My only gripe with the list is I'd rather have that Stratus Dancer be a Negate. It's a fine card don't get me wrong, but if I'm on the draw against the mirror, I'd rather just have negate.
Not me, I like Stratus Dancer quite a bit. If it hits the board, they have to spend two resources to deal with it, and it is a reasonably effective clock. Negate can be countered, Stratus Dancer flipping cannot.
I could definitely be wrong. Its possible it could be right to play both as a 1/1 split too. I've played with stratus dancer and loved it, but I also really love negate.
I'll test it with just status dancer and see how it goes.
Negate hitting walkers, artifacts, and enchantments cannot be ignored. I have yet trying to play stratus dancer, but I can see how it could work like a vault. Everyone trying to play around it, because I don't think there is much doubt as to what the morph in control is.
My meta it's ridden with abzan, green, red and a couple of control decks. I'm a little more counter heavy and believe me, change dissolve for dissipate or make a split; works wonders against Den Protector-Deathmist Raptor combo.
Just come back from a standard where I was driving my classic no dragon control deck list above, finished 4th with 2 losses. First one was a 1-2 against mono RDW. I nearly had game 3, with 6 land down, Bile Blight, Price, FTI and Downfall in hand, him with 2 tokens and a Denzien. He top decked a Stoke the Flames with me on 4... Other loss was against some RG thing I'd not seen. It wasn't strict Atarka Red as he was playing Elvish Mystics. Lost game 1 heavily after misinterpreting his sigh of disappointment over a Mystic. I thought he was mana screwed and playing some other RG deck, so got rid of it as it dropped. Then came a Rabblemaster and Dragon Fodder. Game over 2 turns later. Second game had none of my SB cards come up, and got mana flooded.
Things I'm considering changing:
1. Replace my 2 Dissipates with Stratus Dancers - no extra mana cost to cast, less to flip, plus possible token blockers even as the morph. Loses out on countering creatures though...
2. Move to Dragon control, run Silumgars and Mindscour Dragons for milling, especially with the mirror and use 4 Scorn/2 Dissolve.
3. Running less Anticipate, adding in either the 4th Dig, or a second Ingenuity (so 10 draw).
We'll see. More new cards going in to the deck this week (another Vault, Aetherspouts), then another round of standard at a different store for FNM which has a meta of usually R(g)DW or Dragon/Esper control heavy with some Abzan Aggro.
PVDR's inclusion of Ashioks in Esper Dragons seems like it will be optimal moving forward. Raptors and Den Protectors are essentially in every competitive deck that isn't Mono/Atarka Red and Esper Dragons (bar Mardu/Jeskai which are pretty easy match ups). I would even add a 2nd Ashiok in the main swapping it with a Foul-Tongue. I recently played a Bant Midrange deck and it really put the hurt on with the opponent conceding just a few turns after the turn 3 casting in both games.
It also might be time to take out the Dissolves for Dissipates as the Esper Dragons list has the same amount of scry excluding Dissolves as the traditional UB list did before DTK. Exiling has moved up in the priority list.
I think walkers dilute this deck's plan of attack; that said, I've always liked playing Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver and it's well-poised right now. The question to me is if it's worth removing the Ugin, the Spirit Dragon to add in Ashiok as PVDDR does. Seems to be a tradeoff between early-game potential and late-game potential.
Dissipate is a good idea, I forgot it was even standard. What happens when your opponent starts morphing everything? You can't Dissipate them all.
My first thoughts were Devouring Light and Utter End. Neither seem promising; double white isn't always available, and 4 feels like too much for a 1-for-1. For the situation, maybe Utter End feels like it could be worth it, Raptor is worth 3+ cards in some games.
Not knowing your list I changed my adrian sullivan list to a one quite close to yours (see below). How is PLA doing for you? I never liked it except for the mirror and probably prefer to play 3 Ashiok main.
Sullivan didn't do too well the last grand prix, too bad that he wasn't on feature match - I'd have loved to see him play some games with all his scry lands and take notes on how he makes use of liliana vess...
True we played almost the same deck!.
PLA was never my favourite card, but I still keep him in the deck because of his inevitability against control decks (Sometimes the best way to win against them is to play around his removals until you reach the place where PLA enters and win in some turns) and because it can give you valuable lives against decks who got controlled but have reach (Minired, Jeskai, some RG and Rhinos decks...). In my list I only run 4-5 counterspells maindeck and sometimes that rhino will ETB...
I played a lot with Liliana but I finally put her back because it was too slow against aggro and wasnt very useful against control (and if you ever play liliana facing an ashiok you will know :P). Anyways it isnt a bad card, but if the meta is full of Atarka red...
Finally Im thinking about doing some changes for next pptq this sunday:
+1 Silence the Believers -1 Ultimate price (I know is always nice to kill a dragon paying 2, but lot of the times I found price almost useless, and Silence great, specially against den protector decks like whidisi or abzan)
Maybe Replace some Dissolves for Dissipates in order to shut down annoying recursion mechanics like Dragon lands, Raptors, or Den protectors.
Making a better SB against Minired/Atarka Red strategies... I still dont know if Drown in Sorrow is what we want against them, lot of the times it felt dead against the 1/2 with prowess or facing dash creatures. Im thinking about puting more Jorubais, Pharikas Cure or going tottally nuts with Omenspeakers and Masters of waves...
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Perhaps this is just a non-constructive post, so I'll apologize in advance. But...why do Ashioks over Ojutais make you feel like you're playing a "pure control" deck?
