(Edit: I arrogantly responded thinking I was right and I am indeed wrong. I misinterpreted how Deflecting Palm works. Thanks for the correction.)
Anyway, I do agree that them being able to possibly burn you out before they draw is an issue with altar as the wincon. However I'm not too worried about it for two reasons: One, it's only a concern against burn and Two it's unlikely that they will have the mana to burn you out twice(possible, but unlikely because if you're going off fast enough like the deck wants to they have 4 lands tops) so you can just main board a single counter spell and then loot through your library til it's in hand and pass with mana dorks untapped. Not an end all to the "they could burn you on upkeep" argument, but it makes it less of an issue.
On a side note with slide then, what win condition would you run that would give your tokens haste to win that turn that wouldn't also provide another wincon?
"Whenever you cast a noncreature spell, you may pay 1. If you do, put a 1/1 red Goblin creature token with haste onto the battlefield."
In Tian's version, is Tormenting Voice really better than the 4th Dig?
He runs 2 Bribers Purse, is that enough? And can Nissa be cut? It seems SO much easier to explain to people the 'deck' you combo vs going forever to do the Nissa Trample you combo (or is Nissa just that much better?) We also have 22 land, can one of them be cut and with less land, cut Nissa?
Also Taigma's Scheming is bad, but DIG IS SOOO GOOD!
In Tian's version, is Tormenting Voice really better than the 4th Dig?
He runs 2 Bribers Purse, is that enough? And can Nissa be cut? It seems SO much easier to explain to people the 'deck' you combo vs going forever to do the Nissa Trample you combo (or is Nissa just that much better?) We also have 22 land, can one of them be cut and with less land, cut Nissa?
Also Taigma's Scheming is bad, but DIG IS SOOO GOOD!
This deck tries to win too quickly, quickly enough to the point to where you don't want to draw multiple Digs early before comboing. Tormenting Voice is meant to be an easier to cast draw spell that synergizes well with Dig.
Nissa functions as:
- A 5th Caryatid most of the time
- A mana dork that has haste / triggers Ascendancy when cast
- An alternate wincon
Regardless when you combo you can just Twinflame into a million guys, bounce their stuff away and kill them the same without Nissa.
Thanks, SaintA for that link. An interesting read.
I went 4-1 at FNM, but I'm not sure I'll play the deck again. What follows is a brief report, some comments, and then my feelings on the deck.
Round 1: 2-1 against WRB midrange. We went to time game three. He misplayed a fetch which cost him game 2, but only after I misplayed a combat phase helix. Deicide hurts. Possibly more than targeted removal. But Thoughtseize is an absolute house against us.
Round 2: 0-2. G/W aggro. Neither game was even close. Bad mulligan choices game 1; drew only SB cards game 2.
Round 3: 2-1, RDW. Circle of flame makes goblins cry. That is all.
Round 4: 2-1 against Jeskai Tempo. I feared Deicide or counter spells. Tapping out for Mantis Rider was the window I needed.
Round 5: technically an intentional draw, but we played for fun and I won 2-1. G/R devotion.
Match 1 & 5 emphasized the importance of understanding Triggers and the Stack. This deck is super easy to mess up, forget triggers, or otherwise shoot yourself in the foot. [italics]My understanding[/italics] is that Ascendancy triggers occur when the spell is cast- not resolved. You get triggers before passing priority. My opponent allows Ascendancy to resolve and then [italics]before I pass priority[/italics] I cast a spell. He responds with Deicide, but I will still get to loot and untap.
In hindsight, I may have cheated match 5. I had two Sylvan Caryatid and a summoning sick Rattleclaw Mystic and was desperately seeking a Twinflame so I could, you know, attack with something. With three Ascendancies in play, Rattleclaw was arbitrarily large, Twinflame resolves, leaving a 2/1 hastey copy. Again, before passing priority after resolution of Twinflame, I cast Briber's Purse. My opponent responded with Lightning Strike on the token. I would get the three triggers, but they would go on the stack before the strike, meaning my copy should have died. At the time I insisted I would get the triggers first, thus making my copy a 5/4 (3 uptap +1/+1 triggers from 3 Ascendancy), meaning it would survive the removal. Thankfully, that game was for fun. Or am I wrong with how the triggers would stack/resolve?
How bonkers would this deck be with 1 more cantrip? Serum Visions or Sleight of Hand, or my absolute dream- Gitaxian Probe! With that said, I do wonder if Tormenting Voice really does need to find a spot here. Turn 2 dork gives you 4 mana turn 3. Another dork AND... ?? Divination costs 3. Voice fits perfectly here, although I do wish you drew first and then discarded. Definitely a couple games I cast Dragon Mantle and/or Strike on my opponents' creatures just to draw (obv I didn't have a dork yet). Pitching something to draw 2 seems better.
In my very limited experience, by far the MVP out of the SB was Circle of Flame and Swan Song. Not even sure the other 7 cards matter.
Keeping track of +1/+1, +1/+0 from Strikes, in addition to floating mana and remembering all the Ascendancy triggers can be an absolute pain. I know I took too long some matches, and I also know I forgot to actually resolve some spells (doing the loot/untap triggers but then not drawing a card from Strike or even once forgetting to actually Dig Through Time). Multiple Ascendacies compound this, needing to remember exactly how much mana you can float and remembering to do so in-between triggers resolving. Whether it's dice, paper, or something else, it requires either lots of time, or trust from your opponent.
But that's not why I'm thinking of selling/trading the parts away. I thought this deck would play like classic Vintage Storm. It plays much more like Modern Eggs. It's the kind of deck you feel dirty playing and apologize to opponents after beating them. It's magic solitaire at its worst. Infinite combos are fine (and fun!), but IMHO they need to win on the spot. Yes, any opponent can concede if they don't want to wait. But knowing it CAN fizzle, it just makes the match somehow unfriendly. I'm not calling for a ban; just my thoughts after one night of play.
Do you guys think that the version with or without Dragon Mantle is better overall?
I would imagine that the more 0-mana artifacts would make the non-Dragon Mantle version faster, but the Dragon Mantles would improve consistency.
Thoughts?
A playset of Dragon Mantle in the deck is a must IMO.
It is the only true cantrip card this standard version of the deck has, and the deck cannot afford losing too many cards in the hand since you need extra cards to consistently loot to find whatever win cards and make other cards work (Dig Through Time, Treasure Cruise).
Those 0-mana artifacts are there just to finish the combo off.
0-mana artifacts are unnecessary IMO. They eat away at slots that could be reserved for digging/cantrips. If you have a Helix and Mantle you can draw your whole deck, play all your Ascendancies, and repeatedly bounce one.
If you are going to run an artifact, absolutely do not ever run Astral Cornucopia. Briber's Purse is at least useful pre-combo, but Astral Cornucopia is a completely dead card unless you've already won the game.
Also if you don't run a playset of Dragon Mantle, you're asking to lose.
Is it possible to have a combination of the 0-cmc artifacts and Dragon Mantle? or is it one or the other?
I'm going to gameday tomorrow (today technically) and I am using the 0-cmc artifacts/CFB version. I USED to have the Dragon Mantle Version, though. Will try to post some results later.
I'm not sure. I'm not sure about Dragon Mantle being a must. I combo'd people all day long without Dragon Mantle. Helix + Purse + Ascendancy. Then get the Altar and mill them out. The pro is you only need one mana dork, not 2 and one land in hand. I used Dragon Mantle as a cantrip.
I was actually 5-0 at Game day. The deck performed perfectly even through disruption.
But in the Top 8, I let the deck down. I promised I WOULD GO FOR IT! And I didn't I was playing against control and our deck can 'go long' vs control (believe it or not). I had him without counters and Ascendency in hand and I should've played it for the win (waiting doesn't help). My mistake!
Also for sideboard, our deck can sideboard like a real deck. We don't need to betray Umbrella Revolution by adding in creatures like Knuckleblade. I sideboarded in 3 Swan Song and 3 Thoughtsieze (!) and it helped and shocked opponents. What to take out? Tormenting Voice/Dragon Mantle, maybe 1 guy etc. Never cut Commune, Dig, Taigma, Helix.
I am running ;
4 Dig, 1 Taigma, 4 Commune, 11 Mana dudes (Follower is better than Mystic as you can Helix repeatedly), no Nissa (too slow), 4 Dragon Mantle (game one only), 4 Purse, 1 Altar, 1 Twinflame, 4 Helix, etc.
There is only 2 wincons (Altar/Twinflame) and that's all you need. Nissa is a 1 of and I cut her to the sideboard (never needed her).
The way to play the deck, they are AFRAID of us. They keep mana up and waste turns not playing their own threats (they have to), and that can buy time. You use Commune/Taigma to fuel big Digs. Running less than 4 is a mistake as it's the best card in the deck. Because you're not trying to go 'ridiculous' you just need 1 mana guy, 1 helix, 1 purse, 1 ascendency. All doable.
The only problem is if you Commune and discard your Altar! It happens and you can also mill your Twinflame so don't get super greedy with Commune. That's why Taigma helps. Might even run more as it protects vs Thoughtsieze.
And you don't 'fizzle' with the deck, you go off with combo in hand not 'trying to get there with random cantrips/spells'. Get your combo, then put it down.
Also the deck plays VERY fast the more you play it and if your opponent knows what's happening That's why I like Altar, even the most out of of opponent knew what happens.
I have the Altar version as well. No Dragon's Mantle though. My list is almost exactly like the CFB List.
First, I was always worried about getting Red Mana. Turns out, you get enough (and only need 1 or 2 at the most).
My results are:
Round 1: Jeskai Tempo
0-2. Almost combo'd off on second game. It is hard to get out of burn reach. I was able to hold back riders but Charm and combination of burns just got me.
Round 2: Mono Red Aggro
0-2. Way too fast, even post sideboard (4 Circle of Flames). Both games I took 8 damage in turns 2 and/or turn 3.
Round 3: Abzan Midrange
2-0. First game, I had enough time to combo off even with their Rhino and Sorin in play. Second game, Opponent didn't get any lands, recovered from 1 despise, 2 thoughtseize.
Round 4: Mardu Midrange? (I think)
0-2. First game I got aggro'd out by Double Rabblemaster. Second game, had to mull to 5, double thoughtseize and 1 despise forced me to topdeck mode.
Round 5: Abzan Midrange (for the lulz)
0-2. First game, almost combo'd off, but Fizzled because of a miscount and missed trigger. Second game, opponent drops a turn 3 Rhino, Turn 4 Ajani Mentor, Turn 5 Elsepth.
The biggest problem I have is how fast aggro decks are, there is no room to breathe and you are starting 8 to 10 damage on Turns 2 and 3 (each). It's also somewhat hard to recover from Mulligans against decks with hand disruption. Midrange is the easiest match up I think(despite thoughtseize/despise). Jeskai, well I'm not sure about this, but I feel like I'm hoping that they don't curve out nicely, but better post board imo (I have swan songs and negates).
Mono Red is difficult because you can't block with your Wincon Carytid (Titan's and Cordinated/Rouse etc). So that hurts, but I will block/trade with a Mystic/Follower or try for the double retraction helix w/Follower.
SB you should have 4 Circle of Flame (well, you have to)
Vs Jeskai, yeah, tough one as they have counters/burn but we can sometimes get there with just comboing off. DO NOT HESITATE, GO FOR IT! Make them show it to you. If they are untapped, they might be on the end of turn burn you out plan and not the counter mana up plan. Plan accordingly! Swan songs are counter intutive, but you only need to counter their one spell.
If they are on the Rabble plan then you basically lose as that's too quick of a clock unless you combo off. Ie, don't wait!
Mulligans are very important. Keeping non-winning hands are bad, make them beat you otherwise our deck is pretty bad sometimes and it will beat us!
Keep the faith, GPLA had 2 decks that made Day 2 and I doubt there were many combo players in the entire field.
A few comments on the deck and card choices in it:
Dragon Mantle vs 0 Mana Artifacts
- 0 mana artifacts combo off with just one creature of any kind and a retraction helix/ascendancy
- Dragon Mantles allow card neutrality which is better for combo-ing off with protection up in the form of a counterspell for their disruption and for digging for the infinite combo
- The Dragon Mantle infinite combo requires an extra ascendancy/mana dude more than the 0 mana infinite combo making it less consistent to rely on.
I ran a 2-3 split of these with more artifacts than dragon mantles as it is more important for me to have access to the infinite combo without relying on a critical mass of creatures. I believe wholeheartedly that that mix is correct and/or there should be more of either of these pieces as they are both great for the deck.
Tormod's Crypt vs other artifacts
- I expected more reanimator strategies for the day making the Crypt a better meta call than other artifacts
- Crypt can be used to fuel delve in a pinch
- Crypt stops opponent's delve cards
I personally just like crypt better as a card and also feel like it has more potential to be useful than any other card that could fill that slot.
Defiant Strike:
I simply don't think that it is worth it to run excessive amounts of cantrips in this deck if you can't usually combo out before turns 4-5 anyway. If I were to increase the number of cantrips in the deck though, I would start with more dragon mantles as those double as combo pieces as well. The only reason to run defiant strike over dragon mantle is to fuel delve from the graveyard which is not as important as having an actual combo piece. Would you rather dig more or have a higher chance to "just have it" from the start?
Taigam's Scheming vs. Commune With the Gods
The best search card in the deck imo is Taigam's.
All the things that scheming does better or the same as Commune
- fuels delve
- doesn't let you randomly discard a kill condition like Commune With the Gods would
- Lets you keep more than one of the cards that you see
- Finds exactly what you need for the situation
- Available starting at turn 2, something that you don't find in delve cards
I am definitely moving up to 4 schemings in my list as it is just amazing. The only place where it falls short is it net-loses you a card when you play it whereas Commune keeps you neutral. Still sticking with 4 Communes as they are also simply excellent, but remember that Taigam's is probably better.
Dig Through Time vs Treasure Cruise
Dig is better in most situations as you are usually just looking for specific pieces of the combo. The only places where this is not true is when you are mid combo with exactly one mana available and you are just looking for more cards to get you more cards etc. and when you are trying to get more cards in hand for discard fodder.
Retraction Helix
Bad card on its own but amazing with this deck as it allows for the infinite combo. It also combo's well with dragon mantle for some extra digging potential. I would not consider playing less than 4 as it increases your win percentage by a ton.
Kiora's Follower vs Voyaging Satyr
I chose kiora's follower as it seemed better at the time. Over the course of the day it was relevant once where I wasn't able to cast it but I won that game anyway and it was relevant once where I could double retraction helix without ascendancy. Overall I think the follower is still better but some sort of a split is probably just as viable as well.
Altar of the Brood vs Other Win Conditions
I like altar of the brood as it is simply an instant win on the spot when you have the infinite combo unless they disrupt you. The main downsides are that you can't really win with it if you don't have the infinite combo and it is easily milled with commune. Other possibilities are Burning Anger which really can't be milled on accident and Crater's Claws as a way to use a lot of mana while not being useless outside of a combo situation. I don't like the Twinflame win as it seems unreliable vs simply a clogged board and it also requires a lot of non-caryatid creatures which is inconvenient.
Sideboard: I didn't like anything other than the Swan Songs and the burn spells out of the board and I feel like these cards could/should be replaced by better more useful things. I am currently thinking along the lines of Negate and Circle of Flame or maybe even try to fit in some extra card advantage engines.
I will probably be posting a match-by-match analysis of the 5k with sideboard decisions included and an updated manabase as I didn't really like how the mana felt. Hope this helps some of you and please comment if you disagree with any of this
At the point where I have infinite bounce available, I have infinite mana available which means that twinflame might as well be a card that can be hit by Commune(burning anger) or a card that is relevant outside of the combo(crater's claws).
Also thanks but I keep kicking myself over that round 7 slur of misplays. I should have top eight-ed the event easily.
Satyr Wayfinder was horrible for me as even though it fuels delve, it is guaranteed to hit the least powerful card in the deck, a land. It also just offers extra ways to accidentally mill your win con which I don't like. I think that I will cut both but I don't know exactly what to do with those slots. Right now I have been thinking that the 4th Taigam's Scheming is probably a must and that another win con in the deck as insurance for when it is milled would be nice. Other options include another land (not likely) another mana dork like Voyaging Satyr, or the third Treasure Cruise. I have no idea which option is better for this slot as of now but I will be testing all of those ideas out and any recommendations are welcome. As for the sideboard, by far the best card was Swan Song. I never transformed at all after testing a few games with the transformational sideboard. I tried boarding the 1 xenagos in for an attrition matchup but it was not useful at all. I am changing all 6 of those slots for something like 2 Negate and some number of Nyx-Fleece Ram and/or Circle of Flame. I would even consider something like Devouring Light if it weren't so heavy on the mana. A lot of the time I was struggling to hit just 1 white for ascendancy and we don't have access to white creatures to convoke with. Another option for changing the sideboard that I have been considering is just boarding into a lot of planeswalkers. Like, 3 Kiora, the Crashing Wave, 2 Xenagos, the Reveler, and possibly some number of Chandra, Pyromaster or Elspeth, Sun's Champion. I would not even be afraid of running an Ajani, Mentor of Heros in the sideboard. there are a lot of possibilities here and I have no idea which one is correct. Neither does anybody else though... That is one of the things that is making this deck such a pain to work with, there aren't really any clearly good sideboard strategies yet. All I know is that the sideboard that I ran on saturday was mostly incorrect as the whole creature package was just bad against everything. Even if you argue that against aggro it can close things out, it is still just worse than siding burn in.
Altar of the Brood is great. I put 2 in my MB just in Case I mill it with Commune. It's also a great Turn 1 play. Every land, Dork, artifact, enchantmet you drop from there on out mills your opponent, potentially disrupting their game. Even better when you fetch! You mill 2 in 1 Turn!
I've had many instances when my opponent would say "I would have had lethal if that [card] wasn't milled".
I am thinking that the mainboard changes that I will make for this weekend will be -2 Satyr Wayfinder for +1 Taigam's Scheming and +1Bow of Nylea though I am still debating between bow and an extra Altar of the Brood and -1 Temple of plenty, -1Temple of Abandon for +1 Temple of Mystery and +1 Frontier Bivouac as I was always low on blue and found that hitting 2 white was horrible for the deck. Also in terms of Swan Song vs Stubborn Denial I don't think that we will ever care about the random token on their side and it can be useful on our side while stubborn denial is only live when we are mid-combo. I still just think that my sideboard will be strictly anti-aggro/hate and will probably be cutting the transformational section for some number of Negate, Magma Spray, and/or Nyx-Fleece Ram.
@narex I cried watching you live on stream when you didn't just draw your whole deck with dragon mantle. Good job on the finish though.
Taigam's scheming might be good enough to warrant a full playset. Its a cabal ritual that lets you stack your deck.
Six delve spells seems like the right number. dig is of course better than cruise.
More than 1 altar will dilute the deck. If you mill your altar it just means you can't easy mode once you have the combo. You should almost always be able to win the turn of or the turn after you combo even if you mill your altar. You just have to work for it.
4 0 mana artifacts is the way to go. Tormod's crypt seems very smart, briber's purse > cornucopia.
Dragon mantle isn't necessary, I'm playing one of them as a fun of but will likely cut it for another scheming.
While tian's finish was great his list was not optimal.
The sideboard in this deck is all messed up, to me it seems like its just 3(4) swan songs and 12 other cards. Maybe a walkers plan could work. We need to be able to beat bile blight, downfall, and anger. Maybe big knuucks, xenagos, and kiora could work.
The control matchup is hilarious, we can go long against them just fine, we have 6 huge draw spells to their 4/5. We have ludicrous deck velocity. They have 26/7 lands to gum up their hands. I've won some games by beating with dorks and then when they try to flash in a pearl lake ancient with counter backup I combo off with a swan song.
Dragon Mantle is not worth it. The easiest and most reliable win is not mana dorks, Dragon Mantle, Twinflame, and the sort. Altar of the Brood with 0 mana artifacts allows for turn 3 kills, and require less set up.
You do not need mana dorks to win if you do not plan to use Dragon Mantle. Bassara Tower Archer has proven to me to improve the consistency of the deck.
Please note that my findings may are to be taken as a whole. For example, if you do want to run dragon mantle instead of or in addition to a 0 mana artifact, then the value of Commune with the Gods goes up. If you want to run Twinflame then the value of the 3rd mana dork goes up in comparison to Bassara Tower Archer. If you run more mana dorks then Dig Through Time is just as easy to cast as Treasure Cruise.
On the topic of Dragon Mantle I like it as it looks at 2 cards for 0 mana when searching for the final combo piece while not being dead mid- or pre- combo. I don't run mantle because it can infinite combo, I run it because it is good pre-infinite combo. Also, with more digging potential, you don't need to have as many 0mana artifacts. I don't think that the direction that bigtigersmith is going is correct for the deck especially with the fact that cutting Commune with the Gods makes your delve worse. As for adding Stubborn Denial to supplement the Swan Song package, I find that I rarely even want to board up to the 4th copy of it, let alone consider the possibility of adding more, so I would not want to add denials to our swan songs. The inclusion of Bassara Tower Archer, it seems ok when you cut things like commune but there are a few reasons why it really just doesn't work for me: 1) double green. Most games I done want/have more than the one green that I need for a mana dork and relying on two is just absurd in this deck. 2)Doesn't produce mana. Similarly to Satyr Wayfinder, I don't like running creatures that don't produce mana; they feel like they do nothing most of the time. 3) it dilutes your deck. I would rather just play a spell to trigger ascendancy as it would just be miserable to draw this mid-combo rather than, for example, a Dragon Mantle or a delve spell.
On the topic of Dragon Mantle I like it as it looks at 2 cards for 0 mana when searching for the final combo piece while not being dead mid- or pre- combo. I don't run mantle because it can infinite combo, I run it because it is good pre-infinite combo. Also, with more digging potential, you don't need to have as many 0mana artifacts. I don't think that the direction that bigtigersmith is going is correct for the deck especially with the fact that cutting Commune with the Gods makes your delve worse. As for adding Stubborn Denial to supplement the Swan Song package, I find that I rarely even want to board up to the 4th copy of it, let alone consider the possibility of adding more, so I would not want to add denials to our swan songs. The inclusion of Bassara Tower Archer, it seems ok when you cut things like commune but there are a few reasons why it really just doesn't work for me: 1) double green. Most games I done want/have more than the one green that I need for a mana dork and relying on two is just absurd in this deck. 2)Doesn't produce mana. Similarly to Satyr Wayfinder, I don't like running creatures that don't produce mana; they feel like they do nothing most of the time. 3) it dilutes your deck. I would rather just play a spell to trigger ascendancy as it would just be miserable to draw this mid-combo rather than, for example, a Dragon Mantle or a delve spell.
I don't think of this deck as a 'storm' deck where you cast a bunch of cantrips and dig to your finisher, where drawing a creature 'mid combo' would be bad. I think of this deck as a normal combo deck where you assemble all the pieces and win on the spot. That is why I don't like Dragon Mantle. Playing dragon mantle over a 0 mana artifact lowers your consistency. It requires more pieces to kill with a dragon mantle, and you would be cutting copies of a combo piece. Playing Dragon Mantle over a real draw spell also will lower you consistency. The combo of the deck is ANY creature, Helix, Ascendancy, 0 mana artifact. The archer is certainly capable of winning the game, and is more resilient than voyaging satyr, kiora's follower, or satyr wayfinder. When you don't rely on 'storming' you don't need mana dorks and can play a more consistent/resilient deck.
I can agree that without Commune with the Gods, the delve aspect of the deck is slightly reduced. I think i would still prefer consistency to power, and play tormenting voice over commune and not mill combo pieces.
Anyway, I do agree that them being able to possibly burn you out before they draw is an issue with altar as the wincon. However I'm not too worried about it for two reasons: One, it's only a concern against burn and Two it's unlikely that they will have the mana to burn you out twice(possible, but unlikely because if you're going off fast enough like the deck wants to they have 4 lands tops) so you can just main board a single counter spell and then loot through your library til it's in hand and pass with mana dorks untapped. Not an end all to the "they could burn you on upkeep" argument, but it makes it less of an issue.
"Whenever you cast a noncreature spell, you may pay 1. If you do, put a 1/1 red Goblin creature token with haste onto the battlefield."
Crisis averted.
| Omnath | Zada | Alesha | Scion |
| Mazirek | Animar |
Modern
UR Storm RU
UBRG Dredge GRBU
Standard
UR Thermo-Thing RU
He runs 2 Bribers Purse, is that enough? And can Nissa be cut? It seems SO much easier to explain to people the 'deck' you combo vs going forever to do the Nissa Trample you combo (or is Nissa just that much better?) We also have 22 land, can one of them be cut and with less land, cut Nissa?
Also Taigma's Scheming is bad, but DIG IS SOOO GOOD!
This deck tries to win too quickly, quickly enough to the point to where you don't want to draw multiple Digs early before comboing. Tormenting Voice is meant to be an easier to cast draw spell that synergizes well with Dig.
Nissa functions as:
- A 5th Caryatid most of the time
- A mana dork that has haste / triggers Ascendancy when cast
- An alternate wincon
Regardless when you combo you can just Twinflame into a million guys, bounce their stuff away and kill them the same without Nissa.
I would imagine that the more 0-mana artifacts would make the non-Dragon Mantle version faster, but the Dragon Mantles would improve consistency.
Thoughts?
http://www.gatheringmagic.com/adriennereynolds-101714-whats-in-a-name-lee-shi-tian-and-the-umbrella-revolution/
I went 4-1 at FNM, but I'm not sure I'll play the deck again. What follows is a brief report, some comments, and then my feelings on the deck.
Round 1: 2-1 against WRB midrange. We went to time game three. He misplayed a fetch which cost him game 2, but only after I misplayed a combat phase helix. Deicide hurts. Possibly more than targeted removal. But Thoughtseize is an absolute house against us.
Round 2: 0-2. G/W aggro. Neither game was even close. Bad mulligan choices game 1; drew only SB cards game 2.
Round 3: 2-1, RDW. Circle of flame makes goblins cry. That is all.
Round 4: 2-1 against Jeskai Tempo. I feared Deicide or counter spells. Tapping out for Mantis Rider was the window I needed.
Round 5: technically an intentional draw, but we played for fun and I won 2-1. G/R devotion.
Match 1 & 5 emphasized the importance of understanding Triggers and the Stack. This deck is super easy to mess up, forget triggers, or otherwise shoot yourself in the foot. [italics]My understanding[/italics] is that Ascendancy triggers occur when the spell is cast- not resolved. You get triggers before passing priority. My opponent allows Ascendancy to resolve and then [italics]before I pass priority[/italics] I cast a spell. He responds with Deicide, but I will still get to loot and untap.
In hindsight, I may have cheated match 5. I had two Sylvan Caryatid and a summoning sick Rattleclaw Mystic and was desperately seeking a Twinflame so I could, you know, attack with something. With three Ascendancies in play, Rattleclaw was arbitrarily large, Twinflame resolves, leaving a 2/1 hastey copy. Again, before passing priority after resolution of Twinflame, I cast Briber's Purse. My opponent responded with Lightning Strike on the token. I would get the three triggers, but they would go on the stack before the strike, meaning my copy should have died. At the time I insisted I would get the triggers first, thus making my copy a 5/4 (3 uptap +1/+1 triggers from 3 Ascendancy), meaning it would survive the removal. Thankfully, that game was for fun. Or am I wrong with how the triggers would stack/resolve?
How bonkers would this deck be with 1 more cantrip? Serum Visions or Sleight of Hand, or my absolute dream- Gitaxian Probe! With that said, I do wonder if Tormenting Voice really does need to find a spot here. Turn 2 dork gives you 4 mana turn 3. Another dork AND... ?? Divination costs 3. Voice fits perfectly here, although I do wish you drew first and then discarded. Definitely a couple games I cast Dragon Mantle and/or Strike on my opponents' creatures just to draw (obv I didn't have a dork yet). Pitching something to draw 2 seems better.
In my very limited experience, by far the MVP out of the SB was Circle of Flame and Swan Song. Not even sure the other 7 cards matter.
Keeping track of +1/+1, +1/+0 from Strikes, in addition to floating mana and remembering all the Ascendancy triggers can be an absolute pain. I know I took too long some matches, and I also know I forgot to actually resolve some spells (doing the loot/untap triggers but then not drawing a card from Strike or even once forgetting to actually Dig Through Time). Multiple Ascendacies compound this, needing to remember exactly how much mana you can float and remembering to do so in-between triggers resolving. Whether it's dice, paper, or something else, it requires either lots of time, or trust from your opponent.
But that's not why I'm thinking of selling/trading the parts away. I thought this deck would play like classic Vintage Storm. It plays much more like Modern Eggs. It's the kind of deck you feel dirty playing and apologize to opponents after beating them. It's magic solitaire at its worst. Infinite combos are fine (and fun!), but IMHO they need to win on the spot. Yes, any opponent can concede if they don't want to wait. But knowing it CAN fizzle, it just makes the match somehow unfriendly. I'm not calling for a ban; just my thoughts after one night of play.
The Soup
A playset of Dragon Mantle in the deck is a must IMO.
It is the only true cantrip card this standard version of the deck has, and the deck cannot afford losing too many cards in the hand since you need extra cards to consistently loot to find whatever win cards and make other cards work (Dig Through Time, Treasure Cruise).
Those 0-mana artifacts are there just to finish the combo off.
If you are going to run an artifact, absolutely do not ever run Astral Cornucopia. Briber's Purse is at least useful pre-combo, but Astral Cornucopia is a completely dead card unless you've already won the game.
Also if you don't run a playset of Dragon Mantle, you're asking to lose.
| Omnath | Zada | Alesha | Scion |
| Mazirek | Animar |
Modern
UR Storm RU
UBRG Dredge GRBU
Standard
UR Thermo-Thing RU
I'm going to gameday tomorrow (today technically) and I am using the 0-cmc artifacts/CFB version. I USED to have the Dragon Mantle Version, though. Will try to post some results later.
Standard
UR Control
Modern
Merfolk
Burn
Avacyn did nothing wrong!
Purify Innistrad!
#Purge
I was actually 5-0 at Game day. The deck performed perfectly even through disruption.
But in the Top 8, I let the deck down. I promised I WOULD GO FOR IT! And I didn't I was playing against control and our deck can 'go long' vs control (believe it or not). I had him without counters and Ascendency in hand and I should've played it for the win (waiting doesn't help). My mistake!
Also for sideboard, our deck can sideboard like a real deck. We don't need to betray Umbrella Revolution by adding in creatures like Knuckleblade. I sideboarded in 3 Swan Song and 3 Thoughtsieze (!) and it helped and shocked opponents. What to take out? Tormenting Voice/Dragon Mantle, maybe 1 guy etc. Never cut Commune, Dig, Taigma, Helix.
