Sometimes the deck seems slow sometimes and clunky but other times it curves nicely and works as intended.. I'm interested in testing your idea of draconic roar in place of maybe the wild slashes... I'm not a fan of frost walker because it seems too insignificant in most matches. Sarkhan has been great especially with courser out. Death mist and den protector are obviously powerful cards but I'm not quite sure if they have a place in temur I lack the faith that temur is great at being grindy... I'll post more details when I get to a desktop
It isn't about grinding just finding ways to get a little value. The deck just needs a little something. Too many of the threats are just good, then they kill it. If you can buy back even something once in a game you probably have more threats than they have answers. You just need to do it once in some matchups. It's a density trade off to get exactly what you need. The value often comes out when you can just keep rebuying Disdainful Strokes or Back to Natures or Stubborn Denials. It basically puts you in a position where if you are ahead on board the opponent can do nothing about it.
The base problem with Temur is the mana. Basically Savage Knuckleblade is at odds with Elvish Mystic and I'd take Elvish Mystic every time. You can play them together but it becomes essentially your 4 drop. Competing with other 4's and the real problem in these decks is the lack of 3's. I mean you can fall into Monsters timing but that's too clunky without the level of answers we had last format. Basically at 3 I think the best all around cards right now are Courser of Kruphix and Deathmist Raptor. The other 3's are just not good enough. Once on that path it's super easy if you are in the market to find a little value from it. I think I do want to edit my board a bit. I don't see myself wanting more than 3 Den Protectors, and I think Stratus Dancer while cute matters less now that I am playing Courser.
From my inclusion of Frost Walker it must be clear I'm in strong opposition of the Caryatid Camp. I don't know if it's good enough as I move to more taplands but I definitely think the deck needs more than 4 2 drops on the proactive curve. I think my split might just be wrong. Maybe it should be 4 Rattleclaw and 1 Frost Walker. I mean Frost Walker wins me tons of games. And every time I'm against Abzan Aggro or Control I'm so grateful to have it. Maybe it should be something else especially now how many taplands I play. That being said I like a decks ability to brute force. Especially in a format with a bunch of Dragons. Against Dragon heavy decks I intend to have them on the backfoot out the gate. It's all about the timing and I feel my understanding of it is why I also do so well in green mirrors. I haven't lost a round to an opponent playing Knuckleblade since it's printing. Not that some of my own lists didn't play it. Just a timing thing. And some awkwardness in the curve, misdraw is all it takes. It's why I think this new list is doing better. Simply a curve concern. It really came down to having game when you know you have a 2 lander with 2 dorks, and they kill/thoughtseize your dorks and you don't draw another land for 5 turns. Having enough to do at 2 and 3 and interact with their game, that say a Frost Walker and a Disdainful Stroke is enough to win the game. This sort of thing still happens all the time even with 31 mana sources and temples. Bogs my mind but I'm winning through it. It's possible having Roar does enough on it's own but in those situations it's usually the proactive plays you are lacking.
Sideboard wise I've won another game off Mob Rule. I think it's the right one of out of the board. I think Stratus Dancer can go. That's a control slot / mono red. Maybe Stratus Dancer is still the best option there. It's that, Denial, or Negate that is really applicable in both matchups. Red matchup is still close. It's always going to game 3 if I lose game 1, but game 3 is always just one card down. Like they top deck exactly what they need the turn before I can get shields up. It isn't like the odds are against them to. But it's that close. Like I finally stabilize on blockers around 7 life(with Courser on board) but need to tap out so I can't hold up Denial, and they have one card in hand and end up with exactly 2 Stokes. I lost a game with 2 Coursers on board and a 3rd in hand like that.
Angers are mostly for Deathmist/Protector. Pretty much just trying to go big, with Shamanic Revelation putting me ahead of other midrange decks, hopefully being just fast enough and having the ability to use some timely Denials to push through the damage against control and then Angers and guys that are too big to attack through hopefully doing what I need it to against aggro. Never played Temur before though, so opinions welcome.
1. I have for that is I think you have to give up on Haven if you want to play Knuckleblade. You don't play enough dragons for Haven to be as excellent anyway. But I mean it's nice to get value off your lands.
2. Anger is a fine card and decent sideboard card but it's a liability 10 cards of your own it kills maindeck. If it only killed say 4 it's passable. But at 10 it's no good.
As for the comment on Sagu Mauler. I've actually recently been bouncing around with the card but I don't see it doing anything relevant. Spot removal isn't these decks weaknesses. In fact with the cheap counters you'd often prefer the opponent thinking they can kill your stuff. A body that just dies to Deathmist with a Lightning Strike tagged on is less impressive than say a bunch of dragons. If things had carried on like before I think there would be a strong case but both Surrak and Thunderbreak at 4cmc have fundamentally changed the timing of these decks. Almost everything in the set incentivizes to go the dragon way from the Haven inclusion to Crux being the awkward sweeper. It's hard to argue for a situationally better card when the tools to leverage the dragons are so abundant and easy to include.
That said It might be interesting to see how a morph tempo control deck would work with like 2 Maulers.. Make it basically a Deathmist Raptor/Protector/Counterspell deck. And have Mauler be your win condition. Sort of makes the dragons look silly (other than the Drifting Death and Dromoka). Mind you if I was on that plan I think I'd play Sultai. I mean why not have access to your own Silumgar's and spot removal if you aren't going to leverage the haste and in your faceness of the red inclusion.
=================================
List for today:
I've been trying to just focus on the stuff I like and trim out the stuff that is more conditional main. It has led to some compromises in the sideboard but maybe this makes for a better deck. The key consideration is going down to 23 lands by trading a certain number of Caryatids. The tension has been at 24 lands you really want 25, however you can't afford it on density and defensively against aggro. But Rattleclaw gets killed so readily that it's hard to count it as guarenteed mana. Caryatid short of the Anger decks can be. But you never want to draw more than 1 in a game. This allows me to sneak Den Protector in at no cost basically and keep the 4 additional morphs to keep Deathmist live. To fill it out I just jam more of the powerful cards I want to ramp into. Yes Surrak + Cayartid is a bit awkward, but in this deck it isn't always about the haste Surrak but rather the Surrah who holds the ground while Sarkhan makes haste dragons. To accomplish this I had to cut down on my reactive spells main and I think with exactly 5 slots where I want to be is 3 Draconic Roar + 2 Disdainful Stroke. It doesn't always align right but it basically gives you an answer for cheap stuff and expensive stuff. Sure you can't as readily protect your threats game 1, but you do play a lot of them. The biggest loss in percentage in this sort of move is you don't just blow out Jeskai Ascendancy game 1 where they think it's easy and you just have the Denial up without even ferocity. I think I can live with that. Stroke still hits Collected Company, Stoke, Planeswalkers not named Ashiok, Heelcutter, Siege Rhino, etc.. As usually I'm trying to scrape by with the minimal amount of reactive cards that cover the largest base while still being effective there. Like Denial is a much wider card but I'm thinking it's not always effective enough to be worth the position main.
In the end the sideboard ends up looking like a bunch of 2 ofs etc.. But if you look at it you can see how some cards play similar roles in different matchups so you can arrange them to get the right numbers. Like I cut a circle of flame for another Magma Spray since it's good against green decks that ramp etc.. I am yet to see if I can streamline the sideboard, or if this streamlining of the main deck is effective enough.
Put this together recently:
Needs a little tweaking, but it works pretty well against Jeskai and Control match-ups. Mono-red is a toss-up after the addition of Twin Bolt in the side. Haven't really tested against Abzan. Let me know your thoughts! I've been considering Kiora, Xenagos, and Courser. Courser of Kruphix might work better than Rattleclaw Mystic, in this deck.
Put this together recently:
Needs a little tweaking, but it works pretty well against Jeskai and Control match-ups. Mono-red is a toss-up after the addition of Twin Bolt in the side. Haven't really tested against Abzan. Let me know your thoughts! I've been considering Kiora, Xenagos, and Courser. Courser of Kruphix might work better than Rattleclaw Mystic, in this deck.
I've been following this thread for a while; it's nice to finally contribute.
Besides what I've said ad nauseum about playing Knuckleblade with Haven, Blue mana is really the only issue. You sit at 13. I found 13+2 Havens is right on the edge to play Icefall. I mean it was enough that I stopped playing it. Mind you in other formats I've played that mana red sources and played Stormbreath so it's not he worst. Silumgar's Scorn though is a much tougher inclusion. I've played it with that many sources and there will be times where it bites you. I mean I'm gathering it's not supposed to be the T2 play in this deck, but you are about 3 blue sources short of it getting in the sweet spot mana wise.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Decks: GWUKnightfall Modern UWTempo Legacy UGRBurning Wish Cobra Vintage
Hmm. I see what you're saying. Caryatid and Rattleclaw really help with blue mana production, though. Those islands should probably be Shivan Reef; not that it would change the blue section of the mana base. I'm going to work on getting a playset of Courser to test in place of Rattleclaw Mystic.
Why do you believe you can't play Knuckeblade with a pair of Haven? It reminds me of when Boros Reckoner was a legal and people were still successfully running it with a pair of Forest in their Naya builds. You will definitely get color screwed a handful of times in the long-run but both Knuckleblade/Haven are too good to omit.
Running two Havens doesn't really interfere with Knux, imo. And, yes, Haven is way too good to omit. Knux could be omitted for something, but it's a really efficient non-dragon creature. I'm really happy with how the deck performs, but I think it needs more of an answer for mono-red. Maybe Feed the Clan, in the sideboard?
I'm wondering if an aggro variant with Collected Company might be good.
Every game where you have no choice but to play Haven in your first 3 lands and you don't have the mana ramp. This happens not a small number of times.. Not being able to play Knuckleblade on time largely defeats the point. Even in my last attempt I had it in out of the sideboard. It wouldn't be such of an issue if the timing wasn't so important. You play Knuckleblade so you have a good 3 drop with range. If you wanted a 4 drop there are better choices. It will happen to you a couple times and you will see what I'm talking about. Sometimes 2 Havens is a liability anyway, but this is only emphasized by Knuckleblade.
I will try another perspective. How many sources could you play in a Boros Reckoner or Leatherback Baloth deck.. you needed atleast 20.. so maybe 3 possibly. Now picture if the card got huge value.. if it cost was 4 colored mana symbols. You basically need the odds of hitting 3-4 land drops of colored mana.. which is similar to hitting your 3-4 land drops in a normal deck.. so that should be 23-24 lands.. how many Havens is that?
I've said it in atleast 5 posts in the last month, so I guess I'm done saying. But it is so clear to me from my testing I will go out and flat say it's incorrect if you play Knuckleblade and any land before your 24th is a Haven and even that's close.. I'd probably argue your 25th. Dorks do help, but if you want to do it on time ie.. T3... you still can't play Haven then.
Company is fine, been down that road. We have some great 3's.. it just doesn't want to be in a deck with Elvish Mystic, and other mana ramp.. Too much liability on hitting those so it works best if your cards sinergize with each other like lords and such.. Not sure Temur is the right place.
=========================================
As for my own testing.. I've cut both Surrak's for the 4th Courser and the 3rd Den Protector.. bit concerned about air, but the consistency of the deck is so much better. It's feeling more like a real deck. Just need to work on the numbers a bit more. Also Disdainful Stroke main is awesome right now. No regrets trading out Stubborn Denial.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Decks: GWUKnightfall Modern UWTempo Legacy UGRBurning Wish Cobra Vintage
This is the current state of my list. It took me a while to get used to it but now I'm getting the timing. The basic summary of this deck is unchecked Sarkhan Unbroken is the best Planeswalker in Standard. Basically it's near the power level of Elspeth but it only costs 5 which is a huge difference. That timing alone means it usually can position your deck to beat Elspeth head to head since you can draw cards and sandbag your Stormbreath's. Once I understood I was making the best Sarkhan deck everything came together. That being said that wasn't the approach I was taking it, but it was that realization that led to me playing the deck right.
The deck is designed to be an invalidator to Abzan. You are basically you are about the same size as Abzan Midrange but you are faster. This means you are the bigger deck against Abzan Aggro, and although you are the aggressor against Abzan Midrange you can play a long game. Sarkhan is deadly against them especially if they aren't on the Ajani plan. They can't keep up on cards and at any moment you threaten doing like 14 points in an alpha strike. Once I learned not to attack and use my Stormbreath defensively with Sarkhan when there weren't good attacks I have been able to generally always keep a step ahead of them while moving to a position where I can eclipse their removal with my recursion. Even if they have their own Den Protectors generally they have to use a certain number of cards against Sarkhan's dragons. It is only problematic in a scenario where they hit all their Den Protectors and Raptors and you don't hit your Den Protectors. Xenagos and Sarkhan both can keep them at bay and trade cards for tokens with them for so long that you can usually outdraw them significantly with the help of Courser and Sarkhan.
The value you get off your cards and the ability to threaten lethal board actually makes this deck very good against Control with only a little bit of help. While not purely as effective as my old haste plan(ie you have actually play a game that you might lose) the matchup is still like 65%. It was a bit zealous to play a deck that suffered so much with Aggro just to have about a 90% matchup with control. In so I only have 3 sideboard slots for control and it's all I need. A lot of controllish decks these days actually benefit from you keeping in a Draconic Roar or 2 or Epic Confrontation or Mob Rule depending. The Courser/Deathmist/Draconic Roar main actually helps a lot against Aggro as well. Meaning I can use that base and have a varied set of different tools for other matchups. There is a good chance those Circles of Flame should be Twin Bolts, but I'm leaving it as is for now since it is very effective where it is effective. Twin Bolt shores up Jeskai Ascendancy more than anything and I'm sort of taking a small hedge there. Epic Confrontation is basically my Roast and it has served me well. It's basically like playing Hunt the Hunter or Savage Punch, both cards that have seen sideboard play in these sort of decks, without having to be green or ferocious. The +1/+2 does everything a +1/+1 doesn't do (otherwise I'd consider Temur Charm). Most notably allow Deathmist to kill 4/5's like Tasigur and Siege Rhino without trading and Elvish Mystic to kill any other mana dork without trading. Courser can even post block kill another Courser. Obviously the card doesn't do much with Rattleclaw or Den Protector which is largely what makes it not good enough for red matchups.
This biggest change with this list is move towards more of the cards that promote the main(Sarkhan) gameplan. This means 4 Coursers. The more Sarkhan's and Coursers I played the better the deck felt. When I was playing 0 Coursers I'd have good draws and then I'd have mediocre draws that felt like only 20% of the time became good draws. It seemed if I got an active Sarkhan the whole deck came together. Not because of the dragons but because drawing the cards meant I was hitting my land drops. If I played more lands the deck would tend to flood. Even at 24 lands it sometimes was pretty awkward. The mana mix finally feels right. Similarly I went back to the 4th Stormbreath Dragon. If I'm going to curve that's what I want to be doing. This meant the 2 Surraks had to go and I actually trimmed one more Xenagos. I've found the 3rd one fine but not needed. With Den Protector (which I added the 3rd) I can buy back whatever I absolutely need. Xenagos is a good card but not an every game worth risking having one trapped in your hand card. Sarkhan is because you can always cash him in at anytime ie.. pull the make 3 dragons in 2 turns line with 2 of them. With Sarkhan and the 8 Dragons you are still pretty good to pull ferocious. Stubborn Denial is a bit worse and it's in the board for that reason. Still if every Sarkhan is worth 1.5 dragons on average, we're still looking at a ferocious count of close to 13. Which is passable, if you consider Deathmist can also be and Haven and Den Protector for recursion. Stubborn Denial is generally only 2 cards anyway. It's Force Spike or it's Ranger's Guile when you have something worth protecting. In the latter case usually that thing worth protecting has power of 4 or greater.
So where's Frost Walker you ask? Basically Deathmist Raptor invalidated it. Frost Walker is only more recently getting more attention in other decks (partially thanks to CoCo) but it was actually a really good card pre Dragons of Tarkir (outside of the popularity of token strategies). In fact one of the few things that incentivized going the Knuckleblade path. Generally either the opponent paid equal or more expensive removal on it, traded a creature they didn't want to, usually take on average 2 hits which with the lands etc usually meant starting at about 10 life.. mind you that only mitigated that you yourself was starting at about 16 life due to your own lands. Still great deal against decks that didn't play Wild Slash main and had the ability to kill you in 4 turns. Against decks with black removal it usually freed the path for bigger threats like Knuckles. Now the non-blocking non-removal opponent plays Deathmist Raptor.. and trades then buys it back.. you still start at 16 and they are starting at 19 basically. In this case it's better just to start at 19 yourself and Draconic Roar their Raptor to attack through and they can start at 16. It's a shame it didn't get leveraged as much before but it's past it's time now. Sort of like Rabblemaster which isn't a safe bet unless you are playing black removal or have a mechanism to make your creatures unblockable.
I'd cut 1 courser and 1 den protector for 1 See the Unwritten and 1 Atarka.
See the Unwritten is insane with deathmist raptor. Dumping raptors into the yard to be brought back later.
Deck feels like it needs a finisher. Atarka is the best in our colors. Closes games out very fast vs control. Dominates the midrange decks.
Courser does nothing in any game I play. Red has stoke the flames ready for him. Everything else is playing hero's downfall and Ultimate Price. Card just dies to removal every game and usually loses me too much tempo. Not to mention my "land on top of deck" % is extremely low.
That doesn't sound bad I'm gonna try it..Seems sort of win more in the sense if you are casting See the Unwritten you should just win the game. And there are decks that can cast it better in theory. The graveyard clause on See the Unwritten gives it that extra value when you aren't ferocious mind you. As you know I think Atarka is pretty unimpressive for the cost, but it's obviously a decent card. That is atleast something to aim for instead of basically using Den Protector as your finisher. I've gone back down to 3 Coursers myself. As you said it is sort of lackluster. However, I think it is a necessary evil. Red being ready for it is not really an argument though. I mean if they have the spell that kills the x/4 it works against most of your deck. It's basically to have another 3 you can jam. I mean if you have Raptor and Courser you always play Raptor first. It eating a removal spell is perfectly fine.
Another experiment I was trying today was now that I have better idea how these decks should work mid to late game I tried Wayfinder again. Still way too slow. I was inspired by the Abzan and GWBU Dragons Megamorph decks. Those decks have their angles but my ramp generally beats them. Matching their timing was not to my benefit at all. After trying Wayfinder again I think the decks that do the same thing with Rattleclaw just advantaged unless the opponent just happens to mill exactly raptors and draws all Den Protectors. This only happens a small percentage of the time. I've even beat decks that have out Den Protectored me of the sheer power off of Sarkhan.
Still the lack of finisher still is true. This is sort of same problem Jund Monsters had last year. Monsters atleast had the ability to punch large points of damage with Ghor Clan. I find with this deck the time to alpha strike is always 2 turns after my instinctual desire to. That being said the consistency in a field with so much turmoil feels incredibly nice. I don't think it's the finisher that is the problem exactly in that Stormbreath and Sarkhan do a lot. There is just no card in the deck that just feels I win without work. There is no Siege Rhino. No Bonfire of the Damned. No Overrun. Every advantage is gained by grinding your threats into their removal. It's somewhat vindicating when it becomes obvious that your more creatures actually outpace their removal but it's not like you are building up for the Vengevine. Even to recur Deathmist takes some work. This isn't Next Level Bant. It's more like Vengevine Naya before Fauna Shaman was printed, but there is no cute Collar Sparkmage angle. You are no better at grinding than anyone else.
Which has me thinking. Is the bees sideboard plan reasonable? Like Roast and Hornet's Nests. It's basically your Basilisk Collar move. Maybe it's too many card investment. The package needs I think minimum:
You could pad that with a couple Twin Bolts. For added value against aggro. So that's like 9 slots.. I do have 9 slots to play with. So sideboard like this maybe:
Yes on a side now back to Back to Nature. That card is such a blowout where it's good. It's like insurance against every bad deck in the format.
One a side note have any of you been losing to Collective Company Decks? I don't think I've lost a match to one yet. That card is incredibly unpredictable and generally pretty low impact. They have to already be ahead on the board for it to matter. But that means if you play anything relevant early it eclipses the card because most of the cards in their deck are so underpowered. I think it's the biggest trap card Standard has seen in a long while. There is a chance that something changes with new printings to make it better but for now it's kind of interesting to see people trying to make it work and basically doomed to fail. They made the card just underpowered enough with the current card pool.
Went 3-0 at a little FNM with the following list. It was a barely-competitive crowd, so I didn't know whether to expect brews or actual decks. Still, the mark of a decent deck is the ability to not really care either way and just win regardless.
R1 vs Abzan Megamorph: I'm assuming Megamorph, at least. There were Deathmist Raptors and Den Protectors on his end too. Game 1 I flooded pretty hard, but Games 2 and 3 were pretty par for the course. If the Abzan deck can't get a raided Wingmate Roc going, I don't find many issues with the matchup at all. There are certainly situations where you can't catch up from behind, but that's more the exception than the rule.
R2 vs Abzan Fly-Guys: The deck was playing mostly like an Abzan Aggro deck, but it also had Herald of Torment and Dragonlord Dromoka to close out the game. Which is what he did Game 1. Game 2 I was able to Roast a Hornet Nest and keep him at bay with those and some Xenagos tokens. While Game 3 ended with a huge Crater's Claws, despite a bestowed Herald of Torment on a Siege Rhino.
R3 vs Grixis Control: I'm guessing. It was big on Anger of the Gods, which kept my Deathmist shenanigans in check. Once I was past that, however, bigger creatures like Savage Knuckleblade and some dragons closed out the games. Game 2 saw me lose to my own dudes off an Ashiok. But Game 3 was an easy sweep. Anger of the Gods looks silly when you play it against Big Knucks and Thunderwings.
I think that's the thing with this format.. There is a lot of green decks, but a lot will be slower than you. Elvish Mystic is so much better than what they are doing the first couple turns from a tempo standpoint. Then there are the other Elvish Mystic decks which go bigger and well timed Disdainful Stroke where our faster 4 and 5 drops just take over the game. As long as you curve reasonably you have this window where you are just doing more powerful stuff than anyone else. Den Protector/Deathmist + Sarkhan is basically the mirror killer. As you said outside of Wingmate Rock but we have the permission. It creates this awkward tension where we have to be significantly behind. Since everyone is finally realizing the game is to be proactive it actually frees up Stormbreath a lot.
3 thoughts on the list:
First, no 4th Yavimaya Coast. I know it's a small thing but the odds of T2 Knuckleblade go up so much from it's inclusion. I guess the only 8 red untapped sources T2 after that is limiting factor enough. It's probably why I was doing so much pain to myself when I was playing Knuckleblade. It was still super powerful. Short of them having T2 Valorous Stance you were so ahead. That leverage elf angle is a lot less here maybe it's not that significant. I think it's generally fine but ups the probability of clunky hands.
The second is more general. I've been trying to determine why we would ever side Wild Slash over say Magma Spray. Main deck hits the player is a great argument but I mean when are you bringing shock in. The upside against Raid and Morph decks seems huge. Maybe you wouldn't bring them in there but it's considerable.
Finally is Crater's Claws still a thing? I've been wondering this for a while. I stopped playing it a month and half or so back. I did lose in the mirror to it once yesterday which is the first time I've lost in the mirror since February. Usually it feels like something easy to mitigate and if the postboard plan involves Disdainful Stroke it usually equals Time Walk. But obviously the mirror doesn't matter. It's more of what has fundamentally changed in the format that it isn't as good anymore (same reason unfortunately I hung up my pet card Shaman).. Surrak the Hunt Caller means other aggressive green decks aren't giving you the time. It's a kin to more people playing Siege Rhino. Yes Claws kills Siege Rhino but it also generally costs you 4 mana to do so. They play the 2nd one and you are probably in trouble unless you were significantly ahead. It's the fact they can race you with Surrak now. Additionally while at 2 mana it's a nice temporary foil to Deathmist the timing of Deathmist means you aren't getting in as much damage early so Claws as a finisher is a lot weaker. Arguably it's still a planeswalker killer but generally the increased efficiency of threats now doesn't give the time to waste most of a turn. People are playing big Dragons and counterspells. Claws was always weak against control but it's now a bit of a trap. Unless they tap out you are in this situation where you got go for it and spend a turn but you know you are probably going to get out done on mana efficiency, allowing them to say counter your spell and dig in the same turn. It was common in old lists to trade out Claws for better specific removal and keep it as a sort of concession game 1 but it's verging on not even relevant g1. I like it better than say Roast main deck but I'm trying to figure out if there is anywhere you even passably want it. Like would you ever side into in a matchup if it was in your sideboard as cards 16/17?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Decks: GWUKnightfall Modern UWTempo Legacy UGRBurning Wish Cobra Vintage
First, no 4th Yavimaya Coast. I know it's a small thing but the odds of T2 Knuckleblade go up so much from it's inclusion. I guess the only 8 red untapped sources T2 after that is limiting factor enough. It's probably why I was doing so much pain to myself when I was playing Knuckleblade. It was still super powerful. Short of them having T2 Valorous Stance you were so ahead. That leverage elf angle is a lot less here maybe it's not that significant. I think it's generally fine but ups the probability of clunky hands.
I had that 4th Coast for the longest while...on top of a 2nd Mana Confluence. When I was going harder on the Aggro plan (with Frost Walker, Heir of the Wilds, Boon Satyr, etc) I felt there was no room for discussion when it came to that Coast. It was just THERE. That said, going Sarkhanyer generally meant making sure the land-drops also weren't as painful because I was expecting a slightly longer game. Dropping the 1 Coast was tough, but I needed to make sure I could still hit double-red on turn 3 or 4. Playing a Temple of Mystery over it generally helps in the longer games that I'm expecting. On top of that, the odds aren't THAT much worse. Your turn1 play HAD to be either Coast or Confluence into Elf. Which then had to be either Mountain, or a Pain/Fetch land. It wasn't the least-usual occurrence. But it did lead to some trap hands. Going forward it might be the right move, but only time will tell. Final note: my preferred method of playing a Knuckleblade is on turn 3 with 1 blue-red land untapped...and passing the turn.
The second is more general. I've been trying to determine why we would ever side Wild Slash over say Magma Spray. Main deck hits the player is a great argument but I mean when are you bringing shock in. The upside against Raid and Morph decks seems huge. Maybe you wouldn't bring them in there but it's considerable.
I only ever really side Wild Slash in against the Atarka Red or Monored Decks...maybe Heroic on the play. Those matchups are pretty abysmal. I REALLY wish we had a less narrow answer card. But that's what I've come to. Worse comes to worse, those decks stumble and you can start shooting them in the face.
Finally is Crater's Claws still a thing? I've been wondering this for a while. I stopped playing it a month and half or so back. I did lose in the mirror to it once yesterday which is the first time I've lost in the mirror since February. Usually it feels like something easy to mitigate and if the postboard plan involves Disdainful Stroke it usually equals Time Walk. But obviously the mirror doesn't matter. It's more of what has fundamentally changed in the format that it isn't as good anymore (same reason unfortunately I hung up my pet card Shaman).. Surrak the Hunt Caller means other aggressive green decks aren't giving you the time. It's a kin to more people playing Siege Rhino. Yes Claws kills Siege Rhino but it also generally costs you 4 mana to do so. They play the 2nd one and you are probably in trouble unless you were significantly ahead. It's the fact they can race you with Surrak now. Additionally while at 2 mana it's a nice temporary foil to Deathmist the timing of Deathmist means you aren't getting in as much damage early so Claws as a finisher is a lot weaker. Arguably it's still a planeswalker killer but generally the increased efficiency of threats now doesn't give the time to waste most of a turn. People are playing big Dragons and counterspells. Claws was always weak against control but it's now a bit of a trap. Unless they tap out you are in this situation where you got go for it and spend a turn but you know you are probably going to get out done on mana efficiency, allowing them to say counter your spell and dig in the same turn. It was common in old lists to trade out Claws for better specific removal and keep it as a sort of concession game 1 but it's verging on not even relevant g1. I like it better than say Roast main deck but I'm trying to figure out if there is anywhere you even passably want it. Like would you ever side into in a matchup if it was in your sideboard as cards 16/17?
I side 1 claws out against the typical Esper list...Initially I had more Roast in the main, but drawing them against Esper when it was the most represented deck in the meta was miserable. Sometimes though, you just gotta get 'em. I don't know if I'd sideboard the Claws in against anything if they were in the board. But I only ever really sideboard them out against Esper. Maybe I'd drop to 1 against MonoRed. But there it's basically a Pillar of Flame.
Sometimes you hit a board stall against another midrange deck (mostly Abzan), and you just need that last bit of reach to punch through. It's why I dropped down to 2 of them. We don't have many mana-efficient answers to big dragons (short of Reality Shift or the very narrow Plummet-type spells), and sometimes you just need to shoot something big. What's nice about Crater's Claws is its scaling effect, which is pretty typical for Temur. If you have board presence and are either even or ahead on the field, you're doing great. When you're behind it's a bit of a slog.
I guess thing with Crater's Claws is having access to one is actually pretty good even if you don't necessarily want them. Having one just means in the right situation I could maybe buy it back with Den Protector etc.. I've been looking for cards that might be narrow but are complete trumps in certain matchups. It's why I like Back to Nature so much. But having one of a card that does a fairly powerful effect that isn't completely narrow seems to have some merit.
I've been pretty much in denial of Dromoka existing. I know I can't beat that card easily. Nor can I readily play enough cards to deal with decks that play it. So it is sort of problematic. Every time I've beat Dromoka so far has involved Mob Rule. One game I managed to fight it twice buying back Raptors but they matched me on Havens. In a sense Stormbreath can keep it at bay but it usually is accompanied by other dragons I can no longer counter. But outside of that and GR Bees I don't think there is anything even remotely for these colors. Sarkhan trumps Elspeth I find in real games.
So really I'm at that point where I'm looking for real small percentages. Getting into the realm of minimal returns. Just won another 8 man just now, beat Abzan Megamorph, Esper Control, and GR Atarka Red. This time in my flex spot I put in Crater's Claws, but I never played it. Similarly how I never played See the Unwritten when I had it in the slot. I feel pretty confident about 59 cards of my main deck. I'm playing a couple 3 copies in the deck that's I can move up to 4's to round it out but that's at the already crowded 3 drop slot. I could add another 4 or 5 but nothing is dynamic enough. Maybe the deck doesn't need much of anything but there is definitely this feeling that I have a little room and I don't really want the 4th Courser or Den Protector. Nothing from Sideboard is really good enough to bring in main. I've moved far enough from Ferocious that those cards aren't as good anymore as a maindeck plan.
I think I'm going to try Purphoros.. I know sounds weird.. but I think it might just have the right utility.
My question essentially is what are you trying to get out of Purphoros? He seems fine in those hands where you flood the board and can drop him sometime around Xenagos. But he's a pretty miserable top deck most of the time. And is especially useless on an empty field. What I'm getting at is why him? If you're looking for a 1-of/fun-of wouldn't it be better to get something with higher impact? Almost any of the other Temur Gods seem preferable. I mean...I've even had great luck with the Dragonlord since it's usually a great top deck and awesome when you flood out. The face is your deck is built a lot like CVMs initial GR dragons list from Syracuse where topping off at Atarka was the end goal. You even have multiple ways to ramp it out even faster with flipped rattleclaw and Xenagos.
Again, just a thought. I'm not sure your reasoning on Purphoros, so maybe I missed something.
I feel like atarka is just like desecration demon. It just slams the door on the game so fast it doesn't give your opponent enough time to recover. Sometimes he eats a few guys. I don't feel atarka is ever really win more. I think it is the finisher we have to play. Elspeth is still very good vs raptor decks. Atarka is the trump.
I like see the unwritten as a 1 of just because our top decks are terrible late game. We have a lot of very low impact mana dorks that don't do anything. We don't have a gavony township to or anthem to give them importance. StU lets us bypass some of the bricks on top of our deck and get to the action. Ferocious or not I cast it because I always look at it as if I'm casting stormbreath dragon. Many times we just need to keep up the pressure.
I like the bees package vs red decks. Game 1 is not in our favor. After sideboard it is still close. A turn 2 honets nest usually shuts them down for a few turns.
I side in roast vs Seige Rhino decks. Those decks always run Courser so you have plenty of targets for it.
Crater's Claws is a valid finisher. I'm still playing 2 in mine. I like how flexible it is. Vs aggro decks its a nice shock most of the time for a tempo play. Everything else it can end the game easily.
My question essentially is what are you trying to get out of Purphoros? He seems fine in those hands where you flood the board and can drop him sometime around Xenagos. But he's a pretty miserable top deck most of the time. And is especially useless on an empty field. What I'm getting at is why him? If you're looking for a 1-of/fun-of wouldn't it be better to get something with higher impact? Almost any of the other Temur Gods seem preferable. I mean...I've even had great luck with the Dragonlord since it's usually a great top deck and awesome when you flood out. The face is your deck is built a lot like CVMs initial GR dragons list from Syracuse where topping off at Atarka was the end goal. You even have multiple ways to ramp it out even faster with flipped rattleclaw and Xenagos.
Again, just a thought. I'm not sure your reasoning on Purphoros, so maybe I missed something.
I feel like atarka is just like desecration demon. It just slams the door on the game so fast it doesn't give your opponent enough time to recover. Sometimes he eats a few guys. I don't feel atarka is ever really win more. I think it is the finisher we have to play. Elspeth is still very good vs raptor decks. Atarka is the trump.
I like see the unwritten as a 1 of just because our top decks are terrible late game. We have a lot of very low impact mana dorks that don't do anything. We don't have a gavony township to or anthem to give them importance. StU lets us bypass some of the bricks on top of our deck and get to the action. Ferocious or not I cast it because I always look at it as if I'm casting stormbreath dragon. Many times we just need to keep up the pressure.
I like the bees package vs red decks. Game 1 is not in our favor. After sideboard it is still close. A turn 2 honets nest usually shuts them down for a few turns.
I side in roast vs Seige Rhino decks. Those decks always run Courser so you have plenty of targets for it.
Crater's Claws is a valid finisher. I'm still playing 2 in mine. I like how flexible it is. Vs aggro decks its a nice shock most of the time for a tempo play. Everything else it can end the game easily.
Both of your guys comments actually cover most of what I'm looking for in Purphoros. First question to both of you are you guys playing a a few Sarkhan's? I realized I've gone from being the guy playing the aggro version of the deck to the guy playing the midrange version of the deck. However, the threat density is still very high. 8 Dragons + 3 Sarkhan is a lot of dragons. It feels sometimes like I'm playing 14 once you factor in Haven too. In fact it's so many dragons it gets to a point in many games that you play consecutive dragons T3-T6. Usually that's enough to win a game quite aggressively. However when it's not it's actually quite good to set up a defensive game. This was the biggest change I realized a while ago. Sarkhan with Deathmist to hold the ground can out grind any deck in the format not on sweepers. But sweepers generally aren't a problem for the deck anyway. I've beat show downs against Dromoka or Silumgar simply on them not being able to attack and with being able to draw cards every turn. Sure I can't beat them quick enough in these cases but going all aggro wouldn't help that. It lends to the fact that my removal of choice is permission.
The problem with Atarka is I'm never prepared to make the investment on time. You leave yourself super vulnerable when you tap out for it early. And if the opponent has opportunity for the same sort of play with say Caryatids it becomes a bit awkward. When it's not on time it can be a card you can't cast from your hand. I actually prefer playing cheaper threats and countering their big play. Then by the time I have 7 mana playing Den Protector, rebuy and counter their big play again. You basically get to time walk them while promoting your board. With this sort of line though in the games you don't straight up win in the air (like let's say they have a bunch of Hidden Dragon Slayers and Plummets) you end up locking up the board at which point you are going to draw random mana dorks. Even a See the Unwritten or Atarka aren't going to win it for you at that point. My experience with Atarka actually ended up exactly like that. If I was able to T4 it, it usually meant my hand had very little else going on. So if the opponent say killed the Rattleclaw or killed the Atarka immediately sometimes that was enough to just lose the game even if I took out their Fleecemane Lion with Atarka. If the opponent had permission well Atarka isn't doing the job. 7 was too much often against aggro (not that Purphoros is any good there). The one place he was exceptional was against the GR dragons mirror or any sort of green ramp (not Deathmist/Den Protector) deck. However my experience playing against it is the opponent goes for it, I Disdainful Stroke then I win the game. And for 2 mana that plan was actually better against both of those decks.
The typical pattern for my deck in a board lock is Xenagos make a 2/2 every turn. Sarkhan make one 4/4, then continue to draw cards every turn. On average I play 2 creatures a turn, and only end up attacking with a Dragon (if not scared of air attacks) or Deathmist Raptors which I can rebuy on which turns I effectively play up 2 creatures more a turn on average. In this state Purphoros deals anywhere from 4-8 damage a turn. About as much as swing with a couple dragons from a perfectly defensible position. Basically it's a reverse Mastery of the Unseen. At a certain point a + Xenagos makes a pretty good impression of Gavony Township. Now I know it's not a land so I don't get it for free. But other than Nylea it is the easiest God for this deck to turn on with a lot of double red mana Symbols.
I was actually looking for Equipment but there is none decent to be hand. I really didn't want to put another Enchantment in the deck but I wanted something to do a couple things:
1. Give game to late game dorks. These decks need usually need something like that and it usually has to be something that isn't easy to just kill. A shock coming down and the ability to make a Rattle Claw Mystic a 4/2 attacking can be enough.
2. Need a way to break board stalls especially against decks that can gain more life a turn than I can deal damage with Dragons. Mob Rule is decent but it is not main-deckable. Sometimes Dromoka/Arbor Colossus prompts stalls in the air. Having a way to do direct damage behind them can actually be pretty good.
3. Have something that situation pending I can play on curve. Sometimes you would just play a Sword on 3 even if you had no intention of equipping it to the Elf the next turn just to be efficient. A late game go for it trump can often leave you open if it's too expensive. At a certain point you want to leverage being able to play 2 spells in a turn (ie leaving mana up on their turn).
4. Something that arguably in a certain threat in itself. If things are going well it's a super efficient 4 drop with an indestructible 6/5 body. This is a decent wall in Deathmist mirrors.
Nylea as I said is pretty close, but it's more of a Kessig Wolf Run than a Gavony and the Trample ability while cute with Deathtouch actually does a lot less. It takes a whole lot more investment mid-late to make the big attack. A green opponent with Nylea and big creatures generally wins this stand off. But a deck without big creatures Nylea is a lot less impressive. Xenagos, puts the focus in one place. If a big flier or 2 were going to win the game you would have won the game already. Assuming you are running Sarkhan/Courser, Keranos does very little you don't already have covered. Doing 3 a turn seems decent but it's still not quite enough. I mean I was pretty high on Soul of Shandalaar in the fall since it was huge and had huge upside (it's the biggest creature in Standard if you untap with it, first strike + 3 damage to would be creature in combat basically wins it battles in anything with less than 10 toughness). It's still not a bad choice at 6 in this sort of deck, but it also can just die. Thalia might as well be Monastery Siege. The unblockable can be good but it itself being there doesn't quite do enough. I tried all the Sieges too. Outpost Siege is slow when you aren't drawing spells, it's basically more threats or more lands, it's better than Monastery Siege and on Dragons can win games in board stalls but I'm not suggesting playing multiple so it really depends on when you play it. Frontier Siege doesn't really solve any problems a fight here or there or extra mana isn't going to be leveraged in this sort of deck. You will hit more mana than good cards at a certain point.
So let's go back and look at this from a curve perspective. With 23 lands and 8 dorks, I don't think you can play more than 7 5+ drops. I didn't invent this number, this is just the classic formula for these decks. I realize there is Xenagos, and Courser but things have to flow pretty positively to go much higher than that. To me it's Sarkhan or Atarka. Or maybe both but to play Atarka I'd have to cut some number of Sarkhan. I know Tom Ross' list didn't but he played Caryatid that is arguably a better dork on this plan. My Rattleclaw Mystics do 3 things:
1. Provide mana ramp on T2.
2. Get played morph mid to late game to buy back Den Protectors.
3. Get played as a morph immediately at 3 mana and eat removal (since no one can risk a Den Protector living).
You can use this to your advantage. If you have a reasonable curve and a lot of 4/5 drops that are good run out the Rattleclaw because they will kill it. This frees up removal on your bigger threats. If you are short on untapped mana play it face up and play a tapland. The chances of them killing it are low unless they just left mana up to do precisely that. Mid to late game swap up your flipped cards. So they aren't sure which are better to kill. The difference is Caryatid will almnost never die and you can count it against a lot of decks as land. If my deck had 27 lands I'd consider a bit higher top end. But I do lose something in the bargain (Deathmist recursion). If you look at Jund Monsters curve from last year it wasn't even that ambitious unless against some postboard games against control and I think that plan was more out of necessity than goodness.
So if anything what I'm looking for costs less than 5 mana. Or atleast situationally does so. This does make stuff like Become Immense or Crater's Claws seem better. However, both of those cards suffer in that when I get into those sort of games, it's actually tokens or Deathmists that are entering my graveyard more than anything, and anything else I'd likely want to buy back. Secondly in my current list I have no creatures with cmc less than 4 with 4 power so incidental Shock on Claws is no longer a thing. Fireball you tap out has the same issues as Atarka and if not in range is even less powerful arguably. I'm looking for something that works well with what I'm already playing. Surrak, Hunt Caller is arguably the best choice it unfortunately doesn't really provide a different angle to the deck. It still dies to Hero's Downfall and do very little in a board stall. Shaman of the Great Hunt is also great until you consider how easy it is to kill and generally if you have gone slower like I have you don't get those 1-2 punches early. Shaman just trades. It's still great in board stalls and is probably why I was such an advocate for such a long time. More planeswalkers don't really do it either. Kiora and Chandra have purpose but they don't leverage what the deck is doing. I've had a game with active Chandra, Sarkhan and Courser, and yes Ancestral Recall every turn is sweet. But there are enough cases it isn't right. What is the deck doing a lot of if the plan gets halted? Generating excess mana, drawing cards, making tokens, and recurring bodies. It seems to match with Purphoros.
Now I'm not completely sold on it being good enough. All those other 4's have reasonable merit, it's just that it provides a very different angle to the deck which let's me leverage different sorts of plans if needed. However, for the meantime I'm completely sold on 8 Dragons + 3 Sarkhan so not so much in the market for more top end. The timing is too critical, and having a big spell that sometimes wins comes with the downside of having the big spell you can't cast. It's a risk that I don't think is worth playing when I already have that angle covered. Sarkhan is very good even in multiples. I mean you got to ask yourself if you are just trying to see the unwritten into a Dragon, how different is that from say Sarkhan into one or two. Sarkhan is slower, but he's also got a turn head start.
I like how you play enough blue to play AEtherspouts out of the board. This seems like a fairly reasonable place to take Company. I like no Elvish Mystic for that reason. It does mean that decks with Elvish Mystic can get the drop on you. But we don't play this for the green mirror. The trade off I see in this list is more evasion for less midgame. Like at first looking at the list Den Protector seems like a big exclusion since it can buy back some of the best things you are doing. However, looking at the board this is how you make Seismic Rupture actually reasonable in your deck. If need be it only kills Rattleclaw and Boon Satyr. And in the matchups you want rupture, Boon Satyr is probably a Lightning Strike effectively anyway. The deck is a bit lower powered than some of the company decks I've seen since Knuckleblade is the only like really powerhouse flip but you fliers can atleast buy sometime against decks that play big dragons and counterspells. Against a dedicated control deck you can always play the slow, morph Stratus Dancer game so that's find probably for all but the most proactive decks of that nature. And let's face it we all have issues with Dromoka. I think it's an interesting take. It might suffer from not being able to close against a deck that seeks to stabilize on board (versus sweep) especially if the deck plays Elvish Mystic but cheap fliers and cards like Sarkhan give some interesting angles to hold the game.
If I was the opponent I'd attack this deck by leveraging the difficulty to convert after the 3 mana point. Any deck that can wedge the window between say Face Down morph T3 and Collective Company/Sarkhan will greatly have the power advantage since so many of the cards in the deck are actually not very powerful comparatively. So keep that in mind when playing the game. Never risk playing your 4 or 5 drop into permission and hope they don't curve smoother than you proactively to which they can play better threats while keeping you back. Keeping you back can often be all they need, since at a certain point even Collected Company can't break through. This is true against any larger green deck with removal or control deck. I'm interested to say the least if the flier evasion angle can overcome this shortcoming.
I have been playing your list with the changes I suggested. My side is different for my play area of course.
Thinking about dropping Courser completely at this point. IMO the only reason this guy has been good for so long is that the 3 drop spot has been very bad since theros. Nothing has really changed. I'm not sure what I'd replace him with.
Other than that I'm happy with the deck. There isn't much innovation you can really do.
I can't agree with that. Check out my deck. In many ways similar in spirit to ryansolid's, but has a large number of different cards. (Currently no red cards, but that can change.) It has been cleaning up at my store for the past month.
I am always looking for ways to improve it, and splashing red would be easy if the value is there. I would have to say no to the double-red dragons, and I don't have much Ferocious so Crater's Claws isn't as valuable. Of the remaining cards, Sarkhan looks most interesting.
You mentioned trouble with Dromoka, and to that card my answer is Curse of the Swine, besides Arbor Colossus. The curse is also very handy against Abzan Aggro. Meanwhile against non-Dromoka dragons I prefer Polymorphist's Jest. Just saying if Aetherspouts was an option, those two cards may serve even better.
Synergy alert:
With Courser, Sphinx and Whisperwood, you can scry up a land for Courser, a morph to manifest and a spell to draw every turn. Or you can scry ahead for any answer. If you get that combo, you almost certainly win.
Winning: There's three main ways. Overwhelming numbers of manifests, Setessan Tactics to sweep away the enemy, or just doing 3 over and over with Sphinx.
Losing: There are very few ways: Very aggressive play (especially with tempo-gaining tricks) overrunning us before our 5-drops take control; flyers that come early and don't get stopped in time; infinite life gain with Whip. Controlling us is absolutely NOT a viable approach.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Awesome Deck: UWAll-In GiftsWU Consistent, Resiliant, and way overpowered, making multiple 4/4s per turn.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWUFree Stuff MidrangeUWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
Sorry but it is true. You take the current base green build. Starting at 3 mana on the curve going up to 7 these are your possible number of threats.
At 3 mana three choices of cards to play
At 4 mana four choices
At 5 mana three choices
At 6 mana one choice
At 7 mana one choice
No matter if you are playing RUG, R/G, or G/U the cards all overlap on the curve between all these decks. Everything is close to the same power level right now. It isn't because of lack of choices. Rather all the choices are really the same with small edges in one direction or another.
Lajobe, what do you think of Thassa (instead of prognostic sphinx). I played it for a while back in December/January to quite good effect. I switched up the splash and haven't gone back to Thassa, but I have been thinking about it quite oten. Of course, she never gets online, but the scry and the unblockable are both quite useful.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Because we cannot prevent draws in paper Magic we allow IDs. If we could prevent draws we would not have IDs in paper Magic. " Scott Larabee.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
3 mountain
3 forest
4 yavimaya coast
2 temple of mystery
2 temple of abandon
2 shivan reef
4 wooded foothills
4 craters claw
3 stubborn denial
4 sylvan caryatid
4 courser of kruphix
4 savage knuckle blade
4 thunderbreak regent
4 stormbreath dragon
3 yasova dragonclaw
3 sarkhan, the unbroken
Sometimes the deck seems slow sometimes and clunky but other times it curves nicely and works as intended.. I'm interested in testing your idea of draconic roar in place of maybe the wild slashes... I'm not a fan of frost walker because it seems too insignificant in most matches. Sarkhan has been great especially with courser out. Death mist and den protector are obviously powerful cards but I'm not quite sure if they have a place in temur I lack the faith that temur is great at being grindy... I'll post more details when I get to a desktop
The base problem with Temur is the mana. Basically Savage Knuckleblade is at odds with Elvish Mystic and I'd take Elvish Mystic every time. You can play them together but it becomes essentially your 4 drop. Competing with other 4's and the real problem in these decks is the lack of 3's. I mean you can fall into Monsters timing but that's too clunky without the level of answers we had last format. Basically at 3 I think the best all around cards right now are Courser of Kruphix and Deathmist Raptor. The other 3's are just not good enough. Once on that path it's super easy if you are in the market to find a little value from it. I think I do want to edit my board a bit. I don't see myself wanting more than 3 Den Protectors, and I think Stratus Dancer while cute matters less now that I am playing Courser.
From my inclusion of Frost Walker it must be clear I'm in strong opposition of the Caryatid Camp. I don't know if it's good enough as I move to more taplands but I definitely think the deck needs more than 4 2 drops on the proactive curve. I think my split might just be wrong. Maybe it should be 4 Rattleclaw and 1 Frost Walker. I mean Frost Walker wins me tons of games. And every time I'm against Abzan Aggro or Control I'm so grateful to have it. Maybe it should be something else especially now how many taplands I play. That being said I like a decks ability to brute force. Especially in a format with a bunch of Dragons. Against Dragon heavy decks I intend to have them on the backfoot out the gate. It's all about the timing and I feel my understanding of it is why I also do so well in green mirrors. I haven't lost a round to an opponent playing Knuckleblade since it's printing. Not that some of my own lists didn't play it. Just a timing thing. And some awkwardness in the curve, misdraw is all it takes. It's why I think this new list is doing better. Simply a curve concern. It really came down to having game when you know you have a 2 lander with 2 dorks, and they kill/thoughtseize your dorks and you don't draw another land for 5 turns. Having enough to do at 2 and 3 and interact with their game, that say a Frost Walker and a Disdainful Stroke is enough to win the game. This sort of thing still happens all the time even with 31 mana sources and temples. Bogs my mind but I'm winning through it. It's possible having Roar does enough on it's own but in those situations it's usually the proactive plays you are lacking.
Sideboard wise I've won another game off Mob Rule. I think it's the right one of out of the board. I think Stratus Dancer can go. That's a control slot / mono red. Maybe Stratus Dancer is still the best option there. It's that, Denial, or Negate that is really applicable in both matchups. Red matchup is still close. It's always going to game 3 if I lose game 1, but game 3 is always just one card down. Like they top deck exactly what they need the turn before I can get shields up. It isn't like the odds are against them to. But it's that close. Like I finally stabilize on blockers around 7 life(with Courser on board) but need to tap out so I can't hold up Denial, and they have one card in hand and end up with exactly 2 Stokes. I lost a game with 2 Coursers on board and a 3rd in hand like that.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
4 Frontier Biovac
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Temple of Epiphany
1 Temple of Mystery
3 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Mana Confluence
4 Yavimaya Coast
1 Shivan Reef
2 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
Planeswalker (2)
2 Sarkhan Unbroken
Creature (26)
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Frost Walker
2 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Savage Knuckleblade
3 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
4 Thunderbreak Regent
1 Surrak Dragonclaw
1 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Sagu Mauler
1 Dragonlord Atarka
4 Stubborn Denial
Sorcery (4)
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Shamanic Revelation
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Back to Nature
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Feed the Clan
3 Roast
1 Plummet
1 Sagu Mauler
1 Dragonlord Atarka
2 Encase in Ice
Angers are mostly for Deathmist/Protector. Pretty much just trying to go big, with Shamanic Revelation putting me ahead of other midrange decks, hopefully being just fast enough and having the ability to use some timely Denials to push through the damage against control and then Angers and guys that are too big to attack through hopefully doing what I need it to against aggro. Never played Temur before though, so opinions welcome.
1. I have for that is I think you have to give up on Haven if you want to play Knuckleblade. You don't play enough dragons for Haven to be as excellent anyway. But I mean it's nice to get value off your lands.
2. Anger is a fine card and decent sideboard card but it's a liability 10 cards of your own it kills maindeck. If it only killed say 4 it's passable. But at 10 it's no good.
As for the comment on Sagu Mauler. I've actually recently been bouncing around with the card but I don't see it doing anything relevant. Spot removal isn't these decks weaknesses. In fact with the cheap counters you'd often prefer the opponent thinking they can kill your stuff. A body that just dies to Deathmist with a Lightning Strike tagged on is less impressive than say a bunch of dragons. If things had carried on like before I think there would be a strong case but both Surrak and Thunderbreak at 4cmc have fundamentally changed the timing of these decks. Almost everything in the set incentivizes to go the dragon way from the Haven inclusion to Crux being the awkward sweeper. It's hard to argue for a situationally better card when the tools to leverage the dragons are so abundant and easy to include.
That said It might be interesting to see how a morph tempo control deck would work with like 2 Maulers.. Make it basically a Deathmist Raptor/Protector/Counterspell deck. And have Mauler be your win condition. Sort of makes the dragons look silly (other than the Drifting Death and Dromoka). Mind you if I was on that plan I think I'd play Sultai. I mean why not have access to your own Silumgar's and spot removal if you aren't going to leverage the haste and in your faceness of the red inclusion.
=================================
List for today:
I've been trying to just focus on the stuff I like and trim out the stuff that is more conditional main. It has led to some compromises in the sideboard but maybe this makes for a better deck. The key consideration is going down to 23 lands by trading a certain number of Caryatids. The tension has been at 24 lands you really want 25, however you can't afford it on density and defensively against aggro. But Rattleclaw gets killed so readily that it's hard to count it as guarenteed mana. Caryatid short of the Anger decks can be. But you never want to draw more than 1 in a game. This allows me to sneak Den Protector in at no cost basically and keep the 4 additional morphs to keep Deathmist live. To fill it out I just jam more of the powerful cards I want to ramp into. Yes Surrak + Cayartid is a bit awkward, but in this deck it isn't always about the haste Surrak but rather the Surrah who holds the ground while Sarkhan makes haste dragons. To accomplish this I had to cut down on my reactive spells main and I think with exactly 5 slots where I want to be is 3 Draconic Roar + 2 Disdainful Stroke. It doesn't always align right but it basically gives you an answer for cheap stuff and expensive stuff. Sure you can't as readily protect your threats game 1, but you do play a lot of them. The biggest loss in percentage in this sort of move is you don't just blow out Jeskai Ascendancy game 1 where they think it's easy and you just have the Denial up without even ferocity. I think I can live with that. Stroke still hits Collected Company, Stoke, Planeswalkers not named Ashiok, Heelcutter, Siege Rhino, etc.. As usually I'm trying to scrape by with the minimal amount of reactive cards that cover the largest base while still being effective there. Like Denial is a much wider card but I'm thinking it's not always effective enough to be worth the position main.
In the end the sideboard ends up looking like a bunch of 2 ofs etc.. But if you look at it you can see how some cards play similar roles in different matchups so you can arrange them to get the right numbers. Like I cut a circle of flame for another Magma Spray since it's good against green decks that ramp etc.. I am yet to see if I can streamline the sideboard, or if this streamlining of the main deck is effective enough.
4 Frontier Biovac
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Temple of Epiphany
2 Temple of Mystery
2 Forest
3 Mountain
1 Mana Confluence
4 Yavimaya Coast
2 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
Creatures(26):
4 Elvish Mystic
2 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Rattleclaw Mystic
2 Den Protector
4 Deathmist Raptor
3 Courser of Kruphix
4 Thunderbreak Regent
2 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
3 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Disdainful Stroke
3 Draconic Roar
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
3 Sarkhan Unbroken
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Magma Spray
2 Back to Nature
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Epic Confrontation
2 Circle of Flame
2 Hornet Nest
1 Den Protector
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Mob Rule
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Needs a little tweaking, but it works pretty well against Jeskai and Control match-ups. Mono-red is a toss-up after the addition of Twin Bolt in the side. Haven't really tested against Abzan. Let me know your thoughts! I've been considering Kiora, Xenagos, and Courser. Courser of Kruphix might work better than Rattleclaw Mystic, in this deck.
4 Frontier Bivouac
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Temple of Mystery
2 Forest
3 Mountain
2 Island
3 Yavimaya Coast
2 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
1 Rugged Highlands
1 Swiftwater Cliffs
Creatures(24):
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Savage Knuckleblade
4 Thunderbreak Regent
2 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
3 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Icefall Regent
1 Dragonlord Atarka
4 Draconic Roar
3 Silumgar's Scorn
2 Crater's Claws
1 Dragonlord's Prerogative
2 Sarkhan Unbroken
4 Roast
4 Twin Bolt
4 Stubborn Denial
2 Dig Through Time
1 Dragonlord Atarka
I've been following this thread for a while; it's nice to finally contribute.
Besides what I've said ad nauseum about playing Knuckleblade with Haven, Blue mana is really the only issue. You sit at 13. I found 13+2 Havens is right on the edge to play Icefall. I mean it was enough that I stopped playing it. Mind you in other formats I've played that mana red sources and played Stormbreath so it's not he worst. Silumgar's Scorn though is a much tougher inclusion. I've played it with that many sources and there will be times where it bites you. I mean I'm gathering it's not supposed to be the T2 play in this deck, but you are about 3 blue sources short of it getting in the sweet spot mana wise.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
I'm wondering if an aggro variant with Collected Company might be good.
I will try another perspective. How many sources could you play in a Boros Reckoner or Leatherback Baloth deck.. you needed atleast 20.. so maybe 3 possibly. Now picture if the card got huge value.. if it cost was 4 colored mana symbols. You basically need the odds of hitting 3-4 land drops of colored mana.. which is similar to hitting your 3-4 land drops in a normal deck.. so that should be 23-24 lands.. how many Havens is that?
I've said it in atleast 5 posts in the last month, so I guess I'm done saying. But it is so clear to me from my testing I will go out and flat say it's incorrect if you play Knuckleblade and any land before your 24th is a Haven and even that's close.. I'd probably argue your 25th. Dorks do help, but if you want to do it on time ie.. T3... you still can't play Haven then.
Company is fine, been down that road. We have some great 3's.. it just doesn't want to be in a deck with Elvish Mystic, and other mana ramp.. Too much liability on hitting those so it works best if your cards sinergize with each other like lords and such.. Not sure Temur is the right place.
=========================================
As for my own testing.. I've cut both Surrak's for the 4th Courser and the 3rd Den Protector.. bit concerned about air, but the consistency of the deck is so much better. It's feeling more like a real deck. Just need to work on the numbers a bit more. Also Disdainful Stroke main is awesome right now. No regrets trading out Stubborn Denial.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
The deck is designed to be an invalidator to Abzan. You are basically you are about the same size as Abzan Midrange but you are faster. This means you are the bigger deck against Abzan Aggro, and although you are the aggressor against Abzan Midrange you can play a long game. Sarkhan is deadly against them especially if they aren't on the Ajani plan. They can't keep up on cards and at any moment you threaten doing like 14 points in an alpha strike. Once I learned not to attack and use my Stormbreath defensively with Sarkhan when there weren't good attacks I have been able to generally always keep a step ahead of them while moving to a position where I can eclipse their removal with my recursion. Even if they have their own Den Protectors generally they have to use a certain number of cards against Sarkhan's dragons. It is only problematic in a scenario where they hit all their Den Protectors and Raptors and you don't hit your Den Protectors. Xenagos and Sarkhan both can keep them at bay and trade cards for tokens with them for so long that you can usually outdraw them significantly with the help of Courser and Sarkhan.
The value you get off your cards and the ability to threaten lethal board actually makes this deck very good against Control with only a little bit of help. While not purely as effective as my old haste plan(ie you have actually play a game that you might lose) the matchup is still like 65%. It was a bit zealous to play a deck that suffered so much with Aggro just to have about a 90% matchup with control. In so I only have 3 sideboard slots for control and it's all I need. A lot of controllish decks these days actually benefit from you keeping in a Draconic Roar or 2 or Epic Confrontation or Mob Rule depending. The Courser/Deathmist/Draconic Roar main actually helps a lot against Aggro as well. Meaning I can use that base and have a varied set of different tools for other matchups. There is a good chance those Circles of Flame should be Twin Bolts, but I'm leaving it as is for now since it is very effective where it is effective. Twin Bolt shores up Jeskai Ascendancy more than anything and I'm sort of taking a small hedge there. Epic Confrontation is basically my Roast and it has served me well. It's basically like playing Hunt the Hunter or Savage Punch, both cards that have seen sideboard play in these sort of decks, without having to be green or ferocious. The +1/+2 does everything a +1/+1 doesn't do (otherwise I'd consider Temur Charm). Most notably allow Deathmist to kill 4/5's like Tasigur and Siege Rhino without trading and Elvish Mystic to kill any other mana dork without trading. Courser can even post block kill another Courser. Obviously the card doesn't do much with Rattleclaw or Den Protector which is largely what makes it not good enough for red matchups.
This biggest change with this list is move towards more of the cards that promote the main(Sarkhan) gameplan. This means 4 Coursers. The more Sarkhan's and Coursers I played the better the deck felt. When I was playing 0 Coursers I'd have good draws and then I'd have mediocre draws that felt like only 20% of the time became good draws. It seemed if I got an active Sarkhan the whole deck came together. Not because of the dragons but because drawing the cards meant I was hitting my land drops. If I played more lands the deck would tend to flood. Even at 24 lands it sometimes was pretty awkward. The mana mix finally feels right. Similarly I went back to the 4th Stormbreath Dragon. If I'm going to curve that's what I want to be doing. This meant the 2 Surraks had to go and I actually trimmed one more Xenagos. I've found the 3rd one fine but not needed. With Den Protector (which I added the 3rd) I can buy back whatever I absolutely need. Xenagos is a good card but not an every game worth risking having one trapped in your hand card. Sarkhan is because you can always cash him in at anytime ie.. pull the make 3 dragons in 2 turns line with 2 of them. With Sarkhan and the 8 Dragons you are still pretty good to pull ferocious. Stubborn Denial is a bit worse and it's in the board for that reason. Still if every Sarkhan is worth 1.5 dragons on average, we're still looking at a ferocious count of close to 13. Which is passable, if you consider Deathmist can also be and Haven and Den Protector for recursion. Stubborn Denial is generally only 2 cards anyway. It's Force Spike or it's Ranger's Guile when you have something worth protecting. In the latter case usually that thing worth protecting has power of 4 or greater.
4 Frontier Biovac
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Temple of Abandon
1 Temple of Epiphany
2 Forest
3 Mountain
1 Mana Confluence
4 Yavimaya Coast
2 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
Creatures(27):
4 Elvish Mystic
2 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Rattleclaw Mystic
3 Den Protector
4 Deathmist Raptor
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Thunderbreak Regent
4 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Disdainful Stroke
3 Draconic Roar
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
3 Sarkhan Unbroken
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Magma Spray
2 Destructive Revelry
1 Disdainful Stroke
2 Epic Confrontation
2 Circle of Flame
2 Hornet Nest
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Mob Rule
So where's Frost Walker you ask? Basically Deathmist Raptor invalidated it. Frost Walker is only more recently getting more attention in other decks (partially thanks to CoCo) but it was actually a really good card pre Dragons of Tarkir (outside of the popularity of token strategies). In fact one of the few things that incentivized going the Knuckleblade path. Generally either the opponent paid equal or more expensive removal on it, traded a creature they didn't want to, usually take on average 2 hits which with the lands etc usually meant starting at about 10 life.. mind you that only mitigated that you yourself was starting at about 16 life due to your own lands. Still great deal against decks that didn't play Wild Slash main and had the ability to kill you in 4 turns. Against decks with black removal it usually freed the path for bigger threats like Knuckles. Now the non-blocking non-removal opponent plays Deathmist Raptor.. and trades then buys it back.. you still start at 16 and they are starting at 19 basically. In this case it's better just to start at 19 yourself and Draconic Roar their Raptor to attack through and they can start at 16. It's a shame it didn't get leveraged as much before but it's past it's time now. Sort of like Rabblemaster which isn't a safe bet unless you are playing black removal or have a mechanism to make your creatures unblockable.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
See the Unwritten is insane with deathmist raptor. Dumping raptors into the yard to be brought back later.
Deck feels like it needs a finisher. Atarka is the best in our colors. Closes games out very fast vs control. Dominates the midrange decks.
Courser does nothing in any game I play. Red has stoke the flames ready for him. Everything else is playing hero's downfall and Ultimate Price. Card just dies to removal every game and usually loses me too much tempo. Not to mention my "land on top of deck" % is extremely low.
Another experiment I was trying today was now that I have better idea how these decks should work mid to late game I tried Wayfinder again. Still way too slow. I was inspired by the Abzan and GWBU Dragons Megamorph decks. Those decks have their angles but my ramp generally beats them. Matching their timing was not to my benefit at all. After trying Wayfinder again I think the decks that do the same thing with Rattleclaw just advantaged unless the opponent just happens to mill exactly raptors and draws all Den Protectors. This only happens a small percentage of the time. I've even beat decks that have out Den Protectored me of the sheer power off of Sarkhan.
Still the lack of finisher still is true. This is sort of same problem Jund Monsters had last year. Monsters atleast had the ability to punch large points of damage with Ghor Clan. I find with this deck the time to alpha strike is always 2 turns after my instinctual desire to. That being said the consistency in a field with so much turmoil feels incredibly nice. I don't think it's the finisher that is the problem exactly in that Stormbreath and Sarkhan do a lot. There is just no card in the deck that just feels I win without work. There is no Siege Rhino. No Bonfire of the Damned. No Overrun. Every advantage is gained by grinding your threats into their removal. It's somewhat vindicating when it becomes obvious that your more creatures actually outpace their removal but it's not like you are building up for the Vengevine. Even to recur Deathmist takes some work. This isn't Next Level Bant. It's more like Vengevine Naya before Fauna Shaman was printed, but there is no cute Collar Sparkmage angle. You are no better at grinding than anyone else.
Which has me thinking. Is the bees sideboard plan reasonable? Like Roast and Hornet's Nests. It's basically your Basilisk Collar move. Maybe it's too many card investment. The package needs I think minimum:
3 Hornet's Nest
2 Roast
1 Setessian Tactics
1 Chandra Pyromaster
You could pad that with a couple Twin Bolts. For added value against aggro. So that's like 9 slots.. I do have 9 slots to play with. So sideboard like this maybe:
2 Stubborn Denial
1 Disdainful Stroke
2 Back to Nature
2 Twin Bolt
1 Setessian Tactics
2 Roast
3 Hornet Nest
1 Chandra Pyromaster
1 Mob Rule
Yes on a side now back to Back to Nature. That card is such a blowout where it's good. It's like insurance against every bad deck in the format.
One a side note have any of you been losing to Collective Company Decks? I don't think I've lost a match to one yet. That card is incredibly unpredictable and generally pretty low impact. They have to already be ahead on the board for it to matter. But that means if you play anything relevant early it eclipses the card because most of the cards in their deck are so underpowered. I think it's the biggest trap card Standard has seen in a long while. There is a chance that something changes with new printings to make it better but for now it's kind of interesting to see people trying to make it work and basically doomed to fail. They made the card just underpowered enough with the current card pool.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
3x Forest
3x Frontier Bivouac
1x Island
1x Mana Confluence
2x Mountain
1x Shivan Reef
3x Temple of Abandon
1x Temple of Epiphany
1x Temple of Mystery
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Yavimaya Coast
Planeswalker (2)
2x Sarkhan Unbroken
3x Deathmist Raptor
3x Den Protector
1x Dragonlord Atarka
4x Elvish Mystic
3x Rattleclaw Mystic
4x Savage Knuckleblade
2x Shaman of the Great Hunt
3x Stormbreath Dragon
2x Surrak, the Hunt Caller
3x Thunderbreak Regent
Sorcery (2)
2x Crater's Claws
Instant (5)
2x Lightning Strike
3x Stubborn Denial
1x Ashcloud Phoenix
2x Disdainful Stroke
2x Feed the Clan
2x Hornet Nest
3x Roast
1x Surrak Dragonclaw
2x Wild Slash
2x Xenagos, the Reveler
R1 vs Abzan Megamorph: I'm assuming Megamorph, at least. There were Deathmist Raptors and Den Protectors on his end too. Game 1 I flooded pretty hard, but Games 2 and 3 were pretty par for the course. If the Abzan deck can't get a raided Wingmate Roc going, I don't find many issues with the matchup at all. There are certainly situations where you can't catch up from behind, but that's more the exception than the rule.
R2 vs Abzan Fly-Guys: The deck was playing mostly like an Abzan Aggro deck, but it also had Herald of Torment and Dragonlord Dromoka to close out the game. Which is what he did Game 1. Game 2 I was able to Roast a Hornet Nest and keep him at bay with those and some Xenagos tokens. While Game 3 ended with a huge Crater's Claws, despite a bestowed Herald of Torment on a Siege Rhino.
R3 vs Grixis Control: I'm guessing. It was big on Anger of the Gods, which kept my Deathmist shenanigans in check. Once I was past that, however, bigger creatures like Savage Knuckleblade and some dragons closed out the games. Game 2 saw me lose to my own dudes off an Ashiok. But Game 3 was an easy sweep. Anger of the Gods looks silly when you play it against Big Knucks and Thunderwings.
3 thoughts on the list:
First, no 4th Yavimaya Coast. I know it's a small thing but the odds of T2 Knuckleblade go up so much from it's inclusion. I guess the only 8 red untapped sources T2 after that is limiting factor enough. It's probably why I was doing so much pain to myself when I was playing Knuckleblade. It was still super powerful. Short of them having T2 Valorous Stance you were so ahead. That leverage elf angle is a lot less here maybe it's not that significant. I think it's generally fine but ups the probability of clunky hands.
The second is more general. I've been trying to determine why we would ever side Wild Slash over say Magma Spray. Main deck hits the player is a great argument but I mean when are you bringing shock in. The upside against Raid and Morph decks seems huge. Maybe you wouldn't bring them in there but it's considerable.
Finally is Crater's Claws still a thing? I've been wondering this for a while. I stopped playing it a month and half or so back. I did lose in the mirror to it once yesterday which is the first time I've lost in the mirror since February. Usually it feels like something easy to mitigate and if the postboard plan involves Disdainful Stroke it usually equals Time Walk. But obviously the mirror doesn't matter. It's more of what has fundamentally changed in the format that it isn't as good anymore (same reason unfortunately I hung up my pet card Shaman).. Surrak the Hunt Caller means other aggressive green decks aren't giving you the time. It's a kin to more people playing Siege Rhino. Yes Claws kills Siege Rhino but it also generally costs you 4 mana to do so. They play the 2nd one and you are probably in trouble unless you were significantly ahead. It's the fact they can race you with Surrak now. Additionally while at 2 mana it's a nice temporary foil to Deathmist the timing of Deathmist means you aren't getting in as much damage early so Claws as a finisher is a lot weaker. Arguably it's still a planeswalker killer but generally the increased efficiency of threats now doesn't give the time to waste most of a turn. People are playing big Dragons and counterspells. Claws was always weak against control but it's now a bit of a trap. Unless they tap out you are in this situation where you got go for it and spend a turn but you know you are probably going to get out done on mana efficiency, allowing them to say counter your spell and dig in the same turn. It was common in old lists to trade out Claws for better specific removal and keep it as a sort of concession game 1 but it's verging on not even relevant g1. I like it better than say Roast main deck but I'm trying to figure out if there is anywhere you even passably want it. Like would you ever side into in a matchup if it was in your sideboard as cards 16/17?
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
I only ever really side Wild Slash in against the Atarka Red or Monored Decks...maybe Heroic on the play. Those matchups are pretty abysmal. I REALLY wish we had a less narrow answer card. But that's what I've come to. Worse comes to worse, those decks stumble and you can start shooting them in the face.
I side 1 claws out against the typical Esper list...Initially I had more Roast in the main, but drawing them against Esper when it was the most represented deck in the meta was miserable. Sometimes though, you just gotta get 'em. I don't know if I'd sideboard the Claws in against anything if they were in the board. But I only ever really sideboard them out against Esper. Maybe I'd drop to 1 against MonoRed. But there it's basically a Pillar of Flame.
Sometimes you hit a board stall against another midrange deck (mostly Abzan), and you just need that last bit of reach to punch through. It's why I dropped down to 2 of them. We don't have many mana-efficient answers to big dragons (short of Reality Shift or the very narrow Plummet-type spells), and sometimes you just need to shoot something big. What's nice about Crater's Claws is its scaling effect, which is pretty typical for Temur. If you have board presence and are either even or ahead on the field, you're doing great. When you're behind it's a bit of a slog.
I've been pretty much in denial of Dromoka existing. I know I can't beat that card easily. Nor can I readily play enough cards to deal with decks that play it. So it is sort of problematic. Every time I've beat Dromoka so far has involved Mob Rule. One game I managed to fight it twice buying back Raptors but they matched me on Havens. In a sense Stormbreath can keep it at bay but it usually is accompanied by other dragons I can no longer counter. But outside of that and GR Bees I don't think there is anything even remotely for these colors. Sarkhan trumps Elspeth I find in real games.
So really I'm at that point where I'm looking for real small percentages. Getting into the realm of minimal returns. Just won another 8 man just now, beat Abzan Megamorph, Esper Control, and GR Atarka Red. This time in my flex spot I put in Crater's Claws, but I never played it. Similarly how I never played See the Unwritten when I had it in the slot. I feel pretty confident about 59 cards of my main deck. I'm playing a couple 3 copies in the deck that's I can move up to 4's to round it out but that's at the already crowded 3 drop slot. I could add another 4 or 5 but nothing is dynamic enough. Maybe the deck doesn't need much of anything but there is definitely this feeling that I have a little room and I don't really want the 4th Courser or Den Protector. Nothing from Sideboard is really good enough to bring in main. I've moved far enough from Ferocious that those cards aren't as good anymore as a maindeck plan.
I think I'm going to try Purphoros.. I know sounds weird.. but I think it might just have the right utility.
EDIT
Current list I'm testing:
4 Frontier Biovac
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Temple of Abandon
1 Temple of Epiphany
2 Forest
3 Mountain
1 Mana Confluence
4 Yavimaya Coast
2 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
Creatures(27):
4 Elvish Mystic
2 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Rattleclaw Mystic
3 Den Protector
4 Deathmist Raptor
3 Courser of Kruphix
4 Thunderbreak Regent
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
4 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Disdainful Stroke
3 Draconic Roar
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
3 Sarkhan Unbroken
2 Stubborn Denial
1 Disdainful Stroke
2 Back to Nature
2 Twin Bolt
1 Setessian Tactics
2 Roast
3 Hornet Nest
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Mob Rule
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Again, just a thought. I'm not sure your reasoning on Purphoros, so maybe I missed something.
I like see the unwritten as a 1 of just because our top decks are terrible late game. We have a lot of very low impact mana dorks that don't do anything. We don't have a gavony township to or anthem to give them importance. StU lets us bypass some of the bricks on top of our deck and get to the action. Ferocious or not I cast it because I always look at it as if I'm casting stormbreath dragon. Many times we just need to keep up the pressure.
I like the bees package vs red decks. Game 1 is not in our favor. After sideboard it is still close. A turn 2 honets nest usually shuts them down for a few turns.
I side in roast vs Seige Rhino decks. Those decks always run Courser so you have plenty of targets for it.
Crater's Claws is a valid finisher. I'm still playing 2 in mine. I like how flexible it is. Vs aggro decks its a nice shock most of the time for a tempo play. Everything else it can end the game easily.
Both of your guys comments actually cover most of what I'm looking for in Purphoros. First question to both of you are you guys playing a a few Sarkhan's? I realized I've gone from being the guy playing the aggro version of the deck to the guy playing the midrange version of the deck. However, the threat density is still very high. 8 Dragons + 3 Sarkhan is a lot of dragons. It feels sometimes like I'm playing 14 once you factor in Haven too. In fact it's so many dragons it gets to a point in many games that you play consecutive dragons T3-T6. Usually that's enough to win a game quite aggressively. However when it's not it's actually quite good to set up a defensive game. This was the biggest change I realized a while ago. Sarkhan with Deathmist to hold the ground can out grind any deck in the format not on sweepers. But sweepers generally aren't a problem for the deck anyway. I've beat show downs against Dromoka or Silumgar simply on them not being able to attack and with being able to draw cards every turn. Sure I can't beat them quick enough in these cases but going all aggro wouldn't help that. It lends to the fact that my removal of choice is permission.
The problem with Atarka is I'm never prepared to make the investment on time. You leave yourself super vulnerable when you tap out for it early. And if the opponent has opportunity for the same sort of play with say Caryatids it becomes a bit awkward. When it's not on time it can be a card you can't cast from your hand. I actually prefer playing cheaper threats and countering their big play. Then by the time I have 7 mana playing Den Protector, rebuy and counter their big play again. You basically get to time walk them while promoting your board. With this sort of line though in the games you don't straight up win in the air (like let's say they have a bunch of Hidden Dragon Slayers and Plummets) you end up locking up the board at which point you are going to draw random mana dorks. Even a See the Unwritten or Atarka aren't going to win it for you at that point. My experience with Atarka actually ended up exactly like that. If I was able to T4 it, it usually meant my hand had very little else going on. So if the opponent say killed the Rattleclaw or killed the Atarka immediately sometimes that was enough to just lose the game even if I took out their Fleecemane Lion with Atarka. If the opponent had permission well Atarka isn't doing the job. 7 was too much often against aggro (not that Purphoros is any good there). The one place he was exceptional was against the GR dragons mirror or any sort of green ramp (not Deathmist/Den Protector) deck. However my experience playing against it is the opponent goes for it, I Disdainful Stroke then I win the game. And for 2 mana that plan was actually better against both of those decks.
The typical pattern for my deck in a board lock is Xenagos make a 2/2 every turn. Sarkhan make one 4/4, then continue to draw cards every turn. On average I play 2 creatures a turn, and only end up attacking with a Dragon (if not scared of air attacks) or Deathmist Raptors which I can rebuy on which turns I effectively play up 2 creatures more a turn on average. In this state Purphoros deals anywhere from 4-8 damage a turn. About as much as swing with a couple dragons from a perfectly defensible position. Basically it's a reverse Mastery of the Unseen. At a certain point a + Xenagos makes a pretty good impression of Gavony Township. Now I know it's not a land so I don't get it for free. But other than Nylea it is the easiest God for this deck to turn on with a lot of double red mana Symbols.
I was actually looking for Equipment but there is none decent to be hand. I really didn't want to put another Enchantment in the deck but I wanted something to do a couple things:
1. Give game to late game dorks. These decks need usually need something like that and it usually has to be something that isn't easy to just kill. A shock coming down and the ability to make a Rattle Claw Mystic a 4/2 attacking can be enough.
2. Need a way to break board stalls especially against decks that can gain more life a turn than I can deal damage with Dragons. Mob Rule is decent but it is not main-deckable. Sometimes Dromoka/Arbor Colossus prompts stalls in the air. Having a way to do direct damage behind them can actually be pretty good.
3. Have something that situation pending I can play on curve. Sometimes you would just play a Sword on 3 even if you had no intention of equipping it to the Elf the next turn just to be efficient. A late game go for it trump can often leave you open if it's too expensive. At a certain point you want to leverage being able to play 2 spells in a turn (ie leaving mana up on their turn).
4. Something that arguably in a certain threat in itself. If things are going well it's a super efficient 4 drop with an indestructible 6/5 body. This is a decent wall in Deathmist mirrors.
Nylea as I said is pretty close, but it's more of a Kessig Wolf Run than a Gavony and the Trample ability while cute with Deathtouch actually does a lot less. It takes a whole lot more investment mid-late to make the big attack. A green opponent with Nylea and big creatures generally wins this stand off. But a deck without big creatures Nylea is a lot less impressive. Xenagos, puts the focus in one place. If a big flier or 2 were going to win the game you would have won the game already. Assuming you are running Sarkhan/Courser, Keranos does very little you don't already have covered. Doing 3 a turn seems decent but it's still not quite enough. I mean I was pretty high on Soul of Shandalaar in the fall since it was huge and had huge upside (it's the biggest creature in Standard if you untap with it, first strike + 3 damage to would be creature in combat basically wins it battles in anything with less than 10 toughness). It's still not a bad choice at 6 in this sort of deck, but it also can just die. Thalia might as well be Monastery Siege. The unblockable can be good but it itself being there doesn't quite do enough. I tried all the Sieges too. Outpost Siege is slow when you aren't drawing spells, it's basically more threats or more lands, it's better than Monastery Siege and on Dragons can win games in board stalls but I'm not suggesting playing multiple so it really depends on when you play it. Frontier Siege doesn't really solve any problems a fight here or there or extra mana isn't going to be leveraged in this sort of deck. You will hit more mana than good cards at a certain point.
So let's go back and look at this from a curve perspective. With 23 lands and 8 dorks, I don't think you can play more than 7 5+ drops. I didn't invent this number, this is just the classic formula for these decks. I realize there is Xenagos, and Courser but things have to flow pretty positively to go much higher than that. To me it's Sarkhan or Atarka. Or maybe both but to play Atarka I'd have to cut some number of Sarkhan. I know Tom Ross' list didn't but he played Caryatid that is arguably a better dork on this plan. My Rattleclaw Mystics do 3 things:
1. Provide mana ramp on T2.
2. Get played morph mid to late game to buy back Den Protectors.
3. Get played as a morph immediately at 3 mana and eat removal (since no one can risk a Den Protector living).
You can use this to your advantage. If you have a reasonable curve and a lot of 4/5 drops that are good run out the Rattleclaw because they will kill it. This frees up removal on your bigger threats. If you are short on untapped mana play it face up and play a tapland. The chances of them killing it are low unless they just left mana up to do precisely that. Mid to late game swap up your flipped cards. So they aren't sure which are better to kill. The difference is Caryatid will almnost never die and you can count it against a lot of decks as land. If my deck had 27 lands I'd consider a bit higher top end. But I do lose something in the bargain (Deathmist recursion). If you look at Jund Monsters curve from last year it wasn't even that ambitious unless against some postboard games against control and I think that plan was more out of necessity than goodness.
So if anything what I'm looking for costs less than 5 mana. Or atleast situationally does so. This does make stuff like Become Immense or Crater's Claws seem better. However, both of those cards suffer in that when I get into those sort of games, it's actually tokens or Deathmists that are entering my graveyard more than anything, and anything else I'd likely want to buy back. Secondly in my current list I have no creatures with cmc less than 4 with 4 power so incidental Shock on Claws is no longer a thing. Fireball you tap out has the same issues as Atarka and if not in range is even less powerful arguably. I'm looking for something that works well with what I'm already playing. Surrak, Hunt Caller is arguably the best choice it unfortunately doesn't really provide a different angle to the deck. It still dies to Hero's Downfall and do very little in a board stall. Shaman of the Great Hunt is also great until you consider how easy it is to kill and generally if you have gone slower like I have you don't get those 1-2 punches early. Shaman just trades. It's still great in board stalls and is probably why I was such an advocate for such a long time. More planeswalkers don't really do it either. Kiora and Chandra have purpose but they don't leverage what the deck is doing. I've had a game with active Chandra, Sarkhan and Courser, and yes Ancestral Recall every turn is sweet. But there are enough cases it isn't right. What is the deck doing a lot of if the plan gets halted? Generating excess mana, drawing cards, making tokens, and recurring bodies. It seems to match with Purphoros.
Now I'm not completely sold on it being good enough. All those other 4's have reasonable merit, it's just that it provides a very different angle to the deck which let's me leverage different sorts of plans if needed. However, for the meantime I'm completely sold on 8 Dragons + 3 Sarkhan so not so much in the market for more top end. The timing is too critical, and having a big spell that sometimes wins comes with the downside of having the big spell you can't cast. It's a risk that I don't think is worth playing when I already have that angle covered. Sarkhan is very good even in multiples. I mean you got to ask yourself if you are just trying to see the unwritten into a Dragon, how different is that from say Sarkhan into one or two. Sarkhan is slower, but he's also got a turn head start.
I like how you play enough blue to play AEtherspouts out of the board. This seems like a fairly reasonable place to take Company. I like no Elvish Mystic for that reason. It does mean that decks with Elvish Mystic can get the drop on you. But we don't play this for the green mirror. The trade off I see in this list is more evasion for less midgame. Like at first looking at the list Den Protector seems like a big exclusion since it can buy back some of the best things you are doing. However, looking at the board this is how you make Seismic Rupture actually reasonable in your deck. If need be it only kills Rattleclaw and Boon Satyr. And in the matchups you want rupture, Boon Satyr is probably a Lightning Strike effectively anyway. The deck is a bit lower powered than some of the company decks I've seen since Knuckleblade is the only like really powerhouse flip but you fliers can atleast buy sometime against decks that play big dragons and counterspells. Against a dedicated control deck you can always play the slow, morph Stratus Dancer game so that's find probably for all but the most proactive decks of that nature. And let's face it we all have issues with Dromoka. I think it's an interesting take. It might suffer from not being able to close against a deck that seeks to stabilize on board (versus sweep) especially if the deck plays Elvish Mystic but cheap fliers and cards like Sarkhan give some interesting angles to hold the game.
If I was the opponent I'd attack this deck by leveraging the difficulty to convert after the 3 mana point. Any deck that can wedge the window between say Face Down morph T3 and Collective Company/Sarkhan will greatly have the power advantage since so many of the cards in the deck are actually not very powerful comparatively. So keep that in mind when playing the game. Never risk playing your 4 or 5 drop into permission and hope they don't curve smoother than you proactively to which they can play better threats while keeping you back. Keeping you back can often be all they need, since at a certain point even Collected Company can't break through. This is true against any larger green deck with removal or control deck. I'm interested to say the least if the flier evasion angle can overcome this shortcoming.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Thinking about dropping Courser completely at this point. IMO the only reason this guy has been good for so long is that the 3 drop spot has been very bad since theros. Nothing has really changed. I'm not sure what I'd replace him with.
Other than that I'm happy with the deck. There isn't much innovation you can really do.
I can't agree with that. Check out my deck. In many ways similar in spirit to ryansolid's, but has a large number of different cards. (Currently no red cards, but that can change.) It has been cleaning up at my store for the past month.
I am always looking for ways to improve it, and splashing red would be easy if the value is there. I would have to say no to the double-red dragons, and I don't have much Ferocious so Crater's Claws isn't as valuable. Of the remaining cards, Sarkhan looks most interesting.
You mentioned trouble with Dromoka, and to that card my answer is Curse of the Swine, besides Arbor Colossus. The curse is also very handy against Abzan Aggro. Meanwhile against non-Dromoka dragons I prefer Polymorphist's Jest. Just saying if Aetherspouts was an option, those two cards may serve even better.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
At 3 mana three choices of cards to play
At 4 mana four choices
At 5 mana three choices
At 6 mana one choice
At 7 mana one choice
No matter if you are playing RUG, R/G, or G/U the cards all overlap on the curve between all these decks. Everything is close to the same power level right now. It isn't because of lack of choices. Rather all the choices are really the same with small edges in one direction or another.