I find your 3 Satyr Wayfinder very interesting. It's the card I like least in the deck, and basically the card that you *have* to play to set up awesome Murderous Cut and Whip of Erebos plays. However, 8 is too many enabler cards. I think I'd rather have the 23rd land the same way you do.
I managed to get some good testing in vs Sultai graveyard, and sadly, Agent of Erebos is not a good card. It certainly resets their graveyard, but that basically doesn't matter because they have already got value from the mill by virtue of the 2/2 zombie tokens. What we *really* want is to control the board, and the way to do that is with the 4th Doomwake Giant since being able to sweep their board every turn or so is better. And in terms of answering an opposing Whip, Pharika already does an ok job of it.
I've also been thinking of going up to a 9th mana bug, either over the 23rd land or the 3rd Whip. Whip is awesome and all, bu it's incredibly clunky (almost an 8 mana sorcery). I've found it plays more like a 6-drop than a 4-drop, since I invariably want something that impacts the board more. Running a misers Rattleclaw Mystic can help us punch our way up to 5 or 7 mana ahead of schedule if played as a morph.
In your white splash, I really like the Banishing Light, but I'm much less sanguine about Siege Rhino. For me at least, that's a card that I feel the metagame has fully adjusted to sitting down against (a bit like Goblin Rabblemaster). Vs control decks I'd rather have more Eidolon of Blossoms and vs aggro, more Doomwakes.
I think you're missing out by not running at least 1 Murderous Cut maindeck. There's so much rubbish that you mill that it's basically a black Swords for us (I typically tap all my lands and play it off a carytid, which tends to surprise opponents for some reason).
I find your 3 Satyr Wayfinder very interesting. It's the card I like least in the deck, and basically the card that you *have* to play to set up awesome Murderous Cut and Whip of Erebos plays. However, 8 is too many enabler cards. I think I'd rather have the 23rd land the same way you do.
I managed to get some good testing in vs Sultai graveyard, and sadly, Agent of Erebos is not a good card. It certainly resets their graveyard, but that basically doesn't matter because they have already got value from the mill by virtue of the 2/2 zombie tokens. What we *really* want is the 4th Doomwake Giant since being able to sweep their board every turn or so is better. And in terms of answering an opposing Whip, Pharika already does an ok job of it.
I've also been thinking of going up to a 9th mana bug, either over the 23rd land or the 3rd Whip. Whip is awesome and all, bu it's incredibly clunky (almost an 8 mana sorcery). I've found it plays more like a 6-drop than a 4-drop, since I invariably want something that impacts the board more.
In your white splash, I really like the Banishing Light, but I'm much less sanguine about Siege Rhino. For me at least, that's a card that I feel the metagame has fully adjusted to sitting down against (a bit like Goblin Rabblemaster). Vs control decks I'd rather have more Eidolon of Blossoms and vs aggro, more Doomwakes.
I think you're missing out by not running at least 1 Murderous Cut maindeck. There's so much rubbish that you mill that it's basically a black Swords for us (I typically tap all my lands and play it off a carytid, which tends to surprise opponents for some reason).
I did like running Murderous Cut when I was playing BG, and I would like to find room for it somewhere, but I don't think I'd drop Banishing Light for it, if only because without it I'm at 13 enchantments, which makes Eidolon and Doomwake worse. This could still be the right move anyways, especially because I'd be less vulnerable to the enchantment hate that will be coming out of the woodwork against us. Back to Nature is a pretty terrifying card.
I view Satyr Wayfinder similarly to you---it's the worst, but necessary card in the deck. I'm sticking with a 3/3 split of Elvish Mystic and Wayfinder because Wayfinder's ability to fill up the graveyard is still very relevant, and getting an actual land is pretty important in a deck where you run the risk of drawing few of them.
The clunkiness of Whip of Erebos that you mentioned is actually part of what prompted me to try out adding white, which is because Siege Rhino just works excellently with Whip of Erebos. One of the issues I had playing BG was that Whip of Erebos didn't really do much on it's own, as the lifegain was nice but not really that important early on, but if Whip of Erebos follows up a Siege Rhino, that's 4 life a turn you stand to start gaining. The combination of Rhino and Whip adds an enourmous amount of inevitability and gives the deck time it needs to set up. It's also a threat that won't die to Back to Nature or Erase. I could honestly only splash white for Siege Rhino, as it just adds so much for the deck.
In the end, though, I don't think this is a case where either version is definitely better than the other. Murderous Cut is awesome, and BG has stronger Constellation chains possible.
When I decided to try out Siege Rhino, I put in 3 to test initially, but I found that I wanted it every game on turn 4, or 3 if possible, so I moved to 4 copies, and adjusted accordingly. I went down to 3 Eidolon because Eidolon of Blossoms, Siege Rhino, and Whip of Erebos all sharing a spot on the curve was a little awkward, and turn 3/4 Siege Rhino gives me more of an ability to choose my role in a given game, whereas turn 3/4 Eidolon tends to accept a more defensive role. Siege Rhino is also in general better on the draw against an aggressive deck, so it won out on having a playset over Eidolon of Blossoms. I do not, however, care for the decks that go down to one Eidolon, as you give up a significant amount of draw power.
2 Doomwake Giant I've since gone back on. I'm currently testing out 3 Doomwake Giant and 2 Hornet Queen, as the more Doomwake Giants in a deck, the more powerful the card becomes. Siege Rhino also lessens the need to immediately find a Hornet Queen, as it is another high-power whip target.
But once you add Seige Rhino to the deck, you're making the constellation aspect less powerful and less consistent.
At what point does it become better to just run an Azban goodstuff deck instead?
Indeed, adding Siege Rhino does make me run fewer cards with Constellation on them, but it doesn't really lessen the consistency of the Constellation plan that much. If I took out the Rhino, I would likely be running 4 Eidolon of Blossoms and 3 Doomwake Giant. So though the Constellation effects go from 7 to 6, the amount of enchantments I run stays fairly constant, because of Banishing Light. So though I go down an Eidolon of Blossoms, my enchantment count actually has a net increase because of the addition of Banishing Light, bringing me to 17 enchantments versus the 15 or 16 that this archetype normally runs. I lose a single Constellation effect, but the deck's overall support for Constellation increases slightly as well. Eidolon of Blossoms is also one of my more popular choices with Commune with the Gods, as it's the most useless of the midrange creatures in the graveyard, so I haven't really had a problem with having one when I need it.
As for the second part of your post, I'm pretty far from Abzan Midrange, despite sharing colors. Siege Rhino is arguably better in this deck than it is in Abzan Midrange, as it has the support of Whip of Erebos. Not that I'm saying this deck is better than Abzan Midrange in all aspects, but in this particular one, Siege Rhino has added functionality in this archetype. Moving to Abzan Midrange would remove that functionality, and take away the very reason I want to run Siege Rhino in the first place.
Siege Rhino is being added to help support the Constellation theme, as it gives us more time to chain Constellation effects. If Siege Rhino puts a damper on the opponent's early aggression, I can play Eidolon of Blossoms and start getting value more safely. Eidolon of Blossoms is also a magnet for removal, but if Siege Rhino is also there, it forces the opponent to have to choose between removing a card advantage engine or the threat that might be actively killing them. With Siege Rhino, Doomwake Giant's -1/-1 ability gets extra utility beyond killing x/1s when it comes into play because it can allow me to get attacks in with Siege Rhino immediately into a field that normally might not have been a good one to attack into.
If I found that I wanted to add Wingmate Roc, or some planeswalkers, then I would be stepping closer to Abzan Midrange, but there isn't really another card from that deck I feel compelled to run. Wingmate Roc is the closest, but it doesn't really provide anything this deck needs, and the raid trigger would be awkward unless I had a Siege Rhino in the first place. With Siege Rhino in the deck, I don't really need any more lifegain, and Hornet Queen does all the work I need in the skies. I don't need planeswalkers, as my late game is strong enough. Despite the addition of the marquee card from Abzan Midrange, the deck is still very much a seperate entity.
Has anyone tested or at least considered using Kruphix's Insight in the place of Commune? In a more Constellation-dedicated build that runs some number of Brain Maggots (and maybe even other less optimal enchantment creatures*), it could provide some neat card advantage. On that note, some of the less optimal creatures such as Boon Satyr and Nighthowler are neat for bestowing your Satyrs and Mystics for virtual CA or pushing through midrange stall fests. Nighthowler is especially interesting in the mirror or any other deck that runs Satyr Wayfinder or mill cards such as Sidisi.
Has anyone tested or at least considered using Kruphix's Insight in the place of Commune? In a more Constellation-dedicated build that runs some number of Brain Maggots (and maybe even other less optimal enchantment creatures*), it could provide some neat card advantage. On that note, some of the less optimal creatures such as Boon Satyr and Nighthowler are neat for bestowing your Satyrs and Mystics for virtual CA or pushing through midrange stall fests. Nighthowler is especially interesting in the mirror or any other deck that runs Satyr Wayfinder or mill cards such as Sidisi.
I think Kruphix's Insight is too expensive to be worthy of consideration. And all of the other cards you list I don't run, so I feel like they would be making my deck worse by displacing better cards. What would you cut to fit them in? Courser? Doomwake? Hornet Queen?
Siege Rhino is being added to help support the Constellation theme, as it gives us more time to chain Constellation effects. If Siege Rhino puts a damper on the opponent's early aggression, I can play Eidolon of Blossoms and start getting value more safely. Eidolon of Blossoms is also a magnet for removal, but if Siege Rhino is also there, it forces the opponent to have to choose between removing a card advantage engine or the threat that might be actively killing them. With Siege Rhino, Doomwake Giant's -1/-1 ability gets extra utility beyond killing x/1s when it comes into play because it can allow me to get attacks in with Siege Rhino immediately into a field that normally might not have been a good one to attack into.
The more I look the more I see that your build isn't fundamentally different from my list despite the 7 white cards. I'll have to try it out. Is Erase really the only SB option you gain?
Don't be ridiculous. Of course I'm not going to replace the power cards that constitute the fundamental core of the deck. I was suggesting using them in place of other cards that are less needed. The current philosophy behind the deck relies on having an abundance of mana in the form of either accel through mana dorks or ensuring drops on time with Wayfinder. Accordingly, most successful lists focus on having a high number of high end threats that are more powerful in midrange mirrors but are slower to setup. A playset of Sylvan Caryatid seems to be the norm in most lists, but I feel that in conjunction with a playset of Mystics and Wayfinders, we have too much mana finding/accel and lose potential threat density and just do too much nothing early on. This is a common problem that Junk Rites lists had during the INN/RTR standard where most lists running up to 8 mana dorks alongside 4 Mulch would often have starting hands filled with little to no threat density. Although Caryatid is useful for mana-fixing and blocking against aggro decks, the former should never be an issue in a pure GB list though it might be worth considering in a BGx list (although from personal testing, I found that it hasn't been if the splash is very light such as Admiral Sultan's Abzan's list) and the latter is only a minor utility.
