Thoughts on using Erebos, God of the Dead in the sideboard? Been messing with my list a little and came up with this. (no FRF yet, this is on MTGO)
I think he's an underrated answer to control. He probably gets slightly worse if UB runs Ugin, but otherwise, he's hard to remove. I like him against classic control decks because they don't pressure your life total, so you can draw a bunch of cards to overwhelm their answers. Also, you hose their lifegain strategies. That second part of the equation makes Erebos pretty good in the Abzan control mirror match.
That said, I don't think I'd run Erebos in the more aggro build that you posted--he's better in a grindy game or to help Abzan control get through U-based control answers.
On a side note, you have 2 Hushwing Gryff in your sideboard. You might want to consider something else in those slots because they totally hose your 4 rhinos and 4 rocs. You may also want to replace a couple of your maindeck Bile Blights with another Murderous Cut, another Hero's Downfall, and maybe a Valorous Stance. Valorous Stance is nice and versatile, but the Cut may be a good choice since your deck seems pretty light on answers to Stormbreath Dragon, which blocks and attacks through almost every creature in your deck.
Thanks for the comments. I've been using MTGO to tune what I want to use on paper, so this is still a work in progress before I take it to the next FNM... Here's where I'm at now, which kind of plays off of some of your recommendations. I like having Hushwing to combat some of the Hornet Queens but you're right, it does have the disadvantage vs Rhinos and Rocs... Thinking ditching the Whip in the SB for some more removal at this point. I've played about 10 matches with this build and I've yet to see a Tasigur so no idea how he performs..
Four copies of Anafenza might feel really bad at times since she's legendary, but maybe the more aggro decks are doing that, I"m not sure. It wouldn't be impossible to draw 2 dead copies of her in any given game. Of course, if you are going to run 3-4 copies of Anafenza, you don't exactly have to worry as much about Hornet Queen being reanimated, meaning you can rely more on Bile Blight and Drown in Sorrow to clean up the hard cast copy or two you might see. I guess I'm suggesting that if you have the Anafenzas, you can probably move the Hushwing Gryffs out.
I've been running Tasigur as a 1-of. I've only played him in a few games, but he's solid just as a 4/5. The only time he kind of felt bad was when I delved away my graveyard to play him, then activated his ability later and milled 2 lands meaning I paid 4 and didn't put a card in my hand. On the plus side though, by the time I was able to pay for his ability, I didn't really want to draw 2 lands in a row anyway. I had him played against me once (Sultai deck), he activated several times, and I was stuck with all kinds of bad choices like "Do I give him a Hero's Downfall, Crux of Fate, or a Disdainful Stroke?" It was kind of maddening and his deck was built with Cuts and Cruises to delve away all of the "good" choices I could have had.
Man, I've had more people quit on me because I was playing Abzan on MTGO than any other deck lol.. People don't like playing against it, do they.
It's only worth playing on MTGO in events that cost money, otherwise there's no reason for people not to quit when they don't like the start of the game. For competitive play, it's also the only way to make sure you are getting players that aren't going to be a waste of time to test against. If they are quitting in Standard Dailies, then hey, more wins for you.
- Tasigur is a legendary, and so the goal isn't to get as many of him out as possible.. it's to get one of him out as soon as possible.. but I think Fleecemane/Rakshasa/Anafenza easily handle the position of being an early beater. By the time you get the first Tasigur out, and he's taken care of, you'll have plenty of mana/graveyard to get another one out without needing the Wayfinder.
- You can do a turn 3 Murderous Cut.. but you can also do a turn 3 Hero's Downfall or Abzan Charm.
Basically, turn 3 is your deciding point. Go offensive with a Tasigur or go defensive with a Murderous Cut. Thing is.. you already have cards that do that (Anafenza or Downfall/Charm).
I don't think Wayfinder is a good fit, and I'm not sure Tasigur should be above 2 because he's a legendary.
However, if you truly want to go this route.. Whip of Erebos and maybe some other "return from the graveyard" cards.
The goal with the delve cards is not just being able to play them early. It's also being able to play them later on for a single mana while also being able to play other cards with the remaining mana available. That's what makes cards like Tasigur or Murderous Cut such potential tempo swings.
But I agree, building a delve theme deck is problematic because you quickly run out of available graveyard resources or you are forced to run cards (like Satyr Wayfinder) that are otherwise not as strong as the other cards in the deck.
If Abzan Control is getting pushed out by other control decks like UB or Jeskai Control and even Jeskai Tokens, then the answer might be to go back to builds similar to Ari Lax's or even Thiago Saparito. Wingmate Roc and MB Sorin seemed pretty good against various Jeskai decks in the Pro Tour.
Glad you brought up UB control. I expect that deck to pick up overall. Abzan aggro has a gameplan, but what are thoughts on the best cards/gameplan for Abzan midrange to deal with UB control? I'm running kind of a hybridish Abzan deck. It's not quite as stocked with walkers as the most controlling builds, but it lacks the early drop creatures of the aggro build such as the Deathdealer and Fleecemane.
Dan Musser won a PTQ with the above list. It grinds well, trumps the mid-range mirror and gets better post board against UB Control (allegedly, but 4 Read the Bones ain't a joke).
Being a control player at heart, I'd take 72 of his 75 to regionals if I were on Abzan. It's very good against creature decks.
Dan Musser won a PTQ with the above list. It grinds well, trumps the mid-range mirror and gets better post board against UB Control (allegedly, but 4 Read the Bones ain't a joke).
Being a control player at heart, I'd take 72 of his 75 to regionals if I were on Abzan. It's very good against creature decks.
I agree. Picked this deck to represent Abzan mid-range in gauntlet testing as the best build at the moment. If I were to switch to Abzan control this is where I'd start. I think its very interesting he's moved away from Sorin, with only one in the board and none in the main since DC.
Dan Musser won a PTQ with the above list. It grinds well, trumps the mid-range mirror and gets better post board against UB Control (allegedly, but 4 Read the Bones ain't a joke).
Being a control player at heart, I'd take 72 of his 75 to regionals if I were on Abzan. It's very good against creature decks.
According to this article, Mr. Musser had a slightly different sideboard in his PTQ winning list. (is the above from his list that top 8ed the SCG event?) The Back to Nature was replaced with the fourth Bile Blight.
I want a Gameday playmat. As a strictly local, at heart non-competitive player, I love to make synergy decks, but I don't believe they give me the reasonable chance to win the mat. This is the deal with the devil that I can live with. I'll be testing this tonight and Monday at one of my LGSes. I have made a few tweaks that I hope don't make this strictly worse.
Mainboard: -1 Windswept Heath, +1 Forest (I hate not having anything to fetch); -1 End Hostilities, +1 Duneblast (greedy, and probably incorrect)
Sideboard: -1 Glare of Heresy, +1 Garruk, Apex Predator (Ugin, Ashiok), -1 Murderous Cut, +1 Hero's Downfall (Ashiok, Sorin, Elspeth), -1 Read the Bones, +1 Erebos, God of the Dead (greed, and he's been really good for me).
I am also considering replacing the 4th Bile Blight in the side with a Mistcutter Hydra, as I expect more UB control than token decks.
Why is everyone wanting Garruk as an answer to Ugin over Utter End / Downfall?
So anyways...
I disagree with taking out the Windswept Heath. The only drawback is you not being able to fetch a land (and taking a point of life loss), which is an extremely rare occurrence. The benefits far outweigh that. Further, you have Urborg to make it a swamp.. further reducing the chance of the Heath being a dead card.
I don't think you should take out the End Hostilities for Duneblast. Your bane is fast decks, not slow and grindy.
Lastly.. I really don't think a single Mistcutter is enough to make it worth it against control. You do have Liliana though, so effectively there's a better chance of getting it.. but I just think he needs more of a presence.
Why is everyone wanting Garruk as an answer to Ugin over Utter End / Downfall?
So anyways...
I disagree with taking out the Windswept Heath. The only drawback is you not being able to fetch a land (and taking a point of life loss), which is an extremely rare occurrence. The benefits far outweigh that. Further, you have Urborg to make it a swamp.. further reducing the chance of the Heath being a dead card.
I don't think you should take out the End Hostilities for Duneblast. Your bane is fast decks, not slow and grindy.
Lastly.. I really don't think a single Mistcutter is enough to make it worth it against control. You do have Liliana though, so effectively there's a better chance of getting it.. but I just think he needs more of a presence.
Thanks for the clearly experienced, thoughtful and prompt reply!
Addressing your points in order:
If I could run 5 Downfalls, I would. Clearly a casting cost of 3 is better than 7, except that Ugin has to suicide to get rid of Garruk. Utter End is useless against Stormbreath Dragon and not very useful against UB control. Making a 3/3 deathtouch beast or taking out a 'walker every turn and threatening an emblem does not seem insignificant. Out of the side while playing abzan constellation, Garruk has been excellent for me.
You are probably correct on the fetch, although I have run out of things to fetch in 2 out of my last ~30 matches (once it saved me, as I didn't need the land and a burn player had me down to 1 life). The earliest WW casting cost card I see is End, so by Karsten's tables I am still be at over 90% to cast End on turn 5 with 16 W sources. Coursers and scrylands help, but another W source would give me better odds. I will be monitoring this in my testing, but low N will still apply.
Point well taken on the Duneblast. I will definitely be looking at how often it rots in my hand, uncastable compared to End. Playing abzan constellation, I've had Doomwake to lean on, but this deck might have more problems w/aggro. On the other hand, I haven't seen much aggro in my meta. I am definitely concerned about G devotion, so I may even want another End in the side rather than a Mistcutter/Blight.
I don't understand your point about the Mistcutter. It seems to me that it is actually subject to diminishing returns, so the first one provides the greatest benefit. For me the issues are: how much UB control do I have to deal with, how much are they leaning on PLA and Murk Lurker and what is the alternative benefit I can get from any other card. Obviously, it just dies to Cut, Downfall and Crux. What am I missing?
Regarding Mistcutter.. I just mean in the sense that a singleton of him most likely won't win you the game against control because of the odds of getting him, and keeping him alive. I don't think Mistcutter has any diminishing returns. He's relevant at any point in the game except turn 1.
I did the math on him and turn 5 or 6 (provided you hit all your land drops) gives the fastest clock on a non-lifegain opponent (including counting the turns you spent NOT casting him).
However, I still scratch my head at understanding the effectiveness of singleton sideboard cards (IE: Nissa). How do you expect to win if Nissa is in the back half of your library and she's your defense against control?
I can't help but feel that Nissa is a 3 of in the sideboard against control in midrange builds, not one or two. Vault, Crux, and Ugin can't take care of both Nissa or the 4/4 lands on their own. A resolved Nissa is as much of a nightmare for control as Rakshasa Deathdealer in aggro builds.
I went 4-5 today at a pretty big 400+ SCG Regionals. I was 4-2 at one point and then I made what was arguably the worst play in the history of the game in game 3 of round 7. I had Nissa on the board at 7 counters and 3 lands left (none of which were creatures). My opponent was at 5 life with nothing in play except 8 lands. I cast Thoughtseize, revealing that my opponent had Ugin, Garruk, and a Hero's Downfall. You should be able to see that I had a virtual lock on winning on my next turn, provided I played this turn correctly.
Error #1: I panicked and took Ugin because Ugin is usually very game-winning against Abzan.
Error #2: I used Nissa's ultimate, not realizing that it can only get basic lands from my library, and also not realizing that there were no more basic lands in my library.
I then tilted the rest of the day and lost the remaining 2 rounds.
Regarding Mistcutter.. I just mean in the sense that a singleton of him most likely won't win you the game against control because of the odds of getting him, and keeping him alive. I don't think Mistcutter has any diminishing returns. He's relevant at any point in the game except turn 1.
I did the math on him and turn 5 or 6 (provided you hit all your land drops) gives the fastest clock on a non-lifegain opponent (including counting the turns you spent NOT casting him).
However, I still scratch my head at understanding the effectiveness of singleton sideboard cards (IE: Nissa). How do you expect to win if Nissa is in the back half of your library and she's your defense against control?
What I mean by diminishing returns is that I gain more by going from 0 to 1 Mistcutters in hand (or on the board) than I gain by going from 1 to 2. Likewise going from 2 to 3 is even less beneficial.
I can't help but feel that Nissa is a 3 of in the sideboard against control in midrange builds, not one or two. Vault, Crux, and Ugin can't take care of both Nissa or the 4/4 lands on their own. A resolved Nissa is as much of a nightmare for control as Rakshasa Deathdealer in aggro builds.
I'm starting to get it. This is a control deck that uses Coursers for card draw and lifegain. With so many draw spells, the answers go further.
I am not defending 1 Nissa, but just stating my learning more generally about how the deck functions. I just copied Musser's list and made a few tweaks. I do think Nissa is much worse now that UB has Crux. She is good against Ugin, but UB not having to rely on Vault makes her worse.
I went 4-5 today at a pretty big 400+ SCG Regionals. I was 4-2 at one point and then I made what was arguably the worst play in the history of the game in game 3 of round 7. ....
Worst play in the history of the game? That deserves it's own thread. I feel for you.
My favorite candidate was my UB control opponent who was attacking with ~6 Empty the Pits tokens against my blocking Reclamation Sage. He cast his russian Aetherspouts, thinking he could choose to have it sweep blockers back to the deck, but instead annihilated all his own attackers.
At a LGS event, I took my worsified Musser list to 3-0-1 last night, good for 2nd place.
R1: UW Heroic: draw (the draw was almost certainly pilot rather than deck weakness)
R2: UB Control: win
R3: Jeskai Ascendancy Tokens: win
R4: Temur Midreange: win
Ugin and Tasigur are amazing. I love the way there are hardly any bad topdecks. I am still figuring out the sideboarding. Is anybody else running off the Musser list? Would it be useful to review sideboard plans?
I don't think Crux makes Nissa worse. She still survives the boardwipe for you to make another 4/4 and attack the next turn. You're down on a few lands but you really don't need to use them when you have an army coming at them and you're playing more lands to refill any killed. Just don't go overboard with making too many creatures.
What I mean by diminishing returns is that I gain more by going from 0 to 1 Mistcutters in hand (or on the board) than I gain by going from 1 to 2. Likewise going from 2 to 3 is even less beneficial.
How so?
I'm legitimately asking, not trying to argue or anything.
He's not a legendary, so just cast the 2nd one and make a faster clock (or keep him in reserve).
I can see a case being made for hydra 3 and 4.. but certainly having a 2nd one isn't detrimental as backup for the first (or that faster clock).
[EDIT: Oh, I think I see it now..
(these are just random numbers to illustrate my thinking)
0 hydras: 0% chance of winning
1 hydra: 30% chance of winning
2 hydras: 40% chance of winning
The first is obviously more aggro, and the second more control/"combo" (I use the term loosely, but it IS fun to stall a game until I have 12 lands and I can play 2 Siege Rhinos every turn...). Not sure which one I'd rather sleeve up right now. Thoughts?
I'm legitimately asking, not trying to argue or anything.
He's not a legendary, so just cast the 2nd one and make a faster clock (or keep him in reserve).
I can see a case being made for hydra 3 and 4.. but certainly having a 2nd one isn't detrimental as backup for the first (or that faster clock).
[EDIT: Oh, I think I see it now..
(these are just random numbers to illustrate my thinking)
0 hydras: 0% chance of winning
1 hydra: 30% chance of winning
2 hydras: 40% chance of winning
That's what you're talking about, right?]
Exactly! In my opinion, for many (most?) cards, the first gives the greatest benefit. Subsequent copies provide benefits, just not as much benefit.
So for whatever estimate I have of incremental winning chance improvement across my meta for each card, the second copy will have a lesser effect than the first. In theory, the later copies could be worse than the first copy of some other card, so I shouldn't have four of each.
In practice, the error bars on my estimate of my meta and the incremental effect of any card in a given matchup are not much more than guesswork, so I netdeck rely on the wisdom of others with greater skill, knowledge and experience.
Took my current list (few pages ago) to another event, 3 in a row undefeated now, although this time I split for the top since it was getting late and it was a sizable prize. Defeated four Jeskai token variants in a row. Before hand, though, was playing for fun against the new Temur Devotion/Ascendancy deck and got my ass handed to me in 6 out of 9 games, no sideboading. Was not pretty.
Wanted to add that my group has now done some pretty extensive testing with Wildcall and have come to the conclusion that it is just okay. It's usually worse than Lion and Deathdealer. It's occasionally much, much better. I expect that if Abzan survives the rotation it will become a feature card in the deck, but that's looking forward a bit far at this point.
A pair of Warden of the First Tree has been performing excellently both in testing and in actual tournaments.
Mardu variants and G/x devotion decks remain the toughest matches.
I'm struggling between two lists right now. Both have been performing pretty well across the board.
The first is obviously more aggro, and the second more control/"combo" (I use the term loosely, but it IS fun to stall a game until I have 12 lands and I can play 2 Siege Rhinos every turn...). Not sure which one I'd rather sleeve up right now. Thoughts?
Right now, with UB gaining popularity, I feel that the more aggressive versions of the deck are most ideally positioned.
Thanks for the comments. I've been using MTGO to tune what I want to use on paper, so this is still a work in progress before I take it to the next FNM... Here's where I'm at now, which kind of plays off of some of your recommendations. I like having Hushwing to combat some of the Hornet Queens but you're right, it does have the disadvantage vs Rhinos and Rocs... Thinking ditching the Whip in the SB for some more removal at this point. I've played about 10 matches with this build and I've yet to see a Tasigur so no idea how he performs..
4 Anafenza, the Foremost
4 Fleecemane Lion
3 Herald of Torment
4 Rakshasa Deathdealer
4 Siege Rhino
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Wingmate Roc
//Planeswalkers
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
//Spells
4 Abzan Charm
2 Bile Blight
2 Hero's Downfall
1 Murderous Cut
2 Valorous Stance
2 Plains
2 Forest
2 Caves of Koilos
3 Temple of Malady
3 Temple of Silence
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Windswept Heath
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
2 Llanowar Wastes
1 Back to Nature
2 Glare of Heresy
2 Drown in Sorrow
1 Whip of Erebos
2 Hushwing Gryff
1 Erase
1 Utter End
1 Bile Blight
1 Hero's Downfall
2 Valorous Stance
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
GWUBAtraxa and Her Superfriends
WUB Oloro, the Life Drain Train
URG Animar, Soul of Elements
WBR Kaalia of the Vast
BWTeysa Karlov, Scion of Orzhov
R Purphoros, Goblins of Pain ($100 Budget Challenge)
U Talrand, Fun Police (Needs updating)
I've been running Tasigur as a 1-of. I've only played him in a few games, but he's solid just as a 4/5. The only time he kind of felt bad was when I delved away my graveyard to play him, then activated his ability later and milled 2 lands meaning I paid 4 and didn't put a card in my hand. On the plus side though, by the time I was able to pay for his ability, I didn't really want to draw 2 lands in a row anyway. I had him played against me once (Sultai deck), he activated several times, and I was stuck with all kinds of bad choices like "Do I give him a Hero's Downfall, Crux of Fate, or a Disdainful Stroke?" It was kind of maddening and his deck was built with Cuts and Cruises to delve away all of the "good" choices I could have had.
2 Rakshasa Deathdealer
2 Anafenza, the Foremost
1 Herald of Torment
4 Siege Rhino
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Nissa, the Worldwaker
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hero's Downfall
3 Bile Blight
2 Murderous Cut
4 Abzan Charm
It's only worth playing on MTGO in events that cost money, otherwise there's no reason for people not to quit when they don't like the start of the game. For competitive play, it's also the only way to make sure you are getting players that aren't going to be a waste of time to test against. If they are quitting in Standard Dailies, then hey, more wins for you.
- Tasigur is a legendary, and so the goal isn't to get as many of him out as possible.. it's to get one of him out as soon as possible.. but I think Fleecemane/Rakshasa/Anafenza easily handle the position of being an early beater. By the time you get the first Tasigur out, and he's taken care of, you'll have plenty of mana/graveyard to get another one out without needing the Wayfinder.
- You can do a turn 3 Murderous Cut.. but you can also do a turn 3 Hero's Downfall or Abzan Charm.
Basically, turn 3 is your deciding point. Go offensive with a Tasigur or go defensive with a Murderous Cut. Thing is.. you already have cards that do that (Anafenza or Downfall/Charm).
I don't think Wayfinder is a good fit, and I'm not sure Tasigur should be above 2 because he's a legendary.
However, if you truly want to go this route.. Whip of Erebos and maybe some other "return from the graveyard" cards.
But I agree, building a delve theme deck is problematic because you quickly run out of available graveyard resources or you are forced to run cards (like Satyr Wayfinder) that are otherwise not as strong as the other cards in the deck.
