Agree with axman. The recursion is very important and gives you virtual copies of your wincons. I doubt it would see play if all it did was make dragon-mana of any color. Caves of Koilos or Temple of Silence would just be better options otherwise.
Agree with axman. The recursion is very important and gives you virtual copies of your wincons. I doubt it would see play if all it did was make dragon-mana of any color. Caves of Koilos or Temple of Silence would just be better options otherwise.
Temple would actually be better in that case. Simply because of the scry.
Currently I feel exiling isn't that much better as removing even against the Dragon build. If you include 5-6 Dragons you should be able to have/find more when they come online (turn 5/6+) and can potentially get exiled (turn 6+/7+).
Additionally the Flores' build runs a whopping 10 Dragons. I feel Haven is much more there for the colour fix than actually returning the Dragons.
have to disagree with this. Yes its mana fixing. But the ability of the land is super relative.
The deck runs 10 Dragons and 2 Dragonlord's Prerogative. Finding additional Dragons with the build never is an issue. Nor are there actually any match ups where you will burn through dragons like crazy.
Additionally all the relevant Temples are in it. List can be found on brainburst.com aswell as here in this topic.
The point: haven is only played because of the recursion. Regardless of how many dragons you play, scry lands are nearly ALWAYS better then a a land that can only produce mana of any color for creature spells... when you only run 10 creatures.
Considering he's just trading his dragons with much cheaper disruption I think he needs every Haven he can get. I built a 4-color version of the deck that I'll be running this weekend that only has 7 dragons and 3 Haven/3 Crucible; I'm hoping it'll be more reasonable with it's aggression. I managed to fit the full playset of Foul-Tongues in by cutting (i.e. moving to sideboard) the Atarka, and upping the black sources to 11. Haven't decided whether she just becomes an Ugin, since I only want her for green matchups.
Took the list i posted last friday and ran 5-2 at the pptq to end in 12th on breakers.
Round 1 Vs Mardu Control (2-0) win
Round 2 vs Abzan Aggro (2-0) win
Round 3 vs Atarka Red ( 1-2) Loss (he top decked atarka's command for lethal in both games 1 and 3 with no hand and no board state)
Round 4 vs UB Vault (1-2) Loss
Round 5 vs Esper Dragons (2-1) Win
Round 6 vs Mono Red Aggro (2-1) win
Round 7 vs G/W aggro (2-0)
Both loss's were super close had 74 ppl so no x-2's made top 8
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Unfortunately, all of my test animals have died or escaped, so i shall be the final subject. I feel no fear. This is a momentous night."
--Laboratory notes, final entry
The mini report:
Round 1: Won 1-0 against yasooka style of UB. Pretty easy first match, specially with 2 ashioks and fighting against no-ojultai style of dragons
Round 2: Won 2-1 against RG Agro with dragons... Tough match, it was decided when on the third game I decided to keep an ashiok from a DTT after watching he left his top card (after scrying with a temple). Played ashiok and exiled a Nissa that would have wrecked me.
Round 3: Won 2-0 against the new Sidisi whip. Another relative tough match, I know I have a better matchup than the other Esper dragons. They run a lot of den protectors and raptors, but I have 2 Perilous vault main...
Round 4: Lost 2-1 against Sidisi Whip. Second match I needed just 4 cards to mill him (with ashiok in play)...
Round 5: Won 2-0 against oldy Jeskai
Round 6: ID with Esper Dragons player
Top 8: Fiest round: Won 2-0 against double mulligan to 5 Mardu... This is a strange deck, that innovates playing 4 mardu charms which are quite good against us (instant duress ftw!)... Last time he had won against me at a local GPT.
Second Round: Lost 2-0 against Abzan Aggro... Lot of Rakshashas and an unexpected valorous stance game 2 gave him the match (and later the tournament)...
Well, be my guest if you want to make any comment or advice. I believe my list in particular has a better matchup against sidisi os midrange gw decklists (thanks to perilous vault), and a different angle when playing against esper dragons (because of the maindeck ashioks). Also it has a worst time when it comes to play against Rg with atarka comand...
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Pretty sure base UB is only better in a mirror match. Ojutai basically "answers" the things that Vault would (Manifest the Unseen), as well as many of the things it can't (Mono Red). Esper's going to be better against Sidisi anyway, since an early Whip resolving gets raced much easier than the 2-of Vault gets found. GW is the same story, since 2 Vaults doesn't answer their playsets of Mastery/Deathmist Raptor, and you don't have many ways to stabilize the board or pull far ahead. You can't even block Deathmist Raptor; these decks are just insane against the general principles of control, and are just being mitigated by the fact that Esper can race them.
You may think that Ojutai is some cheese Geist of Saint Traft card, violating the gentlemanly pact, but it's actually the best CA engine in Standard and you're choosing not to run it.
Your list has 4 Digs, 2 Ingenuity, and eventually 1 Ugin that gain any card advantage whatsoever. Old UB is basically a draw-go deck with a nerfed draw engine. Not only that, you also don't get to play the reprinting of Counterspell...even the straight UB lists on MODO are running 3 Silumgars to turn on Scorn. UB was one of the poorest performing decks before DTK and now Esper is leaps and bounds the best, with the only benefit to playing old UB being that Ashiok is good because of a nuance in the mirror.
Pretty sure base UB is only better in a mirror match. Ojutai basically "answers" the things that Vault would (Manifest the Unseen), as well as many of the things it can't (Mono Red). Esper's going to be better against Sidisi anyway, since an early Whip resolving gets raced much easier than the 2-of Vault gets found. GW is the same story, since 2 Vaults doesn't answer their playsets of Mastery/Deathmist Raptor, and you don't have many ways to stabilize the board or pull far ahead. You can't even block Deathmist Raptor; these decks are just insane against the general principles of control, and are just being mitigated by the fact that Esper can race them.
You may think that Ojutai is some cheese Geist of Saint Traft card, violating the gentlemanly pact, but it's actually the best CA engine in Standard and you're choosing not to run it.
Your list has 4 Digs, 2 Ingenuity, and eventually 1 Ugin that gain any card advantage whatsoever. Old UB is basically a draw-go deck with a nerfed draw engine. Not only that, you also don't get to play the reprinting of Counterspell...even the straight UB lists on MODO are running 3 Silumgars to turn on Scorn. UB was one of the poorest performing decks before DTK and now Esper is leaps and bounds the best, with the only benefit to playing old UB being that Ashiok is good because of a nuance in the mirror.
As someone who has abandoned UB in favor of Esper... I can not agree with you. Straight UB has a far superior match against Jurassic Park Abzan, GW Manifest, and Sidisi Whip.
You are correct in that Ojutai "soft" answers those decks by being an aggressive card. It does not; however, win you the game against those decks when you are behind.
The worst case scenario against any control deck is a turn 2 mastery of the unseen. Esper dragon has no real way to deal with it while UB does. As an esper player, when your opponent plays a turn 2 mastery your only hope is you have a turn 5 ojutai, turn 6 drifting death, and tons of mass removal spells.
I'm one of the "old style" players - no dragons yet. Well, one - a single Silumgar. However, I'm torn between staying that style, or moving to a UB dragons. If I go dragons, then I'm thinking a pair of each Silumgar, plus one or maybe two more. I'm just wondering what the thoughts one which dragon to include (and no, don't suggest Ojutai. I'm not wanting to go Esper) - Necromaster to fill the mill? One of the Regents? One of the FRF dragons? Or is a Sullivan style UB Dragonless still a viable deck? Ax seems to support it (even if he has abandoned me!), but I find it hit and miss. More miss against RDW, so not sure whether to stick to my roots or embrace the change... partially.
I'm one of the "old style" players - no dragons yet. Well, one - a single Silumgar. However, I'm torn between staying that style, or moving to a UB dragons. If I go dragons, then I'm thinking a pair of each Silumgar, plus one or maybe two more. I'm just wondering what the thoughts one which dragon to include (and no, don't suggest Ojutai. I'm not wanting to go Esper) - Necromaster to fill the mill? One of the Regents? One of the FRF dragons? Or is a Sullivan style UB Dragonless still a viable deck? Ax seems to support it (even if he has abandoned me!), but I find it hit and miss. More miss against RDW, so not sure whether to stick to my roots or embrace the change... partially.
UB control (Adrian's list) is arguably stronger than any other control deck. The problem: it is 100% more difficult to build and play. Each card you choose in the 75 holds far more weight than the choices you make in UB dragons. You have a greater "tool-box" to deal with a a larger range of threats. But on the flip side... your win conditions are alot slower so you must be super precise with your tool-box to win.
I know you said don't suggest Ojutai because you don't want to play esper... but why not? Esper in my opinion is the strongest option if you're going the Dragon route.
I fully support the pure control version of UB as well. I'm on the Esper dragons list right now, but the dragonless version continues to tempt me into returning. If you don't want to go Esper, I'd suggest you stick with what you've been playing. I don't see much reason to play dragon control without Ojutai (Silumgar's Scorn and Foul-Tongue Invocation are big payoffs, but I don't think those two cards alone are enough to switch).
Thanks for the input. Hopefully playing a standard tourney next week, so will post what happened. I'm going to be a Vault short though, so could be interesting!
I've been doing a lot of testing, and I am running UB Dragons. While similar to Esper it runs 6 dragons and MD Icefall Regent. The Traditionl UB list is imo the most powerful, but it takes a lot of good play and decision making to be at it's best. I think the current UB/x Tier list is:
Traditional UB control (Sullivan List)
Esper Control (CFB list, This deck has a lot of good games all around imo, Dragonlord Ojutai makes this deck great, 5/4 that turns on a 3-4 clock? and triggers Anticipate if he hits? Yeah...so good)
U/B Dragon Control (Very Similar to Esper, but I think has a slightly better game vs Aggro. In the Mirror, it really comes down to how to handle and approach the match, but it's very hard, Esper has the upper hand).
I've piloted all three, and once you lock the game down with the Sullvian's List is it really does feel like you can't lose. The UB/x Dragons needs to leave mana up for Scorns/ Dissolve all the while proactively planning the match accordingly. There have been times I've watched new control players tap out incorrectly and make come poor decisions with the deck that leads the opponent to get back in the game. I've even gone as far as to ask more experienced MTG control players to tutor me. Saying that I'm the best control player out there is a far cry from the truth, and I think getting tips from seasoned players helps new comers and returning players get better with control style decks.
It's worth splashing W for Ojutai, but the other 2 variants are just good and have their own pros and cons.
Lastly, All 3 decks lose badly to RDW, G1 is really hard to win (is like 3 out of 10 I think?) the tuning of all 3 is a meta game call on our part. I set my UB Dragon control to have a better game VS aggro G1, from what I've seen Esper decks are adjusting as well. The 3rd Bile Blight in the main is necessary, and the 4th out of the SB is as well.
for those interested,Link to my deck list is here: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/29-01-15-Ebh-ub-control/
As someone who has abandoned UB in favor of Esper... I can not agree with you. Straight UB has a far superior match against Jurassic Park Abzan, GW Manifest, and Sidisi Whip.
You are correct in that Ojutai "soft" answers those decks by being an aggressive card. It does not; however, win you the game against those decks when you are behind.
The worst case scenario against any control deck is a turn 2 mastery of the unseen. Esper dragon has no real way to deal with it while UB does. As an esper player, when your opponent plays a turn 2 mastery your only hope is you have a turn 5 ojutai, turn 6 drifting death, and tons of mass removal spells.
Ojutai isn't a soft answer to Mastery; it's just plain stronger. As Thompson put it, Ojutai puts your opponent in a "tempo blackhole". They can't race you with infinite Grizzly Bears for 4 mana a piece; they need something else like landing a random removal spell or a Whisperwood when you tap out for it. If I thoughtseize htem on turn 1, I wouldn't even take the Mastery if I had Ojutai on 5. If both players had a pile of lands and a single copy of each card but had to skip their drawsteps, Ojutai would win nearly every time. They have to gain an edge somewhere else, and then hope the Mastery grinds you out.
The funniest game I've had against Mastery was against a GW player who slammed it on turn 2. Turn three, he plays his Caryatid before playing a third land and I Scorn it. He misses his land drop and passes. Next few turns I Dissolve and Hero's Downfall more mana dorks, and play an Ojutai with him only having 3 lands out. I've lost only 1 game to Mastery, and that was against a literal morph deck. At least 16 morphs in the deck being flipped off Mastery, the Dragonslayer which kills Ojutai for free.
Of course, I don't run the same kind of list as everyone else. I've been had the full playset of Ojutai, 4x Anticipate and 2x Font of Fortunes, along with playsets of Dissolve and 2 Thoughtseize. I have just as many counters and card draw as I did in UB, and am just running Ojutai as a massive upgrade to Prognostic Sphinx. I'm not running a Dragon Tap-Out deck, just a UB deck with an actual draw engine like in past Standard formats. Instead of the Nullifys I ran a few months back, I even get actual Counterspell. I think streamlining the deck to be a regular Control deck with a engine that's JTMS power levels (relative to the power levels of the format, of course) is going to be the eventual evolution of the deck. Gerry Thompson already is saying in his articles that:
The most important thing this deck did teach me is that there is basically no reason not to play the maximum amount of Dragonlord Ojutai. It is by far your best Dragon, so the only reason to not play multiples is if you'd want multiple Dragons in play at the same time. There's some merit to that, but Crux of Fate is often better at keeping opposing creatures off your back.
As someone who has abandoned UB in favor of Esper... I can not agree with you. Straight UB has a far superior match against Jurassic Park Abzan, GW Manifest, and Sidisi Whip.
You are correct in that Ojutai "soft" answers those decks by being an aggressive card. It does not; however, win you the game against those decks when you are behind.
The worst case scenario against any control deck is a turn 2 mastery of the unseen. Esper dragon has no real way to deal with it while UB does. As an esper player, when your opponent plays a turn 2 mastery your only hope is you have a turn 5 ojutai, turn 6 drifting death, and tons of mass removal spells.
Ojutai isn't a soft answer to Mastery; it's just plain stronger. As Thompson put it, Ojutai puts your opponent in a "tempo blackhole". They can't race you with infinite Grizzly Bears for 4 mana a piece; they need something else like landing a random removal spell or a Whisperwood when you tap out for it. If I thoughtseize htem on turn 1, I wouldn't even take the Mastery if I had Ojutai on 5. If both players had a pile of lands and a single copy of each card but had to skip their drawsteps, Ojutai would win nearly every time. They have to gain an edge somewhere else, and then hope the Mastery grinds you out.
The funniest game I've had against Mastery was against a GW player who slammed it on turn 2. Turn three, he plays his Caryatid before playing a third land and I Scorn it. He misses his land drop and passes. Next few turns I Dissolve and Hero's Downfall more mana dorks, and play an Ojutai with him only having 3 lands out. I've lost only 1 game to Mastery, and that was against a literal morph deck. At least 16 morphs in the deck being flipped off Mastery, the Dragonslayer which kills Ojutai for free.
Of course, I don't run the same kind of list as everyone else. I've been had the full playset of Ojutai, 4x Anticipate and 2x Font of Fortunes, along with playsets of Dissolve and 2 Thoughtseize. I have just as many counters and card draw as I did in UB, and am just running Ojutai as a massive upgrade to Prognostic Sphinx. I'm not running a Dragon Tap-Out deck, just a UB deck with an actual draw engine like in past Standard formats. Instead of the Nullifys I ran a few months back, I even get actual Counterspell. I think streamlining the deck to be a regular Control deck with a engine that's JTMS power levels (relative to the power levels of the format, of course) is going to be the eventual evolution of the deck. Gerry Thompson already is saying in his articles that:
The most important thing this deck did teach me is that there is basically no reason not to play the maximum amount of Dragonlord Ojutai. It is by far your best Dragon, so the only reason to not play multiples is if you'd want multiple Dragons in play at the same time. There's some merit to that, but Crux of Fate is often better at keeping opposing creatures off your back.
I think you underestimate mastery. Mastery Is a power house that ojutai can not easily compete with especially if paired with raptor. The life gain from master is super relative. And is some cases can counter the damage output from ojutai (especially if raptor synergy gets online).
Additionally no "good" gw player will play cards from their hand against control unless you have nothing or they are desperate. They will always manifest. Manifest can't be countered and it allows them to get in their big beats uncontested. Counterspell are probably the worst in that matchup because they seldom cast spells.
I don't know how Fabiano does it... I ran Fabiano's list last night at FNM. My only change was 1 Elspeth in the SB instead of the 4th Thoughtseize. I ended up color screwed a lot. Not in having colors, but not having both UU and BB up, there simply wasn't enough UB sources. Utter End was also pretty terrible all night. Never really wanted to have it. 4 dragons was too few as well, I had a hard time getting win conditions. Too often my dragon spells were turned off as well.
Round 1 - Mono R Aggro
I won G1 due to him never finding a 2nd land. I lost the next 2 games, mulligan to 6 both games. Never saw Bile Blight or Drown in Sorrow in this match...
Round 2 - UW Tempo?
New kid playing a lot of C/U creatures and spells plus Myth Realized. Won 2-0 easily.
Round 3 - Naya Midrange
I won a long game 1, but lost G2 flooding on land, and lost G3 stuck on 3 land.
Round 4 - Atarka Red
Lost G1 pretty quickly. Won the next 2 games getting a healthy amount of answers on time.
Round 5 - Abzan Midrange
This is just the easiest matchup. T3 Ashiok unanswered both games helped too.
SB I'm going to make some changes, probably -1 Stroke -1 Duress for +2 Tasigur.
I did 3-1-1 at an FNM
1) 2-0 vs. GR dragons. I find this deck well suited vs. midrange battlecruisers, although multiple crater's claws did serious damage to me G1; Ugin got me there. G2 he had land issues.
2) 2-1 vs. Atarka red. In short, the only reason I was able to win here was Foul-Tongue Invocation. I MD 3 and bring in the 4th. FTI and bile blight (BB) are awesome here. Atarka's command is a beating though.
3) Draw vs. Naya walkers. I think I misplayed portions of this match as I didn't understand he was a walker list til he dropped an Elspeth and blew up my Ojutai G1. Game 2 I drew way too many counters for him to handle. Game 3 went to time.
4) 0-2 vs. ensoul artifact. What can I say... G1 I stared at an ultimate price while an ornithopter beat me down and stubborn denial and stratus dancer blanked my other removal. G2 was pretty similar, with another stratus dancer countering my downfall. I drew relatively poorly each game though. G2 I had boarded up to 3x Thoughtseize and 2x Duress but drew them both after he landed his ensoul.
5) 2-0 vs. Jeskai tokens. He had to mulligan. A lot. I can't speak much for this matchup as it was brutal.
I am new at this deck and learning how to pilot. It is SMOOTH as butter most of the time though and very enjoyable to play. Biggest problems I ran into were Atarka's command (instead of gaining 4 off foul tongue invocation, losing 3 for a 7-point swing?) and stratus dancer. Do you counter the morph creature? LOL.
Round 1: Mardu Midrange
Good deck that curved up into Elspeth while being Warrior based. In the end, I was just doing more powerful things than he was.
Round 2: GW Devotion
Very close/tough games. Utter End over-performed here. I don't understand why people are bothered by Mastery of the Unseen. It's an extremely slow engine, and Ojutai is much faster. That said, it's a really tough deck to beat.
Round 3: Mirror
Ashiok made me cry game 1. In the other games, my larger amount of card draw and additional Ojutai's carried me.
Round 4: Abzan Control
A skilled player and a tough match, but I got there. 3 Foul-Tongue in the main is nice for life gain. And being able to exile his 1-of Whip of Erebos was great.
I really like how my build of the deck works. I think Utter End, additional card draw, and the 4th Ojutai really make the deck work for me. I have a really bad game 1 against RDW, but games 2 and 3 are winable. By accepting having that one bad match, I do really good against everything else.
I'm also thinking of playing 1 Ajani Steadfast in the main to make Ojutai more badass. Life gain really helps against RDW and GW Devotion, Ojutai races much better, attacks over enemy Ojutai's without any fear, and never loses hexproof. I think it seems like a strong tech card.
The things I really like about his list are the 4 Ojutai's, Dragonlord Silumgar, Ashiok, and 3x Foul-Tongue in the main. Going up to 3x Ashiok postboard seems damn good against both G/W/x Morph decks and the mirror. My only gripe with the list is I'd rather have that Stratus Dancer be a Negate. It's a fine card don't get me wrong, but if I'm on the draw against the mirror, I'd rather just have negate.
I think one of the most underestimated aspects of the mirror is countering counterspells, which is where negate shines. I still run 2 main 2 board. Also, I think the cat is out of the bag with Tasigur. The potential suprise out the board is not worth the risk of milling 2 random spells into the graveyard.
My only gripe with the list is I'd rather have that Stratus Dancer be a Negate. It's a fine card don't get me wrong, but if I'm on the draw against the mirror, I'd rather just have negate.
Not me, I like Stratus Dancer quite a bit. If it hits the board, they have to spend two resources to deal with it, and it is a reasonably effective clock. Negate can be countered, Stratus Dancer flipping cannot.
I really like the new PV list. I dont know about everyone else but I have had so many games with Silumgar's Scorn and Foul Tongue andnno dragon in hand, i think the 6th Dragon is great.
One thing I was surprised to see was the lack of ways to handle all the recursion decks via Perilous Vault, Silence the Believers, Utter End. Those decks were built to win against this deck and seem to get the job done a lot of the time. Maybe we are just supposed to ignore their game and race with ours?
I have been running 2 Silence the Believer's in my sideboard to deal with recursion, and for card advantage against midrange.
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"Unfortunately, all of my test animals have died or escaped, so i shall be the final subject. I feel no fear. This is a momentous night."
--Laboratory notes, final entry
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UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
Temple would actually be better in that case. Simply because of the scry.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
The point: haven is only played because of the recursion. Regardless of how many dragons you play, scry lands are nearly ALWAYS better then a a land that can only produce mana of any color for creature spells... when you only run 10 creatures.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Round 1 Vs Mardu Control (2-0) win
Round 2 vs Abzan Aggro (2-0) win
Round 3 vs Atarka Red ( 1-2) Loss (he top decked atarka's command for lethal in both games 1 and 3 with no hand and no board state)
Round 4 vs UB Vault (1-2) Loss
Round 5 vs Esper Dragons (2-1) Win
Round 6 vs Mono Red Aggro (2-1) win
Round 7 vs G/W aggro (2-0)
Both loss's were super close had 74 ppl so no x-2's made top 8
--Laboratory notes, final entry
Finished 3rd-4th in my local pptq, 4-1-1 on the swiss and then lost on the second match of the top8.
4 Dig Through Time
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Dismal Backwater
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Bile Blight
2 Perilous Vault
4 Dissolve
3 Island
4 Swamp
1 Pearl Lake Ancient
1 Silumgar, the Drifting Death
1 Crux of Fate
2 Jace's Ingenuity
3 Radiant Fountain
1 AEtherspouts
3 Opulent Palace
1 Negate
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Anticipate
1 Foul-Tongue Invocation
1 Silence the Believers
1 Ultimate Price
1 Temple of Mystery
1 Thoughtseize
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Negate
3 Drown in Sorrow
2 Thoughtseize
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Jorubai Murk Lurker
2 Pharika's Cure
1 Stratus Dancer
The mini report:
Round 1: Won 1-0 against yasooka style of UB. Pretty easy first match, specially with 2 ashioks and fighting against no-ojultai style of dragons
Round 2: Won 2-1 against RG Agro with dragons... Tough match, it was decided when on the third game I decided to keep an ashiok from a DTT after watching he left his top card (after scrying with a temple). Played ashiok and exiled a Nissa that would have wrecked me.
Round 3: Won 2-0 against the new Sidisi whip. Another relative tough match, I know I have a better matchup than the other Esper dragons. They run a lot of den protectors and raptors, but I have 2 Perilous vault main...
Round 4: Lost 2-1 against Sidisi Whip. Second match I needed just 4 cards to mill him (with ashiok in play)...
Round 5: Won 2-0 against oldy Jeskai
Round 6: ID with Esper Dragons player
Top 8: Fiest round: Won 2-0 against double mulligan to 5 Mardu... This is a strange deck, that innovates playing 4 mardu charms which are quite good against us (instant duress ftw!)... Last time he had won against me at a local GPT.
Second Round: Lost 2-0 against Abzan Aggro... Lot of Rakshashas and an unexpected valorous stance game 2 gave him the match (and later the tournament)...
Well, be my guest if you want to make any comment or advice. I believe my list in particular has a better matchup against sidisi os midrange gw decklists (thanks to perilous vault), and a different angle when playing against esper dragons (because of the maindeck ashioks). Also it has a worst time when it comes to play against Rg with atarka comand...
XWU KCI Eggs
XBRG Lantern Control
You may think that Ojutai is some cheese Geist of Saint Traft card, violating the gentlemanly pact, but it's actually the best CA engine in Standard and you're choosing not to run it.
Your list has 4 Digs, 2 Ingenuity, and eventually 1 Ugin that gain any card advantage whatsoever. Old UB is basically a draw-go deck with a nerfed draw engine. Not only that, you also don't get to play the reprinting of Counterspell...even the straight UB lists on MODO are running 3 Silumgars to turn on Scorn. UB was one of the poorest performing decks before DTK and now Esper is leaps and bounds the best, with the only benefit to playing old UB being that Ashiok is good because of a nuance in the mirror.
As someone who has abandoned UB in favor of Esper... I can not agree with you. Straight UB has a far superior match against Jurassic Park Abzan, GW Manifest, and Sidisi Whip.
You are correct in that Ojutai "soft" answers those decks by being an aggressive card. It does not; however, win you the game against those decks when you are behind.
The worst case scenario against any control deck is a turn 2 mastery of the unseen. Esper dragon has no real way to deal with it while UB does. As an esper player, when your opponent plays a turn 2 mastery your only hope is you have a turn 5 ojutai, turn 6 drifting death, and tons of mass removal spells.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
UB control (Adrian's list) is arguably stronger than any other control deck. The problem: it is 100% more difficult to build and play. Each card you choose in the 75 holds far more weight than the choices you make in UB dragons. You have a greater "tool-box" to deal with a a larger range of threats. But on the flip side... your win conditions are alot slower so you must be super precise with your tool-box to win.
I know you said don't suggest Ojutai because you don't want to play esper... but why not? Esper in my opinion is the strongest option if you're going the Dragon route.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Can't recommend him/her enough.
I'm probably preaching to the Choir though.
Traditional UB control (Sullivan List)
Esper Control (CFB list, This deck has a lot of good games all around imo, Dragonlord Ojutai makes this deck great, 5/4 that turns on a 3-4 clock? and triggers Anticipate if he hits? Yeah...so good)
U/B Dragon Control (Very Similar to Esper, but I think has a slightly better game vs Aggro. In the Mirror, it really comes down to how to handle and approach the match, but it's very hard, Esper has the upper hand).
I've piloted all three, and once you lock the game down with the Sullvian's List is it really does feel like you can't lose. The UB/x Dragons needs to leave mana up for Scorns/ Dissolve all the while proactively planning the match accordingly. There have been times I've watched new control players tap out incorrectly and make come poor decisions with the deck that leads the opponent to get back in the game. I've even gone as far as to ask more experienced MTG control players to tutor me. Saying that I'm the best control player out there is a far cry from the truth, and I think getting tips from seasoned players helps new comers and returning players get better with control style decks.
It's worth splashing W for Ojutai, but the other 2 variants are just good and have their own pros and cons.
Lastly, All 3 decks lose badly to RDW, G1 is really hard to win (is like 3 out of 10 I think?) the tuning of all 3 is a meta game call on our part. I set my UB Dragon control to have a better game VS aggro G1, from what I've seen Esper decks are adjusting as well. The 3rd Bile Blight in the main is necessary, and the 4th out of the SB is as well.
for those interested,Link to my deck list is here:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/29-01-15-Ebh-ub-control/
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
Ojutai isn't a soft answer to Mastery; it's just plain stronger. As Thompson put it, Ojutai puts your opponent in a "tempo blackhole". They can't race you with infinite Grizzly Bears for 4 mana a piece; they need something else like landing a random removal spell or a Whisperwood when you tap out for it. If I thoughtseize htem on turn 1, I wouldn't even take the Mastery if I had Ojutai on 5. If both players had a pile of lands and a single copy of each card but had to skip their drawsteps, Ojutai would win nearly every time. They have to gain an edge somewhere else, and then hope the Mastery grinds you out.
The funniest game I've had against Mastery was against a GW player who slammed it on turn 2. Turn three, he plays his Caryatid before playing a third land and I Scorn it. He misses his land drop and passes. Next few turns I Dissolve and Hero's Downfall more mana dorks, and play an Ojutai with him only having 3 lands out. I've lost only 1 game to Mastery, and that was against a literal morph deck. At least 16 morphs in the deck being flipped off Mastery, the Dragonslayer which kills Ojutai for free.
Of course, I don't run the same kind of list as everyone else. I've been had the full playset of Ojutai, 4x Anticipate and 2x Font of Fortunes, along with playsets of Dissolve and 2 Thoughtseize. I have just as many counters and card draw as I did in UB, and am just running Ojutai as a massive upgrade to Prognostic Sphinx. I'm not running a Dragon Tap-Out deck, just a UB deck with an actual draw engine like in past Standard formats. Instead of the Nullifys I ran a few months back, I even get actual Counterspell. I think streamlining the deck to be a regular Control deck with a engine that's JTMS power levels (relative to the power levels of the format, of course) is going to be the eventual evolution of the deck. Gerry Thompson already is saying in his articles that:
I think you underestimate mastery. Mastery Is a power house that ojutai can not easily compete with especially if paired with raptor. The life gain from master is super relative. And is some cases can counter the damage output from ojutai (especially if raptor synergy gets online).
Additionally no "good" gw player will play cards from their hand against control unless you have nothing or they are desperate. They will always manifest. Manifest can't be countered and it allows them to get in their big beats uncontested. Counterspell are probably the worst in that matchup because they seldom cast spells.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Round 1 - Mono R Aggro
I won G1 due to him never finding a 2nd land. I lost the next 2 games, mulligan to 6 both games. Never saw Bile Blight or Drown in Sorrow in this match...
Round 2 - UW Tempo?
New kid playing a lot of C/U creatures and spells plus Myth Realized. Won 2-0 easily.
Round 3 - Naya Midrange
I won a long game 1, but lost G2 flooding on land, and lost G3 stuck on 3 land.
Round 4 - Atarka Red
Lost G1 pretty quickly. Won the next 2 games getting a healthy amount of answers on time.
Round 5 - Abzan Midrange
This is just the easiest matchup. T3 Ashiok unanswered both games helped too.
Anyways... I'll be updating for next week.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/598381-kiki-chord-kiki-company
Bring to Niv
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/814060-bring-to-niv-the-golden-deck
Legacy - Lands
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/established-legacy/control/535484-primer-lands
1x Silumgar, the Drifting Death
1x Dragonlord Silumgar
1x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3x Anticipate
3x Dig Through Time
1x Dragonlord's Prerogative
3x Dissolve
4x Silumgar's Scorn
3x Foul-Tongue Invocation
2x Bile Blight
3x Hero's Downfall
2x Ultimate Price
2x Crux of Fate
2x thoughtseize
2x Dismal Backwater
5x Island
4x Polluted Delta
4x Swamp
4x Temple of Deceit
2x Temple of Enlightenment
3x Temple of Silence
1x Tranquil Cove
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Duress
1x Negate
2x Disdainful Stroke
3x Drown in Sorrow
1x Bile Blight
1x Foul-tongue Invocation
1x Dragonlord's Prerogative
1x Ultimate Price
2x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
SB I'm going to make some changes, probably -1 Stroke -1 Duress for +2 Tasigur.
I did 3-1-1 at an FNM
1) 2-0 vs. GR dragons. I find this deck well suited vs. midrange battlecruisers, although multiple crater's claws did serious damage to me G1; Ugin got me there. G2 he had land issues.
2) 2-1 vs. Atarka red. In short, the only reason I was able to win here was Foul-Tongue Invocation. I MD 3 and bring in the 4th. FTI and bile blight (BB) are awesome here. Atarka's command is a beating though.
3) Draw vs. Naya walkers. I think I misplayed portions of this match as I didn't understand he was a walker list til he dropped an Elspeth and blew up my Ojutai G1. Game 2 I drew way too many counters for him to handle. Game 3 went to time.
4) 0-2 vs. ensoul artifact. What can I say... G1 I stared at an ultimate price while an ornithopter beat me down and stubborn denial and stratus dancer blanked my other removal. G2 was pretty similar, with another stratus dancer countering my downfall. I drew relatively poorly each game though. G2 I had boarded up to 3x Thoughtseize and 2x Duress but drew them both after he landed his ensoul.
5) 2-0 vs. Jeskai tokens. He had to mulligan. A lot. I can't speak much for this matchup as it was brutal.
I am new at this deck and learning how to pilot. It is SMOOTH as butter most of the time though and very enjoyable to play. Biggest problems I ran into were Atarka's command (instead of gaining 4 off foul tongue invocation, losing 3 for a 7-point swing?) and stratus dancer. Do you counter the morph creature? LOL.
4x Dismal Backwater
2x Flooded Strand
2x Haven of the Spirit Dragon
4x Island
1x Plains
4x Polluted Delta
2x Swamp
3x Temple of Deceit
3x Temple of Enlightenment
1x Temple of Silence
Spells
2x Anticipate
2x Crux of Fate
3x Dig Through Time
4x Dissolve
2x Divination
3x Foul-Tongue Invocation
3x Hero's Downfall
2x Jace's Ingenuity
4x Silumgar's Scorn
2x Ultimate Price
2x Utter End
4x Dragonlord Ojutai
1x Silumgar, the Drifting Death
3x Arashin Cleric
3x Bile Blight
2x Dragonlord's Prerogative
1x Hero's Downfall
2x Negate
1x Silumgar, the Drifting Death
2x Stratus Dancer
1x Ultimate Price
Round 1: Mardu Midrange
Good deck that curved up into Elspeth while being Warrior based. In the end, I was just doing more powerful things than he was.
Round 2: GW Devotion
Very close/tough games. Utter End over-performed here. I don't understand why people are bothered by Mastery of the Unseen. It's an extremely slow engine, and Ojutai is much faster. That said, it's a really tough deck to beat.
Round 3: Mirror
Ashiok made me cry game 1. In the other games, my larger amount of card draw and additional Ojutai's carried me.
Round 4: Abzan Control
A skilled player and a tough match, but I got there. 3 Foul-Tongue in the main is nice for life gain. And being able to exile his 1-of Whip of Erebos was great.
I really like how my build of the deck works. I think Utter End, additional card draw, and the 4th Ojutai really make the deck work for me. I have a really bad game 1 against RDW, but games 2 and 3 are winable. By accepting having that one bad match, I do really good against everything else.
I'm also thinking of playing 1 Ajani Steadfast in the main to make Ojutai more badass. Life gain really helps against RDW and GW Devotion, Ojutai races much better, attacks over enemy Ojutai's without any fear, and never loses hexproof. I think it seems like a strong tech card.
Modern - GB Elves, UW Ojutai Control
Legacy - BWG Junk Stoneblade
Gay and Proud
#MakeAmericaGreatAgain
2 Caves of Koilos
4 Dismal Backwater
2 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
3 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Temple of Enlightenment
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Flooded Strand
Creatures:
4 Dragonlord Ojutai
1 Silumgar, the Drifting Death
1 Dragonlord Silumgar
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Spells:
3 Bile Blight
4 Dig Through Time
2 Dissolve
3 Foul-Tongue Invocation
3 Hero's Downfall
4 Silumgar's Scorn
2 Crux of Fate
3 Thoughtseize
2 Anticipate
1 Bile Blight
1 Thoughtseize
1 Dragonlord Silumgar
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Dragonlord's Prerogative
3 Drown in Sorrow
1 Stratus Dancer
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
The things I really like about his list are the 4 Ojutai's, Dragonlord Silumgar, Ashiok, and 3x Foul-Tongue in the main. Going up to 3x Ashiok postboard seems damn good against both G/W/x Morph decks and the mirror. My only gripe with the list is I'd rather have that Stratus Dancer be a Negate. It's a fine card don't get me wrong, but if I'm on the draw against the mirror, I'd rather just have negate.
Not me, I like Stratus Dancer quite a bit. If it hits the board, they have to spend two resources to deal with it, and it is a reasonably effective clock. Negate can be countered, Stratus Dancer flipping cannot.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
One thing I was surprised to see was the lack of ways to handle all the recursion decks via Perilous Vault, Silence the Believers, Utter End. Those decks were built to win against this deck and seem to get the job done a lot of the time. Maybe we are just supposed to ignore their game and race with ours?
--Laboratory notes, final entry