Polling an opinion here. Why is no one throwing Jeskai Ascendancy in their lists? I honestly haven't seen anyone else even wanting to test it, but it seems really good in this deck. Consider the following:
The +1/+1 trigger allows Goblin Rabblemaster to swing into a Courser of Kruphix and not die to it, rather it will just flat out kill it and attack again next turn.
The +1/+1 trigger allows for your creatures that aren't Mantis Rider to have pseudo-vigilance against other aggressive decks and then makes them large enough to maybe block, survive, and then attack. Plus the trigger also works double duty with Seeker of the Way.
And I feel the most important part is the ability to loot. If the game gets stalled a bit Ascendancy allows you to loot away excess lands you may draw to get you more of your burn spells. Ascendancy adds what I feel is some inevitability to this deck, that has already shown to have plenty.
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The trouble with Ascendancy is that it does nothing the turn it comes in unless you have another spell to pair with it.
In this deck, you would need a creature or two on board, then play ascendancy, then another spell to even find a spread of +1/+1. The deck runs on a single threat most of the time, Ascendancy is a spent card on 3 mana that does not interact with our opponent. None of our creatures are big enough to stand in the way of Siege Rhino, Polukranos, etc even with a pump. The only cards we block are weak creatures, or trade to survive the turn.
It's also awful in late game actually. As soon as you begin topdecking, the loot just effectively mills you for 1.
The trouble with Ascendancy is that it does nothing the turn it comes in unless you have another spell to pair with it. In this deck, you would need a creature or two on board, then play ascendancy, then another spell to even find a spread of +1/+1. The deck runs on a single threat most of the time, Ascendancy is a spent card on 3 mana that does not interact with our opponent. None of our creatures are big enough to stand in the way of Siege Rhino, Polukranos, etc even with a pump. The only cards we block are weak creatures, or trade to survive the turn.
If you have a Seeker out, it will pump the Seeker. Remember Prowess triggers off ANY non-creature spell
Otherwise I do agree with this point and I feel Ascendancy isn't best when played on curve. It's arguably best when you play it after turn 3, when you already have some dudes in play and can get some explosive turns out of it.
For example, if you play Rabblemaster on Turn 3, and the Goblin you get that turn doesn't die, the next turn you can play Ascendancy, get your 2nd Goblin, Convoke a Stoke the Flames, and then swing with your team for 9 (2 2/2 Goblins, and a 5/3 Rabblemaster).
And yes I agree Ascendancy won't help the deck get over Creature like Polukranos, Rhino, or Arbor Colossus. But with or without Ascendancy the deck is struggling with those cards anyhow, which is what the sideboard is for.
On that note I have a question; Ride Down or Reprisal? Do you think either of these would be good as Sideboard against the decks with the creatures too big to burn out? And if so which may be better? Ride Down is great at getting the damage in, but is restrictive in that we need our opponent to be blocking. If we're racing against a Siege Rhino it's going to be tapped and then we can't use this thing. Reprisal on the other hand doesn't help push through Courser of Kruphix or Brimaz, King of Oreskos. Maybe Suspension Field is the answer? But I don't like having non-instant speed removal in a deck like this :\
It's also awful in late game actually. As soon as you begin topdecking, the loot just effectively mills you for 1.
The looting is actually option, you don't HAVE to loot, it is a MAY effect. So it won't Mill you for 1 unless you are intentionally doing it
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I'm surprised these decks at scg weren't running monastery swiftspear the card can get in so much damage it's crazy
I definitely agree, having haste means it's a surprisingly relevant lategame topdeck. You can play it and clear the way in one turn for a huge blowout.
I've revised my list to add planeswalkers to the main.
I'm not really sure about Void Snare. It is a powerful effect, but the deck is not suited to play it turn 1, and Sorcery speed plays badly with Seeker of the Way. Monastery Swiftspear can be good, but I'm not sure what should you drop for it, the deck needs a critical mass of burn for punishing bad mana.
I'm not really sure about Void Snare. It is a powerful effect, but the deck is not suited to play it turn 1, and Sorcery speed plays badly with Seeker of the Way. Monastery Swiftspear can be good, but I'm not sure what should you drop for it, the deck needs a critical mass of burn for punishing bad mana.
Why on earth would you play Snare on turn 1?
I think Snare has potential but you are probably better of playing more consistent spells, since the window to cast Snare profitably is even narrower than with God's Favor and/or Titan's Strength.
What are everyone's thoughts on Satyr Firedancer and even possibly Searing Blood in the SB? or Satyr in the main?