Brain Maggot, on the other hand, is useful if not optimal in many matchups. Against Jeskai Tempo, your Maggot can steal their threats which forces them to waste burn on it or at least 1-for-1 a burn spell. Though Maggot usually ends up being a 1-for-1 either way, it at least is a slight tempo gain because it forces your opponent to actually use mana to cast the removal to get their threat back. The same concept applies in Midrange matches where Maggot can remove threats and force your opponent to spend removal. It's a pseudo-Thoughtseize that will usually be a 1-for-1 so it's fairly self-explanatory. It's only really weak against Control lists or lists that can run boardwipes, in the mirror or any deck that runs Doomwake, and against Monored, but even against Monored it can usually trade through combat. Additionally, Brain Maggots act as cheap Constellation triggers and increase your target density for Kruphix's Insight.
Kruphix's Insight isn't so much more expensive that it should automatically be dismissed without consideration. Right now, the majority of lists are saturated with 2 drops between Wayfinder, Commune, and Caryatid which is useful as Commune and Wayfinder set up your yard so you can play another 2 drop on T3 and have mana up for Murderous Cut. However, if instead of Caryatid we play Maggot, we could proactively (though most likely temporarily) remove the threat and ensure that we can utilize our full three mana on Kruphix instead. If we do play Caryatid, we could still have 4 mana on T3 and have mana up for both Murderous Cut and Kruphix. From what I've tested, Kruphix just swings midrange matches in your favor because of the card advantage it can provide, which incidentally also synergizes well with chaining Constellation triggers. I could be completely wrong though as Wayfinder/Commune T2 followed by a T3 Murderous Cut or Courser is still a very solid and consistent play.
Nighthowler, though strong in the mirror and any deck that mills itself (Wayfinder/Sidisi) from the mid to late game, is often a do nothing or mediocre card so it might not warrant any spots in the board so it's understandable that he would be overlooked. I personally have been testing 2 Main and I still feel ambivalent about him. If I can draw him after T5/6 when both players have an established board, he's very useful for breaking through boardstalls, but drawing him early game might prove to be too much of a downside.
Don't be ridiculous. Of course I'm not going to replace the power cards that constitute the fundamental core of the deck. I was suggesting using them in place of other cards that are less needed. The current philosophy behind the deck relies on having an abundance of mana in the form of either accel through mana dorks or ensuring drops on time with Wayfinder. Accordingly, most successful lists focus on having a high number of high end threats that are more powerful in midrange mirrors but are slower to setup. A playset of Sylvan Caryatid seems to be the norm in most lists, but I feel that in conjunction with a playset of Mystics and Wayfinders, we have too much mana finding/accel and lose potential threat density and just do too much nothing early on. This is a common problem that Junk Rites lists had during the INN/RTR standard where most lists running up to 8 mana dorks alongside 4 Mulch would often have starting hands filled with little to no threat density. Although Caryatid is useful for mana-fixing and blocking against aggro decks, the former should never be an issue in a pure GB list though it might be worth considering in a BGx list (although from personal testing, I found that it hasn't been if the splash is very light such as Admiral Sultan's Abzan's list) and the latter is only a minor utility.
Sorry you thought my suggestions were 'ridiculous'. I agree that those are important cards, which is why I disagreed with cutting them. Your list I think seems glacially slow. You'r;e basically locked into playing a single constellation card a turn, at a speed where the opponent can easily answer/trump/race them.
Brain Maggot, on the other hand, is useful if not optimal in many matchups. Against Jeskai Tempo, your Maggot can steal their threats which forces them to waste burn on it or at least 1-for-1 a burn spell. Though Maggot usually ends up being a 1-for-1 either way, it at least is a slight tempo gain because it forces your opponent to actually use mana to cast the removal to get their threat back.
It's not a tempo gain if they use a spell that costs 2 or less mana to kill the maggot.
The same concept applies in Midrange matches where Maggot can remove threats and force your opponent to spend removal. It's a pseudo-Thoughtseize that will usually be a 1-for-1 so it's fairly self-explanatory. It's only really weak against Control lists or lists that can run boardwipes, in the mirror or any deck that runs Doomwake, and against Monored, but even against Monored it can usually trade through combat. Additionally, Brain Maggots act as cheap Constellation triggers and increase your target density for Kruphix's Insight.
The problem I have with Maggot (and also Satyr) is that his 1/1 body is basically irrelevant. So he's not worth a card.
Kruphix's Insight isn't so much more expensive that it should automatically be dismissed without consideration. Right now, the majority of lists are saturated with 2 drops between Wayfinder, Commune, and Caryatid which is useful as Commune and Wayfinder set up your yard so you can play another 2 drop on T3 and have mana up for Murderous Cut. However, if instead of Caryatid we play Maggot, we could proactively (though most likely temporarily) remove the threat and ensure that we can utilize our full three mana on Kruphix instead. If we do play Caryatid, we could still have 4 mana on T3 and have mana up for both Murderous Cut and Kruphix. From what I've tested, Kruphix just swings midrange matches in your favor because of the card advantage it can provide, which incidentally also synergizes well with chaining Constellation triggers. I could be completely wrong though as Wayfinder/Commune T2 followed by a T3 Murderous Cut or Courser is still a very solid and consistent play.
Cutting carytid will slow the deck down a lot. And running Kruphix's Insight will compound that further by being even slower.
Nighthowler, though strong in the mirror and any deck that mills itself (Wayfinder/Sidisi) from the mid to late game, is often a do nothing or mediocre card so it might not warrant any spots in the board so it's understandable that he would be overlooked. I personally have been testing 2 Main and I still feel ambivalent about him. If I can draw him after T5/6 when both players have an established board, he's very useful for breaking through boardstalls, but drawing him early game might prove to be too much of a downside.
This deck doesn't have a problem going long. It has a problem getting raced or having it's constellation cards removed without value.
Don't be ridiculous. Of course I'm not going to replace the power cards that constitute the fundamental core of the deck. I was suggesting using them in place of other cards that are less needed. The current philosophy behind the deck relies on having an abundance of mana in the form of either accel through mana dorks or ensuring drops on time with Wayfinder. Accordingly, most successful lists focus on having a high number of high end threats that are more powerful in midrange mirrors but are slower to setup. A playset of Sylvan Caryatid seems to be the norm in most lists, but I feel that in conjunction with a playset of Mystics and Wayfinders, we have too much mana finding/accel and lose potential threat density and just do too much nothing early on. This is a common problem that Junk Rites lists had during the INN/RTR standard where most lists running up to 8 mana dorks alongside 4 Mulch would often have starting hands filled with little to no threat density. Although Caryatid is useful for mana-fixing and blocking against aggro decks, the former should never be an issue in a pure GB list though it might be worth considering in a BGx list (although from personal testing, I found that it hasn't been if the splash is very light such as Admiral Sultan's Abzan's list) and the latter is only a minor utility.
Sorry you thought my suggestions were 'ridiculous'. I agree that those are important cards, which is why I disagreed with cutting them. Your list I think seems glacially slow. You'r;e basically locked into playing a single constellation card a turn, at a speed where the opponent can easily answer/trump/race them.
Your "suggestions" that I was referring to was the absurdly fallacious line of reasoning that to make room for Brain Maggots, I had to be cutting the core cards of the deck instead of other less necessary cards which I explicitly stated already that I would not be cutting so I hope it's not too hard to understand why I asserted that your "suggestion" was ridiculous.
Also, could you explain to me how exactly my list is "glacially slow?" I cut the Caryatids and replaced the Communes with Kruphix's Insight, and I explained my reasoning for doing so already. Provided that you have 1 Caryatid on board, it would only accelerate you by a turn and with all your relevant Constellation cards being 3 or higher, you won't be casting more than 1 Constellation most of the time anyway and you definitely wouldn't want to waste mana casting extra Caryatids that may not even be able to block efficiently when you're in the range to cast Courser et al. I would appreciate a more thorough discussion than just blanket statements.
Brain Maggot, on the other hand, is useful if not optimal in many matchups. Against Jeskai Tempo, your Maggot can steal their threats which forces them to waste burn on it or at least 1-for-1 a burn spell. Though Maggot usually ends up being a 1-for-1 either way, it at least is a slight tempo gain because it forces your opponent to actually use mana to cast the removal to get their threat back.
It's not a tempo gain if they use a spell that costs 2 or less mana to kill the maggot.
No, but it can slow them down from casting their threat which is its primary utility. Besides, how many relevant 1 cost removals are there? If you're talking about Murderous Cut, only Sidisi Whip and the mirror run more than a singleton, which I would be thrilled to see them waste on a Maggot instead of a Courser or a Doomwake, etc.
The same concept applies in Midrange matches where Maggot can remove threats and force your opponent to spend removal. It's a pseudo-Thoughtseize that will usually be a 1-for-1 so it's fairly self-explanatory. It's only really weak against Control lists or lists that can run boardwipes, in the mirror or any deck that runs Doomwake, and against Monored, but even against Monored it can usually trade through combat. Additionally, Brain Maggots act as cheap Constellation triggers and increase your target density for Kruphix's Insight.
The problem I have with Maggot (and also Satyr) is that his 1/1 body is basically irrelevant. So he's not worth a card.
The thing is, Maggots are NEVER used for blocking unless they can actually trade, which incidentally is something I mentioned would only occur against mono red decks. They're pseudo-Thoughtseizes that can often be 1-for-1s and are mediocre in aggro matchups, but that's what the sideboard is for.
Kruphix's Insight isn't so much more expensive that it should automatically be dismissed without consideration. Right now, the majority of lists are saturated with 2 drops between Wayfinder, Commune, and Caryatid which is useful as Commune and Wayfinder set up your yard so you can play another 2 drop on T3 and have mana up for Murderous Cut. However, if instead of Caryatid we play Maggot, we could proactively (though most likely temporarily) remove the threat and ensure that we can utilize our full three mana on Kruphix instead. If we do play Caryatid, we could still have 4 mana on T3 and have mana up for both Murderous Cut and Kruphix. From what I've tested, Kruphix just swings midrange matches in your favor because of the card advantage it can provide, which incidentally also synergizes well with chaining Constellation triggers. I could be completely wrong though as Wayfinder/Commune T2 followed by a T3 Murderous Cut or Courser is still a very solid and consistent play.
Cutting carytid will slow the deck down a lot. And running Kruphix's Insight will compound that further by being even slower.
Could you define "a lot" or at least give a more quantitative rationale? Caryatid will slow down your deck by a few turns at most unless you happen to be opening multiples in the first few turns, which I would consider to be less than ideal. He's dropped on T2 and can accelerate you into a T3 Eidolon and a T4 Doomwake (or even T3 with Mystic), but I don't think she really accelerates your game plan by so much that thrae deck loses enough speed to just die against aggro decks. Granted, her 3 Toughness is very useful in fending off early swarms, but I think that between Courser and Doomwake, we can usually stabilize fairly well except against the fastest aggro hands. Kruphix's Insight, though slower than Commune by 1 turn, is so much more potent past T2. Commune can ensure that you have a T3 Courser and lets you keep non-enchantment creatures (the only relevant one being Hornet Queen at the moment), but aside from that, the 1 mana difference has rarely been much of a problem. Besides, Whip mitigates the former and the latter is only really relevant before you reach your "critical turn" to start chaining Constellations. If you're at that point of the game, you've more than likely stabilized against aggro or are about to start playing the stall/grind fest in midrange matchups in which having the potential for getting more value off of an Insight can be game-breaking.
Nighthowler, though strong in the mirror and any deck that mills itself (Wayfinder/Sidisi) from the mid to late game, is often a do nothing or mediocre card so it might not warrant any spots in the board so it's understandable that he would be overlooked. I personally have been testing 2 Main and I still feel ambivalent about him. If I can draw him after T5/6 when both players have an established board, he's very useful for breaking through boardstalls, but drawing him early game might prove to be too much of a downside.
This deck doesn't have a problem going long. It has a problem getting raced or having it's constellation cards removed without value.
I'm well aware of that. I was testing two because I'm expecting midrange matches where racing occurs during midgame or later which is incidentally the stage of the game in which Nighthowler becomes a relevant threat that can give you an edge. Against aggro decks, I think the current package of Courser, Whip, and Doomwake is sufficient to stabilize and against GRx monster lists with flying, I think the Hornet Queens + Arbor Colossi in the side are enough.
The Sideboard is still a WIP mostly because I have yet to acquire Thoughtseizes and Nissas.
Your list somehow seems to have less early game *and* less late game than mine.
Could you please provide a concise rationale for saying so? The early game difference seems negligible as it consists of the difference between dropping a Caryatid and having a slightly earlier Eidolon or Doomwake Giant or dropping a Brain Maggot and potentially taking away your opponent's most relevant card. In the case of the latter, if your opponent spends mana casting removal for your Maggot, you've essentially gained an extra turn anyway. As for the late game, I wholly disagree. Do you think the difference beetween having a playset of Caryatids or a playset of Maggots somehow gives you more late game explosiveness because it will enable more devotion shenanigans? As I've previously asserted, I don't believe that having a few extra Caryatids on the board really gives you that much more explosiveness for casting multiple spells because at most you'll have 4 more mana to cast one more relevant spell. And even if you did have more Caryatids, you're essentially replacing actual threats with more mana dorks. I consider the only situation in which Caryatids really contribute that much to your gameplan to be when you have Nykthos to start chaining Constellation triggers, which I admit that your list would do more consistently with 2 Nykthos (which I intend to rectify when I obtain a second one).
Edit: My keyboard is acting up and cutting words off/changing their locations so some words/phrases might not make sense.
@Magicmerl: I need to comb through standard cards to make sure, but Erase is the only thing that immediately jumps out at me. Fleecemane Lion is definitely a consideration for when we need pressure or early defense. Anafenza, the Foremost is a possible card against other whip decks. I'll admit, I need to look into this a lot more.
@AsianGuy1137: On a general note, I do agree that we need to be careful about how many mana accelerants we run. I tend to like around 8 or 9 cards dedicated to finding lands or ramping in these lists. More than 10, and you run the risk at having hands full of set-up and nothing else, hands that sputter if the opponent has removal, or horrible topdecks in the late game. These cards are important, as we're on the slower side, but we don't want to go overboard.
On the subject of Kruphix's Insight, I tested it out for a while. Though the effect is powerful, I found 3 mana to be a bit of an awkward spot. At that time, I'd rather be casting a Courser of Kruphix, or playing a 4-drop if I accelerated into it. Commune with the Gods gives us more flexibility, giving us an early play if it's needed, and it lets me set up plays that involve casting it and another card in the same turn more easily. It also opens the possible turn 3 play of casting Commune with the Gods and then casting Murderous Cut when the opponent plays a Mantis Rider or something. Kruphix's Insight can also randomly fail in places where you need it to, as it can't grab Hornet Queen if that's what you happen to need, or if you need to find a mana dork/Satyr Wayfinder. With a white splash, it's unable to find Siege Rhino. I prefer the flexibility, consistency, and lower mana cost of Commune with the Gods over the possibility of getting more cards. Besides, this deck doesn't really have a big problem with running out of resources. I did see a very interesting constellation deck that top 16'ed a SCG open, and it ran somewhere around 27 enchantments or something insane that got great use out of Kruphix's Insight, but I don't think this is really the place for it.
As for Nighthowler, I did consider it. The issue with it that I found, however, is twofold. On the one hand, it has some antisynergy with the deck. Pharika, Murderous Cut, and Whip of Erebos all remove cards from the graveyard, two of these specifically taking out creatures. Luckily it counts the opponent's creatures as well, but it's still a little unstable. On the other hand, and you alluded to this in your post, it's not really doing anything the deck wants. If we wanted bigger creatures, we could pretty easily get that, being in green. He's only useful early on if we cast an enabler spell, and later on in the game we tend to have momentum going enough that a large beater isn't really what we need.
As for Brain Maggot, the card served me well in different Constellation builds. I do like the card, but I'm not sure this is really the place for it. When turn 2 rolls around, I'd rather play a mana accelerant to get out an early Eidolon of Blossoms or Whip of Erebos. It also tends to get worse game 2 and 3, as the decks that can will be siding in sweepers against us, and Brain Maggot is at it's absolute worst if it's killed by a sweeper. This deck needs to have some disruption maindeck, or else be taken down by a threat we couldn't deal with, but I think Brain Maggot doesn't provide the acceleration or raw power this deck is generally looking for.
@Admiral, I tried out your BGw list, and the white cards were/are pretty sweet. Some thoughts:
1. Satyr Wayfinder really sucks in your build, since there's no Murderous Cuts. I'd snapswap one out for the 4th Elvish Mystic, the 4th Eidolon of Blossoms and a misers Murderous Cut. (and if you do that, you can fit the 4th Arbor Colossus into the SB over a cut)
2. If you don't draw a Carytid you *really* struggle vs Goblin Rabblemaster. And your SB doesn't offer much hope either.
Also, could you explain to me how exactly my list is "glacially slow?"
I already find that my build doesn't do enough to impact the board, and that a 2/2 for 4 and a 4/6 for 5 are durdly. But I can at least consistently cast them a turn earlier. Cutting Carytid for Maggot disrupts the opponent, but it doesn't advance your own board in any meaningful way.
[b]No, but it can slow them down from casting their threat which is its primary utility.
It's only really relevant if you disrupt their curve. Jeskai is full of so many redundant cards that it doesn't matter much if you take their Mantis Rider if they can play a Goblin Rabblemaster instead.
[b]Could you define "a lot" or at least give a more quantitative rationale? Caryatid will slow down your deck by a few turns at most unless you happen to be opening multiples in the first few turns, which I would consider to be less than ideal.
Sure. In most games T2 your ideal play is carytid, then Mystic, then satyr, then commune. Your build takes away the best T2 play (you are pretty unreliable to get to 4 mana on turn 3, basically needing a Mystic to survive).
I don't think she really accelerates your game plan by so much that thrae deck loses enough speed to just die against aggro decks.
Well, you will know better than me how well your deck does vs rabble red. I find that I'm frequently waanting to throw out a doomwake as early as possible to stabilise.
Kruphix's Insight, though slower than Commune by 1 turn, is so much more potent past T2. Commune can ensure that you have a T3 Courser and lets you keep non-enchantment creatures (the only relevant one being Hornet Queen at the moment), but aside from that, the 1 mana difference has rarely been much of a problem. Besides, Whip mitigates the former and the latter is only really relevant before you reach your "critical turn" to start chaining Constellations. If you're at that point of the game, you've more than likely stabilized against aggro or are about to start playing the stall/grind fest in midrange matchups in which having the potential for getting more value off of an Insight can be game-breaking.[/b]
Well, let's do the math on Insight. You have 21 enchantments in the deck and going 6 cards deep, you're going to average 2 constellation cards. Is that worth a whole extra mana?
[b]Could you please provide a concise rationale for saying so?
Sure. I'm regarding the early game as ramping to our midgame cards. Since you have dropped carytid you of course ramp to the midgame more slowly. And then once we get to the midgame the cards that overwhelm the opponent are Whip, Doomwake and Queen. And I run more copies of all of them than you. So I have more of the cards that matter in my deck. I guess you could make the arguement that Insight gives you more functional copies of those cards. So perhaps I was overstating my point by saying that.
The early game difference seems negligible as it consists of the difference between dropping a Caryatid and having a slightly earlier Eidolon or Doomwake Giant or dropping a Brain Maggot and potentially taking away your opponent's most relevant card.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that being a negligible difference.
Do you think the difference beetween having a playset of Caryatids or a playset of Maggots somehow gives you more late game explosiveness because it will enable more devotion shenanigans? As I've previously asserted, I don't believe that having a few extra Caryatids on the board really gives you that much more explosiveness for casting multiple spells because at most you'll have 4 more mana to cast one more relevant spell. And even if you did have more Caryatids, you're essentially replacing actual threats with more mana dorks. I consider the only situation in which Caryatids really contribute that much to your gameplan to be when you have Nykthos to start chaining Constellation triggers, which I admit that your list would do more consistently with 2 Nykthos (which I intend to rectify when I obtain a second one).[/b]
No, as I said earlier my comments about the late game related to the 4+ mana cards in the deck.
I definitely agree on the Wayfinders. I was keeping them in for Whip of Erebos, but it's possible Whip is fueled enough by Commune with the Gods and creatures just dying. I'll test the build without the Wayfinders to see how fewer enablers goes.
Alternatively, I could go down on Banishing Lights, add some Murderous Cuts, and keep in Wayfinders. I'll try both options.
As I tested, I found that we really, really need to be running Murderous Cut. Taking them out ended up being absolutely horrible, and I'm glad to have them in again. Murderous Cut gives us game against the very fast heroic aggro decks, as we can cast it turn 3 after a Wayfinder or a Commune with the Gods, letting us interrupt them before they get totally out of control. I played a few matches against Jeskai Heroic Combo, and if not for Murderous Cut, I would have lost both. Thanks to it, I could disrupt their combo and go on to win both matches.
The biggest change to this version of the deck is the sideboard. I'm trying something somewhat different here, and it's been working so far in the games I've been playing on Cockatrice. I found that cards like Arbor Colossus definitely worked, but I wanted to try out a different approach to sideboarding with this deck. Against aggressive decks, our absolute best card is Whip of Erebos. So I wanted to take advantage of the static lifegain effect that Whip of Erebos offers, and try out playing early above-curve creatures like Fleecemane Lion and Anafenza, the Foremost to apply pressure or act as roadblocks for the fast aggro decks. Fleecemane Lion into a Courser or Anafenza into a Whip of Erebos is usually going to be game over. The aggro decks of this format are focusing on being explosive in order to beat out the Siege Rhinos of the world, so after sideboarding I want to have more relevant plays early so that I can survive long enough to drop the Siege Rhinos and Doomwake Giants that can shut down the game.
There are better strictly anti-aggro cards out there, but where Fleecemane Lion and Anafenza shine is that they're relevant in other matchups. Against control decks, we're too durdly to apply any real pressure, but the Lion and Anafenza are great early attackers that can demand answers, protecting our later bigger creatures. Anafenza is also relevant against other Whip decks, as she incidentally hoses Whip of Erebos and Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
The rest of the sideboard is more standard. Hero's Downfall comes in when I need some more removal. The 4th Whip of Erebos is there to come in for the matchups where Whip of Erebos is vital to winning. Pharika moved from the mainboard to the sideboard, and Erase remains for Jeskai Combo decks and the mirror.
While putting together this sideboard I wanted to avoid as much as I could adding in cards that were negated by what the opponents might be siding in. Abzan Midrange is going to want to bring in sweepers against us, so Thoughtsieze and Pharika aren't hurt by those at all, and in fact fight against them. Jeskai Tempo is going to want to add in Disdainful Strokes, most everything I side in--aside from the 4th Whip--ducks under that. I liked Nylea's Disciple and Arbor Colossus against Jeskai, but they were often prepared for those. Hushwing Gryff is also incidentally a very good card against us, so Nylea's Disciple was even less appealing.
I've played several matches with this list, and I've found that we have good matchups against the midrange decks, especially if we can Whip back a Hornet Queen early on, and aggro also feels pretty good. We'll lose to the absolute nut draws like everyone else, but this deck packs so much beef and lifegaining power, along with a good amount of removal, that I tend to win more games than I lose, especially after sideboarding.
I hope Jeskai Heroic Combo ends up being more popular than 4-color Jeskai Ascendancy, because we have game against the first and NOT against the second. Game 1 is a bit dicey, and though I'm not too worried about the aggro part of the deck, the combo can come out of nowhere and kill us. Murderous Cut and Banishing Light are essential in this matchup. After sideboarding, things get better with more removal, Erase, and more ways to stall their early aggression and force them to use pump spells. Against the dedicated versions of the deck that just try and combo off with mana dorks, however, game 1 is almost unwinnable. Thankfully, that version seems much less popular.
Our absolute worst matchup, by far, is UB Control. We have a lot of do-nothing spells against them, and we take long enough to set up that they can wait and then just play draw-go and run us into the ground. Sideboarding fixes this somewhat and makes the games more even, but Perilous Vault is just so incredibly good against us. It wrecks our board position and we can't even rebuild it with Whip of Erebos and Pharika, because they'll be gone and exiled too. End Hostilities we can recover from, Perilous Vault much less so. If they're not running the Vault or Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver, the matchup is a lot more even, but if they're running both, it's an absolute nightmare. Ashiok is a terrifying card against us. It's hard to get to it game 1, especially because our most intimidating turn 3 play with no ramp is Courser of Kruphix, and it can grind our libraries down and make us face our own Siege Rhinos while just holding countermana up for any threat that might be able to get to it. I'm not entirely sure how to solve this weakness, but it's one I need to keep in mind going forward.
As I tested, I found that we really, really need to be running Murderous Cut. Taking them out ended up being absolutely horrible, and I'm glad to have them in again. Murderous Cut gives us game against the very fast heroic aggro decks, as we can cast it turn 3 after a Wayfinder or a Commune with the Gods, letting us interrupt them before they get totally out of control. I played a few matches against Jeskai Heroic Combo, and if not for Murderous Cut, I would have lost both. Thanks to it, I could disrupt their combo and go on to win both matches.
I see we agree
I tried the Satyrless versions, but it made the deck pretty clunky. Now that you have 6 spot removals in Banishing Light AND Murderous Cut, do you really need to have more spot removal in the SB? And I'd question the 4th Whip as well. A single copy is amazing, but legendary is crappy. I'd be inclined to use that spot for something a little more impactful.
The biggest change to this version of the deck is the sideboard. I'm trying something somewhat different here, and it's been working so far in the games I've been playing on Cockatrice. I found that cards like Arbor Colossus definitely worked, but I wanted to try out a different approach to sideboarding with this deck. Against aggressive decks, our absolute best card is Whip of Erebos. So I wanted to take advantage of the static lifegain effect that Whip of Erebos offers, and try out playing early above-curve creatures like Fleecemane Lion and Anafenza, the Foremost to apply pressure or act as roadblocks for the fast aggro decks. Fleecemane Lion into a Courser or Anafenza into a Whip of Erebos is usually going to be game over. The aggro decks of this format are focusing on being explosive in order to beat out the Siege Rhinos of the world, so after sideboarding I want to have more relevant plays early so that I can survive long enough to drop the Siege Rhinos and Doomwake Giants that can shut down the game.
Do we really have a problem with aggro? I find a bigger problem is with similar midrange decks that shoot with Sarkhan and Stormbreath. Not the 1-drop agro decks.
Anafenza is also relevant against other Whip decks, as she incidentally hoses Whip of Erebos and Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
Yes, I can see her. It feels like every second deck I play on Cockatrice runs Satyr Wayfinder.
[quote from="Admiral Sultan »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/competitive/established-standard/573586-rockstars-bgx-constellation?comment=71"]The rest of the sideboard is more standard. Hero's Downfall comes in when I need some more removal. The 4th Whip of Erebos is there to come in for the matchups where Whip of Erebos is vital to winning. Pharika moved from the mainboard to the sideboard, and Erase remains for Jeskai Combo decks and the mirror.
The 4th Whip and Downfalls seem like overkill. In a vaccuum, how many spot removals do you want to have after boarding? You've already got 6 MD, so I wouldn't think you'd need that many more if any.
While putting together this sideboard I wanted to avoid as much as I could adding in cards that were negated by what the opponents might be siding in. Abzan Midrange is going to want to bring in sweepers against us, so Thoughtsieze and Pharika aren't hurt by those at all, and in fact fight against them. Jeskai Tempo is going to want to add in Disdainful Strokes, most everything I side in--aside from the 4th Whip--ducks under that. I liked Nylea's Disciple and Arbor Colossus against Jeskai, but they were often prepared for those. Hushwing Gryff is also incidentally a very good card against us, so Nylea's Disciple was even less appealing.
I've played several matches with this list, and I've found that we have good matchups against the midrange decks, especially if we can Whip back a Hornet Queen early on, and aggro also feels pretty good. We'll lose to the absolute nut draws like everyone else, but this deck packs so much beef and lifegaining power, along with a good amount of removal, that I tend to win more games than I lose, especially after sideboarding.
I hope Jeskai Heroic Combo ends up being more popular than 4-color Jeskai Ascendancy, because we have game against the first and NOT against the second. Game 1 is a bit dicey, and though I'm not too worried about the aggro part of the deck, the combo can come out of nowhere and kill us. Murderous Cut and Banishing Light are essential in this matchup. After sideboarding, things get better with more removal, Erase, and more ways to stall their early aggression and force them to use pump spells. Against the dedicated versions of the deck that just try and combo off with mana dorks, however, game 1 is almost unwinnable. Thankfully, that version seems much less popular.
Our absolute worst matchup, by far, is UB Control. We have a lot of do-nothing spells against them, and we take long enough to set up that they can wait and then just play draw-go and run us into the ground. Sideboarding fixes this somewhat and makes the games more even, but Perilous Vault is just so incredibly good against us. It wrecks our board position and we can't even rebuild it with Whip of Erebos and Pharika, because they'll be gone and exiled too. End Hostilities we can recover from, Perilous Vault much less so. If they're not running the Vault or Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver, the matchup is a lot more even, but if they're running both, it's an absolute nightmare. Ashiok is a terrifying card against us. It's hard to get to it game 1, especially because our most intimidating turn 3 play with no ramp is Courser of Kruphix, and it can grind our libraries down and make us face our own Siege Rhinos while just holding countermana up for any threat that might be able to get to it. I'm not entirely sure how to solve this weakness, but it's one I need to keep in mind going forward.
The best cards I have found vs UB control are Thoughtseize and Nissa, Worldwaker (they are forced to use spot removal on our animated lands, since perilous missed them). Maybe you should have 2 Nissa and maybe a Garruk instead of Hero's Downfall and Whip of Erebos?
Is the single Plains necessary? It creates the potential to have an otherwise playable opening hand, except your two lands are Plains and Urborg.
The 2-of Elvish Mystics seem awkward. If you don't see them in your opening hand that just means you're going to draw them later, and possibly at a critical time. For occasional ramp, I would probably prefer to have Font of Fertility because it would at least interact with Eidolon and Doomwake in the late-game. Moving Anafenza or Fleecemane Lion to the main could be an option, too.
Has anyone considered Agent of Erebos in the side/main? Murderous Cut, Dig Through Time, and Treasure Cruise see enough play that regularly wiping your opponent's graveyard becomes a good idea, especially when you can make UB Control pay near full price for Dig.
I notice some crossover with posters who have contributed to both the BG Constellation thread and the Green Devotion thread. I wonder if you could let us know what you feel are the relative strengths and weaknesses of each deck. I still am quite happy with Gr Devotion, but GB Constellation is getting more high level play, so there must be something to it.
I haven't gone way back in the thread, but I see an absence of Chord of Calling and Genesis Hydra in the most recent lists in this thread. Nykthos also seem to not be getting much play here. Am I misunderstanding and this is not really a devotion based deck?
The GB Devotion list that Top 8'ed over the weekend had 4 Nykthos and a couple Chords; the one that Top 16'ed had 2 Nykthos but no Chord or Genesis Hydra; Todd Anderson was on camera quite often and made frequent use of Chord, he also had Genesis Hydra in his deck, I can't remember about Nykthos, but am pretty sure he had at least one.
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@Magicmerl: I agree the 4th whip is likely unnecessary, I'm just testing out a bunch of different sideboarding possibilities. I had somehow forgotten about Nissa, but she'd definitely be good against the Perilous Vault decks, and control in general. I'll have to pick up a couple.
@Meecht: The single Plains is necessary to be fetched by Windswept Heath. There does exist the possibility of that opening hand you mentioned, but the chances of it happening are very, very small, and I'll take the minute possibility of having to mulligan that particular hand so that I can run Windswept Heath to it's fullest, giving me more consistent ETB untapped manafixing, as well as synergy with Courser of Kruphix and delve cards.
I do agree the 2-of Elvish Mystics are a bit odd, that's just what the deck's numbers ended up looking like. I'm currently trying out 4 Satyr Wayfinders instead, as well as a 23rd land. I'm not sure the three-color versions should run 22 lands, though I could be totally wrong. Font of Fertility is a card I tried last standard---it is very underwhelming. If you don't see it turn 1, it's horrible every other turn and it's still not even that great when it works perfectly, because it's going to suck up your first two turns, whereas Mystic would let you still cast something turn 2 if you play it turn 1. It's better in the late game when you get a Constellation trigger for G and then an extra land, but except in that unexciting situation, Elvish Mystic does everything it does better.
I'm not sure if Agent of Erebos was mentioned earlier in this thread or the previous one, but I have tested it, and it's underwhelming. It's excellent graveyard hate, but it's slow. Trying to hate out Delve cards isn't really worth it, because the opponent isn't actually losing any cards--they'll still get to cast their delve cards, just not for full price. It doesn't hurt Sidisi, Brood Tyrant at all, and it's own body isn't very relevant. Siding it against Control will slow them down somewhat, but it's also costing you a turn you could have been pressuring them, so it slows us down as well. If you want graveyard hate, Anafenza, the Foremost offers a way to hurt Sidisi and Whip of Erebos while also being an undercosted threat that makes your creatures bigger, and Pharika, God of Affliction hoses Whip of Erebos if you keep BG open, and also is an enchantment who can make use of your own graveyard to create blockers and trigger Constellation more, and she can also become a 5/5 attacker to boot. We have maindeckable graveyard hate already, and while Anafenza and Pharika don't hurt graveyard decks quite as much as Agent of Erebos, they can actually do other things in addition to graveyard hate as well.
@thg: The distinction between GB Constellation and GB devotion can be pretty murky. GB devotion definitely wants the Genesis Hydras or Chord of Callings. GB Constellation, at least lately, tends to revolve around playing Whip of Erebos and with it, a graveyard theme with Satyr Wayfinder, Commune with the Gods, and Murderous Cut. GB Devotion tries to go bigger by directly ramping a lot more and playing huge creatures.
The issue comes in because GB devotion ALSO often runs a package of Doomwake Giants and Eidolon of Blossoms, so though GB devotion and GB constellation have overlap, the goals of the deck are pretty different. However, coverage often names the decks the same thing in any given weekend, even when they're quite different. For example, in the SCG open you mentioned, GB devotion top 8'd, but there was another GB devotion deck in the top 16 that is incredibly different from the other list, and is running the Whip of Erebos/more Eidolon of Blossoms plan, similarly to the decklists that appear in this thread. However, both lists, despite being incredibly different, are still labled as GB devotion. So to answer your question, GB enchantress isn't really a devotion based deck, it's just often labled as one.
Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, however, is still a great card in GB Constellation. I don't run it because I'm running three colors, and I can't afford to run any non-fetchland colorless lands, but for the straight GB versions it definitely deserves at least 2 slots.
Fair enough. I plan to try a list very much like yours, except I want to try +1 Pharika and +1 land instead of the two Mystics.
The issue comes in because GB devotion ALSO often runs a package of Doomwake Giants and Eidolon of Blossoms, so though GB devotion and GB constellation have overlap, the goals of the deck are pretty different. However, coverage often names the decks the same thing in any given weekend, even when they're quite different. For example, in the SCG open you mentioned, GB devotion top 8'd, but there was another GB devotion deck in the top 16 that is incredibly different from the other list, and is running the Whip of Erebos/more Eidolon of Blossoms plan, similarly to the decklists that appear in this thread. However, both lists, despite being incredibly different, are still labled as GB devotion. So to answer your question, GB enchantress isn't really a devotion based deck, it's just often labled as one.
This is true. The guy who got 14th place (Victor Logan) is a friend of mine, and I know he put "Constellation" instead of "Devotion" for his deck name. I actually ran the exact same list he did, but my record was A LOT worse (1-4-1 before dropping).
Edit: I also wanted to mention something I realized during the Open. Pharika can have extra use in the Temur/Jeskai matchups that run Ashcloud Phoenix. You can exile the Phoenix in response to the death trigger to keep it from returning.
I notice some crossover with posters who have contributed to both the BG Constellation thread and the Green Devotion thread. I wonder if you could let us know what you feel are the relative strengths and weaknesses of each deck. I still am quite happy with Gr Devotion, but GB Constellation is getting more high level play, so there must be something to it.
Yeah, it's possible to have distorted and inbred testing results with your own pet deck, but decks that are putting up actual tournament results are probably better. I see the 4 courser decks as being on somewhat of a continuum. GR Monsters -> GR Planeswalkers -> GB Dev -> GB Constellation. My personal opinion is that the two best lists are at the ends, with Whip of Erebos and Stormbreath Dragon just being powerful gamewinning cards that you can graft a secondary shell involving Courser of Kruphix into (either devotion or constellation based).
I haven't gone way back in the thread, but I see an absence of Chord of Calling and Genesis Hydra in the most recent lists in this thread. Nykthos also seem to not be getting much play here. Am I misunderstanding and this is not really a devotion based deck?
It really isn't. If you look at the spectrum I outlined above, it's only really the middle two decks that abuse Nykthose, and they are the less powerful of the decks. The thing is, decks not built around devotion are harder to disrupt, since a sweeper doesn't set you back to nothing. You can still untap and play a Stormbreath Dragon or whip a Hornet Queen. Having access to a full playset of either [cardLightning Strike[/card] or Murderous Cut is also amazing, and very necessary to interact with the opponent.
The GB Devotion list that Top 8'ed over the weekend had 4 Nykthos and a couple Chords; the one that Top 16'ed had 2 Nykthos but no Chord or Genesis Hydra; Todd Anderson was on camera quite often and made frequent use of Chord, he also had Genesis Hydra in his deck, I can't remember about Nykthos, but am pretty sure he had at least one.
In the GB Dev list, Chord, Hydra and See the Unwritten are fairly interchangeable with one another.
I do agree the 2-of Elvish Mystics are a bit odd, that's just what the deck's numbers ended up looking like. I'm currently trying out 4 Satyr Wayfinders instead, as well as a 23rd land. I'm not sure the three-color versions should run 22 lands, though I could be totally wrong. Font of Fertility is a card I tried last standard---it is very underwhelming. If you don't see it turn 1, it's horrible every other turn and it's still not even that great when it works perfectly, because it's going to suck up your first two turns, whereas Mystic would let you still cast something turn 2 if you play it turn 1. It's better in the late game when you get a Constellation trigger for G and then an extra land, but except in that unexciting situation, Elvish Mystic does everything it does better.
Perhaps we should cut Elvish Mystic? I can see it being a generally low impact card. That would let us run another scryland as a T1 play.
I'm not sure if Agent of Erebos was mentioned earlier in this thread or the previous one, but I have tested it, and it's underwhelming. It's excellent graveyard hate, but it's slow. Trying to hate out Delve cards isn't really worth it, because the opponent isn't actually losing any cards--they'll still get to cast their delve cards, just not for full price. It doesn't hurt Sidisi, Brood Tyrant at all, and it's own body isn't very relevant. Siding it against Control will slow them down somewhat, but it's also costing you a turn you could have been pressuring them, so it slows us down as well.
@thg: The distinction between GB Constellation and GB devotion can be pretty murky. GB devotion definitely wants the Genesis Hydras or Chord of Callings. GB Constellation, at least lately, tends to revolve around playing Whip of Erebos and with it, a graveyard theme with Satyr Wayfinder, Commune with the Gods, and Murderous Cut. GB Devotion tries to go bigger by directly ramping a lot more and playing huge creatures.
Although the difference might seem small conceptaully, running Murderous Cut, Whip, Satyr and Commune is nearly half the deck. Having incidental lifegain and the best spot removal in the format is great vs aggro, and having graveyard recursion lets us go long vs more controlling decks.
The issue comes in because GB devotion ALSO often runs a package of Doomwake Giants and Eidolon of Blossoms, so though GB devotion and GB constellation have overlap, the goals of the deck are pretty different. However, coverage often names the decks the same thing in any given weekend, even when they're quite different. For example, in the SCG open you mentioned, GB devotion top 8'd, but there was another GB devotion deck in the top 16 that is incredibly different from the other list, and is running the Whip of Erebos/more Eidolon of Blossoms plan, similarly to the decklists that appear in this thread. However, both lists, despite being incredibly different, are still labled as GB devotion. So to answer your question, GB enchantress isn't really a devotion based deck, it's just often labled as one.
From my perspective, the constellation deck is both faster and more resilient, while the devotion builds take an extra turn to 'fire', but when they do so they can be overwhelming.
So if the metagame is all midrange decks, the devotion list is an excellent choice since it goes bigger than them. But if there's a decent chunk of aggro, control and combo in there then the constellation deck is both less susceptible to disruption and more able to interact with the opponent, even if at it's best it's not as mindblowing as the devotion deck.
Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, however, is still a great card in GB Constellation. I don't run it because I'm running three colors, and I can't afford to run any non-fetchland colorless lands, but for the straight GB versions it definitely deserves at least 2 slots.
Yup. The question is, which would you rather have, Nykthos or Banishing Light?
This is the deck that Todd Anderson used in a recent Versus Video. I assume it is quite close to what he played last weekend in Columbus. Although he was using multiple Chords in Columbus.
It has 11 black land sources (plus a lot more if Urborg is one of them) along with 4 Caryatids and 4 Satyr Wayfinders to dig for black lands. And, it runs a double black whip.
This list is also just 22 lands, I say "just" because I have been running 24 lands in my Gr Devotion list. Maybe Wayfinder and Eidolon of Blossoms changes the land equation.
@thg: That list is definitely on the constellation side of the spectrum. 22 lands is usually what people go for with this archetype because of the number of mana dorks/wayfinders the deck runs.
I haven't really been liking the number of mana dorks this deck usually runs, though. They make for a lot of dead draws, and while they make the deck consistent, it also means that the deck's threat density is a little low. Devotion decks can get away with running a million mana dorks because they're doing incredibly powerful things with it, but I'm less of a fan of the 8 mana dorks/4 wayfinders that this archetype often runs. I've been liking 4 wayfinders/4 caryatid/23 lands. Especially because the opponent can't screw you out of mana by throwing a removal spell at your dorks, as Caryatid has hexproof and Wayfinders isn't really a mana dork.
This is the deck that Todd Anderson used in a recent Versus Video. I assume it is quite close to what he played last weekend in Columbus. Although he was using multiple Chords in Columbus.
It has 11 black land sources (plus a lot more if Urborg is one of them) along with 4 Caryatids and 4 Satyr Wayfinders to dig for black lands. And, it runs a double black whip.
This list is also just 22 lands, I say "just" because I have been running 24 lands in my Gr Devotion list. Maybe Wayfinder and Eidolon of Blossoms changes the land equation.
I'd put that deck solidly in the BG Constellation camp. It has random Nykthos for value to do things like cast two doomwakes in a single turn, but really it's findamentally a value Whip deck. That looks like Lucas Bluhon's list from a few weeks back.
I haven't really been liking the number of mana dorks this deck usually runs, though. They make for a lot of dead draws, and while they make the deck consistent, it also means that the deck's threat density is a little low. Devotion decks can get away with running a million mana dorks because they're doing incredibly powerful things with it, but I'm less of a fan of the 8 mana dorks/4 wayfinders that this archetype often runs. I've been liking 4 wayfinders/4 caryatid/23 lands. Especially because the opponent can't screw you out of mana by throwing a removal spell at your dorks, as Caryatid has hexproof and Wayfinders isn't really a mana dork.
To be clear, Sylvan Carytid is still awesome. But there's no great crashing need to ramp to 3 on turn 2 with Elvish Mystic like there is in a devotion deck.
I managed to get some good testing in vs Sultai graveyard, and sadly, Agent of Erebos is not a good card. It certainly resets their graveyard, but that basically doesn't matter because they have already got value from the mill by virtue of the 2/2 zombie tokens. What we *really* want is to control the board, and the way to do that is with the 4th Doomwake Giant since being able to sweep their board every turn or so is better. And in terms of answering an opposing Whip, Pharika already does an ok job of it.
I've also been thinking of going up to a 9th mana bug, either over the 23rd land or the 3rd Whip. Whip is awesome and all, bu it's incredibly clunky (almost an 8 mana sorcery). I've found it plays more like a 6-drop than a 4-drop, since I invariably want something that impacts the board more. Running a misers Rattleclaw Mystic can help us punch our way up to 5 or 7 mana ahead of schedule if played as a morph.
In your white splash, I really like the Banishing Light, but I'm much less sanguine about Siege Rhino. For me at least, that's a card that I feel the metagame has fully adjusted to sitting down against (a bit like Goblin Rabblemaster). Vs control decks I'd rather have more Eidolon of Blossoms and vs aggro, more Doomwakes.
I think you're missing out by not running at least 1 Murderous Cut maindeck. There's so much rubbish that you mill that it's basically a black Swords for us (I typically tap all my lands and play it off a carytid, which tends to surprise opponents for some reason).
I did like running Murderous Cut when I was playing BG, and I would like to find room for it somewhere, but I don't think I'd drop Banishing Light for it, if only because without it I'm at 13 enchantments, which makes Eidolon and Doomwake worse. This could still be the right move anyways, especially because I'd be less vulnerable to the enchantment hate that will be coming out of the woodwork against us. Back to Nature is a pretty terrifying card.
I view Satyr Wayfinder similarly to you---it's the worst, but necessary card in the deck. I'm sticking with a 3/3 split of Elvish Mystic and Wayfinder because Wayfinder's ability to fill up the graveyard is still very relevant, and getting an actual land is pretty important in a deck where you run the risk of drawing few of them.
The clunkiness of Whip of Erebos that you mentioned is actually part of what prompted me to try out adding white, which is because Siege Rhino just works excellently with Whip of Erebos. One of the issues I had playing BG was that Whip of Erebos didn't really do much on it's own, as the lifegain was nice but not really that important early on, but if Whip of Erebos follows up a Siege Rhino, that's 4 life a turn you stand to start gaining. The combination of Rhino and Whip adds an enourmous amount of inevitability and gives the deck time it needs to set up. It's also a threat that won't die to Back to Nature or Erase. I could honestly only splash white for Siege Rhino, as it just adds so much for the deck.
In the end, though, I don't think this is a case where either version is definitely better than the other. Murderous Cut is awesome, and BG has stronger Constellation chains possible.
Can you tell me how/why you arrived at the numbers you did for your midrange creatures? 3 Eidolon, 2 Doomwake, 4 Rhino.
p.s. My current list:
4 Sylvan Caryatid
1 Rattleclaw Mystic
3 Satyr Wayfinder
4 Commune with the Gods
4 Murderous Cut
2 Whip of Erebos
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Eidolon of Blossoms
3 Doomwake Giant
3 Hornet Queen
2 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Temple of Malady
4 Llanowar Wastes
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Swamp
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
1 Doomwake Giant
4 Arbor Colossus
4 Thoughtseize
1 Nissa, Worldwaker
3 Unravel the Æther
1 Consign to Dust
2 Doomwake Giant I've since gone back on. I'm currently testing out 3 Doomwake Giant and 2 Hornet Queen, as the more Doomwake Giants in a deck, the more powerful the card becomes. Siege Rhino also lessens the need to immediately find a Hornet Queen, as it is another high-power whip target.
At what point does it become better to just run an Azban goodstuff deck instead?
Indeed, adding Siege Rhino does make me run fewer cards with Constellation on them, but it doesn't really lessen the consistency of the Constellation plan that much. If I took out the Rhino, I would likely be running 4 Eidolon of Blossoms and 3 Doomwake Giant. So though the Constellation effects go from 7 to 6, the amount of enchantments I run stays fairly constant, because of Banishing Light. So though I go down an Eidolon of Blossoms, my enchantment count actually has a net increase because of the addition of Banishing Light, bringing me to 17 enchantments versus the 15 or 16 that this archetype normally runs. I lose a single Constellation effect, but the deck's overall support for Constellation increases slightly as well. Eidolon of Blossoms is also one of my more popular choices with Commune with the Gods, as it's the most useless of the midrange creatures in the graveyard, so I haven't really had a problem with having one when I need it.
As for the second part of your post, I'm pretty far from Abzan Midrange, despite sharing colors. Siege Rhino is arguably better in this deck than it is in Abzan Midrange, as it has the support of Whip of Erebos. Not that I'm saying this deck is better than Abzan Midrange in all aspects, but in this particular one, Siege Rhino has added functionality in this archetype. Moving to Abzan Midrange would remove that functionality, and take away the very reason I want to run Siege Rhino in the first place.
Siege Rhino is being added to help support the Constellation theme, as it gives us more time to chain Constellation effects. If Siege Rhino puts a damper on the opponent's early aggression, I can play Eidolon of Blossoms and start getting value more safely. Eidolon of Blossoms is also a magnet for removal, but if Siege Rhino is also there, it forces the opponent to have to choose between removing a card advantage engine or the threat that might be actively killing them. With Siege Rhino, Doomwake Giant's -1/-1 ability gets extra utility beyond killing x/1s when it comes into play because it can allow me to get attacks in with Siege Rhino immediately into a field that normally might not have been a good one to attack into.
If I found that I wanted to add Wingmate Roc, or some planeswalkers, then I would be stepping closer to Abzan Midrange, but there isn't really another card from that deck I feel compelled to run. Wingmate Roc is the closest, but it doesn't really provide anything this deck needs, and the raid trigger would be awkward unless I had a Siege Rhino in the first place. With Siege Rhino in the deck, I don't really need any more lifegain, and Hornet Queen does all the work I need in the skies. I don't need planeswalkers, as my late game is strong enough. Despite the addition of the marquee card from Abzan Midrange, the deck is still very much a seperate entity.
I think Kruphix's Insight is too expensive to be worthy of consideration. And all of the other cards you list I don't run, so I feel like they would be making my deck worse by displacing better cards. What would you cut to fit them in? Courser? Doomwake? Hornet Queen?
The more I look the more I see that your build isn't fundamentally different from my list despite the 7 white cards. I'll have to try it out. Is Erase really the only SB option you gain?
Brain Maggot, on the other hand, is useful if not optimal in many matchups. Against Jeskai Tempo, your Maggot can steal their threats which forces them to waste burn on it or at least 1-for-1 a burn spell. Though Maggot usually ends up being a 1-for-1 either way, it at least is a slight tempo gain because it forces your opponent to actually use mana to cast the removal to get their threat back. The same concept applies in Midrange matches where Maggot can remove threats and force your opponent to spend removal. It's a pseudo-Thoughtseize that will usually be a 1-for-1 so it's fairly self-explanatory. It's only really weak against Control lists or lists that can run boardwipes, in the mirror or any deck that runs Doomwake, and against Monored, but even against Monored it can usually trade through combat. Additionally, Brain Maggots act as cheap Constellation triggers and increase your target density for Kruphix's Insight.
Kruphix's Insight isn't so much more expensive that it should automatically be dismissed without consideration. Right now, the majority of lists are saturated with 2 drops between Wayfinder, Commune, and Caryatid which is useful as Commune and Wayfinder set up your yard so you can play another 2 drop on T3 and have mana up for Murderous Cut. However, if instead of Caryatid we play Maggot, we could proactively (though most likely temporarily) remove the threat and ensure that we can utilize our full three mana on Kruphix instead. If we do play Caryatid, we could still have 4 mana on T3 and have mana up for both Murderous Cut and Kruphix. From what I've tested, Kruphix just swings midrange matches in your favor because of the card advantage it can provide, which incidentally also synergizes well with chaining Constellation triggers. I could be completely wrong though as Wayfinder/Commune T2 followed by a T3 Murderous Cut or Courser is still a very solid and consistent play.
Nighthowler, though strong in the mirror and any deck that mills itself (Wayfinder/Sidisi) from the mid to late game, is often a do nothing or mediocre card so it might not warrant any spots in the board so it's understandable that he would be overlooked. I personally have been testing 2 Main and I still feel ambivalent about him. If I can draw him after T5/6 when both players have an established board, he's very useful for breaking through boardstalls, but drawing him early game might prove to be too much of a downside.
For reference, here's my build:
4x Brain Maggot
4x Courser of Kruphix
4x Doomwake Giant
4x Eidolon of Blossoms
4x Elvish Mystic
2x Hornet Queen
2x Nighthowler
1x Pharika, God of Affliction
4x Satyr Wayfinder
Land (23)
7x Forest
1x Jungle Hollow
4x Llanowar Wastes
1x Mana Confluence
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4x Swamp
4x Temple of Malady
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Whip of Erebos
3x Murderous Cut
3x Kruphix's Insight
3x Arbor Colossus
3x Extinguish All Hope
1x Murderous Cut
4x Nylea's Disciple
1x Pharika, God of Affliction
3x Reclamation Sage
The Sideboard is still a WIP mostly because I have yet to acquire Thoughtseizes and Nissas.
Sorry you thought my suggestions were 'ridiculous'. I agree that those are important cards, which is why I disagreed with cutting them. Your list I think seems glacially slow. You'r;e basically locked into playing a single constellation card a turn, at a speed where the opponent can easily answer/trump/race them.
It's not a tempo gain if they use a spell that costs 2 or less mana to kill the maggot.
The problem I have with Maggot (and also Satyr) is that his 1/1 body is basically irrelevant. So he's not worth a card.
Cutting carytid will slow the deck down a lot. And running Kruphix's Insight will compound that further by being even slower.
This deck doesn't have a problem going long. It has a problem getting raced or having it's constellation cards removed without value.
Your list somehow seems to have less early game *and* less late game than mine.
Edit: My keyboard is acting up and cutting words off/changing their locations so some words/phrases might not make sense.
@AsianGuy1137: On a general note, I do agree that we need to be careful about how many mana accelerants we run. I tend to like around 8 or 9 cards dedicated to finding lands or ramping in these lists. More than 10, and you run the risk at having hands full of set-up and nothing else, hands that sputter if the opponent has removal, or horrible topdecks in the late game. These cards are important, as we're on the slower side, but we don't want to go overboard.
On the subject of Kruphix's Insight, I tested it out for a while. Though the effect is powerful, I found 3 mana to be a bit of an awkward spot. At that time, I'd rather be casting a Courser of Kruphix, or playing a 4-drop if I accelerated into it. Commune with the Gods gives us more flexibility, giving us an early play if it's needed, and it lets me set up plays that involve casting it and another card in the same turn more easily. It also opens the possible turn 3 play of casting Commune with the Gods and then casting Murderous Cut when the opponent plays a Mantis Rider or something. Kruphix's Insight can also randomly fail in places where you need it to, as it can't grab Hornet Queen if that's what you happen to need, or if you need to find a mana dork/Satyr Wayfinder. With a white splash, it's unable to find Siege Rhino. I prefer the flexibility, consistency, and lower mana cost of Commune with the Gods over the possibility of getting more cards. Besides, this deck doesn't really have a big problem with running out of resources. I did see a very interesting constellation deck that top 16'ed a SCG open, and it ran somewhere around 27 enchantments or something insane that got great use out of Kruphix's Insight, but I don't think this is really the place for it.
As for Nighthowler, I did consider it. The issue with it that I found, however, is twofold. On the one hand, it has some antisynergy with the deck. Pharika, Murderous Cut, and Whip of Erebos all remove cards from the graveyard, two of these specifically taking out creatures. Luckily it counts the opponent's creatures as well, but it's still a little unstable. On the other hand, and you alluded to this in your post, it's not really doing anything the deck wants. If we wanted bigger creatures, we could pretty easily get that, being in green. He's only useful early on if we cast an enabler spell, and later on in the game we tend to have momentum going enough that a large beater isn't really what we need.
As for Brain Maggot, the card served me well in different Constellation builds. I do like the card, but I'm not sure this is really the place for it. When turn 2 rolls around, I'd rather play a mana accelerant to get out an early Eidolon of Blossoms or Whip of Erebos. It also tends to get worse game 2 and 3, as the decks that can will be siding in sweepers against us, and Brain Maggot is at it's absolute worst if it's killed by a sweeper. This deck needs to have some disruption maindeck, or else be taken down by a threat we couldn't deal with, but I think Brain Maggot doesn't provide the acceleration or raw power this deck is generally looking for.
1. Satyr Wayfinder really sucks in your build, since there's no Murderous Cuts. I'd snapswap one out for the 4th Elvish Mystic, the 4th Eidolon of Blossoms and a misers Murderous Cut. (and if you do that, you can fit the 4th Arbor Colossus into the SB over a cut)
2. If you don't draw a Carytid you *really* struggle vs Goblin Rabblemaster. And your SB doesn't offer much hope either.
I already find that my build doesn't do enough to impact the board, and that a 2/2 for 4 and a 4/6 for 5 are durdly. But I can at least consistently cast them a turn earlier. Cutting Carytid for Maggot disrupts the opponent, but it doesn't advance your own board in any meaningful way.
It's only really relevant if you disrupt their curve. Jeskai is full of so many redundant cards that it doesn't matter much if you take their Mantis Rider if they can play a Goblin Rabblemaster instead.
Sure. In most games T2 your ideal play is carytid, then Mystic, then satyr, then commune. Your build takes away the best T2 play (you are pretty unreliable to get to 4 mana on turn 3, basically needing a Mystic to survive).
Well, you will know better than me how well your deck does vs rabble red. I find that I'm frequently waanting to throw out a doomwake as early as possible to stabilise.
Well, let's do the math on Insight. You have 21 enchantments in the deck and going 6 cards deep, you're going to average 2 constellation cards. Is that worth a whole extra mana?
Sure. I'm regarding the early game as ramping to our midgame cards. Since you have dropped carytid you of course ramp to the midgame more slowly. And then once we get to the midgame the cards that overwhelm the opponent are Whip, Doomwake and Queen. And I run more copies of all of them than you. So I have more of the cards that matter in my deck. I guess you could make the arguement that Insight gives you more functional copies of those cards. So perhaps I was overstating my point by saying that.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that being a negligible difference.
No, as I said earlier my comments about the late game related to the 4+ mana cards in the deck.
Alternatively, I could go down on Banishing Lights, add some Murderous Cuts, and keep in Wayfinders. I'll try both options.
Edit: Only the mystic is good. You're right about the deck being a bit heavy on the 4-drops.
2 Elvish Mystic
3 Satyr Wayfinder
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
3 Eidolon of Blossoms
4 Siege Rhino
3 Doomwake Giant
2 Hornet Queen
Enchantments
3 Banishing Light
3 Whip of Erebos
4 Commune with the Gods
3 Murderous Cut
Land
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Windswept Heath
4 Temple of Malady
3 Temple of Plenty
3 Llanowar Wastes
3 Sandsteppe Citadel
2 Anafenza, the Foremost
3 Fleecemane Lion
2 Erase
2 Hero's Downfall
1 Whip of Erebos
4 Thoughtseize
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
As I tested, I found that we really, really need to be running Murderous Cut. Taking them out ended up being absolutely horrible, and I'm glad to have them in again. Murderous Cut gives us game against the very fast heroic aggro decks, as we can cast it turn 3 after a Wayfinder or a Commune with the Gods, letting us interrupt them before they get totally out of control. I played a few matches against Jeskai Heroic Combo, and if not for Murderous Cut, I would have lost both. Thanks to it, I could disrupt their combo and go on to win both matches.
The biggest change to this version of the deck is the sideboard. I'm trying something somewhat different here, and it's been working so far in the games I've been playing on Cockatrice. I found that cards like Arbor Colossus definitely worked, but I wanted to try out a different approach to sideboarding with this deck. Against aggressive decks, our absolute best card is Whip of Erebos. So I wanted to take advantage of the static lifegain effect that Whip of Erebos offers, and try out playing early above-curve creatures like Fleecemane Lion and Anafenza, the Foremost to apply pressure or act as roadblocks for the fast aggro decks. Fleecemane Lion into a Courser or Anafenza into a Whip of Erebos is usually going to be game over. The aggro decks of this format are focusing on being explosive in order to beat out the Siege Rhinos of the world, so after sideboarding I want to have more relevant plays early so that I can survive long enough to drop the Siege Rhinos and Doomwake Giants that can shut down the game.
There are better strictly anti-aggro cards out there, but where Fleecemane Lion and Anafenza shine is that they're relevant in other matchups. Against control decks, we're too durdly to apply any real pressure, but the Lion and Anafenza are great early attackers that can demand answers, protecting our later bigger creatures. Anafenza is also relevant against other Whip decks, as she incidentally hoses Whip of Erebos and Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
The rest of the sideboard is more standard. Hero's Downfall comes in when I need some more removal. The 4th Whip of Erebos is there to come in for the matchups where Whip of Erebos is vital to winning. Pharika moved from the mainboard to the sideboard, and Erase remains for Jeskai Combo decks and the mirror.
While putting together this sideboard I wanted to avoid as much as I could adding in cards that were negated by what the opponents might be siding in. Abzan Midrange is going to want to bring in sweepers against us, so Thoughtsieze and Pharika aren't hurt by those at all, and in fact fight against them. Jeskai Tempo is going to want to add in Disdainful Strokes, most everything I side in--aside from the 4th Whip--ducks under that. I liked Nylea's Disciple and Arbor Colossus against Jeskai, but they were often prepared for those. Hushwing Gryff is also incidentally a very good card against us, so Nylea's Disciple was even less appealing.
I've played several matches with this list, and I've found that we have good matchups against the midrange decks, especially if we can Whip back a Hornet Queen early on, and aggro also feels pretty good. We'll lose to the absolute nut draws like everyone else, but this deck packs so much beef and lifegaining power, along with a good amount of removal, that I tend to win more games than I lose, especially after sideboarding.
I hope Jeskai Heroic Combo ends up being more popular than 4-color Jeskai Ascendancy, because we have game against the first and NOT against the second. Game 1 is a bit dicey, and though I'm not too worried about the aggro part of the deck, the combo can come out of nowhere and kill us. Murderous Cut and Banishing Light are essential in this matchup. After sideboarding, things get better with more removal, Erase, and more ways to stall their early aggression and force them to use pump spells. Against the dedicated versions of the deck that just try and combo off with mana dorks, however, game 1 is almost unwinnable. Thankfully, that version seems much less popular.
Our absolute worst matchup, by far, is UB Control. We have a lot of do-nothing spells against them, and we take long enough to set up that they can wait and then just play draw-go and run us into the ground. Sideboarding fixes this somewhat and makes the games more even, but Perilous Vault is just so incredibly good against us. It wrecks our board position and we can't even rebuild it with Whip of Erebos and Pharika, because they'll be gone and exiled too. End Hostilities we can recover from, Perilous Vault much less so. If they're not running the Vault or Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver, the matchup is a lot more even, but if they're running both, it's an absolute nightmare. Ashiok is a terrifying card against us. It's hard to get to it game 1, especially because our most intimidating turn 3 play with no ramp is Courser of Kruphix, and it can grind our libraries down and make us face our own Siege Rhinos while just holding countermana up for any threat that might be able to get to it. I'm not entirely sure how to solve this weakness, but it's one I need to keep in mind going forward.
I see we agree
I tried the Satyrless versions, but it made the deck pretty clunky. Now that you have 6 spot removals in Banishing Light AND Murderous Cut, do you really need to have more spot removal in the SB? And I'd question the 4th Whip as well. A single copy is amazing, but legendary is crappy. I'd be inclined to use that spot for something a little more impactful.
Do we really have a problem with aggro? I find a bigger problem is with similar midrange decks that shoot with Sarkhan and Stormbreath. Not the 1-drop agro decks.
Is Fleecemane Lion better than Elvish Mystic?
The 4th Whip and Downfalls seem like overkill. In a vaccuum, how many spot removals do you want to have after boarding? You've already got 6 MD, so I wouldn't think you'd need that many more if any.
The best cards I have found vs UB control are Thoughtseize and Nissa, Worldwaker (they are forced to use spot removal on our animated lands, since perilous missed them). Maybe you should have 2 Nissa and maybe a Garruk instead of Hero's Downfall and Whip of Erebos?
The 2-of Elvish Mystics seem awkward. If you don't see them in your opening hand that just means you're going to draw them later, and possibly at a critical time. For occasional ramp, I would probably prefer to have Font of Fertility because it would at least interact with Eidolon and Doomwake in the late-game. Moving Anafenza or Fleecemane Lion to the main could be an option, too.
Has anyone considered Agent of Erebos in the side/main? Murderous Cut, Dig Through Time, and Treasure Cruise see enough play that regularly wiping your opponent's graveyard becomes a good idea, especially when you can make UB Control pay near full price for Dig.
I haven't gone way back in the thread, but I see an absence of Chord of Calling and Genesis Hydra in the most recent lists in this thread. Nykthos also seem to not be getting much play here. Am I misunderstanding and this is not really a devotion based deck?
The GB Devotion list that Top 8'ed over the weekend had 4 Nykthos and a couple Chords; the one that Top 16'ed had 2 Nykthos but no Chord or Genesis Hydra; Todd Anderson was on camera quite often and made frequent use of Chord, he also had Genesis Hydra in his deck, I can't remember about Nykthos, but am pretty sure he had at least one.
@Meecht: The single Plains is necessary to be fetched by Windswept Heath. There does exist the possibility of that opening hand you mentioned, but the chances of it happening are very, very small, and I'll take the minute possibility of having to mulligan that particular hand so that I can run Windswept Heath to it's fullest, giving me more consistent ETB untapped manafixing, as well as synergy with Courser of Kruphix and delve cards.
I do agree the 2-of Elvish Mystics are a bit odd, that's just what the deck's numbers ended up looking like. I'm currently trying out 4 Satyr Wayfinders instead, as well as a 23rd land. I'm not sure the three-color versions should run 22 lands, though I could be totally wrong. Font of Fertility is a card I tried last standard---it is very underwhelming. If you don't see it turn 1, it's horrible every other turn and it's still not even that great when it works perfectly, because it's going to suck up your first two turns, whereas Mystic would let you still cast something turn 2 if you play it turn 1. It's better in the late game when you get a Constellation trigger for G and then an extra land, but except in that unexciting situation, Elvish Mystic does everything it does better.
I'm not sure if Agent of Erebos was mentioned earlier in this thread or the previous one, but I have tested it, and it's underwhelming. It's excellent graveyard hate, but it's slow. Trying to hate out Delve cards isn't really worth it, because the opponent isn't actually losing any cards--they'll still get to cast their delve cards, just not for full price. It doesn't hurt Sidisi, Brood Tyrant at all, and it's own body isn't very relevant. Siding it against Control will slow them down somewhat, but it's also costing you a turn you could have been pressuring them, so it slows us down as well. If you want graveyard hate, Anafenza, the Foremost offers a way to hurt Sidisi and Whip of Erebos while also being an undercosted threat that makes your creatures bigger, and Pharika, God of Affliction hoses Whip of Erebos if you keep BG open, and also is an enchantment who can make use of your own graveyard to create blockers and trigger Constellation more, and she can also become a 5/5 attacker to boot. We have maindeckable graveyard hate already, and while Anafenza and Pharika don't hurt graveyard decks quite as much as Agent of Erebos, they can actually do other things in addition to graveyard hate as well.
@thg: The distinction between GB Constellation and GB devotion can be pretty murky. GB devotion definitely wants the Genesis Hydras or Chord of Callings. GB Constellation, at least lately, tends to revolve around playing Whip of Erebos and with it, a graveyard theme with Satyr Wayfinder, Commune with the Gods, and Murderous Cut. GB Devotion tries to go bigger by directly ramping a lot more and playing huge creatures.
The issue comes in because GB devotion ALSO often runs a package of Doomwake Giants and Eidolon of Blossoms, so though GB devotion and GB constellation have overlap, the goals of the deck are pretty different. However, coverage often names the decks the same thing in any given weekend, even when they're quite different. For example, in the SCG open you mentioned, GB devotion top 8'd, but there was another GB devotion deck in the top 16 that is incredibly different from the other list, and is running the Whip of Erebos/more Eidolon of Blossoms plan, similarly to the decklists that appear in this thread. However, both lists, despite being incredibly different, are still labled as GB devotion. So to answer your question, GB enchantress isn't really a devotion based deck, it's just often labled as one.
Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, however, is still a great card in GB Constellation. I don't run it because I'm running three colors, and I can't afford to run any non-fetchland colorless lands, but for the straight GB versions it definitely deserves at least 2 slots.
This is true. The guy who got 14th place (Victor Logan) is a friend of mine, and I know he put "Constellation" instead of "Devotion" for his deck name. I actually ran the exact same list he did, but my record was A LOT worse (1-4-1 before dropping).
Edit: I also wanted to mention something I realized during the Open. Pharika can have extra use in the Temur/Jeskai matchups that run Ashcloud Phoenix. You can exile the Phoenix in response to the death trigger to keep it from returning.
Yeah, it's possible to have distorted and inbred testing results with your own pet deck, but decks that are putting up actual tournament results are probably better. I see the 4 courser decks as being on somewhat of a continuum. GR Monsters -> GR Planeswalkers -> GB Dev -> GB Constellation. My personal opinion is that the two best lists are at the ends, with Whip of Erebos and Stormbreath Dragon just being powerful gamewinning cards that you can graft a secondary shell involving Courser of Kruphix into (either devotion or constellation based).
It really isn't. If you look at the spectrum I outlined above, it's only really the middle two decks that abuse Nykthose, and they are the less powerful of the decks. The thing is, decks not built around devotion are harder to disrupt, since a sweeper doesn't set you back to nothing. You can still untap and play a Stormbreath Dragon or whip a Hornet Queen. Having access to a full playset of either [cardLightning Strike[/card] or Murderous Cut is also amazing, and very necessary to interact with the opponent.
In the GB Dev list, Chord, Hydra and See the Unwritten are fairly interchangeable with one another.
Perhaps we should cut Elvish Mystic? I can see it being a generally low impact card. That would let us run another scryland as a T1 play.
Agreed. This was my feelings as well.
Although the difference might seem small conceptaully, running Murderous Cut, Whip, Satyr and Commune is nearly half the deck. Having incidental lifegain and the best spot removal in the format is great vs aggro, and having graveyard recursion lets us go long vs more controlling decks.
From my perspective, the constellation deck is both faster and more resilient, while the devotion builds take an extra turn to 'fire', but when they do so they can be overwhelming.
So if the metagame is all midrange decks, the devotion list is an excellent choice since it goes bigger than them. But if there's a decent chunk of aggro, control and combo in there then the constellation deck is both less susceptible to disruption and more able to interact with the opponent, even if at it's best it's not as mindblowing as the devotion deck.
Yup. The question is, which would you rather have, Nykthos or Banishing Light?
4 Elvish Mystic
3 Hornet Queen
4 Satyr Wayfinder
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Brain Maggot
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Doomwake Giant
4 Eidolon of Blossoms
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
2 Swamp
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Temple of Malady
2 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Murderous Cut
2 Whip of Erebos
4 Commune with the Gods
1 Brain Maggot
2 Doomwake Giant
2 Dark Betrayal
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
2 Nissa, Worldwaker
3 Thoughtseize
Where does it reside on the spectrum?
It has 11 black land sources (plus a lot more if Urborg is one of them) along with 4 Caryatids and 4 Satyr Wayfinders to dig for black lands. And, it runs a double black whip.
This list is also just 22 lands, I say "just" because I have been running 24 lands in my Gr Devotion list. Maybe Wayfinder and Eidolon of Blossoms changes the land equation.
I haven't really been liking the number of mana dorks this deck usually runs, though. They make for a lot of dead draws, and while they make the deck consistent, it also means that the deck's threat density is a little low. Devotion decks can get away with running a million mana dorks because they're doing incredibly powerful things with it, but I'm less of a fan of the 8 mana dorks/4 wayfinders that this archetype often runs. I've been liking 4 wayfinders/4 caryatid/23 lands. Especially because the opponent can't screw you out of mana by throwing a removal spell at your dorks, as Caryatid has hexproof and Wayfinders isn't really a mana dork.
I'd put that deck solidly in the BG Constellation camp. It has random Nykthos for value to do things like cast two doomwakes in a single turn, but really it's findamentally a value Whip deck. That looks like Lucas Bluhon's list from a few weeks back.
It has 15 black sources, because of Sylvan Carytid.
And 22 lands is light, but Satyr Wayfinder gets extra land for you. So it's kinda like running 24-25 land (plus mana bugs).
To be clear, Sylvan Carytid is still awesome. But there's no great crashing need to ramp to 3 on turn 2 with Elvish Mystic like there is in a devotion deck.