So I won tcgplayer standard states today with bug control. I went 4-0-1 in swiss and top 8 scooped to me. I will post a decklist and breakdown when I am not on my phone. I get that 350 dollar travel voucher for the max point championships. Woot!
So I won tcgplayer standard states today with bug control. I went 4-0-1 in swiss and top 8 scooped to me. I will post a decklist and breakdown when I am not on my phone. I get that 350 dollar travel voucher for the max point championships. Woot!
Congrats! Hope to see your report and decklist soon. I have been testing a few different builds, but I would like to see what holds up best against the current standard meta (as in flux as it is currently).
Also, anyone running Empty the Pits? Before I have had some good results with it, but wondering if anyone else has been seeing something similar. Not sure if Dig Through Time just cannibalizes the delve spot and is ultimately better.
So I won tcgplayer standard states today with bug control. I went 4-0-1 in swiss and top 8 scooped to me. I will post a decklist and breakdown when I am not on my phone. I get that 350 dollar travel voucher for the max point championships. Woot!
Any ETA on the list? Curious to see it before I go to bed since I have a tournament tomorrow.
I knew this matchup was a bit difficult as it basically is whoever lands the first planeswalker wins. Game 1 he landed Ashiok T3, I couldnt find Hero's Downfall quick enough and he followed with Jace AND Elspeth. Game 2 same thing, my Ashiok ate Banishing Light and that was it
Match 2 - Delve BUG (1-1)
My opponent got a game loss because of some sideboard issues so I had the edge. G2 basically was just Sidisi putting zombies and couldnt find an answer for that. Game 3 I sided in Extinguish all hope and Drown in sorrow but Ashiok T3 protected by countermagic and followed by Kiora was more than enough to seal the deal.
Matc 3 - Jeskai Tempo (2-1)
Ashiok ate some burn, then Kiora ate some burn and seemed like my opponent was running out of was, then Prognostic Sphinx hit the board, that stopped the Mantis on its tracks and little by little Courser gained me a little bit of life. The next game was the same, a lot of burn had to hit the walkers to keep the from gaining ground and Prognostic stopped the Mantis on the air until I got Bile Blight and got rid of them.
Match 4 - RW Heroic (3-1)
My opponent got stuck on 1 land until I played 2 Caryatids and 2 Coursers, that was it. Game 2 it was a bit too fast for me and couldnt find removal, even after siding in an extra Cut, 2 Drown in Sorrow and all my Despises hoping I could hit creatures on T1. Game 3 was easier, as I casted Despise, followed by Caryatid, then it was just matter of removing any creature, eventually he ran out of gas and Kiora closed the deal.
Match 5 - GR Monsters (4-1)
My opponent had to mull to 5 so there wasnt much action as I casted T3 Ashiok and we went to G2. Game 2 I didnt gent any lands so I conceded and went to G3. Everything was going back forth with Caryatids and Coursers on both sides, Kiora on my and Xenagos on his. The board got pretty cluttered and he had to swing as he already knew I had Aetherspouts. After wards he casted Genesis Hydra to which I replied on my turn with Extinguish all hope turning the tides and he conceded shortly afterwards.
Match 6 - Golgari Control (4-1-1)
We went to time as everything was just back and forth. G1 I managed to resolve an Ashiok T3 with which I managed to activate no less than 8 times and the best creature I got was a Courser... and he managed to cast Genesis Hydra, Arbor Colossus and Nylea to kill me off. G2 Kiora T3 sticked around and I was able to ultimate her. He cluttered the board with a lot of creatures and another Genesis Hydra+Colossus that died to a Extinguish all hope, the krakens took the game.
G3 was just a matter to survive as I knew with the draw I had a guaranteed Top 8 so I kept a hand full of removal and counters to ensure I would survive long enogh.
Top 8 - Abzan Midrange
Game 1 was awful, between getting hit by Fleecemane Lion and some fetch/Thoughtseize/painlands for removal, I put myself to 10 life....he played his 4 Rhinos and that killed me, even after casting Dig Through Time twice and digging 4 cards I couldnt find counterspells. No Despise/Thoughtseize/Counters again, just Caryatids and Coursers, so that means triple Rhino took the cake home.
It was a great experience and definitely I learned a lot from all my matches.
-Playing with suboptimal lists suck, as I found myself wanting a 4th Courser/Downfall all the time.
-Nissa was REALLY underwhelming, I had to side her out on all my matches and couldnt cast her at all when I drew her, I'll definitely be playing a 3rd Ashiok.
-Extinguish All Hope is legit. That card all by itself gave me the win in at least 3 matches, if you meta has a lot of Green based decks, please do yourself a favor and give it a try.
-Not even once I sided in Garruk or felt the need of playing him, 7 mana was just too much and he didnt dealt with the board as fast as I would have liked.
-I've been playing Gandalf Sphinx since it came out and Ive never liked it was much as I like it now. It just laughs at Sarkhan and Mantis, which is a REALLY big deal on the Jeskai Matchup.
For GP LA I might play the same deck but with this small changes:
-1x Nissa
-1x Bile Blight
-1x Dissolve
+1 Ashiok
+1 Hero's Downfall
+1 Courser of Kruphix
Hmm I suppose villainous wealth could dodge a disdainful stroke because of its CMC? lol
I believe you declare what X is and X is part of the cost while it is on the stack.
So Mistcutter Hydra for 5 is CMC 6 on the stack and when it resolves the CMC is 1.
99.9% certain the CMC on X spells never consider X regardless of if its on the stack or not. As far as I'm aware xBUG is always a CMC of 3 regardless of where it is in play.
*EDIT* You do declare X as you cast it, but again that isn't a part of the CMC.
117.8d Additional costs don’t change a spell’s mana cost, only what its controller has to pay to cast it. Spells and abilities that ask for that spell’s mana cost still see the original value.
117.9c An alternative cost doesn’t change a spell’s mana cost, only what its controller has to pay to cast it. Spells and abilities that ask for that spell’s mana cost still see the original value.
202.3. The converted mana cost of an object is a number equal to the total amount of mana in its mana cost, regardless of color.
Hmm I suppose villainous wealth could dodge a disdainful stroke because of its CMC? lol
I believe you declare what X is and X is part of the cost while it is on the stack.
So Mistcutter Hydra for 5 is CMC 6 on the stack and when it resolves the CMC is 1.
99.9% certain the CMC on X spells never consider X regardless of if its on the stack or not. As far as I'm aware xBUG is always a CMC of 3 regardless of where it is in play.
*EDIT* You do declare X as you cast it, but again that isn't a part of the CMC.
117.8d Additional costs don’t change a spell’s mana cost, only what its controller has to pay to cast it. Spells and abilities that ask for that spell’s mana cost still see the original value.
117.9c An alternative cost doesn’t change a spell’s mana cost, only what its controller has to pay to cast it. Spells and abilities that ask for that spell’s mana cost still see the original value.
202.3. The converted mana cost of an object is a number equal to the total amount of mana in its mana cost, regardless of color.
Looks like I might be wrong.
If a cost has an "{X}" in it, the value of X must be announced as part of playing the spell or ability.
(See rule 409, "Playing Spells and Activated Abilities.") While the spell or ability is on the stack, the {X} in its mana cost equals the amount announced as part of playing the spell or ability. If a card in any other zone has {X} in its mana cost, the amount is treated as 0. If you're playing a spell that has {X} in its mana cost and an effect lets you play it without paying any cost that includes X, the only legal choice for X is 0. This does not apply to effects that only reduce a cost, even if they reduce it to zero. See rule 409, "Playing Spells and Activated Abilities."
In triggered abilities, X is defined when the ability resolves. It may be defined by the text of the ability, by a keyword ability of the card, or by the trigger event. See rule 410, "Handling Triggered Abilities."
In other cases, X is defined by the text of a spell or ability. If X isn't defined, the controller of the spell or ability chooses the value of X. All Xs on an object have the same value.
So the bold mentions while it's on the stack and the underline is any other time. Oh man gonna start disdainful stroking my buddies Genesis Hydra's now!
Can we have a brief discussion on Sultai Charm. I can't talk myself into playing this, so I'm hoping some of you can do it for me. I thought all the charms from RTR were pretty blah when I first saw them too...until I started playing with them. All options on charms tend to have flaws/drawbacks, but their flexibility typically makes up for it over a broader number of matches.
So what I hate about this card...and why I think I need to get over it.
1)It costs THREE CMC. We already have Downfall at THREE CMC. We need more T1 and T2 plays!!!
---FIX - Don't run 4 of these and cut something else at higher mana to keep some T1/T2 plays in the deck.
2)It doesn't hit any of the multi colored wedge cards.
---FIX - Not everything is perfect and we have Hero's Downfall for that and ideally Thoughtseize to snag those cards before they hit the battlefield. I've been on the Bile Blight
3)It doesn't hit the Gods...lets be honest it doesn't hit Nylea, God of the Hunt
---FIX - Unravel the Æther is fantastic here. I've been running it in the main, but one of my primary opponents runs Green Devotion, and another runs a UR Artifacts deck and Unravel is better against Scuttling Doom Engine. I think this should probably be in the side, but I feel like cutting one of the Sultai Charm's for an Unravel...tell me why I shouldn't do this.
4)Three mana for 2 cards and a discard. It's strictly worse than Divination.
---FIX - Get over it. Divination doesn't have two permanent removal options available with it.
Please somebody tell me why I am over thinking this. I feel like I NEED to be playing Sultai Charm but my brain is getting in my way.
*EDIT* I think my biggest problem is when my opponent gets out to a fast start and I'm sitting on a T3 Sultai Charm that can't get the job done and I have nothing else playable in hand and so I have to draw 2/discard 1 only to lose the game the following turn or two without putting up a fight. It just feels so bad right there.
Liliana Vess - I love me some Liliana. I think the right thing is to have 1 in the main, and a second in the side. A lot of people feel like she should only be brought in from the side against control, but I've found she is great an minimizing your opponents hand size in all match ups which makes every one of our removal spells that much better. In aggro matchups I could see pulling her for something like a Pharika's Cure.
Thoughtseize - Why are so many people running only 3? We have so few T1 and T2 plays, even if you include playing tapped lands, that getting one of these in our opening hand is extremely vital. Also, yes it does cost us 2 life, and on occasion 3 off a Llanowar Waste of Polluted Delta, but keep in mind we're spending 2 life to save ourselves more life than that. If I take a Monastery Swiftspear T1 on the play I am almost certainly saving myself a minumum of 3 life by snagging it. That is a simple example. There are so many other times where the card you get almost single-handedly delays your opponent enough to win the game. I can't see a world where we don't run 4 here.
Kiora, The Crashing Wave - I understand with 68+% of the meta on Green based decks she is less than ideal. What are we playing in place of her? Or are we just commiserating because she can be so good but we're in a meta where she isn't?
Villainous Wealth - Sounds terrible in this deck. Sounds great in a Green devotion deck that somehow splashes the other colors. Games I have won with this deck are won around 7 mana on the board. That would only get us 4 cards on average of which 2 are land, 1 is going to be less than 4 mana...2 if we're lucky. Sometimes it will be awesome...for me all those sometimes will be in commander.
Empty the Pits - Could be a pretty good card for us...if we could guarantee our end step cast gave us enough Zombies to win. However, Dig Through Time is to important in this deck to save graveyard cards for Empty the Pits so it just isn't going to work.
Despise - Another good sideboard card here. Sometimes offense is the best defense, and attacking their threats before they can cast them is worth it. Effective TSeize 5+ in the matches we need them...especially against builds like Green Devotion that don't beat us down with their mana dorks.
Drown in Sorrow - Almost has to be mainboarded as a 2 of in our deck. We play so few 1 and 2 drops, that in those aggro decks that get out ahead of us the quasi board wipe gives us a chance to get from 3 to 5 mana where we can start to turn the game...and it doesn't knock out our Sylvan Caryatid
Prognostic Sphinx - I just finally started playing with this. I started with Polukranos, World Eater in more of a BG Rock build, then moved to Reaper of the Wilds which I liked, but man, the scry 3 and outlet to toss lands late game to make it hexproof is so powerful when it is on. The ability to toss a card to keep it alive the turn it was cast is excellent. The 3 power versus Reaper/Polukranos has its positives and negatives, but I'm starting to believe this is where we want to be at.
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver - It wins games...or it's terrible, but even when it's terrible it gives you information from your opponent...most of the time it at the very least gives your opponents something other than you to attack which gives you time to bring out your big guns.
Ætherspouts - Another card that could warrant its own discussion. Can be absolutely brutal on your opponent. Becomes worse once they've seen it...especially if they see it off the top of a Courser of Kruphix. Even then it helps cause your opponent to delay, but at 5 mana somewhat expensive for a tempo play...super tempo play as it can be. I personally feel this is probably better left out of the heavy walker builds, and at best brought in out of the side in place of Garruk, Liliana, maybe a Kiora. On the more heavy control, fewer "win con" builds it is probably very good and necessary.
Okay I'm done for now. Time to listen to your opinions...my build at the moment.
Sultai Charm I am not very pleased with it to be honest, with the Abzan/Mardu/jeskai builds placing on top it doesnt hit anything, its basically 3 cmc draw 2 discard 1. I'll might even cut it to 2 because in some matchups (I would say %75) I sided some copies out
Liliana Vess - Personally I still prefer just one and SB. The deck doesnt pack any silver bullets maindeck that require to her main to fetch them, if you are facing Jeskai/Abzan/Mardu she doesnt do anything but ive you a removal spell to an already cluttered board and most probably she'll die a turn later, or at least thats what experience has taught me.
Thoughtseize - The reason why people are afraid of running 4 is because decks like Jeskai Tempo (and some RW heroic brews) is getting more popular and losing 2 life on your turn is already putting them ahead. You'll see the 4th Thoughtseize on the board after you are certain you arent facing burn/aggro decks.
Kiora, The Crashing Wave - Depends. I still run two of her and she was always a threat, in fact I ultimated her 3 times in 6 rounds. If you can have a Courser/Caryatid has a back up blocker and a removal in hand she's deadly.
Villainous Wealth - It has to be a specific deck built for this card, so far from all the lists Ive seen on this primer I dont see it fitting in any of them.
Empty the Pits - Dig Through Time was one of he MVPs for me, same with Murderous Cut. You'll most likely deplete your yard with those two than with Pits. Pits wont bring you back on the game if you are behind while Cut or Dig could be answers to some threats on the field or help you dig for them.
Dark Betrayal - I had a copy for the same reasons that you just mentioned, sadly enough I didnt faced any Mardu deck and never saw it against Abzan. I could give it another chance but its very situational.
Despise - Despise is great on a meta with a lot of Midrange decks. Its great against Mardu, GR Devotion, Abzan, Junk... simply any creature based deck, most lists have it on SB.
Drown in Sorrow - Rarely felt the need of playing it, maybe because I didnt faced any aggro decks. I understand its a need and you have to have at least 2 but 4 is a bit overkill, it doesnt kill Mantis/Rhino/Butcher/Courser...which are our priority in all the non-agro matchups.
Prognostic Sphinx -Stops Mantis/Sarkhan/Courser/Rhino and its a finisher if left unchecked.
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver - Best card in the deck in my opinion, seriously. With so many creature based decks these days you'll most likely steal a 3-4 drop, and most likely you'll have a Courser/Caryatid/removal to serve as backup to make sure he stays alive.
I knew this matchup was a bit difficult as it basically is whoever lands the first planeswalker wins. Game 1 he landed Ashiok T3, I couldnt find Hero's Downfall quick enough and he followed with Jace AND Elspeth. Game 2 same thing, my Ashiok ate Banishing Light and that was it
Match 2 - Delve BUG (1-1)
My opponent got a game loss because of some sideboard issues so I had the edge. G2 basically was just Sidisi putting zombies and couldnt find an answer for that. Game 3 I sided in Extinguish all hope and Drown in sorrow but Ashiok T3 protected by countermagic and followed by Kiora was more than enough to seal the deal.
Matc 3 - Jeskai Tempo (2-1)
Ashiok ate some burn, then Kiora ate some burn and seemed like my opponent was running out of was, then Prognostic Sphinx hit the board, that stopped the Mantis on its tracks and little by little Courser gained me a little bit of life. The next game was the same, a lot of burn had to hit the walkers to keep the from gaining ground and Prognostic stopped the Mantis on the air until I got Bile Blight and got rid of them.
Match 4 - RW Heroic (3-1)
My opponent got stuck on 1 land until I played 2 Caryatids and 2 Coursers, that was it. Game 2 it was a bit too fast for me and couldnt find removal, even after siding in an extra Cut, 2 Drown in Sorrow and all my Despises hoping I could hit creatures on T1. Game 3 was easier, as I casted Despise, followed by Caryatid, then it was just matter of removing any creature, eventually he ran out of gas and Kiora closed the deal.
Match 5 - GR Monsters (4-1)
My opponent had to mull to 5 so there wasnt much action as I casted T3 Ashiok and we went to G2. Game 2 I didnt gent any lands so I conceded and went to G3. Everything was going back forth with Caryatids and Coursers on both sides, Kiora on my and Xenagos on his. The board got pretty cluttered and he had to swing as he already knew I had Aetherspouts. After wards he casted Genesis Hydra to which I replied on my turn with Extinguish all hope turning the tides and he conceded shortly afterwards.
Match 6 - Golgari Control (4-1-1)
We went to time as everything was just back and forth. G1 I managed to resolve an Ashiok T3 with which I managed to activate no less than 8 times and the best creature I got was a Courser... and he managed to cast Genesis Hydra, Arbor Colossus and Nylea to kill me off. G2 Kiora T3 sticked around and I was able to ultimate her. He cluttered the board with a lot of creatures and another Genesis Hydra+Colossus that died to a Extinguish all hope, the krakens took the game.
G3 was just a matter to survive as I knew with the draw I had a guaranteed Top 8 so I kept a hand full of removal and counters to ensure I would survive long enogh.
Top 8 - Abzan Midrange
Game 1 was awful, between getting hit by Fleecemane Lion and some fetch/Thoughtseize/painlands for removal, I put myself to 10 life....he played his 4 Rhinos and that killed me, even after casting Dig Through Time twice and digging 4 cards I couldnt find counterspells. No Despise/Thoughtseize/Counters again, just Caryatids and Coursers, so that means triple Rhino took the cake home.
It was a great experience and definitely I learned a lot from all my matches.
-Playing with suboptimal lists suck, as I found myself wanting a 4th Courser/Downfall all the time.
-Nissa was REALLY underwhelming, I had to side her out on all my matches and couldnt cast her at all when I drew her, I'll definitely be playing a 3rd Ashiok.
-Extinguish All Hope is legit. That card all by itself gave me the win in at least 3 matches, if you meta has a lot of Green based decks, please do yourself a favor and give it a try.
-Not even once I sided in Garruk or felt the need of playing him, 7 mana was just too much and he didnt dealt with the board as fast as I would have liked.
-I've been playing Gandalf Sphinx since it came out and Ive never liked it was much as I like it now. It just laughs at Sarkhan and Mantis, which is a REALLY big deal on the Jeskai Matchup.
For GP LA I might play the same deck but with this small changes:
-1x Nissa
-1x Bile Blight
-1x Dissolve
+1 Ashiok
+1 Hero's Downfall
+1 Courser of Kruphix
I like the direction you're going, but your disruption count is 8 (listed as 6) which makes your deck 62 cards total. Did you actually run 62, or is your list a little off?
I like the direction you're going, but your disruption count is 8 (listed as 6) which makes your deck 62 cards total. Did you actually run 62, or is your list a little off?
61, sorry! I had hat problem, ended up making a mess in my registration sheet lol
So I attended another GPT last night just to see if I could skate winning a box and see if I could settle on some the the changes I have been wanting to make before the IQ. After losing round one by punting allowing a Boon Satyr to resolve, I was paired against a team member in round 3. He needed the byes for GP LA and since I just picked mine up, I opted to give him the match and call it a night to go home and decide on my list before the IQ.
Sultai Charm is one of the best cards in the deck. The Disenchant mode is surprisingly relevant a fair amount of the time and there is no shortage of mono-colored creatures - especially in our tougher matches against Devotion. The price of BGU really is not that bad, even if we are stacked on the 3 CMC slots. Having access to Catalog allows us to filter our draws a bit more and dig deeper to help keep ourselves from falling behind or allow us to maximize our main phase plays. The card is never dead.
Kiora, the Crashing Wave got the axe. I don't get what people are liking about this card. As someone who has been deep in Sultai since before rotation, I am familiar with what she does, when she does it, and how she does it... but the format is pretty different than where things were are before KTK and even how they were in block. Decks are too efficient with their mana these days and you don't come across clear board states where Blood Baron of Vizkopa, Stormbreath Dragon, or Desecration Demon are the only big threats you have to stare down. Cards like Genesis Hydra and Nissa, Worldwaker maker her +1 a lot less relevant because they just go around her ability far too often. This is further compounded by splash variants running Stormbreath Dragon, and Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker. Wingmate Roc, Goblin Rabblemaster, Mantis Rider, and all of the burn spells are yet more cards that allow decks to just bypass her far too often. There are just too many situations where the +1 creates feel bad for not just drawing another card and I do not feel that the extra draw is worth tapping 2GU for in a format where Thoughtseize is a lot less prevalent than it was before.
So if Kiora, the Crashing Wave's +1 is there for a win, and it is not really all that effective, I know that I want something outside of Prognostic Sphinx. I used to run Nissa, Worldwaker in the deck but had taken her out because she really just is not very good against the green devotion decks, but good against pretty much anything else. I figure if Kiora is just as bad in this match, I might as well go with the card that is going to give me more reliable, and quicker kills. This is why I am back on 2 Nissa, Worldwaker. I opted to move back to the Perilous Vault plan out of the board because it worked well against the green midrange decks before rotation. I also was not going to be running Darksteel Citadel this time around, which meant I could not just run Extinguish All Hope and come out ahead on a sweep. Having the ability to sweep at instant speed is something the deck wants, because it can untap into some powerful plays once parity is reset and I feel this is the best way to start looking at how we can play from behind.
Green is also so damn prevalent that I went back to the 2 Disdainful Stroke I had MB during initial testing. We had removed these in anticipation of a lot of aggro and now that it is evident that green is completely dominant, I am comfortable putting this card back into the MB. I prefer this over Dissolve because it covers the more essential turns in which you want to be controlling the game anyways, by allowing you to counter their initiative on big drops to untap and play your own. Dissolve can sometimes do this, but not very often thanks to mana demands, being on the draw, and the influence of their mana accelerators. This is primarily why I have moved away from Dissolve in the mainboard in the first place, it is better out of the board when you can start working around these factors from turn 1 and 2 much more efficiently. The density of control cards in these slots directly influences how powerful Dissolve is.
Moving onto the SB, there is a spare Disdainful Stroke and 2 Despise to help power your early control game against Green, and a 2ndPerilous Vault to cover the mid and late game along with a 3rd Ashiok.
I am pretty confident with the list, I am glad I took the time to make the adjustments sooner rather than last minute before registration - it has given me time to confirm my game plan.
Thanks! I have not been that impressed with Nissa thus far, but I think you are right in that she does more then Kiora, and helps establish a timely clock on your opponent. I feel the problem with this deck is that, as you have mentioned a couple of times before, that you HAVE to stay ahead in the game and you cannot fall behind. If you do stay ahead, Kiora is a fine card, and I have used her to close games out with. But, she does very little if you are already slightly behind and Nissa will most likely do more in that spot.
Turn 4 or 5 Prognostic Sphinx and turn 5 or 6 following Sphinx up with Nissa, Worldwaker can really start letting you pull ahead because you can block much more effectively to let Nissa just start going to town - leave the bodies up as mana for removal and start swinging with Prognostic Sphinx until you can just alpha them... either that or just run them over with Nissa anyways. I think she certainly can help you start working on board parity a bit better than Kiora ever will and that is what is more important to me with this deck because it is historically something that it struggles with.
The only thing I am quite skeptical about are the 2 Nylea's Disciple in your SB. Yes, we definitely could use some life-gain, but for how much can we really expect to cast them? 3-4 life? And how much does the body really do?
I've been playing the G/B Devotion list from Ross and it runs 4 Nylea's Disciple in the SB, and still it isn't always enough, even-though that deck can cast them earlier, or for far more life and continuing to do so with 4 of them in the deck and ways to find them in Genesis Hydra. For BGU however I think those slots are better spent on cards that really attack the opponents strategy which with it has the most problems.
It is not really the aggro match that this deck worried about. Those matches really are fine. It is the Jeskai Tempo match, which with us having blue, is a lot better than G/B has. Blue gives us cards like Negate and Dissolve to help protect you while Nylea's Disciple is extra cushion. 3-4 life may not seem like a lot, but when your opponent's burn is not resolving it is quite significant because that 3-4 life could represent to burn spells the opponent has to cast to make it up and they really do not have many ways to start getting extra cards into their hand.
Also, don't underestimate the 3/3 body. Applying pressure with attackers is pretty critical in this match and a Disciple + a 4/4 Elemental is a lot to have to deal with in a timely manner.
I'm running a pretty similar list to what's posted, probably within 5 cards or so.
I'm surprised people don't like Nissa, I just find that she closes games for me, and it's never a problem dropping her down on curve (usually wait T6 so a land can swing in for 4). I'm tempted to run 4 and build around her a little more.
I've found I'm having mana issues. With an opening hand that has Courser and Dissolve, there's just no way I'm going to be able to cast both on curve. I'm actually finding it difficult to ever keep 1UU open to cast dissolve, it may head to the sideboard. This deck seems to want to do something every turn, it's not really a draw-go style deck.
Garruk - I don't know. It can be a lot of fun game 1 but always wants to come out for the other games. Probably a waste of a slot.
Empty the Pits - My other fun slot card. Have never actually cast it, but something tells me it's supposed to be in the deck.
It's a fun deck. Looking at Sultai vs. Jund vs. Esper I'm not sure which one comes out on top yet. Sultai has access to Sylvan/Courser, Jund does the same and gets Rabblemaster + the new Sarkhan, and Esper doesn't access any of this but has white removal and Elspeth. It's nice to have options!
I agree that most of the planeswalkers outside of ashiok are kind of underwhelming. One distributing issue that somebody else brought up is how slow this deck is. I have also cut dig through time from my list. Without running a I win card or a card that catches you up from behind, playing dig as a 1 or 2 of really does not justify its inclusion in my opinion.
I agree that most of the planeswalkers outside of ashiok are kind of underwhelming. One distributing issue that somebody else brought up is how slow this deck is. I have also cut dig through time from my list. Without running a I win card or a card that catches you up from behind, playing dig as a 1 or 2 of really does not justify its inclusion in my opinion.
This is exactly why I play 2x, Ashiok, 2x Kiora, 1x Nissa, 1x Liliana, 1x Garruk in the main, and only 2 Prognostic Sphinx. More wincons..and Kiora/Nissa/Liliana can potentially close the game in a hurry. I actually tried one of Kamahl's builds before rotation and while I did feel in control in most of the games I played, the games were just taking to long to close out. As you play more you certainly get quicker at making decisions and working through the game, but I also prefer the ability to finish the game faster more consistently. My build is almost more geared towards a BGx Rock build with x being blue.
Back when I ran Polukranos, who was pretty awesome in the deck but weak to removal, I was able to close games quickly with him.
Prognostic Sphinx is slower, but does such a great job of "fixing" your cards and is a great blocker. Nissa can go berserk in games you get ahead with the removal as you can close out games very quickly.
Liliana Vess shreds your opponents hands, and typically requires to be attacked. However she has a high loyalty count and is not quickly killed. I think more people get focused on the fact that she can tutor and their isn't a "silver bullet" in the deck for her. I just take cards from my opponent to weaken their game plan and use your tutor if there is something I have to have now. Her ultimate comes up very fast and typically is a game winner.
Kiora, the Crashing Wave can ultimate pretty quickly herself but as it has been discussed she typically is not enough against some of the decks, most notably green...although Green can be handled if you have her and Downfall's/charms to maintain them at 1 "threat" at a time...the problem is Genesis Hydra is typically putting out threats at a rate of 2-1...or their mana ramping is. I find myself using Kiora much more now as a card/ramp engine, and she is still very good at that.
Garruk, Apex Predator is just so powerful and can do so much. It's wonderful to kill of a 10/10 hydra for the life to stay in the game. If I didn't have Kiora to help ramp into him I'd probably not play him, at least mainboard...but as I do, he has the ability to win with the 3/3 deathtouch army. It isn't particularly fast, but by then this is hopefully putting your opponent into the concede territory.
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver can just be another blistering fast trouble maker if it comes in early and for the right matchups. If it doesn't come out early though it is often your Sultai Charm fodder in card draw.
Also, Dig Through Time is totally amazing. The best two cards of 7 are more consistently going to be better than the top 3...and this is usually cast for somewhere in the 2-4 mana range. Jace's Ingenuity is always 5 mana, and Divination only gets you the top two for basically the same cost. I really want to put 3 in the deck, not b/c that means I'm going to play 3, but because I really want 1 almost every game, and I'm not typically going to be disappointed with a second. Just think hard before cracking your Polluted Delta for a swamp...most games you'll need to be cracking it for an Island instead.
I've considered one myself but always have held off because of Bile Blight and trample from Green making it somewhat irrelevant. I think at the very least it could be considered for sideboard in some matchups.
I agree that most of the planeswalkers outside of ashiok are kind of underwhelming. One distributing issue that somebody else brought up is how slow this deck is. I have also cut dig through time from my list. Without running a I win card or a card that catches you up from behind, playing dig as a 1 or 2 of really does not justify its inclusion in my opinion.
This is exactly why I play 2x, Ashiok, 2x Kiora, 1x Nissa, 1x Liliana, 1x Garruk in the main, and only 2 Prognostic Sphinx. More wincons..and Kiora/Nissa/Liliana can potentially close the game in a hurry. I actually tried one of Kamahl's builds before rotation and while I did feel in control in most of the games I played, the games were just taking to long to close out. As you play more you certainly get quicker at making decisions and working through the game, but I also prefer the ability to finish the game faster more consistently. My build is almost more geared towards a BGx Rock build with x being blue.
Back when I ran Polukranos, who was pretty awesome in the deck but weak to removal, I was able to close games quickly with him.
Prognostic Sphinx is slower, but does such a great job of "fixing" your cards and is a great blocker. Nissa can go berserk in games you get ahead with the removal as you can close out games very quickly.
Liliana Vess shreds your opponents hands, and typically requires to be attacked. However she has a high loyalty count and is not quickly killed. I think more people get focused on the fact that she can tutor and their isn't a "silver bullet" in the deck for her. I just take cards from my opponent to weaken their game plan and use your tutor if there is something I have to have now. Her ultimate comes up very fast and typically is a game winner.
Kiora, the Crashing Wave can ultimate pretty quickly herself but as it has been discussed she typically is not enough against some of the decks, most notably green...although Green can be handled if you have her and Downfall's/charms to maintain them at 1 "threat" at a time...the problem is Genesis Hydra is typically putting out threats at a rate of 2-1...or their mana ramping is. I find myself using Kiora much more now as a card/ramp engine, and she is still very good at that.
Garruk, Apex Predator is just so powerful and can do so much. It's wonderful to kill of a 10/10 hydra for the life to stay in the game. If I didn't have Kiora to help ramp into him I'd probably not play him, at least mainboard...but as I do, he has the ability to win with the 3/3 deathtouch army. It isn't particularly fast, but by then this is hopefully putting your opponent into the concede territory.
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver can just be another blistering fast trouble maker if it comes in early and for the right matchups. If it doesn't come out early though it is often your Sultai Charm fodder in card draw.
Also, Dig Through Time is totally amazing. The best two cards of 7 are more consistently going to be better than the top 3...and this is usually cast for somewhere in the 2-4 mana range. Jace's Ingenuity is always 5 mana, and Divination only gets you the top two for basically the same cost. I really want to put 3 in the deck, not b/c that means I'm going to play 3, but because I really want 1 almost every game, and I'm not typically going to be disappointed with a second. Just think hard before cracking your Polluted Delta for a swamp...most games you'll need to be cracking it for an Island instead.
Not really sure if you are agreeing with my statement on planewalkers or not?
As to Dig, I understand and agree that 2 of your top 7 cards will be better than your top 2 or 3...My point is that if you are behind most lists don't run anything that will catch you up, if your ahead there is nothing in any lists that closes the game out faster which allows your opponent usually a turn or 2 of draws to get back into the game, if the game is even then getting a counter spell or removal is about the best you can hope for, which I find rather underwhelming.
Won this match 2-0 pretty handily. He relied on 4 Steam Augry for card advantage but I never let him have anything I couldn't deal with immediately.
Round 2 - Sultai Delve
This was a fun match, almost identical to Brad Nelson's list from last weekend. I won 2-0 in 2 very good games. I simply had too many answers for his creatures.
Round 3 - Mono R Devotion
This deck was trying to use Rabblemaster, Purphoros, Stormbreath, and Fanatic of Mogis. My removal kept his devotion off the board, and Stormbreath is simply not scary with 8 MD kill spells for it. I won 2-0.
Round 4 - Rakdos Aggro
Dropped game 1 in a close match to a topdecked Marauder. Games 2 & 3 were sealed with Drown in Sorrow's wiping his board. He was Mono B aggro splashing for Rabblemaster and War-Name Aspirant. Liked his deck a lot, felt it was the strongest aggro deck I've faced since rotation.
Round 5 - Abzan Midrange
Lost due to Fleecemane Lion's basically. I won game 2 off of Ashiok defended by a Sphinx. Lost 1-2 though.
Round 6 - Abzan Midrange
Terrible G1 matchup for my deck, lost G2 after not finding a 2nd blue source with AEtherspouts, Dissolve, Sphinx, Sphinx, Dig Through Time in my hand.
Finished 4-2 to a 6th place finish out of 62 people. No cut to top 8 since States were on Saturday.
I believe I'm going to cut Kiora just as kamahl has. She's amazing against decks that we're already favored against, while not significantly helping our bad matchups. I also resorted to cutting Sagu Mauler, much against my will. I think he would work great if I just went to a 4-of, but I don't want to cut Sphinx for him. Also, Ashiok was amazing everytime I was able to find and play him. The BR aggro deck had to go after Ashiok, and forced him to overextend into a Drown in Sorrow trying to get around my Caryatid and Courser. The Red Devotion deck was forced to try and kill Ashiok as well after he stole a Stormbreath on the first activation.
The Ascendancy in the MB is just to test for this week. If I like it, it'll stay. Otherwise it'll probably become a Bile Blight or a 3rd Ashiok. The Sideboard is somewhat a WIP as well. I may add 2-3 Nylea's Disciples. I never brought in Liliana at FNM, but I want her there for the control mirror. There are Jeskai and other Sultai control decks starting to pop up. I know I've been turning some others on to at least trying it after they watch my deck. I went with a single EAH in the main over a 4th AEtherspouts to combat the midrange decks that are becoming more prevalent.
So in 2 weeks of testing/playing the deck I only really have 2 problems with the deck.
1. Fleecemane Lion. It's just not easy to deal with. This card makes me want to play Ulcerate as another early answer to it.
2. I feel like I want more card draw, but IDK what I'd even consider to cut for it. I'm not against 3-4 Divination in the deck or even 2-4 Sign in Blood. This deck has so many good tools at it's disposal that figuring out the right combination is tough.
Congrats! Hope to see your report and decklist soon. I have been testing a few different builds, but I would like to see what holds up best against the current standard meta (as in flux as it is currently).
Also, anyone running Empty the Pits? Before I have had some good results with it, but wondering if anyone else has been seeing something similar. Not sure if Dig Through Time just cannibalizes the delve spot and is ultimately better.
Any ETA on the list? Curious to see it before I go to bed since I have a tournament tomorrow.
Modern
UWGB 4c Snow Control BGWU
4 Courser of Kruphix
1 Prognostic Sphinx
1 Sagu Mauler
1 Despise
4 Thoughtseize
3 Ashiok, NIghtmare Weaver
2 Drown in Sorrow
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Sultai Charm
1 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
1 Silence the Believers
1 Nissa, Worldwaker
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
3 Dig Through Time
2 Island
3 Opulent Palace
4 Polluted Delta
3 Swamp
1 Temple of Deceipt
4 Temple of Malady
4 Temple of Mystery
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Thanks Hero's of the Plane
Modern
-------------
xRxAffinityxRx
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/805-w-underground-sea-h-revised-lands
4x Sylvan Caryatid
4x Courser of Kruphix
3x Prognostic Sphinx
Planeswalkers: 5
2x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2x Kiora, The Crashing Wave
1x Garruk, Apex Predator
Removal: 11
2x Bile Blight
4x Hero's Downfall
3x Sultai Charm
2x Murderous Cut
Disruption: 6
3x Thoughtseize
3x Aetherspouts
2x Dig Through Time
Lands: 25
3x Opulent Palace
3x Temple of Malady
3x Temple of Mystery
2x Temple of Deceit
2x Llanowar Wastes
2x Yavimaya Coast
4x Polluted Delta
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Island
3x Nylea's Disciple
4x Drown in Sorrow
2x Disdainful Stroke
2x Negate
1x Thoughtseize
2x Extinguish All Hope
1x Dissolve
Gotta go to work, but I'll discuss the hits and misses tomorrow.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=11439737#post11439737
Reality is only what man allows it to be. Few shape it so that many may accept it.
Mainboard Changes
-1 Bile Blight
-1 Llanowar Wastes
-1 Temple of Malady
-1 Temple of Mystery
-1 Yavimaya Coast
+1 Garruk, Apex Predator
+1 Forest
+1 Polluted Delta
+2 Temple of Deceit
Sideboard Changes:
-1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
-2 Dissolve
-2 Despise
+3 Nylea's Disciple
+1 Drown in Sorrow
+1 Thoughtseize
Modern
UWGB 4c Snow Control BGWU
4x Sylvan Caryatid
3x Courser of Kruphix
3x Prognostic Sphinx
Planeswalkers: 5
2x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2x Kiora, The Crashing Wave
1x Nissa, Worldwaker
Removal: 11
3x Bile Blight
3x Hero's Downfall
3x Sultai Charm
2x Murderous Cut
Disruption: 8
3x Thoughtseize
3x Aetherspouts
2x Dissolve
2x Dig Through Time
Lands: 25
2x Opulent Palace
4x Temple of Malady
4x Temple of Mystery
2x Llanowar Wastes
2x Yavimaya Coast
4x Polluted Delta
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Island
1x Garruk, Apex Predator
1x Kiora, the Crashing Wave
3x Drown in Sorrow
3x Negate
3x Despise
2x Extinguish All Hope
1x Dissolve
1x Murderous Cut
Match 1 - Esper control (0-1)
I knew this matchup was a bit difficult as it basically is whoever lands the first planeswalker wins. Game 1 he landed Ashiok T3, I couldnt find Hero's Downfall quick enough and he followed with Jace AND Elspeth. Game 2 same thing, my Ashiok ate Banishing Light and that was it
Match 2 - Delve BUG (1-1)
My opponent got a game loss because of some sideboard issues so I had the edge. G2 basically was just Sidisi putting zombies and couldnt find an answer for that. Game 3 I sided in Extinguish all hope and Drown in sorrow but Ashiok T3 protected by countermagic and followed by Kiora was more than enough to seal the deal.
Matc 3 - Jeskai Tempo (2-1)
Ashiok ate some burn, then Kiora ate some burn and seemed like my opponent was running out of was, then Prognostic Sphinx hit the board, that stopped the Mantis on its tracks and little by little Courser gained me a little bit of life. The next game was the same, a lot of burn had to hit the walkers to keep the from gaining ground and Prognostic stopped the Mantis on the air until I got Bile Blight and got rid of them.
Match 4 - RW Heroic (3-1)
My opponent got stuck on 1 land until I played 2 Caryatids and 2 Coursers, that was it. Game 2 it was a bit too fast for me and couldnt find removal, even after siding in an extra Cut, 2 Drown in Sorrow and all my Despises hoping I could hit creatures on T1. Game 3 was easier, as I casted Despise, followed by Caryatid, then it was just matter of removing any creature, eventually he ran out of gas and Kiora closed the deal.
Match 5 - GR Monsters (4-1)
My opponent had to mull to 5 so there wasnt much action as I casted T3 Ashiok and we went to G2. Game 2 I didnt gent any lands so I conceded and went to G3. Everything was going back forth with Caryatids and Coursers on both sides, Kiora on my and Xenagos on his. The board got pretty cluttered and he had to swing as he already knew I had Aetherspouts. After wards he casted Genesis Hydra to which I replied on my turn with Extinguish all hope turning the tides and he conceded shortly afterwards.
Match 6 - Golgari Control (4-1-1)
We went to time as everything was just back and forth. G1 I managed to resolve an Ashiok T3 with which I managed to activate no less than 8 times and the best creature I got was a Courser... and he managed to cast Genesis Hydra, Arbor Colossus and Nylea to kill me off. G2 Kiora T3 sticked around and I was able to ultimate her. He cluttered the board with a lot of creatures and another Genesis Hydra+Colossus that died to a Extinguish all hope, the krakens took the game.
G3 was just a matter to survive as I knew with the draw I had a guaranteed Top 8 so I kept a hand full of removal and counters to ensure I would survive long enogh.
Top 8 - Abzan Midrange
Game 1 was awful, between getting hit by Fleecemane Lion and some fetch/Thoughtseize/painlands for removal, I put myself to 10 life....he played his 4 Rhinos and that killed me, even after casting Dig Through Time twice and digging 4 cards I couldnt find counterspells. No Despise/Thoughtseize/Counters again, just Caryatids and Coursers, so that means triple Rhino took the cake home.
It was a great experience and definitely I learned a lot from all my matches.
-Playing with suboptimal lists suck, as I found myself wanting a 4th Courser/Downfall all the time.
-Nissa was REALLY underwhelming, I had to side her out on all my matches and couldnt cast her at all when I drew her, I'll definitely be playing a 3rd Ashiok.
-Extinguish All Hope is legit. That card all by itself gave me the win in at least 3 matches, if you meta has a lot of Green based decks, please do yourself a favor and give it a try.
-Not even once I sided in Garruk or felt the need of playing him, 7 mana was just too much and he didnt dealt with the board as fast as I would have liked.
-I've been playing Gandalf Sphinx since it came out and Ive never liked it was much as I like it now. It just laughs at Sarkhan and Mantis, which is a REALLY big deal on the Jeskai Matchup.
For GP LA I might play the same deck but with this small changes:
-1x Nissa
-1x Bile Blight
-1x Dissolve
+1 Ashiok
+1 Hero's Downfall
+1 Courser of Kruphix
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/805-w-underground-sea-h-revised-lands
99.9% certain the CMC on X spells never consider X regardless of if its on the stack or not. As far as I'm aware xBUG is always a CMC of 3 regardless of where it is in play.
*EDIT* You do declare X as you cast it, but again that isn't a part of the CMC.
117.8d Additional costs don’t change a spell’s mana cost, only what its controller has to pay to cast it. Spells and abilities that ask for that spell’s mana cost still see the original value.
117.9c An alternative cost doesn’t change a spell’s mana cost, only what its controller has to pay to cast it. Spells and abilities that ask for that spell’s mana cost still see the original value.
202.3. The converted mana cost of an object is a number equal to the total amount of mana in its mana cost, regardless of color.
Looks like I might be wrong.
If a cost has an "{X}" in it, the value of X must be announced as part of playing the spell or ability.
(See rule 409, "Playing Spells and Activated Abilities.") While the spell or ability is on the stack, the {X} in its mana cost equals the amount announced as part of playing the spell or ability. If a card in any other zone has {X} in its mana cost, the amount is treated as 0. If you're playing a spell that has {X} in its mana cost and an effect lets you play it without paying any cost that includes X, the only legal choice for X is 0. This does not apply to effects that only reduce a cost, even if they reduce it to zero. See rule 409, "Playing Spells and Activated Abilities."
In triggered abilities, X is defined when the ability resolves. It may be defined by the text of the ability, by a keyword ability of the card, or by the trigger event. See rule 410, "Handling Triggered Abilities."
In other cases, X is defined by the text of a spell or ability. If X isn't defined, the controller of the spell or ability chooses the value of X. All Xs on an object have the same value.
So the bold mentions while it's on the stack and the underline is any other time. Oh man gonna start disdainful stroking my buddies Genesis Hydra's now!
So what I hate about this card...and why I think I need to get over it.
1)It costs THREE CMC. We already have Downfall at THREE CMC. We need more T1 and T2 plays!!!
---FIX - Don't run 4 of these and cut something else at higher mana to keep some T1/T2 plays in the deck.
2)It doesn't hit any of the multi colored wedge cards.
---FIX - Not everything is perfect and we have Hero's Downfall for that and ideally Thoughtseize to snag those cards before they hit the battlefield. I've been on the Bile Blight
3)It doesn't hit the Gods...lets be honest it doesn't hit Nylea, God of the Hunt
---FIX - Unravel the Æther is fantastic here. I've been running it in the main, but one of my primary opponents runs Green Devotion, and another runs a UR Artifacts deck and Unravel is better against Scuttling Doom Engine. I think this should probably be in the side, but I feel like cutting one of the Sultai Charm's for an Unravel...tell me why I shouldn't do this.
4)Three mana for 2 cards and a discard. It's strictly worse than Divination.
---FIX - Get over it. Divination doesn't have two permanent removal options available with it.
Please somebody tell me why I am over thinking this. I feel like I NEED to be playing Sultai Charm but my brain is getting in my way.
*EDIT* I think my biggest problem is when my opponent gets out to a fast start and I'm sitting on a T3 Sultai Charm that can't get the job done and I have nothing else playable in hand and so I have to draw 2/discard 1 only to lose the game the following turn or two without putting up a fight. It just feels so bad right there.
Liliana Vess - I love me some Liliana. I think the right thing is to have 1 in the main, and a second in the side. A lot of people feel like she should only be brought in from the side against control, but I've found she is great an minimizing your opponents hand size in all match ups which makes every one of our removal spells that much better. In aggro matchups I could see pulling her for something like a Pharika's Cure.
Thoughtseize - Why are so many people running only 3? We have so few T1 and T2 plays, even if you include playing tapped lands, that getting one of these in our opening hand is extremely vital. Also, yes it does cost us 2 life, and on occasion 3 off a Llanowar Waste of Polluted Delta, but keep in mind we're spending 2 life to save ourselves more life than that. If I take a Monastery Swiftspear T1 on the play I am almost certainly saving myself a minumum of 3 life by snagging it. That is a simple example. There are so many other times where the card you get almost single-handedly delays your opponent enough to win the game. I can't see a world where we don't run 4 here.
Kiora, The Crashing Wave - I understand with 68+% of the meta on Green based decks she is less than ideal. What are we playing in place of her? Or are we just commiserating because she can be so good but we're in a meta where she isn't?
Villainous Wealth - Sounds terrible in this deck. Sounds great in a Green devotion deck that somehow splashes the other colors. Games I have won with this deck are won around 7 mana on the board. That would only get us 4 cards on average of which 2 are land, 1 is going to be less than 4 mana...2 if we're lucky. Sometimes it will be awesome...for me all those sometimes will be in commander.
Empty the Pits - Could be a pretty good card for us...if we could guarantee our end step cast gave us enough Zombies to win. However, Dig Through Time is to important in this deck to save graveyard cards for Empty the Pits so it just isn't going to work.
Dark Betrayal - Thinking it may be worth a 1 of in the side to cover those pesky Siege Rhino, Butcher of the Horde types.
Despise - Another good sideboard card here. Sometimes offense is the best defense, and attacking their threats before they can cast them is worth it. Effective TSeize 5+ in the matches we need them...especially against builds like Green Devotion that don't beat us down with their mana dorks.
Drown in Sorrow - Almost has to be mainboarded as a 2 of in our deck. We play so few 1 and 2 drops, that in those aggro decks that get out ahead of us the quasi board wipe gives us a chance to get from 3 to 5 mana where we can start to turn the game...and it doesn't knock out our Sylvan Caryatid
Prognostic Sphinx - I just finally started playing with this. I started with Polukranos, World Eater in more of a BG Rock build, then moved to Reaper of the Wilds which I liked, but man, the scry 3 and outlet to toss lands late game to make it hexproof is so powerful when it is on. The ability to toss a card to keep it alive the turn it was cast is excellent. The 3 power versus Reaper/Polukranos has its positives and negatives, but I'm starting to believe this is where we want to be at.
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver - It wins games...or it's terrible, but even when it's terrible it gives you information from your opponent...most of the time it at the very least gives your opponents something other than you to attack which gives you time to bring out your big guns.
Okay I'm done for now. Time to listen to your opinions...my build at the moment.
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Prognostic Sphinx
Spells - 18
4 Thoughtseize
2 Bile Blight
2 Drown in Sorrow
4 Hero's Downfall
3 Sultai Charm
3 Dig Through Time
Planeswalkers - 7
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
1 Liliana Vess
1 Nissa, Worldwaker
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
3 Swamp
2 Island
1 Forest
2 Oppulent Palace
4 Temple of Malady
2 Temple of Mystery
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Yavimaya Coast
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Polluted Delta
1 Dark Betrayal
2 Negate
1 Disdainful Stroke
2 Pharika's Cure
1 Despise
2 Nylea's Disciple
2 Hornet Nest
1 Drown in Sorrow
1 Extinguish All Hope
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Liliana Vess
Liliana Vess - Personally I still prefer just one and SB. The deck doesnt pack any silver bullets maindeck that require to her main to fetch them, if you are facing Jeskai/Abzan/Mardu she doesnt do anything but ive you a removal spell to an already cluttered board and most probably she'll die a turn later, or at least thats what experience has taught me.
Thoughtseize - The reason why people are afraid of running 4 is because decks like Jeskai Tempo (and some RW heroic brews) is getting more popular and losing 2 life on your turn is already putting them ahead. You'll see the 4th Thoughtseize on the board after you are certain you arent facing burn/aggro decks.
Kiora, The Crashing Wave - Depends. I still run two of her and she was always a threat, in fact I ultimated her 3 times in 6 rounds. If you can have a Courser/Caryatid has a back up blocker and a removal in hand she's deadly.
Villainous Wealth - It has to be a specific deck built for this card, so far from all the lists Ive seen on this primer I dont see it fitting in any of them.
Empty the Pits - Dig Through Time was one of he MVPs for me, same with Murderous Cut. You'll most likely deplete your yard with those two than with Pits. Pits wont bring you back on the game if you are behind while Cut or Dig could be answers to some threats on the field or help you dig for them.
Dark Betrayal - I had a copy for the same reasons that you just mentioned, sadly enough I didnt faced any Mardu deck and never saw it against Abzan. I could give it another chance but its very situational.
Despise - Despise is great on a meta with a lot of Midrange decks. Its great against Mardu, GR Devotion, Abzan, Junk... simply any creature based deck, most lists have it on SB.
Drown in Sorrow - Rarely felt the need of playing it, maybe because I didnt faced any aggro decks. I understand its a need and you have to have at least 2 but 4 is a bit overkill, it doesnt kill Mantis/Rhino/Butcher/Courser...which are our priority in all the non-agro matchups.
Prognostic Sphinx -Stops Mantis/Sarkhan/Courser/Rhino and its a finisher if left unchecked.
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver - Best card in the deck in my opinion, seriously. With so many creature based decks these days you'll most likely steal a 3-4 drop, and most likely you'll have a Courser/Caryatid/removal to serve as backup to make sure he stays alive.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/805-w-underground-sea-h-revised-lands
I like the direction you're going, but your disruption count is 8 (listed as 6) which makes your deck 62 cards total. Did you actually run 62, or is your list a little off?
61, sorry! I had hat problem, ended up making a mess in my registration sheet lol
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/805-w-underground-sea-h-revised-lands
Below is my most current list.
So I attended another GPT last night just to see if I could skate winning a box and see if I could settle on some the the changes I have been wanting to make before the IQ. After losing round one by punting allowing a Boon Satyr to resolve, I was paired against a team member in round 3. He needed the byes for GP LA and since I just picked mine up, I opted to give him the match and call it a night to go home and decide on my list before the IQ.
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
3 Prognostic Sphinx
Planeswalkers
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Nissa, Worldwaker
Disruption
3 Thoughtseize
2 Disdainful Stroke
Removal
3 Bile Blight
3 Sultai Charm
4 Hero's Downfall
2 Murderous Cut
1 Perilous Vault
2 Dig Through Time
Land
4 Temple of Mystery
4 Temple of Malady
3 Yavimaya Coast
3 Llanowar Wastes
3 Opulent Palace
3 Polluted Delta
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Disdainful Stroke
2 Negate
3 Dissolve
2 Despise
3 Drown in Sorrow
2 Nylea's Disciple
1 Perilous Vault
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
A Couple of things I want to touch on:
Sultai Charm is one of the best cards in the deck. The Disenchant mode is surprisingly relevant a fair amount of the time and there is no shortage of mono-colored creatures - especially in our tougher matches against Devotion. The price of BGU really is not that bad, even if we are stacked on the 3 CMC slots. Having access to Catalog allows us to filter our draws a bit more and dig deeper to help keep ourselves from falling behind or allow us to maximize our main phase plays. The card is never dead.
Kiora, the Crashing Wave got the axe. I don't get what people are liking about this card. As someone who has been deep in Sultai since before rotation, I am familiar with what she does, when she does it, and how she does it... but the format is pretty different than where things were are before KTK and even how they were in block. Decks are too efficient with their mana these days and you don't come across clear board states where Blood Baron of Vizkopa, Stormbreath Dragon, or Desecration Demon are the only big threats you have to stare down. Cards like Genesis Hydra and Nissa, Worldwaker maker her +1 a lot less relevant because they just go around her ability far too often. This is further compounded by splash variants running Stormbreath Dragon, and Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker. Wingmate Roc, Goblin Rabblemaster, Mantis Rider, and all of the burn spells are yet more cards that allow decks to just bypass her far too often. There are just too many situations where the +1 creates feel bad for not just drawing another card and I do not feel that the extra draw is worth tapping 2GU for in a format where Thoughtseize is a lot less prevalent than it was before.
So if Kiora, the Crashing Wave's +1 is there for a win, and it is not really all that effective, I know that I want something outside of Prognostic Sphinx. I used to run Nissa, Worldwaker in the deck but had taken her out because she really just is not very good against the green devotion decks, but good against pretty much anything else. I figure if Kiora is just as bad in this match, I might as well go with the card that is going to give me more reliable, and quicker kills. This is why I am back on 2 Nissa, Worldwaker. I opted to move back to the Perilous Vault plan out of the board because it worked well against the green midrange decks before rotation. I also was not going to be running Darksteel Citadel this time around, which meant I could not just run Extinguish All Hope and come out ahead on a sweep. Having the ability to sweep at instant speed is something the deck wants, because it can untap into some powerful plays once parity is reset and I feel this is the best way to start looking at how we can play from behind.
Green is also so damn prevalent that I went back to the 2 Disdainful Stroke I had MB during initial testing. We had removed these in anticipation of a lot of aggro and now that it is evident that green is completely dominant, I am comfortable putting this card back into the MB. I prefer this over Dissolve because it covers the more essential turns in which you want to be controlling the game anyways, by allowing you to counter their initiative on big drops to untap and play your own. Dissolve can sometimes do this, but not very often thanks to mana demands, being on the draw, and the influence of their mana accelerators. This is primarily why I have moved away from Dissolve in the mainboard in the first place, it is better out of the board when you can start working around these factors from turn 1 and 2 much more efficiently. The density of control cards in these slots directly influences how powerful Dissolve is.
Moving onto the SB, there is a spare Disdainful Stroke and 2 Despise to help power your early control game against Green, and a 2ndPerilous Vault to cover the mid and late game along with a 3rd Ashiok.
Nylea's Disciple is there for aggro I suppose, but mainly for Jeskai Tempo. You can use Negate and Nylea's Disciple quite effectively in this match, allowing you to get Prognostic Sphins and Nissa, Worldwaker online at a more stable life total.
SB plans are as follows:
IN
2 Negate
3 Dissolve
2 Nylea's Disciple
OUT
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Sultai Charm
1 Perilous Vault
IN
1 Disdainful Stroke
3 Dissolve
2 Despise
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Perilous Vault
OUT
1 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
3 Bile Blight
IN
1 Disdainful Stroke
3 Dissolve
2 Despise
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Perilous Vault
OUT
1 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
3 Bile Blight
IN
2 Despise
3 Drown in Sorrow
2 Nylea's Disciple
OUT
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Disdainful Stroke
3 Thoughtseize
IN
2 Negate
3 Dissolve
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
OUT
3 Bile Blight
2 Murderous Cut
1 Courser of Kruphix
I am pretty confident with the list, I am glad I took the time to make the adjustments sooner rather than last minute before registration - it has given me time to confirm my game plan.
Turn 4 or 5 Prognostic Sphinx and turn 5 or 6 following Sphinx up with Nissa, Worldwaker can really start letting you pull ahead because you can block much more effectively to let Nissa just start going to town - leave the bodies up as mana for removal and start swinging with Prognostic Sphinx until you can just alpha them... either that or just run them over with Nissa anyways. I think she certainly can help you start working on board parity a bit better than Kiora ever will and that is what is more important to me with this deck because it is historically something that it struggles with.
It is not really the aggro match that this deck worried about. Those matches really are fine. It is the Jeskai Tempo match, which with us having blue, is a lot better than G/B has. Blue gives us cards like Negate and Dissolve to help protect you while Nylea's Disciple is extra cushion. 3-4 life may not seem like a lot, but when your opponent's burn is not resolving it is quite significant because that 3-4 life could represent to burn spells the opponent has to cast to make it up and they really do not have many ways to start getting extra cards into their hand.
Also, don't underestimate the 3/3 body. Applying pressure with attackers is pretty critical in this match and a Disciple + a 4/4 Elemental is a lot to have to deal with in a timely manner.
I'm surprised people don't like Nissa, I just find that she closes games for me, and it's never a problem dropping her down on curve (usually wait T6 so a land can swing in for 4). I'm tempted to run 4 and build around her a little more.
I've found I'm having mana issues. With an opening hand that has Courser and Dissolve, there's just no way I'm going to be able to cast both on curve. I'm actually finding it difficult to ever keep 1UU open to cast dissolve, it may head to the sideboard. This deck seems to want to do something every turn, it's not really a draw-go style deck.
Garruk - I don't know. It can be a lot of fun game 1 but always wants to come out for the other games. Probably a waste of a slot.
Empty the Pits - My other fun slot card. Have never actually cast it, but something tells me it's supposed to be in the deck.
It's a fun deck. Looking at Sultai vs. Jund vs. Esper I'm not sure which one comes out on top yet. Sultai has access to Sylvan/Courser, Jund does the same and gets Rabblemaster + the new Sarkhan, and Esper doesn't access any of this but has white removal and Elspeth. It's nice to have options!
This is exactly why I play 2x, Ashiok, 2x Kiora, 1x Nissa, 1x Liliana, 1x Garruk in the main, and only 2 Prognostic Sphinx. More wincons..and Kiora/Nissa/Liliana can potentially close the game in a hurry. I actually tried one of Kamahl's builds before rotation and while I did feel in control in most of the games I played, the games were just taking to long to close out. As you play more you certainly get quicker at making decisions and working through the game, but I also prefer the ability to finish the game faster more consistently. My build is almost more geared towards a BGx Rock build with x being blue.
Back when I ran Polukranos, who was pretty awesome in the deck but weak to removal, I was able to close games quickly with him.
Also, Dig Through Time is totally amazing. The best two cards of 7 are more consistently going to be better than the top 3...and this is usually cast for somewhere in the 2-4 mana range. Jace's Ingenuity is always 5 mana, and Divination only gets you the top two for basically the same cost. I really want to put 3 in the deck, not b/c that means I'm going to play 3, but because I really want 1 almost every game, and I'm not typically going to be disappointed with a second. Just think hard before cracking your Polluted Delta for a swamp...most games you'll need to be cracking it for an Island instead.
Not really sure if you are agreeing with my statement on planewalkers or not?
As to Dig, I understand and agree that 2 of your top 7 cards will be better than your top 2 or 3...My point is that if you are behind most lists don't run anything that will catch you up, if your ahead there is nothing in any lists that closes the game out faster which allows your opponent usually a turn or 2 of draws to get back into the game, if the game is even then getting a counter spell or removal is about the best you can hope for, which I find rather underwhelming.
2 Forest
3 Island
2 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Temple of Malady
3 Temple of Mystery
1 Temple of Deceit
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Yavimaya Coast
2 Llanowar Wastes
2 Opulant Palace
Creatures
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Prognostic Sphinx
1 Sagu Mauler
3 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Spells
4 Hero's Downfall
3 Thoughtseize
3 AEtherspouts
3 Sultai Charm
2 Despise
2 Dig Through Time
1 Empty the Pits
1 Murderous Cut
3 Drown in Sorrow
3 Dissolve
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Dark Betrayal
2 Extinguish All Hope
1 Liliana Vess
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
1 Mistcutter Hydra
Match Results:
Round 1 - Izzet Tempo
Won this match 2-0 pretty handily. He relied on 4 Steam Augry for card advantage but I never let him have anything I couldn't deal with immediately.
Round 2 - Sultai Delve
This was a fun match, almost identical to Brad Nelson's list from last weekend. I won 2-0 in 2 very good games. I simply had too many answers for his creatures.
Round 3 - Mono R Devotion
This deck was trying to use Rabblemaster, Purphoros, Stormbreath, and Fanatic of Mogis. My removal kept his devotion off the board, and Stormbreath is simply not scary with 8 MD kill spells for it. I won 2-0.
Round 4 - Rakdos Aggro
Dropped game 1 in a close match to a topdecked Marauder. Games 2 & 3 were sealed with Drown in Sorrow's wiping his board. He was Mono B aggro splashing for Rabblemaster and War-Name Aspirant. Liked his deck a lot, felt it was the strongest aggro deck I've faced since rotation.
Round 5 - Abzan Midrange
Lost due to Fleecemane Lion's basically. I won game 2 off of Ashiok defended by a Sphinx. Lost 1-2 though.
Round 6 - Abzan Midrange
Terrible G1 matchup for my deck, lost G2 after not finding a 2nd blue source with AEtherspouts, Dissolve, Sphinx, Sphinx, Dig Through Time in my hand.
Finished 4-2 to a 6th place finish out of 62 people. No cut to top 8 since States were on Saturday.
I believe I'm going to cut Kiora just as kamahl has. She's amazing against decks that we're already favored against, while not significantly helping our bad matchups. I also resorted to cutting Sagu Mauler, much against my will. I think he would work great if I just went to a 4-of, but I don't want to cut Sphinx for him. Also, Ashiok was amazing everytime I was able to find and play him. The BR aggro deck had to go after Ashiok, and forced him to overextend into a Drown in Sorrow trying to get around my Caryatid and Courser. The Red Devotion deck was forced to try and kill Ashiok as well after he stole a Stormbreath on the first activation.
Here's my new list
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
3 Prognostic Sphinx
Planeswalkers
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Nissa, Worldwaker
Spells
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Sultai Charm
4 Despise
3 AEtherspouts
2 Murderous Cut
2 Dig Through Time
1 Extinguish All Hope
1 Sultai Ascendency
3 Drown in Sorrow
3 Dissolve
3 THoughtseize
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Dark Betrayal
1 Liliana Vess
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
1 Extinguish All Hope
The Ascendancy in the MB is just to test for this week. If I like it, it'll stay. Otherwise it'll probably become a Bile Blight or a 3rd Ashiok. The Sideboard is somewhat a WIP as well. I may add 2-3 Nylea's Disciples. I never brought in Liliana at FNM, but I want her there for the control mirror. There are Jeskai and other Sultai control decks starting to pop up. I know I've been turning some others on to at least trying it after they watch my deck. I went with a single EAH in the main over a 4th AEtherspouts to combat the midrange decks that are becoming more prevalent.
So in 2 weeks of testing/playing the deck I only really have 2 problems with the deck.
1. Fleecemane Lion. It's just not easy to deal with. This card makes me want to play Ulcerate as another early answer to it.
2. I feel like I want more card draw, but IDK what I'd even consider to cut for it. I'm not against 3-4 Divination in the deck or even 2-4 Sign in Blood. This deck has so many good tools at it's disposal that figuring out the right combination is tough.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/598381-kiki-chord-kiki-company
Bring to Niv
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/814060-bring-to-niv-the-golden-deck
Legacy - Lands
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/established-legacy/control/535484-primer-lands