Hey everyone, going to SCG Oakland this weekend and trying to decide on the build I want to use. These are the two decks I've been playing around with. One is essentially Ari Lax's list with elvish mystics 2 Sorins, 3 Elspeths and 2 Ajanis. I like that there is a bigger threat top end with this deck, but topdecking the mystics bother me. The other list has a 3,2,1 split with planeswalkers, so less beef, but gets to play some smaller cats, like fleecemane lion and rakshasha deathdealer in some split, where I have been really liking the versatility of deathdealer an early aggressor and a late resilient creature resistant to removal. You could go deeper into the cats build and cut the Rocs or some removal to add more cats and take advantage of Sorin. I had 1-of the Roc in that kind of build so accommodate a 3/3 split with the cats and dropped a hero's downfall in the main.
I just don't know what I should run for the SCG Open and would like some discussion or suggestions. These are the decks I'm wondering about for reference.
I have a sense that Ari's list is really tight and shouldn't be messed with too much (except for maybe switch the 3rd downfall with one of the bile blights in the main for aggro metas). At the beginning I thought to just replace the mystics with 2 cats, but being able to cast one of the elspeths every time you draw her makes the mystic really good.
As for the cats/mystic-less list, I think the planeswalker split is right, but don't know if I should go all in on cats and make it a 3/3 split, either cutting both Rocs, or 1 Roc and a seize, to take full advantage of Sorin. On the other hand, I could also cut down the cats as a small splash for a late game, hard to deal with monstrous fleecemane or deathdealer with mana up. With this build I would actually keep both Rocs and both Utter Ends and instead split the deathdealer/fleecemane 2/1 (Since fleecemane is really just a 3/3 for 2 unless it's later game where you can monstrous immediately or next turn).
Sorry for the wall of text, I just really don't have many people to bounce ideas off and the changes I would be making are so small and nuanced that I'd love an extra pair of eyes on them. I'm currently leaning towards the last 2/1 cat build I described, but only running 2 Elspeths seems like your missing out on having a huge threat more consistently. Any comments are very welcome. Thanks everyone
Here's a great article by Adam Yurchick about the metagame at the recent TCGPlayer Max Point Championships. Mardu absolutely dominated, largely because it matches up very well against Abzan Midrange, both of which were heavily represented.
My take from that article -- and the plain-as-day results -- is that we need to adjust. Ari Lax's deck was very finely tuned for the Jeskai Wins meta of a few weeks ago, but it's clearly not standing up to Mardu. Personally, I feel that our best move is to increase our threat density, and that is best accomplished by reducing rampers and PW's. You'll see my list above; it's done well vs Mardu in testing.
I really agree with your MD Bile Blight. I've been a proponent of this for a while now since I think it is really good in the standard meta right now. I would say it's almost certainly a 1-of in the main, if not your 2-of.
I also wish Anafenza was a better 3 drop. I don't really agree that the route to take is to increase threat density by adding 2 drops (albeit the cats are great and I love them, especially Deathdealer, another thing I agree with you about and another great meta call I think). If Anafenza was better I would totally go 4-of her with the caryatid. I just don't think cutting caryatid is that good. I know the aggro decks do it, but that is to play quicker threats. Your list looks basically like an aggro list, and the link you posted said Abzan Aggro is exactly the worst Abzan metagame call, so I can't really agree with your deck approach. Like I said earlier, I think the deck screams for a 3 drop that is more of a presence than courser and I wish Anafenza were a better option for that slot.
I also don't think it's great to drop Elspeth as she is an absolute house against any midrange decks and can stabilize in game 1 against aggro if you get that far. I may drop it to 1 instead of 2 in my list. If anything I think, like the article said, going over the top of Mardu with something like Garruk and maybe even going a control-y route with only kru, cary and rhino, a bunch of removal, along with PW, and maybe even a MB wipe, though that is a bit sketch. I'm really torn on these flex spots.
I feel like the unquestionable core of any Abzan deck is the following:
That's a solid 19 cards that I don't think you can cut no matter what, which leaves 17 slots to mess around with. I do think it would be a bold move for any Abzan deck to cut Wingmate Roc, but Todd just did it to fill in a higher curve of PW. If you're going aggro, like yours, then you pretty much fill that up with small cats, a mix of three drops like anafenza and herald of torment, with some lists playing Roc.
The big thing about dropping Caryatid is that you can't go as big in your sideboard. Having a Nissa or Lili in the board, along with a single duneblast is really nice. I do think we have to drop a little bit of the planeswalker suite that Ari ran, but I don't know if I'd go as deep into aggro as you did. I would definitely keep caryatid as she is not really a dead draw. I also just like Deathdealer as a concept. Might even go a 3rd Roc. I also don't think it would be a terrible idea to go bigger than cats and put in Reaper of the Wild. It's a card I've been thinking about a lot recently, since every time I think of cutting a Planeswalker for a 2 drop I hurt a little inside. I don't know, I've been stressing super hard about all this and don't really know what to do.
Basically, I know that I want to keep Caryatid and stay Midrange, I also know that I want to shave off the top of the PW suite Ari had, but my problem is that I want to replace them with equally as good threats, like a 4 or 5 drop creature, instead of the smaller cats that everyone seems to be doing. I just think that's the best way to go. I'm not sure how good Reaper is, but I also don't see any other options. I think Deathdealer is the closest thing and he's been beastly every time I play him.
As you can see, I've been doing circles in my head. Any clarity would be sooooooo appreciated
I have been contemplating the removal of Sylvan Caryatid for a while now, and I recently decided to commit to it for a couple reasons. Ari's list is still what I consider to be the best core for Abzan, I don't feel that the 2 drop "threat" package is really where the deck wants to be given that it still has unfavorable matches against Mardu Midrange and GRx Monster decks. Your primary removal suite, regardless of what shell you are running, is the driving force behind why these matches are weak. You are limited on ways to deal with Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker and Stormbreath Dragon when your stuck using your draw spells as removal and Hero's Downfall might as well be the only removal spell you run that is real. Sure, you can still Abzan Charm a Sarkhan but you don't have a way of setting yourself up to deal with things effectively on a 1 for 1 ratio and still come out ahead against things like Goblin Rabblemaster, Elspeth, Sun's Champion or the Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker or Stormbreath Dragon that likes to land in an untimely fashion.
Your removal is your weak spot, not the lack of threat density.
That catch here is that you make your aggro matches kind of funky in game 1. Sorin, Solemn Visitor really allows you to make up for this with things like Courser of Kruphix or Siege Rhino - which gives us some play in game 1 still.
The biggest revelation I have really had since picking up this deck is with Abzan Charm. You want to be using this to draw as often as you possibly can. The deck has a funky way of drawing 0 or 1 Rhino in one game and 3-4 the next and drawing helps you really balance this out. Sylvan Caryatid is one of those cards where I feel people are stuck on the dream of a turn 3 Siege Rhino or Sorin, Solemn Visitor or that ramp into another walker a whole turn earlier. The fact of it is, it just isn't that powerful in these colors unless it is a match you are probably already favored in. I have removed Caryatid for additional support in stable removal with cards like Murderous Cut and Silence the Believers as I feel the extra slots here help you roll out your midrange plan more effectively while giving you tools to prevent disaster from striking. In the games I have played since removing Caryatid, I find that I am often times assuming the control route and just setting up for a big midrange play and focus on attrition more than anything. The singleton Brimaz, King of Oreskos isn't really needed in the main I do not think, but I am running 3 total in the 75 to make up for not running Drown in Sorrow. Pairing them with the 3rd Sorin, Solemn Visitor still gives me a lot of play against aggressive decks while allowing me to get aggressive against more controlling decks - perhaps my favorite thing here is that I get an additional threat that goes under Disdainful Stroke while still avoiding an over saturation of early threats.
Ari's list is solid, focusing more on the walkers gives you a better game against decks running removal. With so much 1 for 1 removal, the value you get from the walker suite is probably the best value you can get in Standard.
I have been contemplating the removal of Sylvan Caryatid for a while now, and I recently decided to commit to it for a couple reasons. Ari's list is still what I consider to be the best core for Abzan, I don't feel that the 2 drop "threat" package is really where the deck wants to be given that it still has unfavorable matches against Mardu Midrange and GRx Monster decks. Your primary removal suite, regardless of what shell you are running, is the driving force behind why these matches are weak. You are limited on ways to deal with Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker and Stormbreath Dragon when your stuck using your draw spells as removal and Hero's Downfall might as well be the only removal spell you run that is real. Sure, you can still Abzan Charm a Sarkhan but you don't have a way of setting yourself up to deal with things effectively on a 1 for 1 ratio and still come out ahead against things like Goblin Rabblemaster, Elspeth, Sun's Champion or the Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker or Stormbreath Dragon that likes to land in an untimely fashion.
Your removal is your weak spot, not the lack of threat density.
That catch here is that you make your aggro matches kind of funky in game 1. Sorin, Solemn Visitor really allows you to make up for this with things like Courser of Kruphix or Siege Rhino - which gives us some play in game 1 still.
The biggest revelation I have really had since picking up this deck is with Abzan Charm. You want to be using this to draw as often as you possibly can. The deck has a funky way of drawing 0 or 1 Rhino in one game and 3-4 the next and drawing helps you really balance this out. Sylvan Caryatid is one of those cards where I feel people are stuck on the dream of a turn 3 Siege Rhino or Sorin, Solemn Visitor or that ramp into another walker a whole turn earlier. The fact of it is, it just isn't that powerful in these colors unless it is a match you are probably already favored in. I have removed Caryatid for additional support in stable removal with cards like Murderous Cut and Silence the Believers as I feel the extra slots here help you roll out your midrange plan more effectively while giving you tools to prevent disaster from striking. In the games I have played since removing Caryatid, I find that I am often times assuming the control route and just setting up for a big midrange play and focus on attrition more than anything. The singleton Brimaz, King of Oreskos isn't really needed in the main I do not think, but I am running 3 total in the 75 to make up for not running Drown in Sorrow. Pairing them with the 3rd Sorin, Solemn Visitor still gives me a lot of play against aggressive decks while allowing me to get aggressive against more controlling decks - perhaps my favorite thing here is that I get an additional threat that goes under Disdainful Stroke while still avoiding an over saturation of early threats.
Ari's list is solid, focusing more on the walkers gives you a better game against decks running removal. With so much 1 for 1 removal, the value you get from the walker suite is probably the best value you can get in Standard.
Ok, so I was starting to think I was the only one to be thinking this way. I think the next iteration of Abzan needs to get more controlly with some additional removal and I like silence the believers against Mardu, but I do think a bile blight would be better; that card is insane right now methinks. I'm also not sure I like running Brimaz over drown in sorrow because it's such a blowout, but hey, to each his own. I think those who were building the deck mentioned in a deck tech that they specifically chose a lot of their removal so that it would not be dead against control matchups, which I think are not going to be as prevalent as midrange and aggro, at least this weekend in the tournament I'm going to. I think switching this up to better accommodate the current meta is certainly the way to go. I haven't explored it too much, and I do like your list. I completely agree that Abzan Charm should be more of a card draw.
The way I went was to keep caryatid, add 2 mystics, add another land and go bigger on the threat scale. This is the list I brewed up this morning, but I haven't gotten to play it and probably won't until tonight. I like your list, though, because it removes dead draws in caryatid and is lower on the curve, but the only problem real I can see is the heavy color requirements in all three colors. The biggest inclusions for me are garruk, apex predator and Aegis Angel, which I think is a card right now if you're going big. I would love comments on it =). Either way, I think I'm leaning towards Planeswalkers; I just think they are too good in the meta right now.
Edit: You know, I really just put up my list in case I stumbled upon something cool, and I do think it has some potential, but your list with liliana and the lower curve does seem like a slightly better choice for a tournament. The only change I would make to your list is replace the silence the believers with a bile blight, then move a murderous cut and a Brimaz to the board to put in two sylvan caryatid. I'm still worried about consistency and honestly caryatid does a fine job of slowing aggro down.
Here's a great article by Adam Yurchick about the metagame at the recent TCGPlayer Max Point Championships. Mardu absolutely dominated, largely because it matches up very well against Abzan Midrange, both of which were heavily represented.
My take from that article -- and the plain-as-day results -- is that we need to adjust. Ari Lax's deck was very finely tuned for the Jeskai Wins meta of a few weeks ago, but it's clearly not standing up to Mardu. Personally, I feel that our best move is to increase our threat density, and that is best accomplished by reducing rampers and PW's. You'll see my list above; it's done well vs Mardu in testing.
I really agree with your MD Bile Blight. I've been a proponent of this for a while now since I think it is really good in the standard meta right now. I would say it's almost certainly a 1-of in the main, if not your 2-of.
I also wish Anafenza was a better 3 drop. I don't really agree that the route to take is to increase threat density by adding 2 drops (albeit the cats are great and I love them, especially Deathdealer, another thing I agree with you about and another great meta call I think). If Anafenza was better I would totally go 4-of her with the caryatid. I just don't think cutting caryatid is that good. I know the aggro decks do it, but that is to play quicker threats. Your list looks basically like an aggro list, and the link you posted said Abzan Aggro is exactly the worst Abzan metagame call, so I can't really agree with your deck approach. Like I said earlier, I think the deck screams for a 3 drop that is more of a presence than courser and I wish Anafenza were a better option for that slot.
I also don't think it's great to drop Elspeth as she is an absolute house against any midrange decks and can stabilize in game 1 against aggro if you get that far. I may drop it to 1 instead of 2 in my list. If anything I think, like the article said, going over the top of Mardu with something like Garruk and maybe even going a control-y route with only kru, cary and rhino, a bunch of removal, along with PW, and maybe even a MB wipe, though that is a bit sketch. I'm really torn on these flex spots.
I feel like the unquestionable core of any Abzan deck is the following:
That's a solid 19 cards that I don't think you can cut no matter what, which leaves 17 slots to mess around with. I do think it would be a bold move for any Abzan deck to cut Wingmate Roc, but Todd just did it to fill in a higher curve of PW. If you're going aggro, like yours, then you pretty much fill that up with small cats, a mix of three drops like anafenza and herald of torment, with some lists playing Roc.
The big thing about dropping Caryatid is that you can't go as big in your sideboard. Having a Nissa or Lili in the board, along with a single duneblast is really nice. I do think we have to drop a little bit of the planeswalker suite that Ari ran, but I don't know if I'd go as deep into aggro as you did. I would definitely keep caryatid as she is not really a dead draw. I also just like Deathdealer as a concept. Might even go a 3rd Roc. I also don't think it would be a terrible idea to go bigger than cats and put in Reaper of the Wild. It's a card I've been thinking about a lot recently, since every time I think of cutting a Planeswalker for a 2 drop I hurt a little inside. I don't know, I've been stressing super hard about all this and don't really know what to do.
Basically, I know that I want to keep Caryatid and stay Midrange, I also know that I want to shave off the top of the PW suite Ari had, but my problem is that I want to replace them with equally as good threats, like a 4 or 5 drop creature, instead of the smaller cats that everyone seems to be doing. I just think that's the best way to go. I'm not sure how good Reaper is, but I also don't see any other options. I think Deathdealer is the closest thing and he's been beastly every time I play him.
As you can see, I've been doing circles in my head. Any clarity would be sooooooo appreciated
This is turning into a great discussion. Thanks for your thoughts. I'll try to defend my choices while considering your feedback.
I run two Bile Blight main because it does a lot of work; even if it's not at its best, it's often a useful combat trick that turns a bad block into an even trade (our BB for their monster, Courser lives, for example). I'll happily side it out G2 in certain matchups, but I think it's an important inclusion vs faster decks.
Anafenza is a 4/4 for 3 with relevant abilities. Seems pretty good to me, especially if followed up with Sorin next turn, and/or if the opponent runs Whip. Not every creature has to be able to trade evenly with a 4/5.
More important, though, is this discussion of Caryatids, threat density, and two-drops. If you want to keep the ramp strategy, then by all means, do so. I have friends that do well running 4 Courser, 4 Caryatids, then straight into 8-10 4-drop creatures (Siege Rhino, Polukranos, and Reaper) plus some number of Sorin and Roc; but that comes at the expense of removal and other Planeswalkers. So they take a very agressive "Monsters" type of strategy, and can only spot-remove one or two of the opponents' threats.
I like my build because it can usually drop a significant threat at every point on the curve, but also runs a LOT of spot removal, so I can keep opposing threats off the board while mine continue to push in. I think Yurchick (in the above-linked article) may be right about an all-in Abzan aggro strategy, but that's not my deck. He runs twice as many 2-drops (including Heir to the Wilds, which I don't imagine worked well) and several less spot-removal, plus no Coursers or Rocs. He's taken the idea too far.
My point is that Abzan has a TON of excellent tools at its disposal, and I think a well-balanced build will match up fairly well vs the entire field. In a limited card pool, we already have a glut of powerful options at 4 mana, but it takes work to get to 4, and I don't think we should hurry to get there if we can play more productive spells along the way. (I almost feel like I'm talking about the Dark Side: "quicker, more seductive" lol). If I were to add a 4-drop creature, it would certainly be a couple of Reapers, but the numbers have to make sense, and I don't want to get top-heavy.
I simply got tired of top-decking Caryatids in the late-game when I want removal or a threat, or six-or seven-drops that I could "almost cast." We don't NEED to be there to win! And if I don't run Caryatid, I can't run too many cards costing 4 or more.
My favorite thing about Abzan is the ability to shift roles all along the spectrum from aggro to control. Somewhere in there is a great build that pumps out threats vs slow decks, but can handle the rush of fast aggro decks AND the sizable monsters and PW's like Butcher and Sarkhan. I envision the SB as having a transformative aspect, to enable that spectrum shift.
I hope you keep working with the Caryatid build and share your results. I'll do the same; probably some observations if not feedback by the weekend.
Kamahl, I gotta say, I think you solved my quandry. I like Liliana MB and I think this can be a killer build. I did end up cutting a bit of the removal suite to beef up the PW. You said it yourself, PW are great in the meta right now against 1 for 1, but I don't think you go far enough with it; you only have 6 PW. Here's the list I will be testing, which is yours modified a bit:
For some reason, I'm too much of a coward to just cut the caryatid's completely, but if many of the classic lists run 2 Mystics "just to make sure you get to your mana", then I think using the same justification for only 2 Caryatids is valid.
I may ultimately be wrong about cutting removal for more PW, but I think the beef is necessary or you risk not actually executing your gameplan if they remove them. I really like the MD wipe and the various 1-of removal, and I think your explanation for them is right on. I go with the 4 Drowns in the SB because I've used them and it's such a blowout, I just want to get that feeling at the tourney I'm playing in. I'm shaky on the Whip and Anafenza in the SB, but Whip I think can be really good against grindy matchups and the random Anafenza I think is there in case I go against a Sidisi deck, and she's not that bad against Jeskai and other creature-based blue that would run delve. I would even bring her in against control matchups as another random body.
Edit: I don't think Whip will work with the low creature count. I'm always 99% tempted to throw a garruk, apex predator because I want him to be a thing. I will probably end up just playing another naturalize or and unravel the aether to shore up against Ascendancy, Whip, and Vault decks.
I envision the SB as having a transformative aspect, to enable that spectrum shift.
I want to focus on this, because there's a really interesting idea here. Could we build a sort of mid-range deck with sideboard capable of transforming the deck into either an aggro deck or a control deck? I'm thinking, if we devote 4 cards in the sideboard for a strong 1-drop and 4 cards for a strong 2-drop, swap out caryatids and some other slow stuff like wingmate roc or elspeth... then for the control side, go with liliana, more removal, perhaps despise, and aim to win with elspeth ultimate.
I dunno, just an idea to go with whatever variant on this deck is strongest against each matchup, plus possibly nerfing a lot of what the opponent sideboards in.
I envision the SB as having a transformative aspect, to enable that spectrum shift.
I want to focus on this, because there's a really interesting idea here. Could we build a sort of mid-range deck with sideboard capable of transforming the deck into either an aggro deck or a control deck? I'm thinking, if we devote 4 cards in the sideboard for a strong 1-drop and 4 cards for a strong 2-drop, swap out caryatids and some other slow stuff like wingmate roc or elspeth... then for the control side, go with liliana, more removal, perhaps despise, and aim to win with elspeth ultimate.
I dunno, just an idea to go with whatever variant on this deck is strongest against each matchup, plus possibly nerfing a lot of what the opponent sideboards in.
This is the approach I have been taking with the list I just posted. I will side out removal and go in on Brimaz and Courser to chip away with Rhino triggers to keep constant pressure and then go big when there is a window for it.
Alternatively, against creature based decks I go heavy on the control side of things and focus on removal and heavy hitters to stabilize or swing the game.
Now, don't get me wrong, the Reaper's pretty strong, but the Sentinels can get pretty big too.
Thoughts?
Clearly Siege Rhino is better.
Second-best 4-mana creature: Reaper of the Wilds because it protects itself, kills anything it engages, and gives Scry.
Third-best is probably Polukranos because it's 5/5 and can act as spot removal.
Your High Sentinels are great to draft, but they don't stand well on their own like these others do; they NEED other creatures to stay in play to get the most out of them. Beyond that it's a huge mana investment to get that ability to function.
What is the best sideboard option against UB Control? Right now I have 3 Phyrexian Revoker, since it shuts down Ashiok, Pearl-Lake Ancient, and Sphinx. But usually it just eats a Hero's Downfall or Murderous Cut and then they play the threat. I've heard about Stain the Mind as an option... but I'm wondering if it's likely to just be countered, and we might be putting too much reliance on that card succeeding.
I've been thinking a lot about Ajani, Mentor of Heroes in the midrange build, and the more I think, the less I like him. The numbers just don't feel right.
Take at look at Kamahl's list (above) for example -- not picking on you man, just a readily-accessible example. I think the overall changes are moving in a great direction, but even so, we have 16 creatures and PW's (besides Ajani himself) that you might find with the second [+1] ability. Assuming typical draws so far (i.e. the creature to non-creature ratio of the deck is the same as 16/60), you've got about a 72% chance of finding a target on each activation.
So I have to ask: why Ajani? Clearly Scry and Courser make him better; is that the basis of the plan? If we have courser in play, do we usually let the top card dictate which Ajani [+1] to use? Because I'm definitely not interested in paying five mana for a PW that gives me a 28% chance of whiffing on an activation every turn, but he seems to be a popular inclusion as a 1- or 2-of.
His other +1 is really useful, too, though. A single activation of the first +1 can enable a Courser to kill Siege Rhino and live. Ajani's not just for searching.
I've been thinking a lot about Ajani, Mentor of Heroes in the midrange build, and the more I think, the less I like him. The numbers just don't feel right.
Take at look at Kamahl's list (above) for example -- not picking on you man, just a readily-accessible example. I think the overall changes are moving in a great direction, but even so, we have 16 creatures and PW's (besides Ajani himself) that you might find with the second [+1] ability. Assuming typical draws so far (i.e. the creature to non-creature ratio of the deck is the same as 16/60), you've got about a 72% chance of finding a target on each activation.
So I have to ask: why Ajani? Clearly Scry and Courser make him better; is that the basis of the plan? If we have courser in play, do we usually let the top card dictate which Ajani [+1] to use? Because I'm definitely not interested in paying five mana for a PW that gives me a 28% chance of whiffing on an activation every turn, but he seems to be a popular inclusion as a 1- or 2-of.
The card is flexible and even with my list having 17 targets to find on a +1, in the mirror match this is going to go the distance. In any attrition based match, Ajani is king. His ability to start pumping dues also forces a clock in situations where you are not really so much about finding more threats as you are getting them into range of Siege Rhino triggers.
Also, in most cases he is still a 2 for 1 if they want to answer him... and they have to answer him. Multiple activation of any combination are going to put most matches away on their own.
I think Ajani is being included because Ari's list included it. In some article from a member of that team, he explained that Ajani, Mentor of Heroes was included because they believed control decks would be prevalent at the Pro Tour, which is fair because they always seem to be. It was a good call because UB control did show up in significant numbers and Ajani, Mentor of Heroes can help you not be top decking.
That said, I cut it long ago. We aren't seeing UB control at events and certainly not in the later rounds. I also noticed that the more controlling (basically w/ Thoughtseize instead of Fleecemane Lion) builds don't have enough targets to warrant using his middle ability, which is the ability I'm most interested in. I don't think he's good against Mardu because our creatures don't live long enough to benefit from the 3 +1/+1 counters and again the middle ability misses a lot. He's also bad against fast red based aggro which is showing up in large numbers these days.
I use Brimaz, King of Oreskos in its place. I like Brimaz against Mardu because it helps stretch their removal out (something they're good at doing to us) and goes into combat well with Seeker of the Way and Goblin Rabblemaster. It's obviously good against those fast decks and also serves as a strong card against the UB control deck if it does show up as a significant creature that drops early and dodges Disdainful Stroke and Bile Blight. I've even liked Brimaz against the green ramp strategies. In these games, I usually want to be the controller and Brimaz provides good pressure that they have to defend with mana producers while I spend removal on their real creatures. BTW, if the mana producers are Sylvan Caryatid, Elvish Mystic and Rattleclaw Mystic, they can't even profitably go into combat with the cat token.
The only thing I find unattractive about Brimaz is the double white but I've honestly rarely had a problem casting it.
I've been thinking a lot about Ajani, Mentor of Heroes in the midrange build, and the more I think, the less I like him. The numbers just don't feel right.
Take at look at Kamahl's list (above) for example -- not picking on you man, just a readily-accessible example. I think the overall changes are moving in a great direction, but even so, we have 16 creatures and PW's (besides Ajani himself) that you might find with the second [+1] ability. Assuming typical draws so far (i.e. the creature to non-creature ratio of the deck is the same as 16/60), you've got about a 72% chance of finding a target on each activation.
So I have to ask: why Ajani? Clearly Scry and Courser make him better; is that the basis of the plan? If we have courser in play, do we usually let the top card dictate which Ajani [+1] to use? Because I'm definitely not interested in paying five mana for a PW that gives me a 28% chance of whiffing on an activation every turn, but he seems to be a popular inclusion as a 1- or 2-of.
I think you're underestimating how good the other +1 is. It's crazy good. Sorin t4 into Ajani to make a 5/5 flier is beastly.
Plus, his other +1 ensures it replaces itself 3 out of 4 times, that's pretty good, especially if you're getting a threat. I used to think it wasn't that good, but I have been relieved every time I draw it.
What is the best sideboard option against UB Control? Right now I have 3 Phyrexian Revoker, since it shuts down Ashiok, Pearl-Lake Ancient, and Sphinx. But usually it just eats a Hero's Downfall or Murderous Cut and then they play the threat. I've heard about Stain the Mind as an option... but I'm wondering if it's likely to just be countered, and we might be putting too much reliance on that card succeeding.
You haven't tried Nissa? She's a beast. Also Liliana
I think Ajani is being included because Ari's list included it. In some article from a member of that team, he explained that Ajani, Mentor of Heroes was included because they believed control decks would be prevalent at the Pro Tour, which is fair because they always seem to be. It was a good call because UB control did show up in significant numbers and Ajani, Mentor of Heroes can help you not be top decking.
That said, I cut it long ago. We aren't seeing UB control at events and certainly not in the later rounds. I also noticed that the more controlling (basically w/ Thoughtseize instead of Fleecemane Lion) builds don't have enough targets to warrant using his middle ability, which is the ability I'm most interested in. I don't think he's good against Mardu because our creatures don't live long enough to benefit from the 3 +1/+1 counters and again the middle ability misses a lot. He's also bad against fast red based aggro which is showing up in large numbers these days.
I use Brimaz, King of Oreskos in its place. I like Brimaz against Mardu because it helps stretch their removal out (something they're good at doing to us) and goes into combat well with Seeker of the Way and Goblin Rabblemaster. It's obviously good against those fast decks and also serves as a strong card against the UB control deck if it does show up as a significant creature that drops early and dodges Disdainful Stroke and Bile Blight. I've even liked Brimaz against the green ramp strategies. In these games, I usually want to be the controller and Brimaz provides good pressure that they have to defend with mana producers while I spend removal on their real creatures. BTW, if the mana producers are Sylvan Caryatid, Elvish Mystic and Rattleclaw Mystic, they can't even profitably go into combat with the cat token.
The only thing I find unattractive about Brimaz is the double white but I've honestly rarely had a problem casting it.
Brimaz's call has been strong. He seems good in a lot of situations. If I wasn't going for a more PW controlly build, I would definitely add him. I don't think he is strong enough an answer to any deck to be a SB option, but I think he is definitely a strong MB option in the place of others. I definitely like him in a more creature-oriented Midrange build since he isn't really aggro and you really want that big butt and vigilance in the Midrange game. I honestly think he is super strong and probably would go with him if I as going the creature build.
First, lets evaluate why we run Erase. It's primarily for Jeskai Combo to remove the ascendancy part of the combo, but also has application against gods. It doesn't have a whole lot of other great uses. Being a 1 mana instant makes it very easy to hold up mana to use anytime however, and allows us to advance our board while keeping insurance against jeskai comboing off, which is why it is so popular.
Glare is slightly more expensive at 1W and is sorcery speed. The upside is that it also has further applications in the mirror match to remove opposing rhinos, rocs, elspeth, sorin, and actually just about every good threat. It can still remove ascendancy, but not if they play it on their turn and combo immediately. It also doesnt deal with non-white gods or enchantments, such as keranos who does see some play.
Unravel is also more expensive than erase at 1G, but is importantly an instant. It can deal with ascendancy even if they drop it on their turn. It also deals with any god or other enchantment, could even hit a courser if need be. The artifact removal application on unravel has some usefulness against Perilous Vault from U/B control, but other than that i cant think of other relevant artifacts. If control was heavy in the meta i would say unravel would be worth it.
So to review, im thinking Glare is going to be better in Abzan-heavy metas, Unravel in control-heavy metas, and Erase in metas with a lot of Jeskai Combo.
I'd like to know what everyone is using in their SB for this slot and if they have thought about the alternatives. Also, if i missed anything in my evaluation, feel free to add some input.
Thoughtseize is the card I am looking at now that I have cut Sylvan Caryatid. I feel like since cutting Caryatid, I really am just in a position to draw gas and so long as I am not finding a clump of lands, the deck does pretty well at stacking up a game in the face of removal and counter. Thoughtseize is still a top deck I like to dodge, and I am even at a point where I want to examine if running it at all is something of any importance. I see these Mardu decks not even running it in the 75 and it has me wondering if something that produces more card advantage is simply better.
Patrick Chapin has been talking about Read the Bones and since I already know that I would almost always rather be using Abzan Charm to draw, I think it is fitting to examine how important digging through your deck is if you are on the midrange walker style of Abzan. In a perfect world, I would use Charm to draw every time - but it isn't a perfect world. I think something like Read the Bones is going to be a big piece of the puzzle when trying to work out how to solve the Monsters match and Mardu match rather than just trying to target their hand with disruption only to top deck one of these spells later. Duneblast and End Hostilities do a good job of letting us assume the control deck in these matches at times (Mardu is probably the exception).
Thoughtseize is good, but I am wondering if maybe we have it all wrong and the card really is just not how you want to be tackling these matches. They are very top deck dependent matches and they play this really weird durdle dancing game after board.
Thoughtseize is the card I am looking at now that I have cut Sylvan Caryatid. I feel like since cutting Caryatid, I really am just in a position to draw gas and so long as I am not finding a clump of lands, the deck does pretty well at stacking up a game in the face of removal and counter. Thoughtseize is still a top deck I like to dodge, and I am even at a point where I want to examine if running it at all is something of any importance. I see these Mardu decks not even running it in the 75 and it has me wondering if something that produces more card advantage is simply better.
Patrick Chapin has been talking about Read the Bones and since I already know that I would almost always rather be using Abzan Charm to draw, I think it is fitting to examine how important digging through your deck is if you are on the midrange walker style of Abzan. In a perfect world, I would use Charm to draw every time - but it isn't a perfect world. I think something like Read the Bones is going to be a big piece of the puzzle when trying to work out how to solve the Monsters match and Mardu match rather than just trying to target their hand with disruption only to top deck one of these spells later. Duneblast and End Hostilities do a good job of letting us assume the control deck in these matches at times (Mardu is probably the exception).
Thoughtseize is good, but I am wondering if maybe we have it all wrong and the card really is just not how you want to be tackling these matches. They are very top deck dependent matches and they play this really weird durdle dancing game after board.
Thoughts?
I love to have Thoughtseize in the main no matter the opponent. I'll usually play one with removal backup before they untap for a 4-mana play (or earlier if it's an aggro matchup) to disrupt the critical point in their tempo, whatever that may be.
It is probably my most sided-out card, though. It definitely stays in vs control and the Abzan mirror, but comes out vs Jeskai, Rabble, and Mardu as I switch to a removal-heavy build with Drown in Sorrow. I'll probably keep it in vs G and G/R/x Monsters, but I'm not sure yet.
As far as Read the Bones, I've always loved it (and Sign in Blood), but I feel we already gain so much inherent card advantage that it's not worth the card slot, mana or tempo investment. If I wanted to draw more often, I'd bring in more removal to relieve the pressure on Abzan Charm so that I can draw at instant speed instead of my main phase. Also, between Courser, Sorin, Roc, and sometimes Bile Blight, Brimaz, Whip, Lili, Drown in Sorrow, End Hostilities, Elspeth (and the list goes on!), an enormous number of cards in this deck already offer at least a chance at card advantage. Again, we get so many two-for-ones that I don't think we need to specifically invest mana and tempo into that aspect of the game.
Match 1 vs Abzan Mirror 2-1 W
Against a good player who had switched from a real nasty Jund Midrange deck to this. He told me later the the deck was no where ready to be played as he had just put it together that day and needed to be fine tuned like nothing else.
Match 2 vs Abzan Control 2-1 W
This deck I belive was created by one of the top players in our state. It fetures Lilly and Res. Angel and a few other things.
In the end I won the match on a misplay on his part. He had attacked with his Roc + token and rhino while I was at 6 life, he was at 6 life after the roc trigger, I had a taped rhino and a untaped bestowed courser. I blocked he downfalled the coursr after blocks and I pain to gain 3 life with Bow. I go to 1 and he passes thinking that Herald will kill me. I untap gain 3 with bow go to attack he blocks with caryatid and forgets the bow gives deathtouch.
Match 3 vs Boros Agro 2-0 W
This is the one I feared most, as I have played against him before and he usally win out right. It contains Rabble and swift spear and +1/+1 couter raid guy, some burn and titans.
game 1 I actally stablalize with elspeth and and take over from there
game 2 he boards out most of his burn gets me down to 3 before I stableize. He lights and chains my courser and rhinos.
Ok guys, took this to a GPT event and started strong, but ending up 1-1-2 in main event then 2-1 in the standard side event. Overall thoughts - extremely strong, my losses were due to land flood and lack of threats being drawn/unanswerable opponents. I'll summarise below. Its better than the results imply...
GPT R1 - Mardu... 2-1
Game 1: Lost to a Hordeling Outburstfollowed by Sarkhan and burn. I drew all the lands. like 10.
SIDEBOARD: Drown in sorrow (expecting more tokens), end hostilities, brimaz
Game 2: 3 back to back Rhinos from me with incidental lifegain smashed it. Im sure Rhinos are pack animals... See 3/4 or none.
Game 3: Ramped into Walkers and developed huge board presence he couldnt deal with.
GPT R2 - Mardu (more aggro) 1-1-1 (time)
Game 1: Got destroyed. Hordeling Outburst, Butcher of the Horde, Butcher of the Horde. Over by turn 6. Didnt get the removal I needed and butcher is big 5 power trickable flier. Scary.
SIDEBOARD: Drown in Sorrow, Revoker, Hornet Queen
Game 2: Managed to land a Whip of Erebos that comboed nicely with Rhino and the Queen Bee and went from there.
Game 3: Ran out of time, though it was in my favour. Landed a Rhino which got Chained to the Rocks and I had Abzan Charm and Downfall backup for Butcher.
GPT R3 - Jesaki Burn 0-2
Game 1: Traded tempo plays, took out an early Mantis Rider with Bile Blight. He landed Sarkhan, then Mantis Rider, then burnet me to cinders.
SIDEBOARD: Brimaz, Hornet Queen, Revoker, Stain the Mind
Game 2: I drew no threats at all. He drew 4 land and buuuuurn.
GPT R4 - Gb Devotion/Constellation 0-2
Game 1: I dealt zero damage whilst he Blossomed into monsters. I think this is one of the hardest game 1's we have as we cannot overrun them.
SIDEBOARD: Boardwipes, additional Elspeth, 2x Drown in Sorrow, Hornet Queen
Game 2: THoughtsiezed early, saw from that (and courser) he had 2x Arbor Colossus, Genesis Hydra, Nykthos, Nylea, Polukranos and land. Was not going to be a fun day. I couldnt land any blockers to compare and again got overrun before any wipes or elspeth turned up.
Played for fun after this with no sideboard, and absouelty demolised it. Luck is a harsh mistress.
So, I dropped to play the side event:
STD R1 - Jeskai Control/Tempo 2-1
Game 1: Anihilated by Mantis Rider, Keranos and Prognostix Sphinx.
SIDEBOARD: Phyrexian Revoker, Stain the Mind, Deicide
Game 2: Landed an early Phrexian Revoker naming Prognostic Sphinx. One threat removed. Stain the Mind naming Mantis Rider. 2 threats removed. Whilst searching through his Library, i saw him sporting little burn, but packing a couple of Stormbreath Dragon!
He couldnt match my curve without threats.
Game 3: Similar to above- Stained the Sphinx, Deicide'd Keranos, killed 2 mantis riders (stain showed me he only packed 3 total) and I had an Abzan Charm in hand, followed by Elpeth and Bile Blight. I had stabilised on 1 life.
Satisfaction.
STD R2 - Abzan Aggro 2-0
Game 1: saw him playing Anafenza, Brimaz and Herald of Torment, potential to get nasty, but I played the control game. He did manage to land 2 Monstrous Fleecemanes but I had Elspeth on board to chump.
SIDEBOARD: sweepers, brimaz, Queen.
Game 2: THis was a real attrition Battle! He managed to reduce my Life total to 1!! He managed to gain life to a high of 43!! Then I landed Whip of Erebos, brought back my Rhinos, and My Hornet Queen, and my Indulgent Tormentors. Killed him with my total at 36 life remaining. Really fun match.
STD R3 - Temur tempo? 0-2
Game 1: Simple. He rode Stormbreath to victory. Managed to get him to 5, but no finishing Rhino, Temur Charm can counter spells. Remember that!
SIDEBOARD: didnt really know what to do here... Stain teh Mind and Revoker (monstrous stormy is scary)
Game 2: He had some really excellent trick little SB for me. Setassan Tactics and Temur Charm on Hornet Nest. H eplayed 2 of each this match and created an army of flying deathtouch wasps. Couldnt breath through. Again rode Stormbreath for the win behind his wall of insects.
Thoughts
- Anafenza was sided out nearly all the time. 4/4for 3cmc is nice, but rather specific second ability makes me want to drop her until reanimate/dredge is a thing again. Would consider Herald of Torment or Brimaz in her 3cmc slot. Not sure which.
- Thoughtsieze was good as a 2 of. Might up to 3 but definitely not 4 for me.
- Indulgent Tormentor was actually really good. He ate removal, of course, but they simply cannot leave him. He'll stop Stormbreath and Butcher, (not mantis rider until you buff him) is a decent scary flying threat and if youre on the Walkers route I'd recommend him as the inexorable card advantage helps, OR he reduces their threats OR brings them within Rhino range, OR forces their removal. Win-win-win-win in my book
- Ajani was pretty useful, but as mentioned above, he did whiff a couple of times. But that just meant I dug through my land floods. Paired with the additional Elspeth he was pretty good. His +1/+1 was revelant to take my creatures out of burn range and to tip the flying/trample damage to lethal...
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I really agree with your MD Bile Blight. I've been a proponent of this for a while now since I think it is really good in the standard meta right now. I would say it's almost certainly a 1-of in the main, if not your 2-of.
I also wish Anafenza was a better 3 drop. I don't really agree that the route to take is to increase threat density by adding 2 drops (albeit the cats are great and I love them, especially Deathdealer, another thing I agree with you about and another great meta call I think). If Anafenza was better I would totally go 4-of her with the caryatid. I just don't think cutting caryatid is that good. I know the aggro decks do it, but that is to play quicker threats. Your list looks basically like an aggro list, and the link you posted said Abzan Aggro is exactly the worst Abzan metagame call, so I can't really agree with your deck approach. Like I said earlier, I think the deck screams for a 3 drop that is more of a presence than courser and I wish Anafenza were a better option for that slot.
I also don't think it's great to drop Elspeth as she is an absolute house against any midrange decks and can stabilize in game 1 against aggro if you get that far. I may drop it to 1 instead of 2 in my list. If anything I think, like the article said, going over the top of Mardu with something like Garruk and maybe even going a control-y route with only kru, cary and rhino, a bunch of removal, along with PW, and maybe even a MB wipe, though that is a bit sketch. I'm really torn on these flex spots.
I feel like the unquestionable core of any Abzan deck is the following:
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Siege Rhino
2 Hero's Downfall
1 Utter End
3 Abzan Charm
3 Thoughtseize
That's a solid 19 cards that I don't think you can cut no matter what, which leaves 17 slots to mess around with. I do think it would be a bold move for any Abzan deck to cut Wingmate Roc, but Todd just did it to fill in a higher curve of PW. If you're going aggro, like yours, then you pretty much fill that up with small cats, a mix of three drops like anafenza and herald of torment, with some lists playing Roc.
The big thing about dropping Caryatid is that you can't go as big in your sideboard. Having a Nissa or Lili in the board, along with a single duneblast is really nice. I do think we have to drop a little bit of the planeswalker suite that Ari ran, but I don't know if I'd go as deep into aggro as you did. I would definitely keep caryatid as she is not really a dead draw. I also just like Deathdealer as a concept. Might even go a 3rd Roc. I also don't think it would be a terrible idea to go bigger than cats and put in Reaper of the Wild. It's a card I've been thinking about a lot recently, since every time I think of cutting a Planeswalker for a 2 drop I hurt a little inside. I don't know, I've been stressing super hard about all this and don't really know what to do.
Basically, I know that I want to keep Caryatid and stay Midrange, I also know that I want to shave off the top of the PW suite Ari had, but my problem is that I want to replace them with equally as good threats, like a 4 or 5 drop creature, instead of the smaller cats that everyone seems to be doing. I just think that's the best way to go. I'm not sure how good Reaper is, but I also don't see any other options. I think Deathdealer is the closest thing and he's been beastly every time I play him.
As you can see, I've been doing circles in my head. Any clarity would be sooooooo appreciated
Your removal is your weak spot, not the lack of threat density.
That catch here is that you make your aggro matches kind of funky in game 1. Sorin, Solemn Visitor really allows you to make up for this with things like Courser of Kruphix or Siege Rhino - which gives us some play in game 1 still.
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Wingmate Roc
4 Siege Rhino
Planeswalker
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Liliana Vess
1 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Instant
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Abzan Charm
1 Silence the Believers
2 Murderous Cut
1 Utter End
1 Read the Bones
4 Thoughtseize
1 End Hostilities
Land
4 Temple of Malady
2 Temple of Silence
2 Llanowar Wastes
2 Caves of Koilos
1 Mana Confluence
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
1 Utter End
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 End Hostilities
2 Despise
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Duneblast
2 Nissa, Worldwaker
1 Unravel the AEther
1 Back to Nature
3 Bile Blight
The biggest revelation I have really had since picking up this deck is with Abzan Charm. You want to be using this to draw as often as you possibly can. The deck has a funky way of drawing 0 or 1 Rhino in one game and 3-4 the next and drawing helps you really balance this out. Sylvan Caryatid is one of those cards where I feel people are stuck on the dream of a turn 3 Siege Rhino or Sorin, Solemn Visitor or that ramp into another walker a whole turn earlier. The fact of it is, it just isn't that powerful in these colors unless it is a match you are probably already favored in. I have removed Caryatid for additional support in stable removal with cards like Murderous Cut and Silence the Believers as I feel the extra slots here help you roll out your midrange plan more effectively while giving you tools to prevent disaster from striking. In the games I have played since removing Caryatid, I find that I am often times assuming the control route and just setting up for a big midrange play and focus on attrition more than anything. The singleton Brimaz, King of Oreskos isn't really needed in the main I do not think, but I am running 3 total in the 75 to make up for not running Drown in Sorrow. Pairing them with the 3rd Sorin, Solemn Visitor still gives me a lot of play against aggressive decks while allowing me to get aggressive against more controlling decks - perhaps my favorite thing here is that I get an additional threat that goes under Disdainful Stroke while still avoiding an over saturation of early threats.
Ari's list is solid, focusing more on the walkers gives you a better game against decks running removal. With so much 1 for 1 removal, the value you get from the walker suite is probably the best value you can get in Standard.
Ok, so I was starting to think I was the only one to be thinking this way. I think the next iteration of Abzan needs to get more controlly with some additional removal and I like silence the believers against Mardu, but I do think a bile blight would be better; that card is insane right now methinks. I'm also not sure I like running Brimaz over drown in sorrow because it's such a blowout, but hey, to each his own. I think those who were building the deck mentioned in a deck tech that they specifically chose a lot of their removal so that it would not be dead against control matchups, which I think are not going to be as prevalent as midrange and aggro, at least this weekend in the tournament I'm going to. I think switching this up to better accommodate the current meta is certainly the way to go. I haven't explored it too much, and I do like your list. I completely agree that Abzan Charm should be more of a card draw.
The way I went was to keep caryatid, add 2 mystics, add another land and go bigger on the threat scale. This is the list I brewed up this morning, but I haven't gotten to play it and probably won't until tonight. I like your list, though, because it removes dead draws in caryatid and is lower on the curve, but the only problem real I can see is the heavy color requirements in all three colors. The biggest inclusions for me are garruk, apex predator and Aegis Angel, which I think is a card right now if you're going big. I would love comments on it =). Either way, I think I'm leaning towards Planeswalkers; I just think they are too good in the meta right now.
2 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Siege Rhino
1 Aegis Angel
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
3 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
other spells: 13
1 Duneblast
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abzan Charm
2 Hero's Downfall
1 Bile Blight
1 Utter End
Edit: You know, I really just put up my list in case I stumbled upon something cool, and I do think it has some potential, but your list with liliana and the lower curve does seem like a slightly better choice for a tournament. The only change I would make to your list is replace the silence the believers with a bile blight, then move a murderous cut and a Brimaz to the board to put in two sylvan caryatid. I'm still worried about consistency and honestly caryatid does a fine job of slowing aggro down.
This is turning into a great discussion. Thanks for your thoughts. I'll try to defend my choices while considering your feedback.
I run two Bile Blight main because it does a lot of work; even if it's not at its best, it's often a useful combat trick that turns a bad block into an even trade (our BB for their monster, Courser lives, for example). I'll happily side it out G2 in certain matchups, but I think it's an important inclusion vs faster decks.
Anafenza is a 4/4 for 3 with relevant abilities. Seems pretty good to me, especially if followed up with Sorin next turn, and/or if the opponent runs Whip. Not every creature has to be able to trade evenly with a 4/5.
More important, though, is this discussion of Caryatids, threat density, and two-drops. If you want to keep the ramp strategy, then by all means, do so. I have friends that do well running 4 Courser, 4 Caryatids, then straight into 8-10 4-drop creatures (Siege Rhino, Polukranos, and Reaper) plus some number of Sorin and Roc; but that comes at the expense of removal and other Planeswalkers. So they take a very agressive "Monsters" type of strategy, and can only spot-remove one or two of the opponents' threats.
I like my build because it can usually drop a significant threat at every point on the curve, but also runs a LOT of spot removal, so I can keep opposing threats off the board while mine continue to push in. I think Yurchick (in the above-linked article) may be right about an all-in Abzan aggro strategy, but that's not my deck. He runs twice as many 2-drops (including Heir to the Wilds, which I don't imagine worked well) and several less spot-removal, plus no Coursers or Rocs. He's taken the idea too far.
My point is that Abzan has a TON of excellent tools at its disposal, and I think a well-balanced build will match up fairly well vs the entire field. In a limited card pool, we already have a glut of powerful options at 4 mana, but it takes work to get to 4, and I don't think we should hurry to get there if we can play more productive spells along the way. (I almost feel like I'm talking about the Dark Side: "quicker, more seductive" lol). If I were to add a 4-drop creature, it would certainly be a couple of Reapers, but the numbers have to make sense, and I don't want to get top-heavy.
I simply got tired of top-decking Caryatids in the late-game when I want removal or a threat, or six-or seven-drops that I could "almost cast." We don't NEED to be there to win! And if I don't run Caryatid, I can't run too many cards costing 4 or more.
My favorite thing about Abzan is the ability to shift roles all along the spectrum from aggro to control. Somewhere in there is a great build that pumps out threats vs slow decks, but can handle the rush of fast aggro decks AND the sizable monsters and PW's like Butcher and Sarkhan. I envision the SB as having a transformative aspect, to enable that spectrum shift.
I hope you keep working with the Caryatid build and share your results. I'll do the same; probably some observations if not feedback by the weekend.
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Siege Rhino
2 Wingmate Roc
3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
1 Liliana Vess
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
4 Abzan Charm
3 Hero's Downfall
1 Murderous Cut
1 Bile Blight
1 Utter End
1 End Hostilities
1 Read the Bones
4 Drown in Sorrow
2 Bile Blight
1 Hero's Downfall
1 End Hostilities
1 Duneblast
1 Utter End
1 Naturalize
1 Unravel the Æther
2 Nissa, Worldwaker
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
For some reason, I'm too much of a coward to just cut the caryatid's completely, but if many of the classic lists run 2 Mystics "just to make sure you get to your mana", then I think using the same justification for only 2 Caryatids is valid.
I may ultimately be wrong about cutting removal for more PW, but I think the beef is necessary or you risk not actually executing your gameplan if they remove them. I really like the MD wipe and the various 1-of removal, and I think your explanation for them is right on. I go with the 4 Drowns in the SB because I've used them and it's such a blowout, I just want to get that feeling at the tourney I'm playing in. I'm shaky on the Whip and Anafenza in the SB, but Whip I think can be really good against grindy matchups and the random Anafenza I think is there in case I go against a Sidisi deck, and she's not that bad against Jeskai and other creature-based blue that would run delve. I would even bring her in against control matchups as another random body.
Edit: I don't think Whip will work with the low creature count. I'm always 99% tempted to throw a garruk, apex predator because I want him to be a thing. I will probably end up just playing another naturalize or and unravel the aether to shore up against Ascendancy, Whip, and Vault decks.
I want to focus on this, because there's a really interesting idea here. Could we build a sort of mid-range deck with sideboard capable of transforming the deck into either an aggro deck or a control deck? I'm thinking, if we devote 4 cards in the sideboard for a strong 1-drop and 4 cards for a strong 2-drop, swap out caryatids and some other slow stuff like wingmate roc or elspeth... then for the control side, go with liliana, more removal, perhaps despise, and aim to win with elspeth ultimate.
I dunno, just an idea to go with whatever variant on this deck is strongest against each matchup, plus possibly nerfing a lot of what the opponent sideboards in.
This is the approach I have been taking with the list I just posted. I will side out removal and go in on Brimaz and Courser to chip away with Rhino triggers to keep constant pressure and then go big when there is a window for it.
Alternatively, against creature based decks I go heavy on the control side of things and focus on removal and heavy hitters to stabilize or swing the game.
Why no love for High Sentinels of Arashin?
Now, don't get me wrong, the Reaper's pretty strong, but the Sentinels can get pretty big too.
Thoughts?
Clearly Siege Rhino is better.
Second-best 4-mana creature: Reaper of the Wilds because it protects itself, kills anything it engages, and gives Scry.
Third-best is probably Polukranos because it's 5/5 and can act as spot removal.
Your High Sentinels are great to draft, but they don't stand well on their own like these others do; they NEED other creatures to stay in play to get the most out of them. Beyond that it's a huge mana investment to get that ability to function.
Take at look at Kamahl's list (above) for example -- not picking on you man, just a readily-accessible example. I think the overall changes are moving in a great direction, but even so, we have 16 creatures and PW's (besides Ajani himself) that you might find with the second [+1] ability. Assuming typical draws so far (i.e. the creature to non-creature ratio of the deck is the same as 16/60), you've got about a 72% chance of finding a target on each activation.
So I have to ask: why Ajani? Clearly Scry and Courser make him better; is that the basis of the plan? If we have courser in play, do we usually let the top card dictate which Ajani [+1] to use? Because I'm definitely not interested in paying five mana for a PW that gives me a 28% chance of whiffing on an activation every turn, but he seems to be a popular inclusion as a 1- or 2-of.
The card is flexible and even with my list having 17 targets to find on a +1, in the mirror match this is going to go the distance. In any attrition based match, Ajani is king. His ability to start pumping dues also forces a clock in situations where you are not really so much about finding more threats as you are getting them into range of Siege Rhino triggers.
Also, in most cases he is still a 2 for 1 if they want to answer him... and they have to answer him. Multiple activation of any combination are going to put most matches away on their own.
That said, I cut it long ago. We aren't seeing UB control at events and certainly not in the later rounds. I also noticed that the more controlling (basically w/ Thoughtseize instead of Fleecemane Lion) builds don't have enough targets to warrant using his middle ability, which is the ability I'm most interested in. I don't think he's good against Mardu because our creatures don't live long enough to benefit from the 3 +1/+1 counters and again the middle ability misses a lot. He's also bad against fast red based aggro which is showing up in large numbers these days.
I use Brimaz, King of Oreskos in its place. I like Brimaz against Mardu because it helps stretch their removal out (something they're good at doing to us) and goes into combat well with Seeker of the Way and Goblin Rabblemaster. It's obviously good against those fast decks and also serves as a strong card against the UB control deck if it does show up as a significant creature that drops early and dodges Disdainful Stroke and Bile Blight. I've even liked Brimaz against the green ramp strategies. In these games, I usually want to be the controller and Brimaz provides good pressure that they have to defend with mana producers while I spend removal on their real creatures. BTW, if the mana producers are Sylvan Caryatid, Elvish Mystic and Rattleclaw Mystic, they can't even profitably go into combat with the cat token.
The only thing I find unattractive about Brimaz is the double white but I've honestly rarely had a problem casting it.
UBRGrixis Kiki Control
BGUSultai Shadow
GWRBushwhacker Zoo
EDH:
BGU Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose
GWU Roon of the Hidden Realm
I think you're underestimating how good the other +1 is. It's crazy good. Sorin t4 into Ajani to make a 5/5 flier is beastly.
Plus, his other +1 ensures it replaces itself 3 out of 4 times, that's pretty good, especially if you're getting a threat. I used to think it wasn't that good, but I have been relieved every time I draw it.
You haven't tried Nissa? She's a beast. Also Liliana
Brimaz's call has been strong. He seems good in a lot of situations. If I wasn't going for a more PW controlly build, I would definitely add him. I don't think he is strong enough an answer to any deck to be a SB option, but I think he is definitely a strong MB option in the place of others. I definitely like him in a more creature-oriented Midrange build since he isn't really aggro and you really want that big butt and vigilance in the Midrange game. I honestly think he is super strong and probably would go with him if I as going the creature build.
First, lets evaluate why we run Erase. It's primarily for Jeskai Combo to remove the ascendancy part of the combo, but also has application against gods. It doesn't have a whole lot of other great uses. Being a 1 mana instant makes it very easy to hold up mana to use anytime however, and allows us to advance our board while keeping insurance against jeskai comboing off, which is why it is so popular.
Glare is slightly more expensive at 1W and is sorcery speed. The upside is that it also has further applications in the mirror match to remove opposing rhinos, rocs, elspeth, sorin, and actually just about every good threat. It can still remove ascendancy, but not if they play it on their turn and combo immediately. It also doesnt deal with non-white gods or enchantments, such as keranos who does see some play.
Unravel is also more expensive than erase at 1G, but is importantly an instant. It can deal with ascendancy even if they drop it on their turn. It also deals with any god or other enchantment, could even hit a courser if need be. The artifact removal application on unravel has some usefulness against Perilous Vault from U/B control, but other than that i cant think of other relevant artifacts. If control was heavy in the meta i would say unravel would be worth it.
So to review, im thinking Glare is going to be better in Abzan-heavy metas, Unravel in control-heavy metas, and Erase in metas with a lot of Jeskai Combo.
I'd like to know what everyone is using in their SB for this slot and if they have thought about the alternatives. Also, if i missed anything in my evaluation, feel free to add some input.
Also, went 3-1 tonight at my FNM. Came pretty close to 4-0.
Nothing overly exciting to report about it, that pertains to the deck.
Patrick Chapin has been talking about Read the Bones and since I already know that I would almost always rather be using Abzan Charm to draw, I think it is fitting to examine how important digging through your deck is if you are on the midrange walker style of Abzan. In a perfect world, I would use Charm to draw every time - but it isn't a perfect world. I think something like Read the Bones is going to be a big piece of the puzzle when trying to work out how to solve the Monsters match and Mardu match rather than just trying to target their hand with disruption only to top deck one of these spells later. Duneblast and End Hostilities do a good job of letting us assume the control deck in these matches at times (Mardu is probably the exception).
Thoughtseize is good, but I am wondering if maybe we have it all wrong and the card really is just not how you want to be tackling these matches. They are very top deck dependent matches and they play this really weird durdle dancing game after board.
Thoughts?
I love to have Thoughtseize in the main no matter the opponent. I'll usually play one with removal backup before they untap for a 4-mana play (or earlier if it's an aggro matchup) to disrupt the critical point in their tempo, whatever that may be.
It is probably my most sided-out card, though. It definitely stays in vs control and the Abzan mirror, but comes out vs Jeskai, Rabble, and Mardu as I switch to a removal-heavy build with Drown in Sorrow. I'll probably keep it in vs G and G/R/x Monsters, but I'm not sure yet.
As far as Read the Bones, I've always loved it (and Sign in Blood), but I feel we already gain so much inherent card advantage that it's not worth the card slot, mana or tempo investment. If I wanted to draw more often, I'd bring in more removal to relieve the pressure on Abzan Charm so that I can draw at instant speed instead of my main phase. Also, between Courser, Sorin, Roc, and sometimes Bile Blight, Brimaz, Whip, Lili, Drown in Sorrow, End Hostilities, Elspeth (and the list goes on!), an enormous number of cards in this deck already offer at least a chance at card advantage. Again, we get so many two-for-ones that I don't think we need to specifically invest mana and tempo into that aspect of the game.
2x Elvish Mystic
4x Siege Rhino
4x Courser of Kruphix
2x Herald of Torment
4x Sylvan Caryatid
2x Wingmate Roc
Spells
2x Utter End
2x Thoughtseize
1x Bow of Nylea
3x Hero's Downfall
4x Abzan Charm
1x Drown in Sorrow
2x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2x Ajani, Mentor of Heros
1x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Lands
4x Sandsteppe Citadel
4x Temple of Malady
3x Temple of Silence
3x Forest
3x Windswept Heath
2x Mana Confluence
2x Caves of Koilos
1x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Bile Blight
2x Anafenza, the Foremost
1x Whip of Erebos
1x Drown in Sorrow
1x Last Breath
1x Back to Nature
1x Duneblast
1x Murderous Cut
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Silence the Belivers
1x Hero's Downfall
1x End Hostilities
Some info about the matches
Match 1 vs Abzan Mirror 2-1 W
Against a good player who had switched from a real nasty Jund Midrange deck to this. He told me later the the deck was no where ready to be played as he had just put it together that day and needed to be fine tuned like nothing else.
Match 2 vs Abzan Control 2-1 W
This deck I belive was created by one of the top players in our state. It fetures Lilly and Res. Angel and a few other things.
In the end I won the match on a misplay on his part. He had attacked with his Roc + token and rhino while I was at 6 life, he was at 6 life after the roc trigger, I had a taped rhino and a untaped bestowed courser. I blocked he downfalled the coursr after blocks and I pain to gain 3 life with Bow. I go to 1 and he passes thinking that Herald will kill me. I untap gain 3 with bow go to attack he blocks with caryatid and forgets the bow gives deathtouch.
Match 3 vs Boros Agro 2-0 W
This is the one I feared most, as I have played against him before and he usally win out right. It contains Rabble and swift spear and +1/+1 couter raid guy, some burn and titans.
game 1 I actally stablalize with elspeth and and take over from there
game 2 he boards out most of his burn gets me down to 3 before I stableize. He lights and chains my courser and rhinos.
My Trades
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=459514
Banishing Light, Chained to the Rocks, Suspension Field, Singing Bell Strike (I use this in my U/R Ensoul Artifact deck), Whip of Erebos, Boon Satyr, Herald of Torment
..and that's just off the top of my head..
Makes me want to run 4x enchant removal.
3 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Anafenza, the Foremost
4 Siege Rhino
2 Indulgent Tormentor
2 Wingmate Roc
Spells (19)
2 Thoughtsieze
2 Bile Blight
4 Hero’s Downfall
4 Abzan Charm
2 Utter End
1 Whip of Erebos
2 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Elspeth, Sun’s Champion
2 Forest
2 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
3 Sandsteppe Citadel
3 Caves of Koilos
3 Temple of Malady
2 Llanowar Wastes
2 Mana Confluence
1 Temple of Silence
1 Blossoming Sands
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Drown in Sorrow
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Stain the Mind
2 Deicide
1 End Hostilities
1 Duneblast
1 Silence the Believers
1 Elspeth, Sun’s Champion
1 Hornet Queen
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
Ok guys, took this to a GPT event and started strong, but ending up 1-1-2 in main event then 2-1 in the standard side event. Overall thoughts - extremely strong, my losses were due to land flood and lack of threats being drawn/unanswerable opponents. I'll summarise below. Its better than the results imply...
GPT R1 - Mardu... 2-1
Game 1: Lost to a Hordeling Outburstfollowed by Sarkhan and burn. I drew all the lands. like 10.
SIDEBOARD: Drown in sorrow (expecting more tokens), end hostilities, brimaz
Game 2: 3 back to back Rhinos from me with incidental lifegain smashed it. Im sure Rhinos are pack animals... See 3/4 or none.
Game 3: Ramped into Walkers and developed huge board presence he couldnt deal with.
GPT R2 - Mardu (more aggro) 1-1-1 (time)
Game 1: Got destroyed. Hordeling Outburst, Butcher of the Horde, Butcher of the Horde. Over by turn 6. Didnt get the removal I needed and butcher is big 5 power trickable flier. Scary.
SIDEBOARD: Drown in Sorrow, Revoker, Hornet Queen
Game 2: Managed to land a Whip of Erebos that comboed nicely with Rhino and the Queen Bee and went from there.
Game 3: Ran out of time, though it was in my favour. Landed a Rhino which got Chained to the Rocks and I had Abzan Charm and Downfall backup for Butcher.
GPT R3 - Jesaki Burn 0-2
Game 1: Traded tempo plays, took out an early Mantis Rider with Bile Blight. He landed Sarkhan, then Mantis Rider, then burnet me to cinders.
SIDEBOARD: Brimaz, Hornet Queen, Revoker, Stain the Mind
Game 2: I drew no threats at all. He drew 4 land and buuuuurn.
GPT R4 - Gb Devotion/Constellation 0-2
Game 1: I dealt zero damage whilst he Blossomed into monsters. I think this is one of the hardest game 1's we have as we cannot overrun them.
SIDEBOARD: Boardwipes, additional Elspeth, 2x Drown in Sorrow, Hornet Queen
Game 2: THoughtsiezed early, saw from that (and courser) he had 2x Arbor Colossus, Genesis Hydra, Nykthos, Nylea, Polukranos and land. Was not going to be a fun day. I couldnt land any blockers to compare and again got overrun before any wipes or elspeth turned up.
Played for fun after this with no sideboard, and absouelty demolised it. Luck is a harsh mistress.
So, I dropped to play the side event:
STD R1 - Jeskai Control/Tempo 2-1
Game 1: Anihilated by Mantis Rider, Keranos and Prognostix Sphinx.
SIDEBOARD: Phyrexian Revoker, Stain the Mind, Deicide
Game 2: Landed an early Phrexian Revoker naming Prognostic Sphinx. One threat removed. Stain the Mind naming Mantis Rider. 2 threats removed. Whilst searching through his Library, i saw him sporting little burn, but packing a couple of Stormbreath Dragon!
He couldnt match my curve without threats.
Game 3: Similar to above- Stained the Sphinx, Deicide'd Keranos, killed 2 mantis riders (stain showed me he only packed 3 total) and I had an Abzan Charm in hand, followed by Elpeth and Bile Blight. I had stabilised on 1 life.
Satisfaction.
STD R2 - Abzan Aggro 2-0
Game 1: saw him playing Anafenza, Brimaz and Herald of Torment, potential to get nasty, but I played the control game. He did manage to land 2 Monstrous Fleecemanes but I had Elspeth on board to chump.
SIDEBOARD: sweepers, brimaz, Queen.
Game 2: THis was a real attrition Battle! He managed to reduce my Life total to 1!! He managed to gain life to a high of 43!! Then I landed Whip of Erebos, brought back my Rhinos, and My Hornet Queen, and my Indulgent Tormentors. Killed him with my total at 36 life remaining. Really fun match.
STD R3 - Temur tempo? 0-2
Game 1: Simple. He rode Stormbreath to victory. Managed to get him to 5, but no finishing Rhino, Temur Charm can counter spells. Remember that!
SIDEBOARD: didnt really know what to do here... Stain teh Mind and Revoker (monstrous stormy is scary)
Game 2: He had some really excellent trick little SB for me. Setassan Tactics and Temur Charm on Hornet Nest. H eplayed 2 of each this match and created an army of flying deathtouch wasps. Couldnt breath through. Again rode Stormbreath for the win behind his wall of insects.
Thoughts
- Anafenza was sided out nearly all the time. 4/4for 3cmc is nice, but rather specific second ability makes me want to drop her until reanimate/dredge is a thing again. Would consider Herald of Torment or Brimaz in her 3cmc slot. Not sure which.
- Thoughtsieze was good as a 2 of. Might up to 3 but definitely not 4 for me.
- Indulgent Tormentor was actually really good. He ate removal, of course, but they simply cannot leave him. He'll stop Stormbreath and Butcher, (not mantis rider until you buff him) is a decent scary flying threat and if youre on the Walkers route I'd recommend him as the inexorable card advantage helps, OR he reduces their threats OR brings them within Rhino range, OR forces their removal. Win-win-win-win in my book
- Ajani was pretty useful, but as mentioned above, he did whiff a couple of times. But that just meant I dug through my land floods. Paired with the additional Elspeth he was pretty good. His +1/+1 was revelant to take my creatures out of burn range and to tip the flying/trample damage to lethal...