Thoughtsieze gives me time to set up the "lock".. I need to remove thier rabblemaster on turn 2 because I don't have double blue. also most lists are running more planeswalkers than downfalls and I need to make them go away. furthermore if your hand is so inclinded you can remove downfall and land an ashiok and get to work.
I am well aware drawing it late is the worst thing but that is want raw card draw is for to get past the less useful cards.
I have been struggling a little bit recently in testing.
yeah font is weak.. I did try 1 jace's ingineuity and an extra land instead. sometimes you need to pop them to find some lands, they are still the best early card draw. 4 Dig just seems like overkill I really like cut its saved my arse a few times casting it for 1.
I had too many CitPT lands... will try going to 8 instead of 10.. too many times top decking a tap land when i needed a non tapped land... even Dig through time looking for one and failed once :S. I like my mana balance.. 19 black 18 blue and 8 green.
Font of Fortunes is for draw-go style decks that need to optimize their mana curve. Like Think Twice, it "costs" more, but if you either 1) make no play turn 2, or 2) play Divination with 4 mana in play then Font costs as much or even less than Divination. I wouldn't bother with it if you're running just 4 counterspells, or a bunch of bombs; the card is similar to Think Twice and one relevant if you're holding mana open on their turn as a triple-threat.
This list won a 64 player mtgo event two days ago.
I saw that. I can't figure out if he just didn't have Thoughtseize, or if he truly thought Despise was better. I guess the life is relevant and this is a very creature-heavy meta, but it seems weak to other control decks since Ashiok becomes fairly dead then as well.
Yeah there is some stuff with the deck I don't really get. Only two UB life gain lands, no radiant fountains. I think Empty the Pits is amazing, but if he is using Pearl Lake Ancient as a win con, it leaves more delve for Dig Through Time. I still haven't played with Jace, the Living Guildpact so I don't know how the card draw is. I still think Divination is better than Jace's Ingenuity, I don't full agree with his draw spells, but I guess I can't argue with the results.
This list won a 64 player mtgo event two days ago.
I saw that. I can't figure out if he just didn't have Thoughtseize, or if he truly thought Despise was better. I guess the life is relevant and this is a very creature-heavy meta, but it seems weak to other control decks since Ashiok becomes fairly dead then as well.
Whelming Wave is good as late game it won't bounce your Pearl lake Ancient. In addition, it makes your opponent waste their resources again AND give you a chance to rip any hexproof creatures with Thoughtseize or Despise.
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MTG Junky... First packs being a starter of each 4th Edition and Ice Age. Good Grief, I've been playing since 1995? Where does the time go!
Quote from Xcric »
this is mtgs, where occam's razor is so blunt it can't cut jello any more.
I hate to say it, after having so much love for Supreme Verdict in esper, but there isn't a good board wipe right now. Whelming Wave, Ætherspouts, End Hostilities, all are situational and costly. I think there are plenty ways to play around not having a good board wipe in standard. UB has so much hand disruption and kill spells I think it's okay we don't have a four mana board wipe. I hope control goes the way of UB and stays there.
Just gonna type out some thoughts about a bunch of the cards
Various Delve Cards - Empty the Pits, Dig Through Time, Murderous Cut, Treasure Cruise: UB has a lot of good Delve cards, and it's hard to tell which ones we want and how many we can run. I'm running six, and haven't had that many problems casting them at reasonable times. I think any more would be stretching it, though. As for which ones I run, Murderous Cut actually seems the best one to me, it feels the best to cast without significant delving and is definitely an effect we need, where there are other options for win-cons, so I would prioritize getting as many Murderous Cut in the deck as you want before working on others. Dig is better than Treasure Cruise because I'd really just rather have more selection than one more card, and I run Empty the Pits as my win-con of choice.
Draw Spells - I absolutely HATE Divination. Tapping out on turn 3 to do nothing is a fantastic way to get yourself killed, even Ashiok feels bad sometimes. Casting Divination is way too often the same as letting a Siege Rhino or a Rabblemaster or Mantis Rider or whatever it is go to town on you, and two cards doesn't do much to solve that a lot of the time. Font of Fortunes is, IMO, a lot better. We don't have much to do on turn 2, and it works very well with our counters. Jace's Ingenuity is the card in this list I'm most uncertain of, sometimes it feels great and other times it can be a bit clunky and sit in my hand forever. Dig Through Time is obviously insane.
Discard - 4 Thoughtseize is obvious, I'm also running two Despise, which a lot of the time feels even better than Thoughtseize. Planeswalkers are annoying, some creatures are annoying, why not just get rid of the them? Discard is definitely a strenght, if anything I might want more Despise. Discard is extremely important because this deck sometimes lacks ways to deal with resolved non-creature threats, and we can't rely solely on counterspells.
Removal - 4 Hero's Downfall is obvious. Murderous Cut is powerful, but not ideal to draw in multiples so I wouldn't necessarily run all 4, 3 is fine though. I'm running Bile Blight but haven't been overly impressed by it. It feels like it would be pretty necessary against aggro, but I haven't been playing aggro all that much so maybe that is why I'm not so happy with it.
Counters - Disdainful Strike is pretty awesome, feels good in every non-aggro matchup. I'm only running 2 Dissolve, might want to up the number on that at some point, as it is usually fairly useful. I feel like this is the thing UB is lacking to be really good, there just aren't grade A counters out there right now, but the environment feels weak to counters so I would want to run 8 main if I could.
Win-Cons - Prognostic Sphinx has not impressed me, it seems to be barely any faster at killing people than Ashiok and it requires a lot of maintenance to keep it alive, the scry is "meh". It's hard to envision a world where you go late against a controlly deck and lose with Pearl Lake Ancient, but it is abysmally useless against a lot of decks, which is why I won't main it.
Empty the Pits is nice because it's good on defense as well as offense, though it isn't super powerful against control decks game 1, it actually isn't completely useless against aggro either. Ashiok is really how I win most of my games, about equally often by beating them down with their own creature or by milling.
Returned Phalanx - this card is so awesome out of the board against control or aggro. You certainly don't want it against midrange, but you WILL get wins by bringing in 4 Returned Phalanx against other matchups. Against aggro they control the ground, and they've often boarded out some burn so they tend to stay alive. Against control they're even better, they will probably have brought out all their removal except for Hero's Downfall or whatever they use to kill planeswalkers, and they'll want to be playing tapped lands and draw spells and stuff early, you can kill people really quickly if you get a draw with a Phalanx or two and just rush them down. Even when they're dealt with, you'll often find yourself in much better shape than your opponent by that time.
Anyways, I quite like this deck, I think it's matchup vs Green.midrange is pretty good, post board you have a lot of game vs aggro, control mirrors are pretty easy. The hardest decks I've had to face are black-based BGx midrange types, stuff like Thoughtseize backed up by resilient threats can be extremely difficult to beat.
Thank you for the comment about font of fortunes. Very relevant, very accurate IMO. With it being a slower format, tying up your second turn is going to be alot less detrimental than your third. Plus, people are not very likely to waste their removal on an enchantment of that status.
In addition (for naysayers) you have your 3 CC removal in hand and if they don't present a good creature to kill, pop the font at the end of their turn before you untap. Instant speed abilities are solid. That's why I've been keeping my eye on Weave Fate and Jace's Ingenuity.
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MTG Junky... First packs being a starter of each 4th Edition and Ice Age. Good Grief, I've been playing since 1995? Where does the time go!
Quote from Xcric »
this is mtgs, where occam's razor is so blunt it can't cut jello any more.
I 100% agree with font of fortunes. They are so damn useful early - late game. I have only ever had 1 destroyed at an FNM. (Didn't have the mana to crack it) I might up my number to 3.
I also like the idea of having 7-8 MB counters. ATM I am running 4 dissolve 3 nullify.
I think it is cool how that deck that top8'd the MTGO event has dissapate AND dissolve MB. Also I like the split of 2 Drown in sorrow MB and 2 in the side.
I'd run 4 Dig Through Time and zero Murderous Cut. Between Sphinx and Dig Through Time I literally cycle my entire deck in longer games, so alternate win conditions like Empty the Pits aren't necessary. I also never cast Ætherspouts in a scenario where it wasn't a Griptide, though I left 1 copy in because I'm afraid of leftover tokens from Elspeth or Rabblemaster.
This deck locks people out extremely effectively on the basis of our plays being cheaper and curves lower than them. I wouldn't play any Thoughtseize, as that disrupts that gameplan. You're paying 1 mana to answer a card they paid 0 mana for. I'd rather they sit with their 5 and 6 drops in hand, shuffling them around as if I don't have 2 Annuls in hand and exactly enough to Dig Through Time once it resolves. Most games I cast Thoughtseize in Control decks, I end up taking mana dorks.
Ah I see thanks. I have 3 ATM, and I think that is more than enough. Aetherspouts can be a bit shady at times but it has saved my ass too many times. I dont know if 2 is the right number but I think it defintely has a home here.
I think the Cruise probably should have been Dig. Ashiok is a house. Font is where it's at. Aetherspouts is good, but usually pretty underwhelming. Perhaps they should just be Whelming Wave x2? Maybe Disdainful Stroke x2?
For the most part it depends on matchup and what not. I don't play the deck as "Protect the Queen". If I can jam Ashiok into tapped mana and they untap and downfall, I'm happy with them wasting their turn to do that.
One thing I find this deck to be missing is a Keranos like effect. Some sort of permanent we can put in play and gain residual advantage every turn from it. I'm still in search of a Trading Post, Keranos, or something of the like that can win the game while I counter and kill everything in sight.
I have sagu mauler as a win con.. I am basically just playing opulent palance over backwater and then 2 extra scry lands for temple of mystery.
I keep dying to my own thoughtsieze though... so perhaps the 1 life is relavent...Burn or elivish mystic just slowly attacking me over time. how do you deal with seeker of the way and elvish mystics and whater comes into play before turn 3 in non straight aggro decks (which get hit with drown)
For the most part it depends on matchup and what not. I don't play the deck as "Protect the Queen". If I can jam Ashiok into tapped mana and they untap and downfall, I'm happy with them wasting their turn to do that.
One thing I find this deck to be missing is a Keranos like effect. Some sort of permanent we can put in play and gain residual advantage every turn from it. I'm still in search of a Trading Post, Keranos, or something of the like that can win the game while I counter and kill everything in sight.
I'm curious if anyone has tried splashing red for Keranos. You also get Augury which is probably better than Jace's Ingenuity in a draw-go style deck.
For the most part it depends on matchup and what not. I don't play the deck as "Protect the Queen". If I can jam Ashiok into tapped mana and they untap and downfall, I'm happy with them wasting their turn to do that.
One thing I find this deck to be missing is a Keranos like effect. Some sort of permanent we can put in play and gain residual advantage every turn from it. I'm still in search of a Trading Post, Keranos, or something of the like that can win the game while I counter and kill everything in sight.
I'm curious if anyone has tried splashing red for Keranos. You also get Augury which is probably better than Jace's Ingenuity in a draw-go style deck.
I am certain this is the next step I will try to take. First I am going to test
-2 Cruise -1 Aetherspouts
+2 DtT +1 Empty the Pits
Then I'll be looking towards
-2 Aetherspout
-1 Liliana
-2 Jace's Ingenuity
+4 Steam Augury
+1 Keranos
I keep dying to my own thoughtsieze though... so perhaps the 1 life is relavent...
Yeah, you really don't want targeted discard, but if you do use it Despise is just better. We have just Ashiok that their non-creature/planeswalker spells interact with. Why pay 2 life to have the option to take a Hero's Downfall? Playing a lot of discard with so few ways to capitalize on the temporary chokepoint you create isn't very good. You need a lot more bombs to pull something like that off.
Burn or elivish mystic just slowly attacking me over time. how do you deal with seeker of the way and elvish mystics and whater comes into play before turn 3 in non straight aggro decks (which get hit with drown)
Omenspeaker. Weak magic card, don't get me wrong, but sometime jank can be well positioned. Omenspeaker is also the most maindeckable answer to Aggro.
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I am well aware drawing it late is the worst thing but that is want raw card draw is for to get past the less useful cards.
2 Prognostic Sphinx
2 Sagu mauler
Enchantments
2 Font of fortunes
Spells
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hero's downfall
4 Dissolve
3 Silence the believers
2 Murderous Cut
2 Aetherspouts
2 Bile blight
2 drown in sorrow
2 Dig through time
4 Ashiok, nightmare weaver
Lands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Temple of deciet
4 Opulent palace
2 temple of mystery
2 llanowar wastes
1 Urbog tomb of yawgmoth
4 Island
4 Swamp
2 Drown in sorrow
2 Despise
2 Negate
2 Disdainful stroke
2 Sultai Charm
1 garruk Apex predator
1 empty the pits
1 perilious vault
I have been struggling a little bit recently in testing.
yeah font is weak.. I did try 1 jace's ingineuity and an extra land instead. sometimes you need to pop them to find some lands, they are still the best early card draw. 4 Dig just seems like overkill I really like cut its saved my arse a few times casting it for 1.
I had too many CitPT lands... will try going to 8 instead of 10.. too many times top decking a tap land when i needed a non tapped land... even Dig through time looking for one and failed once :S. I like my mana balance.. 19 black 18 blue and 8 green.
ok I am going to give the 2 of drown in sorrow a go.
Dropped green down to just Sagu mauler nothing like it in straight UB
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
This list won a 64 player mtgo event two days ago.
I saw that. I can't figure out if he just didn't have Thoughtseize, or if he truly thought Despise was better. I guess the life is relevant and this is a very creature-heavy meta, but it seems weak to other control decks since Ashiok becomes fairly dead then as well.
Two Silence the Believers seems good though, I'm only running one.
2 Dig Through Time
4 Disdainful Stroke
2 Dissolve
1 Empty the Pits
4 Hero's Downfall
3 Jace's Ingenuity
3 Murderous Cut
4 Ashiok
2 Despise
4 Thoughtseize
3 Font of Fortunes
4 Dismal Backwater
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained MIre
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Flooded Strand
5 Swamp
4 Island
4 Returned Phalanx
1 Bile Blight
3 Negate
2 Silence the Believers
4 Drown in Sorrow
Just gonna type out some thoughts about a bunch of the cards
Various Delve Cards - Empty the Pits, Dig Through Time, Murderous Cut, Treasure Cruise: UB has a lot of good Delve cards, and it's hard to tell which ones we want and how many we can run. I'm running six, and haven't had that many problems casting them at reasonable times. I think any more would be stretching it, though. As for which ones I run, Murderous Cut actually seems the best one to me, it feels the best to cast without significant delving and is definitely an effect we need, where there are other options for win-cons, so I would prioritize getting as many Murderous Cut in the deck as you want before working on others. Dig is better than Treasure Cruise because I'd really just rather have more selection than one more card, and I run Empty the Pits as my win-con of choice.
Draw Spells - I absolutely HATE Divination. Tapping out on turn 3 to do nothing is a fantastic way to get yourself killed, even Ashiok feels bad sometimes. Casting Divination is way too often the same as letting a Siege Rhino or a Rabblemaster or Mantis Rider or whatever it is go to town on you, and two cards doesn't do much to solve that a lot of the time. Font of Fortunes is, IMO, a lot better. We don't have much to do on turn 2, and it works very well with our counters. Jace's Ingenuity is the card in this list I'm most uncertain of, sometimes it feels great and other times it can be a bit clunky and sit in my hand forever. Dig Through Time is obviously insane.
Discard - 4 Thoughtseize is obvious, I'm also running two Despise, which a lot of the time feels even better than Thoughtseize. Planeswalkers are annoying, some creatures are annoying, why not just get rid of the them? Discard is definitely a strenght, if anything I might want more Despise. Discard is extremely important because this deck sometimes lacks ways to deal with resolved non-creature threats, and we can't rely solely on counterspells.
Removal - 4 Hero's Downfall is obvious. Murderous Cut is powerful, but not ideal to draw in multiples so I wouldn't necessarily run all 4, 3 is fine though. I'm running Bile Blight but haven't been overly impressed by it. It feels like it would be pretty necessary against aggro, but I haven't been playing aggro all that much so maybe that is why I'm not so happy with it.
Counters - Disdainful Strike is pretty awesome, feels good in every non-aggro matchup. I'm only running 2 Dissolve, might want to up the number on that at some point, as it is usually fairly useful. I feel like this is the thing UB is lacking to be really good, there just aren't grade A counters out there right now, but the environment feels weak to counters so I would want to run 8 main if I could.
Win-Cons - Prognostic Sphinx has not impressed me, it seems to be barely any faster at killing people than Ashiok and it requires a lot of maintenance to keep it alive, the scry is "meh". It's hard to envision a world where you go late against a controlly deck and lose with Pearl Lake Ancient, but it is abysmally useless against a lot of decks, which is why I won't main it.
Empty the Pits is nice because it's good on defense as well as offense, though it isn't super powerful against control decks game 1, it actually isn't completely useless against aggro either. Ashiok is really how I win most of my games, about equally often by beating them down with their own creature or by milling.
Returned Phalanx - this card is so awesome out of the board against control or aggro. You certainly don't want it against midrange, but you WILL get wins by bringing in 4 Returned Phalanx against other matchups. Against aggro they control the ground, and they've often boarded out some burn so they tend to stay alive. Against control they're even better, they will probably have brought out all their removal except for Hero's Downfall or whatever they use to kill planeswalkers, and they'll want to be playing tapped lands and draw spells and stuff early, you can kill people really quickly if you get a draw with a Phalanx or two and just rush them down. Even when they're dealt with, you'll often find yourself in much better shape than your opponent by that time.
Anyways, I quite like this deck, I think it's matchup vs Green.midrange is pretty good, post board you have a lot of game vs aggro, control mirrors are pretty easy. The hardest decks I've had to face are black-based BGx midrange types, stuff like Thoughtseize backed up by resilient threats can be extremely difficult to beat.
In addition (for naysayers) you have your 3 CC removal in hand and if they don't present a good creature to kill, pop the font at the end of their turn before you untap. Instant speed abilities are solid. That's why I've been keeping my eye on Weave Fate and Jace's Ingenuity.
I also like the idea of having 7-8 MB counters. ATM I am running 4 dissolve 3 nullify.
I think it is cool how that deck that top8'd the MTGO event has dissapate AND dissolve MB. Also I like the split of 2 Drown in sorrow MB and 2 in the side.
Ah I see thanks. I have 3 ATM, and I think that is more than enough. Aetherspouts can be a bit shady at times but it has saved my ass too many times. I dont know if 2 is the right number but I think it defintely has a home here.
I think the Cruise probably should have been Dig. Ashiok is a house. Font is where it's at. Aetherspouts is good, but usually pretty underwhelming. Perhaps they should just be Whelming Wave x2? Maybe Disdainful Stroke x2?
R1 Junk Reanimator (2-0)
R2 Esper Control (2-1)
R3 Rabble Red (2-0)
R4 Jeskai Burn (2-0)
Deck felt dominant all night. Ashiok ripping off value creatures, then getting to play them and sitting on dissolve is just gross.
Are you casting Ashiok on turn 3? Or waiting for enough mana to counter and cast?
U Mono U Tron
WR Boros Burn with one Stomping Ground
UR Storm
C Eldrazi Powder
G Mono Green Tron
One thing I find this deck to be missing is a Keranos like effect. Some sort of permanent we can put in play and gain residual advantage every turn from it. I'm still in search of a Trading Post, Keranos, or something of the like that can win the game while I counter and kill everything in sight.
I have sagu mauler as a win con.. I am basically just playing opulent palance over backwater and then 2 extra scry lands for temple of mystery.
I keep dying to my own thoughtsieze though... so perhaps the 1 life is relavent...Burn or elivish mystic just slowly attacking me over time. how do you deal with seeker of the way and elvish mystics and whater comes into play before turn 3 in non straight aggro decks (which get hit with drown)
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
I'm curious if anyone has tried splashing red for Keranos. You also get Augury which is probably better than Jace's Ingenuity in a draw-go style deck.
I am certain this is the next step I will try to take. First I am going to test
-2 Cruise -1 Aetherspouts
+2 DtT +1 Empty the Pits
Then I'll be looking towards
-2 Aetherspout
-1 Liliana
-2 Jace's Ingenuity
+4 Steam Augury
+1 Keranos
Yeah, you really don't want targeted discard, but if you do use it Despise is just better. We have just Ashiok that their non-creature/planeswalker spells interact with. Why pay 2 life to have the option to take a Hero's Downfall? Playing a lot of discard with so few ways to capitalize on the temporary chokepoint you create isn't very good. You need a lot more bombs to pull something like that off.
Omenspeaker. Weak magic card, don't get me wrong, but sometime jank can be well positioned. Omenspeaker is also the most maindeckable answer to Aggro.