I doubt that. They are good at killing your things so Denials sometimes don't work. However countering Dig Through is gold.
I learned a great trick today: Morphs block heroes! Save an instant to destroy Aqueous Form and Gods Willing is impotent. Bad news is your Morph dies but good news is you stop 6 points of damage. If you have 4RR, feel free to flip it before damage and have it return as a morph again.
Wow, you are going down in Mana (-1 Land, -4 Elvish Mystic) and go up in Mana Curve (Dragon) Sorry but I dont feel that is right.
In addition, in my games, Elvish Mystic was great. It was either a mana boost for Rabble or Knuckle, or an additional beater for 1.
I run 3 elves and 2 dragons main with 23 land. It is fine. I am not sure why that deck even is running 24 land and 6 dorks when it's curve tops out at only 4 4-drops and 2 boon Satyr that can be bestowed. I just don't like elf against control since it is a bad topdeck. Acceleration is not as good against their sweepers, counters, and removal, and if you are attacking with it you aren't playing spells, and the few damage is rarely relevant. Yeah, turn 2 knuckleblade is strong when you get to untap with it but when they can untapped and s-field or banishing light it it's not as good. For that reason I think having Knuckleblade with Denial backup is better.
I guess looking at the list I see it only has 2 Rattle claw, which is a big difference. I have 4, and they are still good since they ramp, fix, and beat for 2.
I like having access to both Stroke and Denial since we are fast bit not fast enough to get under control and midrange's big stuff. So you have denial for counters and strokes for their sweepers and finishers and Resolute Archangel. I tend to have to get involved in counter wars to protect threats and keep them off finishers against UW especially.
I learned a great trick today: Morphs block heroes! Save an instant to destroy Aqueous Form and Gods Willing is impotent. Bad news is your Morph dies but good news is you stop 6 points of damage. If you have 4RR, feel free to flip it before damage and have it return as a morph again.
The deck feels powerful when you get underneath people but it can't play a defensive game to save it's life. It's great when you have tempo but terrible if they ever have efficient removal for your guys. Cards like Magma Spray are actual nightmares since they're so efficient against a lot of our threats and allow the player to play removal while playing tapped lands or play two spells a turn.
The mana base is also hot garbage but I'll take it.
I really like Temur Charm. The card does everything you want it to do. I'm not sure if I want a third in the board or if I want it maindeck, but another belongs in the 75.
Boon Satyr is meh but does trigger fericious and holds up Temur Charm, which is worth it I suppose.
Surrak Dragonclaw. Yep, don't care for this card. Could be Goblin Rabblemaster or another threat instead. A 4th Stormbreath Dragon or 3rd Polukranos, World Eater?
I understand why Crater's Claws is a good card but why are you guys running 4x of them? It deals with a permanent but if forces you to use much of your turn removing said threat and doesn't work incredibly well with counter magic. I want to see 1 Crater's Claws a game typically -- just for board control (get dem Rhinos outta the way!) -- and don't care for seeing a second unless they're within burn range. Run more threats or more countermagic in place of the 4th Claws IMO.
Well Claws for x=0 or 1 is pretty great and in the early/mid game, dropping a Ferocious creature then doing that is a great way to gain tempo. I usually want to see it once or twice during a game. Once to burn away an early threat and again later to either burn them for game or clear out something I can't fight well with Temur Charm. I've also stopped running Lightning Strike because it feels like I side it out against everything but Jeskai and the increasingly rare other aggro decks, so the 4th Claws is more worthwhile. Since you have Sarkhan for additional removal you probably don't need to value it as highly. Main decked spell package is 4/3/3/ of Claws/Charm/Denial currently.
I mean, it just feels like I frequently get into the situation where I go "I can't get any more damage through but I can Claws for lethal" and that alone makes me want it as a 4 of.
I mean, I don't think I'd say that aggro decks are decreasing -- and that's where Claws is at it's worst since you're using your whole turn removing a creature. Untapping and casting Crater's Claws on a Goblin Rabblemaster doesn't really feel that good considering they can untap and continue the threat presentation with a Sorin or Butcher or whatever 4-drop Jeskai is currently running. Or, y'know, another Rabblemaster.
Against the "tempo" decks like Mardu and Jeskai, I have noticed that going under is usually the way to go and that Crater's Claws doesn't help us go under. They have just as efficent answers to our threats as we do theirs. Given that Crater's Claws is rarely more than x=7 with ferocious, I'd much rather have a board stabilizer or a threat.
Generally speaking, I want my cards to be good regardless of whether I have ferocious or not; Crater's Claws feels like a mana intensive waste when you don't have ferocious which is my reasoning for 3x.
There are, of course, situations where the board has stalled and it's lethal but I find many more situations where I draw too many Crater's Claws and not enough threats.
TL;DR -- Crater's Claws is a great topdeck but clunky when drawn in the opener since you want to be applying pressure before you start to fire off Claws.
Edit: I suppose if you're talking about using Crater's Claws as a 4x of in a Courser style Temur deck it's probably great, but then we're talking about different style decks.
lugger, I tried your version of the deck at first and immediately moved on as soon as someone resolved their first Anger of the Gods against me. It was so devastating.
I mean, I don't think I'd say that aggro decks are decreasing -- and that's where Claws is at it's worst since you're using your whole turn removing a creature. Untapping and casting Crater's Claws on a Goblin Rabblemaster doesn't really feel that good considering they can untap and continue the threat presentation with a Sorin or Butcher or whatever 4-drop Jeskai is currently running. Or, y'know, another Rabblemaster.
Against the "tempo" decks like Mardu and Jeskai, I have noticed that going under is usually the way to go and that Crater's Claws doesn't help us go under. They have just as efficent answers to our threats as we do theirs. Given that Crater's Claws is rarely more than x=7 with ferocious, I'd much rather have a board stabilizer or a threat.
Generally speaking, I want my cards to be good regardless of whether I have ferocious or not; Crater's Claws feels like a mana intensive waste when you don't have ferocious which is my reasoning for 3x.
There are, of course, situations where the board has stalled and it's lethal but I find many more situations where I draw too many Crater's Claws and not enough threats.
TL;DR -- Crater's Claws is a great topdeck but clunky when drawn in the opener since you want to be applying pressure before you start to fire off Claws.
Edit: I suppose if you're talking about using Crater's Claws as a 4x of in a Courser style Temur deck it's probably great, but then we're talking about different style decks.
No, I'm not....Kibler popularized 4x Claws in his list that these aggro versions are based on. You are correct that we want to deploy threats which is why I'I'd never spend the whole turn clawing a guy if I have a threat I can play. You want to play a threat to try to get Claws online so you can do two things next turn. We do want to play a tempo game too. Strike doesn't actually help you there either unless you want to play an elf or hold up your 1-of Denial OR if you do it on their turn instead of developing your own board.
Minor nitpick-Jeskai doesn't play black spells. You are thinking of Mardu. Mardu is typically more midrange/control but they are so versatile that they can also assume the aggro role. Claws is super important here because we have so few good ways to interact with a resolved Butcher of the Horde. Temur Charm rarely is profitable and strike does actual nothing.
And it's just me; in my are it seems like people are moving away from decks strikes are good against like aggro. And even again't some decks like Heroic, strike has been awkward for me. Claws can at least scale up when you need it.
Edit: I don't want to come off as "Kibler played 4 so it must be good" but he did say he was most often using it for x=0. To me that says it is a card that gets better when you are on the beatdown plan since you will already have strong guys out.
lugger, I tried your version of the deck at first and immediately moved on as soon as someone resolved their first Anger of the Gods against me. It was so devastating.
You running into any issues with it?
No. Post-board Anger of the Gods are easy to sniff out. If they have them main deck then fool me once.
Strike doesn't actually help you there either unless you want to play an elf or hold up your 1-of Denial OR if you do it on their turn instead of developing your own board.
Hold up Lightning Strike. Strike their dude (Rabble, two-drop whatever). Untap. Deploy threat. Seems like a good play. Jeskai players do it all the time. I've done it in this deck quite a bit, regardless of whether I'm playing Temur or Gruul.
Minor nitpick-Jeskai doesn't play black spells. You are thinking of Mardu. Mardu is typically more midrange/control but they are so versatile that they can also assume the aggro role. Claws is super important here because we have so few good ways to interact with a resolved Butcher of the Horde. Temur Charm rarely is profitable and strike does actual nothing.
I was referring to both Mardu and Jeskai in my post, since they tend to play the snowball style non-counterspell tempo -- with Rabblemaster and Seeker -- and I was describing threats at 4 that go into both decks.
Temur Charm is mana leak against Mardu -- which is fine if you're on the play.
I like Sarkhan'ing the Butcher (and will typically hold him until I see the Butcher or expensive spell come out of their hand).
Strike is necessary against Mardu since you need to Strike the Rabblemaster or ambush it with Boon Satyr.
I would agree that Crater's Claws is quite good against Butcher of the Horde but redundant Crater's Claws is inefficient and would better be a protected threat.
Edit: I don't want to come off as "Kibler played 4 so it must be good" but he did say he was most often using it for x=0. To me that says it is a card that gets better when you are on the beatdown plan since you will already have strong guys out.
