The biggest issue with Temur right now I think, is that there really is no incentive to play blue. I'd rather just run RG and have a more consistent mana base and much stronger options. Besides Savage Knuckleblade why should I mess around with blue?
The biggest issue with Temur right now I think, is that there really is no incentive to play blue. I'd rather just run RG and have a more consistent mana base and much stronger options. Besides Savage Knuckleblade why should I mess around with blue?
Stubborn Denial, Sarkhan Unbroken, Dig Through Time, the GU Walker, Krenos, God of Storms, Temur Ascendency, Temur Charm, Disdainful Stroke, Negate...
But I don't need those to win. If I'm going aggro I'd rather go RG. If I'm ramp, I'd rather go RG. What I'm trying to get at is the strength of adding blue is the tempo aspect and I think that's what a RUG deck should focus on.
But I don't need those to win. If I'm going aggro I'd rather go RG. If I'm ramp, I'd rather go RG. What I'm trying to get at is the strength of adding blue is the tempo aspect and I think that's what a RUG deck should focus on.
im liking a more control/midrange approach playing Sarkhan unbroken, dragons (for Silumgar's Scorn) and Knuckleblade with mana up.
While that is fine, I don't want to Collected Company into Elvish Mystic + fizzle.
+1
Seriously, I actually wasted the time to test company a bunch after that deck tech too. I already suspected it would be bad, but I had some decent players who are friends on the forum suggest that it wasn't. The problem is it is most of the time worse than a value 4, like Huntmaster of the Fells, Bloodbraid Elf, or Siege Rhino. Even at the Frank Karsten 22 Creatures you will miss often enough with a card that you can't afford to have miss. I have never been too high on Genesis Hydra but if you cast it for x=5 atleast the 5/5 is guarenteed. That is pretty hugely under rate, but you can also hit anything reasonable at that cost. Company's constraint at 3 mana is hard to have an actually decent deck with the right density. And even so I don't think a deck with ramp at all is the right place. Elves take those slots and they can't. If you chop off your top end you can still get beat even when resolved by the fact at a certain point where virtual card advantage over takes actual card advantage. I tried to figure out ways to further leverage the mechanic (Temur Ascendancy) which actually almost worked because it allowed atleast a quick turn around point and way to keep way ahead on the mana and redundancy for company but ultimately the sheer low power level enforced by the curve made the deck significantly worse than my stock list. Don't get me wrong I play some 4 and 5 drops alleviate the underpower issue. The deck just had too many opportunities to undermine itself.
The way to leverage this card I now believe is if you have a deck that can win off the power of it's 1 and 2 drops alone and plays like it's trump card as a 3 drop creature. Like a mono white aggro deck or merfolk deck with lords. Those kind of decks would only every play a couple 4 drops anyway. I'm not sure if there is a synergistic aggro deck like that in standard right now. Blue devotion isn't right since Master of Waves basically already does this for the deck and it probably isn't good enough. I don't know Abzan Warriors?? You play it as a way to build a board fast or against control use it like sweeper insurance. This allows decks like this to get to a certain point and hold with like Valorous Stance up and then do the EoT Boon Satyr play without playing Boon Satyr they wouldn't care to play anyway.
Which is sort of why I think BBD's deck is a mess. I think it's the worst Temur deck I've seen in a while. It's like he doesn't get what makes these deck work and is trying to jam some bad cards. Deathmist Raptor is a pretty sad place to be.
Guys guys, this is a TEMUR thread. If we were going to be realistic and practical, we'd go play Abzan, am I right?
I'm not sure. Temur is a interesting mix of players and styles. I think most of players here are Naya players and Jund Aggro/Monsters players. Then there are probably of the GU heavy Bant players and the RUG Good stuff players filling it out. Both of the first 2, sort of styles needed a real reason in the past not to just play Midrange Jund which is what I think would be the same reason they aren't playing Abzan right now. I think most would opt GR Aggro or pseudo devotion, seconded with Abzan Aggro. The latter 2 style of player would probably rather play other big blue decks or a weird(probably Simic) devotion variant.
This largely why I think there is a hard time even finding a consensus here even on like 2 versions of the deck. Or rather why there isn't a deck these days. It's been a while since anyone professional has championed the deck most moving to GR Aggro. Recently people have been trying to pick it up with their test ideas but they aren't our usuals and it is obvious in the card choices.
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Current Decks: GWUKnightfall Modern UWTempo Legacy UGRBurning Wish Cobra Vintage
--- Mana/Ramping ---
First of all, ever since I rebuilt the mana base right after FRF came out, I've been very pleased with it. I rarely take large chunks of damage from it and the colors have been consistent, even with Boon Satyr and Flamewake Phoenix fighting at the 3 drop slot. I think much of this is due to the lack of Elvish Mystic, which I think is an absolute trap card for Temur right now. It pushes you to make your mana awkward (ex: fetching Forest on T1 to play a plain green source). Also, I just don't think a good aggro deck should be playing mana dorks; it severely lowers threat density and makes us more vulnerable to hand disruption and well timed removal spells. Sure, ramping a turn early is nice, but I prefer curving out consistently instead of having those awkward turn 3+ mana dork draws.
--- Strategy/Card choices ---
I took a long look at what made Abzan Aggro decks so good. They don't need mana dorks, they just curve out with efficient creatures and some spot removal thrown in for good measure. Ironically, I used that philosophy to get this deck to where it felt good in most matchups, with Abzan Aggro being the main exception. However, I feel like times may have changed. Encase in Ice in an extremely important card for us, and another reason to be splashing blue right now. It will trump the G/R aggro mirror and it also helps the worst matchup (Abzan Aggro) a LOT. It will also help us get around annoyances such as Hornet Nest and the occasional Arbor Colossus. I am very excited about this card and look forward to trying it out. I also think an advantage will be that, after game 1, our opponents won't be siding in enchantment removal since the deck only runs Boon Satyr pre-board. Of course, we have upgrades like Roast which will help against devotion decks, Siege Rhino decks and the occasional Brimaz that might show up. Xenagos, the Reveler is a card that seems to overperform for me in basically all scenarios. He plays good offense when we're ahead, stalls the board when we're behind, and just does a fantastic job of tilting the axis of the game. I've had several opponents mutter "Didn't see that comin in game 1..." when I drop him and he eventually turns the tide of the game. I prefer Magma Spray over Wild Slash due to the exile clause; it will help against the Phoenixes if they pop up anywhere. And I only board them in against low slung aggro decks where I don't plan to use it to go to the dome, so no need for Slash. Sarkhan Unbroken will be coming in against aggro decks in place of Stormbreath Dragon and I will be trying it out in grindy matchups as well (who am I kidding...I'm playing him cause he's a TEMUR PLANESWALKER! Gotta have a Timmy card in the list somewhere ). Most of the rest of the cards are pretty self explanatory, but feel free to ask questions or provide opinions.
--- Side Notes ---
I've been intrigued by the card Profaner of the Dead. He could absolutely hose token and mono red decks, wipe out mana dorks against devotion decks and give us a way to alpha strike against Hornet Queen (sack Flamewake Phoenix, revive it, swing...sounds fun. Xenagos tokens work nicely too). Could be some hilarious "secret tech" to pull out on somebody. Thoughts?
I kinda have to agree with what some have been saying about how most of these lists would just be better running RG for a better mana base. I think if we want want to build Temur's we need to really think about what we are gaining from each color. It seems like most lists are RGu, with not much blue. The way I see it, blue offers us Savage Knuckleblade this guy is insane, would be one of the most played cards in standard if he fit into other decks. Stubborn Denial/Disdainful Stroke blue offers a number of counterspells, but these seem to be the most popular suggestions for this deck. Sarkhan Unbroken This guy is quite strong, draw a card +1 is very solid,and the ability to drop a 4/4 flier immediately to give value even if he gets killed after the first turn is great. He does give us a way to compete with abzan late game if we can protect him (or overload their Downfalls), but does need help to stabilize. Sideboard options: blue offers a few sideboard cards that can let us move into the more controlling role g2 if we want them, such as Aetherspouts, Keranos, God of Storms, Encase in Ice. While these could be used mainboard, they are likely a bit too narrow, we should remember these when balancing our matchups, but they shouldn't heavily impact the main goal of the deck.
When forming the basis of our deck, we need to make sure we are making good use of these, otherwise we are better just sticking with a RG deck.
I posted this in the other thread before it got locked.
I believe Temur's best bet in this standard is to play a Tempo based deck. That means playing a few resilient threats and having answers to theirs. It won't be full control having only one or two finishers like PLA or Ugin, but steadily throwing out things that are very hard to kill or create 2-for-1 scenarios in your favor, thus a loss of card advantage or tempo for the enemy.
Flamewake Phoenix
Ashcloud Phoenix
Sarkhan Unbroken
Genesis Hydra
Dragonlord Atarka
Profaner of the Dead
All of these are good examples of cards that do something else while also creating a creature. Savage Knuckleblade is the reason to play RUG over a more condensed RG or UG list. It's a resilient threat that can also trade well with almost every threat in Standard as long as you keep mana open.
Heir of the Wilds has also been popular due to having pseudo-unblockable, meaning no player wants to have their Siege Rhino trade for a 2/2. He's also versatile in that you can keep him back if you're on the defense.
This is why Deathmist Raptor will prove to be fairly staple in Standard, it has those same advantages but also comes back to the field anytime you flip a card, that's very strong resilience that you can build around with other cards you want to be playing anyways, such as the Phoenixes or even your Mystics.
All that said, I don't think we need to push for trying to kill or destroy every threat our opponent plays, just delay them long enough for our creatures to do the work. Denying card draw, bouncing to the hand, tapping down defenders are all just as good in my opinion as kills as long as we can get our threats to connect.
The best tools in green are the mana dorks which allow you to go up and over your opponent. We always want to play ahead of the curve.
This is a list I'd like to tune down more, there's probably some good and bad cards here depending on the matchups, but seems like a good start to me. If anyone has a different idea of where Temur needs to go I'd enjoy hearing it as well as improvements and changes to the 75.
So I made a few minor tweaks to the list in my previous post and made the top 8 of my local Super IQ as the #1 seed. Went 5-1 in swiss, my only loss to a double mulligan to 5, then got mana flooded in both quarterfinals games along with a bad misplay in game 2 which sealed my fate. My first thoughts are that this deck feels GREAT against Abzan now. Roast and Thunderbreak Regent were stellar against both the midrange and aggro variants and Encase in Ice was key against the aggro deck. I beat Abzan Aggro convincingly 2-0 (my deck's previous worst matchup), Abzan Midrange 2-1 (narrowly lost game 2) and beat 3 of the 4 Esper/UB Control decks with relative ease (the one loss was the double mull to 5). My 2nd thought is that...strangely enough, Crater's Claws feels bad. I think I used it only once to deal the one final point of damage to an Esper control player (and it got countered), but every other time I was wishing it was one of my powerful creatures (though which one specifically I have not yet determined).
The sideboard slightly changed with -1 Magma Spray, -1 Roast, +2 Disdainful Stroke. I wanted more ways to interact with larger spells and it paid off. Sniped a couple of Siege Rhinos, a Liliana Vess, and a Dig Through Time; it was backbreaking. The mainboard changes were -3 Lightning Strike, +1 Roast, +2 Wild Slash. The idea is that Wild Slash is more efficient against most of the same threats Lighting Strike would deal with, and I don't mind having a 2nd Roast because it helps game 1 against the midrange decks (it does hurt against control, but that matchup is already well in my favor so I don't mind the trade off). All of these were great calls that paid off in several games.
One play in particular that stood out to me was right after my Abzan Midrange opponent played a Siege Rhino which was sitting across from my Boon Satyr and Frost Walker. This would have been almost game over pre-DTK, but this time I played Xenagos, the Reveler, used +1 for two red mana, Roasted it, swung for 8. That type of swing is just brutal and makes me like this deck even more.
All of these are good examples of cards that do something else while also creating a creature. Savage Knuckleblade is the reason to play RUG over a more condensed RG or UG list. It's a resilient threat that can also trade well with almost every threat in Standard as long as you keep mana open.
Heir of the Wilds has also been popular due to having pseudo-unblockable, meaning no player wants to have their Siege Rhino trade for a 2/2. He's also versatile in that you can keep him back if you're on the defense.
This is a list I'd like to tune down more, there's probably some good and bad cards here depending on the matchups, but seems like a good start to me. If anyone has a different idea of where Temur needs to go I'd enjoy hearing it as well as improvements and changes to the 75.
I agree with you about these cards and thought I'd post my list for comparison.
I run more Dragons and Draconic Roar and Atarka's Command main, along side 26 lands and 0 mana dorks. I hate ripping mana dorks. 26 lands means a T2 Atarka's command for 3 dmg + a scry into T3 Regent/Xenagos/Hasted Knucks happens satisfactorily often. Anger also becomes better from the SB with no mana dorks.
Heir of the wilds, big knucks, Surrak and Xenagos hold down the ground, while fliers and burn take care of business. The abundant direct damage from Command, Roar and Thunderbreak can end games surprisingly quickly.
The Planeswalkers give some card advantage, and I toyed with Kiora, but replaced her with Crater's Claws, which seems more suited to Atarka's game plan of smash face. Speaking of, if either Atarka hits the board, faces are truly smashed.
My list may be a bit creature light, but it seems to have game and it's always fun to play DRAGONS RARRRR
I remain unimpressed with Goblin Rabblemaster, so think I would replace that with maybe Courser of Kruphix which would give the deck a more mid-rangey feel.
Edit: Oh, and I think it is time for some dragon/flier hate given the number of Stormbreath and Thunderbreak flying around.
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"Because we cannot prevent draws in paper Magic we allow IDs. If we could prevent draws we would not have IDs in paper Magic. " Scott Larabee.
Well look, most Walkers give about 1/2 a card on activation (the exception being elspeth who is pretty much an entire card). Sarkhan Unbroken gives a cards worth of value on each activation, and can protect itself. Even if the new Sarks bites it to a downfall right after coming down, you're still up a card. Maybe the best way to go would be to combine Sarkahn Unbroken with Temur ascendancy in a deck designed to trigger the draw on the Ascendancy? Try to dominate the game through raw card advantage.
Rabblemaster is locking any ascendecy out of seeing play. You absolutely cannot afford to take turn 3 off doing nothing. Even if you get to draw a lot of cards you can still die with those cards in hand.
The mana base is too painful. Just play G/R or U/R dragons. Its a better deck at this point. Until we get a smoother mana base for these colors this deck is stonewalled.
its a call for this weekend, hasnt been tested yet. essentially i was running a list like this last week with rabbles, and didnt like them, so i cut them for the fourth elvish mystic, 2 arbor colossus, and a roast main. this makes the deck slightly weaker to control but more favorable against the GR/x mirror with all the dragons (versions of CVM's list.) essentially we set up to beat the mirror main, and our sideboard is very strong against aggressive/reactive decks.
arbor colossus is somewhere id like to be right now given the prevalence of
1) mantis rider
2) thundebreak/stormbreath
3) roast
This deck does some stuff right and some areas need some improvements but there are somethings clear to me that can be drawn from this list and CVM's winning list.
1. Why play Temur over GR? The threats you play at 2 and 3 mana all atleast trade with most cards decks play up to 6 mana. This format save a few key cards has a 4 toughness ceiling. While it is awkward to have your 3 drops die to 1 mana shocks some times it's more awkward to be ahead with mana get the T3 Thunderbreak Regent and your opponent is already beating you down with 2 creatures that would trade the next turn or take 8. This is why you play Temur. If it weren't for Knuckleblade and Frost Walker I think I would have gone somewhere else a long time ago. In fact, after briefly playing Temur with Khans of Tarkir I switched to other green decks until Fate Reforged because until Frost Walker I felt this deck didn't do anything better than Abzan Aggro or straight GR since Knuckleblade couldn't carry all the weight and Rattleclaw Mystic was no where near good enough to shore up aggression for the output of the ramp. I obviously had a soft spot for cards like Claws and Stubborn Denial but going to Jund, or Naya (save the terrible mana) or Abzan or Sultai gave you real removal and different ways to attack the same problems. I will admit Temur's permission gives you a versatile angle to lock into a game and I love having that at my disposal. However, sometimes you don't need an answer for everything and it's still too easy to be overpowered if you aren't the one presenting the threats.
I'm going to say something controversial here. But as I see it as it stands if Frost Walker isn't good enough Temur isn't good enough. I'm not saying Frost Walker is a 4 of. I actually quite like 3. And often board down to 1 or 0. It's that you need no less than 7 2 drops that can actually push the board. If you don't have this number you need to be ramping into 4 mana plays that really matter. In which case you can probably skip on the Knuckleblade (and blue in general) and just take a page out of CVM's book. To date I'm yet to see a blue card in these sets over 3 cmc worth playing at rate. Don't get me wrong Knuckleblade is a decent 4 drop and decent 7 drop. But there are other cards more impressive the turn you play them at 4 if you weren't actively building your board before. Knuckleblade is aggressive and not to resilient until you untap. It's stock is way better when you are ahead or parity. If you are behind there are much better 4's.
2. 4 Thunderbreak Regent's is the new Standard. I know Adrew didn't play all 4 and split with a Ashcloud, but looking at how CVM played all 4 and had 2 additional Ashclouds pretty much says everything. First off, Ashcloud isn't dead. Secondly we want atleast 8 4 power fliers in our deck. Ashcloud is a decent hedge against other decks that play 4 toughness fliers so I see some argument there, but I think it's pretty clear from all the testing that people have been doing this card fundamentally changes awkward matchups like Jeskai. You don't need to lean so heavy on removal since you can win in the skies. This is also the reason we've seen a return of Arbor Colossus. I was actually on that plan in the fall, and it was decent but only if I was the guarenteed bigger deck. The natural way to approach that is psuedo GR devotion which instead of playing Haven throw some Nykthos in CVM's list and a couple Genesis Hydra. I'm not saying that is generally better though. With 8 dragons, we can still play a couple Draconic Roar and probably can afford up to 1 Haven. That's where I'm at. Since Thunderbreak relieves a lot of the tension on Lightning Strike I think having only a couple Draconic Roar's is more than reasonable. This is why I like the 4 Thunderbreak plan in general.
3. Disdainful Stroke is very important. Unfortunately CVM's list is another list that goes a little bit bigger (although smaller than Devotion) which means it's right above us on the food chain. Yes you could build an equal sized Temur deck but at that point you are just playing the blue for Disdainful Stroke I guess. You might as well leverage your early bodies if you want to leave up any permission. If you look at Adrew's list he has Surrak. I don't know if Surrak is good enough but it's important to be able to turn the corner with that sort of deck. See if you can play out a decent early game and then keep them off their 4 drop with Stroke you want to be able to untap and capitalize. Surrak is ok, but still has only 4 toughness for the conditionalness. I still like Shaman better, but there is a place in general for this sort of turn around card as atleast 2 or 3 of. What is more tricky is to find more cards that let you do something like Stroke but work against resolved creatures. Roast, Encase, etc.. all have their shortcomings. We probably need 2 in our 75 but I haven't really nailed down that slot and preferably at 2 mana and instant. Like if you pull off that timing. Elf, 2 or 3 drop, 2 drop leave up Stroke, Game Changer 4/5 drop you probably win that game.
4. I really don't like Goblin Rabblemaster right now. Did you see the Seismic Rupture's in Chris' Board. Now Red has a drown in sorrow that is quite playable. Anger is too much of a liability for most red decks, but a 3 mana Pyroclasm works decently with Caryatid. Everyone is ready for that card. It sometimes gives you free wins which is why I was playing 2, but the problem now is if you are relying on your 2 drop aggression Rabblemaster isn't a safe 3. See I don't mind having stuff like Boon Satyr or having the 2 drops die. Often a Shaman can push them out of range, and they don't draw the same sort of heat Rabblemaster does or the same timing envelope. Satyr pushes them to spend mana on their turn or let's you untap with Stubborn Denial. This creates openings. Frost Walker or Heir only cost 2 and have such high damage output you don't even need to overextend. The problem is a Rabblemaster in hand is only getting worse and worse in a deck that can't play enough removal to push it through. I'm even thinking playing the 2 Courser again. Now I know there was a lot of discussion about Courser and an aggro deck. I've always claimed it was fine just not always the best. I've played plenty of aggro GR decks with Borderland Ranger. It's still passable as long as that isn't your primary 3 drop plan. We have Knuckleblade and Boon Satyr if needed that can fill that role.
5. For some reason there are a decent number of Hornet Nests showing up right now in sideboards. Not really sure why given all the fliers. It might be useful for that spell option from point 3 to deal with it as well even though we have a lot of fliers. Encase seems ideal other than those Hornet's Nest appear to be accompanied by Destructive Revelries.. Which would be fine if we don't play Courser or Boon Satyr.. So there is a little tension there.
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Current Decks: GWUKnightfall Modern UWTempo Legacy UGRBurning Wish Cobra Vintage
This is where I have landed at so far. Rabble and Boon are pretty weak right now so I have decided to replace them with courser and upping the curve a bit.
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Stubborn Denial, Sarkhan Unbroken, Dig Through Time, the GU Walker, Krenos, God of Storms, Temur Ascendency, Temur Charm, Disdainful Stroke, Negate...
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im liking a more control/midrange approach playing Sarkhan unbroken, dragons (for Silumgar's Scorn) and Knuckleblade with mana up.
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Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30575_Brad-VS-BBD-BR-Dragons-VS-Temur-Midrange.html#comments
Standard Decks:
Dinosaurs
Aggro Retired
Aggro Retired
Tokens Retired
Temur White Retired
Dragons Retired
Monsters Retired
Aggro Retired
Midrange Retired
Zombies Retired
4 Deathmist Raptor
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Savage Lnuckleblade
2 Dragonlord Atarka
1 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
3 Crater's Claws
3 Roast
3 Forest
2 Mountain
4 Frontier Bivouac
2 Mana Confluence
2 Shivan Reef
2 Temple of Abandon
1 Temple of Epiphany
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Yavimaya Coast
Sideboard:
2 Back to Nature
3 Disdainful Stroke
4 Wild Slash
2 Arc Lightning
1 Barrage of Boulders
+1
Seriously, I actually wasted the time to test company a bunch after that deck tech too. I already suspected it would be bad, but I had some decent players who are friends on the forum suggest that it wasn't. The problem is it is most of the time worse than a value 4, like Huntmaster of the Fells, Bloodbraid Elf, or Siege Rhino. Even at the Frank Karsten 22 Creatures you will miss often enough with a card that you can't afford to have miss. I have never been too high on Genesis Hydra but if you cast it for x=5 atleast the 5/5 is guarenteed. That is pretty hugely under rate, but you can also hit anything reasonable at that cost. Company's constraint at 3 mana is hard to have an actually decent deck with the right density. And even so I don't think a deck with ramp at all is the right place. Elves take those slots and they can't. If you chop off your top end you can still get beat even when resolved by the fact at a certain point where virtual card advantage over takes actual card advantage. I tried to figure out ways to further leverage the mechanic (Temur Ascendancy) which actually almost worked because it allowed atleast a quick turn around point and way to keep way ahead on the mana and redundancy for company but ultimately the sheer low power level enforced by the curve made the deck significantly worse than my stock list. Don't get me wrong I play some 4 and 5 drops alleviate the underpower issue. The deck just had too many opportunities to undermine itself.
The way to leverage this card I now believe is if you have a deck that can win off the power of it's 1 and 2 drops alone and plays like it's trump card as a 3 drop creature. Like a mono white aggro deck or merfolk deck with lords. Those kind of decks would only every play a couple 4 drops anyway. I'm not sure if there is a synergistic aggro deck like that in standard right now. Blue devotion isn't right since Master of Waves basically already does this for the deck and it probably isn't good enough. I don't know Abzan Warriors?? You play it as a way to build a board fast or against control use it like sweeper insurance. This allows decks like this to get to a certain point and hold with like Valorous Stance up and then do the EoT Boon Satyr play without playing Boon Satyr they wouldn't care to play anyway.
Which is sort of why I think BBD's deck is a mess. I think it's the worst Temur deck I've seen in a while. It's like he doesn't get what makes these deck work and is trying to jam some bad cards. Deathmist Raptor is a pretty sad place to be.
I'm not sure. Temur is a interesting mix of players and styles. I think most of players here are Naya players and Jund Aggro/Monsters players. Then there are probably of the GU heavy Bant players and the RUG Good stuff players filling it out. Both of the first 2, sort of styles needed a real reason in the past not to just play Midrange Jund which is what I think would be the same reason they aren't playing Abzan right now. I think most would opt GR Aggro or pseudo devotion, seconded with Abzan Aggro. The latter 2 style of player would probably rather play other big blue decks or a weird(probably Simic) devotion variant.
This largely why I think there is a hard time even finding a consensus here even on like 2 versions of the deck. Or rather why there isn't a deck these days. It's been a while since anyone professional has championed the deck most moving to GR Aggro. Recently people have been trying to pick it up with their test ideas but they aren't our usuals and it is obvious in the card choices.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
4x Heir of the Wilds
4x Frost Walker
4x Savage Knuckleblade
3x Boon Satyr
3x Flamewake Phoenix
3x Thunderbreak Regent
2x Surrak, the Hunt Caller
3x Stormbreath Dragon
Planeswalkers - 2
2x Xenagos, the Reveler
Spells - 8
2x Stubborn Denial
2x Crater's Claws
3x Lightning Strike
1x Roast
1x Island
3x Forest
2x Mountain
3x Temple of Abandon
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Shivan Reef
3x Yavimaya Coast
4x Frontier Bivouac
1x Temple of Epiphany
2x Back to Nature
2x Magma Spray
3x Encase in Ice
2x Roast
1x Barrage of Boulders
1x Xenagos, the Reveler
2x Sarkhan Unbroken
2x Arc Lightning
--- Mana/Ramping ---
First of all, ever since I rebuilt the mana base right after FRF came out, I've been very pleased with it. I rarely take large chunks of damage from it and the colors have been consistent, even with Boon Satyr and Flamewake Phoenix fighting at the 3 drop slot. I think much of this is due to the lack of Elvish Mystic, which I think is an absolute trap card for Temur right now. It pushes you to make your mana awkward (ex: fetching Forest on T1 to play a plain green source). Also, I just don't think a good aggro deck should be playing mana dorks; it severely lowers threat density and makes us more vulnerable to hand disruption and well timed removal spells. Sure, ramping a turn early is nice, but I prefer curving out consistently instead of having those awkward turn 3+ mana dork draws.
--- Strategy/Card choices ---
I took a long look at what made Abzan Aggro decks so good. They don't need mana dorks, they just curve out with efficient creatures and some spot removal thrown in for good measure. Ironically, I used that philosophy to get this deck to where it felt good in most matchups, with Abzan Aggro being the main exception. However, I feel like times may have changed. Encase in Ice in an extremely important card for us, and another reason to be splashing blue right now. It will trump the G/R aggro mirror and it also helps the worst matchup (Abzan Aggro) a LOT. It will also help us get around annoyances such as Hornet Nest and the occasional Arbor Colossus. I am very excited about this card and look forward to trying it out. I also think an advantage will be that, after game 1, our opponents won't be siding in enchantment removal since the deck only runs Boon Satyr pre-board. Of course, we have upgrades like Roast which will help against devotion decks, Siege Rhino decks and the occasional Brimaz that might show up. Xenagos, the Reveler is a card that seems to overperform for me in basically all scenarios. He plays good offense when we're ahead, stalls the board when we're behind, and just does a fantastic job of tilting the axis of the game. I've had several opponents mutter "Didn't see that comin in game 1..." when I drop him and he eventually turns the tide of the game. I prefer Magma Spray over Wild Slash due to the exile clause; it will help against the Phoenixes if they pop up anywhere. And I only board them in against low slung aggro decks where I don't plan to use it to go to the dome, so no need for Slash. Sarkhan Unbroken will be coming in against aggro decks in place of Stormbreath Dragon and I will be trying it out in grindy matchups as well (who am I kidding...I'm playing him cause he's a TEMUR PLANESWALKER! Gotta have a Timmy card in the list somewhere ). Most of the rest of the cards are pretty self explanatory, but feel free to ask questions or provide opinions.
--- Side Notes ---
I've been intrigued by the card Profaner of the Dead. He could absolutely hose token and mono red decks, wipe out mana dorks against devotion decks and give us a way to alpha strike against Hornet Queen (sack Flamewake Phoenix, revive it, swing...sounds fun. Xenagos tokens work nicely too). Could be some hilarious "secret tech" to pull out on somebody. Thoughts?
Savage Knuckleblade this guy is insane, would be one of the most played cards in standard if he fit into other decks.
Stubborn Denial/Disdainful Stroke blue offers a number of counterspells, but these seem to be the most popular suggestions for this deck.
Sarkhan Unbroken This guy is quite strong, draw a card +1 is very solid,and the ability to drop a 4/4 flier immediately to give value even if he gets killed after the first turn is great. He does give us a way to compete with abzan late game if we can protect him (or overload their Downfalls), but does need help to stabilize.
Sideboard options: blue offers a few sideboard cards that can let us move into the more controlling role g2 if we want them, such as Aetherspouts, Keranos, God of Storms, Encase in Ice. While these could be used mainboard, they are likely a bit too narrow, we should remember these when balancing our matchups, but they shouldn't heavily impact the main goal of the deck.
When forming the basis of our deck, we need to make sure we are making good use of these, otherwise we are better just sticking with a RG deck.
I believe Temur's best bet in this standard is to play a Tempo based deck. That means playing a few resilient threats and having answers to theirs. It won't be full control having only one or two finishers like PLA or Ugin, but steadily throwing out things that are very hard to kill or create 2-for-1 scenarios in your favor, thus a loss of card advantage or tempo for the enemy.
Flamewake Phoenix
Ashcloud Phoenix
Sarkhan Unbroken
Genesis Hydra
Dragonlord Atarka
Profaner of the Dead
All of these are good examples of cards that do something else while also creating a creature. Savage Knuckleblade is the reason to play RUG over a more condensed RG or UG list. It's a resilient threat that can also trade well with almost every threat in Standard as long as you keep mana open.
Heir of the Wilds has also been popular due to having pseudo-unblockable, meaning no player wants to have their Siege Rhino trade for a 2/2. He's also versatile in that you can keep him back if you're on the defense.
This is why Deathmist Raptor will prove to be fairly staple in Standard, it has those same advantages but also comes back to the field anytime you flip a card, that's very strong resilience that you can build around with other cards you want to be playing anyways, such as the Phoenixes or even your Mystics.
All that said, I don't think we need to push for trying to kill or destroy every threat our opponent plays, just delay them long enough for our creatures to do the work. Denying card draw, bouncing to the hand, tapping down defenders are all just as good in my opinion as kills as long as we can get our threats to connect.
The best tools in green are the mana dorks which allow you to go up and over your opponent. We always want to play ahead of the curve.
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Savage Knuckleblade
4 Ashcloud Phoenix
3 Genesis Hydra
3 Torrent Elemental
2 Profaner of the Dead
2 Dragonlord Atarka
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Crater's Claws
2 Roast
2 Dig through Time
Planeswalkers
2 Sarkhan Unbroken
2 Roast
3 Anger of the Gods
3 Display of Dominance
4 Atarka's Command
3 Destructive Revelry
This is a list I'd like to tune down more, there's probably some good and bad cards here depending on the matchups, but seems like a good start to me. If anyone has a different idea of where Temur needs to go I'd enjoy hearing it as well as improvements and changes to the 75.
4x Heir of the Wilds
4x Frost Walker
4x Savage Knuckleblade
3x Boon Satyr
3x Flamewake Phoenix
3x Thunderbreak Regent
2x Surrak, the Hunt Caller
3x Stormbreath Dragon
Planeswalkers - 2
2x Xenagos, the Reveler
Spells - 8
2x Stubborn Denial
2x Crater's Claws
2x Wild Slash
2x Roast
1x Island
3x Forest
2x Mountain
3x Temple of Abandon
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Shivan Reef
3x Yavimaya Coast
4x Frontier Bivouac
1x Temple of Epiphany
2x Back to Nature
1x Magma Spray
3x Encase in Ice
2x Disdainful Stroke
1x Roast
1x Barrage of Boulders
1x Xenagos, the Reveler
2x Sarkhan Unbroken
2x Arc Lightning
The sideboard slightly changed with -1 Magma Spray, -1 Roast, +2 Disdainful Stroke. I wanted more ways to interact with larger spells and it paid off. Sniped a couple of Siege Rhinos, a Liliana Vess, and a Dig Through Time; it was backbreaking. The mainboard changes were -3 Lightning Strike, +1 Roast, +2 Wild Slash. The idea is that Wild Slash is more efficient against most of the same threats Lighting Strike would deal with, and I don't mind having a 2nd Roast because it helps game 1 against the midrange decks (it does hurt against control, but that matchup is already well in my favor so I don't mind the trade off). All of these were great calls that paid off in several games.
One play in particular that stood out to me was right after my Abzan Midrange opponent played a Siege Rhino which was sitting across from my Boon Satyr and Frost Walker. This would have been almost game over pre-DTK, but this time I played Xenagos, the Reveler, used +1 for two red mana, Roasted it, swung for 8. That type of swing is just brutal and makes me like this deck even more.
I agree with you about these cards and thought I'd post my list for comparison.
4 Savage Knuckleblade
4 Thunderbreak Regent
3 Heir of the wilds
2 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
1 Ice fall Regent
1 Dragonlord Atarka
1 Atarka, World Render
4 Atarka's Command
4 Draconic Roar
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Crater's Claws
Planeswalkers - 5
2 Sarkhan Unbroken
2 Xenagos, the reveler
1 Sarkhan, Dragonspeaker
2 Roast
3 Anger of the Gods
2 Display of Dominance
2 Temur charm
4 Destructive Revelry
2 Rending volley
I run more Dragons and Draconic Roar and Atarka's Command main, along side 26 lands and 0 mana dorks. I hate ripping mana dorks. 26 lands means a T2 Atarka's command for 3 dmg + a scry into T3 Regent/Xenagos/Hasted Knucks happens satisfactorily often. Anger also becomes better from the SB with no mana dorks.
Heir of the wilds, big knucks, Surrak and Xenagos hold down the ground, while fliers and burn take care of business. The abundant direct damage from Command, Roar and Thunderbreak can end games surprisingly quickly.
The Planeswalkers give some card advantage, and I toyed with Kiora, but replaced her with Crater's Claws, which seems more suited to Atarka's game plan of smash face. Speaking of, if either Atarka hits the board, faces are truly smashed.
My list may be a bit creature light, but it seems to have game and it's always fun to play DRAGONS RARRRR
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Savage Knuckleblade
4 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Thunderbreak Regent
2 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
Planeswalkers (7)
3 Sarkhan Unbroken
4 Xenagos, the Reveler
2 Draconic Roar
2 Crater's Claws
2 Roast
Lands (23)
3 Forest
3 Mountain
4 Frontier Bivouac
3 Mana Confluence
2 Shivan Reef
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Yavimaya Coast
3 Heir of the Wilds
3 Hornet Nest
2 Destructive Revelry
4 Stubborn Denial
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Roast
I remain unimpressed with Goblin Rabblemaster, so think I would replace that with maybe Courser of Kruphix which would give the deck a more mid-rangey feel.
Edit: Oh, and I think it is time for some dragon/flier hate given the number of Stormbreath and Thunderbreak flying around.
2 forest
2 mountain
4 frontier bivouac
4 wooded foothills
4 yavimaya coast
2 shivan reef
2 mana confluence
2 temple of abandon
1 haven of the spirit dragon
creatures
4 elvish mystic
4 rattleclaw mystic
4 savage knuckleblade
4 thunderbreak regent
3 xenagos, the reveler
2 polukranos, world eater
4 stormbreath dragon
2 arbor colossus
3 draconic roar
3 crater's claws
3 stubborn denial
1 roast
4 disdainful stroke
4 anger of the gods
2 reclamation sage
2 roast
2 wild slash
1 stubborn denial
The mana base is too painful. Just play G/R or U/R dragons. Its a better deck at this point. Until we get a smoother mana base for these colors this deck is stonewalled.
I like it a lot. How have you found Arbor Colossus in the main?
arbor colossus is somewhere id like to be right now given the prevalence of
1) mantis rider
2) thundebreak/stormbreath
3) roast
4 Elvish Mystic
3 Frost Walker
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Heir of the Wilds
4 Savage Knuckleblade
2 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Thunderbreak Regent
3 Boon Satyr
2 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
3 Mountain
4 Frontier Bivouac
2 Mana Confluence
2 Shivan Reef
3 Temple of Abandon
1 Temple of Epiphany
1 Temple of Mystery
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Yavimaya Coast
4 Crater's Claws
1 Hornet Nest
2 Destructive Revelry
3 Disdainful Stroke
2 Feed the Clan
3 Stubborn Denial
1 Surrak Dragonclaw
2 Barrage of Boulders
1 Roast
This deck does some stuff right and some areas need some improvements but there are somethings clear to me that can be drawn from this list and CVM's winning list.
1. Why play Temur over GR? The threats you play at 2 and 3 mana all atleast trade with most cards decks play up to 6 mana. This format save a few key cards has a 4 toughness ceiling. While it is awkward to have your 3 drops die to 1 mana shocks some times it's more awkward to be ahead with mana get the T3 Thunderbreak Regent and your opponent is already beating you down with 2 creatures that would trade the next turn or take 8. This is why you play Temur. If it weren't for Knuckleblade and Frost Walker I think I would have gone somewhere else a long time ago. In fact, after briefly playing Temur with Khans of Tarkir I switched to other green decks until Fate Reforged because until Frost Walker I felt this deck didn't do anything better than Abzan Aggro or straight GR since Knuckleblade couldn't carry all the weight and Rattleclaw Mystic was no where near good enough to shore up aggression for the output of the ramp. I obviously had a soft spot for cards like Claws and Stubborn Denial but going to Jund, or Naya (save the terrible mana) or Abzan or Sultai gave you real removal and different ways to attack the same problems. I will admit Temur's permission gives you a versatile angle to lock into a game and I love having that at my disposal. However, sometimes you don't need an answer for everything and it's still too easy to be overpowered if you aren't the one presenting the threats.
I'm going to say something controversial here. But as I see it as it stands if Frost Walker isn't good enough Temur isn't good enough. I'm not saying Frost Walker is a 4 of. I actually quite like 3. And often board down to 1 or 0. It's that you need no less than 7 2 drops that can actually push the board. If you don't have this number you need to be ramping into 4 mana plays that really matter. In which case you can probably skip on the Knuckleblade (and blue in general) and just take a page out of CVM's book. To date I'm yet to see a blue card in these sets over 3 cmc worth playing at rate. Don't get me wrong Knuckleblade is a decent 4 drop and decent 7 drop. But there are other cards more impressive the turn you play them at 4 if you weren't actively building your board before. Knuckleblade is aggressive and not to resilient until you untap. It's stock is way better when you are ahead or parity. If you are behind there are much better 4's.
2. 4 Thunderbreak Regent's is the new Standard. I know Adrew didn't play all 4 and split with a Ashcloud, but looking at how CVM played all 4 and had 2 additional Ashclouds pretty much says everything. First off, Ashcloud isn't dead. Secondly we want atleast 8 4 power fliers in our deck. Ashcloud is a decent hedge against other decks that play 4 toughness fliers so I see some argument there, but I think it's pretty clear from all the testing that people have been doing this card fundamentally changes awkward matchups like Jeskai. You don't need to lean so heavy on removal since you can win in the skies. This is also the reason we've seen a return of Arbor Colossus. I was actually on that plan in the fall, and it was decent but only if I was the guarenteed bigger deck. The natural way to approach that is psuedo GR devotion which instead of playing Haven throw some Nykthos in CVM's list and a couple Genesis Hydra. I'm not saying that is generally better though. With 8 dragons, we can still play a couple Draconic Roar and probably can afford up to 1 Haven. That's where I'm at. Since Thunderbreak relieves a lot of the tension on Lightning Strike I think having only a couple Draconic Roar's is more than reasonable. This is why I like the 4 Thunderbreak plan in general.
3. Disdainful Stroke is very important. Unfortunately CVM's list is another list that goes a little bit bigger (although smaller than Devotion) which means it's right above us on the food chain. Yes you could build an equal sized Temur deck but at that point you are just playing the blue for Disdainful Stroke I guess. You might as well leverage your early bodies if you want to leave up any permission. If you look at Adrew's list he has Surrak. I don't know if Surrak is good enough but it's important to be able to turn the corner with that sort of deck. See if you can play out a decent early game and then keep them off their 4 drop with Stroke you want to be able to untap and capitalize. Surrak is ok, but still has only 4 toughness for the conditionalness. I still like Shaman better, but there is a place in general for this sort of turn around card as atleast 2 or 3 of. What is more tricky is to find more cards that let you do something like Stroke but work against resolved creatures. Roast, Encase, etc.. all have their shortcomings. We probably need 2 in our 75 but I haven't really nailed down that slot and preferably at 2 mana and instant. Like if you pull off that timing. Elf, 2 or 3 drop, 2 drop leave up Stroke, Game Changer 4/5 drop you probably win that game.
4. I really don't like Goblin Rabblemaster right now. Did you see the Seismic Rupture's in Chris' Board. Now Red has a drown in sorrow that is quite playable. Anger is too much of a liability for most red decks, but a 3 mana Pyroclasm works decently with Caryatid. Everyone is ready for that card. It sometimes gives you free wins which is why I was playing 2, but the problem now is if you are relying on your 2 drop aggression Rabblemaster isn't a safe 3. See I don't mind having stuff like Boon Satyr or having the 2 drops die. Often a Shaman can push them out of range, and they don't draw the same sort of heat Rabblemaster does or the same timing envelope. Satyr pushes them to spend mana on their turn or let's you untap with Stubborn Denial. This creates openings. Frost Walker or Heir only cost 2 and have such high damage output you don't even need to overextend. The problem is a Rabblemaster in hand is only getting worse and worse in a deck that can't play enough removal to push it through. I'm even thinking playing the 2 Courser again. Now I know there was a lot of discussion about Courser and an aggro deck. I've always claimed it was fine just not always the best. I've played plenty of aggro GR decks with Borderland Ranger. It's still passable as long as that isn't your primary 3 drop plan. We have Knuckleblade and Boon Satyr if needed that can fill that role.
5. For some reason there are a decent number of Hornet Nests showing up right now in sideboards. Not really sure why given all the fliers. It might be useful for that spell option from point 3 to deal with it as well even though we have a lot of fliers. Encase seems ideal other than those Hornet's Nest appear to be accompanied by Destructive Revelries.. Which would be fine if we don't play Courser or Boon Satyr.. So there is a little tension there.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
2x Mana Confluence
2x Mountain
3x Shivan Reef
2x Temple of Abandon
1x Temple of Epiphany
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Yavimaya Coast
4x Frost Walker
4x Heir of the Wilds
4x Savage Knuckleblade
4x Stormbreath Dragon
3x Surrak, the Hunt Caller
4x Thunderbreak Regent
4x Crater's Claws
2x Stubborn Denial
2x Barrage of Boulders
2x Destructive Revelry
3x Disdainful Stroke
3x Hornet Nest
3x Roast
1x Stubborn Denial
1x Surrak Dragonclaw
This is where I have landed at so far. Rabble and Boon are pretty weak right now so I have decided to replace them with courser and upping the curve a bit.
Standard Decks:
Dinosaurs
Aggro Retired
Aggro Retired
Tokens Retired
Temur White Retired
Dragons Retired
Monsters Retired
Aggro Retired
Midrange Retired
Zombies Retired