I agree, Temur ascendancy is a card that asks to make you feel bad. Early game is messes up your curve, and late game it is worse then a basic land. Also Kibler's list this week is garbage, I fail to see how it can beat any other deck in the format; save UB control and other tier 2 decks.
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"We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain bad at Magic."
-Benjamin "The Innovator" Franklin
Standard:
Nothing, hate standard after Rhino
Modern:
Looking at Evolution Decks, RUG or [mana]WRG[mana]
Legacy:
Shardless Foundry ('Cause I have a crippling addiction to Shardless Agent)BUG (and I'm to broke for goyfs)
EDH: RGUSurrak Dragon Tribal!RGU URArjun StormUR GUEzuri TokensGU GRBUYidris GoodstuffGRBU
Temur Ascendancy is just a win more card. If you're in a position to truly take advantage of it odds are you would have won any way. All you're doing is messing with you're tempo.
With Temur I want to be casting guys every turn that are threats or ramp me into threats. And as I've said before, what happens when you don't draw that Ascendancy at the beginning of the game, then you risk drawing it later when that card could've been a threat.
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"We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain bad at Magic."
-Benjamin "The Innovator" Franklin
Standard:
Nothing, hate standard after Rhino
Modern:
Looking at Evolution Decks, RUG or [mana]WRG[mana]
Legacy:
Shardless Foundry ('Cause I have a crippling addiction to Shardless Agent)BUG (and I'm to broke for goyfs)
EDH: RGUSurrak Dragon Tribal!RGU URArjun StormUR GUEzuri TokensGU GRBUYidris GoodstuffGRBU
Waally is right. The problem is that you would need it on turn 3 to get value out of it. It doesn't play nicely later in the game. Also, instead of T3 Ascendancy into T4 Ashcloud or something, it could be T3 Knuckleblade into T4 Ashcloud which is much better for tempo and pressure.
I agree with the tempo/pressure loss, but only as part of the 60. I feel like it would be a good sideboard card against decks that are built for the long game. Against Abzan or Whip decks it can put that much more pressure since your threats now have haste and give you some card advantage with (presumably) each threat that drops
Okay moving the topic away from Ascendancy, since people are clearly split on it. What do we take out or shift around to add Shaman of the Great Hunt, Whisperwood Elemental, Monastery Siege, and Yasova Dragonclaw. Obviously the cards get less playable as the list goes on.
I think cutting out the top end (5+ drops) and making the deck more lean is the way to go with the Sorcerer, it seems like he wants to follow up a Rabblemaster or Knuckleblade then draw cards to close the game out quickly.
What I've heard and agreed with is that Whisperwood is good for the more aggressive matchups, as it kills all of tokens as burns x/1's and x/2's. And when you Manifest a hooded hydra you can flip it for GG and still get the counters!
Siege just seems like gas against control, but the matchup is already good to begin with.
The new Khan appears to get better if you can beef her up, but unfortunatly there are not a lot of cost effective ways to do that in standard at the moment.
Be on the lookout for the RG Legendary Dragon, I really hope she won't dissipation. Maybe its like "Ferocious - Whenever a Dragon you control attacks, search your library for a creature with power 4 for or greater, reveal it, and put in onto the battlefield tapped and attacking or put in into your hand."
"We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain bad at Magic."
-Benjamin "The Innovator" Franklin
Standard:
Nothing, hate standard after Rhino
Modern:
Looking at Evolution Decks, RUG or [mana]WRG[mana]
Legacy:
Shardless Foundry ('Cause I have a crippling addiction to Shardless Agent)BUG (and I'm to broke for goyfs)
EDH: RGUSurrak Dragon Tribal!RGU URArjun StormUR GUEzuri TokensGU GRBUYidris GoodstuffGRBU
I feel like all of the creature cards spoiled so far are worse than their current counterparts at that CMC.
Depending on the matchup, I think Monastery Siege could be sideboard material. Decks that run powerful, 1-for-1 destruction would crumple under that enchantment. It's nice that it sort of protects itself from non-creature, enchantment removal. I'd throw Whisperwood in for sideboard consideration if the meta shifts in favor of broader destruction. With two board sweeps at 5CMC (black and white), something could emerge.
The dragon is definitely what I'm holding out hope for.
How is the Shaman worse then a Polukranos in a low cmc temur deck? It pumps your guys and draws cards? You would be more R then G but getting all that power seems like a fair trade off. And his ability will trigger even if he'd doesn't attack. But I can see an argument where they go turn 2 or 3 Courser and you can't ever swing with him. essentially timewalking you.
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"We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain bad at Magic."
-Benjamin "The Innovator" Franklin
Standard:
Nothing, hate standard after Rhino
Modern:
Looking at Evolution Decks, RUG or [mana]WRG[mana]
Legacy:
Shardless Foundry ('Cause I have a crippling addiction to Shardless Agent)BUG (and I'm to broke for goyfs)
EDH: RGUSurrak Dragon Tribal!RGU URArjun StormUR GUEzuri TokensGU GRBUYidris GoodstuffGRBU
How is the Shaman worse then a Polukranos in a low cmc temur deck? It pumps your guys and draws cards?
Polukranos is way more resilient, kills dudes and gets HUGE, and is a mana sink for all of your mana dorks to pump into. He's also way above the curve as a 5/5 for 4 that can come out on turn 3 very easily in this deck. Even on turn 4 he's above the curve.
But I can see an argument where they go turn 2 or 3 Courser and you can't ever swing with him. essentially timewalking you.
Isn't trading that guy for a Courser actually a good trade for you? Courser will be netting your opponent life and free card advantage; the shaman is brittle, and you're really only drawing cards with him after you've run out of gas (post turn 5-6 probably), if you're drawing cards with him earlier than that then you're wasting turns and not really playing the deck correctly, ESPECIALLY if you're already going for a more lean, low mana cost more aggressive version of the deck. In the end, if trading our 4 drop for their 3 drop is a good trade for us, why are we running 4 drops that are worse than 3 drops?
How is the Shaman worse then a Polukranos in a low cmc temur deck? It pumps your guys and draws cards? You would be more R then G but getting all that power seems like a fair trade off. And his ability will trigger even if he'd doesn't attack. But I can see an argument where they go turn 2 or 3 Courser and you can't ever swing with him. essentially timewalking you.
Just based on his stats, I rarely see opponents wincing at a Boon Satyr, which comes down a turn earlier but swings at the same time as the Shaman. There are so many ways to take care of a 4/2 body. The pump ability on the Shaman could be relevant, but I'd be surprised. It's an ability we've seen before, and it's usually dismissed as a win-more ability that only goes off because you had a better board state to begin with. If you want a good example of a relevant pump ability, look at that gorgeous white-green dragon. Bolster on him is uhhhhmazing. Finally, the card draw ability is just too expensive to really matter unless you're playing a control variant of Temur that is holding open mana for counterspells - and I don't think that's what Temur wants to do to begin with.
I'd just as soon play a Polukranos with a beefier body and eat an opponent's creature the next turn.
Yeah I don't like the Shaman at all. The 2 toughness is awkward and it can't compete with other 4 drops, most notably Siege Rhino. Our other 4-mana creatures can.
The new Phoenix, on the other hand, seems awesome. I am not sure if it is worth dropping Boon Satyr and lowering the Ferocious density in the deck, but it seems promising. That is my main concern (plus the Boon Satyr bestow is still an awesome mana sink), but other than that it seems great. I kind of want to play both Phoenix and Boon Satyr but I think that would make the deck have too many 3-drops.
Just based on his stats, I rarely see opponents wincing at a Boon Satyr, which comes down a turn earlier but swings at the same time as the Shaman. There are so many ways to take care of a 4/2 body. The pump ability on the Shaman could be relevant, but I'd be surprised. It's an ability we've seen before, and it's usually dismissed as a win-more ability that only goes off because you had a better board state to begin with. If you want a good example of a relevant pump ability, look at that gorgeous white-green dragon. Bolster on him is uhhhhmazing. Finally, the card draw ability is just too expensive to really matter unless you're playing a control variant of Temur that is holding open mana for counterspells - and I don't think that's what Temur wants to do to begin with.
I'd just as soon play a Polukranos with a beefier body and eat an opponent's creature the next turn.
I think the draw card ability is nice when you get to topdeck mode and you have a few power 4+ guys out and a bunch of mana dorks. I think the draw card is good for most Temur decks, because there is always a super grindy matchup versus abzan and drawing more could seal the game. But I disgress I think his pump is the best feature "leveling up" your mana dorks even if they get in once or twice.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain bad at Magic."
-Benjamin "The Innovator" Franklin
Standard:
Nothing, hate standard after Rhino
Modern:
Looking at Evolution Decks, RUG or [mana]WRG[mana]
Legacy:
Shardless Foundry ('Cause I have a crippling addiction to Shardless Agent)BUG (and I'm to broke for goyfs)
EDH: RGUSurrak Dragon Tribal!RGU URArjun StormUR GUEzuri TokensGU GRBUYidris GoodstuffGRBU
you guys are looking at the shaman and analyzing the card in a vacuum, as usual, and overestimating the actual potential of other cards... as usual(like the new phoenix, which i think is pretty close to unusable in this deck), and not thinking about the board positions it could be good in.
In temur aggro (as in heir of the wilds, knuckles, polukranos, ashclouds and stormbreaths) this card is actually probably even better than ashcloud phoenix. With 4 of these in your deck, you´re able to have both knuckles and him as a turn 4 haster. Even on turn 3 after a rattleclaw, it´s better than ashcloud phoenix. And if you curve out, say t2 heir of the wilds, t3 knuckles, t4 him (this is pretty common, no magical christmasland here guys), he is really good. Like really really good. Your opponent either blocks him (most likely, since at that point few things kill knuckleblade, and heir is the one that deals least damage) or doesn´t. If he/she does, you get a 5/5 and a 3/3 and just keep on playing, and if he doesn´t block, that´s ok too.
The card can get out of hand very quickly, and that´s not to mention if you just land another one once the first gets dealt with. It´s like master of the waves, every single additional copy of this you play (hopefully in sequence) will be just backbreaking. Even if it only hits once, that´s already value in my book, since your opponent is not likely to want to take another hit from this thing, which will likely make him waste resources, tapping out, playing blockers etc, which is kind of what you want, since cards like temur charm and craters claws will make it real tough for your opponent.
The draw card mode is probably not too relevant. As MrSelkies said, is probably not too relevant (and shouldn´t be) early game. It´s most likely going to draw 1 or 2 cards at most per game (if you even activate it).
I´m not going to lie, the fact that he has 2 toughness is a BIG deal. it´s whats going to make the card not as good. The fact that insane cards like the monastary mentor and soulfire grand master etc, have been spoiled, are probably going to make things like magma sprayandmagma jet be played more often, which kind of sucks. Those cards were already good against this deck, and now they´re just gross. Aldo, boon satyr had the problem of being terrible against rhino... this is no different, and that´s sad
Moving forward, i´m going to have to guess, that this deck is going to want to HAVE to have 4 main deck stubborn denial. That is probably the most important card. Not playing threats on curve could actually be more important, since it allows you not to lose tempo in the long run. I would hate to go t4 shaman and just get magma sprayed. Unlike with ashcloud phoenix for example, if i had a t5 shaman with denial backup, i´d actually get to hit with it, as opposed to not hitting with the phoenix
I've been toying with my own Temur list after building one based off of the one Hoogland used at the player's championship. I definitely feel like Temur is a deck best suited for a beatdown/tempo role so I've tweaked my list to accompany that. I really like how it plays so far and hope to have some results soon to share with you guys. Here's the list:
Some of my changes: Fanatic of Xenagos instead of Courser of Kruphix. For starters, it fits the beatdown/tempo theme much better than Courser of Kruphix. In the few games I played with the Kruphix-based list, it felt like I was taking a turn off from what I really wanted to do whenever I casted it. In contrast, Fanatic of Xenagos allows us to keep up pressure and will always make all of the ferocious abilities better for at least 1 turn if not more. Turn 2 Heir of the Wilds into turn 3 Fanatic really puts the pressure on, and lategame you can cast it to make for a guaranteed more mana efficient Crater's Claws (essentially only using 1 more mana for the same effect while also putting a creature on the field). One of the inherent weaknesses of Fanatic of Xenagos is that you'll have players who will pay tribute with the idea of killing it the following turn before it attacks. The difference is that our deck makes up for that weakness with Stubborn Denial, which simply makes this card much better in this shell. Also, with the 7 mana creatures and 23 lands, Courser of Kruphix doesn't provide as much value as it would in the slower, more midrange 24-25 land decks. I still want to test this further, but I'm liking how it feels so far. The only potential issue I see is that this may make us weaker against the super low-slung aggro decks, but with all of our cheap removal and interaction, I think it should be fine.
Removed the maindeck Dig Through Time, Reclamation Sage, Force Away and 1 Temur Charm for 3 Lightning Strike and a 4th Stubborn Denial. Similar to the above change, I feel these changes keep the deck on track for a faster tempo and really apply pressure by taking out early blockers and protecting our fatties. Temur Charm and Dig Through Time have felt really gross at times and I kept finding myself wishing I had more mana efficient ways to mess with my opponent's gameplan. We all know how good Stubborn Denial is (even better now with the addition of Fanatic of Xenagos) so I won't go into much detail there. Lightning Strike just feels like a natural fit for this deck since it takes out the early heroic creatures before they get big, or Sidisi, Goblin Rabblemaster etc. For 2 mana at instant speed, it allows a lot of flexibility at dealing with threats and won't be a dead card like Force Away or Reclamation Sage.
Fitting with the mana efficiency/tempo theme, Back To Nature is now the card of choice for dealing with enchantment based decks. It's instant speed, cheaper and can be a potential blowout against some of the currently relevant decks.
At some point I may try Elvish Mystic once I get some more pain lands, but I'm afraid it will simply make the mana too awkward. The real key of this deck is a turn 2 mana dork or Heir of the Wilds into a meaningful turn 3 play like Savage Knuckleblade, Fanatic of Xenagos or Polukranos, World Eater. Right now it seems to be doing this consistently with minimal mana issues so I'm going to keep it as-is for now. It's also worthy to note that these types of openers (especially on the play) are very effective at busting through Sylvan Caryatid and Courser of Kruphix.
Anyways, that's it for now. I plan on going to a Super IQ this coming weekend and will also be playing games during the week as well, so I'll post back with results and thoughts.
Four cards in grave and a morphed Rattleclaw makes for an interesting combination with cruise.
With rattleclaw I seem to be hitting 5 mana pretty quickly, perhaps I should put in more five drops? (I had a red green version that used generator servants that featured 4 stormbreaths and 3 Sarkhans, but it felt like it would choke on the top of the curve too often).
Am I running to many spells (that don't create creatures). Should I only be going 4 Crater's Claws (and hordeling outburst)?
I'm not sure if I should be running 3 cruise or 2 Courser and 2 cruise. Does anyone have experience with this?
I'm not sure if some of the Stormbreaths should be Sarkhans.
Should I maindeck the lightning strikes or the charms?
Should I put some disdainful strokes in the board?
I think I might need one more Polukranos. We're so close to FTR that I'm holding out to see if a better 4 drop is spoiled. I could take out Polukranos for Ashcloud but I worry that I'm opening myself up to Drown in Sorrow. Suggestions on what to cut to add another 4 drop?
Outburst feels like its underperforming. I'm thinking about changing it out after rotation.
I'm worried the the matchup against whip decks is weak and that I have a bunch of painlands without any lifegain.
How many spells do I really need to fuel cruise? One school of thought says that if I don't have a graveyard full of creatures, I've probably won anyway. I'm also worried that the deck might lack sufficient threat density in its current setup.
In testing, Hordeling Outburst feels like it might be underperforming. I'm thinking of cutting it after rotation.
I think Outburst would be better as aBoon Satyr, but it doesn't have synergy with Rabblemaster or treasure cruise. I think going up yo 4 yavimaya coast and 1 shivan reef can offset the need to use mana confluence, as out mana is already fairly great.
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"We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain bad at Magic."
-Benjamin "The Innovator" Franklin
Standard:
Nothing, hate standard after Rhino
Modern:
Looking at Evolution Decks, RUG or [mana]WRG[mana]
Legacy:
Shardless Foundry ('Cause I have a crippling addiction to Shardless Agent)BUG (and I'm to broke for goyfs)
EDH: RGUSurrak Dragon Tribal!RGU URArjun StormUR GUEzuri TokensGU GRBUYidris GoodstuffGRBU
Do you really need to maximize your yard? Elvish Mystic and Rattleclaw produce the same amount of mana for cruise alive or dead (a plus if your opponent is killing your manadorks). Rabblemaster seems like a fairly cheap way to fill up the graveyard. Either your opponent spends some removal to put it there or the game is ending quickly. Likewise, I think I've seen more Polukranos die to removal than swing.
I've only got to test with cruise at one FNM. Decided to go from 2 courser, 2 cruise to 3 cruise. It seems really nice when you've got five mana on the board, a couple cards in your graveyard and are out of gas. Not as nice as being able to cast it and drop the cards you pull on the next turn, but when you've got one card left in hand, I can think of worst things to have than a cruise.
So what do people think about the spoilers now that the full set is out? I don't think Temur got a whole lot of love compared to some other clans [aka Jeskai].
I will probably be playing some number of Magma Spray or Wild Slash in the main board to get rid of threats like Monastery Mentor and the Soul fire Grandmaster. If other people do the same then it might be worth just moving to a more midrange build to get rid of some of these 2-toughness creatures.
Shaman, Phoenix, and Yasova I want to be good but they all seem a bit too fragile. Still, i want to try them out. The Phoenix has resiliency and evasion so that is the most promising card to me. However it also requires the aggressive build to work properly, so I guess I will have to wait and see how the new meta shapes up.
i´d suggest lightning strike main instead. It kills both soulfire, mentor and stuff from the abzan aggro decks, (lion and early deathdealer). As well as still killing seeker of the way and rabblemasters. I still love me some fall of the hammer although everybody hates it
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A huge thanks to Argetlam and the guys at Hakai studios for this awesome banner
The only things Lightning Strike kills that the 2-damage spells don't are Mantis Rider and Fleecemane Lion. Mantis Rider's been declining in popularity recently, and Lion isn't as big of a problem for us. I think the mana efficiency of Wild Slash is something that gives it an edge. Some times I want to go two-drop, removal spell on turn 3, or 3-drop, removal spell on turn 4. Also, it hedges against turbofog! Totally relevant, right? <_<
I guess another thing that Strike can do that Wild Slash and Magma Spray can't is take out a Seeker of the Way with Prowess backup. So, I do think there is some merit to playing Lightning Strike instead. However, I expect to see a lot less of that guy with Soulfire Grand Master around.
edit: Oh, it also kills a Monastery Swiftspear that has Prowess backup as well. So there is that to consider. I'm going to start with Wild Claw, I think, and if I hate it I'll switch back or drop it entirely. I used to run Strike but dropped it for Temur Charm.
Ok so i 5-0´d the fnm last night, which was pretty satisfying since people were telling me the deck was bad and that i should change it (the guy who beat me in the finals of the WMCQ, just to add salt to the wound).
I beat mardu control, "normal" mardu (although i played incorrectly and almost lost), 2 abzan aggro (one a bit more midrangey) and 4 color whip.
going forward, i´m gonna try something along the lines of:
I´m also considering frost walker as a card should be included. It´s basically the 2 drop we needed to compete against abzan agros (insane) 2 drops. Unfortunately, i don´t like the fact that a single rabelmaster token can trump it completely. I´d probably cut the 2 temur charms and something else for 3 or 4 copies. It also clogs up the 2 drop slot (it´s already somewhat tough to know if one should play rattelclaw or heir t2)but it should probably be tested.
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A huge thanks to Argetlam and the guys at Hakai studios for this awesome banner
I'm running a build with 6 slots for something that isn't a creature. Four of those are going to be crater's claws. I'm looking for suggestions for the other two spots. I tried stubborn denial, and ended up with it getting blanked in the mirror. Any suggestions for main deck. Cards I was thinking of are:
Lightning Strike, really doesn't need any explanation.
Arc Lightning, added utility but at a higher mana cost. On the other hand, if you're going to use two mana for casting a spell their isn't much of a bonus for leaving one open if you don't have a use for it.
Barrage of Boulders, not so much for the one point of damage in most matchups as for the way to clear blocks.
Chandra Pyromaster. Expensive and in most cases will not kill a potential blocker. On the other hand it does have some upsides.
Any ideas?
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-Benjamin "The Innovator" Franklin
Standard:
Nothing, hate standard after Rhino
Modern:
Looking at Evolution Decks, RUG or [mana]WRG[mana]
Legacy:
Shardless Foundry ('Cause I have a crippling addiction to Shardless Agent) BUG (and I'm to broke for goyfs)
EDH:
RGUSurrak Dragon Tribal!RGU
URArjun StormUR
GUEzuri TokensGU
GRBUYidris GoodstuffGRBU
-Benjamin "The Innovator" Franklin
Standard:
Nothing, hate standard after Rhino
Modern:
Looking at Evolution Decks, RUG or [mana]WRG[mana]
Legacy:
Shardless Foundry ('Cause I have a crippling addiction to Shardless Agent) BUG (and I'm to broke for goyfs)
EDH:
RGUSurrak Dragon Tribal!RGU
URArjun StormUR
GUEzuri TokensGU
GRBUYidris GoodstuffGRBU
I think cutting out the top end (5+ drops) and making the deck more lean is the way to go with the Sorcerer, it seems like he wants to follow up a Rabblemaster or Knuckleblade then draw cards to close the game out quickly.
What I've heard and agreed with is that Whisperwood is good for the more aggressive matchups, as it kills all of tokens as burns x/1's and x/2's. And when you Manifest a hooded hydra you can flip it for GG and still get the counters!
Siege just seems like gas against control, but the matchup is already good to begin with.
The new Khan appears to get better if you can beef her up, but unfortunatly there are not a lot of cost effective ways to do that in standard at the moment.
Be on the lookout for the RG Legendary Dragon, I really hope she won't dissipation. Maybe its like "Ferocious - Whenever a Dragon you control attacks, search your library for a creature with power 4 for or greater, reveal it, and put in onto the battlefield tapped and attacking or put in into your hand."
-Benjamin "The Innovator" Franklin
Standard:
Nothing, hate standard after Rhino
Modern:
Looking at Evolution Decks, RUG or [mana]WRG[mana]
Legacy:
Shardless Foundry ('Cause I have a crippling addiction to Shardless Agent) BUG (and I'm to broke for goyfs)
EDH:
RGUSurrak Dragon Tribal!RGU
URArjun StormUR
GUEzuri TokensGU
GRBUYidris GoodstuffGRBU
Depending on the matchup, I think Monastery Siege could be sideboard material. Decks that run powerful, 1-for-1 destruction would crumple under that enchantment. It's nice that it sort of protects itself from non-creature, enchantment removal. I'd throw Whisperwood in for sideboard consideration if the meta shifts in favor of broader destruction. With two board sweeps at 5CMC (black and white), something could emerge.
The dragon is definitely what I'm holding out hope for.
-Benjamin "The Innovator" Franklin
Standard:
Nothing, hate standard after Rhino
Modern:
Looking at Evolution Decks, RUG or [mana]WRG[mana]
Legacy:
Shardless Foundry ('Cause I have a crippling addiction to Shardless Agent) BUG (and I'm to broke for goyfs)
EDH:
RGUSurrak Dragon Tribal!RGU
URArjun StormUR
GUEzuri TokensGU
GRBUYidris GoodstuffGRBU
Polukranos is way more resilient, kills dudes and gets HUGE, and is a mana sink for all of your mana dorks to pump into. He's also way above the curve as a 5/5 for 4 that can come out on turn 3 very easily in this deck. Even on turn 4 he's above the curve.
Isn't trading that guy for a Courser actually a good trade for you? Courser will be netting your opponent life and free card advantage; the shaman is brittle, and you're really only drawing cards with him after you've run out of gas (post turn 5-6 probably), if you're drawing cards with him earlier than that then you're wasting turns and not really playing the deck correctly, ESPECIALLY if you're already going for a more lean, low mana cost more aggressive version of the deck. In the end, if trading our 4 drop for their 3 drop is a good trade for us, why are we running 4 drops that are worse than 3 drops?
Just based on his stats, I rarely see opponents wincing at a Boon Satyr, which comes down a turn earlier but swings at the same time as the Shaman. There are so many ways to take care of a 4/2 body. The pump ability on the Shaman could be relevant, but I'd be surprised. It's an ability we've seen before, and it's usually dismissed as a win-more ability that only goes off because you had a better board state to begin with. If you want a good example of a relevant pump ability, look at that gorgeous white-green dragon. Bolster on him is uhhhhmazing. Finally, the card draw ability is just too expensive to really matter unless you're playing a control variant of Temur that is holding open mana for counterspells - and I don't think that's what Temur wants to do to begin with.
I'd just as soon play a Polukranos with a beefier body and eat an opponent's creature the next turn.
The new Phoenix, on the other hand, seems awesome. I am not sure if it is worth dropping Boon Satyr and lowering the Ferocious density in the deck, but it seems promising. That is my main concern (plus the Boon Satyr bestow is still an awesome mana sink), but other than that it seems great. I kind of want to play both Phoenix and Boon Satyr but I think that would make the deck have too many 3-drops.
I think the draw card ability is nice when you get to topdeck mode and you have a few power 4+ guys out and a bunch of mana dorks. I think the draw card is good for most Temur decks, because there is always a super grindy matchup versus abzan and drawing more could seal the game. But I disgress I think his pump is the best feature "leveling up" your mana dorks even if they get in once or twice.
-Benjamin "The Innovator" Franklin
Standard:
Nothing, hate standard after Rhino
Modern:
Looking at Evolution Decks, RUG or [mana]WRG[mana]
Legacy:
Shardless Foundry ('Cause I have a crippling addiction to Shardless Agent) BUG (and I'm to broke for goyfs)
EDH:
RGUSurrak Dragon Tribal!RGU
URArjun StormUR
GUEzuri TokensGU
GRBUYidris GoodstuffGRBU
In temur aggro (as in heir of the wilds, knuckles, polukranos, ashclouds and stormbreaths) this card is actually probably even better than ashcloud phoenix. With 4 of these in your deck, you´re able to have both knuckles and him as a turn 4 haster. Even on turn 3 after a rattleclaw, it´s better than ashcloud phoenix. And if you curve out, say t2 heir of the wilds, t3 knuckles, t4 him (this is pretty common, no magical christmasland here guys), he is really good. Like really really good. Your opponent either blocks him (most likely, since at that point few things kill knuckleblade, and heir is the one that deals least damage) or doesn´t. If he/she does, you get a 5/5 and a 3/3 and just keep on playing, and if he doesn´t block, that´s ok too.
The card can get out of hand very quickly, and that´s not to mention if you just land another one once the first gets dealt with. It´s like master of the waves, every single additional copy of this you play (hopefully in sequence) will be just backbreaking. Even if it only hits once, that´s already value in my book, since your opponent is not likely to want to take another hit from this thing, which will likely make him waste resources, tapping out, playing blockers etc, which is kind of what you want, since cards like temur charm and craters claws will make it real tough for your opponent.
The draw card mode is probably not too relevant. As MrSelkies said, is probably not too relevant (and shouldn´t be) early game. It´s most likely going to draw 1 or 2 cards at most per game (if you even activate it).
I´m not going to lie, the fact that he has 2 toughness is a BIG deal. it´s whats going to make the card not as good. The fact that insane cards like the monastary mentor and soulfire grand master etc, have been spoiled, are probably going to make things like magma sprayandmagma jet be played more often, which kind of sucks. Those cards were already good against this deck, and now they´re just gross. Aldo, boon satyr had the problem of being terrible against rhino... this is no different, and that´s sad
Moving forward, i´m going to have to guess, that this deck is going to want to HAVE to have 4 main deck stubborn denial. That is probably the most important card. Not playing threats on curve could actually be more important, since it allows you not to lose tempo in the long run. I would hate to go t4 shaman and just get magma sprayed. Unlike with ashcloud phoenix for example, if i had a t5 shaman with denial backup, i´d actually get to hit with it, as opposed to not hitting with the phoenix
A huge thanks to Argetlam and the guys at Hakai studios for this awesome banner
4x Sylvan Caryatid
3x Rattleclaw Mystic
4x Heir of the Wilds
4x Savage Knuckleblade
3x Fanatic of Xenagos
3x Polukranos, World Eater
4x Stormbreath Dragon
Spells (12)
4x Stubborn Denial
4x Crater's Claws
3x Lightning Strike
1x Temur Charm
1x Temple of Abandon
2x Yavimaya Coast
3x Shivan Reef
3x Temple of Mystery
1x Mana Confluence
1x Temple of Epiphany
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Frontier Bivouac
2x Mountain
2x Forest
2x Stoke the Flames
3x Disdainful Stroke
1x Temur Charm
1x Dig Through Time
3x Back to Nature
2x Force Away
3x Anger of the Gods
Some of my changes:
Fanatic of Xenagos instead of Courser of Kruphix. For starters, it fits the beatdown/tempo theme much better than Courser of Kruphix. In the few games I played with the Kruphix-based list, it felt like I was taking a turn off from what I really wanted to do whenever I casted it. In contrast, Fanatic of Xenagos allows us to keep up pressure and will always make all of the ferocious abilities better for at least 1 turn if not more. Turn 2 Heir of the Wilds into turn 3 Fanatic really puts the pressure on, and lategame you can cast it to make for a guaranteed more mana efficient Crater's Claws (essentially only using 1 more mana for the same effect while also putting a creature on the field). One of the inherent weaknesses of Fanatic of Xenagos is that you'll have players who will pay tribute with the idea of killing it the following turn before it attacks. The difference is that our deck makes up for that weakness with Stubborn Denial, which simply makes this card much better in this shell. Also, with the 7 mana creatures and 23 lands, Courser of Kruphix doesn't provide as much value as it would in the slower, more midrange 24-25 land decks. I still want to test this further, but I'm liking how it feels so far. The only potential issue I see is that this may make us weaker against the super low-slung aggro decks, but with all of our cheap removal and interaction, I think it should be fine.
Removed the maindeck Dig Through Time, Reclamation Sage, Force Away and 1 Temur Charm for 3 Lightning Strike and a 4th Stubborn Denial. Similar to the above change, I feel these changes keep the deck on track for a faster tempo and really apply pressure by taking out early blockers and protecting our fatties. Temur Charm and Dig Through Time have felt really gross at times and I kept finding myself wishing I had more mana efficient ways to mess with my opponent's gameplan. We all know how good Stubborn Denial is (even better now with the addition of Fanatic of Xenagos) so I won't go into much detail there. Lightning Strike just feels like a natural fit for this deck since it takes out the early heroic creatures before they get big, or Sidisi, Goblin Rabblemaster etc. For 2 mana at instant speed, it allows a lot of flexibility at dealing with threats and won't be a dead card like Force Away or Reclamation Sage.
Fitting with the mana efficiency/tempo theme, Back To Nature is now the card of choice for dealing with enchantment based decks. It's instant speed, cheaper and can be a potential blowout against some of the currently relevant decks.
At some point I may try Elvish Mystic once I get some more pain lands, but I'm afraid it will simply make the mana too awkward. The real key of this deck is a turn 2 mana dork or Heir of the Wilds into a meaningful turn 3 play like Savage Knuckleblade, Fanatic of Xenagos or Polukranos, World Eater. Right now it seems to be doing this consistently with minimal mana issues so I'm going to keep it as-is for now. It's also worthy to note that these types of openers (especially on the play) are very effective at busting through Sylvan Caryatid and Courser of Kruphix.
Anyways, that's it for now. I plan on going to a Super IQ this coming weekend and will also be playing games during the week as well, so I'll post back with results and thoughts.
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Savage Knuckleblade
4 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Polukranos, World Eater
//Spells
3 Treasure Cruise
4 Hordeling Outburst
4 Crater's Claws
3 Temur Charm
4 Temple of Abandon
1 Temple of Epiphany
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Yavamaya Coast
1 Shivan Reef
2 Mana Confluence
3 Forest
2 Mountain
4 Anger of the Gods
4 Back to Nature
3 Lightning Strike
2 ???? (Maybe Courser of Kruphix or Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker)
2 Surrak Dragonclaw
Thoughts.
T1 Elvish Mystic, T2 Rabblemaster seems really good.
Four cards in grave and a morphed Rattleclaw makes for an interesting combination with cruise.
With rattleclaw I seem to be hitting 5 mana pretty quickly, perhaps I should put in more five drops? (I had a red green version that used generator servants that featured 4 stormbreaths and 3 Sarkhans, but it felt like it would choke on the top of the curve too often).
Am I running to many spells (that don't create creatures). Should I only be going 4 Crater's Claws (and hordeling outburst)?
I'm not sure if I should be running 3 cruise or 2 Courser and 2 cruise. Does anyone have experience with this?
I'm not sure if some of the Stormbreaths should be Sarkhans.
Right now I have no enchantments. Return to Nature offers the chances for a 2+ for one. Destructive Revelry or Reclamation Sage might be better choices.
Should I maindeck the lightning strikes or the charms?
Should I put some disdainful strokes in the board?
I think I might need one more Polukranos. We're so close to FTR that I'm holding out to see if a better 4 drop is spoiled. I could take out Polukranos for Ashcloud but I worry that I'm opening myself up to Drown in Sorrow. Suggestions on what to cut to add another 4 drop?
Outburst feels like its underperforming. I'm thinking about changing it out after rotation.
I'm worried the the matchup against whip decks is weak and that I have a bunch of painlands without any lifegain.
How many spells do I really need to fuel cruise? One school of thought says that if I don't have a graveyard full of creatures, I've probably won anyway. I'm also worried that the deck might lack sufficient threat density in its current setup.
In testing, Hordeling Outburst feels like it might be underperforming. I'm thinking of cutting it after rotation.
-Benjamin "The Innovator" Franklin
Standard:
Nothing, hate standard after Rhino
Modern:
Looking at Evolution Decks, RUG or [mana]WRG[mana]
Legacy:
Shardless Foundry ('Cause I have a crippling addiction to Shardless Agent) BUG (and I'm to broke for goyfs)
EDH:
RGUSurrak Dragon Tribal!RGU
URArjun StormUR
GUEzuri TokensGU
GRBUYidris GoodstuffGRBU
Burn, like Magma Spray, Magma Jet, and Lightning Strike, cheap counters like Stubborn Denial and Swan Song, or even a card meant to fill up your graveyard, like Taigam's Scheming, will help out on that front.
Do you really need to maximize your yard? Elvish Mystic and Rattleclaw produce the same amount of mana for cruise alive or dead (a plus if your opponent is killing your manadorks). Rabblemaster seems like a fairly cheap way to fill up the graveyard. Either your opponent spends some removal to put it there or the game is ending quickly. Likewise, I think I've seen more Polukranos die to removal than swing.
I've only got to test with cruise at one FNM. Decided to go from 2 courser, 2 cruise to 3 cruise. It seems really nice when you've got five mana on the board, a couple cards in your graveyard and are out of gas. Not as nice as being able to cast it and drop the cards you pull on the next turn, but when you've got one card left in hand, I can think of worst things to have than a cruise.
I will probably be playing some number of Magma Spray or Wild Slash in the main board to get rid of threats like Monastery Mentor and the Soul fire Grandmaster. If other people do the same then it might be worth just moving to a more midrange build to get rid of some of these 2-toughness creatures.
Shaman, Phoenix, and Yasova I want to be good but they all seem a bit too fragile. Still, i want to try them out. The Phoenix has resiliency and evasion so that is the most promising card to me. However it also requires the aggressive build to work properly, so I guess I will have to wait and see how the new meta shapes up.
Which obviously means it will be the top archetype, because I don't know what I'm doing.
A huge thanks to Argetlam and the guys at Hakai studios for this awesome banner
I guess another thing that Strike can do that Wild Slash and Magma Spray can't is take out a Seeker of the Way with Prowess backup. So, I do think there is some merit to playing Lightning Strike instead. However, I expect to see a lot less of that guy with Soulfire Grand Master around.
edit: Oh, it also kills a Monastery Swiftspear that has Prowess backup as well. So there is that to consider. I'm going to start with Wild Claw, I think, and if I hate it I'll switch back or drop it entirely. I used to run Strike but dropped it for Temur Charm.
I beat mardu control, "normal" mardu (although i played incorrectly and almost lost), 2 abzan aggro (one a bit more midrangey) and 4 color whip.
going forward, i´m gonna try something along the lines of:
3 Crater´s Claw
4 Stubborn denial
2 Fall of the hammer
4 Rattleclaw mystic
4 Heir of the wilds
4 Savage knuckleblade
3 Yasova dragonclaw
2 Temur charm
4 Shaman of the great hunt
1 Ashcloud Phoenix
2 Polukranos, world eater
3 Stormbreath dragon
I´m also considering frost walker as a card should be included. It´s basically the 2 drop we needed to compete against abzan agros (insane) 2 drops. Unfortunately, i don´t like the fact that a single rabelmaster token can trump it completely. I´d probably cut the 2 temur charms and something else for 3 or 4 copies. It also clogs up the 2 drop slot (it´s already somewhat tough to know if one should play rattelclaw or heir t2)but it should probably be tested.
A huge thanks to Argetlam and the guys at Hakai studios for this awesome banner
Lightning Strike, really doesn't need any explanation.
Arc Lightning, added utility but at a higher mana cost. On the other hand, if you're going to use two mana for casting a spell their isn't much of a bonus for leaving one open if you don't have a use for it.
Barrage of Boulders, not so much for the one point of damage in most matchups as for the way to clear blocks.
Chandra Pyromaster. Expensive and in most cases will not kill a potential blocker. On the other hand it does have some upsides.
Any ideas?