Aetherspout is good but awkward. Been there. It's best against other green decks, and try to get much value off it in a slug fest ground stall scenario. Might as well have that 2 mana unsummon there.
Prophet really needs to be in a deck where you are going much bigger and can keep drawing cards. Admittedly I've never liked Prophet so there is some bias there I guess. But the format is sort of one where it slow rolls the first couple turns and then 3-4-5 is a complete tempo battle. Prophet is good if you are still at parity on T4. I wouldn't bet on it. A lot of decks can basically overrun you the turn after Prophet comes down. The format is getting snappier again.
Mind you just because you have access to a color doesn't mean you have to do what that color does. I think straight up trade mana for cards is not good in most Temur lists. It's the same deck that might consider Prophet that would want to play Dig Through Time. I don't see how a Temur Tempo deck is better than a Jeskai one at all. Basically the green gives you a jump ahead for sure in mana but down on cards. That sort of trade off makes you want to represent a board that is ahead a few turns rather than take advantage of more cheap spells. If you are committed to the board why not just finish the game rather than drawing cards.
Green Devotion invalidates things in Temur in a pure proactive Plan A sort of way. However, there is nothing to stop you from playing Green Devotion with Red and Blue cards as a mechanism to deal with Greens weaknesses.
1. Lack of innate card advantage that doesn't make the deck worse against sweepers. And even to keep ahead of a certain amount of one for one removal. Domri's exit hurt here.
2. An awkward mirror situation. I mean there is stuff like Tactics but it's not great.
It's not unlike other splashes already being explored. I like red splash in general for these issues. Black splash is interesting in that it is really good against the mirror and tokens, but without CA it sort of falls on the Constellation subtheme generally which still isn't great against sweepers. Blue gives you the ability to play against control better and have tempo oriented catch alls. My thought is Temur Ascendancy is sort of a replacement for Domri Rade. It allows the deck to draw through 1 for 1 removal and get value against sweepers (slow role threats and they all have haste). Similarly I like Surrak in that sort of place. Blue could have some use in the mirror but I haven't leveraged it yet since red has been sufficient. It's possible Jund is just better but the CA problem leads you back to Constellations.
What I like about Ascendancy is it doesn't put any restrictions on your cards really other than be good. Bigger than your Opponents cards help a lot, but that's about it. It's possible there is a lacking of critical mass of synergy that prevents it from being good enough but that's the premise atleast. Mind you online I've been having some issues with aggro. I made a change today which seems kind of janky but let's me have a different avenue against aggro that has been working very well. So far I haven't lost a match against another green deck but that isn't saying much since I'm generally very good in green mirrors (3 Abzan, 2 Temur Monsters, 1 Temur Tempo, 2 GB Devotion, 1 GR Devotion, 1 Sultai Control, 1 Sultai Midrange).. No I did lose against a Sultai Control deck when I was playing a version with 23 lands. My rate against Mardu, Red, and Mono Black Aggro hasn't been nearly as good.
Not sure if the Nylea's Presence or the Anger's are right but it does let have early plays to curve out properly and it lets me board in a way that is less susceptible to my own Angers or opposing burn while not lowering my Devotion. So far Anger has been good but mostly since people don't play around it. But basically siding down to a Monsters deck is pretty easy in those matchups.
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Aetherspout is good but awkward. Been there. It's best against other green decks, and try to get much value off it in a slug fest ground stall scenario. Might as well have that 2 mana unsummon there.
Prophet really needs to be in a deck where you are going much bigger and can keep drawing cards. Admittedly I've never liked Prophet so there is some bias there I guess. But the format is sort of one where it slow rolls the first couple turns and then 3-4-5 is a complete tempo battle. Prophet is good if you are still at parity on T4. I wouldn't bet on it. A lot of decks can basically overrun you the turn after Prophet comes down. The format is getting snappier again.
Mind you just because you have access to a color doesn't mean you have to do what that color does. I think straight up trade mana for cards is not good in most Temur lists. It's the same deck that might consider Prophet that would want to play Dig Through Time. I don't see how a Temur Tempo deck is better than a Jeskai one at all. Basically the green gives you a jump ahead for sure in mana but down on cards. That sort of trade off makes you want to represent a board that is ahead a few turns rather than take advantage of more cheap spells. If you are committed to the board why not just finish the game rather than drawing cards.
Green Devotion invalidates things in Temur in a pure proactive Plan A sort of way. However, there is nothing to stop you from playing Green Devotion with Red and Blue cards as a mechanism to deal with Greens weaknesses.
1. Lack of innate card advantage that doesn't make the deck worse against sweepers. And even to keep ahead of a certain amount of one for one removal. Domri's exit hurt here.
2. An awkward mirror situation. I mean there is stuff like Tactics but it's not great.
It's not unlike other splashes already being explored. I like red splash in general for these issues. Black splash is interesting in that it is really good against the mirror and tokens, but without CA it sort of falls on the Constellation subtheme generally which still isn't great against sweepers. Blue gives you the ability to play against control better and have tempo oriented catch alls. My thought is Temur Ascendancy is sort of a replacement for Domri Rade. It allows the deck to draw through 1 for 1 removal and get value against sweepers (slow role threats and they all have haste). Similarly I like Surrak in that sort of place. Blue could have some use in the mirror but I haven't leveraged it yet since red has been sufficient. It's possible Jund is just better but the CA problem leads you back to Constellations.
What I like about Ascendancy is it doesn't put any restrictions on your cards really other than be good. Bigger than your Opponents cards help a lot, but that's about it. It's possible there is a lacking of critical mass of synergy that prevents it from being good enough but that's the premise atleast. Mind you online I've been having some issues with aggro. I made a change today which seems kind of janky but let's me have a different avenue against aggro that has been working very well. So far I haven't lost a match against another green deck but that isn't saying much since I'm generally very good in green mirrors (3 Abzan, 2 Temur Monsters, 1 Temur Tempo, 2 GB Devotion, 1 GR Devotion, 1 Sultai Control, 1 Sultai Midrange).. No I did lose against a Sultai Control deck when I was playing a version with 23 lands. My rate against Mardu, Red, and Mono Black Aggro hasn't been nearly as good.
