This question keeps coming up on the board but I haven't seen any truly definitive answers. I personally haven't had the chance to test Shaman, but I am often disappointed by Phoenix. I know some people have tested Shaman, what kind of results is he putting up? Where is he good? Where is he bad?
This is something a lot of people want to know about, if you have some results please let us know.
In my experience none of them should be in RW...eveytime i've used the Phoenix i was dissapointed with it...rather use Outpost Siege and Chandra as my 4th drops of choice...there's much more value on them than Shaman or Pheonix.
The metagame changed this weekend with the addition of yet another deck that goes wide in the Gr Devotion list that runs Whisperwood Elemental, Arbor Colossus, Polukranos, World Eater in a Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx shell splashing Red for Crater's Claws and some other goodies to close the game out quickly. How does RW fare against this new build, especially since I have seen many lists moving away from Valorous Stance main deck in favor of Wild Slash.
Does the number of wide builds and devotion shells mean that End Hostilities needs to be part of the equation again, or do we just try to race with flyers? Brimaz doesn't hold the ground well against 5/5s....
The metagame changed this weekend with the addition of yet another deck that goes wide in the Gr Devotion list that runs Whisperwood Elemental, Arbor Colossus, Polukranos, World Eater in a Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx shell splashing Red for Crater's Claws and some other goodies to close the game out quickly. How does RW fare against this new build, especially since I have seen many lists moving away from Valorous Stance main deck in favor of Wild Slash.
Does the number of wide builds and devotion shells mean that End Hostilities needs to be part of the equation again, or do we just try to race with flyers? Brimaz doesn't hold the ground well against 5/5s....
End hostilities should always be in the sideboard anyways because it's good against a lot of deck types. If G/x is dominating your meta then you need a full suit of chained to the rocks and probably up to 2, even 3 valorous stance and switch from Brimaz to Phoenix. Playing a singleton Elspeth is probably not a bad idea either.
The metagame changed this weekend with the addition of yet another deck that goes wide in the Gr Devotion list that runs Whisperwood Elemental, Arbor Colossus, Polukranos, World Eater in a Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx shell splashing Red for Crater's Claws and some other goodies to close the game out quickly. How does RW fare against this new build, especially since I have seen many lists moving away from Valorous Stance main deck in favor of Wild Slash.
Does the number of wide builds and devotion shells mean that End Hostilities needs to be part of the equation again, or do we just try to race with flyers? Brimaz doesn't hold the ground well against 5/5s....
End hostilities should always be in the sideboard anyways because it's good against a lot of deck types. If G/x is dominating your meta then you need a full suit of chained to the rocks and probably up to 2, even 3 valorous stance and switch from Brimaz to Phoenix. Playing a singleton Elspeth is probably not a bad idea either.
I'm going to test 1 Brimaz and 2 Ashcloud on main board..and a second brimaz on side..also i'm running 2 stances main and end hostilities on board...this is what i'm going to run this week.
Nice. I'm always worried that they'll have multiple enchantments out and they'll get rid of one I don't want them to. But I guess any enchantment they have is something I don't want on the field.
Nice. I'm always worried that they'll have multiple enchantments out and they'll get rid of one I don't want them to. But I guess any enchantment they have is something I don't want on the field.
yeap...i usually bring them in plus Erase against mirror and Constellation decks..
I find myself in long matches holding dead cards vs control, or losing to Abzan aggro with them at one life while I have an outpost on the field and 20 life. It may just be my luck but this deck h-a-t-e-s me. I mulligan for mana that casts cards in my hand basically. Against control I mulligan for threats before turn three. I find myself mulliganing to five most games and losing with dead cards in hand or just a lot of lands. Outpost Siege is great, but I feel like the comeback factor here is dependent on drawing only Stormbreath in the right circumstances.
Here is another good one, I was on the play against UB control, mulliganed to five looking for seeker and didn't get it. Both game one and two I was milled to death.
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The red mage lives by the variance and dies by the variance. May the variance be with you, always.
I had terrible draws and terrible opening hands last FNM. Not to mention, all 5 rounds I lost the dice roll and had to start on the draw. This deck does not want to start on the draw.... ended up barely pulling 2-3, and one match was almost a gimme, since I was at the bottom of the food chain that round. Definitely left a bad taste in my mouth. This is what I was running:
I had terrible draws and terrible opening hands last FNM. Not to mention, all 5 rounds I lost the dice roll and had to start on the draw. This deck does not want to start on the draw.... ended up barely pulling 2-3, and one match was almost a gimme, since I was at the bottom of the food chain that round. Definitely left a bad taste in my mouth. This is what I was running:
It's just me i think..but i'm wanting more and more to start on the draw...that extra card in hand..everytime made the difference to me..and start on the draw helped my mulligan decisions....this past weekend i won FRF Gameday and that awesome playmat...i've lost the dice roll on 7 rounds...and won all of those matchs....i'm getting confident that this deck is way better on the draw than on the play...but...it must be build correctly...
It's just me i think..but i'm wanting more and more to start on the draw...that extra card in hand..everytime made the difference to me..and start on the draw helped my mulligan decisions....this past weekend i won FRF Gameday and that awesome playmat...i've lost the dice roll on 7 rounds...and won all of those matchs....i'm getting confident that this deck is way better on the draw than on the play...but...it must be build correctly...
There were games I definitely could have won if I wasn't stuck on things like Plains, Battlefield Forge, Battlefield Forge for 5 turns+ in the mirror, after 1 mull already. I also had at least 1 mull every round, and at least two mulls were to 5. The problem with being on the draw was one of my matchups was mono red burn and did 12 damage by turn 3, including landing back to back Eidolon of the Great Revel and using main deck Searing Blood on every one of my threats. The other knockout mulligan/draw match was destroyed by a Jund ramp deck that had boards full of Hornet Queen tokens by turn 3 or 4 pretty regularly. Not to mention Doomwake Giant, Whip of Erebos, and an easy finisher Crater's Claws. I just couldn't draw answers, even after sideboard. Just a bad day I guess.
So, taking off from Mark Nestico's article on SCG today, what would you build for the metagame of this week, rather than the metagame of last week? How does the deck evolve?
So far, I have seen the metagame change to:
1. More Gr Devotion.
2. Possibly some more copies of UB Control.
3. More Jeskai Aggro over Jeskai Tokens.
In other words, I expect more Wild Slash, 3 toughness creatures, and sweepers.
What changes would you make to the list in anticipation of these differences in the metagame?
The core:
4 Seeker of the Way
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Hordeling Outburst
4 Chained the Rocks
4 Stoke the Flames
(the only thing I would ever want to change about this is maybe -1 Stormbreath Dragon)
The metagame changes:
4 Lightning Strike (more 3 toughness creatures)
2 Wild Slash (to keep down the mirror mostly, probably some number of Magma Spray post-board)
2 Valorous Stance (to keep down the Gr Devotion Polukranos Game 1, plus respond to Crux of Fates)
2 Ashcloud Phoenix (tough to sweep, flies over Gr, solid blocker)
3 Outpost Siege (I could see playing 2 Siege, but I like 3, and dropping a land)
23 land
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Battlefield Forge
10 Mountain
5 Plains (no need for double white early due to no Brimaz)
Sideboard Changes
2 Elspeth (go big in the mirror)
3 Mastery of the Unseen (along with Outpost Siege, beats UB Control)
1 Abzan Advantage
1 Erase
3 End Hostilities (need to keep down the Devotion lists)
3 Arc Lightning (for the inevitable tokens)
1 Magma Spray (this is a better mirror breaker due to Ashcloud Phoenix)
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos (mirror breaker)
did anyone of you think of Heliod's Pilgrim? as a 2-off? i think its pretty awesome to fetch chained to the rocks he did really well in my tests with him.
In my opinion there's already too many good cards fighting for slots as it is. A 3 mana 1/2 seems really hard to justify, because all it will ever do is find your Chained,and cost 4 mana to find/cast it. I'd rather just run the 3-4 Chained and use the other slot for something more useful. At 3cmc, there are tons of good choices.
In my opinion there's already too many good cards fighting for slots as it is. A 3 mana 1/2 seems really hard to justify, because all it will ever do is find your Chained,and cost 4 mana to find/cast it. I'd rather just run the 3-4 Chained and use the other slot for something more useful. At 3cmc, there are tons of good choices.
I'd run something like Hammer of Purphoros or Spear of Heliod or Godsend if I had a spot for another 3 drop. And that's assuming it's not already full of Brimaz, Rabblemaster, Mentor, and Outburst, like already mentioned. If I really wanted to go out of the box, I'd do Gift of Immortality.
I really don't think that this archetype needs another three drop.
We have plenty of action on that slot as: Rabble, Hordeling, Brimaz and even Monastery Mentor.
After testing with Ashcloud Pheonix..i've started to change my mind about her..It's really that strong..especially against control (very hard to kill) and devotion (flyes over their army, until they cast the Queen) archetypes..
Also i've decided to cut Brimaz for 1 copy only, just becasue devotion will rise in popularity. I haven't regreat about it yet.
Yeah, I've thought about dropping Brimaz entirely for Ashcloud Phoenix. Flying, hard to kill, being able to morph, makes it a little bit better for the meta right now, in my opinion.
Yeah, I've thought about dropping Brimaz entirely for Ashcloud Phoenix. Flying, hard to kill, being able to morph, makes it a little bit better for the meta right now, in my opinion.
Yeap...that's a point...also with Brimaz and his double white out of the equation we got a less painfull start...
I do think that 3+ Ashclouds is a mistake...2 is the right number of her...i'm thinking about adding a third Outpost Siege or a single Chandra...not sure which one yet..suggestions?
Soulfire has been amazing so far for me...mid to late game she's a advantage engine...buying back a burn(stoke almost everytime) and generating some life...i can't see this deck without her...at least..at the moment...
One Brimaz is fine though..tested with sucess...
Perhaps i'm gonna take 1 Wild Slash out in order to add another Valorous...that card is great indeed.
Fairly stock. Couple of things:
- I still like Ashcloud because it flies over these dumb green decks and Doomwake is at an all time low.
- 1-1 split on Chandra and Siege because I know Siege is better but I love Chandra too much and am to petty too let her go. Plus, nobody expects her anymore.
- Land in SB is for control matchups where I bring in Siege and both Sarkhans.
- Chained to the Rocks in the best removal in the format.
- Stormbreath is the best creature in the format.
- 3 Outburst seems right. I haven't ever wanted a 4th.
- Soul Fire is just seeker #5 albeit way worse. Also a random late game engine I guess.
- I think 0 Stance MD is correct but I could be super wrong on that. It's not really dead anywhere but there are only a few matchups where you REALLY want the card.
In my experience none of them should be in RW...eveytime i've used the Phoenix i was dissapointed with it...rather use Outpost Siege and Chandra as my 4th drops of choice...there's much more value on them than Shaman or Pheonix.
UR Twin - RIP
Does the number of wide builds and devotion shells mean that End Hostilities needs to be part of the equation again, or do we just try to race with flyers? Brimaz doesn't hold the ground well against 5/5s....
I'm going to test 1 Brimaz and 2 Ashcloud on main board..and a second brimaz on side..also i'm running 2 stances main and end hostilities on board...this is what i'm going to run this week.
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Battlefield Forge
10 Mountain
5 Plains
1 Evolving Wilds
Creatures
3 Seeker of the Way
2 Soulfire Grand Master
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2 Ashcloud Phoenix
4 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Hordeling Outburst
4 Chained to the Rocks
4 Stoke the Flames
2 Valorous Stance
3 Lightning Strike
1 Wild Slash
2 Outpost Siege
2 Wild Slash
2 Glare of Heresy
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
2 Abzan Advantage
1 Erase
1 Arc Lightning
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2 End Hostilities
UR Twin - RIP
Awesome..always got value from it.
UR Twin - RIP
Nice. I'm always worried that they'll have multiple enchantments out and they'll get rid of one I don't want them to. But I guess any enchantment they have is something I don't want on the field.
yeap...i usually bring them in plus Erase against mirror and Constellation decks..
UR Twin - RIP
Here is another good one, I was on the play against UB control, mulliganed to five looking for seeker and didn't get it. Both game one and two I was milled to death.
4x Battlefield Forge
1x Evolving Wilds
1x Mana Confluence
9x Mountain
4x Plains
4x Temple of Triumph
1x Wind-Scarred Crag
Enchantment (6)
3x Chained to the Rocks
3x Outpost Siege
3x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4x Goblin Rabblemaster
4x Seeker of the Way
3x Stormbreath Dragon
Instant (11)
4x Lightning Strike
4x Stoke the Flames
3x Wild Slash
Sorcery (4)
4x Hordeling Outburst
Planeswalker (1)
1x Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
2x Anger of the Gods
2x Arc Lightning
1x Chained to the Rocks
2x Chandra, Pyromaster
2x Glare of Heresy
3x Hushwing Gryff
3x Valorous Stance
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
It's just me i think..but i'm wanting more and more to start on the draw...that extra card in hand..everytime made the difference to me..and start on the draw helped my mulligan decisions....this past weekend i won FRF Gameday and that awesome playmat...i've lost the dice roll on 7 rounds...and won all of those matchs....i'm getting confident that this deck is way better on the draw than on the play...but...it must be build correctly...
UR Twin - RIP
There were games I definitely could have won if I wasn't stuck on things like Plains, Battlefield Forge, Battlefield Forge for 5 turns+ in the mirror, after 1 mull already. I also had at least 1 mull every round, and at least two mulls were to 5. The problem with being on the draw was one of my matchups was mono red burn and did 12 damage by turn 3, including landing back to back Eidolon of the Great Revel and using main deck Searing Blood on every one of my threats. The other knockout mulligan/draw match was destroyed by a Jund ramp deck that had boards full of Hornet Queen tokens by turn 3 or 4 pretty regularly. Not to mention Doomwake Giant, Whip of Erebos, and an easy finisher Crater's Claws. I just couldn't draw answers, even after sideboard. Just a bad day I guess.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
So far, I have seen the metagame change to:
1. More Gr Devotion.
2. Possibly some more copies of UB Control.
3. More Jeskai Aggro over Jeskai Tokens.
In other words, I expect more Wild Slash, 3 toughness creatures, and sweepers.
What changes would you make to the list in anticipation of these differences in the metagame?
The core:
4 Seeker of the Way
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Hordeling Outburst
4 Chained the Rocks
4 Stoke the Flames
(the only thing I would ever want to change about this is maybe -1 Stormbreath Dragon)
The metagame changes:
4 Lightning Strike (more 3 toughness creatures)
2 Wild Slash (to keep down the mirror mostly, probably some number of Magma Spray post-board)
2 Valorous Stance (to keep down the Gr Devotion Polukranos Game 1, plus respond to Crux of Fates)
2 Ashcloud Phoenix (tough to sweep, flies over Gr, solid blocker)
3 Outpost Siege (I could see playing 2 Siege, but I like 3, and dropping a land)
23 land
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Battlefield Forge
10 Mountain
5 Plains (no need for double white early due to no Brimaz)
Sideboard Changes
2 Elspeth (go big in the mirror)
3 Mastery of the Unseen (along with Outpost Siege, beats UB Control)
1 Abzan Advantage
1 Erase
3 End Hostilities (need to keep down the Devotion lists)
3 Arc Lightning (for the inevitable tokens)
1 Magma Spray (this is a better mirror breaker due to Ashcloud Phoenix)
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos (mirror breaker)
Thoughts?
otherwise i agree with you.
did anyone of you think of Heliod's Pilgrim? as a 2-off? i think its pretty awesome to fetch chained to the rocks he did really well in my tests with him.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
which are those choices? besides brimaz.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
We have plenty of action on that slot as: Rabble, Hordeling, Brimaz and even Monastery Mentor.
After testing with Ashcloud Pheonix..i've started to change my mind about her..It's really that strong..especially against control (very hard to kill) and devotion (flyes over their army, until they cast the Queen) archetypes..
Also i've decided to cut Brimaz for 1 copy only, just becasue devotion will rise in popularity. I haven't regreat about it yet.
UR Twin - RIP
Yeap...that's a point...also with Brimaz and his double white out of the equation we got a less painfull start...
I do think that 3+ Ashclouds is a mistake...2 is the right number of her...i'm thinking about adding a third Outpost Siege or a single Chandra...not sure which one yet..suggestions?
Updated list:
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Battlefield Forge
1 Evolving Wilds
5 Plains
10 Mountain
Creatures
3 Seeker of the Way
2 Soulfire Grand Master
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Ashcloud Phoenix
4 Hordeling Outburst
4 Chained to the Rocks
4 Stoke the Flames
3 Lightning Strike
2 Outpost Siege
1 Valorous Stance
2 Wild Slash
1 Valorous Stance
1 Wild Slash
2 Glare of Heresy
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
2 End Hostilities
1 Abzan Advantage
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Wind-Scarred Crag
1 Erase
1 Arc Lightning
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
UR Twin - RIP
Valorous Stance has been amazeballs for me and I think 2 is the perfect number.
Seeker seems good at 3. I personally think 4 is too many.
A one-of Brimaz seems fine.
So, if you take out the Grand Masters, you could go up one more Valorous Stance and maybe bring in your extra Chandra.
Soulfire has been amazing so far for me...mid to late game she's a advantage engine...buying back a burn(stoke almost everytime) and generating some life...i can't see this deck without her...at least..at the moment...
One Brimaz is fine though..tested with sucess...
Perhaps i'm gonna take 1 Wild Slash out in order to add another Valorous...that card is great indeed.
Going to tests some changes later today..
UR Twin - RIP
4x Goblin Rabblemaster
4x Seeker of the Way
4x Stormbreath Dragon
2x Ashcloud Pheonix
2x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1x Soul Fire Grandmaster
Spells(19)
4x Chained to the Rocks
4x Lightning Strike
4x Stoke the Flames
3x Hordeling Outburst
2x Wild Slash
1x Chandra, Pyromaster
1x Outpost Siege
10x Mountain
5x Plains
4x Battlefield Forge
4x Temple of Triumph
1x Evolving Wilds
3x Glare of Heresy
2x Arc Lightning
2x Hushwing Gryff
2x Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
2x Valorous Stance
1x Erase
1x Outpost Siege
1x Scouring Sands
1x Wind-Scarred Crag
Fairly stock. Couple of things:
- I still like Ashcloud because it flies over these dumb green decks and Doomwake is at an all time low.
- 1-1 split on Chandra and Siege because I know Siege is better but I love Chandra too much and am to petty too let her go. Plus, nobody expects her anymore.
- Land in SB is for control matchups where I bring in Siege and both Sarkhans.
- Chained to the Rocks in the best removal in the format.
- Stormbreath is the best creature in the format.
- 3 Outburst seems right. I haven't ever wanted a 4th.
- Soul Fire is just seeker #5 albeit way worse. Also a random late game engine I guess.
- I think 0 Stance MD is correct but I could be super wrong on that. It's not really dead anywhere but there are only a few matchups where you REALLY want the card.
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
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