It has 11 black land sources (plus a lot more if Urborg is one of them) along with 4 Caryatids and 4 Satyr Wayfinders to dig for black lands. And, it runs a double black whip.
Splashing a 3rd color affects the utility of Elvish Mystic, more come-into-play-tapped lands means less opportunity to cast a turn one Mystic. Turn 1 Mystic is vital for Turn 2 Courser; Turn 1 Mystic is not vital for Turn 3 Polukranos or Eidolon of Blossoms.
Short story is that you can still play a 4-drop on Turn 3 without a Mystic on Turn 1. It seems possible that if you are playing 3 colors (with a corresponding drop in untapped green sources on Turn 1) that it is better to play fewer Elvish Mytics. If I were playing Gbu, for instance, I think that Rattleclaw Mystic, Sylvan Caryatid, and Voyaging Satyr, would be more useful than Elvish Mystic.
And, this will potentially slow things down a step.
I'm not really sure what to do, I really liked the early control-style lists but clearly everyone has moved away from that. Is that because you guys think it's not viable anymore? Basically, is it more of a personal preference thing or just that the more midrange-y builds of late are simply stronger?
The midrange decks are just stronger, really. I have a great preference for playing control, but the power of Whip of Erebos pushes the midrange version over the top, giving Eidolon of Blossoms and Doomwake Giant the time they need to work while having a late game that is just as powerful as the control version would be. Not that playing a controlling version is totally not viable, but it's less powerful than simply playing Abzan Midrange or UB Control.
Has anyone tested or at least considered using Kruphix's Insight in the place of Commune? In a more Constellation-dedicated build that runs some number of Brain Maggots (and maybe even other less optimal enchantment creatures*), it could provide some neat card advantage. On that note, some of the less optimal creatures such as Boon Satyr and Nighthowler are neat for bestowing your Satyrs and Mystics for virtual CA or pushing through midrange stall fests. Nighthowler is especially interesting in the mirror or any other deck that runs Satyr Wayfinder or mill cards such as Sidisi.
I've been absent from MtG in any serious way for a long time, but the idea of trying to play Kruphix's insight caught my attention; this card is really potent card draw for what green normaly gets and goes into a deckstyle that I like very much. After some work, I played two dailies yesterday and two earlier in the week going 1-2, 3-1, 3-1, 4-0. This deck seems really strong, but I've gone much deeper on constellation that most of the other lists I see around, which is interesting.
I'm mostly just grinding out other Courser-based decks or using a barrage of life-gain/removal against the aggro decks until my late-game takes over. Control doesn't really seem to be a factor at the moment I imagine magic online may be a little more skewed towards fast aggro than most metas (I think I played against about 6 fast aggro lists in that 15 matches), which is certainly having an effect; e.g. it is why I cut hornet queen from the main. With that said, I haven't missed it too much. Here's my list:
Has anyone tested or at least considered using Kruphix's Insight in the place of Commune? In a more Constellation-dedicated build that runs some number of Brain Maggots (and maybe even other less optimal enchantment creatures*), it could provide some neat card advantage. On that note, some of the less optimal creatures such as Boon Satyr and Nighthowler are neat for bestowing your Satyrs and Mystics for virtual CA or pushing through midrange stall fests. Nighthowler is especially interesting in the mirror or any other deck that runs Satyr Wayfinder or mill cards such as Sidisi.
I've been absent from MtG in any serious way for a long time, but the idea of trying to play Kruphix's insight caught my attention; this card is really potent card draw for what green normaly gets and goes into a deckstyle that I like very much. After some work, I played two dailies yesterday and two earlier in the week going 1-2, 3-1, 3-1, 4-0. This deck seems really strong, but I've gone much deeper on constellation that most of the other lists I see around, which is interesting.
I'm mostly just grinding out other Courser-based decks or using a barrage of life-gain/removal against the aggro decks until my late-game takes over. Control doesn't really seem to be a factor at the moment I imagine magic online may be a little more skewed towards fast aggro than most metas (I think I played against about 6 fast aggro lists in that 15 matches), which is certainly having an effect; e.g. it is why I cut hornet queen from the main. With that said, I haven't missed it too much. Here's my list:
I don't really know the online metagame that well, but if your testing supports cutting Hornet Queen, I can follow that, though it's one of the biggest reasons this archetype has a good matchup against Abzan Midrange.
As for your list, if you're going to run Whip of Erebos, what is your reasoning for not running Siege Rhino? It's a better whip target than anything in the deck now that Hornet Queen isn't in, and it does a better job of stopping fast aggro than Underworld Coinsmith can. Even if Kruphix's Insight misses it, you can still just whip it back. Siege Rhino is really just going to do everything Coinsmith does, but better, except for the fact that it's not an enchantment. If you really don't want to run Siege Rhino for whatever reason, Nyx-Fleece Ram seems way better than Underworld Coinsmith. It blocks aggressive creatures better, gains you life at about the same rate, is easier to cast, and isn't dead against midrange because it still blocks Siege Rhino.
Does your list really want Whip of Erebos? The only card in your deck that is really that great to bring back is Doomwake Giant, who is a distant third compared to Hornet Queen and Siege Rhino. Whip of Erebos is a very slow card, and you're only running 3 total cards that can fuel it--Pharika even takes away from the whip's effectiveness. The traditional BGx Constellation whip decks can handle this because they're running 4 Commune with the Gods and 4 Satyr Wayfinders so that they will often have extra cards to use with Pharika, but you're running two Pharika and 5 fewer enablers. If you want to go the slow, controlling route with cards like Underworld Coinsmith--a card I still don't think is worth it--you probably just want to drop Whip of Erebos for another enchantment.
In line with that, do you want 8 mana dorks? Your curve tops off at 5, and most of your cards are 3 or less mana. Might you be better served going down to just the 4 Caryatids, going up a land or two, and adding in more enchantments? Maindeck Suppression Field, perhaps?
I saw an interesting Constellation list that, like yours, used Kruphix's Insight as an engine and ran a playset of Banishing Light and 3 Suppression Field in the maindeck, so that Kruphix's Insight could fetch removal easily. If you want to play the controlling version, do that, but at the moment you're kind of in between the controlling version and the Whip version, and your decklist isn't doing either strategy as strongly as it could be.
Standard Abzan midrange (rhino, roc, sorin/elspeth, removal, courser/caryatid) has been a non-issue for me so far; it's the deck I'm happiest to see opposite me by some distance. They aren't winning late, so they need to win early, but you're actually coming out about as fast as they are. Not sure why others are needing the queen; perhaps Kruphix's insight and a better-fuelled eidolon is providing the late-game edge others are getting from hornet queen?
Basically what I was finding with hornet queen was that I was losing to boss sligh, jeskai and heroic lists long before it had a chance to be relevant. It's great in the green mirror, especially, if they don't have doomwake, but that defined it as a sideboard card for me (it's weak where the deck is weak, strong where it is already strong).
Interesting point about whip; I've definitely weakened its recursion ability massively. The mass lifegain from whip has often been critical to survival though; I'm not sure how else I'd get that. Soul of theros maybe? I think there's actually a paucity of decent 4+ mana enchantments, so what is whip being replaced with? Also worth noting when you have this many enchantments, especially two-mana enchantments, whipping back a doomwake can be converted into plague wind surprisingly often. On your point about filling/draining the yard, note most lists run murderous cut as another drain on the graveyard.
Underworld coinsmith is absolutely the weakest card in the deck, wasn't there originally, and is basically a concession to boss sligh murdering me over and over again, though it's also acceptable against jeskai or anyone else likely to throw burn at your head. Siege Rhino is much more expensive than the coinsmith and so doesn't really fill the same role. Nyx-fleece ram I've gone back and forth on, but once again the point of those cards is Boss Sligh; coinsmith is better here because the life-gain is immediate, there tend to be no individually large creatures for a ram to block, and coinsmith often kills things or forces pump spells by blocking. If I was struggling with Abzan at all, I'd play rams since blocking siege rhino is pretty sweet. This is a pair I certainly keep looking at though; pretty much every time I draw coinsmith I'm saying 'would I rather this was a ram' and vice-versa. It wouldn't take a big metagame move for me to flip.
For discussion purposes, it might help to consider my list as partially pre-sideboarded against sligh because cheap mono-red is and always has been more popular online than in paper. If I were going to a paper tournament I would be -3 coinsmith, +1 maggot, +2 hornet queen.
Fair point on the mystics; I will try to experiment with this. Something like -4 mystics, +1 insight, +1 banishing light, +1 land, +1 suspension field might shift the deck correctly. As with all such changes, it's about whether you can survive the fast decks. I do side some number of mystics out a lot. Though insight is probably better thought of as a 7+ mana card.
This is what I ran at a recent 5 round standard event. I went 4-1 with my loss to UB control.
I cut 4x murderous cuts and 4x satyr wayfinders for 4 thoughtseize, 1 agent, 1 bow, 2stain the mind against any form of UB or UW control.
How do you all deal UB control that runs 4 vaults?
This is what I ran at a recent 5 round standard event. I went 4-1 with my loss to UB control.
I cut 4x murderous cuts and 4x satyr wayfinders for 4 thoughtseize, 1 agent, 1 bow, 2stain the mind against any form of UB or UW control.
How do you all deal UB control that runs 4 vaults?
UB Control is, along with Jeskai Ascendancy Combo (The non-heroic version), our absolute worst matchup, as Perilous Vault is very difficult to beat. Our best bet is usually sideboarding in Nissa, Worldwaker, and getting her past their counterspells. However, there isn't really much we can do--their game plan is just naturally very, very, very good against ours.
I've been toying with the idea of a transformative sideboard, just to see how that works, but I haven't been able to test much lately, as this semester is winding down and exams are looming. When I get the chance to actually attend an event, I'll post more about it.
Eh, I never know if it'll be standard fnm or modern fnm.
I've been looking at all the lists, and I can't help think that going white or staying GB is the best option. Adding blue to my deck just isn't working for me, and the deck is way less consistent than it was last standard. Is it just me?
While I think the Sidisi Whip decks are fine decks, I think if you're playing Constellation, Sultai isn't where you want to be. The blue version probably has the best control matchup of the three decks, but it doesn't really gain enough for the maindeck to justify playing blue, in my opinion, and certainly nothing as powerful as Siege Rhino. GB brings consistency, white brings some more power.
@seeknayr: Plea for Guidance is just way too slow of a spell to run for something that doesn't impact the board at all. We had some discussion on Kruphix's Insight earlier in the thread if you want to check that out, but to summarize, it's good if you're really deep into the Constellation theme--not playing whip of erebos, and playing playsets of Suspension Field and Banishing Light so that it has maximum impact. If you want to stick with the GB or Abzan Whip lists, Commune with the Gods is just better because it's cheaper, plays more nicely with Murderous Cut, and can find Siege Rhino and Hornet Queen.
What are people's sideboards looking like nowadays?
It all depends on what you are expecting. Our worst matchup is UB control, so I personally have 4 Thoughtseize and 2 Nissa vs them. Then another Pharika and maxing out Doomwakes are good. Some number of Nylea's Disciple is good vs aggro. And with what's left, Unravel the Aether vs Whip/Constellation/Ascendancy.
This was the Channel Fireball list from the World Championship (played by Owen Turtenwald, Reid Duke and William Jenson):
Classes recently got out for me, so I can now return my attention from finals to magic. UB control and other control decks have recently become more popular where I am, so my list has shifted somewhat to reflect this. Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver is a terrifying card against us, so I've moved my removal suite around in my maindeck to acount for it. I'm currently trying out 4 Banishing Light and 2 Murderous Cut, rather than the opposite, so that I have more relevant cards against control. With Siege Rhino in my maindeck, I'm less concerned about getting aggro'd out, so I've found Banishing Light's ability to hit 'walkers and Whip of Erebos to be incredibly valuable. It also can be found with Commune with the Gods, which has saved my life on several occasions.
My sideboard isn't really in a solid place right now, but I'm trying out Utter End in the sideboard, essentially as Banishing Lights 5-6. The biggest difficulty against Control is dealing with a resolved Ashiok or a Perilous Vault, and having more answers to those has been a lifesaver. Cards like Perilous Vault, Whip of Erebos, and Jeskai Ascendancy make Utter End somewhat favored for me over Hero's Downfall. Once I've hammered out a solid sideboard I'll post my current list.
BG Whip won Cardmageddon and when the winner was asked which card he considered the MVP he snapped with Genesis Hydra, which he was running in his SB. He said that in hindsight he would at least cut an Eidolon for Hydra MB and would see if he could work the list to include 2 MB. I only watched the finals and the one time I saw him cast Hydra he used it to find Whip to pull out a win vs. UW Heroic. Seems like a very good inclusion to me.
BG Whip won Cardmageddon and when the winner was asked which card he considered the MVP he snapped with Genesis Hydra, which he was running in his SB. He said that in hindsight he would at least cut an Eidolon for Hydra MB and would see if he could work the list to include 2 MB. I only watched the finals and the one time I saw him cast Hydra he used it to find Whip to pull out a win vs. UW Heroic. Seems like a very good inclusion to me.
Hydra is very useful, especially in a list where you have multiple playsets of 4 drops such as more GB devotion-oriented lists that can play Eidolon, Polukranos, Whip, and Gods to breach the 6 CMC slot between Doomwake and Hornet Queen. I've been trying out 2 in every GBx iteration that can support a constellation package, and it's been very useful at outgrinding/filtering. I currently run Abzan Constellation (splashing for Rhino and Banishing Light) and hitting either with it is great. Pros: great with Courser and can dodge counters for resolving an important card in your deck as the ability goes on the stack as soon as Hydra is cast.
BG Whip won Cardmageddon and when the winner was asked which card he considered the MVP he snapped with Genesis Hydra, which he was running in his SB. He said that in hindsight he would at least cut an Eidolon for Hydra MB and would see if he could work the list to include 2 MB. I only watched the finals and the one time I saw him cast Hydra he used it to find Whip to pull out a win vs. UW Heroic. Seems like a very good inclusion to me.
I tried google, but can't find the deck lists. Could you provide a link?
BG Whip won Cardmageddon and when the winner was asked which card he considered the MVP he snapped with Genesis Hydra, which he was running in his SB. He said that in hindsight he would at least cut an Eidolon for Hydra MB and would see if he could work the list to include 2 MB. I only watched the finals and the one time I saw him cast Hydra he used it to find Whip to pull out a win vs. UW Heroic. Seems like a very good inclusion to me.
I tried googe, but can't find the deck lists. Could you provide a link?
Thanks for the list. If I were trying to put 2 Genesis Hydra MB, I think I'd cut an Eidolon and the Hero's Downfall.
I'm curious about the lack of enchantment removal. CVM (using a Brad Nelson deck) played 3 Reclamation Sages in the main last weekend, a nod to both Whip and Ascendency decks, I believe. That seems more reactionary than is ideal, but they are much better players (and deck builders) than I am. What are your thoughts about reactionary cards and the need for enchantment removal in the current meta?
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Thanks for the list. If I were trying to put 2 Genesis Hydra MB, I think I'd cut an Eidolon and the Hero's Downfall.
I'm curious about the lack of enchantment removal. CVM (using a Brad Nelson deck) played 3 Reclamation Sages in the main last weekend, a nod to both Whip and Ascendency decks, I believe. That seems more reactionary than is ideal, but they are much better players (and deck builders) than I am. What are your thoughts about reactionary cards and the need for enchantment removal in the current meta?
I believe Eric Frolich placed 4th in that same tournament with Abzan Whip and 3 Reclamation Sage MB. IMO, I've managed to slip at least 1 Reclamation Sage MB in my GB, Sultai, Abzan and 4C Whip decks recently because I too believe that it's a necessary evil now. I think how many you run comes down to card selection and how well you can utilize your graveyard. In any list where I run Sidisi, Brood Tyrant I find that I only need a single Reclamation Sage MB because between being able to mill at will and Soul of Innistrad my chances of having access to the Sage increase greatly. In GB lists I think 1 is also fine between Eidolon and the newly added Genesis Hydra (in testing it really is very good). In Abzan I run 2 MB because it's simply harder to find.
The biggest problem I see with most of the pros adopting 3 Reclamation Sage MB for GB is that our edge in the mirror is essentially gone. Being able to go bigger quicker, akin the G/x Devotion still helps greatly (another reason why Genesis Hydra is so good) but with so much MB enchantment hate they can slow us down quite easily g1.
Playing Abzan Constellation, I feel like I have a solid feel on every matchup except Sidisi Constellation/Whip. What cards (especially sideboard) do people like in that matchup? Anafenza seems solid if she doesn't get removed, but other than thoughtseize to remove their post sideboard walkers I'm not sure what other cards are "good".
Hi all, just getting into this deck, and working from the Duke/Fabiano worlds list but without Ashiok. At FNM I played against a 95% mirror, a GB whip list with Nemesis of Mortals and such oddities, and a BUG control list. I find the deck is fun to play and very complex as well. The biggest problem in the mirror matches seems the inability to close games quickly with all that lifegain. Besides Reclamation Sage is there anything else that would speed up the kill? What is the sideboarding plan?
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Current Awesome Deck: UWAll-In GiftsWU Consistent, Resiliant, and way overpowered, making multiple 4/4s per turn.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWUFree Stuff MidrangeUWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
When should i cast Reclamation Sage and when should I hold back? I see 3 main targets: Blossoms, Whip, Giant. Are they equally important to kill, or is one more so? Would you bring Silence the Believers to take out Pharika etc., or no?
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Current Awesome Deck: UWAll-In GiftsWU Consistent, Resiliant, and way overpowered, making multiple 4/4s per turn.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWUFree Stuff MidrangeUWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
I don't think you can just add a source 1-for-1 with the Caryatids since there is a cost to getting it into play. But, it's probably close.
Short story is that you can still play a 4-drop on Turn 3 without a Mystic on Turn 1. It seems possible that if you are playing 3 colors (with a corresponding drop in untapped green sources on Turn 1) that it is better to play fewer Elvish Mytics. If I were playing Gbu, for instance, I think that Rattleclaw Mystic, Sylvan Caryatid, and Voyaging Satyr, would be more useful than Elvish Mystic.
And, this will potentially slow things down a step.
The midrange decks are just stronger, really. I have a great preference for playing control, but the power of Whip of Erebos pushes the midrange version over the top, giving Eidolon of Blossoms and Doomwake Giant the time they need to work while having a late game that is just as powerful as the control version would be. Not that playing a controlling version is totally not viable, but it's less powerful than simply playing Abzan Midrange or UB Control.
I've been absent from MtG in any serious way for a long time, but the idea of trying to play Kruphix's insight caught my attention; this card is really potent card draw for what green normaly gets and goes into a deckstyle that I like very much. After some work, I played two dailies yesterday and two earlier in the week going 1-2, 3-1, 3-1, 4-0. This deck seems really strong, but I've gone much deeper on constellation that most of the other lists I see around, which is interesting.
I'm mostly just grinding out other Courser-based decks or using a barrage of life-gain/removal against the aggro decks until my late-game takes over. Control doesn't really seem to be a factor at the moment I imagine magic online may be a little more skewed towards fast aggro than most metas (I think I played against about 6 fast aggro lists in that 15 matches), which is certainly having an effect; e.g. it is why I cut hornet queen from the main. With that said, I haven't missed it too much. Here's my list:
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
3 Temple of Silence
3 Forest
2 Temple of Malady
1 Plains
1 Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Caves of Koilos
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Underworld Coinsmith
3 Brain Maggot
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Pharika, God of Affliction
4 Eidolon of Blossoms
4 Doomwake Giant
3 Banishing Light
3 Whip of Erebos
3 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
3 Suspension Field
2 Nyx-fleece Ram
2 Hornet Queen
1 Banishing Light
1 Brain Maggot
1 Underworld Coinsmith
1 Kruphix's Insight
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
Feedback welcome.
2011-2012:Bantblade, BantPod
2010-2011:Bant Shaman, Naya Shaman, Naya allies + Scars, URG Turboforce
2009-2010:Naya allies, Mono-White Titan Control
I don't really know the online metagame that well, but if your testing supports cutting Hornet Queen, I can follow that, though it's one of the biggest reasons this archetype has a good matchup against Abzan Midrange.
As for your list, if you're going to run Whip of Erebos, what is your reasoning for not running Siege Rhino? It's a better whip target than anything in the deck now that Hornet Queen isn't in, and it does a better job of stopping fast aggro than Underworld Coinsmith can. Even if Kruphix's Insight misses it, you can still just whip it back. Siege Rhino is really just going to do everything Coinsmith does, but better, except for the fact that it's not an enchantment. If you really don't want to run Siege Rhino for whatever reason, Nyx-Fleece Ram seems way better than Underworld Coinsmith. It blocks aggressive creatures better, gains you life at about the same rate, is easier to cast, and isn't dead against midrange because it still blocks Siege Rhino.
Does your list really want Whip of Erebos? The only card in your deck that is really that great to bring back is Doomwake Giant, who is a distant third compared to Hornet Queen and Siege Rhino. Whip of Erebos is a very slow card, and you're only running 3 total cards that can fuel it--Pharika even takes away from the whip's effectiveness. The traditional BGx Constellation whip decks can handle this because they're running 4 Commune with the Gods and 4 Satyr Wayfinders so that they will often have extra cards to use with Pharika, but you're running two Pharika and 5 fewer enablers. If you want to go the slow, controlling route with cards like Underworld Coinsmith--a card I still don't think is worth it--you probably just want to drop Whip of Erebos for another enchantment.
In line with that, do you want 8 mana dorks? Your curve tops off at 5, and most of your cards are 3 or less mana. Might you be better served going down to just the 4 Caryatids, going up a land or two, and adding in more enchantments? Maindeck Suppression Field, perhaps?
I saw an interesting Constellation list that, like yours, used Kruphix's Insight as an engine and ran a playset of Banishing Light and 3 Suppression Field in the maindeck, so that Kruphix's Insight could fetch removal easily. If you want to play the controlling version, do that, but at the moment you're kind of in between the controlling version and the Whip version, and your decklist isn't doing either strategy as strongly as it could be.
Standard Abzan midrange (rhino, roc, sorin/elspeth, removal, courser/caryatid) has been a non-issue for me so far; it's the deck I'm happiest to see opposite me by some distance. They aren't winning late, so they need to win early, but you're actually coming out about as fast as they are. Not sure why others are needing the queen; perhaps Kruphix's insight and a better-fuelled eidolon is providing the late-game edge others are getting from hornet queen?
Basically what I was finding with hornet queen was that I was losing to boss sligh, jeskai and heroic lists long before it had a chance to be relevant. It's great in the green mirror, especially, if they don't have doomwake, but that defined it as a sideboard card for me (it's weak where the deck is weak, strong where it is already strong).
Interesting point about whip; I've definitely weakened its recursion ability massively. The mass lifegain from whip has often been critical to survival though; I'm not sure how else I'd get that. Soul of theros maybe? I think there's actually a paucity of decent 4+ mana enchantments, so what is whip being replaced with? Also worth noting when you have this many enchantments, especially two-mana enchantments, whipping back a doomwake can be converted into plague wind surprisingly often. On your point about filling/draining the yard, note most lists run murderous cut as another drain on the graveyard.
Underworld coinsmith is absolutely the weakest card in the deck, wasn't there originally, and is basically a concession to boss sligh murdering me over and over again, though it's also acceptable against jeskai or anyone else likely to throw burn at your head. Siege Rhino is much more expensive than the coinsmith and so doesn't really fill the same role. Nyx-fleece ram I've gone back and forth on, but once again the point of those cards is Boss Sligh; coinsmith is better here because the life-gain is immediate, there tend to be no individually large creatures for a ram to block, and coinsmith often kills things or forces pump spells by blocking. If I was struggling with Abzan at all, I'd play rams since blocking siege rhino is pretty sweet. This is a pair I certainly keep looking at though; pretty much every time I draw coinsmith I'm saying 'would I rather this was a ram' and vice-versa. It wouldn't take a big metagame move for me to flip.
For discussion purposes, it might help to consider my list as partially pre-sideboarded against sligh because cheap mono-red is and always has been more popular online than in paper. If I were going to a paper tournament I would be -3 coinsmith, +1 maggot, +2 hornet queen.
Fair point on the mystics; I will try to experiment with this. Something like -4 mystics, +1 insight, +1 banishing light, +1 land, +1 suspension field might shift the deck correctly. As with all such changes, it's about whether you can survive the fast decks. I do side some number of mystics out a lot. Though insight is probably better thought of as a 7+ mana card.
2011-2012:Bantblade, BantPod
2010-2011:Bant Shaman, Naya Shaman, Naya allies + Scars, URG Turboforce
2009-2010:Naya allies, Mono-White Titan Control
4x Courser of Kruphix
3x Doomwake Giant
4x Eidolon of Blossoms
4x Elvish Mystic
3x Hornet Queen
1x Pharika, God of Affliction
1x Reclamation Sage
4x Satyr Wayfinder
4x Sylvan Caryatid
4x Llanowar Wastes
2x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2x Swamp
2x Temple of Malady
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Windswept Heath
4x Murderous Cut
4x Commune with the Gods
4x Thoughtseize
3x Nylea's Disciple
2x Arbor Colossus
2x Stain the mind
1x Bow of nylea
1x Agent of Erebos
2x Extinguish all Hope
This is what I ran at a recent 5 round standard event. I went 4-1 with my loss to UB control.
I cut 4x murderous cuts and 4x satyr wayfinders for 4 thoughtseize, 1 agent, 1 bow, 2stain the mind against any form of UB or UW control.
How do you all deal UB control that runs 4 vaults?
UB Control is, along with Jeskai Ascendancy Combo (The non-heroic version), our absolute worst matchup, as Perilous Vault is very difficult to beat. Our best bet is usually sideboarding in Nissa, Worldwaker, and getting her past their counterspells. However, there isn't really much we can do--their game plan is just naturally very, very, very good against ours.
I've been toying with the idea of a transformative sideboard, just to see how that works, but I haven't been able to test much lately, as this semester is winding down and exams are looming. When I get the chance to actually attend an event, I'll post more about it.
Why not just use 4 Polluted Deltas and switch them between the two decks?
Modern: UWR Control
EDH: Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Titania, Protector of Argoth
Phelddagrif
Glissa, the Traitor
Rosheen Meanderer
RIP Jimmy foREVer
I've been looking at all the lists, and I can't help think that going white or staying GB is the best option. Adding blue to my deck just isn't working for me, and the deck is way less consistent than it was last standard. Is it just me?
Modern: UWR Control
EDH: Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Titania, Protector of Argoth
Phelddagrif
Glissa, the Traitor
Rosheen Meanderer
RIP Jimmy foREVer
@seeknayr: Plea for Guidance is just way too slow of a spell to run for something that doesn't impact the board at all. We had some discussion on Kruphix's Insight earlier in the thread if you want to check that out, but to summarize, it's good if you're really deep into the Constellation theme--not playing whip of erebos, and playing playsets of Suspension Field and Banishing Light so that it has maximum impact. If you want to stick with the GB or Abzan Whip lists, Commune with the Gods is just better because it's cheaper, plays more nicely with Murderous Cut, and can find Siege Rhino and Hornet Queen.
It all depends on what you are expecting. Our worst matchup is UB control, so I personally have 4 Thoughtseize and 2 Nissa vs them. Then another Pharika and maxing out Doomwakes are good. Some number of Nylea's Disciple is good vs aggro. And with what's left, Unravel the Aether vs Whip/Constellation/Ascendancy.
This was the Channel Fireball list from the World Championship (played by Owen Turtenwald, Reid Duke and William Jenson):
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Pharika, God of Affliction
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Eidolon of Blossoms
3 Doomwake Giant
4 Satyr Wayfinder
2 Commune with the Gods
3 Whip of Erebos
3 Hornet Queen
4 Murderous Cut
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Windswept Heath
5 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Llanowar Wastes
2 Jungle Hollow
4 Temple of Malady
2 Thoughtseize
3 Hero's Downfall
1 Bile Blight
1 Drown in Sorrow
2 Read the Bones
4 Arbor Colossus
2 Reclamation Sage
My sideboard isn't really in a solid place right now, but I'm trying out Utter End in the sideboard, essentially as Banishing Lights 5-6. The biggest difficulty against Control is dealing with a resolved Ashiok or a Perilous Vault, and having more answers to those has been a lifesaver. Cards like Perilous Vault, Whip of Erebos, and Jeskai Ascendancy make Utter End somewhat favored for me over Hero's Downfall. Once I've hammered out a solid sideboard I'll post my current list.
Hydra is very useful, especially in a list where you have multiple playsets of 4 drops such as more GB devotion-oriented lists that can play Eidolon, Polukranos, Whip, and Gods to breach the 6 CMC slot between Doomwake and Hornet Queen. I've been trying out 2 in every GBx iteration that can support a constellation package, and it's been very useful at outgrinding/filtering. I currently run Abzan Constellation (splashing for Rhino and Banishing Light) and hitting either with it is great. Pros: great with Courser and can dodge counters for resolving an important card in your deck as the ability goes on the stack as soon as Hydra is cast.
2 Elvish Mystic
4 Satyr Wayfinder
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
4 Eidolon of Blossoms
3 Doomwake Giant
3 Hornet Queen
Other (12)
2 Thoughtseize
2 Commune with the Gods
1 Hero's Downfall
3 Whip of Erebos
4 Murderous Cut
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Temple of Malady
2 Jungle Hollow
2 Windswept Heath
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
6 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Thoughtseize
1 Bile Blight
1 Drown in Sorrow
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Hero's Downfall
4 Arbor Colossus
4 Genesis Hydra
I'm curious about the lack of enchantment removal. CVM (using a Brad Nelson deck) played 3 Reclamation Sages in the main last weekend, a nod to both Whip and Ascendency decks, I believe. That seems more reactionary than is ideal, but they are much better players (and deck builders) than I am. What are your thoughts about reactionary cards and the need for enchantment removal in the current meta?
I believe Eric Frolich placed 4th in that same tournament with Abzan Whip and 3 Reclamation Sage MB. IMO, I've managed to slip at least 1 Reclamation Sage MB in my GB, Sultai, Abzan and 4C Whip decks recently because I too believe that it's a necessary evil now. I think how many you run comes down to card selection and how well you can utilize your graveyard. In any list where I run Sidisi, Brood Tyrant I find that I only need a single Reclamation Sage MB because between being able to mill at will and Soul of Innistrad my chances of having access to the Sage increase greatly. In GB lists I think 1 is also fine between Eidolon and the newly added Genesis Hydra (in testing it really is very good). In Abzan I run 2 MB because it's simply harder to find.
The biggest problem I see with most of the pros adopting 3 Reclamation Sage MB for GB is that our edge in the mirror is essentially gone. Being able to go bigger quicker, akin the G/x Devotion still helps greatly (another reason why Genesis Hydra is so good) but with so much MB enchantment hate they can slow us down quite easily g1.
1x Caves of Koilos
4x Forest
3x Llanowar Wastes
1x Plains
4x Sandsteppe Citadel
1x Swamp
3x Temple of Malady
1x Temple of Plenty
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Windswept Heath
Artifact (2)
2x Whip of Erebos
Creature (26)
4x Courser of Kruphix
3x Doomwake Giant
3x Eidolon of Blossoms
1x Elvish Mystic
3x Hornet Queen
1x Pharika, God of Affliction
4x Satyr Wayfinder
3x Siege Rhino
4x Sylvan Caryatid
2x Banishing Light
Instant (7)
3x Abzan Charm
1x Hero's Downfall
3x Murderous Cut
2x Arbor Colossus
1x Banishing Light
1x Doomwake Giant
2x Hero's Downfall
2x Nissa, Worldwaker
1x Pharika, God of Affliction
3x Reclamation Sage
3x Thoughtseize
Decks
Modern
BGR Jund RGB
BW Eldrazi and Taxes WB
BWGAbzan Company GWB
Mtgo Modern
G Company Elves G
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG