when you actually play out your threats they all didn't just get taken out like nothing. In world where those expensive threats are better at swinging the game, Ghor Clan becomes less awkward simply on the merit that you can more easily force damned if they do/ damned if they don't scenarios. Cutting too much (not that I'm saying it's too much) of the sort of building do nothing cards equally makes the deck less capable of maintaining initiative if they aren't replaced on the same place in the curve. Now if we could curve down and had other 2 or 3 drops worth playing, or more 1 mana acceleration it's a much different ballgame. But right now it's a lot of trading one type of awkward for another..
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
4 Mountains
4 Stomping Grounds
4 Temple of Abadon
3 Mutavault
4 Elvish Mystic
3 Slyvan Caryatid
3 Courser of Kruphix
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Polukranos
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Boon Satyr
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Xenagos, The Reveler
3 Mizzium Mortars
1 Boon Satyr
2 Burning Earth
2 Unravel the AEther
2 Anger the Gods
2 Arbor Colossus
4 Mistcutter Hydra
1 Cant remember(will post it later)
I went 5-3(11 round open :/) before dropping due to not being able to money and had an 8 hour drive ahead of me back home.
I lost to
Esper Control
Mono Black Control
R/w Burn
The Esper matchup I kept a kept a slightly slow hand game 1 where my first play was Domri Rade which he had the syncopate for 1 for. That sorta dictated the flow of the game. Game 2 I brought in burning earth(Was trying it out today since I expected more 3 color decks). I played 2 burning earths, he played an archangel of thune, and I had no action what so ever, at all.
The Monoblack matchup was close except game 1 where I keep a 2 lander on the draw with a temple. The hand had scooze and mono-4drops so if I hit 2 lands or 1 and a dork the hand is really powerful. He went turn 1 thoughtseize, turn 2 pack rat. I never drew another land all game. Game 2 I come out swinging and he cant really keep up with me at all. Game 3 he curves out amazingly and the nightveil trolls me hard, getting him Xenagos, chandra, and lands that i needed.
The R/w bun matchup I didnt draw much games 2 and 3. Game 2 he had a skullcrack all 3 times I went to gain life with courser and game 3 I mull to 5 and cant really do much for his full grip of burn. Game 1 was a stomping that started with a turn 3 polukranos to his satyr firedrinker.
The matches I won were
Round 1 - 5 color "Man-Mode" monsters
round 2 - GR Monsters
Round 5 - Jund Monsters
Round 6 - Mono-Blue
Round 7 - GB Dredge
Cards that popped out and outpreformed for me;
SCAVENGING OOZE!!!!!!!!
Holy crap this guy was the literal bee's knees almost all day long. I only played him early one game where he didnt do anything. But that guy got me out of multiple jams. I played 2 main and 0 in the sideboard. Im almost thinking of running a 3rd in the sideboard. The sideboard one may be dictated by if the reanimator and dredge decks pick up.
Anger of the Gods
This was a complete blowout against monoblue. That was really the only creature based "aggro" deck that I played against so I have limited results but in a matchup that I hate, it won me the game.
Chandra, the Pyromaster
Everytime I played her i felt good about life. She does literally everything we want to be doing.
Domri Rade
I need not say anything that hasnt already been said on this amazing walker
Boon Satyr
In the matches where biggest creature wins, this guy is a complete house. Not sure if the one in the boad will stick but it is amazing.
Cards that are on the chopping block;
1x Xenagod
I felt like he was a little win-more when I did play him. He may be needed though. He is currently the softest card in the maindeck.
2x Burning Earth
The card straight up didnt do anything all day. Even when I played it against the 5 color deck. I rather just have a threat. The card severally underpreformed for me.
2x Unravel the AEther
This card didnt under preform but im not sure if it should be destructive reverly or unravel. With anger in the board the monoblue matchup is a lot better.
1x Boon Satyr(sideboard)
It preformed nicely, just not 100% sure its needed in the board at all. May be better as a card for the burn matchup which I have none of really.
Standard:RWUJeskai WinsRWU
Modern:GWBMelira PodGWB
Legacy:WDeath & TaxesW
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
In my playtest group we dont side angels in esper so I was ill prepared for it and it blew me out. My hand was also lack luster. Game 1 was a good game, he just drew amazingly compared to my decent draw.
I also generally win against mono-black. Game 1 I got stuck on two lands after a somewhat sketchy keep and never drew another land ever.
But the 3 mutavaults never hurt me. I didnt use them that much so it could likely just be 2 muta's and another basic. But I havent had any issues. Almost wasnt able to cast anger of the gods once because of them but Crayatid had my back.
The R/w burn deck does feel like a bad matchup to some degree. We have to start flying out the gates against them.
Any idea for sideboard options?
Standard:RWUJeskai WinsRWU
Modern:GWBMelira PodGWB
Legacy:WDeath & TaxesW