I'm playing a more defensive deck than offensive and Thassa doesn't block. In particular 4/4 dragons often need blocking. Perhaps she would be a good alternative to Boon Satyr though. Boon Satyr exists because it helps Sphinx and Den Protector close out games (well also flash is nice), but Thassa can assist to close games instead.
twicky: That list wasn't innovative enough for you? How about this?
Right, so top of my head here. I deliberately dodged all the usual suspects, which is extreme, but I'm certain a strong deck could be made without the standard morph package or dragons package. Not likely top tier, but it's virtually impossible to have multiple equally top-tier decks in a single clan and archetype.
I can see that working for FNM. Anything works there. You also said you dodged the usual top tier decks. Not uncommon for FNM.
This being the competitive side of the forums our discussions are more focused on higher tournament play than FNM.
If you were giving results from an 8 man daily on MTGO I could give it moreally credit. Though your decks does highlight some future sleepers. I think silumgar's sorcerer and profaner are strong cards we'll likely see play after rotation.
This is starting to get ridiculous. At first glance it looked a bit like a debate Metamorph and I were having at the time that he wrote his How to Build Better Decks Primer. But this goes beyond that. He basically said when building decks he he first did the vaccuum or generally metagame power test on all the cards in the format, eliminating like 90% of them, and used that as his starting pool. This was coming out of Alara Zen where basically the power level was so high in every color you just played the same cards available to you (so 90% was pretty realistic). I argued you couldn't make that cut until considered what the proposed deck was trying to do an evaluated what role players were needed. His position was that while technically that was true the time investment generally wasn't worth it, and that this approach produced the same decks within a card or 2 in almost 100% of the cases. I generally agreed but would continue doing what I was doing by specializing in certain types of decks so it was very clear to me without much work what exactly was needed. Look at the past 6 years I make the same decks every Standard Format. Sometimes the decks are good and popular and sometimes they are not. Sometimes I get there first, sometimes I end up adopting the popular list. But the process and the archetypes are very close within a narrow band of green proactive midrange decks.
That being said playing different cards for the sake of different cards stops working at a certain point and I think it's highly unadvisable most of the time. So when I saw this debate, I was initially a bit torn. I think it's good to try stuff with purpose. However, given the power level of this format I think there are clear choices at every slot. I know there is this perception that it's all contextual and so many options. I disagree. If you see different cards go in different slots on curve it is the balance of things the deck needs to be doing and taking the necessary hit against just playing the better cards at each slot. I'm not saying there isn't a bit of a moving target here, but there really aren't that many choices and generally going against the grain is wrong. The only real limitation is mana cost. So if you can't play double red in your green midrange deck then you can't play Thunderbreak Regent.
But when it comes to choosing mana there are always trade offs, and my approach early on is play every 2 and 3 color green deck (sometimes 4 mana permitting) to figure out what I should be doing. To do this I run it against the different classifications of viable strategies in the metagame identify the holes. There are always holes. The key thing is in any color choice identify the viable spectrum of decks and reduce it to a few archetypes. Once I've done that identify the the color combinations and strategies that are just worst versions of a different combination. Usually this gets me to a point where it's a short list. And I try identify ways to reverse bad matchups or weaknesses without giving up room elsewhere. Eventually I come down to a few candidates.
The important thing during this whole process is making sure you are critical enough. See this is a high power format. The only thing that makes this different then Alara Zen is nothing is closing the games fast enough. Sure you can use that information to loosen certain constraints but you should be operating under the assumption. If everyone was making the optimum decisions from that standpoint the format would be a lot tighter and that's a good way of tuning out optimal efficiency. This format is loose largely because of the perception of it being so (when UB is a top deck this is always the case). It's going to start tightening up. There is a good reason Prognostic Sphinx is not seeing play anymore even if it beautifully blocks dragons. There is a reason Clever Impersonator has never been a thing. There is a reason Profaner hasn't quite been able to make the move over to the maindeck. It's not saying you can't do that, but at a certain point it stops being about combatting individual cards and it becomes about wholistically what you are doing. And in my opinion if it's being defensive you best be doing the best possible thing in the format. I know my latest lists are more defensive but it's a recognition of where they fit in the format and they are still incredibly proactive. Still I recognize that as a weakness. I have a strategy to overcome that in most of my deck design and sideboarding plans based on Role Invalidation but that's a topic for a different post.
The danger of different cards is skewed results due to people not expecting it, and the fact that they can line up nicely against certain other popular cards in the format. The problem is as soon as they don't line up or the opponent gets exactly what you are doing or the metagame is just a slight bit different than you expect you self sabotaged your power level. I've done this a ton before. Even with subtle role player choices. Fighting cards with cards is usually a losing battle. It's better to shift what you are doing to battle what they are doing. Sometimes these look like the same thing. If you side out your expensive spells and bring in a bunch of cheap removal against red you aren't just fighting cards with cards. You are pushing your resource transformation down the curve and using more trades to leverage your slightly better threats. Sometimes that doesn't actually work well enough and you have to find other ways like life gain to attack the strategy. But it's more than saying my Courser is fighting your Zurgo because it has 2 power and Zurgo only has 2 toughness. Removal is really the only place you can do that card on card analysis and then it just comes down to numbers. It's sort of reason I'm not a huge removal advocate since it can still line up properly and you need to play a certain density of removal to relieve that pressure. I often spend a lot of time figuring out how to avoid needing removal.
A good exercise in that is the recent Abzan Satyr Wayfinder Metamorph Deck that eschews Bile Blight. People have been commenting on the list saying they don't see how it has a good red matchup. The best pro commentary I've seen was from Top Level Magic with Chapin and Flores. Chapin nails it. Flores doesn't even see it at first. The funny thing was it was also incredibly obvious to me as well probably since I'd done the same exercise in Temur. When you play Wayfinder, Deathmist, Powerful cards you don't need as much cheap spot removal. You can lower your land count increase your density and the time you buy lets you convert into more powerful things that negate the need to use lower value cards.
My point is more often than not real innovation is taking an already good card and realizing it's exactly what something needs even if the text on the card wouldn't lead you see it immediately. Sure in the first couple weeks there are completely different areas to find. But after that it's about figuring out the best ways to approach a problem. This generally narrows the card pool. It does give room to come from way outside but more often than not it's about Gerry T'ing it. The ability to spitball lists is great, and it's what I always love about Patrick Chapin. You give him a card pool he will give you V 0.1 of every deck in the format. But the sad reality is most decks aren't good enough because the cards don't do enough in their roles. However, if you can figure out how to shift the elements so they do or a trivial way to reverse a bad matchup without losing your normal stance it is a game changer. This is usually found through subtle manipulation of role players to change the fluidity of how the deck can jockey for position. So for me ultimately, while it starts at a place of discovery, it really comes down to fundamentally finding archetypes that can adjust their window of attack suitably to address the popular strategies. If you hear me lamenting about my lists I almost constantly say the timing isn't right. It sounds ambiguous and it definitely is hard to pinpoint but more often than not it just comes down to mana and curve concerns and probability. The fact that on the surface this often has so little to do with the cards themselves might lead you to believe the cards don't matter as much, but what the cards do at each slot shift the balance of pressure that is put on all the other slots. If those choices don't withstand the pressure the deck will fail. This level of scrutiny will often really show which cards are the best choices. Coincidentally or not it's typically the obvious choice (or rather the same choice everyone else has come to). So straying from that typically needs a really really good reason. But those reasons are rarely the text on the cards but more the deck needs X and this is the way I can see fulfilling it. But that only comes after really optimizing everything else and running out of obvious options. Sometimes it's just worse, and you just have to concede this gap. Sometimes it's enough, sometimes you move on. If you aren't aiming for or at top tier there is probably something better to be doing.
PS. Still happy with Purphoros so far.
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I can see that working for FNM. Anything works there. You also said you dodged the usual top tier decks. Not uncommon for FNM.
You misread me. When I said dodged the usual suspects, I meant the deck list avoids top cards. Just to highlight that there's plenty of room to innovate. That list is 100% untested untried brainstorming. Definitely not a recommended list, and if I pursued it, I would bring back some old standbys, though not the morphs because they are counter to the list's strategy.
Ryan, youseem to have a good deal of understanding I could learn from for sure. Regarding my posts, please disregard the Prophet brew as it's not worth noting.
As for the Sphinx list, I stand on its worthiness. It is definitely the best performing deck I've ever played, better for me than GR devotion, or Sultai Whip during FRF. I'm confident I could take on a PPTQ with it, and do well despite my not being a highly skilled player. And it's not just because it's rogue. Local grinders know what I'm playing but usually fall to it anyway.
As to why it's good, it is doing "the most powerful thing in the format", namely Den/Deathmist/Whisperwood and works to maximize their effectiveness, while slowing the opposition (mostly by the true green way of attacking and blocking). That Sphinx is not the most powerful card in standard but it is ideal for the roles it fills in this deck.
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Current Awesome Deck: UWAll-In GiftsWU Consistent, Resiliant, and way overpowered, making multiple 4/4s per turn.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWUFree Stuff MidrangeUWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
Your main Sphinx list looks decent. Mana, curve, threats seem to be inline. You play Sphinx for a lot of the same reasons I play Sarkhan. The only question/argument is if it's a worse something else. This is something that midrange decks are the most guilty of and it's the hardest thing to really figure out in that range. With a deck farther at the aggro or control side of the spectrum it's not as hard to figure out if it's doing what it's doing comparatively effectively. It's not just a matter of if the deck is built well.
You've probably gone through this exercise yourself but for the sake of justifying your list humor me. So you have identified your powerful thing: Protector/Deathmist/Whisperwood. First 2 things one would observe about this is you aren't maximizing on it, and the plan is mono green. The first is just a question of consistency. Why 3 Deathmist Raptor and 3 Den Protector? The number of each suggests that you typically want to draw one of each but you are fine not drawing them or only finding one late game and don't particularly want to risk having 2 of them early on. That largely is why I only play 3 Den Protector myself since that isn't the main plan of my list. Rattleclaw gives Deathmist Raptor value anyway without having to invest in more cards for it. But why not the full number? I'm pretty sure it's a curve concern. With the Courser's and the dorks you are rounding out at 18 cards in the sub 4 drop proactive slots already. You are concerned about threat density. The trade off suggests there may be better Deathmist/Den Protector decks. I'm not saying that's where the comparison should be but it's a consideration.
The second is being mono green we have a pretty large range to compare similar decks with similar plans from 1 to 3 colors. So why blue and only blue? Maindeck it supports Prognostic Sphinx and Negate. Sideboard there are a few other cards. Most notably a lot of double blue cost cards that are generally not seen in any lists. I am not one to condemn a few spicy ones. A list like this can leverage it's mana uniquely for a deck with blue in it, but you really have to weigh the opportunity cost versus what other cards can play those roles in different colors. In some cases it is just recognizing we don't have Hero's Downfall and need something and will have to go with a card that is clunkier or more narrow. How does that weigh against what blue brings that is actually better? Polymorphist Jest and to some degree Plummet are clearly concessions. Is there anything that blue does uniquely that gives this list an edge? If the answer is just permission there are options possibly 3 color that aren't so blue. To me this is sort of like the debate between Arbor Colossus and Stormbreath Dragon at 5. There are good arguments and synergies that support both cards but you have to really weigh out the cost of the more reactive card. I'm not trying to slag the Sphinx on power level and I am pretty sure understand the role it is playing. It's more a question of why that role exists? Is Sphinx a worse Ojutai, and is Whisperwood/Metamorph better served with Mastery of the Unseen and Dromoka's Command.
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Why 3 Deathmist Raptor and 3 Den Protector? To be honest, I suspect 4 Raptor and 2 Protector is a better plan because the latter is best played when I have 5 mana, and I don't have a lot of room there. I'm still aiming to trade for one more raptor, but nobody has any.
5 mana is really the key to this list, and as a consequence 25 land, 8 dorks and 2 Coursers make that happy smoothly while anything less starts making things difficult.
As for Blue, those counter spells and that scry are the reason this deck functions as well as it does, and I daresay more reliably than the standard green/red devotion (which I played before this). Being able to play a big creature and keep it there stops aggro and also stops control. It's been very effective.
Why only blue? Well that's why I'm in this thread. I think there are possibilities with better removal or other effects that could make things even stronger. I just haven't so far been convinced what to swap around. One idea is to go Sultai with Wayfinder and Cut. Murderous Cut could definitely supplant Setessan Tactics and Plummet. Another is to add white for Mastery of the Unseen. Or I could add red and replace Colossus with Sarkhan Unbroken. Temur would be the easiest because Rattleclaw, but I'm open.
As for the Sphinx itself, it is actually proving itself the best card in the deck, bar none. In its role here it might (well, probably not) actually *better* than Ojutai because I have limited permission, and Sphinx doesn't expose itself by attacking. (Or, I could be all wet on this point.) Obviously Anticipate is better than Scry 3, but only slightly. I get to set up my next Courser land, next manifest, next draw, and don't fear Downfall. Point is, I'm often in a situation where I have a Sphinx and Courser, and they downfall Courser as I attack with the Sphinx repeatedly digging through the deck. With Ojutai, it would be attack and die, or else sit hoping a counter shows, even as I'm not using it it.
Bottom line, the list crushes control by design. It's tuned to cause trouble for Abzan Aggro and midrange dragons. I'm not aware of other green decks with a similar profile. My weakness is limited removal, but generally my guys are bigger so it's not usually a problem.
My fear in splashing is that a weaker manabase will break something that's clearly working, but I'm game to investigate.
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GWUFree Stuff MidrangeUWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
Got bored of Abzan and decided to give Temur a try. I really enjoyed the deck I played tonight at FNM, though I have a few sub optimal cards in the list I managed to go 5-0.
I took John Lubrano's top 16 list from StarCity Worcester as my base list since I didn't have any experience with Temur in this standard, and subbed a few cards around that I didn't have. After that I came here and read the past few pages of this thread and got pretty inspired about the list. Lots of good discussion happening here. It was you guys who guided me to Epic Confrontation in the sideboard as a replacement for the Roasts that I was missing. Wow did epic confrontation do a lot of work for me tonight, that and Anger of the Gods won me a lot of post board games.
I have a few odd choices in here compared to other lists going around and I'll take a minute to talk about those.
Stratus Dancer - I only had 3 Stubborn Denial sitting around so I put this in as the 4th counter spell. I really liked the option to cast it 2nd turn to put on some early pressure. I only ended up drawing and casting it once in the 5 rounds I played and my opponent knew what it was because he saw it off of Courser. So I didn't really get a good test of how well he worked in the deck, but I did have a few times where Stubborn Denial just wasn't what I wanted so I like not having 4. For now I'll stick with Stratus Dancer and see how it goes.
Flamewake Phoenix - I put this in because I felt it was a good recurring threat against control, that also let me get more agressive in game 2 scenarios where I was on the play. As a 3 drop that dosn't turn on Ferocious or Formidable I can't say I'm at all in love with this guy. I didn't play against control at all tonight, and in the one game I sided them in(mostly just to try them out) I didn't draw any. So I may test further or I may replace them, not sure yet.
I feel like I could use some help with the sideboard. Like I said I am really not in love with Flamewake Phoenix, any suggestions for a replacement? Still not very experienced with this deck so I'm not too sure what it is weak against preboard.
I find that conrtrol struggles against counterspells, especially when they are not expecting it. I flipped a Status Dancer in response to an opponent's Dig Through Time last night and it was essentially game over. I got the "that's not fair" look that I love to see when someone piloting a permission deck is denied permission.
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"Because we cannot prevent draws in paper Magic we allow IDs. If we could prevent draws we would not have IDs in paper Magic. " Scott Larabee.
Yeah permission makes them crumble so easily. It's why I play Temur largely. This format is so tempo sensitive, that like Unsummon would be a beating. They've been really careful to make the tools for tempo to be awkward to facilitate everything else.
@twicky_kid: Fine, I'm sold on Atarka. It's good to be able to close the door. And an over the top way to buy back value. There are two huge differences between my current list and when I tried Atarka before. Courser and Sarkhan. They allow you to play more mana without playing like 16 dorks or 25 lands. I'm thinking 23 lands (4 Elf, 4 Rattleclaw, 2 Cayartid). Sarkhan especially makes Atarka better.. Sarkhan at 5 mana, untapped land Sarkhan +, means you can back to back it. Best case as soon as T3-T4. Once you are playing more dorks proactively you don't need as much like Draconic Roars.. So I am in a phase of re-adjusting. It also changes the board plan. The Bees plan doesn't matter as much this way, so I have room for more powerful cards. I think this puts me back on Seismic Rupture and Epic Confrontation. But I could be wrong. I know I shouldn't be concerned about it but the black aggro decks seem to always have my number when I go this way. I also have been playing close attention to some of the recent lists. Top Level Podcast ended this week with a whole discussion on Temur Dragons, basically brewing along this line.
I think the biggest tension here is between Dragons and Knuckleblade. After going to more mana dorks I can see how I could support Knuckleblade. But I'm still suspect of it's timing. I think Deathmist is still a better blend with the dragon plan. I will probably post a refined list later today.
Stratus Dancer is fine, it's just a lot lower impact in random game 1's I think than the proactive plan unless you have absurd time to set up. To me I'd play a Den Protector in that sort of slot. It's basically the same thing but it gives more flexibility. It's a small thing though. My Den Protectors are often Stratus Dancer's anyway (ie.. by back a permission spell).
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Sometimes Stratus Dancer is just a 2/1 for 2 blocker before getting sided out. But, that can be useful. It is more useful in a deck that makes use of manifest.
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The slowly gaining board presence has to be plan B. You are right there are better decks doing that. I think you play these colors (ie.. GR) is because you get there first. If you are playing GR and not playing Thunderbreak Regent, why even play red. You can play Gx with Haven splash Atarka pretty easily. The argument I guess is Sarkhan is nuts. I'm buying that. However if you get to ambitious main on the go big plan a deck with dedicated permission will kill you easily. I found Satyr Wayfinder Sinergy not worth what you lose in these colors (ie.. the ability, to be like T3, T4, T5, T6 dragon). Once you have the full crew in there you have a lot of air.
Today I was trying something a little different. It's probably a bit too cute. Cut the Den Protector main and play my more typical Aggressive midgame. The concept here is I wanted more Deathmist Raptors than my opponent in the first 4 turns and I wanted to able to cut on Draconic Roar which doesn't promote my board early as like to. To compensate for playing these lines I reintroduce Shaman of the Great Hunt. Basically I get super aggressive 134 starts, and if the board stalls I can draw a ton of cards into Atarka.
This looks like a pile but what it allows me to do is keep a Atarka plan pretty much always postboard. If Atarka is my Anger of the Gods so to speak it means I just want a million shocks in the board. If I generally don't care about my opponents plans unless they can race me in the first few turns, let's just free us space and screw stuff like Roast or Fighting. I realize how narrow this approaches play is, and I'm not completely sold but for sake of experiment it's a game when the ground is being locked down by Deathmist/Protectors anyway. This atleast gives an aggressive angle. We really haven't had that good of an angle since Rabblemaster started being bad. That being said the Temur lists right at the time of Khans probably would kill this deck. But the metagame has moved very far from there.
Yeah it was for pure Stats. I'm not even sure if there is anything worth bringing back. Like maybe a Courser or Rattleclaw? I was looking for a 3 power first striker for less than 4 mana. That or indestructible. As stated I wanted more Deathmist Raptors or rather cards good against Deathmist Raptor and Den Protector. Keeping Fleecemane Lion at Bay is nice too although those decks will probably try some Dromoka trickery. I was basically seeing if there was a way I could avoid playing Draconic Roar. I mean it's a small thing but there are zero dead cards against control main. And it's a decent stance to take against on the ground aggro. You'd rather be casting proactive cards than reactive most cases anyway and First Strike makes tokens, Foundry Street Denizen, and even Swiftspear just awkward enough. Sure they will just burn it but having just more of those annoying 3's is nice. If you ever stick the mana dork, it even potentially opens you up postboard to 3 drop, Spray. That's why I wanted Spray in the board, I think 1 mana makes all the difference here. Mind you this sort of plan is one in which something like Feed the Clans is passable. You are assuming here you will land and stick a 4 power creature since you are apologetically leaving the mana ramp in. I just worry that while powerful it's too situational and may not be needed. The assumption is that you bring Magma Spray in against the other color aggro decks and in the mana dork green mirrors. If your opponent is trying to cast Atarka off anything other than Sylvan Caryatid you should be in the cheapest mana possible killing their dorks and progressing your own board. Something like Arc Lightning could be better (if they aren't Elf Caryatid) but that's your whole turn. However if you turn is Caryatid, shoot your Elf, you are in way better shape all things being equal. Because of the potential for Disdainful Stroke getting there first or ahead on mana in general gives you a huge advantage over the non-blue variants all things being equal.
The problem with the approach I posted is it isn't particularly good against Knuckleblade or Mantis Rider. I mean Knuckleblade looks pretty silly against Deathmist atleast. It's related to why I started hedging with Shaman again. A 3 power first Striker is good through a lot of early boards even on the attack outside of like Courser. Often enough you can get an early attack or 2 in and then you just play defensive duty on the ground while your fliers and planeswalkers win the game. With Deathmist and Alesha it isn't hard for a surprise Shaman drop to turn on Shaman's draw ability. This typically means that if the opponent is trying to win on the ground it takes considerable effort them to flank you. An active Xenagos seals that. Of course this means a less reactive plan to aggro so if something gets around it, it can be awkward. Hornet's Nest covers most of the ground. The thing is with enough fliers you have to just assume you will draw into dragons. So I think if you keep them off their Mentors, Grandmasters, Rabblemasters and Seeker's etc and concede to the T3/T4 Mantis Rider when you don't have Thunderbreak you are good in most places.
I did lose to Jeskai this morning but it was more that I didn't bring in the Sprays and Grandmaster basically single handedly beat me even if it was 2 Mantis Riders and an Ashcloud at the end. I played 2 Mardu decks this morning afterwards and brought in the sprays and it did exactly what I wanted which was force a big threats game where Disdainful Stroke and the fact that I have more Dragons than them eventually won the game. Well sort of, it forced a top deck war where I was able to use Rattleclaw to bring back 2 Deathmist Raptors that ultimately won me the game. I haven't had a chance for Alesha to shine yet mind you. So far it's just been an on curve attacker. I did just humiliate Abzan Control with a Elf, Deathmist, Alesha, Shaman, draw 3 cards game, where he went for End Hostilities but I drew into enough lands and threats to go Sarkhan Atarka your Siege Rhino.
EDIT:
I think I need to bring back one Epic Confrontation or Sessian Tactics just to deal with Master of Waves. While Mob Ruling them is incredibly satisfying having one earlier line is probably better. Since it's decent everywhere else I think the trade is -1 Magma Spray +1 Epic Confrontation.
I've been playing Esper and losing to Abzan, GW Aggro, etc. I've tried this Temur deck out online and find I'm not really winning anymore than I did with Esper, but I haven't played Temur before either.
What drew me to this deck is Sarkhan, he seems like a great planeswalker. Stormbreath seems good now also.
Any opinions from the Temur experts? Is this the wrong build, the wrong time to play this build, etc?
I've been playing Esper and losing to Abzan, GW Aggro, etc. I've tried this Temur deck out online and find I'm not really winning anymore than I did with Esper, but I haven't played Temur before either.
What drew me to this deck is Sarkhan, he seems like a great planeswalker. Stormbreath seems good now also.
Any opinions from the Temur experts? Is this the wrong build, the wrong time to play this build, etc?
Interesting, I missed that one somehow. The deck might be pretty good. It does a lot of the right stuff and then tries a few things that I haven't tried. I think it probably has too many spells but if I were to play that many spells that's a good mix (Draconic Roar, and Stubborn Denial are the best we have generally). The only thing I really dislike is the Rabblemaster and the Kiora and 11 taplands. Everything else seems on the level. In fact 11 taplands seems insanely bad. It's like you are playing the mana dorks just to stay on curve while all your lands come in tapped. 6 mana dorks is ambitious for that top end too. Maybe 6 and 24 lands is right but I'm dubious.
The sideboard is the most interesting thing to me. I've been seeing this trend of playing Anger to combat Deathmist Raptor decks and Aggro in general but it is so self sabotaging I think it's suspect. Like definitely bring it in against GW or Mono Red. But what about Abzan Megamorph. Probably not. Like if someone tried to bring Anger in against me they'd probably be disappointed. While it would keep me off Atarka ramp (it'd keep them off too mind you) a T3 Dragon puts you so far ahead of Anger even if they take out an Elf and a Deathmist. I mean what have they've been casting. Rending Volley I just don't get. I mean I've thought about the card but the 4 means it kills basically 2 cards you care about Mantis Rider, and Ojutai. I meant care about. Ojutai is a funny card. It's both the best Dragon out there and the card that you want your opponent to play because it's like they took a mulligan. It does almost nothing against you in Temur. I guess it can be a 5 mana removal spell to trade with your 3 drops. But most of the time they don't want to block. I mean if it was Storm Crow atleast they would feel better chumping with it. It's difficult for most Ojutai players to accept that their card in these situations is worse than garbage. I think Ojutai is probably still worth countering, since it's a tempo play, but if you don't counter it and saved it for a real card I think that's respectable. Anyway my point is the card you needed that card to kill was Silumgar. If it did 5 damage I would play it religious. I'm gathering they couldn't have it kill Siege Rhino as well. But that is a trade I would make to allow me to lighten up on Roast. Everything else short of Brimaz in these colors dies to Draconic Roar or good old Magma Spray. I mean do you bring it in against Abzan since it kills Fleecemane Lion and half a Wingmate Roc?
Other interesting ones. Arbor Colossus and Surrak. Arbor Colossus feels too much like switching gears. It's fine, but I wonder if it can't be served as something else. I've definitely had Arbor Colossus in the board before. The difficulty is the more aggressive opponent with fliers will have Valorous Stance. And Mardu will always have the Crackling Doom. It's basically just for the GR Dragons mirror. However, playing hasty 4 power creatures that are cheap generally has the same effect because you can force them on the defensive. I think the card is questionable. Sometimes it's really good, other times they have removal. Which I guess goes the same for Surrak. I obviously played this card a ton in the fall and haven't really gone back to him. I think the card has gotten a lot better the last couple weeks. I've been tempted to try it again. Mainly that I think people have been lowering their removal count so he's like a flash blocker that does some work. Unfortunately Deathmist Raptor makes this and most non-dragon aspects of Temur a bit embarrassing. Obviously this is for the more control matchups (even Abzan Control arguably) but to me it's more of do I really need it if those match-ups are already really good.
In all I think a lot of the numbers pretty right 3 Sarkhan, 2 Xenagos, 3 Stubborn Denial, 2 Disdainful Strokes etc.. Just that the Anger plan is a trap even though it seems one of the only ways this deck can deal in certain matchups. It's a shame they couldn't fit atleast 2 Haven since that would probably be enough of a push in certain matchups they could lighten up the need for other cards for attrition. I think the mana/dork base to Atarka is suspect. 30 mana sources is pretty low to play a 7 in this sort of deck. I felt 31 was too low. 33 seems about right. I'm sure you flood and get there sometimes but there are a lot of cards that you can be drawing in the meantime that actually do very little. The fact the decks 3's are just Rabblemaster and Courser put you in a place that is both easy to stump aggressively and defensively. I will say Rabblemaster does create an interesting tension in that Hornet's Nest lines up so well against it but not the rest of the deck. So you might be able to trade it off for your opponents 3 drop at some point. So it's almost like a bad Deathmist Raptor. However, if the opponent is doing nothing the first couple turns it might win a game which is considerable. That being said that's the limit on Rabblemaster. As soon as you do anything more on the ground with this sort of list they bring in Hornet's Nest and Rabblemaster is just terribly bad. Let's see what else. I could go for one more anti enchantment card in the sideboard. Oh and Keranos. The card is fine and gives some grinding staying power. It's unlikely to become a god but maybe the card advantage is good. I can't help but wonder if I'd just want the 4th Sarkhan if I was prepared to play that card.
In general this deck plays it's early turns safe which is good but it's unable to present aggressive starts as easily outside of Rabblemaster which can often do nothing and you are playing too many tapped lands and only 2 elfs to prevent it from likely really getting the jump. From a numbers game it means the odds are pretty low there. I think it severely weakens the deck for all things you pick up from the scrying and better density later. The ferocity count is low enough that 3 Denials main is pushing it. I like the card a lot but trading the elf density for non-creature spell density seems like a weak trade off. These are all subtle things and they all have trade offs but I think it generally means I see this deck doing much better against a known field than an abstract one. The timing is a bit manic and not in the way that I like. It's the difference between being to power over Abzan and being dead in the water to Siege Rhino unless you draw Roast. The more you play it safe the first few turns the more pressure you put on your midgame cards. This does make Denial better since like a few removal spells from your opponent are so much worse here. Temur has the advantage of being more unknown but I mean how long can you play up to the point the opponent isn't expecting Stubborn Denial. That is probably what got them there. Denial is a beating if you don't play around it. I think that list while getting a lot of the core stuff right is still like half a dozen cards off.
I'm also not a fan of the Rabblemasters, I'd replace them with two more mana dorks. I'd also replace the 1-of Kiora, probably the Atarka too. I'm interested in seeing how Keranos works, but again it's not really where I think the deck hopes to be. Which would get me back to something more typical. By all means, though, test with Kiora and Keranos and see if they work well.
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"Because we cannot prevent draws in paper Magic we allow IDs. If we could prevent draws we would not have IDs in paper Magic. " Scott Larabee.
When you look at it, it makes a lot sense why that list wants Kiora. Being able to defend your planeswalkers can be a challenge. However, on curve you are basically stuck with Courser or chump. Otherwise you may have to spend a turn on removal. The problem is Kiora isn't exactly on curve. It's on curve to Sarkhan, but it competes with Xenagos for timing. Maybe that's acceptable but in which cases is it actually better than Xenagos. They both die pretty readily to haste fliers and generally Xenagos token can chump anything on the ground. If they have you flanked both suck. Basically the only case is when the opponents creature has trample like Siege Rhino. In a game that is gummed up non-haste fliers Kiora helps with too, as long that flier isn't Thunderbreak Regent. Basically it's a matter of weighing plan A ramp big dudes and go wide to gum the board versus ability to have a pseudo moving removal spell.. Except it doesn't encourage attacking. Sure it's pretty sweet to lock down a Dromoka and be able to attack with your Stormbreath Dragon. But that isn't even why Dromoka's a pain (it's the anti counter clause against a deck that is going to be going bigger than you).