Not sure if the Nylea's Presence or the Anger's are right but it does let have early plays to curve out properly and it lets me board in a way that is less susceptible to my own Angers or opposing burn while not lowering my Devotion. So far Anger has been good but mostly since people don't play around it. But basically siding down to a Monsters deck is pretty easy in those matchups.
Not sure why you would say Temur tempo is a poorer Jeskai tempo. We have access to as good or better tempo cards in Stubborn Denial, Savage Knuckleblade, and really the lynchpin Surrak Dragonclaw. We can also just put the game away as fast or faster than them. I can't tell you the number of games where a 6/6 Knuckleblade and Dragonclaw wins the game in one turn (+ sling a burn spell). We can also play the long game better than they can imho. One of the better players around here plays Jeskai Tempo and I've been way ahead in that MU, as well as against stuff like G/x devotion and aggro (B, R, etc.). I've also been testing out Feed the Clan (out of the SB) and it's been doing a lot better than I thought it would. 10 life is actually a lot (invalidating 3+ cards at times), backed up by counterspells and huge pressure (Knucks/Claw/Stormy).
Hmm.. Feed the clan is interesting. That's actually not bad rate. I mean I generally don't like only lifegain spells but 2 mana for 10 is decent. It's more than you are going to get off a Nylea Disciple. What's more interesting is knowing you have that in your future might push more into not taking risky blocks. It's definitely a card I missed possibly in my non-devotion based lists.
I guess when comparing Jeskai Tempo to Temur Tempo there is the advantage that your burn spells will deal with all their threats. But it's more that it is much easier for them to deal damage. I once did a comparison between Dreg Mangler and Loxodon Smiter and took Dreg Mangler since it took 3 turns for Smiter to catch up to Mangler on damage. So while cards like Knuckleblade allow pump in to put out much more damage from a single threat the investment of damage per mana cost is much lower. Even the fact that cards like Mantis Rider has Vigilance, and Seeker potential lifelink. It basically completely invalidates smaller aggro strategies. Still I will say being able to maindeck Anger seems pretty good. I've been looking for ways to do that. That seems like a reasonable way to do that. The only thing I really see in your list is it feels like it might be threat light in certain matchups. My experience against Jeskai is that their 5 drops don't matter. If they win it's because of the power of their 3 drops in quick succession. Knuckleblade does have the benefit of being bigger than any 4 drops. However any hand that doesn't have Knuckleblade might find itself behind. Still it looks close. If control becomes a thing I think it's a slightly better place to be.
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I dont like the idea aetherspouting a hornet queen because they usually do not attack with the whole fleet and leave behind a few death touch blockers. I have thought of using Polymorphist's Jest but it does not really deal with Genesis Hydra. i guess I am trying to find a sideboard card that can make the green devotion matchup better. So far I only have the bow.
I've tried a full-blown tempo version of Temur. The shell felt powerful, but the right combination isn't there yet. It's basically a G/U splash R deck. Here is where it currently stands:
The four Lightning Strike are anti-Mantis Rider precautions. I would love to run Magma Spray, but Jeskai is very popular.
Kiora, Hour of Need, and See the Unwritten are experiments, the last of which will probably get cut. I'm glad that others here had the idea to turn mana dorks into sphinx tokens. There's nothing I hate more than drawing a mana dork when I'm looking for gas, and 8 power of flyers for 5 mana is no joke. I'm running 1 because I want the best chances that it's not in my opening hand (happened multiple times on Friday when I was running 2 and it was nearly a dead card).
Dig Through Time was added to help when the hand runs dry. Splitting the difference between spells and creatures lead to a lot of topdecking situations. This deck has a hard time topdecking against Abzan and Mardu midrange ("good stuff" decks), especially since they have a bunch of kill spells and Thoughtseize. Fortunately, that means graveyard cards to delve away. Given the playtesting I did today, it's the best thing I could topdeck. The downside is drawing them early.
From my experience, Temur Charm is a mana leak before turn 5 or when opponents taps out, otherwise it's a removal spell. I've tried Trap Essence in the sideboard, but have yet to draw it. Icy Blast is a pure tempo card, and in practice against Abzan it prevents me from dying for a turn. This may get relegated to the sideboard (when it's good, however, it's GREAT, like against Jeskai).
Concerning the mana dorks, I don't want Elvish Mystic. Nearly half my land comes into play tapped - the scrying is HUGE! Caryatid helps with fixing and doesn't die to Magma Jet. I don't know if Kiora's Follower or Voyaging Satyr is better, so I'm testing both. I like the follower since I can attack and then untap the creature, but the satyr is easier to cast.
Sagu Mauler and Prognostic Sphinx are under review. The sphinx is hard to kill and fixes draws, so it will probably go up to 2, maybe 3. Sagu Mauler is harder to pinpoint given mana cost, but that hexproof goes a LONG way against Abzan and Mardu.
The sideboard is largely unknown. I've been trying Trap Essence, Soul of Ravnica, Negate, Disdainful Stroke, and Setessan Tactics. I think Nylea's Disciple or the gain 10 life spell might be appropriate since I usually only lose to Jeskai because of burn. I don't like the card that much, so I may settle with some Mistcutters since racing was my plan when playing my old standard Jund Monsters vs R/W Burn (I had a very good win rate post board).
CARDS TO BE REVIEWED - Thassa (fixes draws like a boss, but will probably never be animated), Genesis Hydra (it's almost always been better than See the Unwritten in practice), Jace the Living Guildpact (bounce and fixing draws in one package, Nissa (I own 1 and it's hard to find things not to love about her), Surrak (seems better in some matchups than others), Dissolve/Swan Song/insert,counter,magic,here
Edit: Here's my outlook for the Jeskai and Abzan post board
Jeskai - load up on Icy Blast (creatures), Negate (specifically for burn), and Disdainful Stroke (specifically for Dig Through Time). Game plan keep Mantis Riders off the board and race. I'm fine if they spend multiple burn spells to kill a 4/4 or 5/5 since it means the damage didn't go to my face.
Abzan (could also apply to Mardu) - Time to play the control game! Mana dorks can stabilize the field (they usually won't spend kill spells on non-Caryatid dorks, and I can strike a lion), Prognostic Sphinx, Nissa, Sagu Mauler, and Knuckleblade with 2U available are the preferred finishers. Icy Blast is fine in concert with a fatty. They topdeck extremely well, so card draw or more digs may find their way to my board.
I wish I was better at magic and could find the right cards for this deck to work.
I love Nissa, Kiora, Sagu Mauler, Arbor Collossus, Stormbreath and knuckle blade. I just don't know how to put them all in a deck that doesn't fold to monoblack aggro or jeskai tempo and yes I know anger works bbut it kills our mana dorks too.
Circle of Flame or Arc Lightning seems to be good against mono black aggro. Jeskai tempo I think is situational. If we are able to answer their Goblin Rabblemaster or Mantis Rider, they are going to have a hard time to move forward as well.
With the recent PT KTK result, especially top 8, it shows that creature curve is lower and supported by removal and control spells.
I've been working on a RUG Tempo list (sorry I can't bring myself to call it temur) but haven't gotten a lot of testing in with it yet. It definitely feels more like a real tempo deck than Jeskai though. I've played about 10 matches with this configuration so far and it's exceeded expectations.
Still needs a lot of tuning but basically you are just trying to get Knuckleblade or Rabblemaster on the table and keep it clear for them with bounce & counterspells. Plays like a real tempo deck. Sideboard let's you go longer and a few nods to the meta (destructive revelries for Ascendancy, mostly)
Singing Bell Strike has been surprisingly good. 6 mana is a lot-- hopefully you've killed them before they can pay for it.
Force Away doesn't feel great, but drawing a card is pretty nice upside when you've got Knucks or a Phoenix out.
I really like Hour of Need too, just not in the MB.
I'm underwhelmed by Stubborn Denial in testing so I took it out of the list, but maybe that is wrong.
Feed The Clan has potential since the deck has no other lifegain-- altho hopefully the games are over before it matters.
Lastly... other cards to consider- Crater's Claws, Harness By Force, Jeskai Windscout... hmmm, more to come. Anyhow, I think there is a strong deck in these colors be it tempo or midrange, I'm really surprised it had virtually no presence at the pro tour. Buy your Knuckleblades while they are cheap!
I think we move to the 3 and 4 mana spot over the 5 and 6. A card I really like more and more is Ashcloud Phoenix. He gets around the Rabble/Stoke Combo on turn 4 by sticking a 2/2 after dying and resiliant against Crackling doom a card at my meta).
Also think maybe Boon Satyr and Surrak should be looked at more. Flash is really great on creatures
The choice of 3 Rattleclaw Mystic seems kind of arbitrary. Are you specifically looking for a 2-drop in the creature slot? There's not enough copies to make it a consistent mana fixer (need 6-8 dorks for that), so if mana is your intent, you could cut some spells for a few more mana dudes, or cut the mystics altogether for 2 lands and something else.
I'm kind of surprised that Singing Bell Strike has been good. I would assume that in a grindy matchup my opponent would have the opportunity to untap it. I'll put that on my list of cards to try.
Voyage's End is an alternative to Force Away. You won't always be able to loot with force away, but you will always get to scry with the former. Regardless, I can see many scenarios where you cast a creature and leave up bounce mana to recover it in case of a kill spell.
Given that you want to be full tempo, I think Keranos is better in the main board. You can buy several turns with tempo cards while bolting them or drawing creatures/burn, neither of which is a bad thing!
The choice of 3 Rattleclaw Mystic seems kind of arbitrary. Are you specifically looking for a 2-drop in the creature slot?
Thanks for your feedback! You may well be right about the Mystics, but they serve a somewhat unique role in the deck. It's great to have one in your opening hand but I'm not relying on them for ramp. They can help fix your colors but honestly I've been surprised at how good the mana actually is. Mostly I want them to get in some attacks when possible, but also enable big turns by un-morphing them. I also like to have them alongside the Ashclouds to keep people guessing. All that said, it may be one part of the strategy that could use some revisiting.
Bell strike is a really interesting card. Use it early and they may not value the creature enough to ever pay to untap it. My favorite thing to do though is use it on something they really do need, make them pay the mana, and then bounce it back to their hand. It's nearly a triple time-walk in the best case scenario.
I'm usually hoping to end the game the turn I'd be casting Keranos (or very quickly thereafter) so I'm hesitant to bring it out of the SB but you might be right. It gets dangerous in G1 if it goes long.
Voyage's End is definitely the alternative to Force Away if you're going to be playing bounce spells at all. I'm still figuring out if this approach is really even viable. Maindeck Dissolve might just be better. When it works, it works fast though. The main advantage Jeskai has over us is Mantis Rider's flying, so I really like the bounce spells/bell strikes to keep the ground clear for Knuckleblade and Rabblemaster to get a couple hits in and then burn them out. Also, against something like Abzan, you can Bell Strike their Siege Rhino and then Temur Charm through their Coursers & Caryatids. Again... The strength of the deck is closing speed.
The biggest question really is just if this strategy is actually any better than a more fleshed out midrange style. The games I win I feel like a genius with this deck, but the games I lose I sometimes wonder if it is just a slightly worse version of what Jeskai is trying to do. I really like the options green gives us over white, though. I just don't want to be playing another Monsters deck.
I found myself in a similar thought process, landing Ascendancy and six mana, and trying to "combo" by drawing into Boon Satyrs and Knuckleblades. I think no matter what that Boon Satyr is a must have with Ascendancy, because its flash, power 4 and its bestow ability lategame is great. In the end I only had courser and caryatid as creatures with under 4 power; I had Surrak Dragonclaw and Nylea, God of the Hunt overlapping trample abilities. Kiora's -1 is such good synergistic ramp with courser, I went 3:3 or 4:3, I forget. Force Away as sweet cantrippy bounce. I think it's ok to think of it as midrange combo. Maybe some treasure cruise to draw cards. There is a solid deck in temur somewhere
Has anyone talked about the viability of Bow of Nylea in the builds that run Goblin Rabblemaster? I am tempted to try it out, myself, in lieu of my current all-in Ascendancy.
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I like where this discussion is headed. Temur has a ton of options, and could produce a deck unlike anything that's been in standard for some time. The fact that nobody broke it for the PT is surprising, but it's definitely a lot less obvious to build around than, say, Abzan. Siege Rhino is kind of a midrange-autopilot card IMO, whereas Knuckleblade is a lot trickier to play to it's full potential.
This may be the perfect home for Soul of Ravnica as well-- a big flying beater that can draw a lot of cards? Hmmm...
The issue with Soul is that, while it is flying, it might not be better than Soul of Shandalar or Sagu Mauler. As far as 6-drops go, we really have to make them shine in order to excuse us from not playing more 5-drops like Stormbreath Dragon or Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker. We have a lot of defense in Anger of the Gods and the usual Caryatid/Courser package, and I'm a firm believer than we can make Keranos, God of Storms work as part of the blue splash. More testing will be needed...
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Well the main question is, build around Ascendancy or not? I think it is pretty powerful, but is it winmor? what about some counterburn with Mindswipe? What is the core? Should Prophet of Kruphix be involved?
My money is on a Temur Xenagod deck. Sagu Mauler is great with Xenagod, to close things out. Stormbreath too. Ooh here's a guy we forgot about, Fanatic of Xenagos. Dude is a 4/4 either way for Ascendancy.
this is a quick list I threw together. I obviously think some spell support is needed, but this is what I am re-starting with.
The issue with Prophet was addressed earlier: it's too small to live in a format where Lightning Strike and Stoke the Flames are becoming increasingly common... not even mentioning mirror matches where Temur Charm and Setessan Tactics can hack it down as well.
I don't think Ascendancy is win-more... the advantage that you get by drawing cards makes sure that you can keep fuel coming, and by hasting the creatures, you can keep the pressure on them and offer a faster clock. We don't have a lot of card draw in a more-creatures version of the deck, and in most cases, you can offer a more difficult decision to Thoughtseize and keep the creature you were planning to slam because (at least for me) most of the time they will turn off Ascendancy instead of a dork or something.
This will be my attempt to combine both ideas together:
The issue with Prophet was addressed earlier: it's too small to live in a format where Lightning Strike and Stoke the Flames are becoming increasingly common... not even mentioning mirror matches where Temur Charm and Setessan Tactics can hack it down as well.
I don't think Ascendancy is win-more... the advantage that you get by drawing cards makes sure that you can keep fuel coming, and by hasting the creatures, you can keep the pressure on them and offer a faster clock. We don't have a lot of card draw in a more-creatures version of the deck, and in most cases, you can offer a more difficult decision to Thoughtseize and keep the creature you were planning to slam because (at least for me) most of the time they will turn off Ascendancy instead of a dork or something.
This will be my attempt to combine both ideas together:
Im eager to see your results I'm in late night solitaire mode, just trying stuff to try it. Made a list that has 3 mana as its cap (until I put three Impersonators in....). Impersonators and Knuckleblades can fill the 4 slot too, and Boon Satyr Can fill the 5 slot if needed. but otherwise its a tight low curve. Another thing about impersonator is that it is ascendancy 5-8, Because doubling up on ascendancy is awesome for us
It has card draw, protection, and 4/4s everywhere. Temur Ascendancy with ferocious lets you play Crater's Claws for and Shock something. I think maybe a little more burn, but maybe we need to approach it like the Zoo decks of old. Efficient beaters, low curve, lotsa burn and a way to draw cards.
[EDIT]
I went from that to this, Prophet is super powerful, especially in my deck when I have multiple Ascendancys out (regular multiples or Clones). Soon as you get two out you start drawing a bunch each turn, and prophet opens your mana back up to play your burn on their turn, or play more creatures. This list is pretty fun I think
Prophet of Kruphix can be a powerful support but to a certain extend, we may be running out of gas faster as we have twice the turn to play creatures. Knuckleblades is a 4 drop most of the time. So far it has always been played as GURR. At the moment I leave Ascendancy for a while and move to a aggro-er version.
Actually this is a some sort of Brian Kibler's Gruul Aggro last year, utilizes haste creatures except that it is bigger. A couple of Boon Satyr is good with Fanatic of Xenagos that has trample, for the dragon or even Rabblemaster. Temur Charm mostly acts like Domri Rade fight ability. Ferocious for Crater's Claws doesn't seem much of a problem, and it is a huge burn spell. Keranos can help to push the final burn. Xenagos, God of Revels is not a bad choice either.
My thought right now is due to the complete void of green devotion decks at the top tables of the pro tour that if green isn't the big target, and size matters less I'm much more interested at the prospect of Temur spreading wide. If all you have to worry about mostly is the one for one removal of Azban and to outsize Jeskai fast enough perhaps it is possible to make use of cards like Hour of Need. I was off it pretty quick but that is against an opponent that matches you on ramp and then plays bigger threats. If you don't have to worry about being bigger there is a lot of interesting stuff you can do. Like consider something weird like this:
Rabblemaster could just be wrong for this deck but If you get Xenagos or say 7ish mana short of board sweepers you can pretty much just keep chaining 4/4's. Bear's Companion gives you decent value at 5 to be able to make 1 for 1's bad. And it works well both with a body to target for Hour and Twinflame. Ascendancy makes any of these plays lethal or a way to dig much farther into the deck. The composition is probably a bit wrong but if you don't have to worry about T3 Arbor Colossus versus your T3 Hour Angels that cost you your development this actually works a lot better.
On Ascendancy. It is not winmore as in certain situations the deck can't really win at all. It's the CA engine that is more important than the haste if you have to get ahead of both 1 for 1's and being tempo'd out for playing expensive spells, into like Jeskai Charm etc.. If they have a critical mass of causing you to spend all your mana into a card and a cheaper card time walks you and they can leverage the extra mana then you aren't going to keep up in the midgame tempo battle this format seems to be pushing around T4.
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I don't like Illusory Angel. Most of the time it feels like a dead card. The best play is after Elvish Mystic, which is the total cost spend would be 4cmc. Might as well Savage Knuckleblade as a sure drop. I might be playing it wrong but it is hard to get it into the battlefield. I like Twinflame though. At 5cmc with Ascendancy, possible 2 card draws and send tokens for pressure instead. The best card with it I would say, Hornet Queen.
If one twinflames a Queen, do the tokens stay around? My inclination is yes tbey do, but ive been wrong plenty. If that is the case though, i might brew up a chord combo deck with queen, purph and twinflame
As for ascendancy, my second list about takes full advantage of it i feel. TA turn three, then either 4mana knucklehead, clever clone copying TA, or simply a second TA. That is the goal, two TAs, because then we start drawing 2-4 cards a turn-once six mana is reached, with happens quickly with the card draw capable in it. It runs twelve 3drop 4power creatures, which is really what temur ascendancy is looking for. I can see the awesomeness that is hour of need making the cut, maybe a 1of. Prophet in my list is fantastic because of the gas we can draw, or in lets us untap to burn. The one card im realizing NEEDS to be in that list is xenagos, because his mana ability will let us play more.
Counterspells are mostly lacking in the format, so that's why I feel that Ascendancy is well-positioned. As it was said, the worst that happens is we get 1-for-1'd by removal, but the card has been drawn by that point, so we can accelerate our plan and keep going. For example, this is especially important against UB Control lists that have massive amounts of removal.
Yesterday I played some Magic: The Gathering paper edition with my list, and I made a quick change of changing 1 Sagu Mauler and adding 2 Treasure Cruise-- it worked beautifully. I am at 61 cards, though, but I don't personally mind it terribly.
Bow of Nylea was such an all-star performer: every time I dropped Goblin Rabblemaster and they responded with Courser of Kruphix, and then I followed up with Bow before attacking, they won't do anything against the tokens... you can push 2-3-4+ damage easily, and dedicate the rest of your creatures to defense (don't forget the bow's lifegain and +1/+1 counter ability).
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Bow of Nylea was such an all-star performer: every time I dropped Goblin Rabblemaster and they responded with Courser of Kruphix, and then I followed up with Bow before attacking, they won't do anything against the tokens... you can push 2-3-4+ damage easily, and dedicate the rest of your creatures to defense (don't forget the bow's lifegain and +1/+1 counter ability).
Do you think maybe playing a 1 of Noble Quarry along with Bow for the deathtouch lure effect might be worth considering? I suppose any green deck could do it, but it could be a back-breaker in a midrange mirror.
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Prophet really needs to be in a deck where you are going much bigger and can keep drawing cards. Admittedly I've never liked Prophet so there is some bias there I guess. But the format is sort of one where it slow rolls the first couple turns and then 3-4-5 is a complete tempo battle. Prophet is good if you are still at parity on T4. I wouldn't bet on it. A lot of decks can basically overrun you the turn after Prophet comes down. The format is getting snappier again.
Mind you just because you have access to a color doesn't mean you have to do what that color does. I think straight up trade mana for cards is not good in most Temur lists. It's the same deck that might consider Prophet that would want to play Dig Through Time. I don't see how a Temur Tempo deck is better than a Jeskai one at all. Basically the green gives you a jump ahead for sure in mana but down on cards. That sort of trade off makes you want to represent a board that is ahead a few turns rather than take advantage of more cheap spells. If you are committed to the board why not just finish the game rather than drawing cards.
Green Devotion invalidates things in Temur in a pure proactive Plan A sort of way. However, there is nothing to stop you from playing Green Devotion with Red and Blue cards as a mechanism to deal with Greens weaknesses.
1. Lack of innate card advantage that doesn't make the deck worse against sweepers. And even to keep ahead of a certain amount of one for one removal. Domri's exit hurt here.
2. An awkward mirror situation. I mean there is stuff like Tactics but it's not great.
It's not unlike other splashes already being explored. I like red splash in general for these issues. Black splash is interesting in that it is really good against the mirror and tokens, but without CA it sort of falls on the Constellation subtheme generally which still isn't great against sweepers. Blue gives you the ability to play against control better and have tempo oriented catch alls. My thought is Temur Ascendancy is sort of a replacement for Domri Rade. It allows the deck to draw through 1 for 1 removal and get value against sweepers (slow role threats and they all have haste). Similarly I like Surrak in that sort of place. Blue could have some use in the mirror but I haven't leveraged it yet since red has been sufficient. It's possible Jund is just better but the CA problem leads you back to Constellations.
What I like about Ascendancy is it doesn't put any restrictions on your cards really other than be good. Bigger than your Opponents cards help a lot, but that's about it. It's possible there is a lacking of critical mass of synergy that prevents it from being good enough but that's the premise atleast. Mind you online I've been having some issues with aggro. I made a change today which seems kind of janky but let's me have a different avenue against aggro that has been working very well. So far I haven't lost a match against another green deck but that isn't saying much since I'm generally very good in green mirrors (3 Abzan, 2 Temur Monsters, 1 Temur Tempo, 2 GB Devotion, 1 GR Devotion, 1 Sultai Control, 1 Sultai Midrange).. No I did lose against a Sultai Control deck when I was playing a version with 23 lands. My rate against Mardu, Red, and Mono Black Aggro hasn't been nearly as good.
4 Yavimaya Coast
3 Shivan Reef
2 Temple of Abandon
2 Temple of Mystery
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Frontier Biovac
1 Mana Confluence
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
Creatures(28):
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
1 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
3 Arbor Colossus
2 Surrak, Dragonclaw
2 Soul of Shandalar
3 Genesis Hydra
2 Nylea's Presence
3 Temur Ascendancy
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Hunt the Hunter
1 Magma Jet
3 Anger of the Gods
2 Reclamation Sage
3 Nylea's Disciple
Not sure if the Nylea's Presence or the Anger's are right but it does let have early plays to curve out properly and it lets me board in a way that is less susceptible to my own Angers or opposing burn while not lowering my Devotion. So far Anger has been good but mostly since people don't play around it. But basically siding down to a Monsters deck is pretty easy in those matchups.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Not sure why you would say Temur tempo is a poorer Jeskai tempo. We have access to as good or better tempo cards in Stubborn Denial, Savage Knuckleblade, and really the lynchpin Surrak Dragonclaw. We can also just put the game away as fast or faster than them. I can't tell you the number of games where a 6/6 Knuckleblade and Dragonclaw wins the game in one turn (+ sling a burn spell). We can also play the long game better than they can imho. One of the better players around here plays Jeskai Tempo and I've been way ahead in that MU, as well as against stuff like G/x devotion and aggro (B, R, etc.). I've also been testing out Feed the Clan (out of the SB) and it's been doing a lot better than I thought it would. 10 life is actually a lot (invalidating 3+ cards at times), backed up by counterspells and huge pressure (Knucks/Claw/Stormy).
I guess when comparing Jeskai Tempo to Temur Tempo there is the advantage that your burn spells will deal with all their threats. But it's more that it is much easier for them to deal damage. I once did a comparison between Dreg Mangler and Loxodon Smiter and took Dreg Mangler since it took 3 turns for Smiter to catch up to Mangler on damage. So while cards like Knuckleblade allow pump in to put out much more damage from a single threat the investment of damage per mana cost is much lower. Even the fact that cards like Mantis Rider has Vigilance, and Seeker potential lifelink. It basically completely invalidates smaller aggro strategies. Still I will say being able to maindeck Anger seems pretty good. I've been looking for ways to do that. That seems like a reasonable way to do that. The only thing I really see in your list is it feels like it might be threat light in certain matchups. My experience against Jeskai is that their 5 drops don't matter. If they win it's because of the power of their 3 drops in quick succession. Knuckleblade does have the benefit of being bigger than any 4 drops. However any hand that doesn't have Knuckleblade might find itself behind. Still it looks close. If control becomes a thing I think it's a slightly better place to be.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
3 Frontier Bivouac
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Temple of Epiphany
4 Yavimaya Coast
2 Mountain
3 Forest
4 Temple of Mystery
4 Lightning Strike
2 Dig Through Time
3 Temur Charm
2 Icy Blast
1 Hour of Need
1 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
1 See the Unwritten
4 Savage Knuckleblade
2 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Kiora's Follower
2 Voyaging Satyr
4 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Sagu Mauler
1 Prognostic Sphinx
The four Lightning Strike are anti-Mantis Rider precautions. I would love to run Magma Spray, but Jeskai is very popular.
Kiora, Hour of Need, and See the Unwritten are experiments, the last of which will probably get cut. I'm glad that others here had the idea to turn mana dorks into sphinx tokens. There's nothing I hate more than drawing a mana dork when I'm looking for gas, and 8 power of flyers for 5 mana is no joke. I'm running 1 because I want the best chances that it's not in my opening hand (happened multiple times on Friday when I was running 2 and it was nearly a dead card).
Dig Through Time was added to help when the hand runs dry. Splitting the difference between spells and creatures lead to a lot of topdecking situations. This deck has a hard time topdecking against Abzan and Mardu midrange ("good stuff" decks), especially since they have a bunch of kill spells and Thoughtseize. Fortunately, that means graveyard cards to delve away. Given the playtesting I did today, it's the best thing I could topdeck. The downside is drawing them early.
From my experience, Temur Charm is a mana leak before turn 5 or when opponents taps out, otherwise it's a removal spell. I've tried Trap Essence in the sideboard, but have yet to draw it. Icy Blast is a pure tempo card, and in practice against Abzan it prevents me from dying for a turn. This may get relegated to the sideboard (when it's good, however, it's GREAT, like against Jeskai).
Concerning the mana dorks, I don't want Elvish Mystic. Nearly half my land comes into play tapped - the scrying is HUGE! Caryatid helps with fixing and doesn't die to Magma Jet. I don't know if Kiora's Follower or Voyaging Satyr is better, so I'm testing both. I like the follower since I can attack and then untap the creature, but the satyr is easier to cast.
Sagu Mauler and Prognostic Sphinx are under review. The sphinx is hard to kill and fixes draws, so it will probably go up to 2, maybe 3. Sagu Mauler is harder to pinpoint given mana cost, but that hexproof goes a LONG way against Abzan and Mardu.
The sideboard is largely unknown. I've been trying Trap Essence, Soul of Ravnica, Negate, Disdainful Stroke, and Setessan Tactics. I think Nylea's Disciple or the gain 10 life spell might be appropriate since I usually only lose to Jeskai because of burn. I don't like the card that much, so I may settle with some Mistcutters since racing was my plan when playing my old standard Jund Monsters vs R/W Burn (I had a very good win rate post board).
CARDS TO BE REVIEWED - Thassa (fixes draws like a boss, but will probably never be animated), Genesis Hydra (it's almost always been better than See the Unwritten in practice), Jace the Living Guildpact (bounce and fixing draws in one package, Nissa (I own 1 and it's hard to find things not to love about her), Surrak (seems better in some matchups than others), Dissolve/Swan Song/insert,counter,magic,here
Edit: Here's my outlook for the Jeskai and Abzan post board
Jeskai - load up on Icy Blast (creatures), Negate (specifically for burn), and Disdainful Stroke (specifically for Dig Through Time). Game plan keep Mantis Riders off the board and race. I'm fine if they spend multiple burn spells to kill a 4/4 or 5/5 since it means the damage didn't go to my face.
Abzan (could also apply to Mardu) - Time to play the control game! Mana dorks can stabilize the field (they usually won't spend kill spells on non-Caryatid dorks, and I can strike a lion), Prognostic Sphinx, Nissa, Sagu Mauler, and Knuckleblade with 2U available are the preferred finishers. Icy Blast is fine in concert with a fatty. They topdeck extremely well, so card draw or more digs may find their way to my board.
I love Nissa, Kiora, Sagu Mauler, Arbor Collossus, Stormbreath and knuckle blade. I just don't know how to put them all in a deck that doesn't fold to monoblack aggro or jeskai tempo and yes I know anger works bbut it kills our mana dorks too.
With the recent PT KTK result, especially top 8, it shows that creature curve is lower and supported by removal and control spells.
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
3x Rattleclaw Mystic
4x Savage Knuckleblade
4x Goblin Rabblemaster
2x Ashcloud Phoenix
1x Surrak Dragonclaw
Spells - 23
4x Force Away
4x Lightning Strike
3x Magma Jet
2x Negate
3x Singing Bell Strike
3x Temur Charm
4x Stoke The Flames
4x Frontier Bivouac
3x Forest
3x Mountain
3x Shivan Reef
1x Temple of Epiphany
1x Temple of Mystery
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Yavimaya Coast
3x Destructive Revelry
3x Disdainful Stroke
2x Anger of the Gods
2x Hour of Need
1x Keranos, God of Storms
2x Sarkhan, The Dragonspeaker
2x Dig Through Time
Still needs a lot of tuning but basically you are just trying to get Knuckleblade or Rabblemaster on the table and keep it clear for them with bounce & counterspells. Plays like a real tempo deck. Sideboard let's you go longer and a few nods to the meta (destructive revelries for Ascendancy, mostly)
Singing Bell Strike has been surprisingly good. 6 mana is a lot-- hopefully you've killed them before they can pay for it.
Force Away doesn't feel great, but drawing a card is pretty nice upside when you've got Knucks or a Phoenix out.
I really like Hour of Need too, just not in the MB.
I'm underwhelmed by Stubborn Denial in testing so I took it out of the list, but maybe that is wrong.
Feed The Clan has potential since the deck has no other lifegain-- altho hopefully the games are over before it matters.
Lastly... other cards to consider- Crater's Claws, Harness By Force, Jeskai Windscout... hmmm, more to come. Anyhow, I think there is a strong deck in these colors be it tempo or midrange, I'm really surprised it had virtually no presence at the pro tour. Buy your Knuckleblades while they are cheap!
Input is greatly appreciated, thanks!
Also think maybe Boon Satyr and Surrak should be looked at more. Flash is really great on creatures
The choice of 3 Rattleclaw Mystic seems kind of arbitrary. Are you specifically looking for a 2-drop in the creature slot? There's not enough copies to make it a consistent mana fixer (need 6-8 dorks for that), so if mana is your intent, you could cut some spells for a few more mana dudes, or cut the mystics altogether for 2 lands and something else.
I'm kind of surprised that Singing Bell Strike has been good. I would assume that in a grindy matchup my opponent would have the opportunity to untap it. I'll put that on my list of cards to try.
Voyage's End is an alternative to Force Away. You won't always be able to loot with force away, but you will always get to scry with the former. Regardless, I can see many scenarios where you cast a creature and leave up bounce mana to recover it in case of a kill spell.
Given that you want to be full tempo, I think Keranos is better in the main board. You can buy several turns with tempo cards while bolting them or drawing creatures/burn, neither of which is a bad thing!
Thanks for your feedback! You may well be right about the Mystics, but they serve a somewhat unique role in the deck. It's great to have one in your opening hand but I'm not relying on them for ramp. They can help fix your colors but honestly I've been surprised at how good the mana actually is. Mostly I want them to get in some attacks when possible, but also enable big turns by un-morphing them. I also like to have them alongside the Ashclouds to keep people guessing. All that said, it may be one part of the strategy that could use some revisiting.
Bell strike is a really interesting card. Use it early and they may not value the creature enough to ever pay to untap it. My favorite thing to do though is use it on something they really do need, make them pay the mana, and then bounce it back to their hand. It's nearly a triple time-walk in the best case scenario.
I'm usually hoping to end the game the turn I'd be casting Keranos (or very quickly thereafter) so I'm hesitant to bring it out of the SB but you might be right. It gets dangerous in G1 if it goes long.
Voyage's End is definitely the alternative to Force Away if you're going to be playing bounce spells at all. I'm still figuring out if this approach is really even viable. Maindeck Dissolve might just be better. When it works, it works fast though. The main advantage Jeskai has over us is Mantis Rider's flying, so I really like the bounce spells/bell strikes to keep the ground clear for Knuckleblade and Rabblemaster to get a couple hits in and then burn them out. Also, against something like Abzan, you can Bell Strike their Siege Rhino and then Temur Charm through their Coursers & Caryatids. Again... The strength of the deck is closing speed.
The biggest question really is just if this strategy is actually any better than a more fleshed out midrange style. The games I win I feel like a genius with this deck, but the games I lose I sometimes wonder if it is just a slightly worse version of what Jeskai is trying to do. I really like the options green gives us over white, though. I just don't want to be playing another Monsters deck.
Went and looked up the list I had, here it is.
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Courser of Kruphix
4 Boon Satyr
4 Savage Knuckleblade
2 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
1 Surrak Dragonclaw
2 Xenagos, God of Revels
2 Sagu Mauler
4 Force Away
4 Temur Ascendancy
3 Temur Charm
3 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
Lands
4 Temple of Mystery
4 Frontier Bivouac
4 Mana Confluence
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Temple of Abandon
Illusory Angel worth a conversation in the midrange combo build?
@Trickster-kun below, Bow seems great with anything that provides a lot of attackers. might as well try 2of
Standard: N G A W Y R A
Commander: G U B Damia
This may be the perfect home for Soul of Ravnica as well-- a big flying beater that can draw a lot of cards? Hmmm...
Standard: N G A W Y R A
Commander: G U B Damia
My money is on a Temur Xenagod deck. Sagu Mauler is great with Xenagod, to close things out. Stormbreath too. Ooh here's a guy we forgot about, Fanatic of Xenagos. Dude is a 4/4 either way for Ascendancy.
this is a quick list I threw together. I obviously think some spell support is needed, but this is what I am re-starting with.
3 Fanatic of Xenagos
4 Savage Knuckleblade
3 Boon Satyr
2 Thassa, God of the Sea
3 Xenagos, God of Revels
3 Sagu Mauler
3 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Temur Ascendancy
I don't think Ascendancy is win-more... the advantage that you get by drawing cards makes sure that you can keep fuel coming, and by hasting the creatures, you can keep the pressure on them and offer a faster clock. We don't have a lot of card draw in a more-creatures version of the deck, and in most cases, you can offer a more difficult decision to Thoughtseize and keep the creature you were planning to slam because (at least for me) most of the time they will turn off Ascendancy instead of a dork or something.
This will be my attempt to combine both ideas together:
4x Sylvan Caryatid
4x Savage Knuckleblade
3x Polukranos, World Eater
1x Nylea, God of the Hunt
4x Goblin Rabblemaster
3x Stormbreath Dragon
1x Keranos, God of Storms
1x Surrak Dragonclaw
4x Temur Ascendancy
2x Bow of Nylea
3x Lightning Strike
4x Forest
3x Mountain
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Yavimaya Coast
2x Mana Confluence
2x Temple of Abandon
1x Temple of Epiphany
1x Temple of Mystery
3x Shivan Reef
2x Anger of the Gods
3x Setessan Tactics
2x Disdainful Stroke
1x Polis Crusher
1x Unravel the AEther
3x Stubborn Denial
1x Arbor Colossus
1x Mistcutter Hydra
1x Clever Impersonator
Let's see how it goes...
Standard: N G A W Y R A
Commander: G U B Damia
Im eager to see your results I'm in late night solitaire mode, just trying stuff to try it. Made a list that has 3 mana as its cap (until I put three Impersonators in....). Impersonators and Knuckleblades can fill the 4 slot too, and Boon Satyr Can fill the 5 slot if needed. but otherwise its a tight low curve. Another thing about impersonator is that it is ascendancy 5-8, Because doubling up on ascendancy is awesome for us
4 Clever Impersonator
4 Fanatic of Xenagos
4 Savage Knuckleblade
4 Boon Satyr
2 Thassa, God of the Sea
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Temur Ascendancy
4 Force Away
2 Temur Charm
2 Stoke the Flames
3 Lightning Strike
Lands
2 Temple of Abandon
4 Temple of Mystery
3 Forest
4 Mana Confluence
2 Mountain
4 Frontier Bivouac
4 Wooded Foothills
It has card draw, protection, and 4/4s everywhere. Temur Ascendancy with ferocious lets you play Crater's Claws for and Shock something. I think maybe a little more burn, but maybe we need to approach it like the Zoo decks of old. Efficient beaters, low curve, lotsa burn and a way to draw cards.
[EDIT]
I went from that to this, Prophet is super powerful, especially in my deck when I have multiple Ascendancys out (regular multiples or Clones). Soon as you get two out you start drawing a bunch each turn, and prophet opens your mana back up to play your burn on their turn, or play more creatures. This list is pretty fun I think
2 Prophet of Kruphix
3 Clever Impersonator
4 Fanatic of Xenagos
4 Savage Knuckleblade
4 Boon Satyr
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Temur Ascendancy
4 Force Away
2 Temur Charm
2 Stoke the Flames
3 Lightning Strike
1 Chord of Calling
2 Temple of Abandon
4 Temple of Mystery
3 Forest
4 Mana Confluence
2 Mountain
4 Frontier Bivouac
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Boon Satyr
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Fanatic of Xenagos
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Keranos, God of Storms
4 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Savage Knuckleblade
4 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Crater's Claws
4 Temur Charm
Lands (23)
4 Forest
4 Frontier Bivouac
1 Island
2 Mana Confluence
2 Mountain
2 Shivan Reef
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Yavimaya Coast
Actually this is a some sort of Brian Kibler's Gruul Aggro last year, utilizes haste creatures except that it is bigger. A couple of Boon Satyr is good with Fanatic of Xenagos that has trample, for the dragon or even Rabblemaster. Temur Charm mostly acts like Domri Rade fight ability. Ferocious for Crater's Claws doesn't seem much of a problem, and it is a huge burn spell. Keranos can help to push the final burn. Xenagos, God of Revels is not a bad choice either.
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
4 Yavimaya Coast
3 Shivan Reef
2 Temple of Abandon
3 Temple of Mystery
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Island
1 Frontier Biovac
1 Mana Confluence
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Illusory Angel
3 Polukranos, World Eater
3 Bear's Companion
2 Arbor Colossus
2 Surrak, Dragonclaw
4 Temur Ascendancy
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
3 Twinflame
2 Hour of Need
Rabblemaster could just be wrong for this deck but If you get Xenagos or say 7ish mana short of board sweepers you can pretty much just keep chaining 4/4's. Bear's Companion gives you decent value at 5 to be able to make 1 for 1's bad. And it works well both with a body to target for Hour and Twinflame. Ascendancy makes any of these plays lethal or a way to dig much farther into the deck. The composition is probably a bit wrong but if you don't have to worry about T3 Arbor Colossus versus your T3 Hour Angels that cost you your development this actually works a lot better.
On Ascendancy. It is not winmore as in certain situations the deck can't really win at all. It's the CA engine that is more important than the haste if you have to get ahead of both 1 for 1's and being tempo'd out for playing expensive spells, into like Jeskai Charm etc.. If they have a critical mass of causing you to spend all your mana into a card and a cheaper card time walks you and they can leverage the extra mana then you aren't going to keep up in the midgame tempo battle this format seems to be pushing around T4.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
As for ascendancy, my second list about takes full advantage of it i feel. TA turn three, then either 4mana knucklehead, clever clone copying TA, or simply a second TA. That is the goal, two TAs, because then we start drawing 2-4 cards a turn-once six mana is reached, with happens quickly with the card draw capable in it. It runs twelve 3drop 4power creatures, which is really what temur ascendancy is looking for. I can see the awesomeness that is hour of need making the cut, maybe a 1of. Prophet in my list is fantastic because of the gas we can draw, or in lets us untap to burn. The one card im realizing NEEDS to be in that list is xenagos, because his mana ability will let us play more.
Yesterday I played some Magic: The Gathering paper edition with my list, and I made a quick change of changing 1 Sagu Mauler and adding 2 Treasure Cruise-- it worked beautifully. I am at 61 cards, though, but I don't personally mind it terribly.
Bow of Nylea was such an all-star performer: every time I dropped Goblin Rabblemaster and they responded with Courser of Kruphix, and then I followed up with Bow before attacking, they won't do anything against the tokens... you can push 2-3-4+ damage easily, and dedicate the rest of your creatures to defense (don't forget the bow's lifegain and +1/+1 counter ability).
Standard: N G A W Y R A
Commander: G U B Damia
Do you think maybe playing a 1 of Noble Quarry along with Bow for the deathtouch lure effect might be worth considering? I suppose any green deck could do it, but it could be a back-breaker in a midrange mirror.