Agree to disagree. I think Claws is a good card. I just don't want to play 4 due to it's inefficient manner. I think the difference between a player who wants to play 4 and 3 is probably minor.
A lot of removal is out there, and I would kill a threat before playing my own. You have a better chance of blanking their next play if you don't put out your threat, whereas if you do play a threat and they kill it, they get a free attack. However, Claws is so awesome it's often not a choice. Knuckleblade for 3 and Claws for 2 dealing 3 is easily possible. My answer to aggro is to replace Lightning Strike with Arc Lightning. It's the perfect answer to Hordeling Outburst, and still deals with Mantis Rider although slower.
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GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWUFree Stuff MidrangeUWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
PaBlItO, can you share your build? I'm looking into putting Temur together but I'd like more baseline for things that work over just throwing stuff together (like I kind of am now).
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Please put the colors of your suggestion in mana symbols prior to your suggestion in color-wheel order. To do this, put any of W, U, B, R, G, and/or C, whatever is applicable, with the word 'mana' inside [square bracets] before and the word '/mana' inside [square bracets] after the mana.
PaBlItO, can you share your build? I'm looking into putting Temur together but I'd like more baseline for things that work over just throwing stuff together (like I kind of am now).
So i spent about an hour and a half writing about the choices of my decklist, just to press some button on the pc and have it close google chrome... not cool. Let´s try this again.
-I think the decks maindecking stubborn denial are the way to go. Countering elspeths, removals, thoughtseizes on turn 1, it´s great. Plus, now with all the mardu running around, it has gotten even more important in my opinion. Sometimes it can just lock up a game and because it´s so cheap, it allows you to keep playing while still having mana up for it (unlike temur charm, most of the time, since it costs 3)
-Surrak should just probably be a dragon. I love the flexibility of this card, flashing it in to block something, flashing it so that heir of the wilds can trample over to kill an elspeth or sarkan. Flashing it in eot against control with a denial backup is the best, countering the downfall (since they keep downfalls in hand against you) then playing an uncounterable knuckleblade with haste (and bounce mana) and hitting for 10. The thing is, your matchup is already really good against control and stormbreath has more protection (plus it has evation, surrak doesn´t)
-Craters claws: You definitely want this card, but most likely not as a 4 of. Kibler´s last take on the deck still plays 4 copies, but he has mentioned it´s possible he could cut it down to 3 copies. Being able to play a big threat and have this in your hand really gives you a good advantage since now you can both remove craetures and still attack + play other threats. It´s also a "pseudo win con", since if your opponents block incorrectly or don´t play around it, you can usually just dome them for 7-8 damage. It also kills elspeth, late in the game when they stabilize (happened to me on friday, topdecked the claws to stay alive).
-Temur Charm: 3 copies is probably too much. Don´t get me wrong, i love this cards. Some times it´s the card that just "wins me the game" and i just need to topdeck. I´ve been in that position and luckly i´ve drawn it and because because of that, i´ve never changed the numbers on it. It helps you win through caryatids, coursers, elspeths, hornet queen tokens, wingmate rocs and the likes (and that is if any one outside courser and caryatid even resolve through it). It´s also great if your opponent doesn´t have the answer for your early knuckleblade or if he or she stumbles a single turn, but 3 mana is expensive though and it´s what i usually side out when i´m on the draw, but that´s also because i don´t know how to sideboard most of the time
-Fall of the hammer. It´s a bad card on it´s own of course. But it´s not "fight" and it´s instant (as opposed to hunt the hunter and savage punch). I was looking for another removal spell and i was pretty pleased with it. The fact that your creatures are mostly bigger than theirs and that you´re playig heir of the wilds makes it so that it´s actually very descent (basically becomes murder with heir). I´ve killed Anafenzas, rhinos, polukranos, dragons, arbor colossus, coursers etc etc, with this card, whereas if it had been say lightning strike, it might not have worked out as fine. The thing is because this is such a tempo oriented deck being able to quickly deal with a threat while having counters or creatures with haste or that are difficult to deal with, becomes important, and that´s why i like this card. Some weeks ago, i had a heir in play and 3 lands, my opponent plays anafenza i eot boon satyr, and untap with fall of the hammer target heir and anafenza and hit for 7 with denial backup, it´s pretty much exactly what i need at that moment. The card is however mediocre against mardu and jeskai (particularly mardu) because of HOW MUCH removal they have, it basically becomes a dead card really early on, so much so, that it´s almost never reliable to kill say a goblin rabblemaster with it, and that´s it´s biggest downside (also, they can kill your creature in response but i still haven´t had that happen to me)
Sideboard is, weird. I should probably change it to something similar to what kibler is playing although i don´t like the chandra´s and nissas that much. Of course it depends on the meta and sideboarding is REALLY REALLY important.
How possible do you guys think it is, now with mardu being everywhere, literally to turn into a control deck post board without compromising the other matchups? Boon satyr and heir are probably disposable in that matchup (which makes rattleclaw draws probably less reliable than before, but hey), and temur is really good at switching geers (with the proper tools of course). The main problem i see is being able to kill both rabblemaster and butcher, survive through all the thoughtseizes, chained to the rocks and crackling dooms, and still win
By the way, on friday i played against a friend round 4, i was 3-0 and he was 2-1. He was playing mardu, and before the match started he said to me "geez i have no idea how to beat you" and i was like "...yeah, you don´t have to do much at all". Game one was something like the following: t2 heir, eot magma jet. Turn 3 knuckleblade, eot crackling doom. Eot 4 boon satyr, lightning stike it. Turn 5 Polukranos, Crakling doom. His turn rabblemaster and game 1 was over. It´s getting really troublesome... that crackling doom.
How possible do you guys think it is, now with mardu being everywhere, literally to turn into a control deck post board without compromising the other matchups? Boon satyr and heir are probably disposable in that matchup (which makes rattleclaw draws probably less reliable than before, but hey), and temur is really good at switching geers (with the proper tools of course). The main problem i see is being able to kill both rabblemaster and butcher, survive through all the thoughtseizes, chained to the rocks and crackling dooms, and still win
By the way, on friday i played against a friend round 4, i was 3-0 and he was 2-1. He was playing mardu, and before the match started he said to me "geez i have no idea how to beat you" and i was like "...yeah, you don´t have to do much at all". Game one was something like the following: t2 heir, eot magma jet. Turn 3 knuckleblade, eot crackling doom. Eot 4 boon satyr, lightning stike it. Turn 5 Polukranos, Crakling doom. His turn rabblemaster and game 1 was over. It´s getting really troublesome... that crackling doom.
Ultimately, the thing to remember against Mardu is that it is at its best exchanging 1-for-1. You can't out-1-for-1 them. You need to get a 2-for-1 from them in order to get the upper hand.
Ashcloud Phoenix and Hornet Nest are the big cards I like against them. While Mardu does have answers for both, they can force Mardu into uncomfortable situations where they either have dead cards or inefficient options. Ashcloud, for example, basically says "Hope you have a Magma Spray/Utter End, or this is gonna take you two cards." Same goes for the Nest, except Utter End/Crackling Doom are the requisite answers there (and you can burn your Nest in response to those). And, of course, you can Stubborn Denial as needed to keep any hard-won advantage that you've managed to garner.
That should work. Anything they try to remove you turn them back for 1. Remove their tokens and attack through with Barrage. Kil Butcher or a walker or them with Crater's Claws. The dubious part of this is playing 4 Ranger's Guile. Clearly it's good here and against UB control, but is it worth 4 spaces that won't get used against other decks? Maybe fewer and more of something else.
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Current Awesome Deck: UWAll-In GiftsWU Consistent, Resiliant, and way overpowered, making multiple 4/4s per turn.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWUFree Stuff MidrangeUWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
I understand the Phoenix love, but no Stormbreath dragons kills me, abzan charm, banishing light, chained to the rocks, siege rhino, butcher of the horde, wingmate roc, white heroic creatures. It blocks so well and punches through so much
I agree with dux. The Dragons are a must in the Mardu matchup. That pro-white is the ultimate finger to their deck. I'll keep all 3 in my deck after boarding.
From my deck... -4 Anger, +2 Ashcloud, +2 Disdainful Stroke
EDIT: Sorry, I took dux's assertion of no Stormbreaths at face value and didn't backread. I'll re-state to say that I would not remove any Dragons against Mardu, and it sounds like you basically have the same tact, lajube.
That should work. Anything they try to remove you turn them back for 1. Remove their tokens and attack through with Barrage. Kil Butcher or a walker or them with Crater's Claws. The dubious part of this is playing 4 Ranger's Guile. Clearly it's good here and against UB control, but is it worth 4 spaces that won't get used against other decks? Maybe fewer and more of something else.
ranger's guile doesnt protect against against Crackling doom, you have to put more pressure on that card so your dragons can survive. Thats why Polukranos is good too, takes the doom with it in play. Bestowing boon saytr on anything also saves dragon. This means you need creatures and your ramp to survive, the reason I think Coursera and caryatid is better over rattleclaw and elves. These guys just get sprayed, jetted and struck.
ranger's guile doesnt protect against against Crackling doom, you have to put more pressure on that card so your dragons can survive. Thats why Polukranos is good too, takes the doom with it in play. Bestowing boon saytr on anything also saves dragon. This means you need creatures and your ramp to survive, the reason I think Coursera and caryatid is better over rattleclaw and elves. These guys just get sprayed, jetted and struck.
You have good points here. I had cut Polukranos so I get to choose which card to sacrifice among the 4-power, but perhaps the better play is to have Polukranos so that one always gets chosen.
Bestowing Boon Satyr on a Mystic is a good idea, and maybe Caryatid is worth considering as it survives everything except Crackling Doom. But actually, how often do you have 5 mana open when they play that card? Or is this done pre-emptively? I'd regret having a 4/7 defender on my team though.
I agree Ranger's Guile is no good against Doom. I propose it because they play about 16 other removal spells, and Guile is fine there, so I can save Stubborn Denial for Crackling Doom or a mean planeswalker.
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Current Awesome Deck: UWAll-In GiftsWU Consistent, Resiliant, and way overpowered, making multiple 4/4s per turn.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWUFree Stuff MidrangeUWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
I absolutely hate both caryatid/courser in this deck. Courser is so low impact and never attacks because you don't want to give up your "draw engine." Its basicly an enchantment that sometimes draws a card and sometimes blocks. I never liked caryatid because it doesn't pressure anything and doesn't play well with anger of the gods.
2 of Kiora's Follower has been really good for me so far. Helps a lot with this deck's color issues (very heavy in the color weight of it's cards), pseudo vigilance, and can pressure early or at least trade.
I don't really consider Crackling Doom an issue. If it were any other removal spell it would still be pointed at your highest power creature. The 2 damage is what matters more. We take a TON of damage from our lands. Any incidental damage really starts to add up quickly.
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Unless the UW player is playing prognostic sphinx, I'm pretty sure stubborn denial is better than disdainful stroke 90% of the time.
I learned a great trick today: Morphs block heroes! Save an instant to destroy Aqueous Form and Gods Willing is impotent. Bad news is your Morph dies but good news is you stop 6 points of damage. If you have 4RR, feel free to flip it before damage and have it return as a morph again.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
I run 3 elves and 2 dragons main with 23 land. It is fine. I am not sure why that deck even is running 24 land and 6 dorks when it's curve tops out at only 4 4-drops and 2 boon Satyr that can be bestowed. I just don't like elf against control since it is a bad topdeck. Acceleration is not as good against their sweepers, counters, and removal, and if you are attacking with it you aren't playing spells, and the few damage is rarely relevant. Yeah, turn 2 knuckleblade is strong when you get to untap with it but when they can untapped and s-field or banishing light it it's not as good. For that reason I think having Knuckleblade with Denial backup is better.
I guess looking at the list I see it only has 2 Rattle claw, which is a big difference. I have 4, and they are still good since they ramp, fix, and beat for 2.
I like having access to both Stroke and Denial since we are fast bit not fast enough to get under control and midrange's big stuff. So you have denial for counters and strokes for their sweepers and finishers and Resolute Archangel. I tend to have to get involved in counter wars to protect threats and keep them off finishers against UW especially.
What was the problem that this solved?
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
4x Rattleclaw Mystic
3x Boon Satyr
4x Heir of the Wilds
4x Savage Knuckleblade
2x Polukranos, World Eater
4x Ashcloud Phoenix
1x Stormbreath Dragon
2x Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
3x Crater's Claws
3x Lightning Strike
1x Stubborn Denial
2x Temur Charm
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Frontier Bivouac
1x Temple of Epiphany
1x Temple of Abandon
4x Yavimaya Coast
2x Shivan Reef
2x Mountain
4x Forest
2x Arc Lightning
2x Magma Spray
2x Stormbreath Dragon
1x Stubborn Denial
1x Surrak, Dragonclaw
2x Destructive Revelry
2x Disdainful Stroke
1x Hunt the Hunter
2x Harness by Force
The deck feels powerful when you get underneath people but it can't play a defensive game to save it's life. It's great when you have tempo but terrible if they ever have efficient removal for your guys. Cards like Magma Spray are actual nightmares since they're so efficient against a lot of our threats and allow the player to play removal while playing tapped lands or play two spells a turn.
The mana base is also hot garbage but I'll take it.
I really like Temur Charm. The card does everything you want it to do. I'm not sure if I want a third in the board or if I want it maindeck, but another belongs in the 75.
Boon Satyr is meh but does trigger fericious and holds up Temur Charm, which is worth it I suppose.
Surrak Dragonclaw. Yep, don't care for this card. Could be Goblin Rabblemaster or another threat instead. A 4th Stormbreath Dragon or 3rd Polukranos, World Eater?
I understand why Crater's Claws is a good card but why are you guys running 4x of them? It deals with a permanent but if forces you to use much of your turn removing said threat and doesn't work incredibly well with counter magic. I want to see 1 Crater's Claws a game typically -- just for board control (get dem Rhinos outta the way!) -- and don't care for seeing a second unless they're within burn range. Run more threats or more countermagic in place of the 4th Claws IMO.
I mean, it just feels like I frequently get into the situation where I go "I can't get any more damage through but I can Claws for lethal" and that alone makes me want it as a 4 of.
Against the "tempo" decks like Mardu and Jeskai, I have noticed that going under is usually the way to go and that Crater's Claws doesn't help us go under. They have just as efficent answers to our threats as we do theirs. Given that Crater's Claws is rarely more than x=7 with ferocious, I'd much rather have a board stabilizer or a threat.
Generally speaking, I want my cards to be good regardless of whether I have ferocious or not; Crater's Claws feels like a mana intensive waste when you don't have ferocious which is my reasoning for 3x.
There are, of course, situations where the board has stalled and it's lethal but I find many more situations where I draw too many Crater's Claws and not enough threats.
TL;DR -- Crater's Claws is a great topdeck but clunky when drawn in the opener since you want to be applying pressure before you start to fire off Claws.
Edit: I suppose if you're talking about using Crater's Claws as a 4x of in a Courser style Temur deck it's probably great, but then we're talking about different style decks.
You running into any issues with it?
No, I'm not....Kibler popularized 4x Claws in his list that these aggro versions are based on. You are correct that we want to deploy threats which is why I'I'd never spend the whole turn clawing a guy if I have a threat I can play. You want to play a threat to try to get Claws online so you can do two things next turn. We do want to play a tempo game too. Strike doesn't actually help you there either unless you want to play an elf or hold up your 1-of Denial OR if you do it on their turn instead of developing your own board.
Minor nitpick-Jeskai doesn't play black spells. You are thinking of Mardu. Mardu is typically more midrange/control but they are so versatile that they can also assume the aggro role. Claws is super important here because we have so few good ways to interact with a resolved Butcher of the Horde. Temur Charm rarely is profitable and strike does actual nothing.
And it's just me; in my are it seems like people are moving away from decks strikes are good against like aggro. And even again't some decks like Heroic, strike has been awkward for me. Claws can at least scale up when you need it.
Edit: I don't want to come off as "Kibler played 4 so it must be good" but he did say he was most often using it for x=0. To me that says it is a card that gets better when you are on the beatdown plan since you will already have strong guys out.
No. Post-board Anger of the Gods are easy to sniff out. If they have them main deck then fool me once.
Hold up Lightning Strike. Strike their dude (Rabble, two-drop whatever). Untap. Deploy threat. Seems like a good play. Jeskai players do it all the time. I've done it in this deck quite a bit, regardless of whether I'm playing Temur or Gruul.
I was referring to both Mardu and Jeskai in my post, since they tend to play the snowball style non-counterspell tempo -- with Rabblemaster and Seeker -- and I was describing threats at 4 that go into both decks.
Temur Charm is mana leak against Mardu -- which is fine if you're on the play.
I like Sarkhan'ing the Butcher (and will typically hold him until I see the Butcher or expensive spell come out of their hand).
Strike is necessary against Mardu since you need to Strike the Rabblemaster or ambush it with Boon Satyr.
I would agree that Crater's Claws is quite good against Butcher of the Horde but redundant Crater's Claws is inefficient and would better be a protected threat.
Agree to disagree. I think Claws is a good card. I just don't want to play 4 due to it's inefficient manner. I think the difference between a player who wants to play 4 and 3 is probably minor.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
Please put the colors of your suggestion in mana symbols prior to your suggestion in color-wheel order. To do this, put any of W, U, B, R, G, and/or C, whatever is applicable, with the word 'mana' inside [square bracets] before and the word '/mana' inside [square bracets] after the mana.
Freezing Point EDH series #1 (click through the other articles too!)
So i spent about an hour and a half writing about the choices of my decklist, just to press some button on the pc and have it close google chrome... not cool. Let´s try this again.
4 Heir of the wilds
4 Savage Knuckleblade
4 Boon Satyr
3 Polukranos, World Eater
3 Ashcloud phoenix
2 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Surrak Dragonclaw
3 Crater's Claw
3 Temur Charm
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Fall of the hammer
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Frontier Bivouac
3 Temple of Abandon
2 Temple of mystery
4 Yamivaya Coast
2 Shivan Reef
3 Mountain
3 Forest
3 Disdainful Stroke
3 Hunt the hunter
2 Hornet Nest
2 Magma Spray
2 Back to Nature
So, some things about the numbers and choices:
-I think the decks maindecking stubborn denial are the way to go. Countering elspeths, removals, thoughtseizes on turn 1, it´s great. Plus, now with all the mardu running around, it has gotten even more important in my opinion. Sometimes it can just lock up a game and because it´s so cheap, it allows you to keep playing while still having mana up for it (unlike temur charm, most of the time, since it costs 3)
-Surrak should just probably be a dragon. I love the flexibility of this card, flashing it in to block something, flashing it so that heir of the wilds can trample over to kill an elspeth or sarkan. Flashing it in eot against control with a denial backup is the best, countering the downfall (since they keep downfalls in hand against you) then playing an uncounterable knuckleblade with haste (and bounce mana) and hitting for 10. The thing is, your matchup is already really good against control and stormbreath has more protection (plus it has evation, surrak doesn´t)
-Craters claws: You definitely want this card, but most likely not as a 4 of. Kibler´s last take on the deck still plays 4 copies, but he has mentioned it´s possible he could cut it down to 3 copies. Being able to play a big threat and have this in your hand really gives you a good advantage since now you can both remove craetures and still attack + play other threats. It´s also a "pseudo win con", since if your opponents block incorrectly or don´t play around it, you can usually just dome them for 7-8 damage. It also kills elspeth, late in the game when they stabilize (happened to me on friday, topdecked the claws to stay alive).
-Temur Charm: 3 copies is probably too much. Don´t get me wrong, i love this cards. Some times it´s the card that just "wins me the game" and i just need to topdeck. I´ve been in that position and luckly i´ve drawn it and because because of that, i´ve never changed the numbers on it. It helps you win through caryatids, coursers, elspeths, hornet queen tokens, wingmate rocs and the likes (and that is if any one outside courser and caryatid even resolve through it). It´s also great if your opponent doesn´t have the answer for your early knuckleblade or if he or she stumbles a single turn, but 3 mana is expensive though and it´s what i usually side out when i´m on the draw, but that´s also because i don´t know how to sideboard most of the time
-Fall of the hammer. It´s a bad card on it´s own of course. But it´s not "fight" and it´s instant (as opposed to hunt the hunter and savage punch). I was looking for another removal spell and i was pretty pleased with it. The fact that your creatures are mostly bigger than theirs and that you´re playig heir of the wilds makes it so that it´s actually very descent (basically becomes murder with heir). I´ve killed Anafenzas, rhinos, polukranos, dragons, arbor colossus, coursers etc etc, with this card, whereas if it had been say lightning strike, it might not have worked out as fine. The thing is because this is such a tempo oriented deck being able to quickly deal with a threat while having counters or creatures with haste or that are difficult to deal with, becomes important, and that´s why i like this card. Some weeks ago, i had a heir in play and 3 lands, my opponent plays anafenza i eot boon satyr, and untap with fall of the hammer target heir and anafenza and hit for 7 with denial backup, it´s pretty much exactly what i need at that moment. The card is however mediocre against mardu and jeskai (particularly mardu) because of HOW MUCH removal they have, it basically becomes a dead card really early on, so much so, that it´s almost never reliable to kill say a goblin rabblemaster with it, and that´s it´s biggest downside (also, they can kill your creature in response but i still haven´t had that happen to me)
Sideboard is, weird. I should probably change it to something similar to what kibler is playing although i don´t like the chandra´s and nissas that much. Of course it depends on the meta and sideboarding is REALLY REALLY important.
How possible do you guys think it is, now with mardu being everywhere, literally to turn into a control deck post board without compromising the other matchups? Boon satyr and heir are probably disposable in that matchup (which makes rattleclaw draws probably less reliable than before, but hey), and temur is really good at switching geers (with the proper tools of course). The main problem i see is being able to kill both rabblemaster and butcher, survive through all the thoughtseizes, chained to the rocks and crackling dooms, and still win
By the way, on friday i played against a friend round 4, i was 3-0 and he was 2-1. He was playing mardu, and before the match started he said to me "geez i have no idea how to beat you" and i was like "...yeah, you don´t have to do much at all". Game one was something like the following: t2 heir, eot magma jet. Turn 3 knuckleblade, eot crackling doom. Eot 4 boon satyr, lightning stike it. Turn 5 Polukranos, Crakling doom. His turn rabblemaster and game 1 was over. It´s getting really troublesome... that crackling doom.
A huge thanks to Argetlam and the guys at Hakai studios for this awesome banner
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
Ultimately, the thing to remember against Mardu is that it is at its best exchanging 1-for-1. You can't out-1-for-1 them. You need to get a 2-for-1 from them in order to get the upper hand.
Ashcloud Phoenix and Hornet Nest are the big cards I like against them. While Mardu does have answers for both, they can force Mardu into uncomfortable situations where they either have dead cards or inefficient options. Ashcloud, for example, basically says "Hope you have a Magma Spray/Utter End, or this is gonna take you two cards." Same goes for the Nest, except Utter End/Crackling Doom are the requisite answers there (and you can burn your Nest in response to those). And, of course, you can Stubborn Denial as needed to keep any hard-won advantage that you've managed to garner.
War of attrition. Gotta play it better than them.
4x Ashcloud Phoenix
2x Boon Satyr
3x Courser of Kruphix
4x Heir of the Wilds
4x Rattleclaw Mystic
4x Savage Knuckleblade
2x Stormbreath Dragon
1x Sagu Mauler
4x Ranger's Guile
4x Stubborn Denial
Land (22)
2x Forest
4x Frontier Bivouac
1x Mana Confluence
2x Mountain
3x Shivan Reef
1x Temple of Abandon
1x Temple of Mystery
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Yavimaya Coast
2x Barrage of Boulders
4x Crater's Claws
That should work. Anything they try to remove you turn them back for 1. Remove their tokens and attack through with Barrage. Kil Butcher or a walker or them with Crater's Claws. The dubious part of this is playing 4 Ranger's Guile. Clearly it's good here and against UB control, but is it worth 4 spaces that won't get used against other decks? Maybe fewer and more of something else.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
From my deck... -4 Anger, +2 Ashcloud, +2 Disdainful Stroke
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Yavimaya Coast
3 Frontier Bivouac
2 Mana Confluence
3 Shivan Reef
4 Forest
3 Mountain
1 Island
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Savage Knuckleblade
3 Boon Satyr
3 Courser of Kruphix
2 Hornet Nest
2 Ashcloud Phoenix
3 Polukranos, World Eater
3 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Stubborn Denial
2 Disdainful Stroke
3 Lightning Strike
3 Crater's Claws
EDIT: Sorry, I took dux's assertion of no Stormbreaths at face value and didn't backread. I'll re-state to say that I would not remove any Dragons against Mardu, and it sounds like you basically have the same tact, lajube.
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Savage Knuckleblade
2 Ashcloud Phoenix
3 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Surrak Dragonclaw
Spells
3 Stubborn Denial
3 Lightning Strike
3 Crater's Claws
1 Temur Charm
1 Temur Ascendancy
4 Frontier Bivouac
4 Yavimaya Coast
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Shivan Reef
2 Temple of Abandon
2 Temple of Mystery
3 Forest
3 Mountain
1 Stubborn Denial
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Magma Spray
4 Anger of the Gods
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
3 Disdainful Stroke
2 Savage Punch
This reminds me of Frank Lepore's Temur Superfriends list from early, early on in the format. As far as the creatures go.
ranger's guile doesnt protect against against Crackling doom, you have to put more pressure on that card so your dragons can survive. Thats why Polukranos is good too, takes the doom with it in play. Bestowing boon saytr on anything also saves dragon. This means you need creatures and your ramp to survive, the reason I think Coursera and caryatid is better over rattleclaw and elves. These guys just get sprayed, jetted and struck.
In Frye's profile he said he would -1 ascendency, +1 T.Charm
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You have good points here. I had cut Polukranos so I get to choose which card to sacrifice among the 4-power, but perhaps the better play is to have Polukranos so that one always gets chosen.
Bestowing Boon Satyr on a Mystic is a good idea, and maybe Caryatid is worth considering as it survives everything except Crackling Doom. But actually, how often do you have 5 mana open when they play that card? Or is this done pre-emptively? I'd regret having a 4/7 defender on my team though.
I agree Ranger's Guile is no good against Doom. I propose it because they play about 16 other removal spells, and Guile is fine there, so I can save Stubborn Denial for Crackling Doom or a mean planeswalker.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
2 of Kiora's Follower has been really good for me so far. Helps a lot with this deck's color issues (very heavy in the color weight of it's cards), pseudo vigilance, and can pressure early or at least trade.
I don't really consider Crackling Doom an issue. If it were any other removal spell it would still be pointed at your highest power creature. The 2 damage is what matters more. We take a TON of damage from our lands. Any incidental damage really starts to add up quickly.