I would probably pare it back to 4 SBD, 3 Sarkhan with 1-2 Nissa in the side. What sort of bombs did you have in mind, and is that list the proper configuration to run said bombs?
is that list the proper configuration to run said bombs?
I have no idea. That list needs more removal. By going bigger, you're conceding the early portions of the game to developing your mana, so you have to make sure that when Abzan goes long, you can as well.
Though, honestly, RUG is not well developed for the grindy game. If you're going to be playing those colors, play fast and low to the ground (a la Temur Tempo).
Genesis Hydra seems better in RG shell, perhaps a Devotion shell. Playing it for four and getting Ashcloud, Poluk, or Xenagos seems like what you'd want to be doing. Removal in RG Dev/Monsters seems like its Lighting Strike and Crater's Claws. Could you critique a RG Monsters, instead? If it helps, I want a deck that can cast dragons, hydras, and Sarkhans pretty easily. I thought the blue for Stubborn Denial would be excellent vs End Hostilities.
Is Anger of the Gods necessarily bad in these decks? I didn't want to copy Scheid's Monsters list, but he was packing three in his sideboard. Jund might also be a possibility. Deathdealer is attractive because I can regenerate after an End Hostilities and retain a bit of board presence. I am not sure on Rabblemaster, here. I think perhaps I want Lightning Strike, and that the Downfalls want to be Murderous Cuts.
Tapped Out, I've been playing and tweaking this deck since the second week of the format and I really like where my list is currently at. It's pretty close to yours actually. I'll try to explain my reasoning below.
I'm 100% sold on the maindeck at this point and will not be making any tweaks this time around. I've slowly increased the number of Elvish Mystics and Ashcloud Phoenixes while trimming down the spell count (and a Stormbreath Dragon). A lot of people have expressed interest in going down to 2 or 3 elves but I think thats a mistake. What they are feeling is the need to keep the 4+ power threat dense really high and I think the proper solution to that is to trim the spells down to the bare minimum.
The only slots I'm not sure about are the SB Temur Charm and the 4th Hunt the Hunter. Disdainful Stroke felt too narrow for a third copy when Mana Leak Charm is almost the same card but can counter cheaper things sometimes while having additional applications. The 4th Hunt the Hunter because you ALWAYS want to draw at least 1 vs g/x devotion and probably don't mind drawing 3. It's such a blowout.
Stormbreath Dragon is constantly over-performing and by now I wouldn't even consider playing Sarkhan.
I cut one Mana Confluence because drawing 2 of them is bad. Also having to play a confluence on turn 1 is bad. I've made one of the scrylands u/g and added an additional basic Mountain to compensate. The consensus seems to have landed on 6 taplands and I find myself agreeing with that.
5-6 taplands are where you want to be in these colors. And four of them must be Frotier Bivouac. I ran six last Friday and found myself doing fine.
I disagree about cutting a Mana Confluence. While hands that open on two of them suck, they are rare. One of the good things about this deck is that it mulligans just fine due to the fact that it's not a deck full of 1-of's and miscellaneous cards that don't affect the board, e.g. Dig Through Time.
Sarkhan vs. SBD...ah, the age-old debate. I like them both and for different reasons. Sarkhan is hard for them to remove but SBD is even harder. That said, SBD will eat a Hero's Downfall in your attack step while Sarkhan will at least get 4 in. And sometimes his -3 is actually just what the doctor ordered.
I really don't like either of them as haymakers, honestly. Crater's Claws does that better and more frequently. But we don't have a whole lot to choose from.
I'm really thinking of cutting Temur Charm entirely. Its modes are mostly useful, that's true, but I don't like it as much as I want to for the same reason Kibler gave: it doesn't help you when you're behind.
A couple things on the mana base for GRx Monsters.
Tap lands feel very bad. However, at least 4 are very necessary given the nature of our mana base. Depending on how aggressive you want your deck to be, I think the less the better. I've found 5 to be the sweet spot with a white splash. This also lets me run a full set of Elvish Mystic since there are fewer tap lands to take up my turn 1 play. As you play more taplands to compensate either a higher curve or worse mana base, the value of Elvish Mystic is greatly reduced. This was the case last year with Jund Monsters. Ketter's original list ran 5 tap lands (not counting shocks -- which are flexible). Later, as the deck spilled into Jund, there were times when the deck would run 7. There are varying values of running 7 scrylands. It makes Courser of Kruphix great, but it reduces the deck's aggressiveness. With CVM's Jund Monsters playing Goblin Rabblemaster update, CVM was back to the original 5 scry(tapped) lands in attempt to allow for his mana base to keep up with his deck's aggressiveness.
Your mana base restricts your aggressiveness. I like scry lands as they're powerful. However, they restrict the liklihood that I play Goblin Rabblemaster on turn 2 or 3. They also restrict the liklihood that you play your Savage Knuckleblade (w/ haste) earlier than turn 4. Taplands are less aggressive than painlands, fetchlands, and basics. Your creature package should be as fast as your mana base. Your 3 color, no-creature-greater-than-4cmc, should not be dallying with 7-8 tap lands. I think 5 is the max a lot of decks should be looking at, but I like jamming threats as fast as possible. If you're dallying in 7-8 tap lands, you should be playing some BOMBS! Like, "get out the way", 6 cmc "you lose" cards coming.
When building your mana base, you also have to take into account your mana dorks. Tap lands and 2 cmcm mana dorks are good friends. The play, "t1 tapland, t2 mana dork," is obvious and aggressive. However, taplands and Elvish Mystic are not friends. Of note, TappedOut's list only runs 3 Elvish Mystics while running 6 tapped lands. This makes sense since Elvish Mystic is really only powerful turn 1. It's ok turn 2 and gets (obviously) subsequently worse. If he were running 7-8 tapped lands, he might even want to run only 2 cmc mana dorks.
For aggressiveness, it helps when your 3 drops (and two drops) are not mana intensive. Goblin Rabblemaster is not mana intensive. Savage Knuckleblade is very mana intensive. You have to assume that you're getting your "money's" (aka life loss or feasible tempo loss) worth off of Savage Knuckleblade. I think Knuckleblade is very worth it turns 2 through 3. You'll have moments when it doesn't work out -- but I think Savage Knuckleblade is worth it for most Temur lists. I mean, both Rabblemaster and Knuckleblade sorta suck as the game goes on. However, Knuckleblade is certainly better than Rabblemaster post turn 5. However, keep in mind that given Knuckleblade's mana cost restrictions, it's apparent that Knuckleblade is typically going to be less aggressive. It's also worth mentioning Elvish Mystic's synergy with these guys. Mystic is the reason you can play t2 Rabblemaster or Knuckleblade. Rattleclaw Mystic (while cool) only facilitates a hasty t3 Knuckleblade.
