would like to know people's thought on chandra, pyromaster. im kinda liking her at the moment. we need a source of card draw in the mainboard to deal with abzan decks. its also useful to stop blockers.
read the bones is a good card draw but sorcery speed and 2 life is bad in a lot of matchups. outpost siege is okay, but revealing a stormbreath, kologhan, elspeth, and not having mana to cast it is terrible.
It's a very interesting list with almost all the lands come into play tapped. It looks like it's way more controlling but it has no card drawing spells main deck.
It's a very interesting list with almost all the lands come into play tapped. It looks like it's way more controlling but it has no card drawing spells main deck.
In all honesty 14 tapped into play lands are too much for my comfort. It really makes the difference when your not on the play.
I do think the list otherwise looks good. It can addapt to this controlesque role. What I do find really strange is that this build completely ignores Caves of Koilos and Battlefield Forge but does contain a Whip of Erebos to regain life (and reanimation offcourse). As such I fully believe that 2 of either could massively increase the potential of this build.
I actually don't like the whip in the deck with only 14 creatures and none of the creatures have any ETB triggers. I would rather have an outpost siege or 2 (or sign in blood) for attrition match.
This deck is alright, but i dont think its really capable of winning in the current meta of standard. The complete lack of card draw/card advantage in the mardu colors is whats really holding it back. i almost feel just going b/r dragons and playing a couple sign in bloods could be better. you lose crackling doom, soulfire, and seeker, but you do get access to the token/stoke the flames combo and downfall. you could also splash white very slightly just for crackling doom.
thoughts on roast, and end hostilities over crux of fate?
On Roast: What creatures that you need to roast that can't be killed by crackling doom? Lightning Strike/Draconic roar fits the curve better than Roast.
On End Hostilities:I Like it better than crux but can our manabase support the WW on turn 5 consistently?
thoughts on roast, and end hostilities over crux of fate?
On Roast: What creatures that you need to roast that can't be killed by crackling doom? Lightning Strike/Draconic roar fits the curve better than Roast.
On End Hostilities:I Like it better than crux but can our manabase support the WW on turn 5 consistently?
roast was for the sideboard, i was mulling either roast or self-inflicted wound.
end hostilities is easier to cast than crux of fate. we are a r/w deck splashing black. thats why i like the switch. plus vs g/r dragons its always difficult to decide to kill dragons or non.
I think the sweeper question sort of relies on knowing specifics about a given list.
Does it run Dragons?
Does it want to cast Brimaz/Elspeth or Hero's Downfall/Whip?
What deck do we want it against?
Answer one of those questions and the result might become more apparent. E.g. if our mana is setup for WW, then End Hostilities is likely the better option. If we are running Dragons, perhaps shifting the mana to instead support Crux is a more effective option (this sort of implies we might have to cut the big white spells).
I kind of like the option of going for mardu than dragons. i mean foul-tonque invocation is kind of a terrible card unless up against esper control. there just going to sac a wayfinder or mystic most of the time. draconic roar is insane, but i feel maybe we can cut a few and play some better cards.
here is my idea. ashcloud phoenix is nuts right now. it blocks strombreath, thunderbreak, deathmist, and many others threats and it comes back. in a deck that needs card advantage i think this could be the case. Devotion and dragons use to be a favorable matchup, but with them adding ashcloud to their deck, i have seen it become a lot harder.
i have been working on a list that has something like this. 3x hordeling outbursrt, 4x stoke the flames, 2x draconic roar, 2-3 ashscloud phoenix, and 2 thunderbreak regeants.
i may be completly wrong about this idea but just throwing it out. how important is the damage that the thunderbreaks provide. to me is seems like the worst card in the deck and im most matchup it just sits there and cant do anything or dies right away.
I believe we're now able to discuss the effects of Origins on current decks, right?
What's everybody's opinion of how Origins will affect Mardu Dragons either directly or indirectly through the meta?
Initially I thought Languish would be a blowout against Mardu Dragons because it hits everything we have except for Kolaghan, but most of the time we win with a single dragon maybe dashing Kolaghan. Or, when we win the early game with Rabblemaster and Seeker, it's no different than Drown in Sorrow. So it seems we're fine there.
On the other hand, I didn't see any cards in Origins that immediately jumped at me that should be in this deck, so maybe we're not getting any help there.
So, this may sound like de-evolution but I've been playing mardu since khans. I made 2nd place at a GP super series and have done really well with the older list. The new mardu dragons version doesn't feel as good. I recently made some adjustments and went back to the older version with butcher. It has been doing great!! It feels so much better. Sure you lose some power since you run lightning strike over draconic roar but overall it just seems so much smoother and more consistent. I think Languish is going to be a big player going forward and will warp the format some. The speed of standard is going to change as you will now have to worry about a turn 4 board wipe. abzan seems to benefit the most as languish doesnt kill their rhinos or tasigur. I agree though i don't see much help from origins. Possibly the following but mostly as sideboard: Hallowed moonlight, languish, fiery impulse, exquisite firecraft. Anything I missed?
So this deck top 8'd the Chicago SCG event without the use of any Origins cards (at least in the main deck; I don't recall the sideboard). Good news, as I was hoping I'd still be able to play this deck post-Origins.
I'd say no. The original reason that the Aristocrats were a force was due to blood artist being in the deck. Tymaret is no blood artist. However if you maybe try 4 impact tremors in the list, cut some of the Tymaret for Hangarback walkers and maybe add another top end threat, say Chandra's parents, then we'd have something like this...
Obviously a rough draft but you see where I am going with this. Hangarback Walker gives us a stronger creature than sultai emissary that is actually great late game. Pia and Kiran add extra creatures for Butcher and can sac extra thopters for damage. I'd also like to put Alesha who smiles at death in as a 2 of as well due to her ability to bring back everything except butcher.
I believe we're now able to discuss the effects of Origins on current decks, right?
What's everybody's opinion of how Origins will affect Mardu Dragons either directly or indirectly through the meta?
Initially I thought Languish would be a blowout against Mardu Dragons because it hits everything we have except for Kolaghan, but most of the time we win with a single dragon maybe dashing Kolaghan. Or, when we win the early game with Rabblemaster and Seeker, it's no different than Drown in Sorrow. So it seems we're fine there.
On the other hand, I didn't see any cards in Origins that immediately jumped at me that should be in this deck, so maybe we're not getting any help there.
Boy, Mardu Dragons would have been a great choice for PT Vancouver. Good against aggro and crushes UR Thopter. Now that Abzan seems to be on the decline I think Mardu will rise again.
Have you tested this deck? The mana base looks very suspicious. You have so many expenisve spells but run only 24 lands. Also there is no reason to run only 2 Nomad Outpost. You should always run 4. I don't see how you can beat RDW pre or post board. No early blockers and minimal lifegain. Maybe im completly wrong here but I think you will have a very tough time against aggresive decks in general.
white is needed only for 4 crackling doom and 1 sorin and postboard 2 mastery of the unseen - i have 9 lands coming into play tapped (7 temples + 2 outpost) but outpost dos not provide me any benefit like scry.
manabase might be adjusted to run one extra land but so far i did not get any issue in drawing lands.
monored post board is not so bad with anger of the gods roast and pharika's cure coming in from the side - i am tempted of running 3x arashin cleric but i do not know what to cut from the side (perhaps chandra)
one adjustment main deck i want to do is to reduce CMC of my removals - natural switch should be wild slash or fiery impulse for downfalls. perhaps ultimate price/murderous cut are on the list too.
Relying on sorcery speed removal is very dangerous imho. It just begs to die to a dashed Lightning Berserker especially in your case where you have no early blockers.
So I've been testing the Hangarback Walker and Butcher of the Horde combo and it seems very good. My question is though, is it worth going this route and have to not play the Dragon theme?
Anyone try using Hangarback in the Mardu Dragons build? B/R Dragons has started using it, and I can't help but dream of the Dashing Kolaghan buff! Just a thought, seeing a Mardu Dragon decklist at GP London has brouhgt me back to all colors that work with Red right now, and Dragons + Mardu = my favorite Clan from Khans.
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Standard Arena: Eh? Gruul or Die
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now: G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record) C Eldrazi Tron (9-5) UG Infect RW Burn
So I've been testing the Hangarback Walker and Butcher of the Horde combo and it seems very good. My question is though, is it worth going this route and have to not play the Dragon theme?
I think so. I have been doing the older list for a while now. I've been trying to cram hangarback in but im frankly not sure what to take out. The list is tight. I do feel though that the butcher list is a little less clunky by comparison. My win rate with it is higher across the board. the version I run now uses 4 soulfire, 4 rabble, 4 butcher as the only creatures. Ive been bringing stormbreath in and out of the main because it is just great, especially against abzan since they stress downfalls early. the only other constant is 3 elspeth and the removal. downfalls, exquisite firecraft, doom, strike, and 1 charm, 1 command. I have thought about replacing rabble with hangarback but they are technically different slots and rabble sometimes is just a free win so it is hard to give up.
I myself have gone back to the Butcher builds as well. I've since won a game day, placed second in another, and top 8ed a third with my list. I am not on the hangarback plan yet, but I theorize that hangarback doesn't follow the game plan this deck follows. Our game 1 is very aggressive, and I don't feel that a doomed travel for 2cmc follows this path. Having to invest mana into it and not being able to attack with it is too slow for us, and it stops us from curving out into hordeling Outburst/rabble into Butcher.
I am also playing a fair amount of burn for reach, totalling in at 10 burn spells. I'll post my list when I have some time, as I am currently at work.
Of course!!!!
read the bones is a good card draw but sorcery speed and 2 life is bad in a lot of matchups. outpost siege is okay, but revealing a stormbreath, kologhan, elspeth, and not having mana to cast it is terrible.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=86444
It's a very interesting list with almost all the lands come into play tapped. It looks like it's way more controlling but it has no card drawing spells main deck.
I actually don't like the whip in the deck with only 14 creatures and none of the creatures have any ETB triggers. I would rather have an outpost siege or 2 (or sign in blood) for attrition match.
2 Soulfire Grand Master
4 Seeker of the Way
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Butcher of the Horde
Spells
3 Wild Slash
3 Lightning Strike
1 Kolaghan's Command
4 Crackling Doom
4 Hordeling Outburst
4 Stoke the Flames
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Temple of Silence
3 Battlefield Forge
3 Temple of Malice
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
4 Nomad Outpost
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Ultimate Price
3 Anger of the Gods
3 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Utter End
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 End Hostilities
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
I went with a transitional sideboard. I can potentially side in all 15x to become a control deck.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
On Roast: What creatures that you need to roast that can't be killed by crackling doom? Lightning Strike/Draconic roar fits the curve better than Roast.
On End Hostilities:I Like it better than crux but can our manabase support the WW on turn 5 consistently?
roast was for the sideboard, i was mulling either roast or self-inflicted wound.
end hostilities is easier to cast than crux of fate. we are a r/w deck splashing black. thats why i like the switch. plus vs g/r dragons its always difficult to decide to kill dragons or non.
Answer one of those questions and the result might become more apparent. E.g. if our mana is setup for WW, then End Hostilities is likely the better option. If we are running Dragons, perhaps shifting the mana to instead support Crux is a more effective option (this sort of implies we might have to cut the big white spells).
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
All of these options are a lot better at killing things than Roast, which has a number of relevant restrictions.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
here is my idea. ashcloud phoenix is nuts right now. it blocks strombreath, thunderbreak, deathmist, and many others threats and it comes back. in a deck that needs card advantage i think this could be the case. Devotion and dragons use to be a favorable matchup, but with them adding ashcloud to their deck, i have seen it become a lot harder.
i have been working on a list that has something like this. 3x hordeling outbursrt, 4x stoke the flames, 2x draconic roar, 2-3 ashscloud phoenix, and 2 thunderbreak regeants.
i may be completly wrong about this idea but just throwing it out. how important is the damage that the thunderbreaks provide. to me is seems like the worst card in the deck and im most matchup it just sits there and cant do anything or dies right away.
What's everybody's opinion of how Origins will affect Mardu Dragons either directly or indirectly through the meta?
Initially I thought Languish would be a blowout against Mardu Dragons because it hits everything we have except for Kolaghan, but most of the time we win with a single dragon maybe dashing Kolaghan. Or, when we win the early game with Rabblemaster and Seeker, it's no different than Drown in Sorrow. So it seems we're fine there.
On the other hand, I didn't see any cards in Origins that immediately jumped at me that should be in this deck, so maybe we're not getting any help there.
Thoughts?
2 Tymaret, the Murder King
4 Hangarback Walker
3 Liliana, Heretical Healer
2 Flashback Marauder
4 Butcher of the Horde
3 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
3 Impact Tremors
4 Crackling Doom
1 Kolaghan's Command
3 Hero's Downfall
Obviously a rough draft but you see where I am going with this. Hangarback Walker gives us a stronger creature than sultai emissary that is actually great late game. Pia and Kiran add extra creatures for Butcher and can sac extra thopters for damage. I'd also like to put Alesha who smiles at death in as a 2 of as well due to her ability to bring back everything except butcher.
I feel that Mardu Ascendancy is an out to Languish.
Relying on sorcery speed removal is very dangerous imho. It just begs to die to a dashed Lightning Berserker especially in your case where you have no early blockers.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
I think so. I have been doing the older list for a while now. I've been trying to cram hangarback in but im frankly not sure what to take out. The list is tight. I do feel though that the butcher list is a little less clunky by comparison. My win rate with it is higher across the board. the version I run now uses 4 soulfire, 4 rabble, 4 butcher as the only creatures. Ive been bringing stormbreath in and out of the main because it is just great, especially against abzan since they stress downfalls early. the only other constant is 3 elspeth and the removal. downfalls, exquisite firecraft, doom, strike, and 1 charm, 1 command. I have thought about replacing rabble with hangarback but they are technically different slots and rabble sometimes is just a free win so it is hard to give up.
Anyone else thoughts on this?
I am also playing a fair amount of burn for reach, totalling in at 10 burn spells. I'll post my list when I have some time, as I am currently at work.