While Knuckleblade is pretty freakin' awesome, I have already seen a major uptick in my win percentage both online and in paper by dropping the blue. It is also nice to not have to devote so many slots for mana dorks, with the list running only 4 Elvish Mystics to be able to get out a turn 2 Rabblemaster, Boon Satyr, or Fanatic.
While I do like how GRx is currently positioned, I recognized (like many of you) that the traditional 'monsters' plan of ramping to game-breaking four and five drops wasn't very well positioned a month or two ago when the metagame temporarily solidified (all Abzan Siege Rhinos, Mardu Crackling Dooms, and Jeskai Mantis Riders) that Polukranos, World Eater just isn't that great of a card anymore. It's the classic 'dies to removal' problem except it's even worse right now as it isn't impacting the board. I started trying to figure out how to get lower and even more aggressive - I really just wanted to build the best GRx Goblin Rabblemaster + Bow of Nylea deck which has been a favorite idea of mine since before KTK released.
While I think a deck like the one featured by Sam Pardee at Channel Fireball (and similar to John Bolt's top 4 deck from SCG Seattle or Logan Mize's Player's Championship deck) is another good way to get lower and even more aggressive, ...
I don't really have a lot of results as it's been a slow two months of competitive Magic for me, but I was hoping to put it out there and possibly get some feedback before heading to multiple events in the next month. I've been mostly lurking on here lately and know that a lot of the current posters may not remember me from GRx from previous iterations of Standard, so consider this post my welcome back ...
Hordeling Outburst - the three 1/1s were originally intended to be another three drop that made one-for-one removal look terrible; it ended up becoming a focal point of the deck by reinforcing usual suspects like Xenagos, the Reveler and even giving incentive to make other more interesting choices like Purphoros, Stoke the Flames and Treasure Cruise.
Purphoros, God of the Forge - I've tried as many as three copies, but I've trimmed a copy as it is one of several cards in the deck that is bad in multiples and doesn't really impact the game if you're behind. Generally, this red four-drop threat is even harder to remove than Ashcloud Phoenix and has good synergy with the rest of the deck.
Stormbreath Dragon - I tried a version with less land and no five drops, but the dragon is just too good at finishing games to ignore.
Magma Jet - this card may honestly be even more important to the early game than Elvish Mystic; the burn might remove an important early drop from the other side and Scry 2 is just incredibly powerful in this deck for setting up ridiculous turns or hunting for a finisher in the mid-to-late game. It also helps that there aren't as many Fleecemane Lion or Mantis Rider running around right now either to demand Lightning Strike, but Stoke the Flames can hopefully help pick off an early lion or mantis.
Lightning Strike - I've also tried 2 or 3 copies in the main when I was thinking of the deck as more of a burn deck. I also liked strike better when I was also trying a couple copies of Hornet Nest in the main as nest helps extract value from strike in some match-ups where strike by itself is fairly mediocre.
Treasure Cruise - When I was configuring the deck with a lot of burn spells, I realized using cruise to reload could also work in Standard. When there is only two copies, I'll find myself wanting to draw one; three copies increases the chance of drawing too many early. The third copy has been the third Purphoros, God of the Forge or another key spell at times.
Xenagos, the Reveler - unlike Monsters decks, the ultimate here probably isn't game winning as there isn't a high density of creature threats - the +1 can easily take over a game by allowing you to play two or three spells per turn or hardcast Treasure Cruise
Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker - part 5th Stormbreath Dragon, part 5th Stoke the Flames, part Treasure Cruise ... I think Sarkhan is actually really good in this deck and have considered running the second copy in the main and moving the fourth dragon to the board or trying to get away with six five-drops
Bow of Nylea - all four modes are theoretically relevant - the life gain has let me out-grind an opponent, the 2 damage to a flyer has shot down a Hushwing Gryff flashed in to stifle a Purphoros trigger, the +1/+1 counter lets Goblin Rabblemaster attack into Courser of Kruphix, and you could even move key cards from your graveyard back into your deck now that we have fetchlands - I had been running a second copy back when most of the metagame was interested in blocking and definitely still would be if it were not Legendary or more useful when you are behind on board
Mana Confluence - three can be painful but also lets you Elvish Mystic on turn 1 into Hordeling Outburst on turn 2 - the third copy and some of the five drops can be taken out if you are not the beatdown in a match-up
Yavimaya Coast - some number of Forest are swapped for this card to facilitate the blue splash - it is a base red deck; if I was willing to cut Elvish Mystic and the possibility of turn 2 Goblin Rabblemaster, we would not even need very many sources of green mana
Frontier Bivouac & Temple of Abandon - eight tapped lands is too many but mana fixing and Scry 1 are both very valuable to the deck ... I started with 4 Temple and 2 tri-lands, but then traded the fourth Yavimaya Coast and a Shivan Reef for more tri-lands as eight is also probably too many pain-lands
Hornet Nest - two copies were fine in the main especially with doubling the damage from a burn spell with a Purphoros, God of the Forge or letting you ping yourself from Chandra, Pyromaster for fun and profit - I moved them back to the sideboard to keep the maindeck focused on aggression instead of prolonging the game; though I did enjoy the hoops it would force some opponents to jump through in game 1
Arc Lightning - good answer to opposing tokens; plays much better with my own plan than Anger of the Gods - depending on how many opposing Hordeling Outburst are in the metagame, the two Lightning Strike in the sideboard could fairly easily become additional copies
Negate - was running three copies, but trimmed one for a Temur Charm - started off in the sideboard as a way to keep common opposing sideboard cards like Drown in Sorrow or Anger of the Gods from ruining the fun (those two cards are why these are NOT Disdainful Stroke) - Temur Charm represents a harder to cast soft counter is much better to reveal to Chandra, Pyromaster's zero ability though
Temur Charm - it's a charm; it is supposed to be okay at three things and great at none - the latest minor change to what has become a fairly stable sideboard - two copies of this give you access to more versatile but clunkier to cast versions of Bow of Nylea (make blocking harder mode), Negate (soft counter mode), and the Setessan Tactics on my Hornet Nest trick (fight mode) shouldn't be forgotten either
Destructive Revelry & Back to Nature - enchantments are everywhere; I feel like there are enough decks with a Constellation sub-theme to warrant at least one copy (maybe more?) being a sweeper rather than pinpoint
Steam Augury - originally tried this to complement Treasure Cruise as the pile you aren't given is a lot of fuel for delve - the deck has too many options at four mana and doesn't really want to hold up a lot of mana during the opponent's turn
Barrage of Boulders - even without always turning on ferocious, this card seemed like a reasonable use of a couple sideboard slots for a while
Fated Conflagration - the only other notable card that I can recall trying but haven't mentioned - I had a couple of these floating around in the sideboard for a while
my first draft of this deck used about half of the sideboard as some copies of traditional monsters cards that were left out here; the idea was to present a lot of tokens and burn game 1 to make cards like Hero's Downfall and Crackling Doom look less appealing and then bring in a couple Polukranos, World Eater for games 2/3 but quickly realized I still like synergy in the face of hate rather than mind games
I think if you want the token/burn package, you should really just be playing the Jeskai decks because they can do it much better. I think G/R wants to beat down with efficient threats every turn of the game. I don't think there is another deck in the format that can do that as well as G/R can. If you go with the token/burn strategy, then I think you are just playing a weaker version of Jeskai Tokens.
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I actively dislike your blue splash, as I feel that T-Cruise is often an awkward draw. I also disliked Mystic/Outburst when I played the two together for a short time. They work very awkwardly together and, even though both are powerful, they get in each other's way enough to warrant excluding one or the other. Hordeling Outburst and Stoke the Flames feels good in pretty much any deck -- so I definitely think that the duo are worth considering in monsters decks.
I think if you want the token/burn package, you should really just be playing the Jeskai decks because they can do it much better. I think G/R wants to beat down with efficient threats every turn of the game. I don't think there is another deck in the format that can do that as well as G/R can. If you go with the token/burn strategy, then I think you are just playing a weaker version of Jeskai Tokens.
This is probably the wrong way to think about this. Trying to cubby-hole a deck doesn't breed innovation and can lead to stagnification of lists. There was a weekend, Schied's GP winning monsters weekend, when big monsters was the right deck. However, as other decks went bigger, big monsters fell in viability. Little monsters had been played for a bit at the beginning of the format (4-0'd some DE) but didn't get real press until recently. If we got stuck into thinking that big monsters was the "way to think about GR monsters" and that all others were bad versions of other decks, then we'd be stuck with dated lists and with lists that had not chance of handling the new decks in the format.
Tokens/burn with green gives you access to Xenagos, who when paired with Purphoros and Hordeling Outburst is quite the force. You can t3 outburst, t4 xenagos, uptick, cast a three drop which is a huge tempo swing. Xenagos in a deck like this is a house. Green in a tokens strategy is viable and hasn't been explored deeply. Getting people in a Purphorus soft-lock sounds spicy.
Whether or not it is more or less viable than Jeskai Tokens is unclear as the deck hasn't been entirely fleshed out.
I guess yes you are right in that if no one tries to experiment we will end up with Mono Black devotion and U/W Control all over again(not to say people didn't experiment, more just a comparison to a recent time where Standard was very stagnant). I guess this didn't come off, but I'm always encouraging about trying out new builds because there could be something that was not evaluated correctly. The better answer I can offer is if the brewer thinks it's worth pursuing then pursue it, personally I don't think the brew is worth pursuing so that is why I answered the way I did. It probably did sound a little too dismissive, so this is probably the better answer xD.
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If you're going to play Hordeling Outburst, your list should be running cards like Stoke the Flames etc. Your deck should look similar to mootown's or Lowry's from a month or two ago. Otherwise you're just playing a bunch of 1/1s that don't have synergy in your deck outside of Purphoros. There is a lot of hate for x/1s in this format with Arc Lightnings, Bile Blights, and Doomwake Giants floating around.
I'm running Matt Costa's version (which is what Sam Pardee used on his latest videos). It's the one I feel most comfortable with and fits my style well. I think I'll keep it the way it was for now. Not a lot can handle it right now, and I like that.
I've had some trouble with token type deck, so I swapped two Magma Sprays for two Arc Lightnings (in the side).
My only worry with switching to a more token strategy is that we take a lot of splash damage in terms of sideboard hate with Jeskai Tokens being so popular. It can also turn on their enchantment hate like Erase if you play the Purphoros package.
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My only worry with switching to a more token strategy is that we take a lot of splash damage in terms of sideboard hate with Jeskai Tokens being so popular. It can also turn on their enchantment hate like Erase if you play the Purphoros package.
I was worried about incidental hate due to the popularity of Jeskai Tokens as well, but it's a Goblin Rabblemaster deck - Bile Blight, Anger of the Gods, Drown in Sorrow might be coming in against you anyway. The part I liked about setting this deck up is that some of the time you aren't even all that concerned about losing the tokens as long as you've put them into play. I was much less concerned with incidental enchantment hate.
I finalized a Naya Tokens list to play in what ended up being a very small PPTQ (SCG Columbus was only a few hours drive away?) and ended up sneaking into the top 8 but lost in the top 4. I decided to go with Naya as it seemed to be the best splash for working around Siege Rhino which continued to be an issue in 'testing' (i.e. kitchen table Magic against my son). Credit is also due to Sam Pardee for both the RG video and an earlier RW video that informed some of my decision making.
I went 3-2 in the Swiss - my losses were to the players who ended up splitting in the finals. One was on Sultai Reanimator and he absolutely demolished me; 3 Erase may not be enough cards specific for this match up, but I don't recall my draws being all that spectacular. The other loss in the Swiss and semifinal was much more interesting games against Abzan Aggro that ultimately may have boiled down to minor (or even major) misplays on my part. His main deck included 3-4 copies of Bile Blight and 0 Hero's Downfall as he had out for tokens-based strategies. My wins in the swiss were against Abzan Midrange, a different Abzan Aggro pilot, and a Sultai Whip deck that also had Siege Rhino in it. Clearly, I only did okay against the field I was expecting to have to slog through - my top 8 win against UW Control was like a breath of fresh air at that point and included the only game all day where I pretty much completely rode Purphoros, God of the Forge to victory.
Changes I would strongly consider making in this list before trying it again or recommending it to others:
Elvish Mystic - I debated playing this version with a little more green or a version with a little more white that ran 3 Raise the Alarm instead - let's just say I'm strongly biased towards playing Elves on turn 1 whenever possible, so I should have found room for the 4th copy by shaving a burn spell that costs two mana - in a slower metagame, the 3rd Mana Confluence would totally be worth it for the ability to Hordeling Outburst on turn 2
Magma Jet - I quickly noticed the scry 2 is not as valuable here as in the splash blue version I have been playing, and I sided them out a lot against the decks I was playing today - it is entirely possible that I should have shaved two for another elf as amentioned above and the fourth Lightning Strike or 3rd Chained to the Rocks in the main - however, it is a fine game 1 card as it helps you find what you want against opponents and is easily replaced with low cost sideboard cards you want to draw in games 2 and 3
Hornet Nest - a lot of games on the draw today I was bringing these in for Goblin Rabblemaster and since the game was slowing down anyway to convert to more of a turtle up until Stormbreath Dragon, Purphoros, or planeswalkers take over the game - it seemed bad but correct ...
Chained to the Rocks, Glare of Heresy, Erase - often felt like Swords to Plowshares without the lifegain today - the ability to play one of these or a burn spell and a threat of your own on the same turn felt silly - this version is less explosive perhaps than the splash blue version, but it feels more able to win a grindy midrange match - I did glance longingly at all the cards in my graveyard a couple times today; Murderous Cut could provide a similar tempo play
Stormbreath Dragon - Wingmate Roc works better with the overall idea of the deck (as it makes removal look bad, double triggers Purphoros, plays nice with Elspeth, but dragon is just so good right now ... I don't think the mana can support roc or Brimaz, King of Oreskos as configured; stick with the double-red threat over the double-white token makers. I probably did as well as I did today on the back of dragon forcing players into awkward positions when they had already used a Hero's Downfall on a Goblin Rabblemaster or a planeswalker.
So, am I crazy for running Hornet Nest in the maindeck? It's pretty darn cute when coupled with 4 Arc Lightning, 4 Crater's Claws, and 2 Chandra, Pyromaster (even if it burns you for one to make a bee). It's kind of a more true midrange build with no Boon Satyr or Fanatic of Xenagos, so I feel like I have time to pillow fort behind the nest on turns 2/3.
I'm not sure this will work but playing Gruul Aggro and swap to Gruul Tokens from sideboard seems like a good plan. One of the things you guys didn't mention was Chord of Calling. I'd replace the card over Crater's Claws slot. I played Gruul Chord 2-3 times last couple of weeks and it serves me well. I didn't run Hordeling Outburst and it could have been better if I did. With Hornet Nest main deck and majorities are aggros and midranges, the deck played defensively and wins with Purphoros's damage. I only lost to Esper Control and UB Control since I'm lacking of attacking dudes. So, Gruul Aggro to Gruul Chord could work in my opinion. Call for Hornet Queen is the best thing could happen with Purphoros in play.
Brian Kibler too switch to Gruul Aggro from his Temur Aggro. He finished 20th with 12-3 record in GP Denver. He lost to Jeskai Tokens, Abzan Aggro and to Sam Black's RW Tokens. Still waiting for his SCG article but I'm guessing big reason behind it was Temur's mana intensive and the amount damage to self from the painlands and fetches is just ridiculous. I once played I think against Mardu Tokens, and I'm on attacking mode but my lands hurt me about 13 damage from 2 Mana Confluence, fetches and painlands. My opponent only played Goblin Rabblemaster on turn 3 but immediately killed by Lightning Strike. I think few turns later I lost (so close) to Lightning Strike and Stoke the Flames.
I once played I think against Mardu Tokens, and I'm on attacking mode but my lands hurt me about 13 damage from 2 Mana Confluence, fetches and painlands.
Maybe it's just me, but Mana Confluence seems really over the top with a 2 color mana base and ample fixing between temples, gainlands, fetchlands, and potentially Rattleclaw Mystic. I wouldn't mind if Karplusan Forest was standard legal, since you can use it for colorless after the first couple turns, but sadly, it's not around.
I LOVE the Elf/Nest/Outburst/Stoke/Rabblemaster/Purphoros/Chord/Queen backbone that you're talking about. Going extra EXTRA wide sounds like a lot of fun for a casual FNM deck, but Doomwake Giant would basically cause an auto-scoop, and Whip decks are still all the rage right now.
I once played I think against Mardu Tokens, and I'm on attacking mode but my lands hurt me about 13 damage from 2 Mana Confluence, fetches and painlands.
Maybe it's just me, but Mana Confluence seems really over the top with a 2 color mana base and ample fixing between temples, gainlands, fetchlands, and potentially Rattleclaw Mystic. I wouldn't mind if Karplusan Forest was standard legal, since you can use it for colorless after the first couple turns, but sadly, it's not around.
I LOVE the Elf/Nest/Outburst/Stoke/Rabblemaster/Purphoros/Chord/Queen backbone that you're talking about. Going extra EXTRA wide sounds like a lot of fun for a casual FNM deck, but Doomwake Giant would basically cause an auto-scoop, and Whip decks are still all the rage right now.
For the aggro decks, you mana is not the best. With 24 sources you have 8 duals with 16 basics. Depending on how you sort things, this gives you 16 (+/- depending on how you count fetches) sources of a single color of mana. Yet, you have to cast double red on turn 4 and double green on turn 3. If you run Mana Confluence, you up your count to 18 a piece, which is much better.
I would not run gainlands, unless you're a slower monsters build, as they can really get in the way of getting your opponent dead, a window for which your first three turns are crucial and having two tapped lands in your opener can be a real bummer.
However, the pain is real and I definitely hurt myself considerably with Mana Confluence this weekend. If you have a lot of Courser in your meta, I cannot reccomend the RG Monsters build enough. If not, then maybe it's not for you.
Just a question, because you guys are focused on the Ferocious mechanic, have you ever considered playing this combo,
Kind of an all in strategy, I feel like if you find yourself racing by just attacking into an opponent with barrage, you could also play Feed the Clan, but that's assuming they're not playing enough removal to keep you from attacking.
Just a question, because you guys are focused on the Ferocious mechanic, have you ever considered playing this combo,
Kind of an all in strategy, I feel like if you find yourself racing by just attacking into an opponent with barrage, you could also play Feed the Clan, but that's assuming they're not playing enough removal to keep you from attacking.
Too cutesy and dies to removal.
Purphoros is too cutesy and dies to Erase. Does nothing on his own.
Splashing white for Chain to the Rocks (with only 5 mountains lol) seems terrible.
The R/G list with almost zero removal main seems terrible. I already see far too many 2-3x stormbreath hands that need mulling. Now I can mull away Sarkhan too? And 4x Ashcloud as well? And am I just hoping they're not playing a removal heavy deck? Because it seems like that deck just loses to anyone who has more than 1 removal spell in their hand. I get that it has Rattleclaw to help boost these things out, but you are gambling that they won't just Jet or Arc or Lightning away your dorks. Or Drown away your whole team, leaving you with not enough lands to play fatties. Probably a meta call, I guess. Kibler's list doesn't seem so bad because he cut a Stormbreath and he's done an even split Polukranos/Ashcloud, but I have won far too many games by curving out and then drawing a Lightning Strike or Arc Lightning to end it on the spot. I still think Chandra is better main than Xenagos.
Why is everyone insisting on tokens. That is a step back, not a step forward for this deck. We're already soft to drown in sorrows/anger of the gods, and you want to lean in to that by taking out bigger butts and putting in 1/1s? Why? And dilute ferocious?
I've tweaked my own list to run 2x Polukranos main (great against token/aggro strats - they have to use two cards generally to kill him, if they ever manage to kill him). I am also happier with 2x Boon Satyr main, although I may bump it up to 3 in the current meta. It's just a great answer to sweeper heavy decks, and if they're dumb enough to side in enchantment hate after seeing it G1, all the better for me.
Just a question, because you guys are focused on the Ferocious mechanic, have you ever considered playing this combo,
Kind of an all in strategy, I feel like if you find yourself racing by just attacking into an opponent with barrage, you could also play Feed the Clan, but that's assuming they're not playing enough removal to keep you from attacking.
Too cutesy and dies to removal.
Purphoros is too cutesy and dies to Erase. Does nothing on his own.
Splashing white for Chain to the Rocks (with only 5 mountains lol) seems terrible.
The R/G list with almost zero removal main seems terrible. I already see far too many 2-3x stormbreath hands that need mulling. Now I can mull away Sarkhan too? And 4x Ashcloud as well? And am I just hoping they're not playing a removal heavy deck? Because it seems like that deck just loses to anyone who has more than 1 removal spell in their hand. I get that it has Rattleclaw to help boost these things out, but you are gambling that they won't just Jet or Arc or Lightning away your dorks. Or Drown away your whole team, leaving you with not enough lands to play fatties. Probably a meta call, I guess. Kibler's list doesn't seem so bad because he cut a Stormbreath and he's done an even split Polukranos/Ashcloud, but I have won far too many games by curving out and then drawing a Lightning Strike or Arc Lightning to end it on the spot. I still think Chandra is better main than Xenagos.
Why is everyone insisting on tokens. That is a step back, not a step forward for this deck. We're already soft to drown in sorrows/anger of the gods, and you want to lean in to that by taking out bigger butts and putting in 1/1s? Why? And dilute ferocious?
I've tweaked my own list to run 2x Polukranos main (great against token/aggro strats - they have to use two cards generally to kill him, if they ever manage to kill him). I am also happier with 2x Boon Satyr main, although I may bump it up to 3 in the current meta. It's just a great answer to sweeper heavy decks, and if they're dumb enough to side in enchantment hate after seeing it G1, all the better for me.
Hey, uh, I didn't mention anything about playing with a specific list, let alone white mana or tokens.
What I have here, what you quoted that I wrote was a suggestion regarding playing against tokens and other decks with a card that allows you to sweep tokens and swing unblocked.
I feel like Barrage with Ferocious by itself is good with these lists that run high power and low toughness cards like Boon Satyr, that want to get in for damage but will often lose in combat.
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The red mage lives by the variance and dies by the variance. May the variance be with you, always.
One thing im stumbling on is the proper time when to side in Chandra, I am looking at the card and the meta in my local GS but I just dont see when she should be viable or brought in, do people have a good idea when they use her? against what decks.
I'd be interested to see the tech on siding with the Matt Costa deck. As I took it to FNM last night and went 2-1 (We only do 3 rounds, it sucks I know) Beat Mardu Control and U/W Heroic, lost barely to Sultai Whip, couldnt get under fast enough before he came online with a top decked Drown. Placed 3rd of like 17.
One thing im stumbling on is the proper time when to side in Chandra, I am looking at the card and the meta in my local GS but I just dont see when she should be viable or brought in, do people have a good idea when they use her? against what decks.
If you're on 3 drop beat down (roughly Bolt's list), then Chandra is good against Courser decks. She's also good against tokens.
UBReanimatorBU
Commander/EDH
WUBrago, King EternalUW
GFreyalise, Llanowar's FuryG
While I think a deck like the one featured by Sam Pardee at Channel Fireball (and similar to John Bolt's top 4 deck from SCG Seattle or Logan Mize's Player's Championship deck) is another good way to get lower and even more aggressive, ...
3 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Heir of the Wilds
1 Boon Satyr
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Fanatic of Xenagos
4 Ashcloud Phoenix
4 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Stoke the Flames
4 Crater's Claws
6 Forest
6 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Temple of Abandon
2 Rugged Highlands
1 Mana Confluence
2 Hornet Nest
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
4 Magma Spray
2 Barrage of Boulders
2 Destructive Revelry
I've been focusing on the Hordeling Outburst + Stoke the Flames synergy more so than Fanatic of Xenagos + Crater's Claws in my tinkering. To be honest I was inspired in late October by Anthony Lowry to get quick/low and try other things ...
I don't really have a lot of results as it's been a slow two months of competitive Magic for me, but I was hoping to put it out there and possibly get some feedback before heading to multiple events in the next month. I've been mostly lurking on here lately and know that a lot of the current posters may not remember me from GRx from previous iterations of Standard, so consider this post my welcome back ...
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Purphoros, God of the Forge
4 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Hordeling Outburst
3 Treasure Cruise
4 Magma Jet
4 Stoke the Flames
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
2 Forest
4 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Temple of Abandon
4 Frontier Bivouac
3 Yavimaya Coast
3 Mana Confluence
3 Hornet Nest
1 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
2 Arc Lightning
2 Lightning Strike
2 Temur Charm
2 Negate
2 Destructive Revelry
1 Back to Nature
Hordeling Outburst - the three 1/1s were originally intended to be another three drop that made one-for-one removal look terrible; it ended up becoming a focal point of the deck by reinforcing usual suspects like Xenagos, the Reveler and even giving incentive to make other more interesting choices like Purphoros, Stoke the Flames and Treasure Cruise.
Purphoros, God of the Forge - I've tried as many as three copies, but I've trimmed a copy as it is one of several cards in the deck that is bad in multiples and doesn't really impact the game if you're behind. Generally, this red four-drop threat is even harder to remove than Ashcloud Phoenix and has good synergy with the rest of the deck.
Stormbreath Dragon - I tried a version with less land and no five drops, but the dragon is just too good at finishing games to ignore.
Magma Jet - this card may honestly be even more important to the early game than Elvish Mystic; the burn might remove an important early drop from the other side and Scry 2 is just incredibly powerful in this deck for setting up ridiculous turns or hunting for a finisher in the mid-to-late game. It also helps that there aren't as many Fleecemane Lion or Mantis Rider running around right now either to demand Lightning Strike, but Stoke the Flames can hopefully help pick off an early lion or mantis.
Lightning Strike - I've also tried 2 or 3 copies in the main when I was thinking of the deck as more of a burn deck. I also liked strike better when I was also trying a couple copies of Hornet Nest in the main as nest helps extract value from strike in some match-ups where strike by itself is fairly mediocre.
Treasure Cruise - When I was configuring the deck with a lot of burn spells, I realized using cruise to reload could also work in Standard. When there is only two copies, I'll find myself wanting to draw one; three copies increases the chance of drawing too many early. The third copy has been the third Purphoros, God of the Forge or another key spell at times.
Chandra, Pyromaster - unlike Monsters decks, the ultimate here should be game winning - three copies of Stoke the Flames or Hordeling Outburst with a Purphoros, God of the Forge in play is a lot of damage
Xenagos, the Reveler - unlike Monsters decks, the ultimate here probably isn't game winning as there isn't a high density of creature threats - the +1 can easily take over a game by allowing you to play two or three spells per turn or hardcast Treasure Cruise
Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker - part 5th Stormbreath Dragon, part 5th Stoke the Flames, part Treasure Cruise ... I think Sarkhan is actually really good in this deck and have considered running the second copy in the main and moving the fourth dragon to the board or trying to get away with six five-drops
Bow of Nylea - all four modes are theoretically relevant - the life gain has let me out-grind an opponent, the 2 damage to a flyer has shot down a Hushwing Gryff flashed in to stifle a Purphoros trigger, the +1/+1 counter lets Goblin Rabblemaster attack into Courser of Kruphix, and you could even move key cards from your graveyard back into your deck now that we have fetchlands - I had been running a second copy back when most of the metagame was interested in blocking and definitely still would be if it were not Legendary or more useful when you are behind on board
Mana Confluence - three can be painful but also lets you Elvish Mystic on turn 1 into Hordeling Outburst on turn 2 - the third copy and some of the five drops can be taken out if you are not the beatdown in a match-up
Yavimaya Coast - some number of Forest are swapped for this card to facilitate the blue splash - it is a base red deck; if I was willing to cut Elvish Mystic and the possibility of turn 2 Goblin Rabblemaster, we would not even need very many sources of green mana
Frontier Bivouac & Temple of Abandon - eight tapped lands is too many but mana fixing and Scry 1 are both very valuable to the deck ... I started with 4 Temple and 2 tri-lands, but then traded the fourth Yavimaya Coast and a Shivan Reef for more tri-lands as eight is also probably too many pain-lands
Hornet Nest - two copies were fine in the main especially with doubling the damage from a burn spell with a Purphoros, God of the Forge or letting you ping yourself from Chandra, Pyromaster for fun and profit - I moved them back to the sideboard to keep the maindeck focused on aggression instead of prolonging the game; though I did enjoy the hoops it would force some opponents to jump through in game 1
Arc Lightning - good answer to opposing tokens; plays much better with my own plan than Anger of the Gods - depending on how many opposing Hordeling Outburst are in the metagame, the two Lightning Strike in the sideboard could fairly easily become additional copies
Negate - was running three copies, but trimmed one for a Temur Charm - started off in the sideboard as a way to keep common opposing sideboard cards like Drown in Sorrow or Anger of the Gods from ruining the fun (those two cards are why these are NOT Disdainful Stroke) - Temur Charm represents a harder to cast soft counter is much better to reveal to Chandra, Pyromaster's zero ability though
Temur Charm - it's a charm; it is supposed to be okay at three things and great at none - the latest minor change to what has become a fairly stable sideboard - two copies of this give you access to more versatile but clunkier to cast versions of Bow of Nylea (make blocking harder mode), Negate (soft counter mode), and the Setessan Tactics on my Hornet Nest trick (fight mode) shouldn't be forgotten either
Destructive Revelry & Back to Nature - enchantments are everywhere; I feel like there are enough decks with a Constellation sub-theme to warrant at least one copy (maybe more?) being a sweeper rather than pinpoint
Steam Augury - originally tried this to complement Treasure Cruise as the pile you aren't given is a lot of fuel for delve - the deck has too many options at four mana and doesn't really want to hold up a lot of mana during the opponent's turn
Barrage of Boulders - even without always turning on ferocious, this card seemed like a reasonable use of a couple sideboard slots for a while
Fated Conflagration - the only other notable card that I can recall trying but haven't mentioned - I had a couple of these floating around in the sideboard for a while
splashing white: Naya Tokens would offer Raise the Alarm, Elspeth, Sun's Champion, and Chained to the Rocks as good options
my first draft of this deck used about half of the sideboard as some copies of traditional monsters cards that were left out here; the idea was to present a lot of tokens and burn game 1 to make cards like Hero's Downfall and Crackling Doom look less appealing and then bring in a couple Polukranos, World Eater for games 2/3 but quickly realized I still like synergy in the face of hate rather than mind games
What do you all think? Does choosing the token/burn package (Magma Jet, Hordeling Outburst, Stoke the Flames, Purphoros, God of the Forge) over the ferocious package (Heir of the Wilds, Fanatic of Xenagos, Crater's Claws, Ashcloud Phoenix) seem like an interesting variant worth pursuing to anyone else?
UBReanimatorBU
Commander/EDH
WUBrago, King EternalUW
GFreyalise, Llanowar's FuryG
I actively dislike your blue splash, as I feel that T-Cruise is often an awkward draw. I also disliked Mystic/Outburst when I played the two together for a short time. They work very awkwardly together and, even though both are powerful, they get in each other's way enough to warrant excluding one or the other. Hordeling Outburst and Stoke the Flames feels good in pretty much any deck -- so I definitely think that the duo are worth considering in monsters decks.
This is probably the wrong way to think about this. Trying to cubby-hole a deck doesn't breed innovation and can lead to stagnification of lists. There was a weekend, Schied's GP winning monsters weekend, when big monsters was the right deck. However, as other decks went bigger, big monsters fell in viability. Little monsters had been played for a bit at the beginning of the format (4-0'd some DE) but didn't get real press until recently. If we got stuck into thinking that big monsters was the "way to think about GR monsters" and that all others were bad versions of other decks, then we'd be stuck with dated lists and with lists that had not chance of handling the new decks in the format.
Tokens/burn with green gives you access to Xenagos, who when paired with Purphoros and Hordeling Outburst is quite the force. You can t3 outburst, t4 xenagos, uptick, cast a three drop which is a huge tempo swing. Xenagos in a deck like this is a house. Green in a tokens strategy is viable and hasn't been explored deeply. Getting people in a Purphorus soft-lock sounds spicy.
Whether or not it is more or less viable than Jeskai Tokens is unclear as the deck hasn't been entirely fleshed out.
UBReanimatorBU
Commander/EDH
WUBrago, King EternalUW
GFreyalise, Llanowar's FuryG
What do you all think?
You have to cut some Crater's Claws because full-rate fireballs aren't very good in this format.
t2 Hordeling Outburst only happens on Elf off of Mana Confluence.
If you're going to play Hordeling Outburst, your list should be running cards like Stoke the Flames etc. Your deck should look similar to mootown's or Lowry's from a month or two ago. Otherwise you're just playing a bunch of 1/1s that don't have synergy in your deck outside of Purphoros. There is a lot of hate for x/1s in this format with Arc Lightnings, Bile Blights, and Doomwake Giants floating around.
I've had some trouble with token type deck, so I swapped two Magma Sprays for two Arc Lightnings (in the side).
UBReanimatorBU
Commander/EDH
WUBrago, King EternalUW
GFreyalise, Llanowar's FuryG
I was worried about incidental hate due to the popularity of Jeskai Tokens as well, but it's a Goblin Rabblemaster deck - Bile Blight, Anger of the Gods, Drown in Sorrow might be coming in against you anyway. The part I liked about setting this deck up is that some of the time you aren't even all that concerned about losing the tokens as long as you've put them into play. I was much less concerned with incidental enchantment hate.
I finalized a Naya Tokens list to play in what ended up being a very small PPTQ (SCG Columbus was only a few hours drive away?) and ended up sneaking into the top 8 but lost in the top 4. I decided to go with Naya as it seemed to be the best splash for working around Siege Rhino which continued to be an issue in 'testing' (i.e. kitchen table Magic against my son). Credit is also due to Sam Pardee for both the RG video and an earlier RW video that informed some of my decision making.
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Purphoros, God of the Forge
4 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Hordeling Outburst
2 Chained to the Rocks
1 Bow of Nylea
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
3 Lightning Strike
4 Stoke the Flames
5 Mountain
3 Forest
2 Plains
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
3 Temple of Abandon
3 Temle of Triumph
2 Mana Confluence
3 Hornet Nest
1 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Arc Lightning
2 Glare of Heresy
1 Chained to the Rocks
3 Erase
I went 3-2 in the Swiss - my losses were to the players who ended up splitting in the finals. One was on Sultai Reanimator and he absolutely demolished me; 3 Erase may not be enough cards specific for this match up, but I don't recall my draws being all that spectacular. The other loss in the Swiss and semifinal was much more interesting games against Abzan Aggro that ultimately may have boiled down to minor (or even major) misplays on my part. His main deck included 3-4 copies of Bile Blight and 0 Hero's Downfall as he had out for tokens-based strategies. My wins in the swiss were against Abzan Midrange, a different Abzan Aggro pilot, and a Sultai Whip deck that also had Siege Rhino in it. Clearly, I only did okay against the field I was expecting to have to slog through - my top 8 win against UW Control was like a breath of fresh air at that point and included the only game all day where I pretty much completely rode Purphoros, God of the Forge to victory.
Changes I would strongly consider making in this list before trying it again or recommending it to others:
Elvish Mystic - I debated playing this version with a little more green or a version with a little more white that ran 3 Raise the Alarm instead - let's just say I'm strongly biased towards playing Elves on turn 1 whenever possible, so I should have found room for the 4th copy by shaving a burn spell that costs two mana - in a slower metagame, the 3rd Mana Confluence would totally be worth it for the ability to Hordeling Outburst on turn 2
Magma Jet - I quickly noticed the scry 2 is not as valuable here as in the splash blue version I have been playing, and I sided them out a lot against the decks I was playing today - it is entirely possible that I should have shaved two for another elf as amentioned above and the fourth Lightning Strike or 3rd Chained to the Rocks in the main - however, it is a fine game 1 card as it helps you find what you want against opponents and is easily replaced with low cost sideboard cards you want to draw in games 2 and 3
Hornet Nest - a lot of games on the draw today I was bringing these in for Goblin Rabblemaster and since the game was slowing down anyway to convert to more of a turtle up until Stormbreath Dragon, Purphoros, or planeswalkers take over the game - it seemed bad but correct ...
Chained to the Rocks, Glare of Heresy, Erase - often felt like Swords to Plowshares without the lifegain today - the ability to play one of these or a burn spell and a threat of your own on the same turn felt silly - this version is less explosive perhaps than the splash blue version, but it feels more able to win a grindy midrange match - I did glance longingly at all the cards in my graveyard a couple times today; Murderous Cut could provide a similar tempo play
Stormbreath Dragon - Wingmate Roc works better with the overall idea of the deck (as it makes removal look bad, double triggers Purphoros, plays nice with Elspeth, but dragon is just so good right now ... I don't think the mana can support roc or Brimaz, King of Oreskos as configured; stick with the double-red threat over the double-white token makers. I probably did as well as I did today on the back of dragon forcing players into awkward positions when they had already used a Hero's Downfall on a Goblin Rabblemaster or a planeswalker.
Arc Lightning - definitely the least useful sideboard card today - should have been either Barrage of Boulders or Scouring Sands today if not a completely different effect
there is another PPTQ in the area next weekend; I can easily see running something very similar to this again at that event
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpden15/top8decklists
His build seems to be a bit more slow than some of the recent agro builds, but overall I think it's pretty close to where we want to be right now.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=576454
UBReanimatorBU
Commander/EDH
WUBrago, King EternalUW
GFreyalise, Llanowar's FuryG
Brian Kibler too switch to Gruul Aggro from his Temur Aggro. He finished 20th with 12-3 record in GP Denver. He lost to Jeskai Tokens, Abzan Aggro and to Sam Black's RW Tokens. Still waiting for his SCG article but I'm guessing big reason behind it was Temur's mana intensive and the amount damage to self from the painlands and fetches is just ridiculous. I once played I think against Mardu Tokens, and I'm on attacking mode but my lands hurt me about 13 damage from 2 Mana Confluence, fetches and painlands. My opponent only played Goblin Rabblemaster on turn 3 but immediately killed by Lightning Strike. I think few turns later I lost (so close) to Lightning Strike and Stoke the Flames.
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Heir of the Wilds
3 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Fanatic of Xenagos
3 Boon Satyr
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Polukranos, World Eater
2 Ashcloud Phoenix
3 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
Spells
4 Crater’s Claws
Lands
4 Temple of Abandon
4 Wooded Foothills
6 Forest
6 Mountain
2 Mana Confluence
1 Rugged Highlands
2 Fated Conflagration
1 Xenagos, the Reveler
3 Destructive Revelry
3 Arc Lightning
2 Magma Spray
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Barrage of Boulders
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
Maybe it's just me, but Mana Confluence seems really over the top with a 2 color mana base and ample fixing between temples, gainlands, fetchlands, and potentially Rattleclaw Mystic. I wouldn't mind if Karplusan Forest was standard legal, since you can use it for colorless after the first couple turns, but sadly, it's not around.
I LOVE the Elf/Nest/Outburst/Stoke/Rabblemaster/Purphoros/Chord/Queen backbone that you're talking about. Going extra EXTRA wide sounds like a lot of fun for a casual FNM deck, but Doomwake Giant would basically cause an auto-scoop, and Whip decks are still all the rage right now.
For the aggro decks, you mana is not the best. With 24 sources you have 8 duals with 16 basics. Depending on how you sort things, this gives you 16 (+/- depending on how you count fetches) sources of a single color of mana. Yet, you have to cast double red on turn 4 and double green on turn 3. If you run Mana Confluence, you up your count to 18 a piece, which is much better.
I would not run gainlands, unless you're a slower monsters build, as they can really get in the way of getting your opponent dead, a window for which your first three turns are crucial and having two tapped lands in your opener can be a real bummer.
However, the pain is real and I definitely hurt myself considerably with Mana Confluence this weekend. If you have a lot of Courser in your meta, I cannot reccomend the RG Monsters build enough. If not, then maybe it's not for you.
Kind of an all in strategy, I feel like if you find yourself racing by just attacking into an opponent with barrage, you could also play Feed the Clan, but that's assuming they're not playing enough removal to keep you from attacking.
Too cutesy and dies to removal.
Purphoros is too cutesy and dies to Erase. Does nothing on his own.
Splashing white for Chain to the Rocks (with only 5 mountains lol) seems terrible.
The R/G list with almost zero removal main seems terrible. I already see far too many 2-3x stormbreath hands that need mulling. Now I can mull away Sarkhan too? And 4x Ashcloud as well? And am I just hoping they're not playing a removal heavy deck? Because it seems like that deck just loses to anyone who has more than 1 removal spell in their hand. I get that it has Rattleclaw to help boost these things out, but you are gambling that they won't just Jet or Arc or Lightning away your dorks. Or Drown away your whole team, leaving you with not enough lands to play fatties. Probably a meta call, I guess. Kibler's list doesn't seem so bad because he cut a Stormbreath and he's done an even split Polukranos/Ashcloud, but I have won far too many games by curving out and then drawing a Lightning Strike or Arc Lightning to end it on the spot. I still think Chandra is better main than Xenagos.
Why is everyone insisting on tokens. That is a step back, not a step forward for this deck. We're already soft to drown in sorrows/anger of the gods, and you want to lean in to that by taking out bigger butts and putting in 1/1s? Why? And dilute ferocious?
I've tweaked my own list to run 2x Polukranos main (great against token/aggro strats - they have to use two cards generally to kill him, if they ever manage to kill him). I am also happier with 2x Boon Satyr main, although I may bump it up to 3 in the current meta. It's just a great answer to sweeper heavy decks, and if they're dumb enough to side in enchantment hate after seeing it G1, all the better for me.
Hey, uh, I didn't mention anything about playing with a specific list, let alone white mana or tokens.
What I have here, what you quoted that I wrote was a suggestion regarding playing against tokens and other decks with a card that allows you to sweep tokens and swing unblocked.
I feel like Barrage with Ferocious by itself is good with these lists that run high power and low toughness cards like Boon Satyr, that want to get in for damage but will often lose in combat.
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I'd be interested to see the tech on siding with the Matt Costa deck. As I took it to FNM last night and went 2-1 (We only do 3 rounds, it sucks I know) Beat Mardu Control and U/W Heroic, lost barely to Sultai Whip, couldnt get under fast enough before he came online with a top decked Drown. Placed 3rd of like 17.
If you're on 3 drop beat down (roughly Bolt's list), then Chandra is good against Courser decks. She's also good against tokens.