Omenspeaker is also the most maindeckable answer to Aggro.
I actually have grown attached to Returned Phalanx. Same CMC, can profitably block or trade with most of the important threats in standard. Specifically it trades with Rabblemaster and War-Named Aspirant, as well as eating 2/2s.
And the Returned Phalanx beatdown is real after you have gained control of the game.
Prognostic Sphinx + Dig Through Time is also very good, with Sphinx allowing you to scry garbage away for better hits, as well as being a discard outlet for the Delve. Typically, I play out about 8-9 lands and then either discard them to protect Sphinx, while holding up counters or don't draw them at all because of Sphinx + Dig.
Sideboard needs more testing, so right now its mostly a guessing game. Not sure about Empty the Pits.
For the most part it depends on matchup and what not. I don't play the deck as "Protect the Queen". If I can jam Ashiok into tapped mana and they untap and downfall, I'm happy with them wasting their turn to do that.
One thing I find this deck to be missing is a Keranos like effect. Some sort of permanent we can put in play and gain residual advantage every turn from it. I'm still in search of a Trading Post, Keranos, or something of the like that can win the game while I counter and kill everything in sight.
Jamming an Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver turn 3 is so so clutch, I agree with this. If you're running four of, the first one is okay to drop turn three. Late game I've even +2'd, then dropped another Ashiok to +2 if they are on the ropes.
UB was the control deck of choice at the PT. A ton of pros are running it, but the Andrew Cuneo Channel Fireball guys have Perilous Vault and Cifka built the most hyper-metagamed list against big dumb green decks. They've went 0-6 in the feature matches, so far.
Cifka's list has 4 Despise and 2 Thoughtseize maindeck...alongside 4 Disdainful stroke. Of course the 8-0 decks are aggro, and not green devotion.
Metagame has been pretty harsh to them so far, the deck IS very good against Gx Midrange but that's rather irrelevant when everyone is on Aggro/Combo/Burn.
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Metagame has been pretty harsh to them so far, the deck IS very good against Gx Midrange but that's rather irrelevant when everyone is on Aggro/Combo/Burn.
Were also great against Mardu control and even stronger against them after side boarding. I'm not sold on Prognostic Sphinx it just does not pull the weight it's predecessor did. It's always just sitting there eating removal for you to discard a card or lose it. I might try a different option then everyone else with Stormtide Leviathan since it shuts off aggro completely and also out burn range once it's cast. I have a GPT to go to so i'll give you the results with what happens.
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Standard: No Time
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
Your finisher is not the issue here and Stormtide Leviathan does little to address the real problems this deck is having atm. I actually quite like Pearl Lake Ancient tbh, but again, this seems rather a case where the answers simply matched up poorly to the threats being played.
That and the bizarre choice to in some cases run upward of 16 ETB tapped lands. Either they simply did not expect Jeskai Tempo and Aggro to be as prevalent as is or they simply wrote those MU's off as not winnable in the first place.
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The burn/aggro/tempo whatever the **** you want to call it matchup is pretty terrible, I'd say... played against it a couple of times online, can't manage to win it. Of course, that's a small sample.
I don't actually think the combo matchup is all that bad, if you have 4 Thoughtseize/4 Negate/4 Dissolve you can generally disrupt the deck reasonably well. I'd call it 70/30 for them game 1, 60/40 for us in game 2 and 3.
It's funny, since the UB deck keeps losing on camera everyone seems down on it, but it must be at least reasonably good to be getting into those matchups.
Hmm these control decks at the PT suuurrreee look familiar. Strange, they're running an unplayable win condition and these HORRIBLE life gain lands. There's no way that U/B pure control is any good with pearl lake ancient and aetherspouts is garbo and jace's ingenuity is so bad. I mean seriously, u/b is so horrible that you just MUST splash another color like green or white or red, or all of them. In fact you should just be playing mono red because u/b is just not able to deal with anything ever. There's no chance anybody can do well with such a bad deck.......
....oh wait........
Looks like I found my standard deck this season. #SuckIt
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And on that day, Garfield said unto the world "Go ye forth and durdle!"
Hmm these control decks at the PT suuurrreee look familiar. Strange, they're running an unplayable win condition and these HORRIBLE life gain lands. There's no way that U/B pure control is any good with pearl lake ancient and aetherspouts is garbo and jace's ingenuity is so bad. I mean seriously, u/b is so horrible that you just MUST splash another color like green or white or red, or all of them. In fact you should just be playing mono red because u/b is just not able to deal with anything ever. There's no chance anybody can do well with such a bad deck.......
....oh wait........
Looks like I found my standard deck this season. #SuckIt
I'm right there with ya'! I was getting pretty disappointed with control not being in the meta, thank you based Owen Turtenwald.
I played Mono-Black Devotion last block and will probably be playing U/B Control this block. I think I should just follow whatever deck Owen Turtenwald is playing, we must think alike.
Floch and Turtenwalds decks are actually quite different... I am looking for to channelfireballs deck overviews this week to see if they will show some more insight into thier choices.
I hope I can decide on a list before game day... It is so hard to let Ashiok and Thoughtsieze go and sagu mauler really that good that I'll splash it when the other options are so bad.... i don't have the money for any more dig through times so I'll have to make do with 2... but jace's ingueity is available.
Both Ashiok and Thoughtseize is just not where I want to be after watching the Pro Tour unfold this weekend. If burn becomes more popular than it already is then that significantly changed the way I'll go about building this deck. The real irony here is that while Dig through Time might have been established as one of if not our best cards, it's even BETTER coming out of the Jeskai Tempo lists as it gives them even more gas to go with their already faster clock.
I really like Sphinx right now against the field and even without Ashiok we're still favored against most Gx Midrange decks and ridiculously favored against control mirrors. I'm not sure how bad the Burn MU is after their recent adaption of Dig through Time but I feel confident that after testing some number of Murk Lurker backed up by Sphinx and a fistful of counters that staying two colors gives us a significant advantage over other control lists atm.
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Wow, it is nuts how much PLA increased over the last 24 hrs. Glad I got my set while they were dirt cheap. Even online they went from $0.25 to $4.75 in a matter of a day. I mean, its like a one of, maybe two.
I think the CFB Pantheon team list is waaaaay better than Cifka's. It seems like it is more adaptive to different game states, cause of the inclusion of perilous vault. Going forward it is not likely going to be the exact 75 you want, it only has like 4 Dissolve main and the rest is removal save for 4 Dig and 3 Ingenuity 1 PLA. It looked like there was a few thoughtseize in there too but those may not be the best choice either. Considering how the top 8 plays out we may have to tweak the list to give more respect to Jeskai Wins decks game 1. Some number of negate main seems like a good move cause it hits the cheap burn and sets us up for potential mirror matches. Perhaps a Dissipate or two main would help also. So, even though I am not sold on Thoughtseize main yet, 2-3 Thoughtseize, 3 Negate, 4 Dissolve, 0-2 Dissipate/Cancel, the rest would be draw and removal with 1-2 PLA and/or Empty the pits. Going forward, 4 Dig looked good on camera but in practice may be excessive. they clogged Owen's opening hand a few times, three seems like a more manageable number. They are good but no Revelation. I would go 3-4 Ingenuity and 3 Dig with some number of Font or other cheap manipulation spell (i miss telling time now).
Wow, it is nuts how much PLA increased over the last 24 hrs. Glad I got my set while they were dirt cheap. Even online they went from $0.25 to $4.75 in a matter of a day. I mean, its like a one of, maybe two.
I think the CFB Pantheon team list is waaaaay better than Cifka's. It seems like it is more adaptive to different game states, cause of the inclusion of perilous vault. Going forward it is not likely going to be the exact 75 you want, it only has like 4 Dissolve main and the rest is removal save for 4 Dig and 3 Ingenuity 1 PLA. It looked like there was a few thoughtseize in there too but those may not be the best choice either. Considering how the top 8 plays out we may have to tweak the list to give more respect to Jeskai Wins decks game 1. Some number of negate main seems like a good move cause it hits the cheap burn and sets us up for potential mirror matches. Perhaps a Dissipate or two main would help also. So, even though I am not sold on Thoughtseize main yet, 2-3 Thoughtseize, 3 Negate, 4 Dissolve, 0-2 Dissipate/Cancel, the rest would be draw and removal with 1-2 PLA and/or Empty the pits. Going forward, 4 Dig looked good on camera but in practice may be excessive. they clogged Owen's opening hand a few times, three seems like a more manageable number. They are good but no Revelation. I would go 3-4 Ingenuity and 3 Dig with some number of Font or other cheap manipulation spell (i miss telling time now).
Wow, it is nuts how much PLA increased over the last 24 hrs. Glad I got my set while they were dirt cheap. Even online they went from $0.25 to $4.75 in a matter of a day. I mean, its like a one of, maybe two.
I think the CFB Pantheon team list is waaaaay better than Cifka's. It seems like it is more adaptive to different game states, cause of the inclusion of perilous vault. Going forward it is not likely going to be the exact 75 you want, it only has like 4 Dissolve main and the rest is removal save for 4 Dig and 3 Ingenuity 1 PLA. It looked like there was a few thoughtseize in there too but those may not be the best choice either. Considering how the top 8 plays out we may have to tweak the list to give more respect to Jeskai Wins decks game 1. Some number of negate main seems like a good move cause it hits the cheap burn and sets us up for potential mirror matches. Perhaps a Dissipate or two main would help also. So, even though I am not sold on Thoughtseize main yet, 2-3 Thoughtseize, 3 Negate, 4 Dissolve, 0-2 Dissipate/Cancel, the rest would be draw and removal with 1-2 PLA and/or Empty the pits. Going forward, 4 Dig looked good on camera but in practice may be excessive. they clogged Owen's opening hand a few times, three seems like a more manageable number. They are good but no Revelation. I would go 3-4 Ingenuity and 3 Dig with some number of Font or other cheap manipulation spell (i miss telling time now).
Is his list posted somewhere?
Not that I have found, this info is based off everything I could find regarding the matches with the deck and various comments by either the players of the match or the commentators themselves.
I have been playing this deck, but with a light splash of red in the mana base and sideboarding Keranos, God of Storms rather successfully. He's just so hard to beat.
I actually have grown attached to Returned Phalanx. Same CMC, can profitably block or trade with most of the important threats in standard. Specifically it trades with Rabblemaster and War-Named Aspirant, as well as eating 2/2s.
And the Returned Phalanx beatdown is real after you have gained control of the game.
4 Sign in Blood
4 Dig Through Time
4 Thoughtseize
4 Dissolve
4 Hero's Downfall
2 Drown in Sorrow
2 Murderous Cut
2 Dissipate
2 Bile Blight
Artifacts
2 Perilous Vault
1 Pearl Lake Ancient
2 Prognostic Sphinx
Planeswalkers
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Lands
4 Island
3 Swamp
1 Evolving Wilds
4 Polluted Delta
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Dismal Backwater
4 Radiant Fountain
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Despise
2 Drown in Sorrow
2 Negate
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Pharika's Cure
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Clever Impersonator
1 Perilous Vault
1 Empty the Pits
Testing so far and the deck is extremely solid.
Radiant Fountain + Dismal Backwater is the real deal. They both allow you to Thoughtseize and Sign in Blood very aggressively.
Prognostic Sphinx + Dig Through Time is also very good, with Sphinx allowing you to scry garbage away for better hits, as well as being a discard outlet for the Delve. Typically, I play out about 8-9 lands and then either discard them to protect Sphinx, while holding up counters or don't draw them at all because of Sphinx + Dig.
Sideboard needs more testing, so right now its mostly a guessing game. Not sure about Empty the Pits.
Jamming an Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver turn 3 is so so clutch, I agree with this. If you're running four of, the first one is okay to drop turn three. Late game I've even +2'd, then dropped another Ashiok to +2 if they are on the ropes.
Cifka's list has 4 Despise and 2 Thoughtseize maindeck...alongside 4 Disdainful stroke. Of course the 8-0 decks are aggro, and not green devotion.
Were also great against Mardu control and even stronger against them after side boarding. I'm not sold on Prognostic Sphinx it just does not pull the weight it's predecessor did. It's always just sitting there eating removal for you to discard a card or lose it. I might try a different option then everyone else with Stormtide Leviathan since it shuts off aggro completely and also out burn range once it's cast. I have a GPT to go to so i'll give you the results with what happens.
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
That and the bizarre choice to in some cases run upward of 16 ETB tapped lands. Either they simply did not expect Jeskai Tempo and Aggro to be as prevalent as is or they simply wrote those MU's off as not winnable in the first place.
Cruel Control
Niv-Mizzet EDH
Cruel Tezz
I don't actually think the combo matchup is all that bad, if you have 4 Thoughtseize/4 Negate/4 Dissolve you can generally disrupt the deck reasonably well. I'd call it 70/30 for them game 1, 60/40 for us in game 2 and 3.
It's funny, since the UB deck keeps losing on camera everyone seems down on it, but it must be at least reasonably good to be getting into those matchups.
I think the deck's burn matchup is terrible, also. Especially so if you run cards like Despise and Thoughtseize.
Not until tomorrow.
Modern: RW Burn
....oh wait........
Looks like I found my standard deck this season. #SuckIt
I'm right there with ya'! I was getting pretty disappointed with control not being in the meta, thank you based Owen Turtenwald.
I played Mono-Black Devotion last block and will probably be playing U/B Control this block. I think I should just follow whatever deck Owen Turtenwald is playing, we must think alike.
EDIT: Here is Cifka's deck from the deck tech.
4 Despise
2 Thoughtseize
4 Dissolve
4 Disdainful Stroke
4 Hero's Downfall
3 Bile Blight
2 Drown in Sorrow
2 Silence the Believers
4 Dig Through Time
Creatures
4 Prognostic Sphinx
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Dismal Backwater
1 Temple of Mystery
1 Temple of Malady
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Island
4 Swamp
2 Drown in Sorrow
1 Bile Blight
1 Pharika's Cure
1 Silence the Believers
3 Clever Impersonator
2 Returned Phalanx
2 Negate
1 Thoughtseize
1 Set Adrift
1 Pearl Lake Ancient
I'm liking Owen's deck better, with Perilous Vault and Pearl Lake Ancients in the main.
U Mono U Tron
WR Boros Burn with one Stomping Ground
UR Storm
C Eldrazi Powder
G Mono Green Tron
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/ptktk/top-8-decklists-2014-10-11
I hope I can decide on a list before game day... It is so hard to let Ashiok and Thoughtsieze go and sagu mauler really that good that I'll splash it when the other options are so bad.... i don't have the money for any more dig through times so I'll have to make do with 2... but jace's ingueity is available.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
I really like Sphinx right now against the field and even without Ashiok we're still favored against most Gx Midrange decks and ridiculously favored against control mirrors. I'm not sure how bad the Burn MU is after their recent adaption of Dig through Time but I feel confident that after testing some number of Murk Lurker backed up by Sphinx and a fistful of counters that staying two colors gives us a significant advantage over other control lists atm.
I think the CFB Pantheon team list is waaaaay better than Cifka's. It seems like it is more adaptive to different game states, cause of the inclusion of perilous vault. Going forward it is not likely going to be the exact 75 you want, it only has like 4 Dissolve main and the rest is removal save for 4 Dig and 3 Ingenuity 1 PLA. It looked like there was a few thoughtseize in there too but those may not be the best choice either. Considering how the top 8 plays out we may have to tweak the list to give more respect to Jeskai Wins decks game 1. Some number of negate main seems like a good move cause it hits the cheap burn and sets us up for potential mirror matches. Perhaps a Dissipate or two main would help also. So, even though I am not sold on Thoughtseize main yet, 2-3 Thoughtseize, 3 Negate, 4 Dissolve, 0-2 Dissipate/Cancel, the rest would be draw and removal with 1-2 PLA and/or Empty the pits. Going forward, 4 Dig looked good on camera but in practice may be excessive. they clogged Owen's opening hand a few times, three seems like a more manageable number. They are good but no Revelation. I would go 3-4 Ingenuity and 3 Dig with some number of Font or other cheap manipulation spell (i miss telling time now).
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Cremate
4 Think Twice
3 Forbbiden Alchemy
3 Syncopate
3 Psychic Strike
2 Negate
3 Dimir Charm
3 Tragic Slip
3 Tribute to Hunger
3 Mutilate
2 Vanishment
3 Evolving Wilds
4 Watery Grave
4 Drowned Catacomb
3 Island
8 Swamp
Is his list posted somewhere?
Not that I have found, this info is based off everything I could find regarding the matches with the deck and various comments by either the players of the match or the commentators themselves.
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Cremate
4 Think Twice
3 Forbbiden Alchemy
3 Syncopate
3 Psychic Strike
2 Negate
3 Dimir Charm
3 Tragic Slip
3 Tribute to Hunger
3 Mutilate
2 Vanishment
3 Evolving Wilds
4 Watery Grave
4 Drowned Catacomb
3 Island
8 Swamp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtZQZRKtZDw