As a control player at heart I always try and brew up a solid looking control list for week one of a format as a thought exercise to see just how well I can evaluate a format and build a deck around it with zero knowledge of what will actually be there. Here's the control list that I'll be battling with if my cards arrive in time.
The reason to play this deck over the white based control variants is that your mana base is actually solid. Building a 3 color mana base for an allied shard is nearly impossible without being insanely clunky which will lose you many games over the course of an 8 round event. Being two colors also allows you to play a compliment of life gain lands in radiant fountain and dismal backwater which helps you survive the early game against the rabblemaster decks until you can start to clean up. You can also get some super late game value by bouncing the pearl lake ancient along with 3 scry lands and/or life gain lands. It sounds ridiculous, but it can and does come up. I've chosen to run 2 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth because the deck has much heavier mana requirements early with black mana than blue and it interacts very well with fetchlands and the fountains.
It has almost everything that a control deck needs to be viable which is good mana, good card draw, hard to remove finishers, and a versatile suite of various answers. The obvious thing that you're giving up is elspeth which is a tough sell I'm sure. However if the pro tour taught us anything it's that prognostic sphinx is a great answer to her and works great against other control and midrange decks. You aren't really giving up much by losing end hostilities because the card is only mediocre at best with a lack of solid 2 mana removal spells. You'll notice that I'm also not using many of the fanciful delve cards that were printed because this is only 2 colors and there isn't enough room to add erroneous fetch lands just to enable delve. The only one that I'm running is a single murderous cut which may be better served as a silence the believers for the ability to strive it and to kill an animated sarkahn.
In the sideboard there is mostly the usual suspects, but with a few of the more interesting ones, namely disdainful stroke. That card along with despise are for the courser and caryatid decks that want to dump 4-5 mana haymakers every turn for the rest of the game and it is a 2 mana answer to literally every threat that the RG monster-esque decks can present. It stops all of their dragons, all of their planes walkers, gods if they see any play, and leaves them with only courser and maybe rabblemaster to attack you with.
Since sweepers are still going to be necessary in some capacity, I've included 2 copies of drown in sorrow for the super aggro decks and 2 Ætherspouts for the midrange monster decks with extras of each in the board. Obviously drown in sorrow is great against aggro, but aether spouts is especially great against midrange when combined with an active Ashiok. The fact that it's instant speed is a very big deal as you can cast it without having to worry about getting hit by a dragon immediately after. You're able to untap, answer their follow up, and then counterspell what they left on top. If they play around it by only sending in a single dragon you can kill it and take zero damage or they can swing with everything and risk the massive blow out.
The only things that I'd like to make some room for are another jace's ingenuity or a font of fortunes for just a tiny bit of extra card draw, but 4 divination and 1 ingenuity seems to work fine. I am also constantly wondering if Indulgent Tormentor has a place in this list because his effect is very strong and kills quick, but dies to lightning strike, the new sarkahn, and takes a full turn to gain value. That being said, it is very powerful once you untap with him so if another win condition is needed that would be the first one that I turn to.
Forgive me for adding another color, but a list I'm currently tuning runs along the same lines. It uses a light splash of green, but I think the benefits speak for themselves. Let me know if you think this is true enough to your idea of the thread for it to stay:
I would drop the Divinations since there's plenty of instant speed draw available in the format now.
I think 4 Ashioks along with 6 creatures are bit too much. I would cut few of those and add more disruption / card draw. Also Empty the Pits is quite good wincon since it's instant speed and can potentially end the game in one swing, though you can't play too many delve cards with it.
Sure there's instant speed card draw, but not much of it is cheap enough to play early on. Dig through time has the potential to be cheap, but it's not turn 3/4 cheap. Why do you think that the ashiok's and 6 dorks are excessive? I'm not saying you're wrong, just curious what your reasoning is.
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And on that day, Garfield said unto the world "Go ye forth and durdle!"
Again I splash the green but very little green. I don't know how good Acendancy is, I like its effect but i don't normally like taking a turn off to use it. I have very few win con's, I side into more if my opponent has boardwipes. Ashiok can behave like a win con if you can get your opponent top decking with counter back up.
Font is better than diviation when running counterspells.. also your 3 cmc spot on the curve is overfilled whille there are only bile blight in the 2 cmc spot allowing you to cast font during a free turn.
This type of deck is definately working much better in testing that it has in the past.
I'm a control-aholic turned mid-ranger. Love the deck in general. A few thoughts. Take them for what they're worth.
1) Agreed on 6 creatures and 4 Ashioks being excessive. You set yourself up for the periodic hand full of nothing but kill-cons and zero actual control. That said, I love Ashiok and I know from experience the first one you drop always draws a lot of fire. Almost works as a diversion. So if it were me I'd drop to 1 ancient and 3 sphinxs.
2) I think a good aggro deck is gonna wreck you game one every time. Consider main decking the other two drown in sorrows.
3) Lifegain land and ancient combo is kinda genius. I can imagine that if you're able to drag the opponent into deep water it could make the difference. Me likey.
4) Dig Through Time is definitely worth considering as a one- or two-of.
5) If you'd like to splash a third color (white or green, depending on how you're feeling) creating that mana base really isn't all that difficult with the crapload of different duals and tris running around. I get where you're coming from on wanted to avoid mana screw, but I think it can be pulled off more seamlessly than you'd think. Probably would require a sacrifice of some of your radiant fountains to do so though.
Please run it and post how it fares. You might be dragging me back to the dark side of control.
"You mean it's time in the round and you're not done with game one? Dude, everyone hates you." -Words I have heard too often running something like this
I'm a control-aholic turned mid-ranger. Love the deck in general. A few thoughts. Take them for what they're worth.
1) Agreed on 6 creatures and 4 Ashioks being excessive. You set yourself up for the periodic hand full of nothing but kill-cons and zero actual control. That said, I love Ashiok and I know from experience the first one you drop always draws a lot of fire. Almost works as a diversion. So if it were me I'd drop to 1 ancient and 3 sphinxs.
2) I think a good aggro deck is gonna wreck you game one every time. Consider main decking the other two drown in sorrows.
3) Lifegain land and ancient combo is kinda genius. I can imagine that if you're able to drag the opponent into deep water it could make the difference. Me likey.
4) Dig Through Time is definitely worth considering as a one- or two-of.
5) If you'd like to splash a third color (white or green, depending on how you're feeling) creating that mana base really isn't all that difficult with the crapload of different duals and tris running around. I get where you're coming from on wanted to avoid mana screw, but I think it can be pulled off more seamlessly than you'd think. Probably would require a sacrifice of some of your radiant fountains to do so though.
Please run it and post how it fares. You might be dragging me back to the dark side of control.
"You mean it's time in the round and you're not done with game one? Dude, everyone hates you." -Words I have heard too often running something like this
I admit I have no idea which combination of "sweeper" effects will be correct as the spouts is awesome against midrange where drown in sorrow is basically dead. The life gain lands (the fountains in addition to the new tapped duals from khans) do help out a ton against aggro to get me just enough time to kill a few things and drop a sphinx. I don't think I'd cut the second ancient as it's too important against other control decks in game 1 I believe so I'll likely cut a sphinx. I just worry about not being able to close out a game well enough with the lack of revelations. And I'm not planning to splash a third color currently as the mana is just far to clunky, painful, and slow which is a recipe for disaster.
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And on that day, Garfield said unto the world "Go ye forth and durdle!"
The U/B version can't deal with enchantments or Sagu Mauler, which is an issue and a good reason to add a third color. I would also diversify your threats, a singleton Liliana would be better than the 4th Ashiok and I would also drop a Sphinx for maybe something like a Jace.
pair it with the new jace for added delving bonus, but running mainboard 4 other delves might not be a good idea since Empty the Pits is pretty delve heavy.
The U/B version can't deal with enchantments or Sagu Mauler, which is an issue and a good reason to add a third color. I would also diversify your threats, a singleton Liliana would be better than the 4th Ashiok and I would also drop a Sphinx for maybe something like a Jace.
Whelming Wave is something i've considered trying because of the hexproof on it in case we don't have a counter in hand for it. Not the only reason but a big one.
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Standard: No Time
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
Font is better than diviation when running counterspells.. also your 3 cmc spot on the curve is overfilled whille there are only bile blight in the 2 cmc spot allowing you to cast font during a free turn.
This type of deck is definately working much better in testing that it has in the past.
This is some great analysis here, I never thought about the synergy between counter spells and the font before, I will try them in my blue decks, thanks. Also, I second the motion on 4x drown in sorrow main deck. Not having 1 in hand against heros, rabblered is usually GG and I expect to see that stupid goblin everywhere.
Having 4 drown in sorrow when there is a fairly high chance your opponent has no targets for it seems risky.. I'd rather use up 4 slots in the side for it. I mean it is possible to switch out ashiok main and side.. even 2 and 2 since ashiok/ drown in sorrow is the switch.
I run aetherspouts as my boardwipe, instant speed is best speed.
I guess my deck is currently configured against Mid range rather than aggro. I am not sure the tournament on the weekend (for which there was no control) really cleared up with was more dominant since mid range and aggro were both present.
Atm I am having the most trouble with the aristocrat like decks where they have half aggro and half mid range and I basically want all the cards in my sideboard but don't know what to cut. I am also worried about the number of planeswalkers in the meta right now I really only have the 4 downfalls it makes me want to use more disdainful strokes but then that is bad against rabblemaster. taking a turn to remove a threat allows a pw to come down and hit me. Most of them making addition creatures is a pain Sarkhan is the easiest one to deal with.
how likely are gods, particularly keranos are to turn up? I have to play unravel against them but want more space.
Played with some sagu mauler its house. i think asendacy to the side and maulers to the main. There is no control/slow mid range to play against where the Asendancy is at its best.
I kinda get the want for the vaults since there are so many damn planeswalkers about.... I stil prefer aetherspouts as my boardwipe.. vault takes up too many turns and too much mana over all.
I think your list is a pretty good start. There are some things that could probably be changed... but who knows?
I don't think Ulcerate is worth it at all. You don't have anyway to leverage the tempo, and the vast majority of situations where you would want this, Vicious Hunger would probably just be better. I also that you have way too many BBs and UUs.
I think the only counter Magic you need is Disdainful Stroke to be quite honest.
You mean pharika's cure I assume... I though about it but I have decided Bile blight is just better too much versatility and sometimes two for 1, plus hits things like Mantis rider
Murderous cut plays the role of the "1 cmc" kill spell the best. allowing you to kill two things in 1 turn.
atm I am really only playing the Green for the Mauler, charm and unravel the aether in the sideboard (sick of dying to gods!!) It should be possible to be a empty the pits only deck. trying to kill every single creature is a tough fight that I have been trying to play for too long.. so perhaps returned phalanx is something we are interested in.
Well, Since our Dimir Control got abruptly moved to Standard Archives today, sine a couple of us are already here, I figured I'd join up with you guys. ToG, do you mind if I quote your last post from the now archived thread?
As far as Disdainful Stroke, the first creature that comes to mind that WILL see play and on Trice already is seeing a ton, is Siege Rhino. I want a counter in hand every time. the 6 life swing isn't fun on the losing end and then a 4/5 Trampler is awful. The other that comes to mind is a certain 6/6 trample hexproof by the name of Sagu Mauler dodges everything outside of a sweeper, which we haven't much in the way. The only two Diabolic Edict effects in standard are Drop Dead which is overcosted, even with Delve, and Agent of the Fates, which requires a spell to target it, which in most of our cases is going to be a kill spell. 1-for-2 seems over spent. Not even going to consider the option on Indulgent Tormentor, Shrike Harpy, and Ob Nixilis, Unshackled or trading with Dictate of Erebos since we aren't running Sac outlets or creature heavy builds. All of that being said, I would gather that while Stroke hits both of those creatures on the stack, having Dissolve and Nullify, imo, would help a ton. Dissolve hitting ANY spell makes it strictly and obviously more versatile than Stroke, and its not like Mantis Rider, Fleecemane Lion, Goblin Rabblemaster, opponent's Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver, etc. are things we would much rather not see resolve.
One question that was brought up, and I've even argued as a weakness, is that we can't deal with enchantments. What enchantment in standard can U/B not deal with that will win the game on it's own? Obvioudly there are some threatening Gods, and Banishing Light is, as Oblivion Ring was, great removal. We're all running counterspells, and if your meta likes enchantments too much, run Void Snare or Jace, the Living Guildpact, bounce it with 3 open lands, pass the turn and Dissolve it. And I don't wanna hear any crap about "using 2 cards to deal with 1 threat", because control players have been Unsummoning/Boomeranging/Disperseing things for ages. Obviously, just countering it the first time is most ideal, but sometimes that's the play to make and it can turn the game in your favor.
I'd like to touch on some more cards, but I feel like I've already ranted more than enough and would rather let someone else take the floor.
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A card I respected but was undervaluating allot in testing was Disdainful Stroke. Seriously, you need a very strong argument to not pack 4 somewhere in your 75. Regarding my list I think it is apt to actually drop the Nullify altogether and go up to 3 Stroke's MB. This also allows you to retool your manabase to better enable your BB plays, such as Bile Blight, Pharika's Cure and Sign in Blood.
I've since dropped Empty the Pits entirely as it has been poor in testing with the amount of Delve spells you should be running and the other Delve spells are simply too powerful to not play.
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One question that was brought up, and I've even argued as a weakness, is that we can't deal with enchantments. What enchantment in standard can U/B not deal with that will win the game on it's own? Obvioudly there are some threatening Gods, and Banishing Light is, as Oblivion Ring was, great removal. We're all running counterspells, and if your meta likes enchantments too much, run Void Snare or Jace, the Living Guildpact, bounce it with 3 open lands, pass the turn and Dissolve it. And I don't wanna hear any crap about "using 2 cards to deal with 1 threat", because control players have been Unsummoning/Boomeranging/Disperseing things for ages. Obviously, just countering it the first time is most ideal, but sometimes that's the play to make and it can turn the game in your favor.
Not the best answer to enchantments, but annul is a much easier to run counter than dissolve. SB only of course but it's nice to knockout a God for U
I am certainly considering upping the disdainful stroke... atm it is 2 in the board in a split with negate perhaps there should be no negates, I mean what am I negating that I cannot stroke? jeskai charm? banishing light?. There is a hole in the curve at 2 cmc that it nicely filled by it.
I don't like single target bounce spells they are card disadvantage and it is not worth it... I like aetherspouts it blows out people to no end and is great with ashiok (forces them to the bottom). doesn't hit enchantments of course... that is why I charm and unravel in the side.
Ok good to know that empty isn't really that great I was going to give it a run... but it did seem underpowered.. another card I have been encouraged to give a try is Garruk, apex predator anyone thats splashing green given him a go?
I still prefer font of fortunes over sign in blood my life is precious to me, sign is better in the straight UB deck of course that can afford to run fountains.
As a control player at heart I always try and brew up a solid looking control list for week one of a format as a thought exercise to see just how well I can evaluate a format and build a deck around it with zero knowledge of what will actually be there. Here's the control list that I'll be battling with if my cards arrive in time.
2 Pearl Lake Ancient
4 Prognostic Sphinx
Interaction:
4 Thoughtseize
2 Ætherspouts
2 Drown in Sorrow
4 Hero's Downfall
3 Bile Blight
1 Murderous Cut
4 Dissolve
4 Divination
4 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Jace's Ingenuity
Mana base:
4 Dismal Backwater
4 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Radiant Fountain
3 Swamp
4 Temple of Deceit
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Silence the Believers
3 Pharika's Cure
2 Negate
2 Drown in Sorrow
4 Disdainful Stroke
2 Despise
1 Ætherspouts
The reason to play this deck over the white based control variants is that your mana base is actually solid. Building a 3 color mana base for an allied shard is nearly impossible without being insanely clunky which will lose you many games over the course of an 8 round event. Being two colors also allows you to play a compliment of life gain lands in radiant fountain and dismal backwater which helps you survive the early game against the rabblemaster decks until you can start to clean up. You can also get some super late game value by bouncing the pearl lake ancient along with 3 scry lands and/or life gain lands. It sounds ridiculous, but it can and does come up. I've chosen to run 2 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth because the deck has much heavier mana requirements early with black mana than blue and it interacts very well with fetchlands and the fountains.
It has almost everything that a control deck needs to be viable which is good mana, good card draw, hard to remove finishers, and a versatile suite of various answers. The obvious thing that you're giving up is elspeth which is a tough sell I'm sure. However if the pro tour taught us anything it's that prognostic sphinx is a great answer to her and works great against other control and midrange decks. You aren't really giving up much by losing end hostilities because the card is only mediocre at best with a lack of solid 2 mana removal spells. You'll notice that I'm also not using many of the fanciful delve cards that were printed because this is only 2 colors and there isn't enough room to add erroneous fetch lands just to enable delve. The only one that I'm running is a single murderous cut which may be better served as a silence the believers for the ability to strive it and to kill an animated sarkahn.
In the sideboard there is mostly the usual suspects, but with a few of the more interesting ones, namely disdainful stroke. That card along with despise are for the courser and caryatid decks that want to dump 4-5 mana haymakers every turn for the rest of the game and it is a 2 mana answer to literally every threat that the RG monster-esque decks can present. It stops all of their dragons, all of their planes walkers, gods if they see any play, and leaves them with only courser and maybe rabblemaster to attack you with.
Since sweepers are still going to be necessary in some capacity, I've included 2 copies of drown in sorrow for the super aggro decks and 2 Ætherspouts for the midrange monster decks with extras of each in the board. Obviously drown in sorrow is great against aggro, but aether spouts is especially great against midrange when combined with an active Ashiok. The fact that it's instant speed is a very big deal as you can cast it without having to worry about getting hit by a dragon immediately after. You're able to untap, answer their follow up, and then counterspell what they left on top. If they play around it by only sending in a single dragon you can kill it and take zero damage or they can swing with everything and risk the massive blow out.
The only things that I'd like to make some room for are another jace's ingenuity or a font of fortunes for just a tiny bit of extra card draw, but 4 divination and 1 ingenuity seems to work fine. I am also constantly wondering if Indulgent Tormentor has a place in this list because his effect is very strong and kills quick, but dies to lightning strike, the new sarkahn, and takes a full turn to gain value. That being said, it is very powerful once you untap with him so if another win condition is needed that would be the first one that I turn to.
3 Sagu Mauler
Instants:
4 Bile Blight
4 Dissolve
2 AEtherspouts
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Sultai Charm
3 Jace's Ingenuity
2 Dig Through Time
Sorceries:
4 Thoughtseize
Planeswalkers:
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
1 Empty the Pits
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Temple of Malady
1 Temple of Mystery
4 Opulent Palace
4 Polluted Delta
3 Swamp
3 Island
2 Forest
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Negate
2 Despise
3 Drown in Sorrow
1 Empty the Pits
2 Liliana Vess
2 Pharika's Cure
1 Pearl Lake Ancient
Sure there's instant speed card draw, but not much of it is cheap enough to play early on. Dig through time has the potential to be cheap, but it's not turn 3/4 cheap. Why do you think that the ashiok's and 6 dorks are excessive? I'm not saying you're wrong, just curious what your reasoning is.
2 Prognostic sphinx
Planeswalkers
4 Ashiok, nightmare weaver
Spells
4 Thoughtseize
2 Bile blight
4 Dissolve
4 Hero's downfall
3 Silence the believers
2 Murderous cut.
2 Sultai charm
2 aetherspouts
2 Dig through time
3 Font of fortunes
2 Sultai ascendancy
lands
4 Polluted delta
4 Temple of deciet
4 opulent palace
2 Temple of mystery
2 Jungle hollow
1 Urbog tomb of yawgmoth
4 Island
3 Swamp
3 Drown in sorrow
2 Unravel the aether
2 negate
2 distanful stroke
2 pharika's cure
2 Sagu mauler
1 perlious vault
1 empty the pits
Again I splash the green but very little green. I don't know how good Acendancy is, I like its effect but i don't normally like taking a turn off to use it. I have very few win con's, I side into more if my opponent has boardwipes. Ashiok can behave like a win con if you can get your opponent top decking with counter back up.
Font is better than diviation when running counterspells.. also your 3 cmc spot on the curve is overfilled whille there are only bile blight in the 2 cmc spot allowing you to cast font during a free turn.
This type of deck is definately working much better in testing that it has in the past.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
1) Agreed on 6 creatures and 4 Ashioks being excessive. You set yourself up for the periodic hand full of nothing but kill-cons and zero actual control. That said, I love Ashiok and I know from experience the first one you drop always draws a lot of fire. Almost works as a diversion. So if it were me I'd drop to 1 ancient and 3 sphinxs.
2) I think a good aggro deck is gonna wreck you game one every time. Consider main decking the other two drown in sorrows.
3) Lifegain land and ancient combo is kinda genius. I can imagine that if you're able to drag the opponent into deep water it could make the difference. Me likey.
4) Dig Through Time is definitely worth considering as a one- or two-of.
5) If you'd like to splash a third color (white or green, depending on how you're feeling) creating that mana base really isn't all that difficult with the crapload of different duals and tris running around. I get where you're coming from on wanted to avoid mana screw, but I think it can be pulled off more seamlessly than you'd think. Probably would require a sacrifice of some of your radiant fountains to do so though.
Please run it and post how it fares. You might be dragging me back to the dark side of control.
"You mean it's time in the round and you're not done with game one? Dude, everyone hates you." -Words I have heard too often running something like this
I admit I have no idea which combination of "sweeper" effects will be correct as the spouts is awesome against midrange where drown in sorrow is basically dead. The life gain lands (the fountains in addition to the new tapped duals from khans) do help out a ton against aggro to get me just enough time to kill a few things and drop a sphinx. I don't think I'd cut the second ancient as it's too important against other control decks in game 1 I believe so I'll likely cut a sphinx. I just worry about not being able to close out a game well enough with the lack of revelations. And I'm not planning to splash a third color currently as the mana is just far to clunky, painful, and slow which is a recipe for disaster.
pair it with the new jace for added delving bonus, but running mainboard 4 other delves might not be a good idea since Empty the Pits is pretty delve heavy.
Whelming Wave is something i've considered trying because of the hexproof on it in case we don't have a counter in hand for it. Not the only reason but a big one.
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
This is some great analysis here, I never thought about the synergy between counter spells and the font before, I will try them in my blue decks, thanks. Also, I second the motion on 4x drown in sorrow main deck. Not having 1 in hand against heros, rabblered is usually GG and I expect to see that stupid goblin everywhere.
I run aetherspouts as my boardwipe, instant speed is best speed.
I guess my deck is currently configured against Mid range rather than aggro. I am not sure the tournament on the weekend (for which there was no control) really cleared up with was more dominant since mid range and aggro were both present.
Atm I am having the most trouble with the aristocrat like decks where they have half aggro and half mid range and I basically want all the cards in my sideboard but don't know what to cut. I am also worried about the number of planeswalkers in the meta right now I really only have the 4 downfalls it makes me want to use more disdainful strokes but then that is bad against rabblemaster. taking a turn to remove a threat allows a pw to come down and hit me. Most of them making addition creatures is a pain Sarkhan is the easiest one to deal with.
how likely are gods, particularly keranos are to turn up? I have to play unravel against them but want more space.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
In terms of win con, I'm thinking something like 4 Ashiok and 1 Empty the Pits.
Some cards that I want to try - keep in mind this is Brainstorming:
Jace, the Living Guildpact: I think he is a great answer to mid-range, and I think his + 1 is a bit underrated.
Jorubai Murk Lurker: If you can get the Swamp, he does a very good Vampire Nighthawk impression.
Akroan Horse: The anti goblin rabble rouser?
Champion of Stray Souls: Resilient win condition?
Colossus of Akros: Most resilient win condition?
Wall of Frost: Blocks a lot.
So right now, the cards I think I'm interested in playing are
- 4 Ashiok
- 4 Hero's Downfall
- 4 Perilous Vault
- 1 Empty the Pits
- 4 Drown in Sorrow
- 4 Pharika's Cure
- 3-4 Thoughtseize
- 3-4 Despise
I kinda get the want for the vaults since there are so many damn planeswalkers about.... I stil prefer aetherspouts as my boardwipe.. vault takes up too many turns and too much mana over all.
I am not against using 1 or 2 though.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
4 Polluted Delta
4 Dismal Backwater
4 Radiant Fountain
4 Temple of Deceit
1 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Island
3 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Prognostic Sphinx
Planeswalkers [4]
4 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Other [27]
3 Dissolve
2 Nullify
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Ulcerate
3 Bile Blight
2 Sign in Blood
2 Heroes Downfall
2 Silence the Believers
3 Murderous Cut
3 Dig through Time
2 Aetherspouts
1 Empty the Pits
-1 Aether
+2 Downfall
Mine was mostly to showcase the framework, if I had the extra Downfalls these would be easy changes to make.
I don't think Ulcerate is worth it at all. You don't have anyway to leverage the tempo, and the vast majority of situations where you would want this, Vicious Hunger would probably just be better. I also that you have way too many BBs and UUs.
I think the only counter Magic you need is Disdainful Stroke to be quite honest.
Murderous cut plays the role of the "1 cmc" kill spell the best. allowing you to kill two things in 1 turn.
I am not having any trouble getting UU and BB.. but I don't have any turn two UU like Nullify.. Disdainful stroke > nullify but dissolve is still important as it counters things like rabblemaster and mantis rider, jeskai charm, banishing light, hero's downfall etc.
atm I am really only playing the Green for the Mauler, charm and unravel the aether in the sideboard (sick of dying to gods!!) It should be possible to be a empty the pits only deck. trying to kill every single creature is a tough fight that I have been trying to play for too long.. so perhaps returned phalanx is something we are interested in.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
As far as Disdainful Stroke, the first creature that comes to mind that WILL see play and on Trice already is seeing a ton, is Siege Rhino. I want a counter in hand every time. the 6 life swing isn't fun on the losing end and then a 4/5 Trampler is awful. The other that comes to mind is a certain 6/6 trample hexproof by the name of Sagu Mauler dodges everything outside of a sweeper, which we haven't much in the way. The only two Diabolic Edict effects in standard are Drop Dead which is overcosted, even with Delve, and Agent of the Fates, which requires a spell to target it, which in most of our cases is going to be a kill spell. 1-for-2 seems over spent. Not even going to consider the option on Indulgent Tormentor, Shrike Harpy, and Ob Nixilis, Unshackled or trading with Dictate of Erebos since we aren't running Sac outlets or creature heavy builds. All of that being said, I would gather that while Stroke hits both of those creatures on the stack, having Dissolve and Nullify, imo, would help a ton. Dissolve hitting ANY spell makes it strictly and obviously more versatile than Stroke, and its not like Mantis Rider, Fleecemane Lion, Goblin Rabblemaster, opponent's Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver, etc. are things we would much rather not see resolve.
I've found a ton of situations that a 1 cmc -3/-3 is really the card I want in my hand when I have a Bile Blight or even a Hero's Downfall. and in builds like ToG and my own that are running full sets of Radiant Fountain and Dismal Backwater, the life loss is negligible. I'm definitely going to try it in the MD and board a couple Blights.
One question that was brought up, and I've even argued as a weakness, is that we can't deal with enchantments. What enchantment in standard can U/B not deal with that will win the game on it's own? Obvioudly there are some threatening Gods, and Banishing Light is, as Oblivion Ring was, great removal. We're all running counterspells, and if your meta likes enchantments too much, run Void Snare or Jace, the Living Guildpact, bounce it with 3 open lands, pass the turn and Dissolve it. And I don't wanna hear any crap about "using 2 cards to deal with 1 threat", because control players have been Unsummoning/Boomeranging/Disperseing things for ages. Obviously, just countering it the first time is most ideal, but sometimes that's the play to make and it can turn the game in your favor.
I'd like to touch on some more cards, but I feel like I've already ranted more than enough and would rather let someone else take the floor.
Avatar by DarkNightCavalier
You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
I've since dropped Empty the Pits entirely as it has been poor in testing with the amount of Delve spells you should be running and the other Delve spells are simply too powerful to not play.
Not the best answer to enchantments, but annul is a much easier to run counter than dissolve. SB only of course but it's nice to knockout a God for U
I don't like single target bounce spells they are card disadvantage and it is not worth it... I like aetherspouts it blows out people to no end and is great with ashiok (forces them to the bottom). doesn't hit enchantments of course... that is why I charm and unravel in the side.
Ok good to know that empty isn't really that great I was going to give it a run... but it did seem underpowered.. another card I have been encouraged to give a try is Garruk, apex predator anyone thats splashing green given him a go?
I still prefer font of fortunes over sign in blood my life is precious to me, sign is better in the straight UB deck of course that can afford to run fountains.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own