However, your 4 drops are why you play your 2 cmc mana dork. There is no denying the power of a t3 Polukranos, World Eater. t2 mana also is more mana positive (in the fixing sense) than Elvish Mystic. Ashcloud Phoenix and Polukranos in the same deck can be a bit hopeful. But with 2 cmc mana dorks, playing t3 Phoenix or Polukranos is a piece of cake.
Here's what to take away from this.
1. Painful manabase = faster deck. Don't bother with pain lands if you're not trying to be fast. You should absolutely bother if you're playing aggressive 3 drops.
3. Your mana dorks and taplands work in cohesion. Don't run 8 tap lands and 4x Elvish Mystic. If you're running 8 tap lands, you should be running 6+ 2 cmc mana dorks, fewer 3cmc beaters, and more 4+cmc beaters.
The cards that really helped ease my mana concerns with colors were Boon Satyr and Fanatic of Xenagos. They make hands that you'd have to throw back, because of color concerns such as your only blue source being a Rattleclaw, keepable. Fanatic is really quite a force too. One of my Abzan opponents was so scared of it that he Thoughtseized it over Knuckleblade on turn 2 once.
Some folks like Rabblemaster here but I don't.
I didn't get restricted at all by having an awkward hand with taplands. There were zero times where I *had* to go T1 Mystic or die. More often it was T1 tapland into T2 Rattleclaw or Heir. And those starts are fine.
Anyway, for the most part, I agree with everything you said. Do you have a list of your own?
is that list the proper configuration to run said bombs?
I have no idea. That list needs more removal. By going bigger, you're conceding the early portions of the game to developing your mana, so you have to make sure that when Abzan goes long, you can as well.
Though, honestly, RUG is not well developed for the grindy game. If you're going to be playing those colors, play fast and low to the ground (a la Temur Tempo).
I'm thinking of adding a Surrak to my sideboard. But if I want him to be a part of my alt plan then it seems like I will need two.
This is where I'm at, since I think some people had asked. I like Naya since it gives us Banishing Light -- which the Jund Monsters players have been trying to replicate with Hero's Downfall. Banishing Light is much easier to cast so I think that choice makes sense. Ajani is also fantastic as he suits up dorks, Rabblemasters, and Heir of the Wilds. He also draws you Stormbreath Dragons.
In a lot of mid-range matchups, you just need 1 more dragon to put the nail in the coffin.
Elspeth, Sun's Champion is a trap unless you're playing exclusively walkers. She only has one mode if you're running 5/5s and 4/4s.
How well does GR Monsters match up with Mardu Midrange, the builds running the Hordeling Outburst/Butcher strategy? Their post-board game looks pretty nasty for us, with their Anger of the Gods and End Hostilities. In particular, this is the Monsters build I'm leaning toward. It is basically a souped up version of Scheid's list.
How well does GR Monsters match up with Mardu Midrange, the builds running the Hordeling Outburst/Butcher strategy? Their post-board game looks pretty nasty for us, with their Anger of the Gods and End Hostilities. In particular, this is the Monsters build I'm leaning toward. It is basically a souped up version of Scheid's list.
Against Anger you just try to go bigger (i.e. x/4+ creatures). You will lose your dorks but that's generally okay. Knucks is your best friend against most sweepers as you can either use his blue ability to bounce him or his green ability to put him out of range.
Any of the sweepers are vulnerable to Stubborn Denial. I noticed you're not in blue, however, so it seems like your options there are limited.
In an earlier post, I had said I would work on a primer, but I got busy with real life and this excellent post pushed it even further to a back-burner.
This weekend I had a chance to re-visit what I had and try to update/finish it. This would have been much more helpful a month ago, but I don't want to the work to completely to waste ...
G/R/x Midrange (Not Quite) Primer
Aggressive Green/Red (with and without a splash) are often a popular ‘not quite Tier 1’ strategy in recent Standard formats (see RTR-THS Jund Monsters and the INN-RTR Gruul Midrange threads); these decks wax and wane in popularity as their success often depends upon finding the correct configuration for the shifting metagame.
With the departure of Ravinca block cards, this deck lost a few seemingly irreplaceable cards in Domri Rade, Ghor-Clan Rampager, and Mizzium Mortars; however, Khans provides more than enough support to leave it a viable archetype.
The general strategy of the deck is to use the first and/or second turns to set up the ability to play four and five drop threats at least one turn ahead of schedule.
1 cmc Elvish Mystic – the best (and practically only) one-drop currently available; the best hands always include an untapped source of green mana, an Elf, and either something to play ahead of schedule, or a Temple and something to play on schedule despite the Temple coming into play tapped
2 cmc Sylvan Caryatid – is often included as the other mana critter as it can also block weenies and makes it impossible to ‘bolt the bird’ – however, some decks opt to play Rattleclaw Mystic instead (with or without the blue splash) as an additional attacker. Devotion-based versions attempting to abuse Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx prefer or also run Voyaging Satyr as the two-drop of choice. The other two-mana ramp spells such as Satyr Hedonist or Golden Hind just can’t compare to these three main options for two-mana ramp
Heir of the Wilds – is starting to see more and more play as a two drop attacker that is not a terrible late-game topdeck as it can come down and trade up or start swinging for at least two points of damage that is often hard to block.
Fleecemane Lion – a good option for versions preferring to incorporating white
3 cmc Courser of Kruphix – you can generally decide where on the aggressive midrange spectrum a deck is simply by checking the list for the number of copies of this card … zero: very aggro … two: looking for a little value … four: true midrange … Personally, I think this card’s role against R/x aggro means is important enough to run the full playset in the 75 (even if they are all in the sideboard!) when there is a lot of Foundry Street Denizen and company in the metagame.
Goblin Rabblemaster – rarely survives but can win a game quickly all by itself if it does survive – the little guy has been on a roller coaster – from underappreciated to loved/feared and back again?
Boon Satyr – Many players dropped this card en masse with the release of the two heavy hitters at three already mentioned; however, it seems to be picking up steam as a role player in the new Standard as a flashy way to hold up mana during the opponent’s turn and not waste it (especially in decks splashing blue for cards like Temur Charm)
Savage Knuckleblade – the reason to splash blue in many players’ minds; the popularity of black-based attrition midrange decks may have kept this card from making as large of an impact on Standard as had been anticipated
4 cmc
Wizards originally neutered creatures (Erhnam Djinn was too powerful, bring on Nettletooth Djinn) then reversed position to a point where creature power creep has Deadbridge Goliath sees fringe play at best; there are always more green and/or red four drops in print than one can actually play by design lately.
Polukranos, World Eater – a hallmark of the archetype; some people swear by running all four copies – I often prefer some threat diversity due to the legendary subtype. In non-devotion builds, I feel this card just dies to all of the removal right now.
Nylea, God of the Hunt – Even as an occasional singleton in lists, the trample and pump abilities are often good enough without Nylea ever swinging herself …
Reaper of the Wilds – If you are splashing black, Reaper’s scry ability is a great way to get even more value out of cards like Hero’s Downfall and Murderous Cut – the option to gain hexproof or deathtouch is just icing on the cake. This card feels like it is powerful enough to be making more of an impact on Standard to me.
Ashcloud Phoenix – the newest kid on the four-drop block is quickly becoming one of the most popular – jamming another double-red four power flyer that is resistant to removal might just be a good idea …
5+ cmc Stormbreath Dragon – the five-drop of choice in almost every monsters style deck; only the casting cost keeps it from being an auto-include across the board as haste, flying, and protection from white are all good enough before you ever get to monstrous
Surrak Dragonclaw – seeing a little play as a singleton or perhaps two copies; the textbox is full of relevance for decks already planning to play blue cards Sagu Mauler – my personal favorite reason for trying a blue splash version as it is hard to get off the table in current standard and can be played as a morph if necessary
Arbor Colossus – primarily sees play out of the sideboard or in the versions with a devotion subtheme that are running a couple Nykthos
Genesis Hydra – in the devotion subtheme versions, this card is often played with X at least equal to 3
Hornet Queen – the Queen of Midrange is often used as an endgame trump
Nissa, Worldwaker – sometimes you just want a steady stream of 4/4 tramplers
Xenagos, the Reveler – not quite as good in a world full of Mantis Rider, Lightning Strike, and cluttered grounds; however, the +1 is still a great way to be able to start playing two cards per turn
Chandra, Pyromaster – possible card advantage and the ability to remove blockers or ping x/1 creatures keeps this card playable even if you’re not in the market for her ultimate very often
Kiora, the Crashing Wave – even more poorly positioned than Xenagos right now, I have seen copies in the sideboards of some of the splash blue versions
Garuuk, Apex Predator – the prohibitive casting cost keeps this from making more of a splash in versions using black
Of course, you could also just play more copies of things I have already mentioned elsewhere!
There are a lot of ways to build G/R/x Aggressive Midrange and some version is almost always good in the current metagame if you can find the right configuration! This was true in the previous iteration of Standard (which was dominated ‘correct’ versions of Monoblack, Monoblue, and Azorious control that led to a very stale metagame) and continues to be true thus far in THS-KTK standard. While it might only be a tier-1.5 deck in some people’s mind, there are enough options (splash? constellation or devotion subthemes?) to allow pilots to constantly tinker with their build to attack the evolving metagame.
Personally, I am currently trying to find a version that works best for me ...
I am currently leaning towards a version that lightly splashes blue that leaves out the tempo cards (Knuckleblade, counterspells) and tries to use Rabblemaster and/or Bow of Nylea to force opponents into an awkward position when I hopefully follow-up with a game-breaking five drop ...
it's not quite perfect, but I like it without having played it anywhere too big yet ... there are probably too many tap-lands; I added the second Temple of Mystery and cut a third Crater's Claws to make it easier to keep an opening 7
I'm also considering trying a grindier Jund version that moves the Rabblemasters and some of the other more aggressive cards to the board (I played a Jund Midrange into Monsters with reasonable success at SCG States last fall):
I am going to give GR Monsters another try, shifting from Temur Aggro. My previous one time attempt, the deck performed not as good as I expected. But after few match ups against it, it looks more stable and consistent as compared to my mana intensive and pain lands hurt too much.
Anyway, is there any reason of not running Scuttling Doom Engine ? While most decks having a hard time dealing with Hornet Queen, it dodges the bees easily. I'm thinking of having both in main deck as singleton.
I've found that with this manabase, I'm having a hard time consisitently getting to double red mana for Sarkhan, Ashcloud Phoenix, and Stormbreath. I've also tested the same list with less Yavimaya Coasts and more Temples of Abandon and this helps colors, but as discussed and expected, that slows down the deck so much to the point where hitting your drops on the tempo you want (turn 1 Elvish Mystic, turn 2 Heir/Rattleclaw Mystic, turn 2-3 Knuckleblade) is a lot less consistent. I found that Elvish Mystic, in a version with more than 6 tap lands, is honestly pretty useless. Even at 6 tap lands it's a stretch. Maybe the answer is to just up the Mana Confluence count to 4 and go all out with it? Really just wish there were more options for G/R untapped lands, right now the only thing that kind of does that is Wooded Foothills, and even then it won't give us both colors at the same time.
I'm also considering cutting Ashcloud Phoenix in favor of something else; it's been kind of underwhelming in my testing. I see you guys saying it's really strong, but it just hasn't been performing for me. Maybe I'm not using it correctly. Can someone give me a rundown - when do I play it for its mana cost, when do I play it as a morph, etc? If I cut it, I'd go up to 4 Boon Satyrs and maybe run a Chandra or something.
The Lightning Strike in the current list is in testing in place of the 3 Stubborn Denials I started with. In my local meta, Stubborn Denials were okay, but not amazing, and I found that when it was in my hand and I asked myself if it would have been better as a Lightning Strike, I said yes most of the time. So we'll see how that goes. But with Lightning Strike in and Stubborn Denial out, the need to get blue mana goes down and the need for red mana goes up a bit.
Well, -1 Forest +1 Shivan Reef will help your red count. Mana is tight, but it usually works. Ashcloud and Stormbreath are especially awesome with Boon Satyrs. Basically just play these and attack. Unblockable damage rules. (If they play a flyer, burn it.) Ashcloud is great vs non-red decks because they must pay 3 to half-kill it. Play the Phoenix as a morph whenever you don't have somethign better to do for 3, or if you lack red it doesn't have to be stuck in your hand.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Awesome Deck: UWAll-In GiftsWU Consistent, Resiliant, and way overpowered, making multiple 4/4s per turn.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWUFree Stuff MidrangeUWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
The thing with Ashcloud Phoenix is, I've found myself rarely getting to 4RR while having a morphed Ashcloud Phoenix and not having a better play to do. When I'm at that kind of mana, I'd rather do something more significant for my board state at that point in the game. I just don't think Ashcloud Phoenix really fits within this archetype. It's a great card that can really generate some card advantage, but I just don't think this is the right deck for it. It belongs more in an all-in kind of Jeskai or mono red deck, IMO.
Strongly disagree there. What our deck really wants is creatures that keep attacking to swiftly bring the game to a close. Phoenix does that. Stormbreath does that. Polukranos does that but less efficiently because it doesn't fly. However Polukranos does provide the extremely valuable 5 toughness guy to hold the ground while we take the skies.
With 3 mana available, if the only cards I have are a tap land and a Phoenix, I'd wait to play the Phoenix. But if I have a land a Polukranos and a Phoenix, I'd play a morph now to keep advancing the game. And if I have no land, I'd play the Phoenix just to keep moving things forward. But this depends completely on the game state, as you always need to consider whether certain modes of play have a better potential to win or to not lose.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Awesome Deck: UWAll-In GiftsWU Consistent, Resiliant, and way overpowered, making multiple 4/4s per turn.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWUFree Stuff MidrangeUWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
Ashcloud Phoenix provides evasion at 4cmc -- something we lacked previously.
It gives control decks fits. When you want to play defensively, Polukranos, the World Eater is obviously much better, but he easily eats a removal spell or is chump blocked. Ashcloud Requires specific exiling and cannot easily be chumped.
Polukranos looks much better in a GRx Monster/Devo style list like the GP Los Angeles, but if your curve is lower and you want them dead "real quick like", then Ashcloud Phoenix is at least a 2-of.
So Monsters put in another showing. Interestingly, this thing is running 12 Monsters, with 12 sources of acceleration (Elvish Mystic, Sylvan Caryatid, Xenagos) in addition to Coursers.
Not sure if Courser of Kruphix is really needed here for the acceleration. I decided to drop Elvish Mystic because I think it would be more of a blank later in the game, whereas Rattleclaw can, at least, get in for two points of damage. Plus I get access to both colors, and I feel like it has the same chance of being snipped as does the elf.
One of the reasons to run Elvish Mystic and Goblin Rabblemaster is that you can turbo out a t2 Rabblemaster, which is hard for alot of decks messing with taplands to deal with.
I think Courser of Kruphix is hot trash in aggressive lists. However, there are loads of good players who disagree with me. I think Courser is best in lists that run things like Genesis Hydra and Hornet Queen -- since you have somewhere for all your mana to go. In your list, 2cmc dorks let you t3 a courser while hitting a land drop off of it, which I suppose is a benefit. I presume your list was influenced by the GP San Antonio Top 8 Temur list?
Also, play Hornet's Nest in your sideboard. It's so good agaisnt other Rabblemaster decks. It's not as good against Boss Sligh as you'd think (Hammerhand yo) but still worth it against Mardu and Jeskai (depending on how Jeskai sideboards).
Courser's role is against more aggressive lists where we play control. It blocks their creatures and gains life so we have time to take control. It's not what I want when I'm the beatdown, although it's still okay then. There is value in hitting Stormbreath on time.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Awesome Deck: UWAll-In GiftsWU Consistent, Resiliant, and way overpowered, making multiple 4/4s per turn.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWUFree Stuff MidrangeUWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
Courser isn't a 4 of in these lists. I was a long resistor to Courser last year until I caved a decided some number was good. It is like Borderland Ranger. We played that in these aggressive midrange GR decks even when it was pretty subpar as threat. Remember these were formats where your 4 drop could basically win the game on it's own (remember the Hero's, Vengevine, Bloodbraid Elf, etc..). It is very tempting to just go with Rabblemaster and that is what a lot of people started doing towards the end of the last season. The reason that was correct had a lot more to do with the texture of the format I think. In that format the aggressive decks outside of Boss Sligh weren't actually that aggressive. They were midrange critical mass decks with small crappy creatures. They weren't actually that fast to win. The rest of the format was slow midrange. There was this huge void in the space and it made a ton of sense to just pull everything down a bit to go further under the midrange decks and present a comparable board to these slow spread on board aggro decks.
That is not this format. There are way better Rabblemaster decks, pretty much every single other Rabblemaster deck is a better Rabblemaster deck. The mana atleast lets you occasionally set up T2, but the rest of the deck isn't as setup to play behind that banner. The other decks are still better at flanking you. Hopefully you get them in Claws range. I'm not saying that Courser is the best 3 drop, and I think this card pushes you into atleast some number of Heirs because the lack of more 1 drop accelerators means you need more 2 mana plays than your 2 drop accelerators (unless you want to play a lot of them). Maybe Rabblemaster is the only effective aggressive 3 in these colors so you just have to concede that's how the deck works. But it comes with the understanding that is the awkwardness here.
The bigger issue with the above list is the 8 tapped lands. Seriously why even bother playing acceleration if you are probably going to get 1-2 taplands in your first 4 lands. Well to offset your taplands but it means you are doing nothing fast, at that point splash a color and get some more powerful cards. Jund Monsters last year only played 5 taplands and in my opinion that was pushing it. Wonder why Naya Monsters was never a thing.. a stupid amount of taplands. It might win a tournament when someones running well (I believe it did) but the timing has the potential of being so off. One thing I am sure of is sitting behind Courser isn't going to win you the game as those tapped lands come into play against over half the format unless you are dropping Eidolons and Hornet Queens. That's not to say Courser isn't good (like how Borderland Ranger was) but that can't be the plan. In a green deck say a splash or one that say benefits from Boon Satyr where I have another aggressive 3 drop I probably skip Rabblemaster in a heartbeat (I think it's the worst aggressive 3 drop right now in green decks), whereas Courser is a harder judgment and it depends more on what the rest of the deck is doing as to whether you have room and to what quantity. If you get to a place where Rabblemaster and Courser are the 2 competing for slots I'd almost always go for Courser, but it's usually that something else is vying for spots and perhaps we are looking at the wrong card to replace (Courser instead of Rabblemaster). It might simply be that Rabblemaster is a necessary sacrifice for straight GR since cards like Fanatic of Xenagos are so not really it.
Out of curiousity has any straight GR builders tried a Boon Satyr heavy deck. I'm assuming it's not as good as in the blue splash because you lack cards like Stubborn Denial but you'd be surprised how many people are unwilling to trade even their 2 drop for it. It's one area of green deck design I haven't really tried yet. I moved to GBu before I got there.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Decks: GWUKnightfall Modern UWTempo Legacy UGRBurning Wish Cobra Vintage
This was never a Rabblemaster deck. I use the Rabblemaster as more an "oh *****, do I deal with their hydra/dragon, and ignore the goblin...or vice versa" type card. Courser was never the plan, I see it as more a necessary burden. It is pseudo accel/draw, pseudo being why I consider it a burden. Dragons, hydras, phoenixes are the plan for the GR. I never cared for Boon Satyr in my RGu. If you need a Ferocious trigger, it looks fine alongside Knuckleblade. None of the RG Monsters builds that've made it to the tops have needed the Ferocious subtheme. I see that more in Temur where you use painlands to race out Knuckleblades and hope you can turn the lifeloss to your advantage. I have seen Satyr Wayfinder in some GR Monsters, including one Monsters that was running a triad of Nykthos. In this sort of build, I think you'd be better off with Genesis Hydra over Rabblemaster, since you can Hydra for four and still have a good chance at hitting Xenagos, Polukranos, or Ashcloud Phoenix. The biggest weakness this deck faces is turning up blanks later on, your Mystics and Caryatids.
I am a fan of the 12 Monster package: 4 SBD, 3-4 PolyK, 4 Ashcloud Phoenix, 0-1 Genesis Hydra.
Lugger, did you miss having Coursers in your Naya Monster build.
Trickiest part of Genesis Hydra is the jump. The old 8 3 drops, 7 4 drops, 4 5 drops, 2-3 6 drops (should count Claws here maybe, the way we counted Mortars).. the old Fires of Yavimaya curve generally works pretty decently but those sort of decks while they could consistently get to 6 getting past that was harder. Hydra at x=4 is just not quite good enough. I think x=5 is where it comes in, and there is Hornet Queen there too.. Basically the format is asking you to jump from 5 to 7. This bad for the Fires curve that already has to play too much mana to get there (realistically 32-33 sources). The problem is you cut down the top a bit more. Ie.. don't really count Claws that way stop at 1 bigger drop, play only 31 mana sources (I'm not counting Courser by the way since it isn't guarenteed.. it's probably a fraction of a source) getting that jump becomes even harder. Nykthos is one way but it attacks your mana a bit and might be a dud or you never draw it and Xenagos is the other way but requires you to be ahead really (and is sort of bad a against a chunk of the format the deck is already pretty bad against). You are already fringing at a level where you have so many dead cards due to mana. Your top end must be effective and there must be enough of it. I think it was intentional to make it easier to make decks a little bigger (ie harder matchups) and to limit the closing power of decks this size making it a bit weaker to decks a little smaller. The Souls are arguably the only 6 drops but they require such a mana investment that even if the red Soul is hugely powerful it's too much. Give this deck a Inferno Titan or another Stormbreath Dragon quality card and you are set. I mean sort of .. the 3 drop could use some help too, and I'd take elf 5-8 as well. You have to make the clunkiness pay off, and without a great equalizer it's really hard. Having to rely on 2 mana dorks is horrible enough as it is. The whole thing pushes you bigger or smaller. But smaller takes away most of the incentive here (lack of that really outstanding 3 drop).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Decks: GWUKnightfall Modern UWTempo Legacy UGRBurning Wish Cobra Vintage
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Basically that. Maybe Surrak. Depends on the flavor of the month. You can also play Hornet Queen, Arbor Colossus, and Genesis Hydra but meh.
I have no idea. That list needs more removal. By going bigger, you're conceding the early portions of the game to developing your mana, so you have to make sure that when Abzan goes long, you can as well.
Though, honestly, RUG is not well developed for the grindy game. If you're going to be playing those colors, play fast and low to the ground (a la Temur Tempo).
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Hornet Nest
2 Ashcloud Phoenix
2 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Hornet Queen
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
Spells
3 Crater's Claws
4 Lightning Strike
2 Stoke the Flames
Lands
3 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Temple of Abandon
6 Forest
6 Mountain
Is Anger of the Gods necessarily bad in these decks? I didn't want to copy Scheid's Monsters list, but he was packing three in his sideboard. Jund might also be a possibility. Deathdealer is attractive because I can regenerate after an End Hostilities and retain a bit of board presence. I am not sure on Rabblemaster, here. I think perhaps I want Lightning Strike, and that the Downfalls want to be Murderous Cuts.
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
3 Rakshasa Deathdealer
3 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Ashcloud Phoenix
1 Reaper of the Wilds
2 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Liliana Vess
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
Spells
2 Hero's Downfall
Lands
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Mountain
3 Forest
2 Swamp
3 Temple of Abandon
2 Temple of Malice
2 Temple of Malady
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
I disagree about cutting a Mana Confluence. While hands that open on two of them suck, they are rare. One of the good things about this deck is that it mulligans just fine due to the fact that it's not a deck full of 1-of's and miscellaneous cards that don't affect the board, e.g. Dig Through Time.
Sarkhan vs. SBD...ah, the age-old debate. I like them both and for different reasons. Sarkhan is hard for them to remove but SBD is even harder. That said, SBD will eat a Hero's Downfall in your attack step while Sarkhan will at least get 4 in. And sometimes his -3 is actually just what the doctor ordered.
I really don't like either of them as haymakers, honestly. Crater's Claws does that better and more frequently. But we don't have a whole lot to choose from.
I'm really thinking of cutting Temur Charm entirely. Its modes are mostly useful, that's true, but I don't like it as much as I want to for the same reason Kibler gave: it doesn't help you when you're behind.
The cards that really helped ease my mana concerns with colors were Boon Satyr and Fanatic of Xenagos. They make hands that you'd have to throw back, because of color concerns such as your only blue source being a Rattleclaw, keepable. Fanatic is really quite a force too. One of my Abzan opponents was so scared of it that he Thoughtseized it over Knuckleblade on turn 2 once.
Some folks like Rabblemaster here but I don't.
I didn't get restricted at all by having an awkward hand with taplands. There were zero times where I *had* to go T1 Mystic or die. More often it was T1 tapland into T2 Rattleclaw or Heir. And those starts are fine.
Anyway, for the most part, I agree with everything you said. Do you have a list of your own?
I'm thinking of adding a Surrak to my sideboard. But if I want him to be a part of my alt plan then it seems like I will need two.
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Sylvan Caryatid
4x Goblin Rabblemaster
2x Ashcloud Phoenix
3x Polukranos, World Eater
3x Stormbreath Dragon
3x Heir of the Wilds
Planeswalkers (5)
2x Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
2x Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
1x Xenagos, the Reveler
3x Lightning Strike
2x Banishing Light
3x Crater's Claws
Lands (24)
4x Forest
2x Mountain
1x Plains
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Temple of Abandon
4x Windswept Heath
1x Mana Confluence
4x Battlefield Forge
2x Glare of Heresy
2x Anger of the Gods
1x Nyx-Fleece Ram
2x Magma Spray
1x Xenagos, God of Revels
2x Destructive Revelry
2x Hushwing Gryff
2x Reprisal
1x Xenagos, the Reveler
This is where I'm at, since I think some people had asked. I like Naya since it gives us Banishing Light -- which the Jund Monsters players have been trying to replicate with Hero's Downfall. Banishing Light is much easier to cast so I think that choice makes sense. Ajani is also fantastic as he suits up dorks, Rabblemasters, and Heir of the Wilds. He also draws you Stormbreath Dragons.
In a lot of mid-range matchups, you just need 1 more dragon to put the nail in the coffin.
Elspeth, Sun's Champion is a trap unless you're playing exclusively walkers. She only has one mode if you're running 5/5s and 4/4s.
3 Ashcloud Phoenix
4 Boon Satyr
3 Elvish Mystic
4 Heir of the Wilds
1 Polis Crusher
3 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Savage Knuckleblade
Planeswalkers (2):
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
Instants & Sorceries (9):
4 Crater's Claws
4 Lightning Strike
1 Temur Charm
3 Forest
2 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Frontier Bivouac
4 Yavimaya Coast
1 Shivan Reef
2 Mana Confluence
1 Temple of Mystery
2 Temple of Epiphany
2 Arc Lightning
2 Back to Nature
2 Disdainful Stroke
3 Hunt the Hunter
2 Magma Spray
3 Stubborn Denial
1 Surrak Dragonclaw
Wish me luck!
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Voyaging Satyr
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Hornet Queen
2 Crater's Claws
Planeswalkers
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
3 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
Lands
3 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Temple of Abandon
4 Wooded Foothills
6 Forest
6 Mountain
3 Genesis Hydra
2 Nissa, Worldwaker
3 Destructive Revelry
2 Arc Lightning
3 Anger of the Gods
2 Fated Conflagration
Any of the sweepers are vulnerable to Stubborn Denial. I noticed you're not in blue, however, so it seems like your options there are limited.
This weekend I had a chance to re-visit what I had and try to update/finish it. This would have been much more helpful a month ago, but I don't want to the work to completely to waste ...
G/R/x Midrange (Not Quite) Primer
Aggressive Green/Red (with and without a splash) are often a popular ‘not quite Tier 1’ strategy in recent Standard formats (see RTR-THS Jund Monsters and the INN-RTR Gruul Midrange threads); these decks wax and wane in popularity as their success often depends upon finding the correct configuration for the shifting metagame.
With the departure of Ravinca block cards, this deck lost a few seemingly irreplaceable cards in Domri Rade, Ghor-Clan Rampager, and Mizzium Mortars; however, Khans provides more than enough support to leave it a viable archetype.
4 Sylvan Caryatid
1 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Boon Satyr
4 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Crater’s Claws
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
9 Forest
6 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Temple of Abandon
2 Nylea’s Disciple
3 Mistcutter Hydra
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
1 Unravel the Aether
4 Magma Spray
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Bow of Nylea
1 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
The most common splash is currently blue:
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Heir of the Wilds
4 Savage Knuckleblade
4 Boon Satyr
3 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Ashcloud Phoenix
3 Lightning Strike
2 Temur Charm
4 Crater’s Claws
1 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
2 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Frontier Bivouac
3 Mana Confluence
4 Yavimaya Coast
1 Shivan Reef
2 Temple of Epiphany
2 Magma Spray
1 Lightning Strike
1 Arc Lightning
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Barrage of Boulders
1 Temur Charm
3 Hunt the Hunter
1 Back to Nature
“Red-Green Elspeth” was one of the top decks at PT: Journey into Nyx and has been ported to current standard:
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Courser of Kruphix
3 Polukranos, World Eater
3 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Lightning Strike
2 Crater’s Claws
3 Banishing Light
4 Xenagos, the Reveler
3 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
2 Elspeth, Sun’s Champion
2 Mountain
2 Plains
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Temple of Abandon
2 Reclamation Sage
3 Arbor Colossus
2 Hornet Nest
1 Hornet Queen
1 Circle of Flame
3 Magma Spray
2 Glare of Heresy
1 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
I was working on continuing to incorporate black early in the season:
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Reaper of the Wilds
3 Polukranos, World Eater
3 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Lightning Strike
2 Murderous Cut
1 Crater’s Claws
2 Bow of Nylea
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
3 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Mana Confluence
3 Llanowar Wastes
4 Temple of Abandon
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Polis Crusher
1 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Magma Spray
3 Thoughtseize
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Garruk, Apex Predator
1 cmc
Elvish Mystic – the best (and practically only) one-drop currently available; the best hands always include an untapped source of green mana, an Elf, and either something to play ahead of schedule, or a Temple and something to play on schedule despite the Temple coming into play tapped
2 cmc
Sylvan Caryatid – is often included as the other mana critter as it can also block weenies and makes it impossible to ‘bolt the bird’ – however, some decks opt to play Rattleclaw Mystic instead (with or without the blue splash) as an additional attacker. Devotion-based versions attempting to abuse Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx prefer or also run Voyaging Satyr as the two-drop of choice. The other two-mana ramp spells such as Satyr Hedonist or Golden Hind just can’t compare to these three main options for two-mana ramp
Heir of the Wilds – is starting to see more and more play as a two drop attacker that is not a terrible late-game topdeck as it can come down and trade up or start swinging for at least two points of damage that is often hard to block.
Fleecemane Lion – a good option for versions preferring to incorporating white
3 cmc
Courser of Kruphix – you can generally decide where on the aggressive midrange spectrum a deck is simply by checking the list for the number of copies of this card … zero: very aggro … two: looking for a little value … four: true midrange … Personally, I think this card’s role against R/x aggro means is important enough to run the full playset in the 75 (even if they are all in the sideboard!) when there is a lot of Foundry Street Denizen and company in the metagame.
Goblin Rabblemaster – rarely survives but can win a game quickly all by itself if it does survive – the little guy has been on a roller coaster – from underappreciated to loved/feared and back again?
Boon Satyr – Many players dropped this card en masse with the release of the two heavy hitters at three already mentioned; however, it seems to be picking up steam as a role player in the new Standard as a flashy way to hold up mana during the opponent’s turn and not waste it (especially in decks splashing blue for cards like Temur Charm)
Savage Knuckleblade – the reason to splash blue in many players’ minds; the popularity of black-based attrition midrange decks may have kept this card from making as large of an impact on Standard as had been anticipated
4 cmc
Wizards originally neutered creatures (Erhnam Djinn was too powerful, bring on Nettletooth Djinn) then reversed position to a point where creature power creep has Deadbridge Goliath sees fringe play at best; there are always more green and/or red four drops in print than one can actually play by design lately.
Polukranos, World Eater – a hallmark of the archetype; some people swear by running all four copies – I often prefer some threat diversity due to the legendary subtype. In non-devotion builds, I feel this card just dies to all of the removal right now.
Nylea, God of the Hunt – Even as an occasional singleton in lists, the trample and pump abilities are often good enough without Nylea ever swinging herself …
Reaper of the Wilds – If you are splashing black, Reaper’s scry ability is a great way to get even more value out of cards like Hero’s Downfall and Murderous Cut – the option to gain hexproof or deathtouch is just icing on the cake. This card feels like it is powerful enough to be making more of an impact on Standard to me.
Ashcloud Phoenix – the newest kid on the four-drop block is quickly becoming one of the most popular – jamming another double-red four power flyer that is resistant to removal might just be a good idea …
5+ cmc
Stormbreath Dragon – the five-drop of choice in almost every monsters style deck; only the casting cost keeps it from being an auto-include across the board as haste, flying, and protection from white are all good enough before you ever get to monstrous
Surrak Dragonclaw – seeing a little play as a singleton or perhaps two copies; the textbox is full of relevance for decks already planning to play blue cards
Sagu Mauler – my personal favorite reason for trying a blue splash version as it is hard to get off the table in current standard and can be played as a morph if necessary
Arbor Colossus – primarily sees play out of the sideboard or in the versions with a devotion subtheme that are running a couple Nykthos
Genesis Hydra – in the devotion subtheme versions, this card is often played with X at least equal to 3
Hornet Queen – the Queen of Midrange is often used as an endgame trump
Nissa, Worldwaker – sometimes you just want a steady stream of 4/4 tramplers
Xenagos, the Reveler – not quite as good in a world full of Mantis Rider, Lightning Strike, and cluttered grounds; however, the +1 is still a great way to be able to start playing two cards per turn
Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker – a good card even if he’s often just Stormbreath Dragon numbers 5 and/or 6
Chandra, Pyromaster – possible card advantage and the ability to remove blockers or ping x/1 creatures keeps this card playable even if you’re not in the market for her ultimate very often
Kiora, the Crashing Wave – even more poorly positioned than Xenagos right now, I have seen copies in the sideboards of some of the splash blue versions
Garuuk, Apex Predator – the prohibitive casting cost keeps this from making more of a splash in versions using black
Elspeth, Sun’s Champion and Ajani, Mentor of Heroes – often show up in Naya variants even though Elspeth’s minus ability doesn’t play great with most of the monsters
Red offers a variety of burn spells including Lightning Strike, Stoke the Flames, and Crater’s Claws as the most common options.
Blue offers tempo spells such as Stubborn Denial, Temur Charm, Disdainful Stroke, or even a couple copies of Dig ThroughTime
Black offers better removal in Hero’s Downfall and Murderous Cut
White offers Banishing Light and even Glare of Heresy out of the sideboard
Artifact/Enchantment removal such as Reclamation Sage, Back to Nature, or Destructive Revelry usually has a target in most matchups and might save you from Jeskai Ascendancy combo decks
Magma Spray, Arc Lightning, and/or Anger of the Gods can keep you from getting ran over by a horde of weenies
Setessan Tactics, Harness by Force ,Hornet Nest, and Hunt the Hunter are good options to keep in mind for near mirrors
Of course, you could also just play more copies of things I have already mentioned elsewhere!
There are a lot of ways to build G/R/x Aggressive Midrange and some version is almost always good in the current metagame if you can find the right configuration! This was true in the previous iteration of Standard (which was dominated ‘correct’ versions of Monoblack, Monoblue, and Azorious control that led to a very stale metagame) and continues to be true thus far in THS-KTK standard. While it might only be a tier-1.5 deck in some people’s mind, there are enough options (splash? constellation or devotion subthemes?) to allow pilots to constantly tinker with their build to attack the evolving metagame.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Personally, I am currently trying to find a version that works best for me ...
I am currently leaning towards a version that lightly splashes blue that leaves out the tempo cards (Knuckleblade, counterspells) and tries to use Rabblemaster and/or Bow of Nylea to force opponents into an awkward position when I hopefully follow-up with a game-breaking five drop ...
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
1 Surrak Dragonclaw
2 Sagu Mauler
3 Lightning Strike
2 Crater's Claws
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
4 Forest
4 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Temple of Abandon
2 Temple of Mystery
4 Frontier Bivouac
2 Mana Confluence
2 Ashcloud Phoenix
1 Polukranos, World Eater
2 Arbor Colossus
2 Arc Lightning
2 Magma Spray
1 Lightning Strike
2 Destructive Revelry
1 Back to Nature
2 Temur Charm
it's not quite perfect, but I like it without having played it anywhere too big yet ... there are probably too many tap-lands; I added the second Temple of Mystery and cut a third Crater's Claws to make it easier to keep an opening 7
I'm also considering trying a grindier Jund version that moves the Rabblemasters and some of the other more aggressive cards to the board (I played a Jund Midrange into Monsters with reasonable success at SCG States last fall):
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Heir of the Wilds
2 Raksasha Deathdealer
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Reaper of the Wilds
3 Polukranos, World Eater
3 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Liliana Vess
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
1 Bow of Nylea
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Murderous Cut
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Temple of Abandon
3 Temple of Malady
2 Mana Confluence
5 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Whip of Erebos
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
1 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
3 Lightning Strike
2 Destructive Revelry
I hope to play one or the other at the TCG 5k in Richmond, KY next weekend.
Anyway, is there any reason of not running Scuttling Doom Engine ? While most decks having a hard time dealing with Hornet Queen, it dodges the bees easily. I'm thinking of having both in main deck as singleton.
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Courser of Kruphix
3 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Ashcloud Phoenix
4 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Genesis Hydra
1 Hornet Queen
1 Scuttling Doom Engine
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
Spells (7)
4 Crater's Claws
3 Lightning Strike
Lands (23)
4 Temple of Abandon
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Bloodstained mire
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
7 Forest
5 Mountain
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
3 Forest
2 Mountain
4 Yavimaya Coast
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Temple of Abandon
1 Temple of Mystery
2 Shivan Reef
2 Mana Confluence
4 Frontier Bivouac
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Heir of the Wilds
4 Savage Knuckleblade
2 Boon Satyr
3 Polukranos, World Eater
3 Ashcloud Phoenix
2 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Crater's Claws
Instant (6)
3 Temur Charm
3 Lightning Strike
Planeswalker (2)
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
Link to deck @ TappedOut.net
I've found that with this manabase, I'm having a hard time consisitently getting to double red mana for Sarkhan, Ashcloud Phoenix, and Stormbreath. I've also tested the same list with less Yavimaya Coasts and more Temples of Abandon and this helps colors, but as discussed and expected, that slows down the deck so much to the point where hitting your drops on the tempo you want (turn 1 Elvish Mystic, turn 2 Heir/Rattleclaw Mystic, turn 2-3 Knuckleblade) is a lot less consistent. I found that Elvish Mystic, in a version with more than 6 tap lands, is honestly pretty useless. Even at 6 tap lands it's a stretch. Maybe the answer is to just up the Mana Confluence count to 4 and go all out with it? Really just wish there were more options for G/R untapped lands, right now the only thing that kind of does that is Wooded Foothills, and even then it won't give us both colors at the same time.
I'm also considering cutting Ashcloud Phoenix in favor of something else; it's been kind of underwhelming in my testing. I see you guys saying it's really strong, but it just hasn't been performing for me. Maybe I'm not using it correctly. Can someone give me a rundown - when do I play it for its mana cost, when do I play it as a morph, etc? If I cut it, I'd go up to 4 Boon Satyrs and maybe run a Chandra or something.
The Lightning Strike in the current list is in testing in place of the 3 Stubborn Denials I started with. In my local meta, Stubborn Denials were okay, but not amazing, and I found that when it was in my hand and I asked myself if it would have been better as a Lightning Strike, I said yes most of the time. So we'll see how that goes. But with Lightning Strike in and Stubborn Denial out, the need to get blue mana goes down and the need for red mana goes up a bit.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
With 3 mana available, if the only cards I have are a tap land and a Phoenix, I'd wait to play the Phoenix. But if I have a land a Polukranos and a Phoenix, I'd play a morph now to keep advancing the game. And if I have no land, I'd play the Phoenix just to keep moving things forward. But this depends completely on the game state, as you always need to consider whether certain modes of play have a better potential to win or to not lose.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
It gives control decks fits. When you want to play defensively, Polukranos, the World Eater is obviously much better, but he easily eats a removal spell or is chump blocked. Ashcloud Requires specific exiling and cannot easily be chumped.
Polukranos looks much better in a GRx Monster/Devo style list like the GP Los Angeles, but if your curve is lower and you want them dead "real quick like", then Ashcloud Phoenix is at least a 2-of.
3x Rattleclaw Mystic
4x Heir of the Wilds
4x Goblin Rabblemaster
2x Boon Satyr
2x Polukranos, World Eater
4x Ashcloud Phoenix
2x Chandra, Pyromaster
2x Stormbreath Dragon
2x Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
4x Crater's Claws
1x Fated Conflagration
4x Temple of Abandon
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Mana Confluence
7x Forest
6x Mountain
2x Arc Lightning
2x Destructive Revelry
2x Xenagos, the Reveler
2x Magma Spray
1x Ranger's Guile
2x Hornet nest
2x Hunt the Hunter
2x Barrage of Boulders
This is where I'm at right now.
Edit: Whoops. Too many lands. Fix'd.
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Courser of Kruphix
3 Ashcloud Phoenix
3 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Lightning Strike
3 Crater's Claws
Planeswalkers
3 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
Lands
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Temple of Abandon
4 Rugged Highlands
6 Mountain
6 Forest
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Nissa, Worldwaker
2 Harness by Force
3 Destructive Revelry
3 Anger of the Gods
3 Arc Lightning
Not sure if Courser of Kruphix is really needed here for the acceleration. I decided to drop Elvish Mystic because I think it would be more of a blank later in the game, whereas Rattleclaw can, at least, get in for two points of damage. Plus I get access to both colors, and I feel like it has the same chance of being snipped as does the elf.
I think Courser of Kruphix is hot trash in aggressive lists. However, there are loads of good players who disagree with me. I think Courser is best in lists that run things like Genesis Hydra and Hornet Queen -- since you have somewhere for all your mana to go. In your list, 2cmc dorks let you t3 a courser while hitting a land drop off of it, which I suppose is a benefit. I presume your list was influenced by the GP San Antonio Top 8 Temur list?
Also, play Hornet's Nest in your sideboard. It's so good agaisnt other Rabblemaster decks. It's not as good against Boss Sligh as you'd think (Hammerhand yo) but still worth it against Mardu and Jeskai (depending on how Jeskai sideboards).
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
That is not this format. There are way better Rabblemaster decks, pretty much every single other Rabblemaster deck is a better Rabblemaster deck. The mana atleast lets you occasionally set up T2, but the rest of the deck isn't as setup to play behind that banner. The other decks are still better at flanking you. Hopefully you get them in Claws range. I'm not saying that Courser is the best 3 drop, and I think this card pushes you into atleast some number of Heirs because the lack of more 1 drop accelerators means you need more 2 mana plays than your 2 drop accelerators (unless you want to play a lot of them). Maybe Rabblemaster is the only effective aggressive 3 in these colors so you just have to concede that's how the deck works. But it comes with the understanding that is the awkwardness here.
The bigger issue with the above list is the 8 tapped lands. Seriously why even bother playing acceleration if you are probably going to get 1-2 taplands in your first 4 lands. Well to offset your taplands but it means you are doing nothing fast, at that point splash a color and get some more powerful cards. Jund Monsters last year only played 5 taplands and in my opinion that was pushing it. Wonder why Naya Monsters was never a thing.. a stupid amount of taplands. It might win a tournament when someones running well (I believe it did) but the timing has the potential of being so off. One thing I am sure of is sitting behind Courser isn't going to win you the game as those tapped lands come into play against over half the format unless you are dropping Eidolons and Hornet Queens. That's not to say Courser isn't good (like how Borderland Ranger was) but that can't be the plan. In a green deck say a splash or one that say benefits from Boon Satyr where I have another aggressive 3 drop I probably skip Rabblemaster in a heartbeat (I think it's the worst aggressive 3 drop right now in green decks), whereas Courser is a harder judgment and it depends more on what the rest of the deck is doing as to whether you have room and to what quantity. If you get to a place where Rabblemaster and Courser are the 2 competing for slots I'd almost always go for Courser, but it's usually that something else is vying for spots and perhaps we are looking at the wrong card to replace (Courser instead of Rabblemaster). It might simply be that Rabblemaster is a necessary sacrifice for straight GR since cards like Fanatic of Xenagos are so not really it.
Out of curiousity has any straight GR builders tried a Boon Satyr heavy deck. I'm assuming it's not as good as in the blue splash because you lack cards like Stubborn Denial but you'd be surprised how many people are unwilling to trade even their 2 drop for it. It's one area of green deck design I haven't really tried yet. I moved to GBu before I got there.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
I am a fan of the 12 Monster package: 4 SBD, 3-4 PolyK, 4 Ashcloud Phoenix, 0-1 Genesis Hydra.
Lugger, did you miss having Coursers in your Naya Monster build.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage