Nemsis wave requires far too much mana.... doesn't necessarily effect the board or your opponents hand like ultimatum does really importantly it doesn't gain you life like an ultimatum.
19 black. 18 Blue, 8 green. according to Frank Krasten that allows for turn 2 bile blight turn 3 dissolve and turn 6ish Sagu Mauler. Although you do have to keep in mind that coming into play tapped slows you down.. which is why my BG source comes into play untapped for early bile blight.
The pro tour UB decks have 4 dismal backwater and 1 radiant fountain. That is a stack of life I don't gain... I am considering replacing my come into play tapped lands with this
Blue and black are fine but my Green is down to 6 :S.... I also lose a 2 scry. Hopefully with the bigger card draw that I intend to add switching towards the pro tour decks I 'll be able to find the green.
The CF pantheon deck will be up on channelfireball at some point during the week that is what they have done in the past. Also likely to show up on Wizards site as the well performing standard decks.
I'm excited U/B Control got a decent showing this Pro Tour, and that it was run by some of the best current players. Sadly, it has an unfavorable matchup against the Jeskai decks which are very popular currently. The damage output is very tough to keep up with unless you consistently have answers when you need them. I looked into options for lifegain in these colors, and outside of Jorubai Murk Lurker, Pharika's Cure, and Dismal Backwater, there's not many available. Two cards I came across are Profane Memento and Staff of the Death Magus. Staff was seen in the sideboard of Mono Black last season for the burn decks, but it doesn't seem great, especially at 3 CMC. Profane Memento is cheaper, and with the amount of removal and hand disruption, it should be able to net at least a few points of life. Unfortunately, neither of these options are really desirable and are worsened further in lists that run Perilous Vault.
Overall, I prefer the Pantheon's list, but Prognostic Sphinx would be helpful in the Jeskai matchups. Perhaps a few in the sideboard could also help. The 5 toughness means it would require two burns spells, or one after it blocks, but it may not be viable to be discarding to the Sphinx often without large amounts of card draw and especially in situations where you'll want most of the cards in your hand anyway.
I'll be running variants of the lists from the Pro Tour, and testing various strategies to improve this matchup.
I also a have a small red splash for a keranos main and side, originally I had storm breaths main as well, as a lot of decks aren't expecting it g1, and giving them life link g2 with the murk lurkers is fun, but it stretched the mana too far.
I've got 3 ashiok's main and 1 vault, but I think I'm gonna go on the 4 vault plan.
I'm also running 2 treasure cruises and 1 ingenuity, I'm not having a problem filling the yard enough to fuel 8 delve spells no problem.
Have people been testing Empty the Pits as a finisher? Depending on the circumstances, I think it might be a faster win condition on the basis that it has evasion, kind of, and can kill the opponent way faster in the abstract.
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Have people been testing Empty the Pits as a finisher? Depending on the circumstances, I think it might be a faster win condition on the basis that it has evasion, kind of, and can kill the opponent way faster in the abstract.
Empty the Pits, and for that matter Prognostic Sphinx, does not interact well with Perilous Vault. In versions that do not run vault they can be good wins, or if vault is sided out. Otherwise PGA seems the better win con right now.
Speaking of Ancient, does anyone know if I can bounce a land (one) for the activated ability and negate bouncing any others to reuse the land's effect, like life gain or scry? Or do I have to bounce three and return ancient. Can't find a definitive answer.
I think its hard, there are so many good delve spells, which are more useful.
WIth control, once you stabilize its easy to win with just about anything. But getting there is the hard part, which is why I would imagine Cut and DTT are better then a finisher with delve. Seeing as you can just play Sphinx or PLA
You have to bounce lands in sets of three and when the ability resolves, PLA will return to your hand.
So you can't bounce only one or two lands under any circumstance, but you can activate the ability multiple times if you have enough lands (i.e. the opponent tries to downfall your PLA, you respond by bouncing 3 lands, opponent responds with second downfall, you respond again by bouncing another three lands, opponent has no further responses -> PLA returns to your hand (in addition to the 6 lands you already returned)).
This is what I thought, just couldn't find anything that would confirm it. Thanks
Is there any consensus on which build is superior right now? Seems like it's Pearl Lake Ancient/ Perilous Vault vs. Prognostic Sphinx. They seem like decks you can't really mingle together. The perilous vault plan really makes it so running creatures isn't much of an option.
I didn't see the decks play. Seems like lifegain (or loss) would be an issue, along with the ability to just do damage to the opponent. Must be a slow grind.
I think it's a metagame call. Sphinx is nice because he can block stuff like Siege Rhino, turns into a threat earlier, fixes your draws if you land two, etc. Vault deals with creatures with regeneration and can save you if you fall way behind. PLA is a worse win-con, but is better if you're playing vault.
Hey guys, been a minute. Been drafting a lot llately, so standard has been irrelevant at my LGS as of late. I like Pearl Lake Ancient as a wincon, but I'm not sure what I want for My removal package just yet. I like omenspeaker over returned phalanx for two huge reasons. Phalanx always draws removal before you can get a significant amount of damage in, which you have to use two mana to pay for the damage anyway, and omenspeaker provides card advantage. Whoever said End Hostilities isn't a good wrath apparently hasn't tried it, but unfortunately, we aren't playing white. AEtherspouts does plenty enough to get the job done, especially with 3 - 4 ashiok in the main. I read on the mothership somewhere, though, that in the future they will print 4cmc Wraths with a downside and 5cmc wraths with an upside. No more Supreme Verdict, no Damnation reprint. PLA is the only thing I can think of as a solid answer to Sagu Mauler and if this is an actual pattern, Geth's Verdict, skip Innistrad, then Devour Flesh, skip Theros, Khans block may provide us with a sac spell to deal with indestructible and hexproof creatures, which are my biggest problem. I don't have a list that's updated, but as soon as I get some testing done on two lists, I'll decide on one and share. Anyone have a link to Turtenwalds list? I like the other one with 4 despise, just not sure I want to run 4 Prognostic Sphinx.
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I think that 26 lands is better for this deck because it is more akin to Mono Black Devotion in my opinion than it is to Esper and Azorius Control decks of Standard past.
The finisher of choice is certainly meta dependent. If there's a ton of dragons and elspeth in your area then the sphinx is miles better, but the snake is always going to be worth playing.
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I like 25, since 26 seems to get me mana flooded. I don't ever base my land count on anything other than playtesting and curve/top cost.
I messed around with Curse of the Swine when it came out, and even hitting things like Blood Baron of Vizkopa at the time, it wasn't good enough. It's basically casting Final Judgement just for your opponent to follow up with an Empty the Pits. Not really that great. In most cases Swan Song wasn't worth giving your opponent a creature.
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You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
The finisher of choice is certainly meta dependent. If there's a ton of dragons and elspeth in your area then the sphinx is miles better, but the snake is always going to be worth playing.
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And on that day, Garfield said unto the world "Go ye forth and durdle!"
The finisher of choice is certainly meta dependent. If there's a ton of dragons and elspeth in your area then the sphinx is miles better, but the snake is always going to be worth playing.
The finisher is not just meta dependent, it is deck dependent too. If you run Vault as your choice catch all/sweeper then PLA is simply better. If you are otherwise using spells on a one-for-one basis to deal with threats than Empty the Pits or Prognastic Sphinx is better. If you can somehow make Ashiok work outside a control mirror than I assume your running some version of Adrian Sullivan's list with better success. For those of you who dont know there were THREE different builds of UB Control running at PTKTK. Cifka/Floch version with 4x Sphinx, CFB Pantheon version (Tutenwald/Cuneo) with Vault/PLA, and Adrian Sullivan with Ashiok; all are available on the mothership.
Considering that UB does not have much in the way of dealing with resolved non-creature permanents at this time, and no edict effects, than running vault SOMEWHERE in the 75 is likely the best way to go.
Lost round 1 to the guy who got second recently at Texas States. He was on a GR Monsters deck. I probably beat him if he doesn't draw 2 Stormbreath Dragons and Sarkhan in consecutive turns, but I digress. Felt winnable.
Round 2 I crushed UWR Burn(Tempo). Admittedly, he came out slow game 1 and mulled to 6 game 2, but 3 Negates and those Lurkers, man.
Round 3 I beat Junk Midrange. A lot of discard happened, things were stroked disdainfully and Perilous Vault cleaned up the rest. I cant see winning this matchup without Vault. The boardstates they can make with Rhino/Sorin/Roc are simply to much for one for one removal.
Round 4 I beat the mirror. The Pearl Lake Ancient fights were pretty cool. It was way less "****, I'm dead" than when Aetherling was around. The trick is get them to recall it then cast a discard spell, counter back up helps of course.
All in all, I like the deck. Tons of discard for the early game. Tons of counters and removal for the late game. Pearl Lake Ancient to close it out. Plus you get to cast a few Dig Through Times, which is pretty rad. I played what I would call a pretty bad Esper deck at states to a 5-3 finish(Thanks, Siege Rhino), and I really wish I had been playing this. Or maybe I just wish I was playing Pearl Lake Ancient.
Also, Jorubai Murk Lurker is a goofy card, but I brought it in all 4 rounds. Its pretty sweet giving PLA lifelink. I would certainly recommend SB'ing 4 of them.
Lost round 1 to the guy who got second recently at Texas States. He was on a GR Monsters deck. I probably beat him if he doesn't draw 2 Stormbreath Dragons and Sarkhan in consecutive turns, but I digress. Felt winnable.
Round 2 I crushed UWR Burn(Tempo). Admittedly, he came out slow game 1 and mulled to 6 game 2, but 3 Negates and those Lurkers, man.
Round 3 I beat Junk Midrange. A lot of discard happened, things were stroked disdainfully and Perilous Vault cleaned up the rest. I cant see winning this matchup without Vault. The boardstates they can make with Rhino/Sorin/Roc are simply to much for one for one removal.
Round 4 I beat the mirror. The Pearl Lake Ancient fights were pretty cool. It was way less "****, I'm dead" than when Aetherling was around. The trick is get them to recall it then cast a discard spell, counter back up helps of course.
All in all, I like the deck. Tons of discard for the early game. Tons of counters and removal for the late game. Pearl Lake Ancient to close it out. Plus you get to cast a few Dig Through Times, which is pretty rad. I played what I would call a pretty bad Esper deck at states to a 5-3 finish(Thanks, Siege Rhino), and I really wish I had been playing this. Or maybe I just wish I was playing Pearl Lake Ancient.
Also, Jorubai Murk Lurker is a goofy card, but I brought it in all 4 rounds. Its pretty sweet giving PLA lifelink. I would certainly recommend SB'ing 4 of them.
Originally I had rabbles side, but I never really used them. My landbase for a keranos only splash was 4x temple, 4x life land, 3x r/b fetch, 1x u/b (only have the one currently) fetch, 2 evolving wilds, 2 mountain and the rest swamps/islands and urborg. I went down to 1 mountain for a bit, but then I remembered ashiok was a thing and milling away my only mountain was a bad thing.
I did. I brought it in for the mirror. Its a card that I'll admit I probably just want to make work to much. It should probably be a 4th Thoughtseize or something...
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Nemsis wave requires far too much mana.... doesn't necessarily effect the board or your opponents hand like ultimatum does really importantly it doesn't gain you life like an ultimatum.
Adding green removes the life gain that UB has.
For example my perfect mana base.
Lands
4 Opulent palace
4 Temple of deceit
4 Polluted Delta
2 llanowar wastes
2 Temple of mystery
1 urborg tomb of yawgmoth
4 Island
4 Swamp
19 black. 18 Blue, 8 green. according to Frank Krasten that allows for turn 2 bile blight turn 3 dissolve and turn 6ish Sagu Mauler. Although you do have to keep in mind that coming into play tapped slows you down.. which is why my BG source comes into play untapped for early bile blight.
The pro tour UB decks have 4 dismal backwater and 1 radiant fountain. That is a stack of life I don't gain... I am considering replacing my come into play tapped lands with this
Lands
4 Temple of deceit
4 Polluted Delta
2 llanowar wastes
2 Dismal backwater
2 jungle hollow
2 Thornwood falls
1 urborg tomb of yawgmoth
4 Island
4 Swamp
Blue and black are fine but my Green is down to 6 :S.... I also lose a 2 scry. Hopefully with the bigger card draw that I intend to add switching towards the pro tour decks I 'll be able to find the green.
The CF pantheon deck will be up on channelfireball at some point during the week that is what they have done in the past. Also likely to show up on Wizards site as the well performing standard decks.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
2 Pearl Lake Ancient
3 Thoughtseize
1 Ætherspouts
4 Bile Blight
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Dissolve
4 Dig Through Time
3 Jace's Ingenuity
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Murderous Cut
4 Temple of Deceit
6 Island
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Radiant Fountain
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Dismal Backwater
5 Swamp
1 Evolving Wilds
4 Polluted Delta
1 Disdainful Stroke
4 Jorubai Murk Lurker
3 Negate
4 Drown in Sorrow
2 Pharika's Cure
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Cremate
4 Think Twice
3 Forbbiden Alchemy
3 Syncopate
3 Psychic Strike
2 Negate
3 Dimir Charm
3 Tragic Slip
3 Tribute to Hunger
3 Mutilate
2 Vanishment
3 Evolving Wilds
4 Watery Grave
4 Drowned Catacomb
3 Island
8 Swamp
http://www.channelfireball.com/home/teamcfbp-deck-tech-blueblack-control/
Overall, I prefer the Pantheon's list, but Prognostic Sphinx would be helpful in the Jeskai matchups. Perhaps a few in the sideboard could also help. The 5 toughness means it would require two burns spells, or one after it blocks, but it may not be viable to be discarding to the Sphinx often without large amounts of card draw and especially in situations where you'll want most of the cards in your hand anyway.
I'll be running variants of the lists from the Pro Tour, and testing various strategies to improve this matchup.
2 Prognostic sphinx
2 Sagu Mauler
sorceries
3 dispise
2 thoughtsieze
2 drown in sorrow
Instants
4 Dissolve
4 Hero's downfall
3 Disdainful stroke
3 Bile blight
3 Dig through time
2 Murderous cut
2 Silence the belivers
2 Jace's ingueity
1 Aetherspouts
4 Temple of deceit
4 Polluted Delta
2 llanowar wastes
2 Dismal backwater
2 jungle hollow
2 Thornwood falls
1 Urborg tomb of yawgmoth
4 Island
4 Swamp
My life total is much safer but I just drew expensive card draw and got ran over. maybe I'll go back to font inguenity was really clunky
What I would give for a wrath :(.. perilious vault and aetherspouts are options. really want some kinda reset.
The smaller abzan deck like sigrist's is tricky and burn remains a concern.
Do we require a way to kill caratyd? as not to die to Jeskai asendancy? or should we use bounce or some other way to trip them up.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
I've got 3 ashiok's main and 1 vault, but I think I'm gonna go on the 4 vault plan.
I'm also running 2 treasure cruises and 1 ingenuity, I'm not having a problem filling the yard enough to fuel 8 delve spells no problem.
I want to splash Red in UB Control for Steam Augury and Keranos. (And Rabblemaster out of the board :rollout:)
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Empty the Pits, and for that matter Prognostic Sphinx, does not interact well with Perilous Vault. In versions that do not run vault they can be good wins, or if vault is sided out. Otherwise PGA seems the better win con right now.
Speaking of Ancient, does anyone know if I can bounce a land (one) for the activated ability and negate bouncing any others to reuse the land's effect, like life gain or scry? Or do I have to bounce three and return ancient. Can't find a definitive answer.
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Cremate
4 Think Twice
3 Forbbiden Alchemy
3 Syncopate
3 Psychic Strike
2 Negate
3 Dimir Charm
3 Tragic Slip
3 Tribute to Hunger
3 Mutilate
2 Vanishment
3 Evolving Wilds
4 Watery Grave
4 Drowned Catacomb
3 Island
8 Swamp
WIth control, once you stabilize its easy to win with just about anything. But getting there is the hard part, which is why I would imagine Cut and DTT are better then a finisher with delve. Seeing as you can just play Sphinx or PLA
This is what I thought, just couldn't find anything that would confirm it. Thanks
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Cremate
4 Think Twice
3 Forbbiden Alchemy
3 Syncopate
3 Psychic Strike
2 Negate
3 Dimir Charm
3 Tragic Slip
3 Tribute to Hunger
3 Mutilate
2 Vanishment
3 Evolving Wilds
4 Watery Grave
4 Drowned Catacomb
3 Island
8 Swamp
I didn't see the decks play. Seems like lifegain (or loss) would be an issue, along with the ability to just do damage to the opponent. Must be a slow grind.
Edit: Found the Turtenwald list and breakdown.
Avatar by DarkNightCavalier
You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
UW Approach UW
EDH
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls U
I messed around with Curse of the Swine when it came out, and even hitting things like Blood Baron of Vizkopa at the time, it wasn't good enough. It's basically casting Final Judgement just for your opponent to follow up with an Empty the Pits. Not really that great. In most cases Swan Song wasn't worth giving your opponent a creature.
Avatar by DarkNightCavalier
You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
The finisher is not just meta dependent, it is deck dependent too. If you run Vault as your choice catch all/sweeper then PLA is simply better. If you are otherwise using spells on a one-for-one basis to deal with threats than Empty the Pits or Prognastic Sphinx is better. If you can somehow make Ashiok work outside a control mirror than I assume your running some version of Adrian Sullivan's list with better success. For those of you who dont know there were THREE different builds of UB Control running at PTKTK. Cifka/Floch version with 4x Sphinx, CFB Pantheon version (Tutenwald/Cuneo) with Vault/PLA, and Adrian Sullivan with Ashiok; all are available on the mothership.
Considering that UB does not have much in the way of dealing with resolved non-creature permanents at this time, and no edict effects, than running vault SOMEWHERE in the 75 is likely the best way to go.
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Cremate
4 Think Twice
3 Forbbiden Alchemy
3 Syncopate
3 Psychic Strike
2 Negate
3 Dimir Charm
3 Tragic Slip
3 Tribute to Hunger
3 Mutilate
2 Vanishment
3 Evolving Wilds
4 Watery Grave
4 Drowned Catacomb
3 Island
8 Swamp
4 Dissolve
4 Disdainful Stroke
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Dig Through Time
3 Bile Blight
2 Jace's Ingenuity
2 Silence the Believers
Sorceries
4 Despise
2 Thoughtseize
Artifacts
3 Perilous Vault
2 Pearl Lake Ancient
Lands
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Dismal Backwater
5 Island
5 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Jorubai Murk Lurker
4 Drown in Sorrow
3 Negate
2 Pharika's Cure
1 Thoughtseize
1 Empty the Pits
Lost round 1 to the guy who got second recently at Texas States. He was on a GR Monsters deck. I probably beat him if he doesn't draw 2 Stormbreath Dragons and Sarkhan in consecutive turns, but I digress. Felt winnable.
Round 2 I crushed UWR Burn(Tempo). Admittedly, he came out slow game 1 and mulled to 6 game 2, but 3 Negates and those Lurkers, man.
Round 3 I beat Junk Midrange. A lot of discard happened, things were stroked disdainfully and Perilous Vault cleaned up the rest. I cant see winning this matchup without Vault. The boardstates they can make with Rhino/Sorin/Roc are simply to much for one for one removal.
Round 4 I beat the mirror. The Pearl Lake Ancient fights were pretty cool. It was way less "****, I'm dead" than when Aetherling was around. The trick is get them to recall it then cast a discard spell, counter back up helps of course.
All in all, I like the deck. Tons of discard for the early game. Tons of counters and removal for the late game. Pearl Lake Ancient to close it out. Plus you get to cast a few Dig Through Times, which is pretty rad. I played what I would call a pretty bad Esper deck at states to a 5-3 finish(Thanks, Siege Rhino), and I really wish I had been playing this. Or maybe I just wish I was playing Pearl Lake Ancient.
Also, Jorubai Murk Lurker is a goofy card, but I brought it in all 4 rounds. Its pretty sweet giving PLA lifelink. I would certainly recommend SB'ing 4 of them.
Did you ever bring in Empty the Pits?
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