I am definitely intrigued by the card as well. It sits at cmc 3, which is a rough spot, but it deserves testing for sure.
Nissa, Worldwaker should be considered as well. We know it's a powerful card. The deck isn't going to be running a lot of Forests, but the potential of 4/4 trampling lands needs to be examined.
I don't understand the point of Satyr Wayfinder in this deck at all. You have plenty of ramp and a 1/1 creature does you very little. You aren't going for a delve strategy either, so I don't really see what the point for including him is.
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No idea because my favorite decks keep getting banned or having the rules changed against them
the deck has moved away from the kitschy synergy of pharika, god of affliction and hence has removed Satyr Wayfinder. your observations are correct. good decks play good cards, and on their own those cards are subpar.
I had totally forgotten about Fleecemane Lion! I really like your list. I need to think about it for awhile. You're totally correct about the base shell. I've added your list to the first post. My concern for you is that you've got a lot of mana and not a lot of dumps for it, although ramping into Elspeth is always good.
I had totally forgotten about Fleecemane Lion! I really like your list. I need to think about it for awhile. You're totally correct about the base shell. I've added your list to the first post. My concern for you is that you've got a lot of mana and not a lot of dumps for it, although ramping into Elspeth is always good.
Ya it might be right to just dump the 4 mystics, dump a land and add Anafenza, Sorin, and something else.
Alright, this is obviously the deck I am choosing. I have been lurking all of these Abzan Midrange threads and dropping little bits here and there but, here is what I am going to start with.
Fleecemane Lion over Rakshasa Deathdealer. This is purely speculative at this point and relies entirely on whether or not the meta support the decision. Basically I see it as, Fleecemane is a one time get the ability and it sticks, which is great unless your opponent can play chump blockers for them. I like him better because I don't have to leave mana up for him every turn but the flipside is obviously, it doesn't deal with fatties like the Deathdealer can.
Brimaz. I love playing Brimaz, simple as that. But he also is a good card and I think this shell provides him the place to shine like everyone knew he COULD during THS but he never got his spot light in the already fine tuned decks dominating standard. This leads to my next point...
Sorin. Sorin's +1 is amazing with Brimaz. It turns him into a 6 power lifelinking blocker. And all your 1/1 vigilant cats are 2/1 lifelinkers! Not to mention all of Elspeth's army.
Banishing Light over Bile Blight. I don't see the need for a double black removal spell to kill off tokens when I have Brimaz, Courser, Caryatid AND Elspeth. The tokens are not a big enough deal to keep a removal spell on deck specifically for them. That's sideboard material folks. And you'll notice I didn't include Bile Blight at all... I feel like Drown in Sorrow is plenty. Yeah, its a little more pricey but it's there for tokens. End Hostilities needs a place to wipe out all the fatties if need be. So there ya go.
Now the big one. I can already hear the outcries of SHAAAAAME for having something like Plea for Guidance in my deck. It serves ONE purpose and that purpose is to tutor Athreos. Athreos is amazing against control and having him in the side board as a two of just isnt consistent enough for me to call it good. I board him and Plea in and then I can tutor him and a banishing light for when control banishing lights my banishing light to get their Elspeth back. Then I Athreos, banishing light your banishing light to get my banishing light back and banishing light your elspeth again..... right? sure..
Anyway, I think this is the list I'm going to go with for the first few weeks at least. And I already have most of these cards so it shouldn't cost me an arm and a leg to get going.
Sorin. Sorin's +1 is amazing with Brimaz. It turns him into a 6 power lifelinking blocker. And all your 1/1 vigilant cats are 2/1 lifelinkers! Not to mention all of Elspeth's army.
Minor rules note, but this doesn't quite work the way you want it to. Sorin's +1 applies to all creatures currently on your field when you use it. Anybody that comes in afterwards (such as the token Brimaz makes) gets no bonus. So Sorin still only gives +1/+0 to Brimaz, though he definitely synergizes with the tokens in later turns.
Is there a reason Polukranos, World Eater has been left out of consideration? I feel like he'd be worth using as a 2-3 of to diversify your threats and act as a late game mana sink.
Oh yeah, I suppose that makes sense... Still though it takes Brimaz from 4 to 5 power and 4 of it is lifelink. As for Pookie, I'm just not sure what I would want to give up for him. I could shave one Courser and one Fleecemane and put a couple in but I feel like I lose consistency with that. Maybe a Courser and a Brimaz... I dunno. Like I said, jeopardizing the stability of the deck is my concern. You get too many two-ofs and three-ofs and your deck ends up too inconsistent to meet its goals.
I think that's a really good idea. Nice list! I want to hear how Abzan Ascendancy works for you. I'm going to add your list to the first page as an example of a Nissa version, once you drop an updated list without the Evolving Wilds.
I'd probably replace Reaper, personally. She just doesn't seem powerful enough, especially compared to a card that costs the same, but offers a 5/5 body over a 4/5 one, and the potential to grow larger and kill things.
Edit: That said, it's based on theorycrafting at the moment. We'll have to see how it plays, after all.
I think that's a really good idea. Nice list! I want to hear how Abzan Ascendancy works for you. I'm going to add your list to the first page as an example of a Nissa version, once you drop an updated list without the Evolving Wilds.
No problem, I'm glad this deck is getting this kind of attention and work! We've got 3 solid varieties in the first post for people to consider. Getting in on the ground floor of a new archetype is exciting work.
A card I'm considering for the sideboard: Phyrexian Revoker. It's obviously pretty good against planeswalkers, but I'm going to take a look around at post-rotation decks and see if it's worth a flew slots. Against planeswalkers alone we've probably got better answers in despise, utter end, and hero's downfall. just a thought.
The first card I think we should all be playing in the board is Drown in Sorrow. It should hurt us minimally (not at all in lists running Fleecemane Lion instead of Rakshasa Deathdealer), and Mardu and RabbleRed are going to be scary fast. Bile Blight is worth siding for the same reason.
Of course Grim Guardian and Underworld Coinsmith could be replaced by Sylvan Caryatid and Courser of Kruphix
but the lifegain for us and loss for the opponent really adds up. Eidolon of Blossoms must be answered, otherwise
the draws from it are getting out of hand pretty quickly. Still need to find room for 1-2 more removal spells. Any advice
on what to change or is this a list none of you would consider taking a closer look at?
something to consider: a sideboard answer to dredge/delve and other graveyard stuff is probably going to be necessary. Tormod's Crypt is available, but so is Cranial Archive. Archive feels sexy because of the card draw and versatility, and while i have yet to test against sultai or mono-black (having only tested against rabblered and mardu decks), i tend to not think of Crypt's speed being essential.
Testing so far has shown me that I would probably like both Sorin, Solemn Visitor and Nissa, Worldwaker, to instead be Elspeth, Sun's Champion. Sorin has underperformed at every turn, even against the aggro matches that I was running him for. Nissa, meanwhile, is routinely getting my lands killed and having 3 1/1 soldiers in the place of those trees would have been superior in almost every instance. My decklist in the first post has been updated accordingly.
also, Utter End is just clogging up my hand against half of the field, at least. replaced the 2 main with 2 fleecemane lion to further lower the curve.
monoblack aggro is running a LOT of hand disruption, and it's going to be popular when rotation hits. Dark Betrayal is obviously excellent against them, but in the short term i'm at a bit of a loss for playing against an opponent with that much discard. ideas wanted!
Nissa, Worldwaker should be considered as well. We know it's a powerful card. The deck isn't going to be running a lot of Forests, but the potential of 4/4 trampling lands needs to be examined.
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
Right now I am testing this build
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Fleecemane Lion
2 Rakshasa Deathdealer
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Siege Rhino
Spells (12)
4 Thoughtseize
3 Abzan Charm
3 Hero's Downfall
1 Banishing Light
1 Silence the Believers
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Nissa, Worldwaker
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Lands (24)
2 Llanowar Wastes
2 Caves of Koilos
4 Temple of Malady
4 Temple of Silence
4 Windswept Heath
1 Sandsteppe Citadel
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
I think the Shell of this deck should probably be something like
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Siege Rhino
And most likely add either 4 Fleecemane Lion/Rakshasa Deathdealer
For Spells I would imagine
3-4 Thoughtseize
2-3 Abzan Charm
2-3 Hero's Downfall although I can see this being a full 4 of if the meta is right for it
As far as PW go I would imagine running 2-4 Elspeth, Sun's Champion is the correct choice. Not sure what other PW would be included yet.
This is just a very rough list and the manabase could probably be tuned but I will see after testing.
Cash? Credit? Gold? or Jace?
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
Ya it might be right to just dump the 4 mystics, dump a land and add Anafenza, Sorin, and something else.
EDIT: Changed my list above with changes
Cash? Credit? Gold? or Jace?
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Fleecemane Lion
3 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4 Siege Rhino
Planeswalkers
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Spells
4 Hero's Downfall
2 Abzan Charm
2 Banishing Light
3 Utter End
2 Thoughtseize
4 Windswept Heath
4 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Malady
3 Llanowar Wastes
3 Caves of Koilos
3 Forest
3 Plains
2 Abzan Charm
2 End Hostilities
2 Drown in Sorrow
2 Banishing Light
2 Despise
2 Thoughtseize
1 Plea for Guidance
2 Athreos, God of Passage
Alright, taking it from the top...
Fleecemane Lion over Rakshasa Deathdealer. This is purely speculative at this point and relies entirely on whether or not the meta support the decision. Basically I see it as, Fleecemane is a one time get the ability and it sticks, which is great unless your opponent can play chump blockers for them. I like him better because I don't have to leave mana up for him every turn but the flipside is obviously, it doesn't deal with fatties like the Deathdealer can.
Brimaz. I love playing Brimaz, simple as that. But he also is a good card and I think this shell provides him the place to shine like everyone knew he COULD during THS but he never got his spot light in the already fine tuned decks dominating standard. This leads to my next point...
Sorin. Sorin's +1 is amazing with Brimaz. It turns him into a 6 power lifelinking blocker. And all your 1/1 vigilant cats are 2/1 lifelinkers! Not to mention all of Elspeth's army.
Banishing Light over Bile Blight. I don't see the need for a double black removal spell to kill off tokens when I have Brimaz, Courser, Caryatid AND Elspeth. The tokens are not a big enough deal to keep a removal spell on deck specifically for them. That's sideboard material folks. And you'll notice I didn't include Bile Blight at all... I feel like Drown in Sorrow is plenty. Yeah, its a little more pricey but it's there for tokens. End Hostilities needs a place to wipe out all the fatties if need be. So there ya go.
Now the big one. I can already hear the outcries of SHAAAAAME for having something like Plea for Guidance in my deck. It serves ONE purpose and that purpose is to tutor Athreos. Athreos is amazing against control and having him in the side board as a two of just isnt consistent enough for me to call it good. I board him and Plea in and then I can tutor him and a banishing light for when control banishing lights my banishing light to get their Elspeth back. Then I Athreos, banishing light your banishing light to get my banishing light back and banishing light your elspeth again..... right? sure..
Anyway, I think this is the list I'm going to go with for the first few weeks at least. And I already have most of these cards so it shouldn't cost me an arm and a leg to get going.
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
Is there a reason Polukranos, World Eater has been left out of consideration? I feel like he'd be worth using as a 2-3 of to diversify your threats and act as a late game mana sink.
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
4x Sylvan Caryatid
3x Fleecemane Lion
4x Courser of Kruphix
2x Anafenza, the Foremost
4x Siege Rhino
2x Polukranos, World Eater
Instants/Sorceries/Enchantments: 11
4x Thoughtseize
3x Hero's Downfall
3x Abzan Charm
1x Abzan Ascendancy
2x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2x Nissa, Worldwaker
1x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Lands: 25
4x Sandsteppe Citadel
4x Windswept Heath
3x Llanowar Wastes
2x Temple of Malady
2x Temple of Silence
1x Temple of Plenty
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Forest
3x Plains
2x Swamp
Probably gonna take out the Evolving Wilds and a Forest for scry lands. Thoughts?
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
Edit: That said, it's based on theorycrafting at the moment. We'll have to see how it plays, after all.
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Fleecemane Lion
2 Rakshasa Deathdealer
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Siege Rhino
Spells (12)
4 Thoughtseize
3 Abzan Charm
3 Hero's Downfall
1 Banishing Light
1 Silence the Believers
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Nissa, Worldwaker
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Lands (24)
2 Llanowar Wastes
2 Caves of Koilos
3 Temple of Malady
3 Temple of Silence
4 Windswept Heath
3 Sandsteppe Citadel
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
Cash? Credit? Gold? or Jace?
Fixed, and thanks!
A card I'm considering for the sideboard: Phyrexian Revoker. It's obviously pretty good against planeswalkers, but I'm going to take a look around at post-rotation decks and see if it's worth a flew slots. Against planeswalkers alone we've probably got better answers in despise, utter end, and hero's downfall. just a thought.
The first card I think we should all be playing in the board is Drown in Sorrow. It should hurt us minimally (not at all in lists running Fleecemane Lion instead of Rakshasa Deathdealer), and Mardu and RabbleRed are going to be scary fast. Bile Blight is worth siding for the same reason.
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
I believe that these guys are working on an Abzan Enchantments list that would be the sort of thing you'd be able to help with: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/competitive/established-standard/559767-primer-b-w-x-enchantments-std-death-and-taxes
On that note: if that deck ever gets big, we have Back to Nature available in the board.
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
2 elspeth
1 nissa
1 garruk
I'm rly excited to swap my eidolon of blossoms and banishing lights for abzan charm and siege rhino
Arbor Colossus may deserve a spot in the board to deal with prognostic sphinx (even if only via blocking).
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
4 Temple of Malady
1 Temple of Plenty
1 Temple of Silence
3 Llanowar Wastes
3 Caves of Koilos
3 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Rakshasa Deathdealer
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Anafenza, the Foremost
4 Siege Rhino
2 Reaper of the Wilds
Sorceries 3
3 Thoughtseize
4 Hero's Downfall
3 Abzan Charm
2 Utter End
Planeswalkers 4
2 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
Cash? Credit? Gold? or Jace?
edited to add:
Testing so far has shown me that I would probably like both Sorin, Solemn Visitor and Nissa, Worldwaker, to instead be Elspeth, Sun's Champion. Sorin has underperformed at every turn, even against the aggro matches that I was running him for. Nissa, meanwhile, is routinely getting my lands killed and having 3 1/1 soldiers in the place of those trees would have been superior in almost every instance. My decklist in the first post has been updated accordingly.
also, Utter End is just clogging up my hand against half of the field, at least. replaced the 2 main with 2 fleecemane lion to further lower the curve.
monoblack aggro is running a LOT of hand disruption, and it's going to be popular when rotation hits. Dark Betrayal is obviously excellent against them, but in the short term i'm at a bit of a loss for playing against an opponent with that much discard. ideas wanted!
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU