This is my current Standard deck i've been testing at my LGS. It's been putting up a good fight against most of the tiered decks, though abzan midrange is a tough g1 more often than not. the interactions with temur ascendancy are super fun and swingy, and i consistently have lethal on the board turns 6 or 7, not by any means "fast", but certainly nothing to sniff at. Any thoughts, ideas or suggestions are greatly appreciated. Also, need to note that the mana base is based on my budget, and obviously if i had the cash it'd be a bit smoother.
Paragon of Gathering Mists and Hour of Need seem out of place here. Your creatures are too big for them to be good (not that the Paragons are remotely playable anyway). I'd cut them for more dorks.
With only 6 creatures with a power > or = 4, Temur Ascendancy seems to be a questionable inclusion. I'm guessing the Paragons are there to guarantee evasion. However, if that's the case, I think [case]Thassa, God of the Sea[/card] could be worth considering as a replacement.
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Playing with proxied cards at sanctioned events is good, actually.
Temur Ascendancy build seems to be inconsistent since in certain situation, we will face colour screw issue. Ascendancy and Savage Knuckleblade requires tri-colour. Polukranos double green. Stormbreath Dragon double red. Some tries to slot in Soul of Ravnica, double blue. We tried to slot in as much 4 power creatures to utilize Ascendancy but lacking of interaction cards like burn or removal spells. As much as we want that Fires of Yavimaya feels now, it just not suitable. At least not now. Polukranos still no Blastoderm.
Three first place Temur Midrange decks still using the monsters shell approach and seems to be working. They have few cards in commons apart from the usual creatures. All three runs Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker, Crater's Claw and Temur Charm. These cards worth paying attention. As for me, I'm still not giving up on Ascendancy build.
I find Hour of Need to be very interesting. It turns mana dorks into 4/4 flying Sphinxes. In certain match up where turn 3 Stormbreath Dragon is a killer, two 4/4 flying Sphinxes on turn 3 seems promising.
The biggest thing with Ascendancy is they payout has to be worth it. I struggled with a lot of builds like those posted here. Almost identical right down to Hour of Need. I also tried stuff like Illusory Angel with cheap tempo spells. Then I tried to go bigger Mythic style and try to land See the Unwritten into bombs. Each had it's flaws. Hour of Need requires cannibalization to actually work right which generally means you need to get to 7 mana at which point you might as well be playing Hornet Queen.. trying to aim any bigger without additional mana isn't consistent. Illusory Angel was close but there are no good 1 mana spells in these colors. Ones that are actually cross the board impactful. At 2 it becomes an effective 5 drop. With Ascendancy sure it's better than Stormbreath but you really want that 5th toughness in a lot of places and the curve becomes awkward. See the Unwritten was close too. If you ever stabilized. Ever got a big creature to stick and you knew they couldn't immediately kill it you win on the spot. However, it was all the others. To make that work I needed to run a lot more mana and I was just a worse Mono Green Devotion deck.
The biggest difference between Ascendancy and Fires is that Fires ensured your creatures were the biggest (you could always threaten the pump) where as Ascendancy is a much better card advantage engine. Especially in multiples. The fact that multiples aren't always the worst makes this Fervor variant the best one they have printed since Fires. You also don't particularly want to spend mana into your threats as you develop your board. Something like Knuckleblade is great when you are ahead since you only have to threaten the mana but Ascendancy pushes you to being behind and then catching up. It makes low rate creatures bad for the deck. Knuckleblade can be awkward. Stormbreath isn't big enough. You do want late game mana sinks but you want their use to be optional. You want them to be already big for their size. Polukranos might not be Blastoderm but it's certainly better than Jade Leech. Because of the lack of Rishadan Port, and 2nd set of one mana dorks and the fact that Elfs only make green this deck will never play like Fires. It should play more like Mythic. Zvi's original not Conscription. We don't have the man lands but our mana sinks are similarly expensive. And the first place to go has to be the mana. Again Green Devotion has the best base.
Keep in mind especially in the latter one he is talking about the extreme side. You can sort of meet in the middle with midrange as long as your deck still does something.
All this being said this is where I currently am. Take the sideboard with a grain of salt it's largely untested. But the main deck does exactly what an Ascendancy deck needs to do. Right now I'm only playing 3 Ascendancies but it is so good in the deck 4 might be correct.
After playing a bunch of Rabblemasters and Knuckleblades it became apparent they were in the wrong deck. As a 4 drop Knuckleblade is below rate on it's toughness in a format of Goblin Token + Lightning Strike and Stoke the Flames. It's a great 3 drop but consider how that plays out in your ideal curves. I often found I was playing this almost a Combo off with Ascendancy in play once I could cast multiple 4 power creatures a turn. If you play Ascendancy you need to be able to still block against aggressive decks and in so the size and timing are off. I tried stuff like Ember Swallower that were generally better but just weren't good. For all every deck is trying to invalidate it Courser of Kruphix is still very good at what it does. Similarly the best thing you can be doing T1 or T2 is mana. Removal doesn't work game 1 since the opponent might just play tap lands. Like against Jeskai they can do nothing til T3 and still be ahead on Tempo. Admittedly Rattleclaw gets nuked too easily in some matchups but hopefully it leaves room for bigger threats. Don't be afraid to sideboard dorks out in non-green matchups and lower your curve. You can still play that Monsters game. Genesis Hydra I used to hate but I think it's important now since unlike See the Unwritten you can throw it out there before you stabilize. It isn't always the best but generally you get very good value off it. Even hitting Ascendancy is worth it sometimes on timing. Xenagos is weak in burn matchups but I find in this deck you just sit there and plus til ultimate a lot of the time. The 2/2's are barely worth it. But getting big mana is huge for this deck. Xenagos seems like a trap but it's also our best tool. I wouldn't play it in a more aggressive version but it's perfect here.
So why play this over other Green Devotion. It doesn't lose to Control. I know that isn't a thing yet... but it has a very good control matchup even game 1. It aims to beat the opponent quickly. That means stuff like Soul of Shandalar end up being much more proactive than Hornet Queen. It doesn't stabilize as well until you untap but it also is just the biggest threat on board. Head to Head Soul beats Hornet Queen. This gives you a huge advantage against other green decks. Admittedly I imagine that Stormbreath Dragon decks might be better at that Tempo game naturally their inability to go as big usually puts them in a spot where they can't really afford attacking anyway. Any deck that wishes to Doom Blade you out is usually at a disadvantage since Ascendancy probably draws you cards at the same rate as Domri without being able to be Downfalled. Hornet Queen is obviously better against these Removal decks minus Doomwake Giant but Ascendancy lets you care less about resiliency and more about pure power.
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There aren't many places to discuss Temur, I feel... I'm glad to be part of the Temur wagon, and I'm not getting off it until rotation. I've already decided to play this archetype through!
I'm convinced in the power level of Temur Ascendancy, but as I've said before, I personally believe it's a 'build around it' card as opposed to a 'secondary strategy' that the deck would have. We can play the G/R splash blue game, we can play the RUG Tempo game, we can play the Superfriends game, we can play the Ascendancy game... we have plenty of options in color. I'm playing Ascendancy Monsters right now, but I'd like to experiment with a list using Ensoul Artifact and Shrapnel Blast... But I digress!
I ended up taking Xenagod out in favor of Surrak, and exchanging Sagu and Terra in the main/side. My reasoning is that, with Genesis Hydra, we can easily enable Nylea's creature form, and she in turn helps our 5/5 or 6/6 Hydra push through the damage. But, as she herself doesn't have trample, we have Surrak to help her out. They are a beautiful combo, and if you happen to have both on the table with an Ascendancy and then cast a Hydra, it's just... it's just beautiful Christmas land.
I'd like to try to help and contribute to developing the archetype to being competitive. I do believe it has potential-- it's just a matter of finding which Temur style has the most potential. I do feel that it's really gratifying to play a deck that slams creature after creature after creature while getting advantage at the same time.
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Yesterday was all I had. Today is all I have. Tomorrow is all I want.
Ascendancy is definitely a build around card. 100% it just doesn't mean your deck should be bad without it. The key is recognizing what Ascendancy gives you to leverage it. The number one thing is the ability to rapidly end games from stability point. The second is the ability to trade early investment for the ability to outlast one for one removal on card advantage. The cost is you generally will be behind in early development. Mana dorks and Ascendancy let you swing back but the cards you play have to be that much more effective. The struggle is while you are playing to a certain synergy you need each card to count. Playing powerful threats together at a certain density is synergy in itself purely through redundancy. In so it makes sense Xenagod can't be your one threat. Nylea can't be either really but it takes less to turn it on, sometimes just an Ascendancy and a Dork or 2. I consider this an extension of Zvi's 2nd Law. Nylea even not a creature can make your dorks threats.
Here's the thing. I don't think Genesis Hydra is worth it at all without Nykthos or Xenagos. It is a pretty bad rate. I know people are like it a lot but casting it for x=4 is only when it starts to be any good. And realistically it isn't actually really good til x=6. Without the big mana dumps you basically can consider it a marginal 6 drop. It has value but who cares. This deck even the more aggro versions with Ascendancy doesn't want a Thragtusk. You play Genesis Hydra because it's a Rampaging Baloth.
Another thing I've noticed. A small common deckbuilding consideration with these lists I've been finding. There aren't enough real 3 drops. If you play Mystic you want some. Savage Knuckleblade and Ascendancy aren't real 3 drops. They are too hard to cast. You can some amount of the time but it's the exception not the rule. I'm not saying the deck needs to have all real 3's, but I think you need atleast 4 of them. When you start pretending that Ascendancy's and Knuckleblades have the Serra Avenger clause and are effective 4 drops on crucial turns look how that affects your curve and ability to play spells. It puts a lot more strain on the effectiveness of your removal spells.
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I somehow lovin' ryansolid's list. It looks odd but it could work. It synergies with each other well, provides early defense and have enough threats. A full playset of Genesis Hydra can be bad as we would want it as X > 4 at least. Perhaps the slot would be better off for different cards that works well on its own. Maybe splashing black for Underworld Cerberus or colorless cards like Soul of New Phyrexia or Scuttling Doom Engine. This way all the 5-6cmc in the deck are 6/6 creatures and harder to deal with.
The list isn't that crazy if you look at it being like 28 of the 36 non-land cards of GR Devotion. It plays out very simiarly except you can kill faster. I didn't like Nissa or any of the Morph cards working their way in. Instead it was very easy to fit what I consider the Ascendany package. The base of my list was Jim Davis proposed Temur Devotion deck on his last SCG article. It isn't too hard to follow his basic logic. I just applied Zvi's school of magic to it considered my curve a bit more for Genesis Hydra (which led to Soul over Hornet Queen, although I think Queen could be good in here somewhere). Since I've been jamming nothing bug Ascendancy lists as my primary test deck for the past 3 weeks it was easy enough to apply what I learned and was quite happy with the results. The deck seemed to work right away which I can't say for some of my other attempts. I was constantly tweaking them to try to get the balance, but ultimately I realized it was because of the inconsistency of certain draws due to difficult mana costs and curve.
Testing on MTGO so far has just been mostly Jeskai and other Green decks but I've been doing well. I mean I played a more aggressive Ascendancy deck that I conceded to on T3 Game 2 after they went Elf, Ascendancy, Polukranos on the play. But lets face it, that never happens. I won that round anyway. It was sort of close but having better threats just pushed it out. I Hydra'd for 5 two turns in a row, finding Polukranos, then Arbor Colossus to block his flyer. Of courser if I could just find Ascendancy I would have won that game anyway. The deck seems to mulligan ok. There is enough redundancy in mana and threat density that it seems ok. It's not like Monsters in that sense, but my opinion of that could be affected by memory Lifebane Zombie. As long as you always mulligan all mana hands you are ok
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How does Soul of Shandalar perform in your list ? I'm using quite similar to your list but just minor tweak for own preferences. My mana base would be like GU splash R because I find splashing red a lot easier than blue because of Wooded Foothills.
Having this kind of mana base is much more stable. I'm using Soul of Ravnica instead of Soul of Shandalar because of flying factor. The ability is a bonus, paying 5UU with Temur Ascendancy or Surrak Dragonclaw for 3 cards not so bad especially late game with both in top deck mode. I'm still stuck with Hour of Need because I feel it is so good, most people does not expect what's coming. The only problem is getting it post sweeper.
How does Soul of Shandalar perform in your list ? I'm using quite similar to your list but just minor tweak for own preferences. My mana base would be like GU splash R because I find splashing red a lot easier than blue because of Wooded Foothills.
Having this kind of mana base is much more stable. I'm using Soul of Ravnica instead of Soul of Shandalar because of flying factor. The ability is a bonus, paying 5UU with Temur Ascendancy or Surrak Dragonclaw for 3 cards not so bad especially late game with both in top deck mode. I'm still stuck with Hour of Need because I feel it is so good, most people does not expect what's coming. The only problem is getting it post sweeper.
2 hour of need seems correct. Seems good with ascendancy
Problem I have worth ascendency is that is does nothing on its own. I guess I just have test it? Can any one confirm that it is the best route with temur?
I was originally playing Soul Ravnica a couple days into testing til about 2 weeks ago. Soul of Ravnica is fine it just is less good at switching gears. The problem is that there is still a lot of air in these decks from mana. Drawing cards is nice but it delays stuff. More often than not I'd just want to play other threats. Whereas Soul of Shandalar interacts quite nicely. It's the biggest card on the field by far. I had an Opponent attack and Monstrous Polukranos into it.. yeah... When you have the mana up it's effectively a 9/6 first strike. With first strike you don't have to worry about death touch and it will shoot the death touchers. It is pretty much unbeatable in the green mirror. I've only lived the dream once so far and used Nythos + Xenagos to activate it 3 times in turn.. doing 9 to their face and mostly clearing their board. The problem with Soul of Ravnica is it still dies to the old block and bolt.
Why do I keep on talking about blocking? Because of Ascendancy against aggressive decks if you lose a turn early to play it you aren't going to be ahead. You need to stabilize first. These decks almost always have that issue. First strike takes me back to Baneslayer Angel where the opponent can't ever really attack into it favorably. They can't even 2 for 1 themselves to make time for the rest of the team unless that 2 for 1 is double Lightning Strike. The timing makes it so much better for Ascendancy decks. People seem to be suspect but I tried all the other 6's and to me it isn't close really. The only place Soul is bad is against heavy 1 for 1 removal deck. There I'd rather have something else but out of the Souls it fits nicely. I've seen talk of Doom Engine and Soul of Phyrexia but they don't really help you stabilize if you are behind, and with Soul of Phyrexia you are tempted to always leave up mana to activate. I suppose it's a good ploy but it stops you from playing stuff and depending on the game state allows you to get flanked. I like Soul of Phyrexia or Sagu Mauler as options in the board or if a Deck like Jund or UW was the most popular respectively but in a creature battle Shandalar wins hands down.
Actually other than the mana your list looks a lot like the sort of lists I was posting on the old thread between Sept 13-20. I did move off Hour of Need pretty quickly admittedly. It was just really painfully bad. It's fine in a world where you can cash it in for max value (sorta same argument for Genesis Hydra I guess) but it is terrible Tempo play in the way say Nulltread Gargantuan was. Trust me I tried to play that card so much. A 5/6 on T2.. Ok.. the worst part about that might be redrawing the dork so not exactly comparable. The thing is if you are playing against anyone doing anything real and you are hold Hour instead of a threat. First problem is if you go for the double dork opening and they kill atleast one of your dorks. Against Jeskai or Mardu it's just happening. It's also how GR decks side for the mirror. The next is all things being equal, if you go for that and your opponent say goes for Arbor Colossus the same turn.. you now have canabalized your mana where they will just kill you in 2 swings. I know I'm giving specific examples but generally this is what happens in games. For every time you get that blowout there are others where it's awkward. At 7 mana it matches poorly against Hornet Queen. If you are on quick dorks you probably aren't on Ascendancy. If you are then the opponent on the same time possibly time land 2 considerable threats themselves in that time. It might be a close race. Let's look at the times when it's just awesome. Those are a lot like the times where you get to fireball the opponent with Crater's Claws.. I found when playing both (which I obviously did in the beginning, they are both versatile looking gotcha's) that 5 of those effects were too many, when I was looking at a board where neither was particularly good. Crater's Claws is great but it also fringes on awkward if you can never find the opening. I had an opponent yesterday who was like I was going to finish you with Claws if you didn't find Arbor Colossus off Hydra to block his Pheonix. I stopped and thought about it for a while, and the truth was I had so many outs and if with his Ascendancy in play he had another creature in play he wouldn't have lost right there. I could have activated Polukranos removing his ferocious, I could have found Ascendancy with Hydra etc. This is one scenario and in testing I have won with Claws a lot. I was actually going on about how great it was last week. Especially how it can be Lightning Strike too, but it's not as great against any deck that keeps you on the backfoot with early pressure and removal. Sound familiar. I think the inclusion of Claws does what you are looking for more effectively than Hour of Need and there is only so many slots for those gotcha effects.
As for the mana it looks reasonable. Biovac is great for fixing. Part of me really thinks that if I have to play a bunch of tapped lands I'd want more value out of it. Your mana is pretty painful though. I was running 3 Confluence originally in hopes of T2 Ascendancy as much as possible and was just getting trashed by Jeskai. Mind you I didn't have Courser in at the time, but I still think it's hard. I need the 1 Confluence so I have the requisite untapped green sources T1, but every game I draw it I cringe. They are so much worse in multiples. Arguably as bad as Nykthos. I actually found with the mana that Painlands generally were the least painful of the bunch. Confluence was the worst, followed by fetches and then Painlands. As long as you have enough mana sources in each color you don't have to activate the painlands for color. However fetches always cost you the life. Your number of taplands looks good though. I think 4 is about perfect. I play 6 but that is the very top end. 5 is decent, but 6 is just stretching it. Anymore is wrong.
@redirus91: I have no clue. The thing is I haven't seen a Temur deck that is actually good yet. I think they are all awkward so Ascendancy seems to be the best way to naturally play to that. I'm not sure it's the only way but the obvious Monsters path leaves a lot wanting. I've made those lists. I like Ascendancy better. The Monsters lists might be equally good, but they don't have the room for upside. It makes them really middling in this format.
EDIT:
Testing this now. Multiples of Genesis Hydra was a big awkward since it only is really good at high mana. I found most of the time I was looking for Arbor Colossus so I added the 3rd one. In the board hadn't hit Keranos, but I think Hornet Queen is generally good in the same sort of places. The exception is sweepers. It is possible that a Keranos is better than say one of the Stubborn Denials or the 4th Disciple but I'm not sure.
2 hour of need seems correct. Seems good with ascendancy
Problem I have worth ascendency is that is does nothing on its own. I guess I just have test it? Can any one confirm that it is the best route with temur?
So far I feel 3 Hour of Need seems correct. I would want it somewhere turn 3 to turn 5 at its best. It has win me a few games, a surprise blocker and good even without Ascendancy. It is not a card in most nett decks so most people might not see it coming.
I'm not so sure about Temur Ascendancy is the best route for Temur or not, but going bigger than 5 power with Ascendancy is definitely the best. Just skip Savage Knuckleblade, have more mana dorks and go bigger than Polukranos. Because of having more mana dorks, that is where Hour of Need tend to be useful. Of course Ascendancy does nothing on its own, but if opponent let it stays, they will need to answer to every threat laid on board at instant speed, and there's not much instant speed removal now as compared to previous season.
I played Temur for a short time before switching to Abzan Midrange. One card that was an all-star for me was Aqueous Form sure its an aura and you risk the 2 for 1, but it breaks board stalls and gives you a scry on top of that. Another card to consider is Xenagos, God of Revels. Use him to target a creature that Aqueous Form is already on and you have a huge unblockable threat. What's better than a 6/6 Trample Hexproof Sagu Mauler ? A 12/12 Trample Hexproof Unblockable Scry 1 when it attacks Mauler! Icy Blast and Nissa, Worldwaker could also be considered.
Temur Ascendancy provides haste early game while Xenagos, God of Revels can provides late game haste and power boost. The only problem Xenagod faced most of the time is that lacking of trample creatures on its own. Most boosted creatures get chump blocked either from Elspeth's soldier tokens or Hornet Queen's tokens. Not every often a creature gets to deal full damage. Of course it works well with Sagu Mauler but that's just about it. Keranos, God of Storms seems better as it provide either card draw or Lightning Bolt.
I don't think Garruk's Packleader better than Ascendancy. Of course it provides the same draw effect, but it does not give haste to provide pressure and at 5cmc it arrives on board late.
I think the problem is Temur is wedged in this hard place between like a GR Aggro Midrange and Green Devotion. GR is ok, but not great and Green Devotion in this current format has been really good. The problem is Green Devotion generally has the edge against the smaller Monster decks. Temur Midrange is trying to occupy the same space. I came to this conclusion and decided to basically play Green Devotion but I really have to question if what I'm doing is better than Green Devotion. It fits my play style more because it's slightly more aggressive. To me I always sort of do a thermometer of the format and look for that sweet spot. Sometimes it's more aggro side, others it's bigger.. To me the best place for Aggressive Midrange is actually very close to the top end which starts to invalidate it. I mean I've been able to win every match against Green Devotion decks thus far with my list, but is it better than them in general when you are getting that close? Not really sure.
A couple things I do know though. The problem is on T3 with the deck. This deck has the most inconsistent T3 ever. Monsters was pretty inconsistent too on T3 but I think the mana makes this even harder. That's why I don't think stuff like Xenagod matter too much. Not only are you cutting into your 5 drops, but you are addressing the earlier curve issue. If you need to figure out a way to swing back it probably has to be a freebie in the early turns rather than a later investment when it's too late and you've already had the awkward turns. In a GR deck with good aggressive 3 drops I'd take 2 Xenagod autopilot but Temur.. I don't know.
You can't compare Garruk's Packleader to Ascendancy for the same reason. Again it's a 5 drop. Why don't you play Prophet of Kruphix if you want to play a 5 mana do nothing? The timing is so off. Temur Charm.. .. .. I guess it's really hard this early in the format because anything that sometimes hits explosively will win a lot of games especially when unexpected. Like if you have Sagu Mauler, Aqueous Form, Xenagod, some lands and dorks, what have you been doing all game. I mean that could just line up nicely or given the amount of air necessary to have enough mana in the deck you could just be holding 2 Aqueous Forms and a Xenagod after they kill your Polukranos and you never see your Mauler. All in sort of augments are worth it if your threats are cheap, and the casting of it can create a tempo window. If you just take a great threat then augment the benefit over just playing another great threat drastically goes down.
Sarkhan is a very good card. I really liked it early in my testing and would play some number in any non-Ascendancy list. Nissa on the otherhand is in a hard place right now. She's fine a deck that produces a lot of mana, but it essentially a 6 drop unless you are ahead. Even in green devotion she can be borderline. In a different format/time I would be all over her, I just don't think it's her time quite yet (of course that could change by the end of the weekend).
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How do we deal with the mirror match against green devotion decks? Hornet Queens seems really hard to beat. I can see Soul of Shandalar beating it, but it seems like a very slow way of beating Hornet Queen.
I think the problem is Temur is wedged in this hard place between like a GR Aggro Midrange and Green Devotion. GR is ok, but not great and Green Devotion in this current format has been really good. The problem is Green Devotion generally has the edge against the smaller Monster decks. Temur Midrange is trying to occupy the same space. I came to this conclusion and decided to basically play Green Devotion but I really have to question if what I'm doing is better than Green Devotion. It fits my play style more because it's slightly more aggressive. To me I always sort of do a thermometer of the format and look for that sweet spot. Sometimes it's more aggro side, others it's bigger.. To me the best place for Aggressive Midrange is actually very close to the top end which starts to invalidate it. I mean I've been able to win every match against Green Devotion decks thus far with my list, but is it better than them in general when you are getting that close? Not really sure.
A couple things I do know though. The problem is on T3 with the deck. This deck has the most inconsistent T3 ever. Monsters was pretty inconsistent too on T3 but I think the mana makes this even harder. That's why I don't think stuff like Xenagod matter too much. Not only are you cutting into your 5 drops, but you are addressing the earlier curve issue. If you need to figure out a way to swing back it probably has to be a freebie in the early turns rather than a later investment when it's too late and you've already had the awkward turns. In a GR deck with good aggressive 3 drops I'd take 2 Xenagod autopilot but Temur.. I don't know.
You can't compare Garruk's Packleader to Ascendancy for the same reason. Again it's a 5 drop. Why don't you play Prophet of Kruphix if you want to play a 5 mana do nothing? The timing is so off. Temur Charm.. .. .. I guess it's really hard this early in the format because anything that sometimes hits explosively will win a lot of games especially when unexpected. Like if you have Sagu Mauler, Aqueous Form, Xenagod, some lands and dorks, what have you been doing all game. I mean that could just line up nicely or given the amount of air necessary to have enough mana in the deck you could just be holding 2 Aqueous Forms and a Xenagod after they kill your Polukranos and you never see your Mauler. All in sort of augments are worth it if your threats are cheap, and the casting of it can create a tempo window. If you just take a great threat then augment the benefit over just playing another great threat drastically goes down.
Sarkhan is a very good card. I really liked it early in my testing and would play some number in any non-Ascendancy list. Nissa on the otherhand is in a hard place right now. She's fine a deck that produces a lot of mana, but it essentially a 6 drop unless you are ahead. Even in green devotion she can be borderline. In a different format/time I would be all over her, I just don't think it's her time quite yet (of course that could change by the end of the weekend).
People trying Temur monsters or mid-range lists are as you said just generally playing a poorer version of what G/x devotion accomplishes. You're not taking advantage of what blue offers in most of the lists I've seen. I've been extremely happy with my Temur list and it's tested extremely well. Sometimes you take the aggressive route, and sometimes you sit back, resolve Surrak with Denial back-up, and untap and pretty much be in a very good spot. It also helps that you have access to the best board wipe in the format that doesn't kill any of your creatures. As for T3 plays..I generally agree. The deck is more of a T2 and T4/T5/T6 power house. I usually use T3 to setup my mana and hold up counter-spell / removal. That's been working fine for me. I don't like playing Knuckleblade on T3 generally, unless it's against G/x devotion and I'm on the play. Since I only run 2 Angers MB, it's probably my best T3 play.
How do we deal with the mirror match against green devotion decks? Hornet Queens seems really hard to beat. I can see Soul of Shandalar beating it, but it seems like a very slow way of beating Hornet Queen.
Disdainful Stroke is probably the best blue card in the format. Why on Earth no one is playing this card is just baffling imho.
If you have the time to leverage counterspells and in so the reach to finish the opponent with burn disdainful stroke looks really good. Jim Davis has it in the list(sideboard) I used as a base for my list. The only reason I switched to Stubborn Denial was fo max my mana. I mean I'm not worried about devotion because I'm basically devotion with bigger threats. But if you can't bruteforce them like that you have to create a tempo window. Disdainful Stroke seems alright. Bounce could be alright. My personal favorite is Hunt the Hunter. You have to be so far ahead Hornet Queen doesn't matter. If you are looking for threats against green I strongly recommend Soul of Shandalar.
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How do we deal with the mirror match against green devotion decks? Hornet Queens seems really hard to beat. I can see Soul of Shandalar beating it, but it seems like a very slow way of beating Hornet Queen.
Temur charm allows you to attack past it, aetherspout might get it out of the way for a turn, Polymorphist's Jest after blocks
I think the problem is Temur is wedged in this hard place between like a GR Aggro Midrange and Green Devotion. GR is ok, but not great and Green Devotion in this current format has been really good. The problem is Green Devotion generally has the edge against the smaller Monster decks. Temur Midrange is trying to occupy the same space. I came to this conclusion and decided to basically play Green Devotion but I really have to question if what I'm doing is better than Green Devotion. It fits my play style more because it's slightly more aggressive. To me I always sort of do a thermometer of the format and look for that sweet spot. Sometimes it's more aggro side, others it's bigger.. To me the best place for Aggressive Midrange is actually very close to the top end which starts to invalidate it. I mean I've been able to win every match against Green Devotion decks thus far with my list, but is it better than them in general when you are getting that close? Not really sure.
A couple things I do know though. The problem is on T3 with the deck. This deck has the most inconsistent T3 ever. Monsters was pretty inconsistent too on T3 but I think the mana makes this even harder. That's why I don't think stuff like Xenagod matter too much. Not only are you cutting into your 5 drops, but you are addressing the earlier curve issue. If you need to figure out a way to swing back it probably has to be a freebie in the early turns rather than a later investment when it's too late and you've already had the awkward turns. In a GR deck with good aggressive 3 drops I'd take 2 Xenagod autopilot but Temur.. I don't know.
You can't compare Garruk's Packleader to Ascendancy for the same reason. Again it's a 5 drop. Why don't you play Prophet of Kruphix if you want to play a 5 mana do nothing? The timing is so off. Temur Charm.. .. .. I guess it's really hard this early in the format because anything that sometimes hits explosively will win a lot of games especially when unexpected. Like if you have Sagu Mauler, Aqueous Form, Xenagod, some lands and dorks, what have you been doing all game. I mean that could just line up nicely or given the amount of air necessary to have enough mana in the deck you could just be holding 2 Aqueous Forms and a Xenagod after they kill your Polukranos and you never see your Mauler. All in sort of augments are worth it if your threats are cheap, and the casting of it can create a tempo window. If you just take a great threat then augment the benefit over just playing another great threat drastically goes down.
Sarkhan is a very good card. I really liked it early in my testing and would play some number in any non-Ascendancy list. Nissa on the otherhand is in a hard place right now. She's fine a deck that produces a lot of mana, but it essentially a 6 drop unless you are ahead. Even in green devotion she can be borderline. In a different format/time I would be all over her, I just don't think it's her time quite yet (of course that could change by the end of the weekend).
People trying Temur monsters or mid-range lists are as you said just generally playing a poorer version of what G/x devotion accomplishes. You're not taking advantage of what blue offers in most of the lists I've seen. I've been extremely happy with my Temur list and it's tested extremely well. Sometimes you take the aggressive route, and sometimes you sit back, resolve Surrak with Denial back-up, and untap and pretty much be in a very good spot. It also helps that you have access to the best board wipe in the format that doesn't kill any of your creatures. As for T3 plays..I generally agree. The deck is more of a T2 and T4/T5/T6 power house. I usually use T3 to setup my mana and hold up counter-spell / removal. That's been working fine for me. I don't like playing Knuckleblade on T3 generally, unless it's against G/x devotion and I'm on the play. Since I only run 2 Angers MB, it's probably my best T3 play.
That's why I like prophet, it can get your threats out earlier and always makes them think twice. Aetherspout would be a surprise card then they will always respect it.
That's why I like prophet, it can get your threats out earlier and always makes them think twice. Aetherspout would be a surprise card then they will always respect it.
Except that Prophet dies to the most prevalent removal and deck in the format, costs 5 mana, and does relatively little on her own (bad blocker / attacker). You have to build decks in context of what is going on around you. Every card is chosen for a reason. I mean, we're in blue, we're going to have cards in our library - why aren't any other lists running Dig Through Time? It's like all these other Temur decks are trying to play the Green Devotion game without the big pay-off. To me, it makes little sense. As for Aetherspouts...it's a respectable card, but it means not playing Surrak Dragonclaw (they're a bit of a non-bo together because it's not often folks are going to blindly attack into 5 open mana), and he is a house - dodging most of the relevant removal in the format, and allowing you to play a better game against counterspell decks and believe me any deck playing blue (esp. Jeskai) are siding into 3-4 Disdainful Strokes, and he simply invalidates that strategy (he gives your other creatures uncounterability as well). Attack the meta - don't just try and play cards in a vacuum.
That's why I like prophet, it can get your threats out earlier and always makes them think twice. Aetherspout would be a surprise card then they will always respect it.
Except that Prophet dies to the most prevalent removal and deck in the format, costs 5 mana, and does relatively little on her own (bad blocker / attacker). You have to build decks in context of what is going on around you. Every card is chosen for a reason. I mean, we're in blue, we're going to have cards in our library - why aren't any other lists running Dig Through Time? It's like all these other Temur decks are trying to play the Green Devotion game without the big pay-off. To me, it makes little sense. As for Aetherspouts...it's a respectable card, but it means not playing Surrak Dragonclaw (they're a bit of a non-bo together because it's not often folks are going to blindly attack into 5 open mana), and he is a house - dodging most of the relevant removal in the format, and allowing you to play a better game against counterspell decks and believe me any deck playing blue (esp. Jeskai) are siding into 3-4 Disdainful Strokes, and he simply invalidates that strategy (he gives your other creatures uncounterability as well). Attack the meta - don't just try and play cards in a vacuum.
The only removal prophet dies to that others creatures don't is lightning strike. Now if you are a deck that plays that card are you using it against my mana creatures? Have you used it to kill a courser or other creature after blocks? Did it just go straight to my dome because it fit your mana curve? Prophet can't be targeted with abzan charm, does that off set since the charm would be more likely to be available at that time prophet comes down?
Surrak is not a "nonbo" with aetherspouts. At 5 mana you play either one depending on the situation, that's a good situation to be in.
This is my current Standard deck i've been testing at my LGS. It's been putting up a good fight against most of the tiered decks, though abzan midrange is a tough g1 more often than not. the interactions with temur ascendancy are super fun and swingy, and i consistently have lethal on the board turns 6 or 7, not by any means "fast", but certainly nothing to sniff at. Any thoughts, ideas or suggestions are greatly appreciated. Also, need to note that the mana base is based on my budget, and obviously if i had the cash it'd be a bit smoother.
3x Clever Impersonator
4x Kiora's Follower
4x Master of Waves
3x Paragon of Gathering Mists
2x Prophet of Kruphix
4x Rattleclaw Mystic
2x Sagu Mauler
4x Savage Knuckleblade
Non-Creature Spells
3x Hour of Need
4x Temur Ascendancy
2x Temur Charm
5x Island
3x Forest
4x Frontier Bivouac
1x Mountain
4x Shivan Reef
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Yavimaya Coast
4x AEtherspouts
1x Clever Impersonator
4x Disdainful Stroke
1x Sagu Mauler
3x Stubborn Denial
2x Temur Charm
Link to deck @ TappedOut.net
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Blue lives don't matter in the slightest.
Temur Ascendancy build seems to be inconsistent since in certain situation, we will face colour screw issue. Ascendancy and Savage Knuckleblade requires tri-colour. Polukranos double green. Stormbreath Dragon double red. Some tries to slot in Soul of Ravnica, double blue. We tried to slot in as much 4 power creatures to utilize Ascendancy but lacking of interaction cards like burn or removal spells. As much as we want that Fires of Yavimaya feels now, it just not suitable. At least not now. Polukranos still no Blastoderm.
Three first place Temur Midrange decks still using the monsters shell approach and seems to be working. They have few cards in commons apart from the usual creatures. All three runs Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker, Crater's Claw and Temur Charm. These cards worth paying attention. As for me, I'm still not giving up on Ascendancy build.
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Polukranos, World Eater
2 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Savage Knuckleblade
4 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Temur Ascendancy
3 Hour of Need
2 Temur Charm
2 Crater's Claw
Lands (24)
4 Forest
4 Frontier Bivouac
4 Mana Confluence
2 Mountain
2 Shivan Reef
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Yavimaya Coast
I find Hour of Need to be very interesting. It turns mana dorks into 4/4 flying Sphinxes. In certain match up where turn 3 Stormbreath Dragon is a killer, two 4/4 flying Sphinxes on turn 3 seems promising.
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
The biggest difference between Ascendancy and Fires is that Fires ensured your creatures were the biggest (you could always threaten the pump) where as Ascendancy is a much better card advantage engine. Especially in multiples. The fact that multiples aren't always the worst makes this Fervor variant the best one they have printed since Fires. You also don't particularly want to spend mana into your threats as you develop your board. Something like Knuckleblade is great when you are ahead since you only have to threaten the mana but Ascendancy pushes you to being behind and then catching up. It makes low rate creatures bad for the deck. Knuckleblade can be awkward. Stormbreath isn't big enough. You do want late game mana sinks but you want their use to be optional. You want them to be already big for their size. Polukranos might not be Blastoderm but it's certainly better than Jade Leech. Because of the lack of Rishadan Port, and 2nd set of one mana dorks and the fact that Elfs only make green this deck will never play like Fires. It should play more like Mythic. Zvi's original not Conscription. We don't have the man lands but our mana sinks are similarly expensive. And the first place to go has to be the mana. Again Green Devotion has the best base.
If you want some relevant reading I strongly suggest both of these articles by Zvi:
Mythic Origins
Hypermana Deck Building
Keep in mind especially in the latter one he is talking about the extreme side. You can sort of meet in the middle with midrange as long as your deck still does something.
All this being said this is where I currently am. Take the sideboard with a grain of salt it's largely untested. But the main deck does exactly what an Ascendancy deck needs to do. Right now I'm only playing 3 Ascendancies but it is so good in the deck 4 might be correct.
4 Yavimaya Coast
2 Shivan Reef
2 Temple of Abandon
2 Temple of Mystery
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Frontier Biovac
1 Mana Confluence
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
Creatures(30):
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
2 Arbor Colossus
2 Surrak, Dragonclaw
2 Soul of Shandalar
4 Genesis Hydra
3 Temur Ascendancy
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Hunt the Hunter
2 Magma Jet
1 Arc Trail
2 Reclamation Sage
4 Nylea's Disciple
1 Keranos, God of Storms
After playing a bunch of Rabblemasters and Knuckleblades it became apparent they were in the wrong deck. As a 4 drop Knuckleblade is below rate on it's toughness in a format of Goblin Token + Lightning Strike and Stoke the Flames. It's a great 3 drop but consider how that plays out in your ideal curves. I often found I was playing this almost a Combo off with Ascendancy in play once I could cast multiple 4 power creatures a turn. If you play Ascendancy you need to be able to still block against aggressive decks and in so the size and timing are off. I tried stuff like Ember Swallower that were generally better but just weren't good. For all every deck is trying to invalidate it Courser of Kruphix is still very good at what it does. Similarly the best thing you can be doing T1 or T2 is mana. Removal doesn't work game 1 since the opponent might just play tap lands. Like against Jeskai they can do nothing til T3 and still be ahead on Tempo. Admittedly Rattleclaw gets nuked too easily in some matchups but hopefully it leaves room for bigger threats. Don't be afraid to sideboard dorks out in non-green matchups and lower your curve. You can still play that Monsters game. Genesis Hydra I used to hate but I think it's important now since unlike See the Unwritten you can throw it out there before you stabilize. It isn't always the best but generally you get very good value off it. Even hitting Ascendancy is worth it sometimes on timing. Xenagos is weak in burn matchups but I find in this deck you just sit there and plus til ultimate a lot of the time. The 2/2's are barely worth it. But getting big mana is huge for this deck. Xenagos seems like a trap but it's also our best tool. I wouldn't play it in a more aggressive version but it's perfect here.
So why play this over other Green Devotion. It doesn't lose to Control. I know that isn't a thing yet... but it has a very good control matchup even game 1. It aims to beat the opponent quickly. That means stuff like Soul of Shandalar end up being much more proactive than Hornet Queen. It doesn't stabilize as well until you untap but it also is just the biggest threat on board. Head to Head Soul beats Hornet Queen. This gives you a huge advantage against other green decks. Admittedly I imagine that Stormbreath Dragon decks might be better at that Tempo game naturally their inability to go as big usually puts them in a spot where they can't really afford attacking anyway. Any deck that wishes to Doom Blade you out is usually at a disadvantage since Ascendancy probably draws you cards at the same rate as Domri without being able to be Downfalled. Hornet Queen is obviously better against these Removal decks minus Doomwake Giant but Ascendancy lets you care less about resiliency and more about pure power.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
I'm convinced in the power level of Temur Ascendancy, but as I've said before, I personally believe it's a 'build around it' card as opposed to a 'secondary strategy' that the deck would have. We can play the G/R splash blue game, we can play the RUG Tempo game, we can play the Superfriends game, we can play the Ascendancy game... we have plenty of options in color. I'm playing Ascendancy Monsters right now, but I'd like to experiment with a list using Ensoul Artifact and Shrapnel Blast... But I digress!
My list for reference:
4x Sylvan Caryatid
4x Savage Knuckleblade
3x Polukranos, World Eater
1x Nylea, God of the Hunt
1x Clever Impersonator
3x Stormbreath Dragon
1x Keranos, God of Storms
1x Surrak Dragonclaw
1x Sagu Mauler
3x Genesis Hydra
4x Temur Ascendancy
4x Lightning Strike
2x Temur Charm
4x Forest
3x Mountain
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Yavimaya Coast
2x Mana Confluence
2x Temple of Abandon
1x Temple of Epiphany
1x Temple of Mystery
3x Shivan Reef
2x Stubborn Denial
1x Xenagos, God of Revels
2x Anger of the Gods
2x Destructive Revelry
3x Setessan Tactics
2x Disdainful Stroke
1x Polis Crusher
1x Unravel the AEther
1x Terra Stomper
I ended up taking Xenagod out in favor of Surrak, and exchanging Sagu and Terra in the main/side. My reasoning is that, with Genesis Hydra, we can easily enable Nylea's creature form, and she in turn helps our 5/5 or 6/6 Hydra push through the damage. But, as she herself doesn't have trample, we have Surrak to help her out. They are a beautiful combo, and if you happen to have both on the table with an Ascendancy and then cast a Hydra, it's just... it's just beautiful Christmas land.
I'd like to try to help and contribute to developing the archetype to being competitive. I do believe it has potential-- it's just a matter of finding which Temur style has the most potential. I do feel that it's really gratifying to play a deck that slams creature after creature after creature while getting advantage at the same time.
Standard: N G A W Y R A
Commander: G U B Damia
Here's the thing. I don't think Genesis Hydra is worth it at all without Nykthos or Xenagos. It is a pretty bad rate. I know people are like it a lot but casting it for x=4 is only when it starts to be any good. And realistically it isn't actually really good til x=6. Without the big mana dumps you basically can consider it a marginal 6 drop. It has value but who cares. This deck even the more aggro versions with Ascendancy doesn't want a Thragtusk. You play Genesis Hydra because it's a Rampaging Baloth.
Another thing I've noticed. A small common deckbuilding consideration with these lists I've been finding. There aren't enough real 3 drops. If you play Mystic you want some. Savage Knuckleblade and Ascendancy aren't real 3 drops. They are too hard to cast. You can some amount of the time but it's the exception not the rule. I'm not saying the deck needs to have all real 3's, but I think you need atleast 4 of them. When you start pretending that Ascendancy's and Knuckleblades have the Serra Avenger clause and are effective 4 drops on crucial turns look how that affects your curve and ability to play spells. It puts a lot more strain on the effectiveness of your removal spells.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
Testing on MTGO so far has just been mostly Jeskai and other Green decks but I've been doing well. I mean I played a more aggressive Ascendancy deck that I conceded to on T3 Game 2 after they went Elf, Ascendancy, Polukranos on the play. But lets face it, that never happens. I won that round anyway. It was sort of close but having better threats just pushed it out. I Hydra'd for 5 two turns in a row, finding Polukranos, then Arbor Colossus to block his flyer. Of courser if I could just find Ascendancy I would have won that game anyway. The deck seems to mulligan ok. There is enough redundancy in mana and threat density that it seems ok. It's not like Monsters in that sense, but my opinion of that could be affected by memory Lifebane Zombie. As long as you always mulligan all mana hands you are ok
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
3 Arbor Colossus
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Elvish Mystic
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
4 Polukranos, World Eater
3 Rattleclaw Mystic
2 Sagu Mauler
2 Surrak Dragonclaw
3 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Soul of Ravnica
2 Crater's Claws
3 Hour of Need
4 Temur Ascendancy
Lands (23)
4 Forest
4 Frontier Bivouac
4 Mana Confluence
1 Mountain
2 Shivan Reef
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Yavimaya Coast
Having this kind of mana base is much more stable. I'm using Soul of Ravnica instead of Soul of Shandalar because of flying factor. The ability is a bonus, paying 5UU with Temur Ascendancy or Surrak Dragonclaw for 3 cards not so bad especially late game with both in top deck mode. I'm still stuck with Hour of Need because I feel it is so good, most people does not expect what's coming. The only problem is getting it post sweeper.
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
2 hour of need seems correct. Seems good with ascendancy
Problem I have worth ascendency is that is does nothing on its own. I guess I just have test it? Can any one confirm that it is the best route with temur?
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
I was originally playing Soul Ravnica a couple days into testing til about 2 weeks ago. Soul of Ravnica is fine it just is less good at switching gears. The problem is that there is still a lot of air in these decks from mana. Drawing cards is nice but it delays stuff. More often than not I'd just want to play other threats. Whereas Soul of Shandalar interacts quite nicely. It's the biggest card on the field by far. I had an Opponent attack and Monstrous Polukranos into it.. yeah... When you have the mana up it's effectively a 9/6 first strike. With first strike you don't have to worry about death touch and it will shoot the death touchers. It is pretty much unbeatable in the green mirror. I've only lived the dream once so far and used Nythos + Xenagos to activate it 3 times in turn.. doing 9 to their face and mostly clearing their board. The problem with Soul of Ravnica is it still dies to the old block and bolt.
Why do I keep on talking about blocking? Because of Ascendancy against aggressive decks if you lose a turn early to play it you aren't going to be ahead. You need to stabilize first. These decks almost always have that issue. First strike takes me back to Baneslayer Angel where the opponent can't ever really attack into it favorably. They can't even 2 for 1 themselves to make time for the rest of the team unless that 2 for 1 is double Lightning Strike. The timing makes it so much better for Ascendancy decks. People seem to be suspect but I tried all the other 6's and to me it isn't close really. The only place Soul is bad is against heavy 1 for 1 removal deck. There I'd rather have something else but out of the Souls it fits nicely. I've seen talk of Doom Engine and Soul of Phyrexia but they don't really help you stabilize if you are behind, and with Soul of Phyrexia you are tempted to always leave up mana to activate. I suppose it's a good ploy but it stops you from playing stuff and depending on the game state allows you to get flanked. I like Soul of Phyrexia or Sagu Mauler as options in the board or if a Deck like Jund or UW was the most popular respectively but in a creature battle Shandalar wins hands down.
Actually other than the mana your list looks a lot like the sort of lists I was posting on the old thread between Sept 13-20. I did move off Hour of Need pretty quickly admittedly. It was just really painfully bad. It's fine in a world where you can cash it in for max value (sorta same argument for Genesis Hydra I guess) but it is terrible Tempo play in the way say Nulltread Gargantuan was. Trust me I tried to play that card so much. A 5/6 on T2.. Ok.. the worst part about that might be redrawing the dork so not exactly comparable. The thing is if you are playing against anyone doing anything real and you are hold Hour instead of a threat. First problem is if you go for the double dork opening and they kill atleast one of your dorks. Against Jeskai or Mardu it's just happening. It's also how GR decks side for the mirror. The next is all things being equal, if you go for that and your opponent say goes for Arbor Colossus the same turn.. you now have canabalized your mana where they will just kill you in 2 swings. I know I'm giving specific examples but generally this is what happens in games. For every time you get that blowout there are others where it's awkward. At 7 mana it matches poorly against Hornet Queen. If you are on quick dorks you probably aren't on Ascendancy. If you are then the opponent on the same time possibly time land 2 considerable threats themselves in that time. It might be a close race. Let's look at the times when it's just awesome. Those are a lot like the times where you get to fireball the opponent with Crater's Claws.. I found when playing both (which I obviously did in the beginning, they are both versatile looking gotcha's) that 5 of those effects were too many, when I was looking at a board where neither was particularly good. Crater's Claws is great but it also fringes on awkward if you can never find the opening. I had an opponent yesterday who was like I was going to finish you with Claws if you didn't find Arbor Colossus off Hydra to block his Pheonix. I stopped and thought about it for a while, and the truth was I had so many outs and if with his Ascendancy in play he had another creature in play he wouldn't have lost right there. I could have activated Polukranos removing his ferocious, I could have found Ascendancy with Hydra etc. This is one scenario and in testing I have won with Claws a lot. I was actually going on about how great it was last week. Especially how it can be Lightning Strike too, but it's not as great against any deck that keeps you on the backfoot with early pressure and removal. Sound familiar. I think the inclusion of Claws does what you are looking for more effectively than Hour of Need and there is only so many slots for those gotcha effects.
As for the mana it looks reasonable. Biovac is great for fixing. Part of me really thinks that if I have to play a bunch of tapped lands I'd want more value out of it. Your mana is pretty painful though. I was running 3 Confluence originally in hopes of T2 Ascendancy as much as possible and was just getting trashed by Jeskai. Mind you I didn't have Courser in at the time, but I still think it's hard. I need the 1 Confluence so I have the requisite untapped green sources T1, but every game I draw it I cringe. They are so much worse in multiples. Arguably as bad as Nykthos. I actually found with the mana that Painlands generally were the least painful of the bunch. Confluence was the worst, followed by fetches and then Painlands. As long as you have enough mana sources in each color you don't have to activate the painlands for color. However fetches always cost you the life. Your number of taplands looks good though. I think 4 is about perfect. I play 6 but that is the very top end. 5 is decent, but 6 is just stretching it. Anymore is wrong.
@redirus91: I have no clue. The thing is I haven't seen a Temur deck that is actually good yet. I think they are all awkward so Ascendancy seems to be the best way to naturally play to that. I'm not sure it's the only way but the obvious Monsters path leaves a lot wanting. I've made those lists. I like Ascendancy better. The Monsters lists might be equally good, but they don't have the room for upside. It makes them really middling in this format.
EDIT:
Testing this now. Multiples of Genesis Hydra was a big awkward since it only is really good at high mana. I found most of the time I was looking for Arbor Colossus so I added the 3rd one. In the board hadn't hit Keranos, but I think Hornet Queen is generally good in the same sort of places. The exception is sweepers. It is possible that a Keranos is better than say one of the Stubborn Denials or the 4th Disciple but I'm not sure.
4 Yavimaya Coast
2 Shivan Reef
2 Temple of Abandon
2 Temple of Mystery
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Frontier Biovac
1 Mana Confluence
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
Creatures(30):
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
3 Arbor Colossus
2 Surrak, Dragonclaw
2 Soul of Shandalar
3 Genesis Hydra
3 Temur Ascendancy
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Hunt the Hunter
2 Magma Jet
1 Arc Trail
2 Reclamation Sage
4 Nylea's Disciple
1 Hornet Queen
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
So far I feel 3 Hour of Need seems correct. I would want it somewhere turn 3 to turn 5 at its best. It has win me a few games, a surprise blocker and good even without Ascendancy. It is not a card in most nett decks so most people might not see it coming.
I'm not so sure about Temur Ascendancy is the best route for Temur or not, but going bigger than 5 power with Ascendancy is definitely the best. Just skip Savage Knuckleblade, have more mana dorks and go bigger than Polukranos. Because of having more mana dorks, that is where Hour of Need tend to be useful. Of course Ascendancy does nothing on its own, but if opponent let it stays, they will need to answer to every threat laid on board at instant speed, and there's not much instant speed removal now as compared to previous season.
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
RBWort, Boggart AuntieBR
G Seshiro, the Anointed Decklist found here: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10261813#post10261813
I don't think Garruk's Packleader better than Ascendancy. Of course it provides the same draw effect, but it does not give haste to provide pressure and at 5cmc it arrives on board late.
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
A couple things I do know though. The problem is on T3 with the deck. This deck has the most inconsistent T3 ever. Monsters was pretty inconsistent too on T3 but I think the mana makes this even harder. That's why I don't think stuff like Xenagod matter too much. Not only are you cutting into your 5 drops, but you are addressing the earlier curve issue. If you need to figure out a way to swing back it probably has to be a freebie in the early turns rather than a later investment when it's too late and you've already had the awkward turns. In a GR deck with good aggressive 3 drops I'd take 2 Xenagod autopilot but Temur.. I don't know.
You can't compare Garruk's Packleader to Ascendancy for the same reason. Again it's a 5 drop. Why don't you play Prophet of Kruphix if you want to play a 5 mana do nothing? The timing is so off. Temur Charm.. .. .. I guess it's really hard this early in the format because anything that sometimes hits explosively will win a lot of games especially when unexpected. Like if you have Sagu Mauler, Aqueous Form, Xenagod, some lands and dorks, what have you been doing all game. I mean that could just line up nicely or given the amount of air necessary to have enough mana in the deck you could just be holding 2 Aqueous Forms and a Xenagod after they kill your Polukranos and you never see your Mauler. All in sort of augments are worth it if your threats are cheap, and the casting of it can create a tempo window. If you just take a great threat then augment the benefit over just playing another great threat drastically goes down.
Sarkhan is a very good card. I really liked it early in my testing and would play some number in any non-Ascendancy list. Nissa on the otherhand is in a hard place right now. She's fine a deck that produces a lot of mana, but it essentially a 6 drop unless you are ahead. Even in green devotion she can be borderline. In a different format/time I would be all over her, I just don't think it's her time quite yet (of course that could change by the end of the weekend).
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
People trying Temur monsters or mid-range lists are as you said just generally playing a poorer version of what G/x devotion accomplishes. You're not taking advantage of what blue offers in most of the lists I've seen. I've been extremely happy with my Temur list and it's tested extremely well. Sometimes you take the aggressive route, and sometimes you sit back, resolve Surrak with Denial back-up, and untap and pretty much be in a very good spot. It also helps that you have access to the best board wipe in the format that doesn't kill any of your creatures. As for T3 plays..I generally agree. The deck is more of a T2 and T4/T5/T6 power house. I usually use T3 to setup my mana and hold up counter-spell / removal. That's been working fine for me. I don't like playing Knuckleblade on T3 generally, unless it's against G/x devotion and I'm on the play. Since I only run 2 Angers MB, it's probably my best T3 play.
Here's my list I've been tweaking.
4 Frontier Bivouac
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Evolving Wilds
4 Temple of Epiphany
4 Shivan Reef
3 Mountain
2 Forest
2 Island
//Spells
4 Stubborn Denial
3 Disdainful Stroke
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Stoke the Flames
2 Anger of the Gods
3 Tormenting Voice
3 Dig Through Time
4 Savage Knuckleblade
3 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Surrak Dragonclaw
4 Magma Spray
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Stoke the Flames
2 Jace's Ingenuity
1 Disdainful Stroke
2 Negate
1 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Surrak Dragonclaw
1 Soul of Shandalar
Disdainful Stroke is probably the best blue card in the format. Why on Earth no one is playing this card is just baffling imho.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
That's why I like prophet, it can get your threats out earlier and always makes them think twice. Aetherspout would be a surprise card then they will always respect it.
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
Except that Prophet dies to the most prevalent removal and deck in the format, costs 5 mana, and does relatively little on her own (bad blocker / attacker). You have to build decks in context of what is going on around you. Every card is chosen for a reason. I mean, we're in blue, we're going to have cards in our library - why aren't any other lists running Dig Through Time? It's like all these other Temur decks are trying to play the Green Devotion game without the big pay-off. To me, it makes little sense. As for Aetherspouts...it's a respectable card, but it means not playing Surrak Dragonclaw (they're a bit of a non-bo together because it's not often folks are going to blindly attack into 5 open mana), and he is a house - dodging most of the relevant removal in the format, and allowing you to play a better game against counterspell decks and believe me any deck playing blue (esp. Jeskai) are siding into 3-4 Disdainful Strokes, and he simply invalidates that strategy (he gives your other creatures uncounterability as well). Attack the meta - don't just try and play cards in a vacuum.
Surrak is not a "nonbo" with aetherspouts. At 5 mana you play either one depending on the situation, that's a good situation to be in.
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91