My meta is very heavy aggro and I feel like these two cards would be great against aggro decks.
Also all the talk of swiftspear, essentially what is everyone cutting to add the haster to the deck?
Satyr felt too cute in the main. There are a lot of x/5s running around as well.
I am playing a more Delver/counterburn style strategy where you drop a threat and protect it while it beats down the opponent. I love the idea of running Brimaz but my manabase just can't handle playing it on curve.
Standard: RWUJeskai Modern: RWGBurn, GRWUBSlivers Legacy: RBurn EDH: RWGUBSliver Overlord, UWGeist of Saint Traft (Tiny Leaders) Current decklists are posted here
I'm interested in the more counter burn aspect of this deck, even though historically it hasn't been that good?
I feel like 1 or 2 dig through times could be good for you. I used to run a list similar to this and once your hand runs out it sucks. Top decking feels bad, especially if you have no magma jets to sculpt.
The idea is to drop a Rabblemaster or Mantis Rider then protect it with the counters or burn. The 6 counterspells are only there to deal with critical threats and to put the fear of things being countered into them. Mindswipe has the added bonus of damaging them in the process. So far the only games I have been losing are ones to mulligans or land/color screw. Dig Through Time and Magma Jet are both solid options for the deck but I think that Dig is too slow for what I need and my meta is too aggro heavy to run Jet over Blood. This may change as the meta develops.
Standard: RWUJeskai Modern: RWGBurn, GRWUBSlivers Legacy: RBurn EDH: RWGUBSliver Overlord, UWGeist of Saint Traft (Tiny Leaders) Current decklists are posted here
Well, I don't know, to be sincere I've never played with Void Snare in constructed. My point is, if you have Void Snare in your deck, you have to contemplate the need of playing it turn 1, and change your mana base accordingly.
Well, I don't know, to be sincere I've never played with Void Snare in constructed. My point is, if you have Void Snare in your deck, you have to contemplate the need of playing it turn 1, and change your mana base accordingly.
You would only cast snare T1 if your opponent lands an Elvish Mystic, and even then that's not always the case. I don't think manabase is what's holding anyone from playing Snare.
Well, I don't know, to be sincere I've never played with Void Snare in constructed. My point is, if you have Void Snare in your deck, you have to contemplate the need of playing it turn 1, and change your mana base accordingly.
Void Snare and its bretheren Unsummon and Vapor Snag(*sniff*~ miss you buddy) are tempo plays that you make to set the opponent back on their development while being cheap enough to not retard your own. This is the main reason people had for playing snag in delver decks- In addition to the 3+ points of damage you were typically getting off of casting and flashing back snags you were also able to get in chip shots with your unflipped delvers, and keep a blocked geist alive while also setting back your opponent's development.
Even if you run snare, chances are you don't want to cast it before turn 2, and even then only if you are using it to push a swiftspear across for 2. In the example that Tiemuuu gives of bouncing the mystic, chances are you'd be much better bouncing whatever they accelerate into since they have to commit a greater amount of resources to replaying that spell than they would the mystic. Regardless, void snare being a sorcery is a huge hindrance to its playability. I would find inclusion of a couple of copies to be perfectly reasonable, but I am not sanguine on it being a huge performer the way snag was in delver.
Ideally you want to cast Void Snare on turns where you can use it to push through a lot of damage or force your opponents to make unfavorable trades.
Hell it even has a little tech play with Sarkhan. If you have 6 mana, with Sarkhan out, you can kill a creature, bounce and recast Sarkhan and kill another dude or swing for 4. It may not be super relevant, but the option is there.
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Running Void Snare would make us look a little harder at our mana bases. E.g. if you are a 2/2 split on Battlefield Forge and Shivan Reef, you'd probably go 1/3 instead, and up to 3 Mystic Monastery from 2, et cetera.
The purpose of it, as stated by someone above me, is to push through damage and retard your opponent's board development. You have Rabblemaster, they lay Polukranos, knowing full well you can't burn it out and won't attack into it. Then you Void Snare it and smash for 6. Sure they lay Polukranos again the next turn, but they're down 6 life and you have essentially negated one of their turns. This is what tempo play is about. Anyone who played Delver probably knows what I mean.
Even though I suggested it I do want to test it. I do like Gods Willing and Magma Spray but both are a little reactive for me. 1-3 (I'd start with 2) Void Snare has potential and I'm interested to see if it performs well for folks.
I will point out if more decks start using Void Snare, the Abzan decks will make sure to run more Rhinos than Polukranos, which is just really bad to Snare :|
If Snare is to deal with big dudes I would suggest Suspension Field instead honestly.
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If you fear big guys, Reprisal is what you want. Enchantment removal turns on their other cards (Reclamation Sage) which is pretty awful to be 0 for 2'd
I will point out if more decks start using Void Snare, the Abzan decks will make sure to run more Rhinos than Polukranos, which is just really bad to Snare :|
If Snare is to deal with big dudes I would suggest Suspension Field instead honestly.
It's to deal with anything that is in the way or will cost your opponent resources to replay. (Ideally both.)
I probably wouldn't Void Snare a Siege Rhino.
I also wouldn't expect a few folks testing Void Snare to have a huge effect on a meta anywhere. I don't think any Abzan players are reading this thread thinking...hmm...let's drop Polukranos...
Not trying to be smart, but that's not very solid reasoning not to try it.
If you fear big guys, Reprisal is what you want. Enchantment removal turns on their other cards (Reclamation Sage) which is pretty awful to be 0 for 2'd
Reprisal is probably fine as a 1- or 2-of in the sideboard. It'd be dead sometimes MB, whereas Void Snare will very rarely be dead, or even bad.
What do you guys think of a few random singletons in the main or side, like Flying Crane Technique, Clever Imposter, or Harness by Force? I was gonna test these out and see how it worked.
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It must suck to be Ingot Chewer, the only Ingot in Magic is indestructible...
Crane Tech is too expensive for what it does. Clever Impostor could prove useful as a singleton or 2-of if decks keep getting bigger and we find worthwhile things to copy. Harness is nice in aggro strategies that need to take out a blocker or steal a finisher. Strive means that we may be able to steal two since we get to 6 man relatively often. I am not sure if we want to steal much aside from Butcher, Siege Rhino, or a big Hydra though.
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The +1/+1 trigger allows Goblin Rabblemaster to swing into a Courser of Kruphix and not die to it, rather it will just flat out kill it and attack again next turn.
The +1/+1 trigger allows for your creatures that aren't Mantis Rider to have pseudo-vigilance against other aggressive decks and then makes them large enough to maybe block, survive, and then attack. Plus the trigger also works double duty with Seeker of the Way.
And I feel the most important part is the ability to loot. If the game gets stalled a bit Ascendancy allows you to loot away excess lands you may draw to get you more of your burn spells. Ascendancy adds what I feel is some inevitability to this deck, that has already shown to have plenty.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
In this deck, you would need a creature or two on board, then play ascendancy, then another spell to even find a spread of +1/+1. The deck runs on a single threat most of the time, Ascendancy is a spent card on 3 mana that does not interact with our opponent. None of our creatures are big enough to stand in the way of Siege Rhino, Polukranos, etc even with a pump. The only cards we block are weak creatures, or trade to survive the turn.
It's also awful in late game actually. As soon as you begin topdecking, the loot just effectively mills you for 1.
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If you have a Seeker out, it will pump the Seeker. Remember Prowess triggers off ANY non-creature spell
Otherwise I do agree with this point and I feel Ascendancy isn't best when played on curve. It's arguably best when you play it after turn 3, when you already have some dudes in play and can get some explosive turns out of it.
For example, if you play Rabblemaster on Turn 3, and the Goblin you get that turn doesn't die, the next turn you can play Ascendancy, get your 2nd Goblin, Convoke a Stoke the Flames, and then swing with your team for 9 (2 2/2 Goblins, and a 5/3 Rabblemaster).
And yes I agree Ascendancy won't help the deck get over Creature like Polukranos, Rhino, or Arbor Colossus. But with or without Ascendancy the deck is struggling with those cards anyhow, which is what the sideboard is for.
On that note I have a question; Ride Down or Reprisal? Do you think either of these would be good as Sideboard against the decks with the creatures too big to burn out? And if so which may be better? Ride Down is great at getting the damage in, but is restrictive in that we need our opponent to be blocking. If we're racing against a Siege Rhino it's going to be tapped and then we can't use this thing. Reprisal on the other hand doesn't help push through Courser of Kruphix or Brimaz, King of Oreskos. Maybe Suspension Field is the answer? But I don't like having non-instant speed removal in a deck like this :\
The looting is actually option, you don't HAVE to loot, it is a MAY effect. So it won't Mill you for 1 unless you are intentionally doing it
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
I definitely agree, having haste means it's a surprisingly relevant lategame topdeck. You can play it and clear the way in one turn for a huge blowout.
I've revised my list to add planeswalkers to the main.
4 Seeker of the Way
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Mantis Rider
2 Gods Willing
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
3 Stoke the Flames
4 Jeskai Charm
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
2 Temple of Triumph
2 Mystic Monastery
2 Temple of Epiphany
4 Shivan Reef
4 Battlefield Forge
3 Mana Confluence
3 Mountain
3 Plains
2 Banishing Light
2 Arc Lightning
2 Magma Spray
2 Gods Willing
2 Deflecting Palm
3 Suspension Field
2 Negate
UThada Adel AcquisitorU
GB Savara, Queen of the Golgori BG
GR Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG
Why on earth would you play Snare on turn 1?
I think Snare has potential but you are probably better of playing more consistent spells, since the window to cast Snare profitably is even narrower than with God's Favor and/or Titan's Strength.
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My meta is very heavy aggro and I feel like these two cards would be great against aggro decks.
Also all the talk of swiftspear, essentially what is everyone cutting to add the haster to the deck?
I am playing a more Delver/counterburn style strategy where you drop a threat and protect it while it beats down the opponent. I love the idea of running Brimaz but my manabase just can't handle playing it on curve.
3 Deflecting Palm
2 Disdainful Stroke
4 Jeskai Charm
4 Lightning Strike
2 Mindswipe
2 Negate
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
3 Searing Blood
4 Stoke the Flames
Creatures
2 Ashcloud Phoenix
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Mantis Rider
4 Battlefield Forge
1 Island
2 Mountain
4 Mystic Monastery
1 Plains
4 Shivan Reef
3 Temple of Enlightenment
3 Temple of Epiphany
2 Temple of Triumph
3 Anger of the Gods
2 Banishing Light
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Ride Down
1 Searing Blood
2 Stormbreath Dragon
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I feel like 1 or 2 dig through times could be good for you. I used to run a list similar to this and once your hand runs out it sucks. Top decking feels bad, especially if you have no magma jets to sculpt.
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You would only cast snare T1 if your opponent lands an Elvish Mystic, and even then that's not always the case. I don't think manabase is what's holding anyone from playing Snare.
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Void Snare and its bretheren Unsummon and Vapor Snag(*sniff*~ miss you buddy) are tempo plays that you make to set the opponent back on their development while being cheap enough to not retard your own. This is the main reason people had for playing snag in delver decks- In addition to the 3+ points of damage you were typically getting off of casting and flashing back snags you were also able to get in chip shots with your unflipped delvers, and keep a blocked geist alive while also setting back your opponent's development.
Even if you run snare, chances are you don't want to cast it before turn 2, and even then only if you are using it to push a swiftspear across for 2. In the example that Tiemuuu gives of bouncing the mystic, chances are you'd be much better bouncing whatever they accelerate into since they have to commit a greater amount of resources to replaying that spell than they would the mystic. Regardless, void snare being a sorcery is a huge hindrance to its playability. I would find inclusion of a couple of copies to be perfectly reasonable, but I am not sanguine on it being a huge performer the way snag was in delver.
Hell it even has a little tech play with Sarkhan. If you have 6 mana, with Sarkhan out, you can kill a creature, bounce and recast Sarkhan and kill another dude or swing for 4. It may not be super relevant, but the option is there.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
The purpose of it, as stated by someone above me, is to push through damage and retard your opponent's board development. You have Rabblemaster, they lay Polukranos, knowing full well you can't burn it out and won't attack into it. Then you Void Snare it and smash for 6. Sure they lay Polukranos again the next turn, but they're down 6 life and you have essentially negated one of their turns. This is what tempo play is about. Anyone who played Delver probably knows what I mean.
Even though I suggested it I do want to test it. I do like Gods Willing and Magma Spray but both are a little reactive for me. 1-3 (I'd start with 2) Void Snare has potential and I'm interested to see if it performs well for folks.
If Snare is to deal with big dudes I would suggest Suspension Field instead honestly.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
I probably wouldn't Void Snare a Siege Rhino.
I also wouldn't expect a few folks testing Void Snare to have a huge effect on a meta anywhere. I don't think any Abzan players are reading this thread thinking...hmm...let's drop Polukranos...
Not trying to be smart, but that's not very solid reasoning not to try it.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
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MTGO/Cockatrice: BlakLanner
My YouTube Channel
Modern: RWGBurn, GRWUBSlivers
Legacy: RBurn
EDH: RWGUBSliver Overlord, UWGeist of Saint Traft (Tiny Leaders)
Current decklists are posted here