I've heard that mana burn is no longer around in the tournaments, is that true? Just asking because of an X CMC Mindswipe combo if that is at all possible. Yes, it would through any opponent off guard at first and may keep them from playing any spells at first thought, but it wouldn't really matter since you could still hit your opponent with the burn?
Mana burn was removed from the rules with the Magic 2010 Rules Update back in 2009, so no, it's not around in tournaments (or any other format) anymore. I'm not sure what you mean by "still hit your opponent with the burn," but if you are talking about casting Mindswipe at them without a spell to target, you can't do that. You have to have a legal target to play the spell, so you can't just use it as a Fireball, you actually have to be attempting to counter a spell that they cast.
Hammerhead has one largely irrelevant advantage and two big disadvantages compared to Dragon Mantle.
The advantage is that it can give you haste to go off a turn earlier. Sometimes. It's irrelevant if you've got the manaless artifact on board. Combo goes off with one creature. Generally, it's irrelevant to give this creature haste because it's already on board. If you need two creatures on board, it's a little better. However, the big disadvantages are (and these are really big) it does pretty much nothing if you aren't going off. Second, it doesn't draw a card. When we talk about the combo, we're thinking in terms of a 4 or 5 card combo (a single dork, Retraction Helix, Manaless Artifact, and Ascendancy or dork and x creature, Dragon Mantle, Retraction Helix and Ascendancy). This is false. It's not a 4-5 card combo. It's a 5-6 card combo. It's the combinations mentioned previously plus X card in hand. This can make hand disruption doubly effective. First, they take a combo card. Second, while our combo is resilient, the loss of a card can easily delay going off a turn or two depending on what cards are being run and what we've got in hand. Dragons Mantle helps alleviate this problem where Hammerhead does nothing.
I don't think I've ever wished for Birds of Paradise to be reprinted as badly as I do now. I've never gone off before turn 5, and that was only with goldfishing.
EDIT: I also hate that Taigam's Scheming doesn't replace itself if you don't have an Ascendancy, but I also hate that Commune can make you lose a crucial piece of the combo.
After some more testing, I'm pretty sure Tian's idea of a transformational sideboard is a pretty ineffective direction for this deck to head. I am playing around with a couple Bow of Nylea to bring in against Jeskai Tempo. Anyone got experience with that?
Just an idea, but can Return to the Ranks be a good sideboard against removal-heavy decks ala Jeskai Tempo and such?
While I have not tested this, I think there's two issues. First, it's not going to stop them from flying over or burning you out. Secondly, if they're sideboarding in Anger of the Gods, there won't be creatures to return.
In regards to Commune with the Gods, I think the ability to dig for important parts of the combo, feed delve (dig some more), and act as a cantrip of sorts when Jeskai is on the battlefield outweighs the chance of milling away parts of the combo (yes I've seen it happen, but I've also seen it pull a win out of nowhere several times). I use a single Restock to add a bit of redundancy with Commune with the Gods. Granted, sometimes you just can't complete the combo.
Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise are definitely fantastic card draw, but I noticed that it puts a lot of pressure to have an early commune or scheming. I'll have to test out Tormenting Voice.
Sideboard is still kind of all over the place. I'm skeptical of transformative sideboards because it seems at best you have an Temur midrange deck and at worst, you have a deck that doesn't know what it's trying to do.
White has a couple of decent enchantments and sorcery. Chained to the Rocks might be workable with fetchlands. Banishing Light as a more expensive catch-all. Glare of Heresy might actually be really good in a white splashed meta (Sorin, Rhinos, Mantis, etc.)
Twinflame
Pros: Already in most lists, only costs 2 mana (5 if you want to strive), doesn't take up an extra slot.
Cons: Caryatid still can't attack, can be milled out by Commune with the Gods.
Burning Anger
Pros: Commune digs for it, makes Caryatid lethal, gets past Sagu Mauler.
Cons: 5 mana, easy to remove with Erase.
Goblinslide
Pros: With Helix + Mantle you can create infinite huge goblins, can be dug for with Commune.
Cons: Easy to remove with Erase, useless before you go off.
Nissa, Worldwaker
Pros: Useful before going off, while going off she creates another mana dork, Lee Shi Tian used it.
Cons: 5 mana, can be milled out by Commune, Hero's Downfall bait.
Harness by Force
Pros: Hilarious.
Cons: Outclassed by Twinflame to a ridiculous degree, useless until you've gone off, can be milled out by Commune. Don't play this card.
Evanescent Intellect
Pros: Can be dug for by Commune, gets past Sagu Mauler.
Cons: Requires multiple Ascendancies out, useless pre-combo, easy to remove with Erase.
Crater's Claws
Pros: Can be used as removal before going off, gets past Sagu Mauler.
Cons: Can be milled away with Commune, unlike its modern counterpart Banefire it can be countered/fogged.
I am guessing your reference to sagu mauler is 'hexproof blocker' another thing to worry about on that front I would think without a bribers purse at least would be animated land blockers for the deck?
Outside of that for the Altar and non-damage (or non-single damage) wincon's, avoids deflecting palm/fog effects as well. At least I believe Deflecting Palm doesn't actually target the source, it's kind of an odd mechanic that get's around protection so I would assume it get's around hexproof as well.
I think something else to consider with Burning Anger as a con is that depending on how your deck is constructed, you may be forced to pick it over an Ascendancy.
Just an idea, but can Return to the Ranks be a good sideboard against removal-heavy decks ala Jeskai Tempo and such?
While I have not tested this, I think there's two issues. First, it's not going to stop them from flying over or burning you out. Secondly, if they're sideboarding in Anger of the Gods, there won't be creatures to return.
It is not about stopping opponent's creatures but more of returning multiple combo pieces i.e. dorks that died or were Commune'd and not picked up in one shot. And for Anger of the Gods, I'm quite sure it is not as popular as a mainboard at this moment so it should be answered by sideboarding Swan Songs most of the time.
I am guessing your reference to sagu mauler is 'hexproof blocker' another thing to worry about on that front I would think without a bribers purse at least would be animated land blockers for the deck?
Outside of that for the Altar and non-damage (or non-single damage) wincon's, avoids deflecting palm/fog effects as well. At least I believe Deflecting Palm doesn't actually target the source, it's kind of an odd mechanic that get's around protection so I would assume it get's around hexproof as well.
Yeah, it and rival Caryatids are the only really viable hexproof creatures in this format. Animated lands are rarely a problem, but Nissa is so widespread that it's a problem we have to consider. Deflecting Palm, on the other hand, is almost never going to be an issue. Jeskai Tempo doesn't play it. Mardu aggro doesn't play it. Naya midrange doesn't play it. It's a terrible card in most scenarios, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.
This is the main reason I prefer Goblinslide. It gets around any and all blockers and is immune to the rogue Deflecting Palm (use your Helix-ed dork to bounce your goblin before damage).
Unless you are playing "Goblin Slide" the pump is irreverent because you got it with your Ascendancy.
I am thinking
+1 Alter
+2 Astral C
+2 Bribers Purse
You can enable a turn 3 win pretty easy. as well as 1 single Dork (IE: Caryatid) you can go off with out fear of kill spells.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Kekule_the_Magician on the inclusion of Devouring Light in a TurboFog Deck:
Quote from Kekule_the_Magician »
As a person who typically plays very creature oriented decks, I HATE when an opponent has Devouring Light. It is infuriating to finally get through with a creature on to have it exiled.
I've come to hate White in general now because it gets everything to the point where it is almost unfair. White has boardwipes (Wrath of God, End Hostilities), targeted exile and removal (Devouring Light, Banishing Light, Last Breath), lifegain spells, lifelink, low cost/high power enchantments and auras, flying creatures; my goodness what don't they get!?
Hey folks, I was thinking of pick up this deck but don't know which is better between Tian's version or the Channel Fireball team one, they seem pretty different.
"Harness by Force
Pros: Hilarious.
Cons: Outclassed by Twinflame to a ridiculous degree, useless until you've gone off, can be milled out by Commune. Don't play this card."
that is hilarious......I want to do it once =D
and for the record i've done better with a draw version than a dig version...mostly cause i keep chucking my combo pieces or don't have the ability to dig through time at crucial times. I don't know.... i guess i just had good luck while running card draw
if purphorous then you'll replace the purse/astral with ornihopter.
You can't replace those with Ornithopter because he won't cause untapping.
Also, there's something to be aware of- Caryatid is not completely invulnerable. There's a lot of Abzan decks that run Caryatid and Bileblight. They can target their own Caryatid to kill ours.
gxmiter,
Yeah, it and rival Caryatids are the only really viable hexproof creatures in this format. Animated lands are rarely a problem, but Nissa is so widespread that it's a problem we have to consider. Deflecting Palm, on the other hand, is almost never going to be an issue. Jeskai Tempo doesn't play it. Mardu aggro doesn't play it. Naya midrange doesn't play it. It's a terrible card in most scenarios, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.
This is the main reason I prefer Goblinslide. It gets around any and all blockers and is immune to the rogue Deflecting Palm (use your Helix-ed dork to bounce your goblin before damage).
I realize Deflecting Palm isn't super popular right now in the temp decks, but it's very good in the mirror, so it will be very meta dependent I would guess.
I do like goblinslide, though I haven't fully tested/goldfished with it, can you kill with a bunch of 1/1's, or would most of them be large enough a deflect would cause a draw?
Deflecting Palm causes a win with Goblinslide. After your opponent chooses which goblin they'll prevent the damage of, use Helix to "bounce" it. It won't deal any damage, Deflecting Palm won't prevent anything, your opponent will die.
The goblins will all be huge thanks to Ascendancy, and you can even go infinite with it after you draw your whole deck with Dragon Mantle.
I would like to mention to people considering the giant creature options for this deck that you can not stop Deflecting Palm with Retraction Helix or (insert removal here). From the Gatherer:
Once a spell begins to resolve, no one can do anything until the spell finishes resolving. Therefore you can not respond to the declaration of what source Deflecting Palm is preventing.
To gxmiter: I prefer the Altar of the Brood route for the combo, but that aside you should add to your pros and cons analysis that it costs 1. In a pinch, that allows you to untap your creatures and loot again and generate an extra mana. This can be relevant. I had it matter twice the night I took this to FNM and wouldn't doubt it happening again tomorrow night.
The problem with altar as a wincon is, and it came up in the pt, they get to untap before they lose. In the case of burn/jeskai, this potentially means firing off lethal before a draw step.
The problem with altar as a wincon is, and it came up in the pt, they get to untap before they lose. In the case of burn/jeskai, this potentially means firing off lethal before a draw step.
If your playing against jeskai though you can just bounce all their creatures and attack for a lot with your mana dudes though. Just wondering (unless it was just someone mentioning it and not an actual game situation) I am not sure how Jeskai would stop your attack on a hexproof dude after you bounce any creatures they have out.
Didn't think about bouncing our own dude with helix, so that solves that part of the problem anyway. On a side note with slide then, what win condition would you run that would give your tokens haste to win that turn that wouldn't also provide another wincon?
Mana burn was removed from the rules with the Magic 2010 Rules Update back in 2009, so no, it's not around in tournaments (or any other format) anymore. I'm not sure what you mean by "still hit your opponent with the burn," but if you are talking about casting Mindswipe at them without a spell to target, you can't do that. You have to have a legal target to play the spell, so you can't just use it as a Fireball, you actually have to be attempting to counter a spell that they cast.
The advantage is that it can give you haste to go off a turn earlier. Sometimes. It's irrelevant if you've got the manaless artifact on board. Combo goes off with one creature. Generally, it's irrelevant to give this creature haste because it's already on board. If you need two creatures on board, it's a little better. However, the big disadvantages are (and these are really big) it does pretty much nothing if you aren't going off. Second, it doesn't draw a card. When we talk about the combo, we're thinking in terms of a 4 or 5 card combo (a single dork, Retraction Helix, Manaless Artifact, and Ascendancy or dork and x creature, Dragon Mantle, Retraction Helix and Ascendancy). This is false. It's not a 4-5 card combo. It's a 5-6 card combo. It's the combinations mentioned previously plus X card in hand. This can make hand disruption doubly effective. First, they take a combo card. Second, while our combo is resilient, the loss of a card can easily delay going off a turn or two depending on what cards are being run and what we've got in hand. Dragons Mantle helps alleviate this problem where Hammerhead does nothing.
EDIT: I also hate that Taigam's Scheming doesn't replace itself if you don't have an Ascendancy, but I also hate that Commune can make you lose a crucial piece of the combo.
| Omnath | Zada | Alesha | Scion |
| Mazirek | Animar |
Modern
UR Storm RU
UBRG Dredge GRBU
Standard
UR Thermo-Thing RU
While I have not tested this, I think there's two issues. First, it's not going to stop them from flying over or burning you out. Secondly, if they're sideboarding in Anger of the Gods, there won't be creatures to return.
In regards to Commune with the Gods, I think the ability to dig for important parts of the combo, feed delve (dig some more), and act as a cantrip of sorts when Jeskai is on the battlefield outweighs the chance of milling away parts of the combo (yes I've seen it happen, but I've also seen it pull a win out of nowhere several times). I use a single Restock to add a bit of redundancy with Commune with the Gods. Granted, sometimes you just can't complete the combo.
Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise are definitely fantastic card draw, but I noticed that it puts a lot of pressure to have an early commune or scheming. I'll have to test out Tormenting Voice.
Sideboard is still kind of all over the place. I'm skeptical of transformative sideboards because it seems at best you have an Temur midrange deck and at worst, you have a deck that doesn't know what it's trying to do.
White has a couple of decent enchantments and sorcery.
Chained to the Rocks might be workable with fetchlands. Banishing Light as a more expensive catch-all. Glare of Heresy might actually be really good in a white splashed meta (Sorin, Rhinos, Mantis, etc.)
Blue has several counters. Swan Song, Disdainful Stroke, Stubborn Denial, and Gainsay are the usual suspects. I do wonder if Singing Bell Strike could at least slow down aggro decks (you can search for it via Commune). It also has Aetherspouts and Crippling Chill
Green has Bow of Nylea and Hornet Nest. Bow is a sort of swiss-army knife, while the Nest slows down big beaters. And anti-air...
Red seems to have mostly burn (Magma Spray, Magma Jet, Lightning Strike, Stoke the Flames), Circle of Flame and possibly Harness by Force (if you're looking for a memorable way to win with just Caryatids- honestly if you have the combo out, there's probably better ways to do this)
Twinflame
Pros: Already in most lists, only costs 2 mana (5 if you want to strive), doesn't take up an extra slot.
Cons: Caryatid still can't attack, can be milled out by Commune with the Gods.
Burning Anger
Pros: Commune digs for it, makes Caryatid lethal, gets past Sagu Mauler.
Cons: 5 mana, easy to remove with Erase.
Goblinslide
Pros: With Helix + Mantle you can create infinite huge goblins, can be dug for with Commune.
Cons: Easy to remove with Erase, useless before you go off.
Nissa, Worldwaker
Pros: Useful before going off, while going off she creates another mana dork, Lee Shi Tian used it.
Cons: 5 mana, can be milled out by Commune, Hero's Downfall bait.
Harness by Force
Pros: Hilarious.
Cons: Outclassed by Twinflame to a ridiculous degree, useless until you've gone off, can be milled out by Commune. Don't play this card.
Evanescent Intellect
Pros: Can be dug for by Commune, gets past Sagu Mauler.
Cons: Requires multiple Ascendancies out, useless pre-combo, easy to remove with Erase.
Crater's Claws
Pros: Can be used as removal before going off, gets past Sagu Mauler.
Cons: Can be milled away with Commune, unlike its modern counterpart Banefire it can be countered/fogged.
Altar of the Brood
Pros: Gets past Sagu Mauler
Cons: Everything else about it.
| Omnath | Zada | Alesha | Scion |
| Mazirek | Animar |
Modern
UR Storm RU
UBRG Dredge GRBU
Standard
UR Thermo-Thing RU
I am guessing your reference to sagu mauler is 'hexproof blocker' another thing to worry about on that front I would think without a bribers purse at least would be animated land blockers for the deck?
Outside of that for the Altar and non-damage (or non-single damage) wincon's, avoids deflecting palm/fog effects as well. At least I believe Deflecting Palm doesn't actually target the source, it's kind of an odd mechanic that get's around protection so I would assume it get's around hexproof as well.
It is not about stopping opponent's creatures but more of returning multiple combo pieces i.e. dorks that died or were Commune'd and not picked up in one shot. And for Anger of the Gods, I'm quite sure it is not as popular as a mainboard at this moment so it should be answered by sideboarding Swan Songs most of the time.
Yeah, it and rival Caryatids are the only really viable hexproof creatures in this format. Animated lands are rarely a problem, but Nissa is so widespread that it's a problem we have to consider. Deflecting Palm, on the other hand, is almost never going to be an issue. Jeskai Tempo doesn't play it. Mardu aggro doesn't play it. Naya midrange doesn't play it. It's a terrible card in most scenarios, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.
This is the main reason I prefer Goblinslide. It gets around any and all blockers and is immune to the rogue Deflecting Palm (use your Helix-ed dork to bounce your goblin before damage).
| Omnath | Zada | Alesha | Scion |
| Mazirek | Animar |
Modern
UR Storm RU
UBRG Dredge GRBU
Standard
UR Thermo-Thing RU
Because it says when a Creature enters?
Unless you are playing "Goblin Slide" the pump is irreverent because you got it with your Ascendancy.
I am thinking
+1 Alter
+2 Astral C
+2 Bribers Purse
You can enable a turn 3 win pretty easy. as well as 1 single Dork (IE: Caryatid) you can go off with out fear of kill spells.
Tian version: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=8286&d=247643&f=ST
Channel Fireball version: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/pvs-playhouse-jeskai-ascendancy/
Any thoughts/advices? Anyone tested them?
Pros: Hilarious.
Cons: Outclassed by Twinflame to a ridiculous degree, useless until you've gone off, can be milled out by Commune. Don't play this card."
that is hilarious......I want to do it once =D
and for the record i've done better with a draw version than a dig version...mostly cause i keep chucking my combo pieces or don't have the ability to dig through time at crucial times. I don't know.... i guess i just had good luck while running card draw
You can't replace those with Ornithopter because he won't cause untapping.
Also, there's something to be aware of- Caryatid is not completely invulnerable. There's a lot of Abzan decks that run Caryatid and Bileblight. They can target their own Caryatid to kill ours.
I realize Deflecting Palm isn't super popular right now in the temp decks, but it's very good in the mirror, so it will be very meta dependent I would guess.
I do like goblinslide, though I haven't fully tested/goldfished with it, can you kill with a bunch of 1/1's, or would most of them be large enough a deflect would cause a draw?
The goblins will all be huge thanks to Ascendancy, and you can even go infinite with it after you draw your whole deck with Dragon Mantle.
| Omnath | Zada | Alesha | Scion |
| Mazirek | Animar |
Modern
UR Storm RU
UBRG Dredge GRBU
Standard
UR Thermo-Thing RU
"9/20/2014
Deflecting Palm doesn’t target any creature or player. You choose a source of damage as Deflecting Palm resolves."
Once a spell begins to resolve, no one can do anything until the spell finishes resolving. Therefore you can not respond to the declaration of what source Deflecting Palm is preventing.
To gxmiter: I prefer the Altar of the Brood route for the combo, but that aside you should add to your pros and cons analysis that it costs 1. In a pinch, that allows you to untap your creatures and loot again and generate an extra mana. This can be relevant. I had it matter twice the night I took this to FNM and wouldn't doubt it happening again tomorrow night.
If your playing against jeskai though you can just bounce all their creatures and attack for a lot with your mana dudes though. Just wondering (unless it was just someone mentioning it and not an actual game situation) I am not sure how Jeskai would stop your attack on a hexproof dude after you bounce any creatures they have out.
Didn't think about bouncing our own dude with helix, so that solves that part of the problem anyway. On a side note with slide then, what win condition would you run that would give your tokens haste to win that turn that wouldn't also provide another wincon?