I am running ;
4 Dig, 1 Taigma, 4 Commune, 11 Mana dudes (Follower is better than Mystic as you can Helix repeatedly), no Nissa (too slow), 4 Dragon Mantle (game one only), 4 Purse, 1 Altar, 1 Twinflame, 4 Helix, etc.
There is only 2 wincons (Altar/Twinflame) and that's all you need. Nissa is a 1 of and I cut her to the sideboard (never needed her).
The way to play the deck, they are AFRAID of us. They keep mana up and waste turns not playing their own threats (they have to), and that can buy time. You use Commune/Taigma to fuel big Digs. Running less than 4 is a mistake as it's the best card in the deck. Because you're not trying to go 'ridiculous' you just need 1 mana guy, 1 helix, 1 purse, 1 ascendency. All doable.
The only problem is if you Commune and discard your Altar! It happens and you can also mill your Twinflame so don't get super greedy with Commune. That's why Taigma helps. Might even run more as it protects vs Thoughtsieze.
And you don't 'fizzle' with the deck, you go off with combo in hand not 'trying to get there with random cantrips/spells'. Get your combo, then put it down.
Also the deck plays VERY fast the more you play it and if your opponent knows what's happening That's why I like Altar, even the most out of of opponent knew what happens.
First, I was always worried about getting Red Mana. Turns out, you get enough (and only need 1 or 2 at the most).
My results are:
Round 1: Jeskai Tempo
0-2. Almost combo'd off on second game. It is hard to get out of burn reach. I was able to hold back riders but Charm and combination of burns just got me.
Round 2: Mono Red Aggro
0-2. Way too fast, even post sideboard (4 Circle of Flames). Both games I took 8 damage in turns 2 and/or turn 3.
Round 3: Abzan Midrange
2-0. First game, I had enough time to combo off even with their Rhino and Sorin in play. Second game, Opponent didn't get any lands, recovered from 1 despise, 2 thoughtseize.
Round 4: Mardu Midrange? (I think)
0-2. First game I got aggro'd out by Double Rabblemaster. Second game, had to mull to 5, double thoughtseize and 1 despise forced me to topdeck mode.
Round 5: Abzan Midrange (for the lulz)
0-2. First game, almost combo'd off, but Fizzled because of a miscount and missed trigger. Second game, opponent drops a turn 3 Rhino, Turn 4 Ajani Mentor, Turn 5 Elsepth.
The biggest problem I have is how fast aggro decks are, there is no room to breathe and you are starting 8 to 10 damage on Turns 2 and 3 (each). It's also somewhat hard to recover from Mulligans against decks with hand disruption. Midrange is the easiest match up I think(despite thoughtseize/despise). Jeskai, well I'm not sure about this, but I feel like I'm hoping that they don't curve out nicely, but better post board imo (I have swan songs and negates).
Standard
UR Control
Modern
Merfolk
Burn
Avacyn did nothing wrong!
Purify Innistrad!
#Purge
SB you should have 4 Circle of Flame (well, you have to)
Vs Jeskai, yeah, tough one as they have counters/burn but we can sometimes get there with just comboing off. DO NOT HESITATE, GO FOR IT! Make them show it to you. If they are untapped, they might be on the end of turn burn you out plan and not the counter mana up plan. Plan accordingly! Swan songs are counter intutive, but you only need to counter their one spell.
If they are on the Rabble plan then you basically lose as that's too quick of a clock unless you combo off. Ie, don't wait!
Mulligans are very important. Keeping non-winning hands are bad, make them beat you otherwise our deck is pretty bad sometimes and it will beat us!
Keep the faith, GPLA had 2 decks that made Day 2 and I doubt there were many combo players in the entire field.
A few comments on the deck and card choices in it:
Dragon Mantle vs 0 Mana Artifacts
- 0 mana artifacts combo off with just one creature of any kind and a retraction helix/ascendancy
- Dragon Mantles allow card neutrality which is better for combo-ing off with protection up in the form of a counterspell for their disruption and for digging for the infinite combo
- The Dragon Mantle infinite combo requires an extra ascendancy/mana dude more than the 0 mana infinite combo making it less consistent to rely on.
I ran a 2-3 split of these with more artifacts than dragon mantles as it is more important for me to have access to the infinite combo without relying on a critical mass of creatures. I believe wholeheartedly that that mix is correct and/or there should be more of either of these pieces as they are both great for the deck.
Tormod's Crypt vs other artifacts
- I expected more reanimator strategies for the day making the Crypt a better meta call than other artifacts
- Crypt can be used to fuel delve in a pinch
- Crypt stops opponent's delve cards
I personally just like crypt better as a card and also feel like it has more potential to be useful than any other card that could fill that slot.
Defiant Strike:
I simply don't think that it is worth it to run excessive amounts of cantrips in this deck if you can't usually combo out before turns 4-5 anyway. If I were to increase the number of cantrips in the deck though, I would start with more dragon mantles as those double as combo pieces as well. The only reason to run defiant strike over dragon mantle is to fuel delve from the graveyard which is not as important as having an actual combo piece. Would you rather dig more or have a higher chance to "just have it" from the start?
Taigam's Scheming vs. Commune With the Gods
The best search card in the deck imo is Taigam's.
All the things that scheming does better or the same as Commune
- fuels delve
- doesn't let you randomly discard a kill condition like Commune With the Gods would
- Lets you keep more than one of the cards that you see
- Finds exactly what you need for the situation
- Available starting at turn 2, something that you don't find in delve cards
I am definitely moving up to 4 schemings in my list as it is just amazing. The only place where it falls short is it net-loses you a card when you play it whereas Commune keeps you neutral. Still sticking with 4 Communes as they are also simply excellent, but remember that Taigam's is probably better.
Dig Through Time vs Treasure Cruise
Dig is better in most situations as you are usually just looking for specific pieces of the combo. The only places where this is not true is when you are mid combo with exactly one mana available and you are just looking for more cards to get you more cards etc. and when you are trying to get more cards in hand for discard fodder.
Retraction Helix
Bad card on its own but amazing with this deck as it allows for the infinite combo. It also combo's well with dragon mantle for some extra digging potential. I would not consider playing less than 4 as it increases your win percentage by a ton.
Kiora's Follower vs Voyaging Satyr
I chose kiora's follower as it seemed better at the time. Over the course of the day it was relevant once where I wasn't able to cast it but I won that game anyway and it was relevant once where I could double retraction helix without ascendancy. Overall I think the follower is still better but some sort of a split is probably just as viable as well.
Altar of the Brood vs Other Win Conditions
I like altar of the brood as it is simply an instant win on the spot when you have the infinite combo unless they disrupt you. The main downsides are that you can't really win with it if you don't have the infinite combo and it is easily milled with commune. Other possibilities are Burning Anger which really can't be milled on accident and Crater's Claws as a way to use a lot of mana while not being useless outside of a combo situation. I don't like the Twinflame win as it seems unreliable vs simply a clogged board and it also requires a lot of non-caryatid creatures which is inconvenient.
Sideboard: I didn't like anything other than the Swan Songs and the burn spells out of the board and I feel like these cards could/should be replaced by better more useful things. I am currently thinking along the lines of Negate and Circle of Flame or maybe even try to fit in some extra card advantage engines.
I will probably be posting a match-by-match analysis of the 5k with sideboard decisions included and an updated manabase as I didn't really like how the mana felt. Hope this helps some of you and please comment if you disagree with any of this
Good job on the finish
Also thanks but I keep kicking myself over that round 7 slur of misplays. I should have top eight-ed the event easily.
I've had many instances when my opponent would say "I would have had lethal if that [card] wasn't milled".
Standard
UR Control
Modern
Merfolk
Burn
Avacyn did nothing wrong!
Purify Innistrad!
#Purge
Taigam's scheming might be good enough to warrant a full playset. Its a cabal ritual that lets you stack your deck.
Six delve spells seems like the right number. dig is of course better than cruise.
More than 1 altar will dilute the deck. If you mill your altar it just means you can't easy mode once you have the combo. You should almost always be able to win the turn of or the turn after you combo even if you mill your altar. You just have to work for it.
4 0 mana artifacts is the way to go. Tormod's crypt seems very smart, briber's purse > cornucopia.
Dragon mantle isn't necessary, I'm playing one of them as a fun of but will likely cut it for another scheming.
While tian's finish was great his list was not optimal.
The sideboard in this deck is all messed up, to me it seems like its just 3(4) swan songs and 12 other cards. Maybe a walkers plan could work. We need to be able to beat bile blight, downfall, and anger. Maybe big knuucks, xenagos, and kiora could work.
The control matchup is hilarious, we can go long against them just fine, we have 6 huge draw spells to their 4/5. We have ludicrous deck velocity. They have 26/7 lands to gum up their hands. I've won some games by beating with dorks and then when they try to flash in a pearl lake ancient with counter backup I combo off with a swan song.
4 Retraction Helix
4 Briber's Purse
1 Altar of the Brood
1 Swan Song
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Bassara Tower Archer
2 Tormenting Voice
3 Dig Through Time
3 Treasure Cruise
2 Yavimaya Coast
4 Mana Confluence
2 Frontier Bivouac
2 Flooded Strand
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Temple of Plenty
2 Temple of Mystery
2 Temple of Abandon
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Island
1 Forest
Please note that my findings may are to be taken as a whole. For example, if you do want to run dragon mantle instead of or in addition to a 0 mana artifact, then the value of Commune with the Gods goes up. If you want to run Twinflame then the value of the 3rd mana dork goes up in comparison to Bassara Tower Archer. If you run more mana dorks then Dig Through Time is just as easy to cast as Treasure Cruise.
I don't think of this deck as a 'storm' deck where you cast a bunch of cantrips and dig to your finisher, where drawing a creature 'mid combo' would be bad. I think of this deck as a normal combo deck where you assemble all the pieces and win on the spot. That is why I don't like Dragon Mantle. Playing dragon mantle over a 0 mana artifact lowers your consistency. It requires more pieces to kill with a dragon mantle, and you would be cutting copies of a combo piece. Playing Dragon Mantle over a real draw spell also will lower you consistency. The combo of the deck is ANY creature, Helix, Ascendancy, 0 mana artifact. The archer is certainly capable of winning the game, and is more resilient than voyaging satyr, kiora's follower, or satyr wayfinder. When you don't rely on 'storming' you don't need mana dorks and can play a more consistent/resilient deck.
I can agree that without Commune with the Gods, the delve aspect of the deck is slightly reduced. I think i would still prefer consistency to power, and play tormenting voice over commune and not mill combo pieces.