I've been trying the winning lists in the OP and they are all decent, but I think I like the GR version with planeswalkers the best. So many decks come loading up on the creature removal, and having planeswalkers provides threat diversity (plus, Nissa and Xenagos make extra minions).
Edit: this deck seems to have a *miserable* matchup with Jeskai combo. I've gone with Lightning Strike and Setessan Tactics, but that doesn't seem enough. What do other people use against this matchup?
First of all I sm shocked at the lack of mono green decks in the top 8 khans pro tour. That being said I would like to get some chatter going about how/if mono green or splash can beat The Jeskai wins build. What splash deals with the Jeskai best? I can see adding Lightning Strikes to the side in order to beat Mantis Rider, or maybe more Crater Claws in the main?
Black seems like it would be good for Downfall in taking out their Sarkhans. Or is mono green the answer so we can pump out Arbor Colossus and Hornet Queens to combat the Mantis Rider? I'm hoping we can get some analysis from the more seasoned green players on this matchup.
I think green devotion decks were the 'best deck' coming in, so most everybody came with a deck that beats it, either via thoughtseize + removal + threats or threats + burn, or combo. That makes sense to me.
One way we could do this is to run less ramp, and more castable early threats.
Call me crazy, but wouldn't an 88/88 hydra instantly lose you the game because it would require you reveal 88 cards? Or do you deck yourself only when you have to draw the non-existent card?
Looking at the Pro Tour, I think that Monogreen Devotion has the tools necessary to address the upcoming metagame.
Targeted removal is everyone's best tool against us, and there are a couple unused cards that makes it less effective. I've come up with a decklist that includes them. I'll explain card choice below it.
Bassara Tower Archer - Can't be killed by Lightning Strike or Hero's Downfall, thus ensuring that we can trade with Goblin Rabblemaster all day. Throw a counter on it with Bow of Nylea and it trades with a Mantis Rider. Post-sideboard, target it with Mortal's Resolve and your Archer kills a Rider and lives to tell the tale without fear of being killed by your opponent's instants. As an bonus benefit, it adds double-green devotion to the board early to power up Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx quickly. Basically, this is a hard to kill creature that slows down aggro opponents and gets quick damage in against control decks, all while doing a great job of powering up Nykthos.
Mortal's Resolve (Sideboard) - This is essentially a green Negate against midrange strategies. People are really relying on Hero's Downfall, Lightning Strike, Stokes the Flames, and various charms to control our board, but just keeping a Polukranos, the World Eater, Arbor Colossus, or Hornet Nest alive for another turn while draining our opponents of mana and tempo can lead to blowouts. This card may cause us to slow our game down a bit in order to play around removal spells, but it'll be worth it to see the look on their dumb faces.
Bow of Nylea - The deathtouch while attacking is amazing in mirror matches, allowing our Courser of Kruphix's and mana dorks to attack through their's. The life gain mode is great to battle burn-heavy Jeskai decks. Putting a counter on a Bassara Tower Archer can allow it to kill a Mantis Rider.
Sylvan Caryatid, Elvish Mystic and Voyaging Satyr - I only went with 2 Caryatid because in playtesting with 12 mana dorks, I've run into games where the deck just draws them all and has no action, so 10 seems like a more sensible number. Elvish Mystic accelerates us faster, and Voyaging Satyr makes Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx more explosive, so I've prioritized them ahead of Sylvan Caryatid. I like that Caryatid blocks aggressive 1 drop creatures, but those types of aggro decks are not in the top tier of the metagame, and I think we have other tools that will battle those types of decks effectively.
Nylea, God of the Hunt - Many times when I'm casting a huge Genesis Hydra, this is the card that I'm hoping to find. When the board is gummed up with creatures, giving your massive fatties trample is what is going to end the game now and not later. The +2/+2 ability is often relevant as well.
Chord of Calling - Need to give creatures trample? Find Nylea. Want to blowout a Polukranos, the World Eater or Goblin Rabblemaster that's coming your way? Get a Hornet Nest. Did your opponent try to wipeout your board of mana dorks with Anger of the Gods, but you don't have a ton of mana free? Hornet Nest would also be fun to go get at instant speed. The singleton Chord of Calling not only allows us to do these things, it helps us get our sideboard cards that can allow us to gain life, destroy Perilous Vaults and Jeskai Ascendancy's, and turn off Planeswalkers.
Phyrexian Revoker - This guy turns off Planeswalkers and Perilous Vault. That's why he's here. As a bonus, you can shut off opposing mana dorks, or turn off whatever creature your opponent has in play to target with Retraction Helix when you're playing against Jeskai Ascendancy.
Nissa, Worldwaker - Just a great card that must be answered immediately or you will be able to bury your opponent in threats. Good to side the extra copy in against control decks to maximize threat density.
Setessan Tactics (Sideboard) - Sadly, getting rid of a black splash robs us of our access to spot removal via Hero's Downfall. Setessan Tactics is the closest replacement in green, and has the advantage of being able to kill off multiple targets. Side it in against creature-based strategies to try to get the upper hand. Only 2 are included in the sideboard, because it is only good if we have a substantial board presence, so we don't really care to draw multiples.[card]
Nylea's Disciple - Gain life and have a blocker left over? Sounds like a good way to buy time against aggro and midrange decks to me.
I believe that there is a very competitive version of this deck out there. Especially now that decks will have to concern themselves less with Green Devotion and more with Jeskai Wins, Abzan Midrange, UB Control and Jeskai Ascendancy decks.
Genny into Garruk is godly. Im really liking massive Genny Hydras, and am thinking I have too many spells. So there is my answer, I think I need to cut a Chord maybe. I genny'd for 10 cards and only had a garruk and another genny. I already had my first Garruk in play, so I had to replace him.
Perilous Vault has a very strong synergy with Nissa, Worldwaker. It is the new Nevinyrral's Disk. You could easily drop Nissa on turn 3 or 4 and follow it up with a vault and suddenly your opponent just can't play any permanents without being swept.
Your tweaks appear to pull the deck into two different directions, both of which war with the deck's core strategy. Sarkhan and Ashcloud are aggressive cards that want to beat the opponent down. Vault is a slow durdly card that wants to beat the opponent in a war of attrition, yet attacks our own (permanent based) advantage.
Some really quick feedback from me: 3 Wooded Foothills is flat out wrong. The synergy with Courser is amazing and even the monoG builds run fetches. The 4th is mandatory.
And now for something completely different.
I think our deck has five different problems it has to overcome, neatly encapsulated in the decks that did well at the pro tour. They are:
Problem 1. Azban: A general weakness to Thoughtseize + removal, where our ramp + fatty approach suddenly turns into slow fatties without the ramp, or ramp but nothing to do with it.
Problem 2. Jeaskai wins: We are crippled by Anger the Gods or multiple spot removals on our mana bugs, slowing us enormously.
Problem 3. Jeskai Wins: Not fast enough to respond to a clock followed by disruption
Problem 4. Jeskai combo: No ability to disrupt/interact with the opponent as they set up in their early turns. We're basically hoping that a T3 Polukranos is better than anything the opponent can do, and in the case of combo, that's just not true.
Problem 5. UB Control: Our gods and planeswalkers are already addressed by other decks cheaply and efficiently.
I won't pretend to have solved all of those problems, but here are my thoughts on each issue.
Problem 1. Azban: A general weakness to Thoughtseize + removal, where our ramp + fatty approach suddenly turns into slow fatties without the ramp, or ramp but nothing to do with it.
Solution 1. We need to have much less high end, and far more things we can do early even when our ramp is burned out. Additionally, that means that 12 mana bugs is too many. Cutting the high end and some bugs gives us more midrange things we can do. The high end things we do with our ramp need to pull double duty and act as either removal or card advantage.
Problem 3. Jeskai Wins: Not fast enough to respond to a clock followed by disruption
Solution 3. The only answer I can see to this is being able to remove their threats, since their strategy of laying a threat and burning a path for it is pretty reliable against us. I think ridiculous lifegain is about the only way we can combat that, but unfortunately I think we're just a really bad Azban deck in this matchup.
Problem 4. Jeskai combo: No ability to disrupt/interact with the opponent as they set up in their early turns. We're basically hoping that a T3 Polukranos is better than anything the opponent can do, and in the case of combo, that's just not true.
Solution 4. I've tried lots of Chords and Reclamation Sage, and it's just far too slow. I think that Destructive Force, Naturalize, Consign to Dust etc need to be the instant speed options.
Problem 5. UB Control: Our gods and planeswalkers are already addressed by other decks cheaply and efficiently.
Soution 5. I think that this is plain and simple an issue of card advantage. Nissa, Worldwaker is our best card against them, while other planeswalkers and Genesis Hydra are great. BAsically, all of our high end cards are great.
Nylea, God of the Hunt is a card that I have been very high on, and I've been advocating running as a 2-of. But the reason I've been running it as a 2-of is because everybody has ways to exile him in their MD. And once you get to that point, he's no longer the durable threat he was.
So where to from here? Honestly, it feels a bit like all of the strategic problems this archetype faces are pulling it towards being Azban.
What do people think? Are these the biggest challenges facing this archetype? Is the analysis of possible solutions valid? What would you say/do instead?
Personally, I think that G Devotion has a good matchup against Siege Rhino Midrange. Your threats are much more threatening, and you can maindeck Hornet Queen.
I have tweaked my list some and now run 2 Silence the Believers and 1 Stain the Mind. I am loving the Jund Devotion approach despite not using Thoughtseize (which I could run, and will have the three we own in the SB). My list is listed with cards I own, minus the fetchs (my boyfriend and I have one of each between us), so only three Coursers, but you are totally right about the synergy with the fetches, will get the 4th
I like that list Ash, but I think the 2nd and 3rd Hornet Queen will be better for you than Chord of Calling and Stain the Mind.
I'd be inclined to be leery of Stormbreath Dragon as well, but I remember him from pre-rotation and he was amazing there, so I can't bring myself to criticise him.
Truth about Hornet Queen maybe, as less spells equals more genny targets. I love Chord. But I will test it without as you suggest. Stain the mind is interesting I think, I know it doesnt see play, but it can ruin a game plan, and I think will be great vs Jeskai and Siege Rhino. Im going to test a second one for Shiz and gigs. But this list below I will drop them for Sarkhan, as it is awesome to have five crazy dragons, plus he is back up removal
Both Azban and Jeskai are 'goodstuff' decks where the cards in the deck are very similar and consistent. It also doesn't impact the board at all, making it a terrible play vs Jeskai in particular.
Where stain would be great as as an absolute blowout vs Jeskai Ascendancy.
If you want more planeswalkers, Chandra is also an option....
I was def thinking of Jeskai Ascendancy when I said that, ty I will test 2 in the sideboard. Silence the believers? I just like it better than hero's downfall a bit at least in this deck that can produce a ton of mana. first time you exile on target, then hope for the second late game. Not really looking for more walkers per se, even though my list has a bunch. They all support the main plan somehow. chandra is nice, but does she fit?
Well, she's pretty amazing when you have a Courser of Kruphix in play, since you *know* what you will be casting with the +0 ability. That's about all.
Very true, good point. Her +1 is pretty sweet too, but then im getting too far away from good green devotion I think. Certainly will try her out, thanks
vs Azban 2-0
SB in HQ, Hunt, out Chandra, Rattleclaw
Hornet Queen excellent, Hunt the Hunter so so
vs Jeskai Burn 2-0
G1 I managed to get assorted dorks and play T3 Nissa made 4/4s and he quickly fell behind.
out Chander, 2 Hydra, in 3 Strike, 1 tactics, 1 queen
G2 random dorks and planeswalkers distracted him from developing his board kept the pressure on while Lightning Strike gave me a sense of peace.
vs Jeskai Burn, 0-2
Lost g1 to burn flurry
sb out Chandra, Claws, 2 mystic, 2 Hydra, in 4 Disciple, queen, lightning strike
G2 lose to Mantis rider, followed by Sarhkan/Burn. revoker stopped Carytid mana boosting
vs Rabble Red 0-2
G1 lose to Goblin Hordes
sb out fatties, in instant burn and disciples
G2 lose to rabblemaster + dudes with clunky PW draw
vs Temur midrange 2-0
He didn't interact with me, and both games a T4/T5 Hornet queen made his life impossible.
Thoughts on the cards
- Chandra, Pyromaster felt really low impact. The decks with the 1 toughness guys need a lot more than just a ping a turn.
+ Hornet Queen was amazing in every match. Even vs Rabble Red (where it's really too slow) it does the job better than planeswalkers or hydras do. It's bad vs Anger of the Gods though.
+ Xenagos, the Reveler and Nissa, Worldwaker were both great. vs aggro decks their mana ramping allowed me to deploy my hand faster, and vs everyone else they made tokens to pressure the opponent.
+ Genesis Hydra gets better the more hornet queens are in the deck.
+ Elvish Mystic. Playing vs red aggro decks is still *really* dicey. I feel like we want something that gains us life and flies. Having an Elvish Mystic that doesn't immediately die is critical to winning.
Maybe I need Hornet Nest as a SB card vs red aggro. Has anybody else tried it? What did you think of it?
That deck seems a bit all over the place. The only takeaway I have from that is that Goblin Rabblemaster is a really strong card, and like Stormbreath Dragon and Sarkhan, it might be right to run it simply because it's such a strong card, even if it doesn't have much inherent synergy with the deck.
with lots of success in local events. But, I have not been facing much in the way of Tier 1 decks. I'm interested in what approaches people take against the common Jeskai and Abzan decks. Whether I might need to change my sideboard if I am headed to an event that will feature more Tier 1 decks.
I will mention that I love Hornet Nest and the combo with Anger of the Gods, Crater's Claw, or Setessan Tactics. I once Crater's Clawed for 12, targeting my own Hornet Nest, which shut down my opponent and led to a rather quick victory in the air.
Edit: this deck seems to have a *miserable* matchup with Jeskai combo. I've gone with Lightning Strike and Setessan Tactics, but that doesn't seem enough. What do other people use against this matchup?
Black seems like it would be good for Downfall in taking out their Sarkhans. Or is mono green the answer so we can pump out Arbor Colossus and Hornet Queens to combat the Mantis Rider? I'm hoping we can get some analysis from the more seasoned green players on this matchup.
One way we could do this is to run less ramp, and more castable early threats.
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
3 Arbor Colossus
2 Crater's Claws
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Nissa, WorldWaker
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
2 Mountain
4 Temple of Abandon
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Hornet Nest
4 Nylea's Disciple
2 Hornet Queen
3 Destructive Revelry
2 Lightning Strike
That still gives us plays if/when our first couple if mana bugs are killed, as well as things to do with excess mana.
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
Targeted removal is everyone's best tool against us, and there are a couple unused cards that makes it less effective. I've come up with a decklist that includes them. I'll explain card choice below it.
4 Voyaging Satyr
2 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Genesis Hydra
4 Polukranos, the World Eater
4 Bassara Tower Archer
2 Arbor Colossus
2 Hornet Queen
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
1 Hornet Nest
1 Nissa, Worldwaker
1 Chord of Calling
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
12 Forest
3 Nylea’s Disciple
4 Mortal’s Resolve
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Consign to Dust
2 Setessan Tactics
1 Nissa, Worldwaker
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Chord of Calling
Let's run down some card choices:
Bassara Tower Archer - Can't be killed by Lightning Strike or Hero's Downfall, thus ensuring that we can trade with Goblin Rabblemaster all day. Throw a counter on it with Bow of Nylea and it trades with a Mantis Rider. Post-sideboard, target it with Mortal's Resolve and your Archer kills a Rider and lives to tell the tale without fear of being killed by your opponent's instants. As an bonus benefit, it adds double-green devotion to the board early to power up Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx quickly. Basically, this is a hard to kill creature that slows down aggro opponents and gets quick damage in against control decks, all while doing a great job of powering up Nykthos.
Mortal's Resolve (Sideboard) - This is essentially a green Negate against midrange strategies. People are really relying on Hero's Downfall, Lightning Strike, Stokes the Flames, and various charms to control our board, but just keeping a Polukranos, the World Eater, Arbor Colossus, or Hornet Nest alive for another turn while draining our opponents of mana and tempo can lead to blowouts. This card may cause us to slow our game down a bit in order to play around removal spells, but it'll be worth it to see the look on their dumb faces.
Bow of Nylea - The deathtouch while attacking is amazing in mirror matches, allowing our Courser of Kruphix's and mana dorks to attack through their's. The life gain mode is great to battle burn-heavy Jeskai decks. Putting a counter on a Bassara Tower Archer can allow it to kill a Mantis Rider.
Sylvan Caryatid, Elvish Mystic and Voyaging Satyr - I only went with 2 Caryatid because in playtesting with 12 mana dorks, I've run into games where the deck just draws them all and has no action, so 10 seems like a more sensible number. Elvish Mystic accelerates us faster, and Voyaging Satyr makes Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx more explosive, so I've prioritized them ahead of Sylvan Caryatid. I like that Caryatid blocks aggressive 1 drop creatures, but those types of aggro decks are not in the top tier of the metagame, and I think we have other tools that will battle those types of decks effectively.
Wooded Foothills and Windswept Heath - A full compliment of fetches to maximize the top deck manipulation and lifegain afforded to us by Courser of Kruphix.
Arbor Colossus and Hornet Queen - Being able to block fliers with these is so important in a meta filled with Mantis Rider, Stormbreath Dragon, Ashcloud Phoenix, Wingmate Roc and Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker. They also provide great blockers for the beat stick that is Siege Rhino, and all make for amazing creatures to target with Setessan Tactics. Of course, they're not bad at attacking either.
Nylea, God of the Hunt - Many times when I'm casting a huge Genesis Hydra, this is the card that I'm hoping to find. When the board is gummed up with creatures, giving your massive fatties trample is what is going to end the game now and not later. The +2/+2 ability is often relevant as well.
Chord of Calling - Need to give creatures trample? Find Nylea. Want to blowout a Polukranos, the World Eater or Goblin Rabblemaster that's coming your way? Get a Hornet Nest. Did your opponent try to wipeout your board of mana dorks with Anger of the Gods, but you don't have a ton of mana free? Hornet Nest would also be fun to go get at instant speed. The singleton Chord of Calling not only allows us to do these things, it helps us get our sideboard cards that can allow us to gain life, destroy Perilous Vaults and Jeskai Ascendancy's, and turn off Planeswalkers.
Reclamation Sage and Consign to Dust (Sideboard) - Jeskai Ascendancy and Perilous Vault are the main concerns here, but there are a few other targets out there that could be relevant. Killing your opponent's Courser of Kruphixes isn't a terrible thing to do in the mirror match.
Phyrexian Revoker - This guy turns off Planeswalkers and Perilous Vault. That's why he's here. As a bonus, you can shut off opposing mana dorks, or turn off whatever creature your opponent has in play to target with Retraction Helix when you're playing against Jeskai Ascendancy.
Nissa, Worldwaker - Just a great card that must be answered immediately or you will be able to bury your opponent in threats. Good to side the extra copy in against control decks to maximize threat density.
Setessan Tactics (Sideboard) - Sadly, getting rid of a black splash robs us of our access to spot removal via Hero's Downfall. Setessan Tactics is the closest replacement in green, and has the advantage of being able to kill off multiple targets. Side it in against creature-based strategies to try to get the upper hand. Only 2 are included in the sideboard, because it is only good if we have a substantial board presence, so we don't really care to draw multiples.[card]
Nylea's Disciple - Gain life and have a blocker left over? Sounds like a good way to buy time against aggro and midrange decks to me.
Courser of Kruphix[/card], Genesis Hydra, and Polukranos, the World Eater - These should be pretty self-explanatory at this point.
I believe that there is a very competitive version of this deck out there. Especially now that decks will have to concern themselves less with Green Devotion and more with Jeskai Wins, Abzan Midrange, UB Control and Jeskai Ascendancy decks.
This is what I am fooling around with right now
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Voyaging Satyr
3 Courser of Kruphix
3 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Genesis Hydra
1 Hornet Queen
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
2 Nissa, Worldwaker
2 Garruk, Apex Predator
3 Chord of Calling
2 Crater's Claws
Lands
3 Temple of Abandon
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
7 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Mana Confluence
3 Llanowar Wastes
Genny into Garruk is godly. Im really liking massive Genny Hydras, and am thinking I have too many spells. So there is my answer, I think I need to cut a Chord maybe. I genny'd for 10 cards and only had a garruk and another genny. I already had my first Garruk in play, so I had to replace him.
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Voyaging Satyr
1 Rattleclaw Mystic
1 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Genesis Hydra
1 Hornet Queen
1 Arbor Colossus
3 Ashcloud Phoenix
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
1 Crater's Claws
3 Nissa, Worldwaker
2 Sarkhan, The Dragonspeaker
2 Perilous Vault
Lands
4 Wooded foothills
4 Temple of Abandon
1 Evolving Wilds
3 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2 Mountain
10 Forest
Perilous Vault has a very strong synergy with Nissa, Worldwaker. It is the new Nevinyrral's Disk. You could easily drop Nissa on turn 3 or 4 and follow it up with a vault and suddenly your opponent just can't play any permanents without being swept.
P.S. I only have 1 Rattleclaw and 1 Caryatid
Your tweaks appear to pull the deck into two different directions, both of which war with the deck's core strategy. Sarkhan and Ashcloud are aggressive cards that want to beat the opponent down. Vault is a slow durdly card that wants to beat the opponent in a war of attrition, yet attacks our own (permanent based) advantage.
Some really quick feedback from me: 3 Wooded Foothills is flat out wrong. The synergy with Courser is amazing and even the monoG builds run fetches. The 4th is mandatory.
And now for something completely different.
I think our deck has five different problems it has to overcome, neatly encapsulated in the decks that did well at the pro tour. They are:
Problem 1. Azban: A general weakness to Thoughtseize + removal, where our ramp + fatty approach suddenly turns into slow fatties without the ramp, or ramp but nothing to do with it.
Problem 2. Jeaskai wins: We are crippled by Anger the Gods or multiple spot removals on our mana bugs, slowing us enormously.
Problem 3. Jeskai Wins: Not fast enough to respond to a clock followed by disruption
Problem 4. Jeskai combo: No ability to disrupt/interact with the opponent as they set up in their early turns. We're basically hoping that a T3 Polukranos is better than anything the opponent can do, and in the case of combo, that's just not true.
Problem 5. UB Control: Our gods and planeswalkers are already addressed by other decks cheaply and efficiently.
I won't pretend to have solved all of those problems, but here are my thoughts on each issue.
Problem 1. Azban: A general weakness to Thoughtseize + removal, where our ramp + fatty approach suddenly turns into slow fatties without the ramp, or ramp but nothing to do with it.
Solution 1. We need to have much less high end, and far more things we can do early even when our ramp is burned out. Additionally, that means that 12 mana bugs is too many. Cutting the high end and some bugs gives us more midrange things we can do. The high end things we do with our ramp need to pull double duty and act as either removal or card advantage.
Problem 2. Jeaskai wins: We are crippled by Anger the Gods or multiple spot removals on our mana bugs, slowing us enormously.
Solution 2. Unsure. This has always been the achilles heel of devotion decks. Some potential options: Wall of Mulch, Savage Knucklebone, Anafenza, the Foremost, Hornet Nest.
Problem 3. Jeskai Wins: Not fast enough to respond to a clock followed by disruption
Solution 3. The only answer I can see to this is being able to remove their threats, since their strategy of laying a threat and burning a path for it is pretty reliable against us. I think ridiculous lifegain is about the only way we can combat that, but unfortunately I think we're just a really bad Azban deck in this matchup.
Problem 4. Jeskai combo: No ability to disrupt/interact with the opponent as they set up in their early turns. We're basically hoping that a T3 Polukranos is better than anything the opponent can do, and in the case of combo, that's just not true.
Solution 4. I've tried lots of Chords and Reclamation Sage, and it's just far too slow. I think that Destructive Force, Naturalize, Consign to Dust etc need to be the instant speed options.
Problem 5. UB Control: Our gods and planeswalkers are already addressed by other decks cheaply and efficiently.
Soution 5. I think that this is plain and simple an issue of card advantage. Nissa, Worldwaker is our best card against them, while other planeswalkers and Genesis Hydra are great. BAsically, all of our high end cards are great.
Nylea, God of the Hunt is a card that I have been very high on, and I've been advocating running as a 2-of. But the reason I've been running it as a 2-of is because everybody has ways to exile him in their MD. And once you get to that point, he's no longer the durable threat he was.
So where to from here? Honestly, it feels a bit like all of the strategic problems this archetype faces are pulling it towards being Azban.
What do people think? Are these the biggest challenges facing this archetype? Is the analysis of possible solutions valid? What would you say/do instead?
I think you autolose to Jeskai Combo though.
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
Here is the update
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Courser of Kruphix
3 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
1 Hornet Queen
4 Genesis Hydra
1 Chord of Calling
2 Silence the Believers
1 Stain the Mind
2 Crater's Claws
Walkers
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
2 Nissa, Worldwaker
2 Garruk, Apex Predator
3 Temple of Abandon
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
5 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Mana Confluence
3 Llanowar Wastes
Thanks for the feedback
I think Genny into Garruk and getting a beast token or destroying a PW is awesome. I also like genny into the hasty Stormbreath.
I'd be inclined to be leery of Stormbreath Dragon as well, but I remember him from pre-rotation and he was amazing there, so I can't bring myself to criticise him.
Here is the update
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Courser of Kruphix
3 Polukranos, World Eater
3 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
2 Hornet Queen
4 Genesis Hydra
2 Silence the Believers
2 Crater's Claws
Walkers
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
2 Nissa, Worldwaker
2 Garruk, Apex Predator
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
Lands
3 Temple of Abandon
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
5 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Mana Confluence
3 Llanowar Wastes
Where stain would be great as as an absolute blowout vs Jeskai Ascendancy.
If you want more planeswalkers, Chandra is also an option....
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
3 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Voyaging Satyr
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Genesis Hydra
3 Hornet Queen
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
2 Nissa, Worldwaker
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Temple of Abandon
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
9 Forest
2 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Nylea's Disciple
3 Destructive Revelry
1 Hornet Queen
3 Lightning Strike
2 Setessan Tactics
2 Hunt the Hunter
And some quick playtesting results:
vs Azban 2-0
SB in HQ, Hunt, out Chandra, Rattleclaw
Hornet Queen excellent, Hunt the Hunter so so
vs Jeskai Burn 2-0
G1 I managed to get assorted dorks and play T3 Nissa made 4/4s and he quickly fell behind.
out Chander, 2 Hydra, in 3 Strike, 1 tactics, 1 queen
G2 random dorks and planeswalkers distracted him from developing his board kept the pressure on while Lightning Strike gave me a sense of peace.
vs Jeskai Burn, 0-2
Lost g1 to burn flurry
sb out Chandra, Claws, 2 mystic, 2 Hydra, in 4 Disciple, queen, lightning strike
G2 lose to Mantis rider, followed by Sarhkan/Burn. revoker stopped Carytid mana boosting
vs Rabble Red 0-2
G1 lose to Goblin Hordes
sb out fatties, in instant burn and disciples
G2 lose to rabblemaster + dudes with clunky PW draw
vs Temur midrange 2-0
He didn't interact with me, and both games a T4/T5 Hornet queen made his life impossible.
Thoughts on the cards
- Chandra, Pyromaster felt really low impact. The decks with the 1 toughness guys need a lot more than just a ping a turn.
+ Hornet Queen was amazing in every match. Even vs Rabble Red (where it's really too slow) it does the job better than planeswalkers or hydras do. It's bad vs Anger of the Gods though.
+ Xenagos, the Reveler and Nissa, Worldwaker were both great. vs aggro decks their mana ramping allowed me to deploy my hand faster, and vs everyone else they made tokens to pressure the opponent.
+ Genesis Hydra gets better the more hornet queens are in the deck.
+ Elvish Mystic. Playing vs red aggro decks is still *really* dicey. I feel like we want something that gains us life and flies. Having an Elvish Mystic that doesn't immediately die is critical to winning.
Maybe I need Hornet Nest as a SB card vs red aggro. Has anybody else tried it? What did you think of it?
This is what I think I'll try next:
2 Chandra, Pyromaster -> SB
SB 2 Lighting Strike -> MD
SB -2 Setessan Tactics
SB +2 Hornet Nest
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
3 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Voyaging Satyr
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Genesis Hydra
3 Hornet Queen
2 Lightning Strike (a concession to red decks)
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
2 Nissa, Worldwaker
4 Temple of Abandon
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
9 Forest
2 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Nylea's Disciple
3 Destructive Revelry
1 Hornet Queen
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Lightning Strike
2 Hornet Nest
2 Hunt the Hunter
What do people think?
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=74498
Uses Hordeling Outburst with Rabblemaster and Xenagos to pump out early Chord of Callings.
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Voyaging Satyr
4 Courser of Kruphix
3 Eidolon of Blossoms
4 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Doomwake Giant
2 Whip of Erebos
4 See the Unwritten
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Temple of Malady
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Llanowar Wastes
3 Windswept Heath
6 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Thoughtseize
2 Bile Blight
3 Reclamation Sage
3 Nylea's Disciple
1 Arbor Colossus
3 Nissa, Worldwaker
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
4 Voyaging Satyr
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Eidolon of Blossoms
4 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
3 Doomwake Giant
1 Arbor Colossus
2 Hornet Queen
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Temple of Malady
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
7 Forest
1 Arbor Colossus
2 Setessan Tactics
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Back to Nature
2 Hero's Downfall
4 Nylea's Disciple
3 Thoughtseize
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Voyaging Satyr
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Eidolon of Blossoms
4 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
1 Nissa, Worldwaker
4 Doomwake Giant
2 Hornet Queen
1 Hunter's Prowess
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Temple of Malady
4 Llanowar Wastes
2 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
9 Forest
1 Nissa, Worldwaker
1 In Garruk's Wake
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
1 Soul of Zendikar
1 Arbor Colossus
1 Hornet Nest
2 Setessan Tactics
2 Reclamation Sage
4 Nylea's Disciple
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Voyaging Satyr
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Polukranos, World Eater
2 Eidolon of Blossoms
2 Arbor Colossus
4 Doomwake Giant
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
2 Hornet Queen
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Temple of Malady
4 Llanowar Wastes
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Windswept Heath
7 Forest
3 Nissa, Worldwaker
3 Thoughtseize
2 Setessan Tactics
1 Phraika, God of Affliction
4 Nylea's Disciple
2 Hornet Nest
Making me think that some sort of 'average deck' could look like this:
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Voyaging Satyr
4 Courser of Kruphix
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
4 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Eidolon of Blossoms
4 Doomwake Giant
1 Arbor Colossus
2 Hornet Queen
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Temple of Malady
4 Llanowar Wastes
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Windswept Heath
7 Forest
3 Nissa, Worldwaker
3 Thoughtseize
4 Nylea's Disciple
2 Setessan Tactics
1 Phraika, God of Affliction
2 Reclamation Sage (or Hornet's Nest)
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Voyaging Satyr
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Hornet Nest
4 Polukranos, Worldeater
4 Genesis Hydra
2 Nylea, God of the Hunt
3 Arbor Colossus
1 Hornet Queen
2 Crater's Claws
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Temple of Abandon
10 Forest
2 Mountain
3 Anger of the Gods
2 Hornet Nest
2 Crater's Claws
2 Setessan Tactics
1 Hornet Queen
1 Arbor Colossus
1 Bow of Nylea
3 Reclamation Sage
with lots of success in local events. But, I have not been facing much in the way of Tier 1 decks. I'm interested in what approaches people take against the common Jeskai and Abzan decks. Whether I might need to change my sideboard if I am headed to an event that will feature more Tier 1 decks.
I will mention that I love Hornet Nest and the combo with Anger of the Gods, Crater's Claw, or Setessan Tactics. I once Crater's Clawed for 12, targeting my own Hornet Nest, which shut down my opponent and led to a rather quick victory in the air.