Maybe if Ojutai was an Ophidian that did no damage when it triggered, he'd be a "pure control" card? Or if Ashiok put tokens in play with his plus instead of being pure variance-based, he'd be an "aggressive" card. The irony is, Ashiok is fundamentally a far more aggressive card than Ojutai. Ojutai gives you improved JTMS activations and Ashiok gives you nerfed Garruk activations. You can even pop Ojutai's ultimate after 4 activations. It reads: "Target opponent loses the game". I'd rank it somewhere between Karn and Tamiyo ultimates in regards to power level...
I'd also point out that you have the same number of Thoughtseize/counterspells, except yours are far crappier (Cancel instead of Counterspell). All the rest of the changes are things you could simply do to the Esper Dragons list. I personally run 2 Vaults in my maindeck, now. I also run 4 Bile Blights, 4 Downfall, etc. I guess it's just painful to see people still playing a deck so underpowered that R&D felt comfortable reprinting Counterspell. Ashiok is sideboard fodder at best, especially in a "pure control deck". A win-condition that doesn't draw cards or cycle through your deck? Doesn't exactly seem traditional. Why not replace it with a 4-5 mana permanent that spirals the game out of control while you hold up counterspells? You know, maybe a planeswalker, or like a creature with hexproof...
Ashiok is very well positioned right now due to the Dens/Raptors running amok. He is also a back breaker in the Esper Dragons mirror that gives you the chance of derailing your opponent quickly. I am main boarding 2 tonight for these reasons since my local meta is heavy on control and green. This is what I'm going with:
Perhaps this is just a non-constructive post, so I'll apologize in advance. But...why do Ashioks over Ojutais make you feel like you're playing a "pure control" deck?
Maybe if Ojutai was an Ophidian that did no damage when it triggered, he'd be a "pure control" card? Or if Ashiok put tokens in play with his plus instead of being pure variance-based, he'd be an "aggressive" card. The irony is, Ashiok is fundamentally a far more aggressive card than Ojutai. Ojutai gives you improved JTMS activations and Ashiok gives you nerfed Garruk activations. You can even pop Ojutai's ultimate after 4 activations. It reads: "Target opponent loses the game". I'd rank it somewhere between Karn and Tamiyo ultimates in regards to power level...
I'd also point out that you have the same number of Thoughtseize/counterspells, except yours are far crappier (Cancel instead of Counterspell). All the rest of the changes are things you could simply do to the Esper Dragons list. I personally run 2 Vaults in my maindeck, now. I also run 4 Bile Blights, 4 Downfall, etc. I guess it's just painful to see people still playing a deck so underpowered that R&D felt comfortable reprinting Counterspell. Ashiok is sideboard fodder at best, especially in a "pure control deck". A win-condition that doesn't draw cards or cycle through your deck? Doesn't exactly seem traditional. Why not replace it with a 4-5 mana permanent that spirals the game out of control while you hold up counterspells? You know, maybe a planeswalker, or like a creature with hexproof...
maybe his thought is he will ashiok their Ojutai and win the game?
I used to run 2 Ashiok maindeck (pre-Ojutai) and felt he was great against Abzan Aggro. He could play any creature in their deck without dying and they were often decent blockers. I can't call it for these den protector decks; I wouldn't want to pull a raptor out of exile, and Den Protector itself is smaller than everything else. I've only played against Raptor + Den Protector once in my area, so who knows. I think the problem with those decks are they just don't make it to the top tables.
I could see maindecking Ashiok just to over-metagame people. I tend to see mono-red, Esper/UB, and Green Devotion decks. Ashiok is rancid against Atarka Red, decent v. devotion, and almost pure cheese in the mirror match. Not worth it to me when it's all added up. At any rate simply running Pearl Lake and Ashiok in place of Dragons is going to require a serious replacement CA engine.
Why would you play utter end to fight raptors when you could just play Silence the Believers? Utter End is a really bad way to fight them, and on top of that you're only packing 6 white sources to cast it. I mean if you're really scared of those kinds of decks you could just find room for a couple Perilous Vaults. 3x Thoughtseize and 3x Hero's Downfall are fine as well. I'd go up to 4x Downfall if you expect a ton of Abzan Midrange, but other than that 3 are fine.
Ran the list from earlier in the week (see post 2016) at FNM tonight, with a couple of small changes. Took out an Anticipate, DLP, and 2 Ultimate Price, added in one each of Foul-Tongue, Perilous Vault, Aetherspouts and Jace's Ingenuity. Went 2-2 for the night, and finished 4th.
Round 1 - RG dragons. Early Ashiok, Ugin in hand. Countered/removed all that came through, eventually ultimated Ashiok. Down goes Toothless, play his Stormbreath Dragon, and swing for 7 a turn. G2, I go down to 12 with Eidolons hurting the counter spells, but out comes Toothless again, and he hit a land glut. 2-0
R2 - Abzan aggro ish (the eventual winner). Game 1, I mulligan to 6, and have a land flood. The opening hand has 4 land, turn 2 anticipate shows three land. His Thoughtseize takes a Vault. No removal, Brimaz and Anafenza do the work. G2, he managed to Thoughtseize both my Dragonlords, and I sideboarded out too many win cons. It was a strange game for an Aggro deck, as I was able to answer every threat he posted, but my lack of win-cons meant that I conceded when I had 4 cards left in my library. 0-2.
R3 - Mardu creatureless control. I had all the answers to everything he played, got Ugin out and whittled him down. He conceded and dropped after one round, so technically 2-0.
R4 - Temur Dragons. Ashiok lasted a few turns, took some damage, control worked, then out came Ugin and Toothless for the win. G2 he had a pair of Mistcutter Hydra and I had no removal. G3 got a little stuck with land, and died to a Savage Knuckleblade and Stormbreath. Realised on de-sideboarding that I'd put cards in after game 1 but never took them out, so was running a 67 card deck, so that probably had something to do with it... 1-2. Annoyingly, had I won that game, I would have grabbed 2nd.
However, I think that my card drawing worked pretty well (see rambling thoughts in earlier post), and I've talked myself out of going Dragon Control for now. I do, however, think that a second Haven (replacing a Swamp) would be nice, especially in games like round 2 where I lost all 3 Dragons. Also, I can see the bonus of Liliana (as run by Adrian Sullivan) as there were several times I was thinking "I could really do with X right now", so think I'll grab one of them too. Not sure what to put it on for, as the card draw worked well, and so did the counters. I may drop the second Ingenuity again as I'll still be giving myself a library manipulation tool with her -X.
I don't like the Thoughtseizes in the sideboard. I put them in for several games, but didn't cast them for wanting to keep life up. I think I'll try running a second Aetherspouts and a Silence the Believers instead.
Perhaps this is just a non-constructive post, so I'll apologize in advance. But...why do Ashioks over Ojutais make you feel like you're playing a "pure control" deck?
Maybe if Ojutai was an Ophidian that did no damage when it triggered, he'd be a "pure control" card? Or if Ashiok put tokens in play with his plus instead of being pure variance-based, he'd be an "aggressive" card. The irony is, Ashiok is fundamentally a far more aggressive card than Ojutai. Ojutai gives you improved JTMS activations and Ashiok gives you nerfed Garruk activations. You can even pop Ojutai's ultimate after 4 activations. It reads: "Target opponent loses the game". I'd rank it somewhere between Karn and Tamiyo ultimates in regards to power level...
I'd also point out that you have the same number of Thoughtseize/counterspells, except yours are far crappier (Cancel instead of Counterspell). All the rest of the changes are things you could simply do to the Esper Dragons list. I personally run 2 Vaults in my maindeck, now. I also run 4 Bile Blights, 4 Downfall, etc. I guess it's just painful to see people still playing a deck so underpowered that R&D felt comfortable reprinting Counterspell. Ashiok is sideboard fodder at best, especially in a "pure control deck". A win-condition that doesn't draw cards or cycle through your deck? Doesn't exactly seem traditional. Why not replace it with a 4-5 mana permanent that spirals the game out of control while you hold up counterspells? You know, maybe a planeswalker, or like a creature with hexproof...
The Ashiok/Vault plan is far less proactive than Esper dragons. With Esper, you often just cast Ojutai and race. It's a powerful card, but the Den Protector/Deathmist Raptor package is something the deck really doesn't have a good answer to.
Ashiok's stock has risen now that Downfalls are less prevalent; it's good against green decks and it's good against the mirror. Not only do all of these decks have targets for the minus ability, but I win as many games through slowly exiling their library as I do with creatures that I take. It's a cheap wincon that is more powerful than it looks.
Silumgar's Scorn and Foul-Tongue Invocation are big losses, for sure, but I think there are reasons to prefer dragonless: you blank all of the edict effects that are good against Esper, the mana is better, you can leverage the exile effects (Vault, Ashiok, Silence) and have actual answers against enchantments and these recurring creatures, you are better suited for the control mirror mainboard.
Hey guys/gals. SO Esper not as good anymore? I see a lot of posts saying they're going back to Straight up U/B control. If its the Den/Raptor package, can't we tune Esper to include more exile effects? Might make the deck worse against mono red, but hey, it's a weekly adaption now.
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I do agree that Disdainful Stroke and Ultimate Price are optional. I've cut both from my list and have yet to feel like it has hurt me. Decks running mono-color creatures are either RDW or Jurassic Den, UP isn't very good against either. However the 4-2-1 is interesting, I am without the singleton as stated before but I may look at adding it back.
I find it interesting that UP has been so marginal, but it has remained in the 75. I suppose if I was to directly compare my list I would say I have gone -1 UP, +1 Foul-Tongue for the full 4 main. The difference has not felt like it hurt at all.
Dissipate as an answer to the recursion mechanics feels like a pretty poor answer. You may get the first Raptor, but you'll see only morphed creatures after that. Silence the Believers is likely the best route to getting rid of the Raptor engine. Exiling the first one probably saves you 2-3 cards, the second probably 1-2; by "saves cards" I mean cards they are not gaining.
Are we really cutting Thoughtseize? That card is great in control mirrors, and both decks you reference still have a 2/2 split between boards.
Right now I'm running 3 Anticipate, 1 DTT, 2 Prerogative. I'm thinking about going 3, 2, 1 respectively. Prerogative has been a huge boon in control mirrors and those random games where I find my hand is empty. Is there a glaring reason Prerogative has seen little play in G1? I do see a 1 of in the sideboard of both decks you've posted. I wonder if we can just cut a single DTT, main the Prerogative and add a card to our board. Thoughts?
For reference:
A few choices specifically for my meta; Radiant Purge for Abzan/Sidisi garbage, Utter End to fight Walkers and Raptors; Radiant Purge has been pretty useful against Abzan aggro, it's the Ultimate Price that match up needs. I have not tried Tasugur in any capacity yet, but whenever I see him I've not been impressed. Essentially my mana base is +3 White, -2 Blue; I'm probably going to -1 Koilos, +1 Confluence to make +3 White, -1 Blue compared to the lists you posted.
So, I played a 4 round Tournament today and it was really frustrating. It was my first outing with the deck so I can't say I played that bad, but...Esper has some really bad match ups.
2-2 Overall
Mirror:
2-0
I prepared a lot for this match up and (reading articles and posts here). Stole his Ugin with Silumgar and Ultimate it first game. Game 2 I bring in Ashkiok, cast him T3 and is snowballs for him from there.
Vs Abzan Midrange: 2-1
I answered his stuff 1 for 1 and tried to stay ahead via CA. It always feels like this deck is favored, but Ojutai paved the way and Silungar, the Drifting Death is fantastic in this match.
Vs Mardu Tokens 0-2 Loss
I got obliterated. Not enough answers and he ripped my hand apart via Thoughtseize, Duress and Mardu Charm. This match up feels really bad for the deck. The early discard, kills control, all the tapped lands didn't help , and when scorn if turned off you are pretty much dead in the water. He set-up his 3 drops well and rabblemaster's came down to put the pressure on (He'd taken my counters right out and DTT). Crackling Doom = Anti Dragon card.
Vs Abzan Control 1-2 Loss
This match up is not favorable. They have more draw then we do, and we can only counter so much, I felt like he always had CA from someplace. Eitehr Graveyard, (Tasigur), or his 8 Draw Spells (Charms, and Read the Bones ). Let's not mention his own Thoughtseize and walker suite it almost feels like there is not enough to answer them. I win game 2 off the back of DL Silumgar (Stole Elspeth and Ultimate her). Other than that, he T1 and T2 Thoughtseize and pretty much put me Behind from there. Is this where we bring in our own Tasigur? Just feels like I should be bringing this is but they have so much removal is feels like he's a target, and I'd rather draw more and sculpt my hand to answer their threats. They fire off so much draw, theis deck has beaten me a lot, I managed to win when I was running the PLA Vault version of U/B.
So maybe it's time to go back to the good ol, U/B control with PLA and Ashiok's as threats. That version played 8 counters and more draw, I never felt like I got rolled as hard as I did i my last 2 matches. I'm lucky I avoided the RDW matches, as those are almost unwinnable G1.
I do agree that Disdainful Stroke and Ultimate Price are optional. I've cut both from my list and have yet to feel like it has hurt me. Decks running mono-color creatures are either RDW or Jurassic Den, UP isn't very good against either. However the 4-2-1 is interesting, I am without the singleton as stated before but I may look at adding it back.
I find it interesting that UP has been so marginal, but it has remained in the 75. I suppose if I was to directly compare my list I would say I have gone -1 UP, +1 Foul-Tongue for the full 4 main. The difference has not felt like it hurt at all.
Dissipate as an answer to the recursion mechanics feels like a pretty poor answer. You may get the first Raptor, but you'll see only morphed creatures after that. Silence the Believers is likely the best route to getting rid of the Raptor engine. Exiling the first one probably saves you 2-3 cards, the second probably 1-2; by "saves cards" I mean cards they are not gaining.
Are we really cutting Thoughtseize? That card is great in control mirrors, and both decks you reference still have a 2/2 split between boards.
Right now I'm running 3 Anticipate, 1 DTT, 2 Prerogative. I'm thinking about going 3, 2, 1 respectively. Prerogative has been a huge boon in control mirrors and those random games where I find my hand is empty. Is there a glaring reason Prerogative has seen little play in G1? I do see a 1 of in the sideboard of both decks you've posted. I wonder if we can just cut a single DTT, main the Prerogative and add a card to our board. Thoughts?
For reference:
A few choices specifically for my meta; Radiant Purge for Abzan/Sidisi garbage, Utter End to fight Walkers and Raptors; Radiant Purge has been pretty useful against Abzan aggro, it's the Ultimate Price that match up needs. I have not tried Tasugur in any capacity yet, but whenever I see him I've not been impressed. Essentially my mana base is +3 White, -2 Blue; I'm probably going to -1 Koilos, +1 Confluence to make +3 White, -1 Blue compared to the lists you posted.
I think you will REALLY want to go up to 3 Dig through Time. It's always what you want to draw late-game. I actually like dragonlord's prerogative also; I MD 1 (I run 3 dig so there's a 3-1 draw split) but 2 can clog the hand. The deck fuels delve well, might as well use it. Dig leads to such awesome plays when you have a lot of mana to work with late game, digging up counters in response and firing them off is good fun.
Unrelated note, I did want to ask generally about how people sideboard vs. Abzan variants? As mentioned in the post above (racerxen), Thoughtseize, Duress and Mardu Charms [edit: i meant abzan charm, but mardu charm can be annoying too] to draw cards are powerful against us. What do you find powerful against them? The aggro variety, even, gave me issues, with Rakshasa Deathdealer and Fleecemane Lion often slipping below the counters, and regen and monstrous abilities are problematic.
Instant Duress mode via Mardu Charm can be game ending if followed up by more discard on Mardu's part. The only real draw back to playing Mardu is that if they don't get a good opening hand they can flood out and go into top deck mode. They bring in Chandra and Outpost Siege to draw more, and get CA. When I played Mardu, the biggest weakness was simply drawing a decent hand but losing gas early. The token version actually makes use of 11-12 Discard Effects.
Vs Abzan control, I think Tasigur is a major issue as he tends to resolve after they force us to deal with Lions early discard. If they take DTT or an Anticipate we fall behind really fast. Soultion might be to up the counter suite, and bring in Negate and Disdainful Stroke to counter the draw. There might even be a reason for us to go the other route and become the disruption deck on the draw. Which means adding Duress to the deck.
Yasook's SB was really well thought-out and I have been looking to that SB for some ideas lately. I'm cutting Anticipate, I can't stand that card at times, the deck plays 8 scry lands, and a dragon that gives us the effect. Card draw is huge Mid to late game.
G2 vs Abzan Control I boarded in all my 4 Thoughtseize, 1 Perilous Vault and Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver. That seemed to be the right play and that match went long, like I said DL Silumgar stole the match and baby Silumgar can simply crush them. Once they board in their card draw in the play, and go into disruption mode it feels rough. Hence, I think the deck needs to run Jace's Ingenuity.
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If you're going to run Flooded Strand without a Plains to fetch, why not just make it an island? I'd rather save the life, the deck thinning is insignificant when we have all this Scry and Dig.
Can you elaborate this a little? I play one Anticipate and am a little unsure what to do when I get thoughtseized or something similar. Hasn't occured yet and is very situational of course...
I use to play 1 Divination next to an Anticipate (and an Ingenuity) to smooth out my draws, keep hitting land drops, get into smowballing card advantage quicker and mitigate some hand disruption. Feels good for me, though I can see that the power level of the card is indeed very low, but so is anticipate too I think and draw 2 and pick 1 out of 3 are very different effects that don't look interchangable to my mind.
Certainly very different effects and different costs. The question of whether to anticipate in response to a thoughtseize is very dependent on what is already in your hand. Anticipate on its own is fairly inconspicuous, but if you're trying to protect a card I'd say cast it if you have mana to dig and counter the hand intrusion. If you think they'll take the Anticipate, fire it off and pull a land, I've done it once and just made my opponent shock them self looking at my hand full of lands; you also gain a little knowledge about what's where in your deck.
The difference between Anticipate and Divination is massive, I'm afraid. Anticipate can be done EoT, so you can hold mana for answers while keeping tempo. Divination is basically going to force you to have 6 lands in play to hold even one answer's worth of mana. Anticipate can just be played much earlier in the game where Divination is slow and makes mana awkward. I've seen a couple decks use Weave Fate, but I don't recommend it; may as well use Jace's Ingenuity, but then you may as well use Dragonlord's Prerogative or DTT and now you're back on page with the rest of us. Anticipate just has early game relevance where all the others are mid to late game.
My biggest gripe about Anticipate is that I feel like I lose tempo over playing it, if it were just an answer I'd not have lost tempo and I'd have the same number of cards in my hand after resolution. A few times Anticipate feels like " spend 1U get an answer... maybe?" which is not how I want to feel most of the time. On the other hand, I do find myself fixing mana with it and that actually works pretty well. Some EoT Anticipate, get a land, untap, upkeep, draw, temple, pass; a decent T2 through T4.
I could definitely be wrong. Its possible it could be right to play both as a 1/1 split too. I've played with stratus dancer and loved it, but I also really love negate.
I'll test it with just status dancer and see how it goes.
I've been playing this list with a lot of success:
Deck: Esper Control DTK
//main
4 Temple of Enlightenment
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Polluted Delta
4 Island
3 Swamp
2 Dig Through Time
2 Anticipate
2 Dragonlord Ojutai
4 Silumgar's Scorn
2 Ultimate Price
2 Silumgar, the Drifting Death
2 Dissolve
2 Crux of Fate
4 Hero's Downfall
2 Utter End
2 Foul-Tongue Invocation
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Dismal Backwater
2 Bile Blight
1 Dragonlord's Prerogative
3 Dissipate
2 Radiant Fountain
1 Dragonlord Silumgar
//Sideboard
1 Virulent Plague
2 Thoughtseize
3 Drown in Sorrow
1 Foul-Tongue Invocation
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Bile Blight
2 Risen Executioner
1 Ultimate Price
Display deck statistics
My meta it's ridden with abzan, green, red and a couple of control decks. I'm a little more counter heavy and believe me, change dissolve for dissipate or make a split; works wonders against Den Protector-Deathmist Raptor combo.
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Radiant Fountain
2 Opulent Palace
2 Evolving Wilds
2 Polluted Delta
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Dismal Backwater
4 Island
5 Swamp
Counters (6)
2 Dissipate
4 Dissolve
Draw spells (9)
1 Jace's Ingenuity
1 Dragonlord's Prerogative
3 Dig Through Time
4 Anticipate
1 Perilous Vault
1 Foul-Tongue Invocation
1 Drown in Sorrow
2 Ultimate Price
2 Crux of Fate
3 Bile Blight
3 Hero's Downfall
Win-cons and Walkers (5)
1 Silumgar, the Drifting Death
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Bile Blight
1 Pearl Lake Ancient
2 Jorubai Murk Lurker
2 Drown in Sorrow
2 Thoughtseize
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Dragonlord Silumgar
3 Pharika's Cure
Just come back from a standard where I was driving my classic no dragon control deck list above, finished 4th with 2 losses. First one was a 1-2 against mono RDW. I nearly had game 3, with 6 land down, Bile Blight, Price, FTI and Downfall in hand, him with 2 tokens and a Denzien. He top decked a Stoke the Flames with me on 4... Other loss was against some RG thing I'd not seen. It wasn't strict Atarka Red as he was playing Elvish Mystics. Lost game 1 heavily after misinterpreting his sigh of disappointment over a Mystic. I thought he was mana screwed and playing some other RG deck, so got rid of it as it dropped. Then came a Rabblemaster and Dragon Fodder. Game over 2 turns later. Second game had none of my SB cards come up, and got mana flooded.
Things I'm considering changing:
1. Replace my 2 Dissipates with Stratus Dancers - no extra mana cost to cast, less to flip, plus possible token blockers even as the morph. Loses out on countering creatures though...
2. Move to Dragon control, run Silumgars and Mindscour Dragons for milling, especially with the mirror and use 4 Scorn/2 Dissolve.
3. Running less Anticipate, adding in either the 4th Dig, or a second Ingenuity (so 10 draw).
We'll see. More new cards going in to the deck this week (another Vault, Aetherspouts), then another round of standard at a different store for FNM which has a meta of usually R(g)DW or Dragon/Esper control heavy with some Abzan Aggro.
It also might be time to take out the Dissolves for Dissipates as the Esper Dragons list has the same amount of scry excluding Dissolves as the traditional UB list did before DTK. Exiling has moved up in the priority list.
Agree on splitting dissolve/dissipate
My first thoughts were Devouring Light and Utter End. Neither seem promising; double white isn't always available, and 4 feels like too much for a 1-for-1. For the situation, maybe Utter End feels like it could be worth it, Raptor is worth 3+ cards in some games.
"Reveal a Dragon"
True we played almost the same deck!.
PLA was never my favourite card, but I still keep him in the deck because of his inevitability against control decks (Sometimes the best way to win against them is to play around his removals until you reach the place where PLA enters and win in some turns) and because it can give you valuable lives against decks who got controlled but have reach (Minired, Jeskai, some RG and Rhinos decks...). In my list I only run 4-5 counterspells maindeck and sometimes that rhino will ETB...
I played a lot with Liliana but I finally put her back because it was too slow against aggro and wasnt very useful against control (and if you ever play liliana facing an ashiok you will know :P). Anyways it isnt a bad card, but if the meta is full of Atarka red...
Finally Im thinking about doing some changes for next pptq this sunday:
+1 Silence the Believers -1 Ultimate price (I know is always nice to kill a dragon paying 2, but lot of the times I found price almost useless, and Silence great, specially against den protector decks like whidisi or abzan)
Maybe Replace some Dissolves for Dissipates in order to shut down annoying recursion mechanics like Dragon lands, Raptors, or Den protectors.
Making a better SB against Minired/Atarka Red strategies... I still dont know if Drown in Sorrow is what we want against them, lot of the times it felt dead against the 1/2 with prowess or facing dash creatures. Im thinking about puting more Jorubais, Pharikas Cure or going tottally nuts with Omenspeakers and Masters of waves...
XWU KCI Eggs
XBRG Lantern Control
Just dropped the thoughtsiezes to SB for 2 dissipates (no morph shall hit the board!!!!!)
4x Dismal Backwater
5x Island
2x Opulent Palace
4x Polluted Delta
3x Radiant Fountain
4x Swamp
4x Temple of Deceit
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Planeswalker (4)
3x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Artifact (3)
3x Perilous Vault
1x AEtherspouts
2x Anticipate
4x Bile Blight
4x Dig Through Time
2x Disdainful Stroke
4x Dissolve
1x Dragonlord's Prerogative
4x Hero's Downfall
1x Silence the Believers
1x Ultimate Price
Sorcery (2)
2x Thoughtseize
1x Disdainful Stroke
3x Drown in Sorrow
1x Duress
1x Encase in Ice
1x Pearl Lake Ancient
1x Pharika's Cure
1x Silence the Believers
2x Stratus Dancer
1x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2x Thoughtseize
1x Virulent Plague
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
Perhaps this is just a non-constructive post, so I'll apologize in advance. But...why do Ashioks over Ojutais make you feel like you're playing a "pure control" deck?
Maybe if Ojutai was an Ophidian that did no damage when it triggered, he'd be a "pure control" card? Or if Ashiok put tokens in play with his plus instead of being pure variance-based, he'd be an "aggressive" card. The irony is, Ashiok is fundamentally a far more aggressive card than Ojutai. Ojutai gives you improved JTMS activations and Ashiok gives you nerfed Garruk activations. You can even pop Ojutai's ultimate after 4 activations. It reads: "Target opponent loses the game". I'd rank it somewhere between Karn and Tamiyo ultimates in regards to power level...
I'd also point out that you have the same number of Thoughtseize/counterspells, except yours are far crappier (Cancel instead of Counterspell). All the rest of the changes are things you could simply do to the Esper Dragons list. I personally run 2 Vaults in my maindeck, now. I also run 4 Bile Blights, 4 Downfall, etc. I guess it's just painful to see people still playing a deck so underpowered that R&D felt comfortable reprinting Counterspell. Ashiok is sideboard fodder at best, especially in a "pure control deck". A win-condition that doesn't draw cards or cycle through your deck? Doesn't exactly seem traditional. Why not replace it with a 4-5 mana permanent that spirals the game out of control while you hold up counterspells? You know, maybe a planeswalker, or like a creature with hexproof...
3x Dragonlord Ojutai
2x Silumgar, the Drifting Death
1x Dragonlord Silumgar
Instant
4x Dig Through Time
2x Anticipate
4x Silumgar's Scorn
2x Dissolve
3x Bile Blight
3x Hero's Downfall
2x Foul-Tongue Invocation
Sorcery
2x Crux of Fate
3x Thoughtseize
2x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Land
4x Temple of Deceit
4x Temple of Enlightenment
4x Dismal Backwater
4x Polluted Delta
1x Flooded Strand
2x Haven of the Spirit Dragon
2x Caves of Koilos
3x Island
2x Swamp
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1x Dragonlord Silumgar
1x Stratus Dancer
3x Drown in Sorrow
1x Negate
1x Foul-Tongue Invocation
1x Thoughtseize
1x Duress
2x Dragonlord's Prerogative
2x Ultimate Price
I could see maindecking Ashiok just to over-metagame people. I tend to see mono-red, Esper/UB, and Green Devotion decks. Ashiok is rancid against Atarka Red, decent v. devotion, and almost pure cheese in the mirror match. Not worth it to me when it's all added up. At any rate simply running Pearl Lake and Ashiok in place of Dragons is going to require a serious replacement CA engine.
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Radiant Fountain
2 Opulent Palace
2 Evolving Wilds
2 Polluted Delta
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Dismal Backwater
4 Island
5 Swamp
Counters (6)
2 Dissipate
4 Dissolve
2 Jace's Ingenuity
3 Dig Through Time
3 Anticipate
Removal (14)
1 Drown in Sorrow
1 Ætherspouts
2 Perilous Vault
2 Foul-Tongue Invocation
2 Crux of Fate
3 Bile Blight
3 Hero's Downfall
Win-cons and Walkers (5)
1 Silumgar, the Drifting Death
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Bile Blight
1 Pearl Lake Ancient
2 Jorubai Murk Lurker
2 Drown in Sorrow
2 Thoughtseize
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Dragonlord Silumgar
3 Pharika's Cure
Ran the list from earlier in the week (see post 2016) at FNM tonight, with a couple of small changes. Took out an Anticipate, DLP, and 2 Ultimate Price, added in one each of Foul-Tongue, Perilous Vault, Aetherspouts and Jace's Ingenuity. Went 2-2 for the night, and finished 4th.
Round 1 - RG dragons. Early Ashiok, Ugin in hand. Countered/removed all that came through, eventually ultimated Ashiok. Down goes Toothless, play his Stormbreath Dragon, and swing for 7 a turn. G2, I go down to 12 with Eidolons hurting the counter spells, but out comes Toothless again, and he hit a land glut. 2-0
R2 - Abzan aggro ish (the eventual winner). Game 1, I mulligan to 6, and have a land flood. The opening hand has 4 land, turn 2 anticipate shows three land. His Thoughtseize takes a Vault. No removal, Brimaz and Anafenza do the work. G2, he managed to Thoughtseize both my Dragonlords, and I sideboarded out too many win cons. It was a strange game for an Aggro deck, as I was able to answer every threat he posted, but my lack of win-cons meant that I conceded when I had 4 cards left in my library. 0-2.
R3 - Mardu creatureless control. I had all the answers to everything he played, got Ugin out and whittled him down. He conceded and dropped after one round, so technically 2-0.
R4 - Temur Dragons. Ashiok lasted a few turns, took some damage, control worked, then out came Ugin and Toothless for the win. G2 he had a pair of Mistcutter Hydra and I had no removal. G3 got a little stuck with land, and died to a Savage Knuckleblade and Stormbreath. Realised on de-sideboarding that I'd put cards in after game 1 but never took them out, so was running a 67 card deck, so that probably had something to do with it... 1-2. Annoyingly, had I won that game, I would have grabbed 2nd.
However, I think that my card drawing worked pretty well (see rambling thoughts in earlier post), and I've talked myself out of going Dragon Control for now. I do, however, think that a second Haven (replacing a Swamp) would be nice, especially in games like round 2 where I lost all 3 Dragons. Also, I can see the bonus of Liliana (as run by Adrian Sullivan) as there were several times I was thinking "I could really do with X right now", so think I'll grab one of them too. Not sure what to put it on for, as the card draw worked well, and so did the counters. I may drop the second Ingenuity again as I'll still be giving myself a library manipulation tool with her -X.
I don't like the Thoughtseizes in the sideboard. I put them in for several games, but didn't cast them for wanting to keep life up. I think I'll try running a second Aetherspouts and a Silence the Believers instead.
The Ashiok/Vault plan is far less proactive than Esper dragons. With Esper, you often just cast Ojutai and race. It's a powerful card, but the Den Protector/Deathmist Raptor package is something the deck really doesn't have a good answer to.
Ashiok's stock has risen now that Downfalls are less prevalent; it's good against green decks and it's good against the mirror. Not only do all of these decks have targets for the minus ability, but I win as many games through slowly exiling their library as I do with creatures that I take. It's a cheap wincon that is more powerful than it looks.
Silumgar's Scorn and Foul-Tongue Invocation are big losses, for sure, but I think there are reasons to prefer dragonless: you blank all of the edict effects that are good against Esper, the mana is better, you can leverage the exile effects (Vault, Ashiok, Silence) and have actual answers against enchantments and these recurring creatures, you are better suited for the control mirror mainboard.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
I do agree that Disdainful Stroke and Ultimate Price are optional. I've cut both from my list and have yet to feel like it has hurt me. Decks running mono-color creatures are either RDW or Jurassic Den, UP isn't very good against either. However the 4-2-1 is interesting, I am without the singleton as stated before but I may look at adding it back.
I find it interesting that UP has been so marginal, but it has remained in the 75. I suppose if I was to directly compare my list I would say I have gone -1 UP, +1 Foul-Tongue for the full 4 main. The difference has not felt like it hurt at all.
Dissipate as an answer to the recursion mechanics feels like a pretty poor answer. You may get the first Raptor, but you'll see only morphed creatures after that. Silence the Believers is likely the best route to getting rid of the Raptor engine. Exiling the first one probably saves you 2-3 cards, the second probably 1-2; by "saves cards" I mean cards they are not gaining.
Are we really cutting Thoughtseize? That card is great in control mirrors, and both decks you reference still have a 2/2 split between boards.
Right now I'm running 3 Anticipate, 1 DTT, 2 Prerogative. I'm thinking about going 3, 2, 1 respectively. Prerogative has been a huge boon in control mirrors and those random games where I find my hand is empty. Is there a glaring reason Prerogative has seen little play in G1? I do see a 1 of in the sideboard of both decks you've posted. I wonder if we can just cut a single DTT, main the Prerogative and add a card to our board. Thoughts?
For reference:
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Plains
3 Island
2 Swamps
1 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Caves of Koilos
2 Mana Confluence
2 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
1 Dismal Backwater
3 Temple of Enlightenment
4 Temple of Deceit
Removal
2 Thoughtseize
2 Silence the Believers
2 Hero's Downfall
4 Foul-Tonge Invocation
3 Bile Blight
2 Crux of Fate
4 Silumgar's Scorn
2 Dissolve
Deck Sift
3 Anticipate
1 Dig Through Time
2 Dragonlord's Prerogative
Threats
1 Dragonlord Silumgar
1 Silumgar, the Drifting Death
3 Dragonlord Ojutai
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Drown in Sorrow
2 Utter End
2 Negate
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Radiant Purge
2 Thoughtseize
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Dissolve
"Reveal a Dragon"
2-2 Overall
Mirror:
2-0
I prepared a lot for this match up and (reading articles and posts here). Stole his Ugin with Silumgar and Ultimate it first game. Game 2 I bring in Ashkiok, cast him T3 and is snowballs for him from there.
Vs Abzan Midrange: 2-1
I answered his stuff 1 for 1 and tried to stay ahead via CA. It always feels like this deck is favored, but Ojutai paved the way and Silungar, the Drifting Death is fantastic in this match.
Vs Mardu Tokens 0-2 Loss
I got obliterated. Not enough answers and he ripped my hand apart via Thoughtseize, Duress and Mardu Charm. This match up feels really bad for the deck. The early discard, kills control, all the tapped lands didn't help , and when scorn if turned off you are pretty much dead in the water. He set-up his 3 drops well and rabblemaster's came down to put the pressure on (He'd taken my counters right out and DTT). Crackling Doom = Anti Dragon card.
Vs Abzan Control 1-2 Loss
This match up is not favorable. They have more draw then we do, and we can only counter so much, I felt like he always had CA from someplace. Eitehr Graveyard, (Tasigur), or his 8 Draw Spells (Charms, and Read the Bones ). Let's not mention his own Thoughtseize and walker suite it almost feels like there is not enough to answer them. I win game 2 off the back of DL Silumgar (Stole Elspeth and Ultimate her). Other than that, he T1 and T2 Thoughtseize and pretty much put me Behind from there. Is this where we bring in our own Tasigur? Just feels like I should be bringing this is but they have so much removal is feels like he's a target, and I'd rather draw more and sculpt my hand to answer their threats. They fire off so much draw, theis deck has beaten me a lot, I managed to win when I was running the PLA Vault version of U/B.
So maybe it's time to go back to the good ol, U/B control with PLA and Ashiok's as threats. That version played 8 counters and more draw, I never felt like I got rolled as hard as I did i my last 2 matches. I'm lucky I avoided the RDW matches, as those are almost unwinnable G1.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
I'm also considering a 4th Foul-Tongue Invocation. That card is money and gaining 4 a couple times can swing the game.
I dissipated a thunderbreak regent today with a haven of the spirit dragon on his side in play... seems a fine 1-of.
I think you will REALLY want to go up to 3 Dig through Time. It's always what you want to draw late-game. I actually like dragonlord's prerogative also; I MD 1 (I run 3 dig so there's a 3-1 draw split) but 2 can clog the hand. The deck fuels delve well, might as well use it. Dig leads to such awesome plays when you have a lot of mana to work with late game, digging up counters in response and firing them off is good fun.
Unrelated note, I did want to ask generally about how people sideboard vs. Abzan variants? As mentioned in the post above (racerxen), Thoughtseize, Duress and Mardu Charms [edit: i meant abzan charm, but mardu charm can be annoying too] to draw cards are powerful against us. What do you find powerful against them? The aggro variety, even, gave me issues, with Rakshasa Deathdealer and Fleecemane Lion often slipping below the counters, and regen and monstrous abilities are problematic.
Vs Abzan control, I think Tasigur is a major issue as he tends to resolve after they force us to deal with Lions early discard. If they take DTT or an Anticipate we fall behind really fast. Soultion might be to up the counter suite, and bring in Negate and Disdainful Stroke to counter the draw. There might even be a reason for us to go the other route and become the disruption deck on the draw. Which means adding Duress to the deck.
Yasook's SB was really well thought-out and I have been looking to that SB for some ideas lately. I'm cutting Anticipate, I can't stand that card at times, the deck plays 8 scry lands, and a dragon that gives us the effect. Card draw is huge Mid to late game.
G2 vs Abzan Control I boarded in all my 4 Thoughtseize, 1 Perilous Vault and Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver. That seemed to be the right play and that match went long, like I said DL Silumgar stole the match and baby Silumgar can simply crush them. Once they board in their card draw in the play, and go into disruption mode it feels rough. Hence, I think the deck needs to run Jace's Ingenuity.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
The difference between Anticipate and Divination is massive, I'm afraid. Anticipate can be done EoT, so you can hold mana for answers while keeping tempo. Divination is basically going to force you to have 6 lands in play to hold even one answer's worth of mana. Anticipate can just be played much earlier in the game where Divination is slow and makes mana awkward. I've seen a couple decks use Weave Fate, but I don't recommend it; may as well use Jace's Ingenuity, but then you may as well use Dragonlord's Prerogative or DTT and now you're back on page with the rest of us. Anticipate just has early game relevance where all the others are mid to late game.
My biggest gripe about Anticipate is that I feel like I lose tempo over playing it, if it were just an answer I'd not have lost tempo and I'd have the same number of cards in my hand after resolution. A few times Anticipate feels like " spend 1U get an answer... maybe?" which is not how I want to feel most of the time. On the other hand, I do find myself fixing mana with it and that actually works pretty well. Some EoT Anticipate, get a land, untap, upkeep, draw, temple, pass; a decent T2 through T4.
"Reveal a Dragon"