Basically, Kiora is making up for something the deck naturally could have in most cases by taking a more proactive stance earlier. But without that it makes Kiora look much better in the list. But drawing your one of is a lot more risky than changing the plan at a fairly minimal cost. The fact there is a 2nd in the board suggests the card must be a trump somewhere. I'm not quite sure where that is. For the most part it feels to me like a conditional sorcery speed tumble magnet (with albeit a pretty sweet ultimate).
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Current Decks: GWUKnightfall Modern UWTempo Legacy UGRBurning Wish Cobra Vintage
I haven't updated on here for a while. I am still playing the deck tons. I did venture into a few GB brews briefly but they couldn't touch this. I'm still having success against most decks. I sort of just caved to the fact that GR Devotion is a thing as well as Naya and just am embracing to match I have to go a bit bigger. I'm not super stoked but I haven't been punished by it.
In basic add a land and add a 3rd Atarka. There isn't really anything cute about it. Jamming raw power does things. I think the board is probably not quite correct but the matchups I've been seeing have been so narrow I haven't had the opportunity to really judge if it's that certain decks don't exist anymore or that I just haven't been facing them. Maybe I just land Atarka before it matters. Seriously it's all about who lands Atarka first. So if you can disrupt them, stop the first one coming down, and play yours.. you typically win. All I've been playing have been Abzan, GRx Devotion, RBx Dragon lists. With that sort of field a lot of cards in my sideboard seem wanting (I'm looking at you Den Protector and Back to Nature). It's possible that things have just shifted enough I don't have to worry about certain matchups. It's also possible as I said before Atarka > all. You'd think the UB decks would change to deal with that, it doesn't even seem to hurt me that much game 1. Postboard I'm right back to easily beating them. I wonder if there is just this attachment to Abzan that isn't justified that is skewing the metagame where the deck isn't actually particularly good against most decks but passable in enough places it's creating a rock paper scissors that has no business existing.
EDIT:
The biggest thing that might not be obvious is actually how important Shaman of the Great Hunt is. It isn't immediately obvious looking at the list. You can't usually leverage it purely aggressively. However it's basically a repeatble Harmonize. I mean consider a card like Tasigur. Admittedly it has nicer stats as a 4/5 so it isn't as fragile and it can be played on the cheap, but when you compare the activated abilities I don't even think it's close Shaman is better. What's awesome about the card is in high removal grindy matchups it often feels like having more Dragons. Like against against Mardu where everything is trading. Do they not just trade their Thunderbreak Regent for it. So it's completely servable from an aggressive stance but when the game stalls there is no single better ca engine in Standard.
I know it's a bit of the rub ins but quite often these days with like UB Tasigur activations I give them Dig Back if I think I can win in a turn. Often a counter spell or removal spell is more disruptive and if they have to use Dig they probably don't have mana to do much else. The as I mentioned I've lost only a handful of games to UB in the last few months and 2 out of like 8 of them have been the opponent Ashiok Shaman, and winning that way. One of the opponent was smart enough to let me kill Ashiok instead of chump with Shaman. Even at the reduced rate that they can use it, it's still more powerful than any of their draw spells since it's repeatable +1 at the minimum. Dig is really only +1. Eot pour 8 mana into it is basically Jace Ingenuity.
Against decks with red burn it actually isn't as bad as it looks even if it's where it's at it's weakest. Not against say mono red, but it's passable against Jeskai because if you can connect with a dragon once with it on the board, they pretty much can't remove it. Like a 5/5 Thunderbreak Regent is pretty much game there outside of Valorous Stance.. a 5/5 Stormbreath is game. It would seem like this requires all too much work and to a certain degree really you just in enough games drop Atarka and move on, but if you stabilize in many matchups or you are playing into endless doom blades it pushes this angle that can take over the game.
I got a bit of a brew today. I was looking at the Naya Dragons deck and was thinking what if we just assume Stormbreath > Dromoka what is that deck doing that Temur isn't. So I decided to play around with a list that exploits Xenagod. I typically don't like this because of the investment means you probably can't play any reactive cards. You just can't afford the threat density loss. Secondly it requires you to up your curve significantly. There are a couple ways to compensate. Find good game enders you can play sooner to give the deck a touch more density. Play more Havens of the Spirit Dragon. Have a way to get some value in the process.
Well value and Deathmist seem a good plan, plus double mana symbols turn on Xenagod easier. 25 lands with 4 Havens isn't too hard. And finally I know a least a couple people are all about this card Sagu Mauler. This plays into all the plans. It plays with Xenagod, it plays with Deathmist, and it gets under Disdainful Stroke and it plays some late game resilience. Generally not quite good enough, but Xenagod makes it reasonable even against opposing Raptors. Which can't be said about cards like Knuckleblade which is another card which covers a bit of that domain.
So this deck roughly is based off Zvi Mowshowitz's Finest Hour version of Mythic although we have a bit less flexibility in our lands to effectively go up to 26-27. But there are less dorks here. It's less explosive but the curve shouldn't be too ambitious as there is a lot more potential value to be gained off less mana mid to late game.
The sideboard is probably all wrong. Maybe the control matchup isn't as bad as I anticipate. Maybe there is no need to be quite so dedicated main deck. The board might not even have relevant plans given how much more brute force the list is. This is still a bit rough but it's interesting to me at the least that Temur might be better at playing the game plan than Naya simply from access to better mana and more 3 color cards close to the strategy. And in so probably has a better chance shoring up control which I anticipate to be the worst matchup.
For those wondering I beat mono red with this list just now. It might not be as bad as it looks. But there is definitely a deficit of certain elements in the board.
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Current Decks: GWUKnightfall Modern UWTempo Legacy UGRBurning Wish Cobra Vintage
This is quite a departure from what I was doing before and it's back to being very purist. I just kept on noticing that Xenagod and Sarkhan were fighting for slot timing wise and I'd almost always play Sarkhan because Sarkhan better ensured Atarka. Since Sarkhan + untapped land let's you immediately play Atarka on curve. And honestly Atarka was pretty much always better than Sagu Mauler. I mean if you aren't winning with Atarka on board Sagu isn't going to do it. Either they counter it or it enters play and they kill it, then you have use for another. So I cut Xenagos.. Basically I didn't really need the help at 4, and Raptors can hold the board. I'd rather up my chances of early plays so I went to all 12 dorks. This means a large number of draws have the potential of going.
T1 Elf
T2 2 Drop Mana Dork
T3 Sarkhan
T4 Atarka
Even the Xenagos nut draw only helps you accelerate more 4 drops ie:
T1 Elf
T2 Morph Rattleclaw
T3 Flip Rattleclaw, play Xenagos +1, Thunderbreak Regent
T4 Atarka
Both boards are actually incredibly similar, but Sarkhan gives you more play and is more powerful on it's own. It's not like you can play them any time before T3 without ramp so the timing at 4 mana even if you only have the single accelerator still usually can be filled by 3 drop tapland which better sets up the 5 drop anyway. You don't have to worry about protecting Xenagos for a turn by chumping with the the 2/2.
But that same draw lets you play Sarkhan with a dork untapped, so if you so choose to chump you can actually immediately plus Sarkhan to keep the loyalty high and draw a card to up your chances of hitting land drops. With 4 Sarkhan's you are must more likely to draw multiples, so turns where you cash in Sarkhan play another are not too uncommon. This actually makes the Dragon density feel even higher since you are more likely to make Dragons with Sarkhan. They average 2 dragons now, which puts us near 20 Dragons range. The tension of this deck is to know when to go for Ramp or when to play a midrange game. It's not a bad problem to have. I haven't experienced this sort of feeling since playing like Fauna Shaman/Mythic Hybrids during Alara Zen. You can either try to value off your Vengevines Deathmist Raptors or you can just play the Rattleclaw out early to ramp out a quick Atarka. Like do you play the T2 Deathmist or the 2nd Dork. Usually it's the 2nd Dork but there is some flexibility there.
The weirdest inclusion is probably Surrak Dragonclaw. I'm still trying this one out. I just think the deck needs some lines to make things awkward for Control and it's a decent body at 5 mana for ambushing. Incidental game 1 advantages of letting Deathmist trample over has some fringe benefits. The plan against a number of decks is to side out some amount of ramp and Atarka's anyway but Surrak makes sure you can bridge that gap fine. Against UB you are already taxing their Downfalls and Ultimate Price doesn't hit it. Admittedly a deck full of Abzan Charms probably laughs at it, but atleast it's big enough to block and kill a Siege Rhino. I could just round it out with Stormbreaths or Icefall Regents but those are too much more of the same the deck already does. I like 4/4 dragons and the deck produces them en masse but I'm looking for something of a role player that supports the team that can also just win games on it's own.
EDIT:
Surrak is meh.. I think I'm going back to Shaman of the Great Hunt. It's a curve concern. Basically I want to be able to transform back into normal 8 dork deck against control and to do so I need atleast another power 4 drop.
I took a worse version of Ryansolid's list to Monday night standard for the second time, winning again. This time I went 3-0, plus a bye.
Match 1: Jeskai Dragon Control
G1: lots of trading then another Stormbreath for the win.
G2: Get to 5 mana, Slam Surrak Dragonclaw at opponent EOT. Win.
Match 2: GW Devotion
G1: Elvish Mystic into facedown Rattleclaw into Sarkhan Unbroken into Dragonlord Atarka into opponent scoop
G2: Keep hand without accelerants. Watch huge board develop on opposite side of table while twiddling thumbs, scoop.
G3: Mulligan hand without accelerants. Accelerate into Xenagos, the Reveler. Opponent gets double Mastery online with Whisperwood and starts flipping things for lifegain. Use Setessan tactics to get some bees and wipe half of opponent's board. Ultimate Xenagos, then play Atarka and flunge for the win.
Match 3: Abzan Aggro
G1: Lose stuff to Thoughtseize, removal, but get Stormbreath on board. Win.
G2: Both mull once. Opponent gets stuck on 2 mana: Plains and Llanowar Wastes. Llanowar Wastes wastes opponent. Finally finish opponent off with Stormbreath and Stratus Dancer flipped for no value.
Punt notes: Didn't play around Aetherspouts against Jeskai control and was punished once. Attacked with monstrous Stormbreath before using Setessan Tactics against GW Devotion. Had to throw away Shaman of the Great Hunt to kill Whisperwood as a result.
twicky: That list wasn't innovative enough for you? How about this?
4 Kiora's Follower
3 Yisan, the Wanderer Bard
1 Daring Thief
4 Wall of Frost
3 Silumgar Sorcerer
1 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
1 Sarkhan Unbroken
4 Profaner of the Dead
2 Clever Impersonator
4 Outpost Siege
2 Prophet of Kruphix
2 Retraction Helix
2 Gather Courage
Right, so top of my head here. I deliberately dodged all the usual suspects, which is extreme, but I'm certain a strong deck could be made without the standard morph package or dragons package. Not likely top tier, but it's virtually impossible to have multiple equally top-tier decks in a single clan and archetype.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
This being the competitive side of the forums our discussions are more focused on higher tournament play than FNM.
If you were giving results from an 8 man daily on MTGO I could give it moreally credit. Though your decks does highlight some future sleepers. I think silumgar's sorcerer and profaner are strong cards we'll likely see play after rotation.
That being said playing different cards for the sake of different cards stops working at a certain point and I think it's highly unadvisable most of the time. So when I saw this debate, I was initially a bit torn. I think it's good to try stuff with purpose. However, given the power level of this format I think there are clear choices at every slot. I know there is this perception that it's all contextual and so many options. I disagree. If you see different cards go in different slots on curve it is the balance of things the deck needs to be doing and taking the necessary hit against just playing the better cards at each slot. I'm not saying there isn't a bit of a moving target here, but there really aren't that many choices and generally going against the grain is wrong. The only real limitation is mana cost. So if you can't play double red in your green midrange deck then you can't play Thunderbreak Regent.
But when it comes to choosing mana there are always trade offs, and my approach early on is play every 2 and 3 color green deck (sometimes 4 mana permitting) to figure out what I should be doing. To do this I run it against the different classifications of viable strategies in the metagame identify the holes. There are always holes. The key thing is in any color choice identify the viable spectrum of decks and reduce it to a few archetypes. Once I've done that identify the the color combinations and strategies that are just worst versions of a different combination. Usually this gets me to a point where it's a short list. And I try identify ways to reverse bad matchups or weaknesses without giving up room elsewhere. Eventually I come down to a few candidates.
The important thing during this whole process is making sure you are critical enough. See this is a high power format. The only thing that makes this different then Alara Zen is nothing is closing the games fast enough. Sure you can use that information to loosen certain constraints but you should be operating under the assumption. If everyone was making the optimum decisions from that standpoint the format would be a lot tighter and that's a good way of tuning out optimal efficiency. This format is loose largely because of the perception of it being so (when UB is a top deck this is always the case). It's going to start tightening up. There is a good reason Prognostic Sphinx is not seeing play anymore even if it beautifully blocks dragons. There is a reason Clever Impersonator has never been a thing. There is a reason Profaner hasn't quite been able to make the move over to the maindeck. It's not saying you can't do that, but at a certain point it stops being about combatting individual cards and it becomes about wholistically what you are doing. And in my opinion if it's being defensive you best be doing the best possible thing in the format. I know my latest lists are more defensive but it's a recognition of where they fit in the format and they are still incredibly proactive. Still I recognize that as a weakness. I have a strategy to overcome that in most of my deck design and sideboarding plans based on Role Invalidation but that's a topic for a different post.
The danger of different cards is skewed results due to people not expecting it, and the fact that they can line up nicely against certain other popular cards in the format. The problem is as soon as they don't line up or the opponent gets exactly what you are doing or the metagame is just a slight bit different than you expect you self sabotaged your power level. I've done this a ton before. Even with subtle role player choices. Fighting cards with cards is usually a losing battle. It's better to shift what you are doing to battle what they are doing. Sometimes these look like the same thing. If you side out your expensive spells and bring in a bunch of cheap removal against red you aren't just fighting cards with cards. You are pushing your resource transformation down the curve and using more trades to leverage your slightly better threats. Sometimes that doesn't actually work well enough and you have to find other ways like life gain to attack the strategy. But it's more than saying my Courser is fighting your Zurgo because it has 2 power and Zurgo only has 2 toughness. Removal is really the only place you can do that card on card analysis and then it just comes down to numbers. It's sort of reason I'm not a huge removal advocate since it can still line up properly and you need to play a certain density of removal to relieve that pressure. I often spend a lot of time figuring out how to avoid needing removal.
A good exercise in that is the recent Abzan Satyr Wayfinder Metamorph Deck that eschews Bile Blight. People have been commenting on the list saying they don't see how it has a good red matchup. The best pro commentary I've seen was from Top Level Magic with Chapin and Flores. Chapin nails it. Flores doesn't even see it at first. The funny thing was it was also incredibly obvious to me as well probably since I'd done the same exercise in Temur. When you play Wayfinder, Deathmist, Powerful cards you don't need as much cheap spot removal. You can lower your land count increase your density and the time you buy lets you convert into more powerful things that negate the need to use lower value cards.
My point is more often than not real innovation is taking an already good card and realizing it's exactly what something needs even if the text on the card wouldn't lead you see it immediately. Sure in the first couple weeks there are completely different areas to find. But after that it's about figuring out the best ways to approach a problem. This generally narrows the card pool. It does give room to come from way outside but more often than not it's about Gerry T'ing it. The ability to spitball lists is great, and it's what I always love about Patrick Chapin. You give him a card pool he will give you V 0.1 of every deck in the format. But the sad reality is most decks aren't good enough because the cards don't do enough in their roles. However, if you can figure out how to shift the elements so they do or a trivial way to reverse a bad matchup without losing your normal stance it is a game changer. This is usually found through subtle manipulation of role players to change the fluidity of how the deck can jockey for position. So for me ultimately, while it starts at a place of discovery, it really comes down to fundamentally finding archetypes that can adjust their window of attack suitably to address the popular strategies. If you hear me lamenting about my lists I almost constantly say the timing isn't right. It sounds ambiguous and it definitely is hard to pinpoint but more often than not it just comes down to mana and curve concerns and probability. The fact that on the surface this often has so little to do with the cards themselves might lead you to believe the cards don't matter as much, but what the cards do at each slot shift the balance of pressure that is put on all the other slots. If those choices don't withstand the pressure the deck will fail. This level of scrutiny will often really show which cards are the best choices. Coincidentally or not it's typically the obvious choice (or rather the same choice everyone else has come to). So straying from that typically needs a really really good reason. But those reasons are rarely the text on the cards but more the deck needs X and this is the way I can see fulfilling it. But that only comes after really optimizing everything else and running out of obvious options. Sometimes it's just worse, and you just have to concede this gap. Sometimes it's enough, sometimes you move on. If you aren't aiming for or at top tier there is probably something better to be doing.
PS. Still happy with Purphoros so far.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
You misread me. When I said dodged the usual suspects, I meant the deck list avoids top cards. Just to highlight that there's plenty of room to innovate. That list is 100% untested untried brainstorming. Definitely not a recommended list, and if I pursued it, I would bring back some old standbys, though not the morphs because they are counter to the list's strategy.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
As for the Sphinx list, I stand on its worthiness. It is definitely the best performing deck I've ever played, better for me than GR devotion, or Sultai Whip during FRF. I'm confident I could take on a PPTQ with it, and do well despite my not being a highly skilled player. And it's not just because it's rogue. Local grinders know what I'm playing but usually fall to it anyway.
As to why it's good, it is doing "the most powerful thing in the format", namely Den/Deathmist/Whisperwood and works to maximize their effectiveness, while slowing the opposition (mostly by the true green way of attacking and blocking). That Sphinx is not the most powerful card in standard but it is ideal for the roles it fills in this deck.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
You've probably gone through this exercise yourself but for the sake of justifying your list humor me. So you have identified your powerful thing: Protector/Deathmist/Whisperwood. First 2 things one would observe about this is you aren't maximizing on it, and the plan is mono green. The first is just a question of consistency. Why 3 Deathmist Raptor and 3 Den Protector? The number of each suggests that you typically want to draw one of each but you are fine not drawing them or only finding one late game and don't particularly want to risk having 2 of them early on. That largely is why I only play 3 Den Protector myself since that isn't the main plan of my list. Rattleclaw gives Deathmist Raptor value anyway without having to invest in more cards for it. But why not the full number? I'm pretty sure it's a curve concern. With the Courser's and the dorks you are rounding out at 18 cards in the sub 4 drop proactive slots already. You are concerned about threat density. The trade off suggests there may be better Deathmist/Den Protector decks. I'm not saying that's where the comparison should be but it's a consideration.
The second is being mono green we have a pretty large range to compare similar decks with similar plans from 1 to 3 colors. So why blue and only blue? Maindeck it supports Prognostic Sphinx and Negate. Sideboard there are a few other cards. Most notably a lot of double blue cost cards that are generally not seen in any lists. I am not one to condemn a few spicy ones. A list like this can leverage it's mana uniquely for a deck with blue in it, but you really have to weigh the opportunity cost versus what other cards can play those roles in different colors. In some cases it is just recognizing we don't have Hero's Downfall and need something and will have to go with a card that is clunkier or more narrow. How does that weigh against what blue brings that is actually better? Polymorphist Jest and to some degree Plummet are clearly concessions. Is there anything that blue does uniquely that gives this list an edge? If the answer is just permission there are options possibly 3 color that aren't so blue. To me this is sort of like the debate between Arbor Colossus and Stormbreath Dragon at 5. There are good arguments and synergies that support both cards but you have to really weigh out the cost of the more reactive card. I'm not trying to slag the Sphinx on power level and I am pretty sure understand the role it is playing. It's more a question of why that role exists? Is Sphinx a worse Ojutai, and is Whisperwood/Metamorph better served with Mastery of the Unseen and Dromoka's Command.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Why 3 Deathmist Raptor and 3 Den Protector? To be honest, I suspect 4 Raptor and 2 Protector is a better plan because the latter is best played when I have 5 mana, and I don't have a lot of room there. I'm still aiming to trade for one more raptor, but nobody has any.
5 mana is really the key to this list, and as a consequence 25 land, 8 dorks and 2 Coursers make that happy smoothly while anything less starts making things difficult.
As for Blue, those counter spells and that scry are the reason this deck functions as well as it does, and I daresay more reliably than the standard green/red devotion (which I played before this). Being able to play a big creature and keep it there stops aggro and also stops control. It's been very effective.
Why only blue? Well that's why I'm in this thread. I think there are possibilities with better removal or other effects that could make things even stronger. I just haven't so far been convinced what to swap around. One idea is to go Sultai with Wayfinder and Cut. Murderous Cut could definitely supplant Setessan Tactics and Plummet. Another is to add white for Mastery of the Unseen. Or I could add red and replace Colossus with Sarkhan Unbroken. Temur would be the easiest because Rattleclaw, but I'm open.
As for the Sphinx itself, it is actually proving itself the best card in the deck, bar none. In its role here it might (well, probably not) actually *better* than Ojutai because I have limited permission, and Sphinx doesn't expose itself by attacking. (Or, I could be all wet on this point.) Obviously Anticipate is better than Scry 3, but only slightly. I get to set up my next Courser land, next manifest, next draw, and don't fear Downfall. Point is, I'm often in a situation where I have a Sphinx and Courser, and they downfall Courser as I attack with the Sphinx repeatedly digging through the deck. With Ojutai, it would be attack and die, or else sit hoping a counter shows, even as I'm not using it it.
Bottom line, the list crushes control by design. It's tuned to cause trouble for Abzan Aggro and midrange dragons. I'm not aware of other green decks with a similar profile. My weakness is limited removal, but generally my guys are bigger so it's not usually a problem.
My fear in splashing is that a weaker manabase will break something that's clearly working, but I'm game to investigate.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
2x Forest
2x Island
3x Mountain
2x Shivan Reef
1x Yavimaya Coast
2x Mana Confluence
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Temple of Abandon
2x Temple of Mystery
4x Frontier Bivouac
Creatures - 23
4x Sylvan Caryatid
2x Frost Walker
1x Stratus Dancer
3x Courser of Kruphix
4x Savage Knuckleblade
1x Boon Satyr
2x Surrak, the Hunt Caller
1x Thunderbreak Regent
4x Stormbreath Dragon
1x Whisperwood Elemental
1x Sarkhan Unbroken
Spells - 13
3x Stubborn Denial
3x Wild Slash
3x Lightning Strike
1x Stoke the Flames
2x Crater's Claws
1x Rending Volley
4x Disdainful Stroke
3x Epic Confrontation
1x Roast
3x Anger of the Gods
3x Flamewake Phoenix
I took John Lubrano's top 16 list from StarCity Worcester as my base list since I didn't have any experience with Temur in this standard, and subbed a few cards around that I didn't have. After that I came here and read the past few pages of this thread and got pretty inspired about the list. Lots of good discussion happening here. It was you guys who guided me to Epic Confrontation in the sideboard as a replacement for the Roasts that I was missing. Wow did epic confrontation do a lot of work for me tonight, that and Anger of the Gods won me a lot of post board games.
I have a few odd choices in here compared to other lists going around and I'll take a minute to talk about those.
Stratus Dancer - I only had 3 Stubborn Denial sitting around so I put this in as the 4th counter spell. I really liked the option to cast it 2nd turn to put on some early pressure. I only ended up drawing and casting it once in the 5 rounds I played and my opponent knew what it was because he saw it off of Courser. So I didn't really get a good test of how well he worked in the deck, but I did have a few times where Stubborn Denial just wasn't what I wanted so I like not having 4. For now I'll stick with Stratus Dancer and see how it goes.
Flamewake Phoenix - I put this in because I felt it was a good recurring threat against control, that also let me get more agressive in game 2 scenarios where I was on the play. As a 3 drop that dosn't turn on Ferocious or Formidable I can't say I'm at all in love with this guy. I didn't play against control at all tonight, and in the one game I sided them in(mostly just to try them out) I didn't draw any. So I may test further or I may replace them, not sure yet.
A quick recap of what I played against:
Round 1 G/W Aggro(2-0)
Round 2 R/G Devotion (2-0)
Round 3 Temur Midrange (2-1)
Round 4 R/G Dragons (2-1)
Round 5 B/W Warriors (2-0)
I was able to trade for 2 more Thunderbreak Regent tonight so I'll be putting those in replacing Boon Satyr and a Frost Walker. And possibly trying a single Haven of the Spirit Dragon now that my Dragon count is a little higher. Also considering some number of Draconic Roar to replace Lightning Strike.
I feel like I could use some help with the sideboard. Like I said I am really not in love with Flamewake Phoenix, any suggestions for a replacement? Still not very experienced with this deck so I'm not too sure what it is weak against preboard.
@twicky_kid: Fine, I'm sold on Atarka. It's good to be able to close the door. And an over the top way to buy back value. There are two huge differences between my current list and when I tried Atarka before. Courser and Sarkhan. They allow you to play more mana without playing like 16 dorks or 25 lands. I'm thinking 23 lands (4 Elf, 4 Rattleclaw, 2 Cayartid). Sarkhan especially makes Atarka better.. Sarkhan at 5 mana, untapped land Sarkhan +, means you can back to back it. Best case as soon as T3-T4. Once you are playing more dorks proactively you don't need as much like Draconic Roars.. So I am in a phase of re-adjusting. It also changes the board plan. The Bees plan doesn't matter as much this way, so I have room for more powerful cards. I think this puts me back on Seismic Rupture and Epic Confrontation. But I could be wrong. I know I shouldn't be concerned about it but the black aggro decks seem to always have my number when I go this way. I also have been playing close attention to some of the recent lists. Top Level Podcast ended this week with a whole discussion on Temur Dragons, basically brewing along this line.
I think the biggest tension here is between Dragons and Knuckleblade. After going to more mana dorks I can see how I could support Knuckleblade. But I'm still suspect of it's timing. I think Deathmist is still a better blend with the dragon plan. I will probably post a refined list later today.
Stratus Dancer is fine, it's just a lot lower impact in random game 1's I think than the proactive plan unless you have absurd time to set up. To me I'd play a Den Protector in that sort of slot. It's basically the same thing but it gives more flexibility. It's a small thing though. My Den Protectors are often Stratus Dancer's anyway (ie.. by back a permission spell).
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Today I was trying something a little different. It's probably a bit too cute. Cut the Den Protector main and play my more typical Aggressive midgame. The concept here is I wanted more Deathmist Raptors than my opponent in the first 4 turns and I wanted to able to cut on Draconic Roar which doesn't promote my board early as like to. To compensate for playing these lines I reintroduce Shaman of the Great Hunt. Basically I get super aggressive 134 starts, and if the board stalls I can draw a ton of cards into Atarka.
Consider:
4 Frontier Biovac
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Temple of Abandon
1 Temple of Epiphany
2 Forest
3 Mountain
1 Mana Confluence
4 Yavimaya Coast
2 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
Creatures(27):
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
2 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Deathmist Raptor
3 Courser of Kruphix
2 Alesha, Who Smiles at Death
2 Shaman of the Great Hunt
4 Thunderbreak Regent
3 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Dragonlord Atarka
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
3 Sarkhan Unbroken
4 Magma Spray
1 Stubborn Denial
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Back to Nature
2 Den Protector
2 Hornet Nest
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Mob Rule
This looks like a pile but what it allows me to do is keep a Atarka plan pretty much always postboard. If Atarka is my Anger of the Gods so to speak it means I just want a million shocks in the board. If I generally don't care about my opponents plans unless they can race me in the first few turns, let's just free us space and screw stuff like Roast or Fighting. I realize how narrow this approaches play is, and I'm not completely sold but for sake of experiment it's a game when the ground is being locked down by Deathmist/Protectors anyway. This atleast gives an aggressive angle. We really haven't had that good of an angle since Rabblemaster started being bad. That being said the Temur lists right at the time of Khans probably would kill this deck. But the metagame has moved very far from there.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
I'm not understanding the purpose of 2 Alesha, Who Smiles at Death. How do you even activate her? 1 Mana Confluence and 2 Sylvan Caryatid hardly seem like enough access to W/B.
Yeah it was for pure Stats. I'm not even sure if there is anything worth bringing back. Like maybe a Courser or Rattleclaw? I was looking for a 3 power first striker for less than 4 mana. That or indestructible. As stated I wanted more Deathmist Raptors or rather cards good against Deathmist Raptor and Den Protector. Keeping Fleecemane Lion at Bay is nice too although those decks will probably try some Dromoka trickery. I was basically seeing if there was a way I could avoid playing Draconic Roar. I mean it's a small thing but there are zero dead cards against control main. And it's a decent stance to take against on the ground aggro. You'd rather be casting proactive cards than reactive most cases anyway and First Strike makes tokens, Foundry Street Denizen, and even Swiftspear just awkward enough. Sure they will just burn it but having just more of those annoying 3's is nice. If you ever stick the mana dork, it even potentially opens you up postboard to 3 drop, Spray. That's why I wanted Spray in the board, I think 1 mana makes all the difference here. Mind you this sort of plan is one in which something like Feed the Clans is passable. You are assuming here you will land and stick a 4 power creature since you are apologetically leaving the mana ramp in. I just worry that while powerful it's too situational and may not be needed. The assumption is that you bring Magma Spray in against the other color aggro decks and in the mana dork green mirrors. If your opponent is trying to cast Atarka off anything other than Sylvan Caryatid you should be in the cheapest mana possible killing their dorks and progressing your own board. Something like Arc Lightning could be better (if they aren't Elf Caryatid) but that's your whole turn. However if you turn is Caryatid, shoot your Elf, you are in way better shape all things being equal. Because of the potential for Disdainful Stroke getting there first or ahead on mana in general gives you a huge advantage over the non-blue variants all things being equal.
The problem with the approach I posted is it isn't particularly good against Knuckleblade or Mantis Rider. I mean Knuckleblade looks pretty silly against Deathmist atleast. It's related to why I started hedging with Shaman again. A 3 power first Striker is good through a lot of early boards even on the attack outside of like Courser. Often enough you can get an early attack or 2 in and then you just play defensive duty on the ground while your fliers and planeswalkers win the game. With Deathmist and Alesha it isn't hard for a surprise Shaman drop to turn on Shaman's draw ability. This typically means that if the opponent is trying to win on the ground it takes considerable effort them to flank you. An active Xenagos seals that. Of course this means a less reactive plan to aggro so if something gets around it, it can be awkward. Hornet's Nest covers most of the ground. The thing is with enough fliers you have to just assume you will draw into dragons. So I think if you keep them off their Mentors, Grandmasters, Rabblemasters and Seeker's etc and concede to the T3/T4 Mantis Rider when you don't have Thunderbreak you are good in most places.
I did lose to Jeskai this morning but it was more that I didn't bring in the Sprays and Grandmaster basically single handedly beat me even if it was 2 Mantis Riders and an Ashcloud at the end. I played 2 Mardu decks this morning afterwards and brought in the sprays and it did exactly what I wanted which was force a big threats game where Disdainful Stroke and the fact that I have more Dragons than them eventually won the game. Well sort of, it forced a top deck war where I was able to use Rattleclaw to bring back 2 Deathmist Raptors that ultimately won me the game. I haven't had a chance for Alesha to shine yet mind you. So far it's just been an on curve attacker. I did just humiliate Abzan Control with a Elf, Deathmist, Alesha, Shaman, draw 3 cards game, where he went for End Hostilities but I drew into enough lands and threats to go Sarkhan Atarka your Siege Rhino.
EDIT:
I think I need to bring back one Epic Confrontation or Sessian Tactics just to deal with Master of Waves. While Mob Ruling them is incredibly satisfying having one earlier line is probably better. Since it's decent everywhere else I think the trade is -1 Magma Spray +1 Epic Confrontation.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
I've been playing Esper and losing to Abzan, GW Aggro, etc. I've tried this Temur deck out online and find I'm not really winning anymore than I did with Esper, but I haven't played Temur before either.
What drew me to this deck is Sarkhan, he seems like a great planeswalker. Stormbreath seems good now also.
Any opinions from the Temur experts? Is this the wrong build, the wrong time to play this build, etc?
Interesting, I missed that one somehow. The deck might be pretty good. It does a lot of the right stuff and then tries a few things that I haven't tried. I think it probably has too many spells but if I were to play that many spells that's a good mix (Draconic Roar, and Stubborn Denial are the best we have generally). The only thing I really dislike is the Rabblemaster and the Kiora and 11 taplands. Everything else seems on the level. In fact 11 taplands seems insanely bad. It's like you are playing the mana dorks just to stay on curve while all your lands come in tapped. 6 mana dorks is ambitious for that top end too. Maybe 6 and 24 lands is right but I'm dubious.
The sideboard is the most interesting thing to me. I've been seeing this trend of playing Anger to combat Deathmist Raptor decks and Aggro in general but it is so self sabotaging I think it's suspect. Like definitely bring it in against GW or Mono Red. But what about Abzan Megamorph. Probably not. Like if someone tried to bring Anger in against me they'd probably be disappointed. While it would keep me off Atarka ramp (it'd keep them off too mind you) a T3 Dragon puts you so far ahead of Anger even if they take out an Elf and a Deathmist. I mean what have they've been casting. Rending Volley I just don't get. I mean I've thought about the card but the 4 means it kills basically
2cards you care about Mantis Rider, and Ojutai. I meant care about. Ojutai is a funny card. It's both the best Dragon out there and the card that you want your opponent to play because it's like they took a mulligan. It does almost nothing against you in Temur. I guess it can be a 5 mana removal spell to trade with your 3 drops. But most of the time they don't want to block. I mean if it was Storm Crow atleast they would feel better chumping with it. It's difficult for most Ojutai players to accept that their card in these situations is worse than garbage. I think Ojutai is probably still worth countering, since it's a tempo play, but if you don't counter it and saved it for a real card I think that's respectable. Anyway my point is the card you needed that card to kill was Silumgar. If it did 5 damage I would play it religious. I'm gathering they couldn't have it kill Siege Rhino as well. But that is a trade I would make to allow me to lighten up on Roast. Everything else short of Brimaz in these colors dies to Draconic Roar or good old Magma Spray. I mean do you bring it in against Abzan since it kills Fleecemane Lion and half a Wingmate Roc?Other interesting ones. Arbor Colossus and Surrak. Arbor Colossus feels too much like switching gears. It's fine, but I wonder if it can't be served as something else. I've definitely had Arbor Colossus in the board before. The difficulty is the more aggressive opponent with fliers will have Valorous Stance. And Mardu will always have the Crackling Doom. It's basically just for the GR Dragons mirror. However, playing hasty 4 power creatures that are cheap generally has the same effect because you can force them on the defensive. I think the card is questionable. Sometimes it's really good, other times they have removal. Which I guess goes the same for Surrak. I obviously played this card a ton in the fall and haven't really gone back to him. I think the card has gotten a lot better the last couple weeks. I've been tempted to try it again. Mainly that I think people have been lowering their removal count so he's like a flash blocker that does some work. Unfortunately Deathmist Raptor makes this and most non-dragon aspects of Temur a bit embarrassing. Obviously this is for the more control matchups (even Abzan Control arguably) but to me it's more of do I really need it if those match-ups are already really good.
In all I think a lot of the numbers pretty right 3 Sarkhan, 2 Xenagos, 3 Stubborn Denial, 2 Disdainful Strokes etc.. Just that the Anger plan is a trap even though it seems one of the only ways this deck can deal in certain matchups. It's a shame they couldn't fit atleast 2 Haven since that would probably be enough of a push in certain matchups they could lighten up the need for other cards for attrition. I think the mana/dork base to Atarka is suspect. 30 mana sources is pretty low to play a 7 in this sort of deck. I felt 31 was too low. 33 seems about right. I'm sure you flood and get there sometimes but there are a lot of cards that you can be drawing in the meantime that actually do very little. The fact the decks 3's are just Rabblemaster and Courser put you in a place that is both easy to stump aggressively and defensively. I will say Rabblemaster does create an interesting tension in that Hornet's Nest lines up so well against it but not the rest of the deck. So you might be able to trade it off for your opponents 3 drop at some point. So it's almost like a bad Deathmist Raptor. However, if the opponent is doing nothing the first couple turns it might win a game which is considerable. That being said that's the limit on Rabblemaster. As soon as you do anything more on the ground with this sort of list they bring in Hornet's Nest and Rabblemaster is just terribly bad. Let's see what else. I could go for one more anti enchantment card in the sideboard. Oh and Keranos. The card is fine and gives some grinding staying power. It's unlikely to become a god but maybe the card advantage is good. I can't help but wonder if I'd just want the 4th Sarkhan if I was prepared to play that card.
In general this deck plays it's early turns safe which is good but it's unable to present aggressive starts as easily outside of Rabblemaster which can often do nothing and you are playing too many tapped lands and only 2 elfs to prevent it from likely really getting the jump. From a numbers game it means the odds are pretty low there. I think it severely weakens the deck for all things you pick up from the scrying and better density later. The ferocity count is low enough that 3 Denials main is pushing it. I like the card a lot but trading the elf density for non-creature spell density seems like a weak trade off. These are all subtle things and they all have trade offs but I think it generally means I see this deck doing much better against a known field than an abstract one. The timing is a bit manic and not in the way that I like. It's the difference between being to power over Abzan and being dead in the water to Siege Rhino unless you draw Roast. The more you play it safe the first few turns the more pressure you put on your midgame cards. This does make Denial better since like a few removal spells from your opponent are so much worse here. Temur has the advantage of being more unknown but I mean how long can you play up to the point the opponent isn't expecting Stubborn Denial. That is probably what got them there. Denial is a beating if you don't play around it. I think that list while getting a lot of the core stuff right is still like half a dozen cards off.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Basically, Kiora is making up for something the deck naturally could have in most cases by taking a more proactive stance earlier. But without that it makes Kiora look much better in the list. But drawing your one of is a lot more risky than changing the plan at a fairly minimal cost. The fact there is a 2nd in the board suggests the card must be a trump somewhere. I'm not quite sure where that is. For the most part it feels to me like a conditional sorcery speed tumble magnet (with albeit a pretty sweet ultimate).
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
4 Frontier Biovac
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Temple of Abandon
1 Temple of Epiphany
2 Forest
3 Mountain
1 Mana Confluence
4 Yavimaya Coast
3 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
Creatures(29):
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
2 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Deathmist Raptor
3 Courser of Kruphix
2 Shaman of the Great Hunt
4 Thunderbreak Regent
3 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Dragonlord Atarka
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
3 Sarkhan Unbroken
3 Magma Spray
1 Stubborn Denial
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Back to Nature
1 Epic Confrontation
2 Den Protector
2 Hornet Nest
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Mob Rule
In basic add a land and add a 3rd Atarka. There isn't really anything cute about it. Jamming raw power does things. I think the board is probably not quite correct but the matchups I've been seeing have been so narrow I haven't had the opportunity to really judge if it's that certain decks don't exist anymore or that I just haven't been facing them. Maybe I just land Atarka before it matters. Seriously it's all about who lands Atarka first. So if you can disrupt them, stop the first one coming down, and play yours.. you typically win. All I've been playing have been Abzan, GRx Devotion, RBx Dragon lists. With that sort of field a lot of cards in my sideboard seem wanting (I'm looking at you Den Protector and Back to Nature). It's possible that things have just shifted enough I don't have to worry about certain matchups. It's also possible as I said before Atarka > all. You'd think the UB decks would change to deal with that, it doesn't even seem to hurt me that much game 1. Postboard I'm right back to easily beating them. I wonder if there is just this attachment to Abzan that isn't justified that is skewing the metagame where the deck isn't actually particularly good against most decks but passable in enough places it's creating a rock paper scissors that has no business existing.
EDIT:
The biggest thing that might not be obvious is actually how important Shaman of the Great Hunt is. It isn't immediately obvious looking at the list. You can't usually leverage it purely aggressively. However it's basically a repeatble Harmonize. I mean consider a card like Tasigur. Admittedly it has nicer stats as a 4/5 so it isn't as fragile and it can be played on the cheap, but when you compare the activated abilities I don't even think it's close Shaman is better. What's awesome about the card is in high removal grindy matchups it often feels like having more Dragons. Like against against Mardu where everything is trading. Do they not just trade their Thunderbreak Regent for it. So it's completely servable from an aggressive stance but when the game stalls there is no single better ca engine in Standard.
I know it's a bit of the rub ins but quite often these days with like UB Tasigur activations I give them Dig Back if I think I can win in a turn. Often a counter spell or removal spell is more disruptive and if they have to use Dig they probably don't have mana to do much else. The as I mentioned I've lost only a handful of games to UB in the last few months and 2 out of like 8 of them have been the opponent Ashiok Shaman, and winning that way. One of the opponent was smart enough to let me kill Ashiok instead of chump with Shaman. Even at the reduced rate that they can use it, it's still more powerful than any of their draw spells since it's repeatable +1 at the minimum. Dig is really only +1. Eot pour 8 mana into it is basically Jace Ingenuity.
Against decks with red burn it actually isn't as bad as it looks even if it's where it's at it's weakest. Not against say mono red, but it's passable against Jeskai because if you can connect with a dragon once with it on the board, they pretty much can't remove it. Like a 5/5 Thunderbreak Regent is pretty much game there outside of Valorous Stance.. a 5/5 Stormbreath is game. It would seem like this requires all too much work and to a certain degree really you just in enough games drop Atarka and move on, but if you stabilize in many matchups or you are playing into endless doom blades it pushes this angle that can take over the game.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Well value and Deathmist seem a good plan, plus double mana symbols turn on Xenagod easier. 25 lands with 4 Havens isn't too hard. And finally I know a least a couple people are all about this card Sagu Mauler. This plays into all the plans. It plays with Xenagod, it plays with Deathmist, and it gets under Disdainful Stroke and it plays some late game resilience. Generally not quite good enough, but Xenagod makes it reasonable even against opposing Raptors. Which can't be said about cards like Knuckleblade which is another card which covers a bit of that domain.
So this deck roughly is based off Zvi Mowshowitz's Finest Hour version of Mythic although we have a bit less flexibility in our lands to effectively go up to 26-27. But there are less dorks here. It's less explosive but the curve shouldn't be too ambitious as there is a lot more potential value to be gained off less mana mid to late game.
4 Frontier Biovac
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Temple of Abandon
1 Temple of Epiphany
2 Forest
3 Mountain
1 Mana Confluence
4 Yavimaya Coast
4 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
Creatures(30):
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
2 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Deathmist Raptor
3 Courser of Kruphix
4 Thunderbreak Regent
2 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Xenagos, God of Revels
2 Sagu Mauler
3 Dragonlord Atarka
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
3 Sarkhan Unbroken
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Back to Nature
1 Den Protector
2 Hornet Nest
1 Seismic Rupture
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Surrak Dragonclaw
1 Mob Rule
The sideboard is probably all wrong. Maybe the control matchup isn't as bad as I anticipate. Maybe there is no need to be quite so dedicated main deck. The board might not even have relevant plans given how much more brute force the list is. This is still a bit rough but it's interesting to me at the least that Temur might be better at playing the game plan than Naya simply from access to better mana and more 3 color cards close to the strategy. And in so probably has a better chance shoring up control which I anticipate to be the worst matchup.
For those wondering I beat mono red with this list just now. It might not be as bad as it looks. But there is definitely a deficit of certain elements in the board.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
4 Frontier Biovac
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Temple of Abandon
1 Temple of Epiphany
1 Temple of Mystery
2 Forest
3 Mountain
1 Mana Confluence
4 Yavimaya Coast
3 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Deathmist Raptor
3 Courser of Kruphix
4 Thunderbreak Regent
2 Shaman of the Great Hunt
2 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Dragonlord Atarka
Other(4):
4 Sarkhan Unbroken
3 Stubborn Denial
3 Magma Spray
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Den Protector
2 Hornet Nest
1 Stormbreath Dragon
This is quite a departure from what I was doing before and it's back to being very purist. I just kept on noticing that Xenagod and Sarkhan were fighting for slot timing wise and I'd almost always play Sarkhan because Sarkhan better ensured Atarka. Since Sarkhan + untapped land let's you immediately play Atarka on curve. And honestly Atarka was pretty much always better than Sagu Mauler. I mean if you aren't winning with Atarka on board Sagu isn't going to do it. Either they counter it or it enters play and they kill it, then you have use for another. So I cut Xenagos.. Basically I didn't really need the help at 4, and Raptors can hold the board. I'd rather up my chances of early plays so I went to all 12 dorks. This means a large number of draws have the potential of going.
T1 Elf
T2 2 Drop Mana Dork
T3 Sarkhan
T4 Atarka
Even the Xenagos nut draw only helps you accelerate more 4 drops ie:
T1 Elf
T2 Morph Rattleclaw
T3 Flip Rattleclaw, play Xenagos +1, Thunderbreak Regent
T4 Atarka
Both boards are actually incredibly similar, but Sarkhan gives you more play and is more powerful on it's own. It's not like you can play them any time before T3 without ramp so the timing at 4 mana even if you only have the single accelerator still usually can be filled by 3 drop tapland which better sets up the 5 drop anyway. You don't have to worry about protecting Xenagos for a turn by chumping with the the 2/2.
But that same draw lets you play Sarkhan with a dork untapped, so if you so choose to chump you can actually immediately plus Sarkhan to keep the loyalty high and draw a card to up your chances of hitting land drops. With 4 Sarkhan's you are must more likely to draw multiples, so turns where you cash in Sarkhan play another are not too uncommon. This actually makes the Dragon density feel even higher since you are more likely to make Dragons with Sarkhan. They average 2 dragons now, which puts us near 20 Dragons range. The tension of this deck is to know when to go for Ramp or when to play a midrange game. It's not a bad problem to have. I haven't experienced this sort of feeling since playing like Fauna Shaman/Mythic Hybrids during Alara Zen. You can either try to value off your
VengevinesDeathmist Raptors or you can just play the Rattleclaw out early to ramp out a quick Atarka. Like do you play the T2 Deathmist or the 2nd Dork. Usually it's the 2nd Dork but there is some flexibility there.The weirdest inclusion is probably Surrak Dragonclaw. I'm still trying this one out. I just think the deck needs some lines to make things awkward for Control and it's a decent body at 5 mana for ambushing. Incidental game 1 advantages of letting Deathmist trample over has some fringe benefits. The plan against a number of decks is to side out some amount of ramp and Atarka's anyway but Surrak makes sure you can bridge that gap fine. Against UB you are already taxing their Downfalls and Ultimate Price doesn't hit it. Admittedly a deck full of Abzan Charms probably laughs at it, but atleast it's big enough to block and kill a Siege Rhino. I could just round it out with Stormbreaths or Icefall Regents but those are too much more of the same the deck already does. I like 4/4 dragons and the deck produces them en masse but I'm looking for something of a role player that supports the team that can also just win games on it's own.
EDIT:
Surrak is meh.. I think I'm going back to Shaman of the Great Hunt. It's a curve concern. Basically I want to be able to transform back into normal 8 dork deck against control and to do so I need atleast another power 4 drop.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Savage Knuckleblade
4 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
2 Sarkhan Unbroken
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Roast
2 Disdainful Stroke
4 Anger of the Gods
2 Dig Through Time
4 Frontier Bivouac
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Yavimaya Coast
3 Shivan Reef
3 Temple of Abandon
2 Temple of Mystery
1 Temple of Epiphany
2 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Encase in Ice
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Reality Shift
1 Destructive Revelry
3 Hornet Nest
2 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
1 Surrak Dragonclaw
Any thoughts? I'm missing I Shivan Reef or two but other than that I can make the whole deck.
Match 1: Jeskai Dragon Control
G1: lots of trading then another Stormbreath for the win.
G2: Get to 5 mana, Slam Surrak Dragonclaw at opponent EOT. Win.
Match 2: GW Devotion
G1: Elvish Mystic into facedown Rattleclaw into Sarkhan Unbroken into Dragonlord Atarka into opponent scoop
G2: Keep hand without accelerants. Watch huge board develop on opposite side of table while twiddling thumbs, scoop.
G3: Mulligan hand without accelerants. Accelerate into Xenagos, the Reveler. Opponent gets double Mastery online with Whisperwood and starts flipping things for lifegain. Use Setessan tactics to get some bees and wipe half of opponent's board. Ultimate Xenagos, then play Atarka and flunge for the win.
Match 3: Abzan Aggro
G1: Lose stuff to Thoughtseize, removal, but get Stormbreath on board. Win.
G2: Both mull once. Opponent gets stuck on 2 mana: Plains and Llanowar Wastes. Llanowar Wastes wastes opponent. Finally finish opponent off with Stormbreath and Stratus Dancer flipped for no value.
Punt notes: Didn't play around Aetherspouts against Jeskai control and was punished once. Attacked with monstrous Stormbreath before using Setessan Tactics against GW Devotion. Had to throw away Shaman of the Great Hunt to kill Whisperwood as a result.
Deck Changes: -1 Xenagos main, +1 Sarkhan Unbroken main, -1 Outpost Siege side, +1 Surrak Dragonclaw side
3 Forest
4 Frontier Bivouac
2 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
2 Mountain
2 Shivan Reef
2 Temple of Abandon
1 Temple of Epiphany
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Yavimaya Coast
Creatures(29):
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Den Protector
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
1 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Deathmist Raptor
1 Savage Knuckleblade
1 Shaman of the Great Hunt
3 Thunderbreak Regent
4 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Dragonlord Atarka
2 Stubborn Denial
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
2 Sarkhan Unbroken
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Disdainful Stroke
2 Setessan Tactics
2 Stratus Dancer
4 Hornet Nest
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Outpost Siege
1 Arbor Colossus
1 Surrak Dragonclaw
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.