Cards I *think* will be good against UB Control:
Brimaz, King of Oreskos - can leave behind tokens if not removed immediately
Liliana Vess - card advantage
Valorous Stance - blanks spot removal
3 Bile Blight
4 Abzan Charm
3 Hero’s Downfall
2 Read the Bones
1 Utter End
2 End Hostilities
1 Murderous Cut
Planeswalkers (5)
1 Liliana Vess
3 Elspeth, Sun’s Champion
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Siege Rhino
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Lands (26)
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
4 Temple of Malady
4 Temple of Silence
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Caves of Koilos
2 Llanowar Wastes
3 Glare of Heresy
3 Drown in Sorrow
2 Read the Bones
1 Back to Nature
1 Murderous Cut
1 Utter End
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Nissa, Worldwaker
1 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
Dan Musser won a PTQ with the above list. It grinds well, trumps the mid-range mirror and gets better post board against UB Control (allegedly, but 4 Read the Bones ain't a joke).
Being a control player at heart, I'd take 72 of his 75 to regionals if I were on Abzan. It's very good against creature decks.
According to this article, Mr. Musser had a slightly different sideboard in his PTQ winning list. (is the above from his list that top 8ed the SCG event?) The Back to Nature was replaced with the fourth Bile Blight.
I want a Gameday playmat. As a strictly local, at heart non-competitive player, I love to make synergy decks, but I don't believe they give me the reasonable chance to win the mat. This is the deal with the devil that I can live with. I'll be testing this tonight and Monday at one of my LGSes. I have made a few tweaks that I hope don't make this strictly worse.
Mainboard: -1 Windswept Heath, +1 Forest (I hate not having anything to fetch); -1 End Hostilities, +1 Duneblast (greedy, and probably incorrect)
Sideboard: -1 Glare of Heresy, +1 Garruk, Apex Predator (Ugin, Ashiok), -1 Murderous Cut, +1 Hero's Downfall (Ashiok, Sorin, Elspeth), -1 Read the Bones, +1 Erebos, God of the Dead (greed, and he's been really good for me).
I am also considering replacing the 4th Bile Blight in the side with a Mistcutter Hydra, as I expect more UB control than token decks.
Gentle feedback welcomed!
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
So anyways...
I disagree with taking out the Windswept Heath. The only drawback is you not being able to fetch a land (and taking a point of life loss), which is an extremely rare occurrence. The benefits far outweigh that. Further, you have Urborg to make it a swamp.. further reducing the chance of the Heath being a dead card.
I don't think you should take out the End Hostilities for Duneblast. Your bane is fast decks, not slow and grindy.
Lastly.. I really don't think a single Mistcutter is enough to make it worth it against control. You do have Liliana though, so effectively there's a better chance of getting it.. but I just think he needs more of a presence.
Thanks for the clearly experienced, thoughtful and prompt reply!
Addressing your points in order:
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
I did the math on him and turn 5 or 6 (provided you hit all your land drops) gives the fastest clock on a non-lifegain opponent (including counting the turns you spent NOT casting him).
However, I still scratch my head at understanding the effectiveness of singleton sideboard cards (IE: Nissa). How do you expect to win if Nissa is in the back half of your library and she's your defense against control?
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
Error #1: I panicked and took Ugin because Ugin is usually very game-winning against Abzan.
Error #2: I used Nissa's ultimate, not realizing that it can only get basic lands from my library, and also not realizing that there were no more basic lands in my library.
I then tilted the rest of the day and lost the remaining 2 rounds.
What I mean by diminishing returns is that I gain more by going from 0 to 1 Mistcutters in hand (or on the board) than I gain by going from 1 to 2. Likewise going from 2 to 3 is even less beneficial.
I'm starting to get it. This is a control deck that uses Coursers for card draw and lifegain. With so many draw spells, the answers go further.
I am not defending 1 Nissa, but just stating my learning more generally about how the deck functions. I just copied Musser's list and made a few tweaks. I do think Nissa is much worse now that UB has Crux. She is good against Ugin, but UB not having to rely on Vault makes her worse.
Worst play in the history of the game? That deserves it's own thread. I feel for you.
My favorite candidate was my UB control opponent who was attacking with ~6 Empty the Pits tokens against my blocking Reclamation Sage. He cast his russian Aetherspouts, thinking he could choose to have it sweep blockers back to the deck, but instead annihilated all his own attackers.
At a LGS event, I took my worsified Musser list to 3-0-1 last night, good for 2nd place.
R1: UW Heroic: draw (the draw was almost certainly pilot rather than deck weakness)
R2: UB Control: win
R3: Jeskai Ascendancy Tokens: win
R4: Temur Midreange: win
Ugin and Tasigur are amazing. I love the way there are hardly any bad topdecks. I am still figuring out the sideboarding. Is anybody else running off the Musser list? Would it be useful to review sideboard plans?
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
I'm legitimately asking, not trying to argue or anything.
He's not a legendary, so just cast the 2nd one and make a faster clock (or keep him in reserve).
I can see a case being made for hydra 3 and 4.. but certainly having a 2nd one isn't detrimental as backup for the first (or that faster clock).
[EDIT: Oh, I think I see it now..
(these are just random numbers to illustrate my thinking)
0 hydras: 0% chance of winning
1 hydra: 30% chance of winning
2 hydras: 40% chance of winning
That's what you're talking about, right?]
4x Windswept Heath
3x Temple of Malady
3x Temple of Plenty
3x Sandsteppe Citadel
2x Llanowar Wastes
1x Caves of Koilos
3x Plains
1x Swamp
3x Forest
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Creatures (19):
4x Rakshasa Deathdealer
4x Courser of Kruphix
4x Anafenza, the Foremost
4x Siege Rhino
2x Wingmate Roc
1x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1x Liliana Vess
1x Garruk, Apex Predator
Artifacts (1):
1x Whip of Erebos
Instants (10):
3x Hero's Downfall
3x Abzan Charm
2x Bile Blight
2x Valorous Stance
Sorceries (4):
4x Thoughtsieze
1x Erebos, God of the Dead
4x Mistcutter Hydra
3x Back to Nature
1x Hero's Downfall
3x Liliana Vess
3x Drown in Sorrow
4x Windswept Heath
3x Temple of Malady
3x Temple of Plenty
3x Sandsteppe Citadel
2x Llanowar Wastes
1x Caves of Koilos
3x Plains
2x Swamp
3x Forest
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Creatures (19):
4x Sylvan Caryatid
4x Courser of Kruphix
4x Temur Sabertooth
4x Siege Rhino
3x Wingmate Roc
1x Liliana Vess
1x Garruk, Apex Predator
Artifacts (1):
1x Whip of Erebos
Instants (6):
2x Hero's Downfall
2x Abzan Charm
2x Bile Blight
Sorceries (7):
4x Thoughtsieze
2x Drown in Sorrow
1x Crux of Fate
1x Erebos, God of the Dead
4x Mistcutter Hydra
3x Back to Nature
1x Hero's Downfall
3x Liliana Vess
1x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2x Drown in Sorrow
The first is obviously more aggro, and the second more control/"combo" (I use the term loosely, but it IS fun to stall a game until I have 12 lands and I can play 2 Siege Rhinos every turn...). Not sure which one I'd rather sleeve up right now. Thoughts?
I've yet to have Caryatid be a relevant blocker (unfortunately).
Block a Swiftspear.. Titan's Strength or Defiant Strike.
Monstery Mentor / Seeker of the Way.. burn to the face.
Fleecemane.. no luck there.
Rabblemaster.. no luck here either.
Part of the problem is I'm also unwilling to risk my Caryatid early because I have a bunch of stuff in the 4 cost range.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
Exactly! In my opinion, for many (most?) cards, the first gives the greatest benefit. Subsequent copies provide benefits, just not as much benefit.
So for whatever estimate I have of incremental winning chance improvement across my meta for each card, the second copy will have a lesser effect than the first. In theory, the later copies could be worse than the first copy of some other card, so I shouldn't have four of each.
In practice, the error bars on my estimate of my meta and the incremental effect of any card in a given matchup are not much more than guesswork, so I
netdeckrely on the wisdom of others with greater skill, knowledge and experience.RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
Wanted to add that my group has now done some pretty extensive testing with Wildcall and have come to the conclusion that it is just okay. It's usually worse than Lion and Deathdealer. It's occasionally much, much better. I expect that if Abzan survives the rotation it will become a feature card in the deck, but that's looking forward a bit far at this point.
A pair of Warden of the First Tree has been performing excellently both in testing and in actual tournaments.
Mardu variants and G/x devotion decks remain the toughest matches.
Keep Abzan Advantage on your radars.
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
Right now, with UB gaining popularity, I feel that the more aggressive versions of the deck are most ideally positioned.
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU