Constellation decks were on the cusp of playabiltiy in the previous standard, but the metagame just wasn't the place for them at the time. However, the deck has lost very little coming into Khans of Tarkir, and is primed to be a real force in the coming metagame. This archetype is defined mostly by the usage of the primary constellation card, Eidolon of Blossoms. This innocuous 2/2 gives this deck access to a card advantage engine that isn't really equaled in this format.
There are quite a few ways to build with Constellation, and this thread looked over many different kinds of decks, but the build that has been doing the best has been the B/G constellation decks that have been top 8-ing recently, relying on a Constellation package and Whip of Erebos to stabilize and generate game-breaking value. Given the recent success of these builds, I've changed the first post to reflect the deck that's currently doing the best, though other Constellation archetypes are certainly open for discussion here.
Here is a fairly representative list that took 3rd at a recent SCG open:
There is some variation between lists, but this is a good representation of the core of the deck.
This archetype is consistent, resilient, and capable of some truly insane plays with Whip of Erebos and Hornet Queen or multiple Constellation creatures. The deck is not without its downsides, as we have a truly horrible game 1 matchup to Jeskai Ascendancy Combo, and Control isn't a very good matchup, but these are fixable out of the sideboard, and we have solid matchups everywhere else.
Sideboard is in flux as usual -- trying out a thing where game 1 is about walling with creatures and killing with planeswalkers, and subsequent games use knowledge of the opponent's deck to shred them up in lieu of some delve power.
This version essentially seeks to wall the enemy with large bodies and/or deathtouch tokens, maintaining card advantage while it digs for both answers and threats of its own.
Going into blue essentially enables Kiora and Sultai Ascendancy as well as some sideboard tech later on. The majority of this deck is GB, however.
The self-mill allows for Pharika to more effectively wall off enemies, and her snakes create more constellation triggers in turn. Delve is great earlygame after even one Wayfinder, though lategame you'll find you only need to exile 1 or 2 cards with the amount of land drops you'll be hitting.
Thanks for the extremely well-developed opening post to introduce this archetype into new standard. I had a lot of fun playing it pre-rotation, although it clearly just didn't have the muster to be top tier then.
Your list looks really streamlined and clean, and I would also favor going the control route as you've done. Constellation does have a "glacial slowness" as you so aptly described, but once it gets rolling it's really a house. I've messed around with different cards like spiteful returned, boon satyr and herald of torment, but I'm in agreement that the sheep and the maggot are where we want to be at the 2 spot, and being too clogged at the 3 is really bad. Another random thought - a lot of people don't understand how powerful extinguish all hope can be. Overall I really like the positioning of the deck going into new standard. Our main fears are hard control, as you mentioned, and then a single card in back to nature. Luckily I think we can play around it with brain maggot and thoughtseize out of the board.
I wish I had more to contribute right now, but the above list looks super thorough as a starting point. I'll be sure to refer back to this thread for updates, in addition to adding any suggestions I have after testing with it. Cheers!
I've been getting a lot of testing done on Cockatrice, so I've gotten a feel for a few different matchups so far.
1. Rabble Red: A solid choice last standard that remains strong now, I expect Rabble Red to be a force in the metagame, taking advantage of the 3-color decks' relative slowness. and though we're slow, we're *very* good at stalling. The name of the game is, essentially, stalling until we can cast an Elspeth or Extinguish All Hope, and just take the game from that point on. Nyx-Fleece Ram is at it's absolute best here. We also have plenty of removal for Goblin Rabblemaster itself, though Abzan Charm does require him to be attacking. Brain Maggot also notably takes him away the turn before he comes down, and I've passed on playing Nyx-Fleece Ram Turn 2 just to stop Goblin Rabblemaster in removal-light hands. This matchup, I would say, is about even pre-sideboard, as though the deck is capable of some ridiculous draws, if we can go Nyx-Fleece Ram into Courser of Kruphix, the game is basically over. If we have removal at the right time, we can stabilize. If we don't kill Goblin Rabblemaster, it can completely overwhelm us. After sideboarding, the matchup goes from being decent to amazing, as we can profitably run 4 Drown in Sorrow, and Doomwake Giant is an absolute nightmare for that deck, as it slaughters a lot of it's creatures just by making an appearance, is out of burn range without help, and it acts as a repeatable sweeper. I side out Eidolon of Blossoms here, as we don't really need more cards to outlast monored, and Extinguish All Hope, because Doomwake Giant does a lot of the same job and is faster.
2. Mardu Aggro/Midrange: A slower aggro deck/faster midrange deck that uses Sarkhan, Dragonspeaker and Butcher of the Horde as it's top of the curve, this is an even better matchup than Rabble Red. Nyx-Fleece Ram isn't super relevant here, as it blocks fewer things, but it still pads our life, and our removal is way more live against this deck. Baiting the oppponent into sacrificing a creature with Butcher of the Horde before Abzan Charming it is delightful, and my deck has 10 maindeck ways to solve the Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker problem. These decks usually run Goblin Rabblemaster as well, but he's not as threatening in this archetype. I sideboard less against this archetype, as Eidolon of Blossoms is largely fine and Extinguish All Hope is better. I do run two Silence the Believers in my sideboard, so those come in.
3. Abzan Midrange: Though this deck shares our colors and classification, we are very different decks. This isn't really a matchup I'm worried about. Nyx-Fleece Ram blocks the majority of their threats, they're slow enough that our removal can easily keep pace with them, and Eidolon of Blossoms is fantastic here. Not that the matchup is unloseable by any means---if they drop an Elspeth and we can't deal with it, we're still going to lose. But I've won the majority of my games against it, as Extinguish All Hope is such a ridiculous card in midrange mirrors. I've gone from being dead on board to having an unassailable board position just by simply casting this card. People often don't expect to have to worry about overextending against a deck like this, and Extinguish All Hope punishes them severely for attempting to.
4. Temur Midrange/RG Monsters: I'm lumping these two decks together because the strengths and weaknesses I have against them are largely the same. They're fast, but their creatures are all susceptible to our removal, and Extinguish All Hope ruins them. Eidolon of Blossoms is fantastic in midrange matchups, as she just keeps the removal flowing. Planeswalkers are a little annoying for this deck, as we usually are going to have to kill them directly with a Banishing Light or a Hero's Downfall, but they're managable. Especially once Elspeth joins the party. This matchup is notable, however, because one of this deck's most annoying foes makes an appearance---Stormbreath Dragon. 7 out of my available 10 removal spells miss him, and if I don't have a Downfall ready or an Elspeth/Extinguish All Hope ready to follow him next turn, he can completely steal away a game from us. Silence the Believers is a breath of fresh air in this matchup, and I take out Nyx-Fleece Ram for it because it's less relevant in this matchup, as things are flying over it or Polukranos is just crashing through it. It's perfectly servicable game 1, but I don't need the full playset in the other games.
5. BUG control: A popular choice before the rotation, this is one of our stranger matchups. We have a weakness to control decks, but we can still make it incredibly difficult for them to actually win, as Banishing Light and Hero's Downfall curb planeswalker problems. This matchup is ridiculously draw-dependent. If you draw a bunch of Nyx-Fleece Rams, you're basically doomed, but Brain Maggots, Abzan Charm, Downfalls, and Eidolon can lead you to victory. After sideboarding, this matchup becomes more more palatable, as you don't have to deal with topdecking a Nyx-Fleece Ram and just having a dead card anymore. I've been trying out Empty the Pits as a finisher against control decks, as we're so ridiculously slow that we might as well just accept that and play a finisher that accompanies such a strategy. Brain Maggot and Thoughtseize clear the way for it, and then we can just take a game in a couple combat steps, if we even need that many. I haven't decided whether or not it's correct to leave in Extinguish All Hope. It's largely a dead card, except for the fact that it kills Prognostic Sphinx, which we otherwise cannot answer. This, and other control decks, will easily be our most unfavorable matchups, and if control is very popular/dominant in your metagame, Abzan Constellation probably isn't the correct choice, though Sultai Constellation very well could be, with it's ability to run counterspells.
6. Sultai Dredge: This is a strange matchup. Empty the Pits is a great card against us, but the shell of a deck it's in isn't. So most of this matchup is just trying to play around Empty the Pits. Sidisi doesn't threaten us much, as we can remove her in several different ways, but Empty the Pits REALLY threatens us. My solution to this matchup has usually been using Brain Maggot to force out an Empty the Pits early, and then dealing with it. As such, I generally save Brain Maggot for later in the game, and try and cast it the same turn I'd be able to cast an Elspeth or an Extinguish All Hope, so that I have game against the zombies should they appear. After sideboarding, this matchup gets better, as I run Stain the Mind and Thoughtseize out of the board, both excellent ways to keep tabs on Empty the Pits. If we can Stain the Mind an Empty the Pits, we can almost take this game at our leisure.
7. URx Affinity: I mention this deck not necessarily because I think it's good, but because it is one I've played multiple times on Cockatrice, so I figure it bears mention. This deck tries to win by using Shrapnel Blast and Ensoul Artifact, along with Chief Engineer, so deliver lots of damage, curving out with Scuttling Doom Engine. This deck is such a nonissue for this archetype that it's almost amusing. We run 7 maindeck exiling effects, so Scuttling Doom Engine doesn't necessarily have the inevitability it has against other decks, and an animated Darksteel Citadel will often eat a Nyx-Fleece Ram and then find it's Ensoul Artifact trapped by a Banishing Light, or even better, be obliterated entirely by an Abzan Charm doing it's best Vindicate impression.
Those are the decks I've been running across the most, and I've found that our matchups across the board are pretty good, with notable weaknesses to Control and Empty the Pits-based decks Game 1. We also, notably, have a weakness to Back to Nature, but it's not clear if that's a card we really even have to worry about. Back to Nature isn't a good Enchantment removal card, because it can't get rid of Gods, and it can also kill your own Enchantments (Coursers), so it's subpar as a sideboard card unless you're specifically siding it in against Constellation decks, against which it is obviously very good. It eats up slots in the sideboard, though, and if a deck wants to run enchantment removal, they'll be faced with the choice of whether or not to just run Deicide/Erase/Unravel the Aether and have a way to deal with gods that doesn't hurt them and still is good against Constellation, or run a card that is ONLY good against Constellation, and then either a)Not have a way to remove enchantments or b)take up even more slots in their sideboard to be able to do both, worsening their other matchups by reducing available sideboard space. If a Constellation deck is ever dominant, then Back to Nature is definitely a good choice, but outside of that scenario I'm not sure it'll ever be worth running. It also doesn't completely secure a win against us, as Brain Maggot and Thoughtseize can still pluck it out if their hand, Stain the Mind can get rid of it entirely, and even if it does resolve, we have enough removal to hang in there until we can come back from that. And as good as Back to Nature is against this deck, it doesn't stop our actual win condition, Elspeth. So if we've dropped Elspeth, Back to Nature can come in and do all it wants, Elspeth still is capable of just taking over the game. It also doesn't help that if we got out an Eidolon and started cantripping, even if Back to Nature kills our board progress, we still drew a card for most of the enchantments it destroyed anyway, so while it's crippling, it's not a completely awful trade.
Thanks for posting the new thread, Admiral! Reading your list with interest and waiting impatiently for my preordered Khans boxes to arrive so I can get to building. Definitely agreed with you on Abzan being correct for Constellation control. But what do you think about Sultai for a revival of last Standard's Dredge / Strength from the Fallen constellation deck? Taigam's Scheming seems good enough as a dredge enabler to run alongside the remaining options... Or is there already a thread for that deck?
I notice you are running the tap trilands... how are those working out for you? With only four taplands I would be tempted to do a 2/2 split of the common lifegainers, just to try to counteract some of the life loss from the fetches and wastes. Or do the MD Rams and Courser-fetch combo make this less of an issue than it appears?
Have to say, these wedge trilands are giving me a great nostalgic feel for Shards block. Really hoping 5-color control makes a resurgence. If it does, do you see Abzan Constellation as having game against it?
Hey, Kasreyn. The trilands are probably just too good not to run, despite their slowness. They provide amazing fixing, and given this deck's relative speed, coming into play tapped isn't a huge downside. My problems with the Strength from the Fallen deck haven't changed much since last standard. I think a BUG deck that utilizes the graveyard is really, really, really going to want Sidisi, Brood Tyrant, and I'm not sure Strength from the Fallen is the best way to go about utilizing her. Strength from the Fallen is horrible with Delve, so that disqualifies a lot of cards, and you really only have 12 or 14 enchantments that really fit in that deck well, assuming 4 copies each of Sultai Ascendancy, Nyx Weaver, and Strength from the Fallen itself, as well as a couple copies ofWhip of Erebos. You have to juggle the Constellation theme and the dredge theme, and I'm not sure it's worth just losing the Constellation theme entirely and relying on cards like Nemesis of Mortals and Necropolis Fiend for more consistent power. Now, Sultai Ascendancy is a very real boon to such an archetype, but I'm not sure it makes the deck fast enough. Especially not against something like Rabble Red, which can kill faster, more consistently, and also has the ability to disrupt Strength from the Fallen's trigger with burn spells. It's worth looking into, but I think I'd rather stick to a more consistent Sultai Dredge list.
As for the life loss, Nyx-Fleece Ram and Courser of Kruphix do wonders for negating it, and for curbing early aggression in general.
As for 5-color control, my particular list is made to be very good against the aggro and midrange decks I think will be very present these first few weeks. Control is generally not a favorable matchup, and the slower the control deck, the worse we are against it. This can be remedied if the metagame shifts--Boon Satyr and Pharika, God of Affliction are good cards we can look into--but for now, the deck's game against control comes largely out of the sideboard.
Chord of Calling was a great card to run in a Constellation decklist, as it made Eidolon of blossoms appear far more often, and instant speed Doomwake Giant is brutal mid-combat. On first glance I think I prefer the Controlling list I have in the OP, but I'm a control player at heart, so I'm fairly biased. Instant-speed Hornet Queens are a beautiful thing. If you want to play Constellation and be more proactive, I recommend this list. I'll definitely be testing a version of it.
Hey Admiral (and others) - what do you think about Athreos in Chord-toting versions of this deck? Or perhaps just one in the board? He seems like a strong response to attempted Wraths, especially if the opponent's life total has already been somewhat reduced.
Also, for more aggro-control or midrange builds, has anyone been testing Rakshasa Deathdealer to see if it could potentially replace LOLtroll?
And how confident are we that Chording in Siege Rhino isn't just the best thing to be doing in our colors? I'm worried that there is a risk that we are trying to be too cute and not actually just play the best cards available to us. The Rhino seems pretty Thragtusk-y to me...
I've been trying to brew Abzan control (well, a ton of control decks, since I've endeavored to play Control this year no matter what), and it wound up becoming Abzan "Constellation" in a way, after slowly realizing that the only good drawing engine Abzan has is Eidolon of Blossoms. I've been leaning more towards this wedge for control lately since I feel like Sultai Control isn't moving in an interesting direction, and Jeskai Control - while fun as hell - is just awful early game.
The goal, of course, is to stall into a sweep or stall into a finisher, like most control decks. We're well-suited to do this; since we have large creatures in green in our early plays, we can mitigate a lot of damage. Courser can help us get through our deck faster and gain life, while Sylvan Caryatid is just brilliant in any wedge control deck, due to its mana-fixing. Another added bonus: if you're running a wedge control with Caryatid, all your five mana sweeps are suddenly four-mana sweeps again.
From there, the goal is to get to five mana with at least two white (either by plains or with Caryatid) so that you can sweep at any time. This is easy to do with your stalling and life-gain. It's also made easier because the odds of you hitting five mana without the ability to generate two white mana is extremely low, so it doesn't matter what second land you are splashing in your opening hand, as long as one of them is green. You have access to good removal/stalls no matter what.
The deck obviously relies on Eidolon of Blossoms to move through your library at light speeds. Almost every permanent in the deck is an Enchantment, and I've even included Pharika, to get more consistent access to card draws. The chump blockers can also be an excellent deterrent, and in general, it's just easy to turn Pharika into a creature. Athreos is a little nice, because you can worry a little less about losing your creatures to combat tricks. Now, even if your Courser or Caryatid is taken out, it either doesn't set you back much, or it potentially sets them back a lot. I suspect that losing 3 life to counter Athreos's ability will be more punitive in a 3-color standard, where losing life from your lands is going to be more common.
I run a lot of God cards. The way I see it, even if you have a God card in play, if you also have an Eidolon of Blossoms in play, it's basically free card draw. Athreos draws cards and goes back to your hand. Pharika puts Pharika in the graveyard, so you can then exile the Pharika in your graveyard to draw even more cards. Since the deck is likely going to bank on Eidolon drawing cards, the God cards - whether in play, in your hand, or in your library - are never dead cards.
Otherwise, I have a pretty basic removal suite between Banishing Light, Hero's Downfall, Thoughtseize, and End Hostilities. I feel like it's a little light on removal for control, but at the same time, they are some of the most efficient removal/disruption spells in the format, so it works out pretty well.
As for PW Finishers, obviously Elspeth is in, as she's almost undoubtedly the best control finisher in white. I also took Nissa, because when she sticks, games simply end. Garruk is the better control card of the two, but I don't think that it closes games out as fast. I may put Garruk in my sideboard at some point, but I wanted a finisher that was a little more damning than Elspeth.
As for my sideboard, Nyx-Fleece Ram and Drown in Sorrow are obvious inclusions against aggro matchups. Suspension Field is a good choice against Midrange decks, or any deck running a big angry monster. Agent of Erebos replaces Tormod's Crypt, since we can trigger the Constellation effect very easily. Finally, Stain the Mind is just money against any grindier match. Once you have an idea of how they intend to win the match, you can sideboard in Stain the Mind and just get rid of it.
Cards I ultimately didn't take:
- Abzan Charm: The third mode is extremely fringe, the card draw is unnecessary and even bad when pitted against Eidolon, and the removal is just too conditional.
- Urborg: I just haven't found it necessary yet. My deck doesn't run enough black that I need the fixing, and I definitely don't want to provide it to another deck that needs it more than I do.
- Brain Maggot: It's nice to have a soft-discard effect that triggers Constellation, but Brain Maggot is going to be most effective as an early play (i.e likely before Eidolon is out), it's slower than Thoughtseize, it's very plausible that your opponent can get the card back, and in aggro matchups, it's a liability because it gets killed by Drown in Sorrow. Eidolon is the only creature that gets hit by that in the entire deck right now, and I'd greatly prefer to keep it that way.
- Doomwake Giant: It's an awesome creature, but I feel like I'm better-served by my PW finishers, and I feel like the card is pretty lackluster against decks with big, angry creatures.
- Extinguish All Hope: It's a fantastic card, actually. I just made a personal choice to play a quicker sweep. I figure that if I'm running Athreos, I can also afford to be a bit reckless with my sweeps. Besides that, this deck is pretty good at stabilizing with its creatures. Still, I might ultimately grab this one over End Hostilities. I'll see how it plays out, first.
Hey Admiral (and others) - what do you think about Athreos in Chord-toting versions of this deck? Or perhaps just one in the board? He seems like a strong response to attempted Wraths, especially if the opponent's life total has already been somewhat reduced.
Also, for more aggro-control or midrange builds, has anyone been testing Rakshasa Deathdealer to see if it could potentially replace LOLtroll?
And how confident are we that Chording in Siege Rhino isn't just the best thing to be doing in our colors? I'm worried that there is a risk that we are trying to be too cute and not actually just play the best cards available to us. The Rhino seems pretty Thragtusk-y to me...
Siege Rhino is a very powerful card, but I'm pretty confident that Eidolon of Blossoms is comparable in power if only because Eidolon doesn't actually have any competition in terms of being a draw engine. If you're the kind of deck that doesn't benefit from a draw engine, then Siege Rhino is stronger, but the metagame seems to be shaping up to be a huge midrange fest, and card draw can be an edge that this deck has over every other one in standard. Especially when we have cantripping removal. Siege Rhino is the most obvious thing to be doing in our colors, but going Constellation offers tangible benefits that normal Abzan Midrange decks not only can't offer, but have no way to replicate. Eidolon of Blossoms is the best draw engine in standard, and Doomwake Giant singlehandedly shuts down Goblin Rabblemaster and aggro decks in general, murders Elspeth tokens and can force her to -4, and slaughters Hornet Queen tokens. Courser of Kruphix and Banishing Light are also at their best in our decks because they can have additional effects.
Now, as for Athreos, God of Passage, I'll be frank--I don't like the card in Constellation decks. We can very rarely turn him into a creature, and we can't pressure the opponent enough for the 3 life to matter. He's only good in the extreme late game, when the life loss can finally start to matter, but if this deck has reached the extreme late game, it should be doing a pretty good job of winning anyways, or even Athreos can't save us. In a standard where our opponents will be slinging Siege Rhinos and Courser of Kruphixes, or swinging in with Butcher of the Horde or Seeker of the Way, I don't want to rely on life loss as a means of threatening our opponents into giving us CA.
I've been trying to brew Abzan control (well, a ton of control decks, since I've endeavored to play Control this year no matter what), and it wound up becoming Abzan "Constellation" in a way, after slowly realizing that the only good drawing engine Abzan has is Eidolon of Blossoms. I've been leaning more towards this wedge for control lately since I feel like Sultai Control isn't moving in an interesting direction, and Jeskai Control - while fun as hell - is just awful early game.
The goal, of course, is to stall into a sweep or stall into a finisher, like most control decks. We're well-suited to do this; since we have large creatures in green in our early plays, we can mitigate a lot of damage. Courser can help us get through our deck faster and gain life, while Sylvan Caryatid is just brilliant in any wedge control deck, due to its mana-fixing. Another added bonus: if you're running a wedge control with Caryatid, all your five mana sweeps are suddenly four-mana sweeps again.
From there, the goal is to get to five mana with at least two white (either by plains or with Caryatid) so that you can sweep at any time. This is easy to do with your stalling and life-gain. It's also made easier because the odds of you hitting five mana without the ability to generate two white mana is extremely low, so it doesn't matter what second land you are splashing in your opening hand, as long as one of them is green. You have access to good removal/stalls no matter what.
The deck obviously relies on Eidolon of Blossoms to move through your library at light speeds. Almost every permanent in the deck is an Enchantment, and I've even included Pharika, to get more consistent access to card draws. The chump blockers can also be an excellent deterrent, and in general, it's just easy to turn Pharika into a creature. Athreos is a little nice, because you can worry a little less about losing your creatures to combat tricks. Now, even if your Courser or Caryatid is taken out, it either doesn't set you back much, or it potentially sets them back a lot. I suspect that losing 3 life to counter Athreos's ability will be more punitive in a 3-color standard, where losing life from your lands is going to be more common.
I run a lot of God cards. The way I see it, even if you have a God card in play, if you also have an Eidolon of Blossoms in play, it's basically free card draw. Athreos draws cards and goes back to your hand. Pharika puts Pharika in the graveyard, so you can then exile the Pharika in your graveyard to draw even more cards. Since the deck is likely going to bank on Eidolon drawing cards, the God cards - whether in play, in your hand, or in your library - are never dead cards.
Otherwise, I have a pretty basic removal suite between Banishing Light, Hero's Downfall, Thoughtseize, and End Hostilities. I feel like it's a little light on removal for control, but at the same time, they are some of the most efficient removal/disruption spells in the format, so it works out pretty well.
As for PW Finishers, obviously Elspeth is in, as she's almost undoubtedly the best control finisher in white. I also took Nissa, because when she sticks, games simply end. Garruk is the better control card of the two, but I don't think that it closes games out as fast. I may put Garruk in my sideboard at some point, but I wanted a finisher that was a little more damning than Elspeth.
As for my sideboard, Nyx-Fleece Ram and Drown in Sorrow are obvious inclusions against aggro matchups. Suspension Field is a good choice against Midrange decks, or any deck running a big angry monster. Agent of Erebos replaces Tormod's Crypt, since we can trigger the Constellation effect very easily. Finally, Stain the Mind is just money against any grindier match. Once you have an idea of how they intend to win the match, you can sideboard in Stain the Mind and just get rid of it.
Cards I ultimately didn't take:
- Abzan Charm: The third mode is extremely fringe, the card draw is unnecessary and even bad when pitted against Eidolon, and the removal is just too conditional.
- Urborg: I just haven't found it necessary yet. My deck doesn't run enough black that I need the fixing, and I definitely don't want to provide it to another deck that needs it more than I do.
- Brain Maggot: It's nice to have a soft-discard effect that triggers Constellation, but Brain Maggot is going to be most effective as an early play (i.e likely before Eidolon is out), it's slower than Thoughtseize, it's very plausible that your opponent can get the card back, and in aggro matchups, it's a liability because it gets killed by Drown in Sorrow. Eidolon is the only creature that gets hit by that in the entire deck right now, and I'd greatly prefer to keep it that way.
- Doomwake Giant: It's an awesome creature, but I feel like I'm better-served by my PW finishers, and I feel like the card is pretty lackluster against decks with big, angry creatures.
- Extinguish All Hope: It's a fantastic card, actually. I just made a personal choice to play a quicker sweep. I figure that if I'm running Athreos, I can also afford to be a bit reckless with my sweeps. Besides that, this deck is pretty good at stabilizing with its creatures. Still, I might ultimately grab this one over End Hostilities. I'll see how it plays out, first.
This is an interesting build, and I'll admit, I never really tried a version like this. Some thoughts:
*Turning on devotion for your gods might be somehwat difficult, especially for Athreos. Are the gods worth running just as nechantments that provide their effects? You only have 12 non-god creatures, so I could see having difficulty reliably getting early use out of Pharika. Athreos is best suited to exist in an aggressive deck, where the 3 life payment is a very serious cost. If you're not pressuring the opponent much, they'll just pay the 3 life nonchalantly and continue attacking you.
*I don't really care for Nissa, Worldwaker in Constellation lists in this metagame. Last time around, she could wreak havoc on the control decks and devotion decks, as if they couldn't answer her immediately, she buried the opponent in an avalanche of threats. Now, however, with the shift to midrange, her tokens get walled or matched by the opponent's creatures more often, and Hero's Downfall, Utter End, and Banishing Light are everywhere as well. She's still good in a deck that fields a lot of threats and she's just another one, but in a deck that needs her to be the finisher, I'm not so enthusiastic about her abilities. Elspeth is better on defense and provides a similar level of inevitability.
The deck is definitely interesting, though, and a unique take on the Constellation archetype.
Play Junk Constellation at WNM last night, went 2-1-1, should have gone 4-0 but a couple of misplays and inexperience with the deck proved costly.
Learnt a few things about where I want to go and what cards where both worse and better than I thought they would be.
Nyx-Fleece Ram Vs Brain maggot: Sheep won hands down, I made a last switch to it and moved the Maggots to the board, this was the correct choice Ram was an all star, all night.
I ran 23 lands, I think this was too few and I have added an extra land, I lost a game to CiPT which was frustrating so I'm not sure if actually pain lands might just be better than Sandsteppe Citadel.
Grim Guardian was better than expected, I was playing out of Stubbornness because this is a Constellation deck Bob darn it! But actually it was really good and I was never upset to see it, it gave the mono red deck kittens because of the high toughness and won me the control match basically on it's own.
Abzan Ascendancy seemed to scare everyone silly, omg the hate this card pulled, seemingly without actually doing a great deal. Tine will tell if this is a 2 of or 4 of Vs Whip of Erebos in those 4 slots.
Yeah, 23 lands definitely seems risky, but 24 is still a number I'm uneasy with in three-color builds, especially if you're not running Sylvan Caryatid or other mana acceleration. It can work with Mardu Midrange as they're running a very fast build that tops out their curve, often, at 5, and they can afford to just stock up on painlands, but we're not really that. Three-color decks can just straight up lose to their manabases enough that I think 25 land is just a solid base line to start with, especially when you want to be hitting Elspeths regularly.
Your build is definitely closer to a normal midrange deck than the list in the OP. Is Whip of Erebos worth it in this kind of a deck? It's an all-star in the Abzan Reanimator lists, where you're whipping back Siege Rhinos, Hornet Queens, and other huge threats with significant ETB abilities, but Constellation decks are more concerned with smaller, incremental effects and bodies. The lifegain isn't completely irrelevant, but our creatures are small enough that it'll never provide huge swings unless you're attacking with a Doomwake Giant or a bunch of Elspeth tokens, and you have to dump a lot of mana into this to start getting uses out of it. Getting back an enchantment when you have an Eidolon of Blossoms out makes whipping something back worth the mana investment, but even in that situation, Eidolon of Blossoms being on the field means you're in a great position. I personally think I'd prefer something with more immediate effect, as it's not going to help you against the midrange decks that are forcing their way past you.
I haven't really tested out Abzan Ascendancy. Were the 1/1 tokens good as a way to stall? The ETB ability seems fairly irrelevant to us, so I'd imagine the value of the card is in the second ability.
I'm not sure Grim Guardian is in a great place right now. Everyone is building their decks to be able to go over Courser of Kruphix, and Grim Guardian is going to take a lot of splash damage because of that. Nyx-Fleece Ram is attractive because it has 5 toughness, which can block Siege Rhino, Savage Knuckleblade unpumped, Anafenza, monstrous Fleecemane Lion, and Nissa tokens, but non-Courser walls that have 4 toughness are in something of a bad way right now. Especially if they can't threaten to trade with Goblin Rabblemaster. While incremental life loss is tempting, I think you'd be better served by just running some more removal. If you go up a Banishing Light and put in some Suspension Fields, you could even keep your enchantment count the same. If the Guardian could force 'walkers to lose counters, I might be more of a fan, but as is, I think he'll be underwhelming. He'll certainly funciton, but I think there are better cards to be running.
A note on Brain Maggot--Brain Maggot shouldn't really be thought of as a straightforward discard spell, because it isn't one. Brain Maggot exists to absorb removal, whether it be by taking it directly or forcing the opponent to spend a removal spell on Brain Maggot to get the card it took back. Unless it gets swept away or you're forced to block with it, Brain Maggot is almost always a 1-for-1. If they have to spend a card to get rid of Brain Maggot, it still forced them to discard a card--by using it on the Maggot. They get their card back, but they're still down a card mana, and time, and if you got a cantrip off of the Brain Maggot, you're even further ahead on CA. And there will be removal-light decks that just never kill the Brain Maggot, and then it was a discard spell. Brain Maggot isn't there to get rid of a threat permanently, you just want to do it temporarily and force your opponent to commit a removal spell to try and get back their curve while also interrupting their tempo. And if your opponent spends a Hero's Downfall on Brain Maggot, that's a removal spell they can't spend on Eidolon of Blossoms. It's solid against every deck type, as even against aggro, if you take their next turn's play and they're forced to kill it to get it back, you slowed them down and made them "discard" a card. I've won games against aggro because I spent my second turn taking away their Goblin Rabblemaster, forcing the aggro player to spend their turn 3 using Magma Jet to kill Brain Maggot, and only landing their Goblin Rabblemaster turn 4, when it was too late to stop me. Brain Maggot is also useful as long as the opponent has a hand, and actually gets better later into the game, as it can now cantrip or give everything -1/-1, and it has a bigger chance of stealing a card permanently.
This is an interesting build, and I'll admit, I never really tried a version like this. Some thoughts:
*Turning on devotion for your gods might be somehwat difficult, especially for Athreos. Are the gods worth running just as nechantments that provide their effects? You only have 12 non-god creatures, so I could see having difficulty reliably getting early use out of Pharika. Athreos is best suited to exist in an aggressive deck, where the 3 life payment is a very serious cost. If you're not pressuring the opponent much, they'll just pay the 3 life nonchalantly and continue attacking you.
*I don't really care for Nissa, Worldwaker in Constellation lists in this metagame. Last time around, she could wreak havoc on the control decks and devotion decks, as if they couldn't answer her immediately, she buried the opponent in an avalanche of threats. Now, however, with the shift to midrange, her tokens get walled or matched by the opponent's creatures more often, and Hero's Downfall, Utter End, and Banishing Light are everywhere as well. She's still good in a deck that fields a lot of threats and she's just another one, but in a deck that needs her to be the finisher, I'm not so enthusiastic about her abilities. Elspeth is better on defense and provides a similar level of inevitability.
The deck is definitely interesting, though, and a unique take on the Constellation archetype.
Yeah, I mainly posted the decklist here cos I didn't see any brewing threads with decks that looked anything like mine, yet. Although I don't think of my deck as a Constellation deck per se, it's probably closer to this than anything else.
Pharika gets activated pretty frequently, but it's usually when I've managed to stabilize the board with creatures. Since a lot of my permanents give green devotion, it's not as hard as it might seem. Even then, she's extremely valuable when Eidolon is in play, just because her ability allows me to defend myself while drawing more cards. Athreos, on the other hand, is definitely my newest and more experimental inclusion to the deck. I suspect it will give me an edge against enemy sweeps, but who knows? I need to experiment with it more, first.
As for Nissa, I definitely can agree that she's not an amazing finisher for control. Part of it is that I want to have more than one finisher card (I realize nobody cares about Stain the Mind but me right now, but I do think it'll wind up being a sideboard staple soon enough). Another part is that I'm just not sure what else a good second finisher would be for control. I think Garruk is awfully expensive, and Liliana isn't particularly helpful. The Ajani cards, I feel, would actually be pretty good in this deck...but they don't close out games; they just make it a lot harder to lose. Maybe I need to stop being a sissy and just run Garruk instead. I'm open to suggestions, in any case.
My list is slowly coming together (trying to get 8 polluted delta for both this and modern is a MAJOR pain) but I'm seeing all these Abzan lists, makes me hope that people don't start packing Back to Nature and Erase before I've even completed my list.
Athreos and Grim Haruspex looks pure evil against sweepers, but does it actually do well? I'm split on including Grim Haruspex in my sideboard, and I don't really see when I would side into it except maybe in a control match up.
We're a week away from the Pro Tour, do you think that any constellation lists will be showing up? I do, and I hope it's both Abzan and Sultai lists.
It's possible some might. I have no idea what the ideal Constellation list looks like yet--whether it'll be Abzan, Sultai, or BG like the Green Devotion lists that ran Eidolon and Doomwake. Grim Haruspex is a card that seems better fitted to running in aggro decks--if a Sultai list wants to protect against sweepers, Negate or Disdainful Stroke will do nicely. Abzan lists have fewer ways to deal with them, but we just don't have to overextend into them.
I was finally able to free up some time to play outside of Cockatrice last night, and I went 4-1. The list I ran mirrors the current list in the OP.
Game 1: RW Aggro (?) 2-0
This was a weird brew--Purphoros and tokens, along with Rabblemaster, Seeker of the Way, and other RW aggro staples. As such, Doomwake Giant massacred him. It really wasn't even a game after I cast him. He'd spent his burn on my earlier creatures, so he couldn't do enough damage to Doomwake Giant to ever get rid of him. I got two triggers, wiped his field, and then proceeded to win. This happened in some way or another both games.
Game 2: Abzan Planeswalkers 2-1
This was essentially Abzan Midrange with a larger contingent of Planeswalkers than normal accompanying the Siege Rhinos and other traditional Abzan spells. Game 1 was a blowout in his favor--he landed a Sorin and an Elspeth that I couldn't answer, killed a Doomwake Giant, and ran over me. Game 2 was a blowout, again, but in my favor---Double Doomwake Giant just proves to be too much for him to handle, and by the time he can Elspeth them away, I have way too much card advantage to lose. Game 3 was a closer game, but Double Doomwake eventually gets it for me, as they can block his Siege Rhinos even when pumped by Sorin, and I eventually cast three enchantments (Brain Maggot, Brain Maggot, Banishing Light) and wipe his entire board.
Game 3: Naya Midrange 1-2
This is a matchup I felt decently about going in, but I knew Stormbreath Dragon was going to be an issue. I lost game 1 because I stalled on three lands after mulliganing, and though I did actually answer Stormbreath Dragon, I just died to two Rabblemasters afterwards, all while staring wistfully at the Doomwake Giant in my hand. I sided out my Nyx-Fleece rams and a couple Abzan Charms, for Silence the Believers and Thoughtseize, and I obliterate him game 2, with Doomwake keeping Rabblemaster under control, and my other removal taking Sarkhans and Stormbreaths out of the sky when necessary. Game 3 goes...less well. He gets the nut draw---turn 1 Mystic into turn 2 Goblin Rabblemaster, into Polukranos, into Stormbreath Dragon, into a second Goblin Rabblemaster. I actually almost stabilized until he cast the second Rabblemaster, putting into play enough tokens that brought my life total below something that Doomwake Giant was going to save me from, but that ended up wrapping up the game for him. I had to mulligan this game as well, so that also didn't help.
Game 4: Mono red aggro 2-0
I'm pretty certain I'm just this deck's nightmare matchup. None of the games are close. He gets very aggressive starts, and though my life dips quickly, Doomwake Giant comes down, wipes most of his board, and instantly stabilizes me. Both games are ended by me landing Doomwake Giant and then coasting to victory.
Game 5: Mardu Control 2-0
This was a matchup I didn't necessarily expect, but I have played it before. I mulligan and take a questionable hand, that gets even more unfortunate as the game went on. I had zero ways to pressure him, but what I DID have was a ridiculous amount of removal. I'm able to kill every single planeswalker he lands to try and close out the game with, and despite my deck trying as hard as it can to not give me anything, I eventually get there, landing an Elspeth after he used a lot of his removal that would hit planeswalkers on Eidolons and Doomwake Giants. I side out Nyx-Fleece Rams and Doomwake Giants, and then take the second game without much trouble.
Overall, despite the deck stumbling versus Naya Midrange, I felt pretty satisfied with the deck's performance. I'm really liking the full playset of Doomwake Giant. He's really good in the current metagame, as every non-control deck has something he can prey on--he wrecks Goblin Rabblemaster, he clears the field of Hornet Queen tokens, and he deals with Elspeth tokens and forces her to -3 to kill him. He also blocks a huge amount of threats profitably. However, if these matches taught me anything, it's that Abzan Charm was underwhelming. It's really disappointing against aggro, and the fact that it can only kill Goblin Rabblemaster when it attacks is very annoying. Missing Rabblemaster AND Stormbreath Dragon is just too much for me, personally. I'm considering dropping it entirely, replacing it with the 2 Silence the Believers from the sideboard and possibly a 25th land. Stormbreath Dragon is a very real danger for this deck, and I think I want at least 6 non-Elspeth ways to kill him. Silence the Believers also hits Sarkhan when he attacks, deals with Bestow when that's relevant, and the strive mode is amazing when games go a bit longer.
Also, the monored matchup is so insanely good, I don't really think I need to run the full 4 Drown in Sorrow. 2 Drown in Sorrow/2 Bile Blight will probably be sufficient, as the combination of Nyx-Fleece Ram, Sylvan Caryatid, Courser of Kruphix, and Doomwake Giant is often just too much for them to deal with.
I'm liking this deck a lot. I don't think I've found the optimal list for it yet, but I think it definitely has a place in the metagame.
Have you considered arbor colossus vs storm breath? It wouldn't trigger constellation but it could wall one flier while killing another with monstrosity. Main downside is not being an enchantment and battling with Doomwake for the slot.
Hate to say it Hamaon, but that list has little to no interaction against opposing board states, as well as being squishy to sweepers.
I've been considering the GU options that are available, and I keep falling back to a BUG list a friend of mine was running last season, mainly superfriends with prophet and Kruphix together to generate absurd amounts of mana. Makes me wanna make my sideboard based around those 2 and villainous wealth as a joke-mill wincon.
I know last standard (what little constellation saw) that it struggled with planeswalkers. Overall, how well did your Abzan list fare against the various walkers once they were on board? Better than last season or worse?
@Hamaon: I did consider Arbor Colossus, but I'm not really worried about fliers so much as I'm worried about Stormbreath in particular. It could still very well be worth considering in the sideboard, but I'd prefer to look at more general answers before moving on to something as specific as the Giant. It does notably block pretty much everything out of Naya Midrange well, so it's definitely worth a look. As for the list you posted, that's very close to what placed at the SCG opens lately. I'm not sure if the devotion threads are already discussing that or not, though. It certainly fits in here, as this is more of a catch-all thread for any Constellation strategy.
@Cloudheadedamigo: Planeswalkers are about as annoying as they are for anyone, but they're not that bad this time around. 4x Hero's Downfall and 4x Banishing Light gives us a huge amount of ways to stike at 'walkers directly, and Doomwake Giant is pretty good at clearing the field of the tokens Walkers are often protecting themselves with.
Doomwake giant, polukranos, arbor colossus and setessan tactics interact with their board. I.e. doomwake vs rabblemaster+rhino+polukranos, arbor vs stormbreath+sarkhan+butcher.
Sweepers are countered with the fact that Eidolon nets card advantage or neutrality at the worst with other creatures, and that the bigger sweepers at 5+mana mean by the time they can wipe the board, we will be able to hardcast our creatures anyway.
I think kruphix has the trouble of not providing any threat or deterrence to the enemy board state, and I'm not sure how often extra mana can be stored up depending on the build. Prophet seems like she could be cool, though you did mention yourself she dies too easily to be useful sometimes, particularly with empty hands
Kruphix actually works a little against delve, actually. Previous standard I found the fastest way to filter our hand was with a pair of Eidolon of Blossoms and end of turn discarding. That's usually when we're the winning boardstate, but still. I was considering it if Back to Nature saw play, as a way to both play a more controlling list while hard casting things like villianous wealth for 40 and empty the pits for 20 zombies (my friends list made it to 200+ mana without a hydra to dump it in, it was hilarious) but it all depends on if I can play it as a more controlling list.
Doomwake giant, polukranos, arbor colossus and setessan tactics interact with their board. I.e. doomwake vs rabblemaster+rhino+polukranos, arbor vs stormbreath+sarkhan+butcher.
Setessan Tactics has a problem of being weak to removal in the same way Polukranos is. If they kill your guy(s) in response, you get nothing. Because Ploukranos is more powerful, he should get the nod and we need to make our deck more resistent to being blown out that way by diversifying our removal. Plus, Doomwake/Poly/Colossus are all super slow. I like them all for thei power levels, but there's definitely such a thing as too many sweepers even if they are also your win condition as well.
I think that this deck wants the following:
1. Cheap, unconditional removal
2. cheap planewalkers as wrath resistance
Sweepers are countered with the fact that Eidolon nets card advantage or neutrality at the worst with other creatures, and that the bigger sweepers at 5+mana mean by the time they can wipe the board, we will be able to hardcast our creatures anyway.
Agreed. I find that ramping into fatties that also count as removal is awesome. Here's my current list:
That's a fairly simple two colour list that is also going to consistently ramp, as well as draw, as well as cast fatties. Nissa is an experimenal addition that could easily be Garruk or a hydra or anything really.
I currently looking for a deck to build for this standard season and since Back to nature isn't a popular sideboard card yet I thought I would try and brew a list. I was very torn between a G/B list or a G/W/B one and was wondering since I assume you all have a lot more practice at this sort of deck would it be better to go G/B or G/W/B. I decided to brew a G/B list as it's just what I'm more comfortable with and was wondering what your thoughts are on this deck as I haven't seen a recent G/B list on the thread. I have a feeling I have a little to much removal and a few to many cards that interact with the graveyard. Thanks.
IMO, abzan is the way to go for control strategies because of banishing light, Elspeth and the ram. However I think the white should only be a splash as the GB base is already pretty strong but just barely lacking in reach [as a controlly deck anyway, devotion would of course stick as mainly green]
I have a grindy B/W constellation deck and im very tempted to go Abzam because of Eidollon of Blossoms and Abzam charm that can help against alot of archtypes.I'm getting ym ass kicked against Mono Green devotion and Big Red decks so the change might help against these archtypes with the card drawing effect of Blossoms since Underworld Connections rotated
I have a grindy B/W constellation deck and im very tempted to go Abzam because of Eidollon of Blossoms and Abzam charm that can help against alot of archtypes.I'm getting ym ass kicked against Mono Green devotion and Big Red decks so the change might help against these archtypes with the card drawing effect of Blossoms since Underworld Connections rotated
I've never really been a fan of the BW versions. Giving up the ability to use Eidolon of Blossoms and Courser of Kruphix for an incredibly grindy playstyle seems pretty weak, when Eidolon of Blossoms does so much to help that kind of playstyle in the first place, and Courser seems way better than Underworld Coinsmith. So yeah, I'd definitely recommend adding green.
I got in a lot of testing against what is an annoying match for us, RGx midrange. I've recently taken out Nyx-Fleece Ram from my maindeck to play 3 Thoughtseize, and they really helped in that matchup. The ability to rip 'walkers, Stormbreath Dragon, Wingmate Roc, and other things that provide instant value out of the opponent's hand is invaluable in a deck like ours. It's bad against the aggro decks, but once the Drown in Sorrows come in from the sideboard, our matchup against Monored really just becomes near-unloseable. Drown in Sorrow, plus all our removal, plus Courser, plus Doomwake makes the matchup incredibly simple, and we really only lose when we draw exceptionally poorly.
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There are quite a few ways to build with Constellation, and this thread looked over many different kinds of decks, but the build that has been doing the best has been the B/G constellation decks that have been top 8-ing recently, relying on a Constellation package and Whip of Erebos to stabilize and generate game-breaking value. Given the recent success of these builds, I've changed the first post to reflect the deck that's currently doing the best, though other Constellation archetypes are certainly open for discussion here.
Here is a fairly representative list that took 3rd at a recent SCG open:
4 Elvish Mystic
3 Hornet Queen
4 Satyr Wayfinder
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Doomwake Giant
4 Eidolon of Blossoms
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
Enchantments
3 Whip of Erebos
4 Commune with the Gods
4 Murderous Cut
Land
6 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Temple of Malady
3 Windswept Heath
2 Nyxthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Arbor Colossus
1 Doomwake Giant
3 Nissa, Worldwaker
4 Thoughtseize
2 Bile Blight
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
There is some variation between lists, but this is a good representation of the core of the deck.
This archetype is consistent, resilient, and capable of some truly insane plays with Whip of Erebos and Hornet Queen or multiple Constellation creatures. The deck is not without its downsides, as we have a truly horrible game 1 matchup to Jeskai Ascendancy Combo, and Control isn't a very good matchup, but these are fixable out of the sideboard, and we have solid matchups everywhere else.
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Brain Maggot
2 Satyr Wayfinder
2 Pharika, God of Affliction
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Eidolon of Blossoms
2 Doomwake Giant
2 Necropolis Fiend
2 Sultai Ascendancy
2 Murderous Cut
2 Hero's Downfall
1 Dig Through Time
2 Sultai Charm
1 Nissa, Worldwaker
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
5 Forest
3 Swamp
3 Island
3 Polluted Delta
4 Temple of Malady
2 Temple of Deceit
2 Llanowar Wastes
1 Opulent Palace
2 Doomwake Giant
2 Hero's Downfall
1 Drown in Sorrow
3 Disdainful Stroke
1 Nissa, Worldwaker
4 Thoughtseize
Sideboard is in flux as usual -- trying out a thing where game 1 is about walling with creatures and killing with planeswalkers, and subsequent games use knowledge of the opponent's deck to shred them up in lieu of some delve power.
This version essentially seeks to wall the enemy with large bodies and/or deathtouch tokens, maintaining card advantage while it digs for both answers and threats of its own.
Going into blue essentially enables Kiora and Sultai Ascendancy as well as some sideboard tech later on. The majority of this deck is GB, however.
The self-mill allows for Pharika to more effectively wall off enemies, and her snakes create more constellation triggers in turn. Delve is great earlygame after even one Wayfinder, though lategame you'll find you only need to exile 1 or 2 cards with the amount of land drops you'll be hitting.
Your list looks really streamlined and clean, and I would also favor going the control route as you've done. Constellation does have a "glacial slowness" as you so aptly described, but once it gets rolling it's really a house. I've messed around with different cards like spiteful returned, boon satyr and herald of torment, but I'm in agreement that the sheep and the maggot are where we want to be at the 2 spot, and being too clogged at the 3 is really bad. Another random thought - a lot of people don't understand how powerful extinguish all hope can be. Overall I really like the positioning of the deck going into new standard. Our main fears are hard control, as you mentioned, and then a single card in back to nature. Luckily I think we can play around it with brain maggot and thoughtseize out of the board.
I wish I had more to contribute right now, but the above list looks super thorough as a starting point. I'll be sure to refer back to this thread for updates, in addition to adding any suggestions I have after testing with it. Cheers!
7 Forests
3 Island
3 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
1 Opulent Palaces
2 Llanowar Wastes
2 Yavimaya Coast
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Creatures
3 Sylvan Carytid
3 Brain Maggot
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Eidolon of Blossoms
2 Prophet of Kruphix
1 Riptide Chimera
1 Arbiter of the Ideal
2 Tiagam’s Scheming
3 Disdainful Stroke
2 Negate
2 Hero’s Downfall
2 Sultai Charm
4 Thoughtseize
3 Sultai Ascendency
2 Murderous Cut
2 Doomwake Giants
4 Despise
2 Villainous Wealth
2 Hero’s Downfall
1 Necropolis Fiend
2 Dig Through Time
2 Dead Drop
2 Grim Haruspex
1. Rabble Red: A solid choice last standard that remains strong now, I expect Rabble Red to be a force in the metagame, taking advantage of the 3-color decks' relative slowness. and though we're slow, we're *very* good at stalling. The name of the game is, essentially, stalling until we can cast an Elspeth or Extinguish All Hope, and just take the game from that point on. Nyx-Fleece Ram is at it's absolute best here. We also have plenty of removal for Goblin Rabblemaster itself, though Abzan Charm does require him to be attacking. Brain Maggot also notably takes him away the turn before he comes down, and I've passed on playing Nyx-Fleece Ram Turn 2 just to stop Goblin Rabblemaster in removal-light hands. This matchup, I would say, is about even pre-sideboard, as though the deck is capable of some ridiculous draws, if we can go Nyx-Fleece Ram into Courser of Kruphix, the game is basically over. If we have removal at the right time, we can stabilize. If we don't kill Goblin Rabblemaster, it can completely overwhelm us. After sideboarding, the matchup goes from being decent to amazing, as we can profitably run 4 Drown in Sorrow, and Doomwake Giant is an absolute nightmare for that deck, as it slaughters a lot of it's creatures just by making an appearance, is out of burn range without help, and it acts as a repeatable sweeper. I side out Eidolon of Blossoms here, as we don't really need more cards to outlast monored, and Extinguish All Hope, because Doomwake Giant does a lot of the same job and is faster.
2. Mardu Aggro/Midrange: A slower aggro deck/faster midrange deck that uses Sarkhan, Dragonspeaker and Butcher of the Horde as it's top of the curve, this is an even better matchup than Rabble Red. Nyx-Fleece Ram isn't super relevant here, as it blocks fewer things, but it still pads our life, and our removal is way more live against this deck. Baiting the oppponent into sacrificing a creature with Butcher of the Horde before Abzan Charming it is delightful, and my deck has 10 maindeck ways to solve the Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker problem. These decks usually run Goblin Rabblemaster as well, but he's not as threatening in this archetype. I sideboard less against this archetype, as Eidolon of Blossoms is largely fine and Extinguish All Hope is better. I do run two Silence the Believers in my sideboard, so those come in.
3. Abzan Midrange: Though this deck shares our colors and classification, we are very different decks. This isn't really a matchup I'm worried about. Nyx-Fleece Ram blocks the majority of their threats, they're slow enough that our removal can easily keep pace with them, and Eidolon of Blossoms is fantastic here. Not that the matchup is unloseable by any means---if they drop an Elspeth and we can't deal with it, we're still going to lose. But I've won the majority of my games against it, as Extinguish All Hope is such a ridiculous card in midrange mirrors. I've gone from being dead on board to having an unassailable board position just by simply casting this card. People often don't expect to have to worry about overextending against a deck like this, and Extinguish All Hope punishes them severely for attempting to.
4. Temur Midrange/RG Monsters: I'm lumping these two decks together because the strengths and weaknesses I have against them are largely the same. They're fast, but their creatures are all susceptible to our removal, and Extinguish All Hope ruins them. Eidolon of Blossoms is fantastic in midrange matchups, as she just keeps the removal flowing. Planeswalkers are a little annoying for this deck, as we usually are going to have to kill them directly with a Banishing Light or a Hero's Downfall, but they're managable. Especially once Elspeth joins the party. This matchup is notable, however, because one of this deck's most annoying foes makes an appearance---Stormbreath Dragon. 7 out of my available 10 removal spells miss him, and if I don't have a Downfall ready or an Elspeth/Extinguish All Hope ready to follow him next turn, he can completely steal away a game from us. Silence the Believers is a breath of fresh air in this matchup, and I take out Nyx-Fleece Ram for it because it's less relevant in this matchup, as things are flying over it or Polukranos is just crashing through it. It's perfectly servicable game 1, but I don't need the full playset in the other games.
5. BUG control: A popular choice before the rotation, this is one of our stranger matchups. We have a weakness to control decks, but we can still make it incredibly difficult for them to actually win, as Banishing Light and Hero's Downfall curb planeswalker problems. This matchup is ridiculously draw-dependent. If you draw a bunch of Nyx-Fleece Rams, you're basically doomed, but Brain Maggots, Abzan Charm, Downfalls, and Eidolon can lead you to victory. After sideboarding, this matchup becomes more more palatable, as you don't have to deal with topdecking a Nyx-Fleece Ram and just having a dead card anymore. I've been trying out Empty the Pits as a finisher against control decks, as we're so ridiculously slow that we might as well just accept that and play a finisher that accompanies such a strategy. Brain Maggot and Thoughtseize clear the way for it, and then we can just take a game in a couple combat steps, if we even need that many. I haven't decided whether or not it's correct to leave in Extinguish All Hope. It's largely a dead card, except for the fact that it kills Prognostic Sphinx, which we otherwise cannot answer. This, and other control decks, will easily be our most unfavorable matchups, and if control is very popular/dominant in your metagame, Abzan Constellation probably isn't the correct choice, though Sultai Constellation very well could be, with it's ability to run counterspells.
6. Sultai Dredge: This is a strange matchup. Empty the Pits is a great card against us, but the shell of a deck it's in isn't. So most of this matchup is just trying to play around Empty the Pits. Sidisi doesn't threaten us much, as we can remove her in several different ways, but Empty the Pits REALLY threatens us. My solution to this matchup has usually been using Brain Maggot to force out an Empty the Pits early, and then dealing with it. As such, I generally save Brain Maggot for later in the game, and try and cast it the same turn I'd be able to cast an Elspeth or an Extinguish All Hope, so that I have game against the zombies should they appear. After sideboarding, this matchup gets better, as I run Stain the Mind and Thoughtseize out of the board, both excellent ways to keep tabs on Empty the Pits. If we can Stain the Mind an Empty the Pits, we can almost take this game at our leisure.
7. URx Affinity: I mention this deck not necessarily because I think it's good, but because it is one I've played multiple times on Cockatrice, so I figure it bears mention. This deck tries to win by using Shrapnel Blast and Ensoul Artifact, along with Chief Engineer, so deliver lots of damage, curving out with Scuttling Doom Engine. This deck is such a nonissue for this archetype that it's almost amusing. We run 7 maindeck exiling effects, so Scuttling Doom Engine doesn't necessarily have the inevitability it has against other decks, and an animated Darksteel Citadel will often eat a Nyx-Fleece Ram and then find it's Ensoul Artifact trapped by a Banishing Light, or even better, be obliterated entirely by an Abzan Charm doing it's best Vindicate impression.
Those are the decks I've been running across the most, and I've found that our matchups across the board are pretty good, with notable weaknesses to Control and Empty the Pits-based decks Game 1. We also, notably, have a weakness to Back to Nature, but it's not clear if that's a card we really even have to worry about. Back to Nature isn't a good Enchantment removal card, because it can't get rid of Gods, and it can also kill your own Enchantments (Coursers), so it's subpar as a sideboard card unless you're specifically siding it in against Constellation decks, against which it is obviously very good. It eats up slots in the sideboard, though, and if a deck wants to run enchantment removal, they'll be faced with the choice of whether or not to just run Deicide/Erase/Unravel the Aether and have a way to deal with gods that doesn't hurt them and still is good against Constellation, or run a card that is ONLY good against Constellation, and then either a)Not have a way to remove enchantments or b)take up even more slots in their sideboard to be able to do both, worsening their other matchups by reducing available sideboard space. If a Constellation deck is ever dominant, then Back to Nature is definitely a good choice, but outside of that scenario I'm not sure it'll ever be worth running. It also doesn't completely secure a win against us, as Brain Maggot and Thoughtseize can still pluck it out if their hand, Stain the Mind can get rid of it entirely, and even if it does resolve, we have enough removal to hang in there until we can come back from that. And as good as Back to Nature is against this deck, it doesn't stop our actual win condition, Elspeth. So if we've dropped Elspeth, Back to Nature can come in and do all it wants, Elspeth still is capable of just taking over the game. It also doesn't help that if we got out an Eidolon and started cantripping, even if Back to Nature kills our board progress, we still drew a card for most of the enchantments it destroyed anyway, so while it's crippling, it's not a completely awful trade.
I notice you are running the tap trilands... how are those working out for you? With only four taplands I would be tempted to do a 2/2 split of the common lifegainers, just to try to counteract some of the life loss from the fetches and wastes. Or do the MD Rams and Courser-fetch combo make this less of an issue than it appears?
Have to say, these wedge trilands are giving me a great nostalgic feel for Shards block. Really hoping 5-color control makes a resurgence. If it does, do you see Abzan Constellation as having game against it?
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
As for the life loss, Nyx-Fleece Ram and Courser of Kruphix do wonders for negating it, and for curbing early aggression in general.
As for 5-color control, my particular list is made to be very good against the aggro and midrange decks I think will be very present these first few weeks. Control is generally not a favorable matchup, and the slower the control deck, the worse we are against it. This can be remedied if the metagame shifts--Boon Satyr and Pharika, God of Affliction are good cards we can look into--but for now, the deck's game against control comes largely out of the sideboard.
Chord of Calling was a great card to run in a Constellation decklist, as it made Eidolon of blossoms appear far more often, and instant speed Doomwake Giant is brutal mid-combat. On first glance I think I prefer the Controlling list I have in the OP, but I'm a control player at heart, so I'm fairly biased. Instant-speed Hornet Queens are a beautiful thing. If you want to play Constellation and be more proactive, I recommend this list. I'll definitely be testing a version of it.
Also, for more aggro-control or midrange builds, has anyone been testing Rakshasa Deathdealer to see if it could potentially replace LOLtroll?
And how confident are we that Chording in Siege Rhino isn't just the best thing to be doing in our colors? I'm worried that there is a risk that we are trying to be too cute and not actually just play the best cards available to us. The Rhino seems pretty Thragtusk-y to me...
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
Here's what I've currently got:
4 Temple of Plenty
4 Temple of Malady
3 Temple of Silence
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
3 Plains
2 Caves of Koilos
2 Llanowar Wastes
Creatures
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Eidolon of Blossoms
3 Pharika, God of Affliction
2 Athreos, God of Passage
4 Banishing Light
Planeswalkers
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Nissa, Worldwaker
Instants/Sorceries
4 Hero's Downfall
4 End Hostilities
3 Thoughtseize
4 Nyx-Fleece Ram
4 Suspension Field
3 Drown in Sorrow
2 Agent of Erebos
2 Stain the Mind
The goal, of course, is to stall into a sweep or stall into a finisher, like most control decks. We're well-suited to do this; since we have large creatures in green in our early plays, we can mitigate a lot of damage. Courser can help us get through our deck faster and gain life, while Sylvan Caryatid is just brilliant in any wedge control deck, due to its mana-fixing. Another added bonus: if you're running a wedge control with Caryatid, all your five mana sweeps are suddenly four-mana sweeps again.
From there, the goal is to get to five mana with at least two white (either by plains or with Caryatid) so that you can sweep at any time. This is easy to do with your stalling and life-gain. It's also made easier because the odds of you hitting five mana without the ability to generate two white mana is extremely low, so it doesn't matter what second land you are splashing in your opening hand, as long as one of them is green. You have access to good removal/stalls no matter what.
The deck obviously relies on Eidolon of Blossoms to move through your library at light speeds. Almost every permanent in the deck is an Enchantment, and I've even included Pharika, to get more consistent access to card draws. The chump blockers can also be an excellent deterrent, and in general, it's just easy to turn Pharika into a creature. Athreos is a little nice, because you can worry a little less about losing your creatures to combat tricks. Now, even if your Courser or Caryatid is taken out, it either doesn't set you back much, or it potentially sets them back a lot. I suspect that losing 3 life to counter Athreos's ability will be more punitive in a 3-color standard, where losing life from your lands is going to be more common.
I run a lot of God cards. The way I see it, even if you have a God card in play, if you also have an Eidolon of Blossoms in play, it's basically free card draw. Athreos draws cards and goes back to your hand. Pharika puts Pharika in the graveyard, so you can then exile the Pharika in your graveyard to draw even more cards. Since the deck is likely going to bank on Eidolon drawing cards, the God cards - whether in play, in your hand, or in your library - are never dead cards.
Otherwise, I have a pretty basic removal suite between Banishing Light, Hero's Downfall, Thoughtseize, and End Hostilities. I feel like it's a little light on removal for control, but at the same time, they are some of the most efficient removal/disruption spells in the format, so it works out pretty well.
As for PW Finishers, obviously Elspeth is in, as she's almost undoubtedly the best control finisher in white. I also took Nissa, because when she sticks, games simply end. Garruk is the better control card of the two, but I don't think that it closes games out as fast. I may put Garruk in my sideboard at some point, but I wanted a finisher that was a little more damning than Elspeth.
As for my sideboard, Nyx-Fleece Ram and Drown in Sorrow are obvious inclusions against aggro matchups. Suspension Field is a good choice against Midrange decks, or any deck running a big angry monster. Agent of Erebos replaces Tormod's Crypt, since we can trigger the Constellation effect very easily. Finally, Stain the Mind is just money against any grindier match. Once you have an idea of how they intend to win the match, you can sideboard in Stain the Mind and just get rid of it.
Cards I ultimately didn't take:
- Abzan Charm: The third mode is extremely fringe, the card draw is unnecessary and even bad when pitted against Eidolon, and the removal is just too conditional.
- Urborg: I just haven't found it necessary yet. My deck doesn't run enough black that I need the fixing, and I definitely don't want to provide it to another deck that needs it more than I do.
- Brain Maggot: It's nice to have a soft-discard effect that triggers Constellation, but Brain Maggot is going to be most effective as an early play (i.e likely before Eidolon is out), it's slower than Thoughtseize, it's very plausible that your opponent can get the card back, and in aggro matchups, it's a liability because it gets killed by Drown in Sorrow. Eidolon is the only creature that gets hit by that in the entire deck right now, and I'd greatly prefer to keep it that way.
- Doomwake Giant: It's an awesome creature, but I feel like I'm better-served by my PW finishers, and I feel like the card is pretty lackluster against decks with big, angry creatures.
- Extinguish All Hope: It's a fantastic card, actually. I just made a personal choice to play a quicker sweep. I figure that if I'm running Athreos, I can also afford to be a bit reckless with my sweeps. Besides that, this deck is pretty good at stabilizing with its creatures. Still, I might ultimately grab this one over End Hostilities. I'll see how it plays out, first.
Siege Rhino is a very powerful card, but I'm pretty confident that Eidolon of Blossoms is comparable in power if only because Eidolon doesn't actually have any competition in terms of being a draw engine. If you're the kind of deck that doesn't benefit from a draw engine, then Siege Rhino is stronger, but the metagame seems to be shaping up to be a huge midrange fest, and card draw can be an edge that this deck has over every other one in standard. Especially when we have cantripping removal. Siege Rhino is the most obvious thing to be doing in our colors, but going Constellation offers tangible benefits that normal Abzan Midrange decks not only can't offer, but have no way to replicate. Eidolon of Blossoms is the best draw engine in standard, and Doomwake Giant singlehandedly shuts down Goblin Rabblemaster and aggro decks in general, murders Elspeth tokens and can force her to -4, and slaughters Hornet Queen tokens. Courser of Kruphix and Banishing Light are also at their best in our decks because they can have additional effects.
Now, as for Athreos, God of Passage, I'll be frank--I don't like the card in Constellation decks. We can very rarely turn him into a creature, and we can't pressure the opponent enough for the 3 life to matter. He's only good in the extreme late game, when the life loss can finally start to matter, but if this deck has reached the extreme late game, it should be doing a pretty good job of winning anyways, or even Athreos can't save us. In a standard where our opponents will be slinging Siege Rhinos and Courser of Kruphixes, or swinging in with Butcher of the Horde or Seeker of the Way, I don't want to rely on life loss as a means of threatening our opponents into giving us CA.
This is an interesting build, and I'll admit, I never really tried a version like this. Some thoughts:
*Turning on devotion for your gods might be somehwat difficult, especially for Athreos. Are the gods worth running just as nechantments that provide their effects? You only have 12 non-god creatures, so I could see having difficulty reliably getting early use out of Pharika. Athreos is best suited to exist in an aggressive deck, where the 3 life payment is a very serious cost. If you're not pressuring the opponent much, they'll just pay the 3 life nonchalantly and continue attacking you.
*I don't really care for Nissa, Worldwaker in Constellation lists in this metagame. Last time around, she could wreak havoc on the control decks and devotion decks, as if they couldn't answer her immediately, she buried the opponent in an avalanche of threats. Now, however, with the shift to midrange, her tokens get walled or matched by the opponent's creatures more often, and Hero's Downfall, Utter End, and Banishing Light are everywhere as well. She's still good in a deck that fields a lot of threats and she's just another one, but in a deck that needs her to be the finisher, I'm not so enthusiastic about her abilities. Elspeth is better on defense and provides a similar level of inevitability.
The deck is definitely interesting, though, and a unique take on the Constellation archetype.
Yeah, 23 lands definitely seems risky, but 24 is still a number I'm uneasy with in three-color builds, especially if you're not running Sylvan Caryatid or other mana acceleration. It can work with Mardu Midrange as they're running a very fast build that tops out their curve, often, at 5, and they can afford to just stock up on painlands, but we're not really that. Three-color decks can just straight up lose to their manabases enough that I think 25 land is just a solid base line to start with, especially when you want to be hitting Elspeths regularly.
Your build is definitely closer to a normal midrange deck than the list in the OP. Is Whip of Erebos worth it in this kind of a deck? It's an all-star in the Abzan Reanimator lists, where you're whipping back Siege Rhinos, Hornet Queens, and other huge threats with significant ETB abilities, but Constellation decks are more concerned with smaller, incremental effects and bodies. The lifegain isn't completely irrelevant, but our creatures are small enough that it'll never provide huge swings unless you're attacking with a Doomwake Giant or a bunch of Elspeth tokens, and you have to dump a lot of mana into this to start getting uses out of it. Getting back an enchantment when you have an Eidolon of Blossoms out makes whipping something back worth the mana investment, but even in that situation, Eidolon of Blossoms being on the field means you're in a great position. I personally think I'd prefer something with more immediate effect, as it's not going to help you against the midrange decks that are forcing their way past you.
I haven't really tested out Abzan Ascendancy. Were the 1/1 tokens good as a way to stall? The ETB ability seems fairly irrelevant to us, so I'd imagine the value of the card is in the second ability.
I'm not sure Grim Guardian is in a great place right now. Everyone is building their decks to be able to go over Courser of Kruphix, and Grim Guardian is going to take a lot of splash damage because of that. Nyx-Fleece Ram is attractive because it has 5 toughness, which can block Siege Rhino, Savage Knuckleblade unpumped, Anafenza, monstrous Fleecemane Lion, and Nissa tokens, but non-Courser walls that have 4 toughness are in something of a bad way right now. Especially if they can't threaten to trade with Goblin Rabblemaster. While incremental life loss is tempting, I think you'd be better served by just running some more removal. If you go up a Banishing Light and put in some Suspension Fields, you could even keep your enchantment count the same. If the Guardian could force 'walkers to lose counters, I might be more of a fan, but as is, I think he'll be underwhelming. He'll certainly funciton, but I think there are better cards to be running.
A note on Brain Maggot--Brain Maggot shouldn't really be thought of as a straightforward discard spell, because it isn't one. Brain Maggot exists to absorb removal, whether it be by taking it directly or forcing the opponent to spend a removal spell on Brain Maggot to get the card it took back. Unless it gets swept away or you're forced to block with it, Brain Maggot is almost always a 1-for-1. If they have to spend a card to get rid of Brain Maggot, it still forced them to discard a card--by using it on the Maggot. They get their card back, but they're still down a card mana, and time, and if you got a cantrip off of the Brain Maggot, you're even further ahead on CA. And there will be removal-light decks that just never kill the Brain Maggot, and then it was a discard spell. Brain Maggot isn't there to get rid of a threat permanently, you just want to do it temporarily and force your opponent to commit a removal spell to try and get back their curve while also interrupting their tempo. And if your opponent spends a Hero's Downfall on Brain Maggot, that's a removal spell they can't spend on Eidolon of Blossoms. It's solid against every deck type, as even against aggro, if you take their next turn's play and they're forced to kill it to get it back, you slowed them down and made them "discard" a card. I've won games against aggro because I spent my second turn taking away their Goblin Rabblemaster, forcing the aggro player to spend their turn 3 using Magma Jet to kill Brain Maggot, and only landing their Goblin Rabblemaster turn 4, when it was too late to stop me. Brain Maggot is also useful as long as the opponent has a hand, and actually gets better later into the game, as it can now cantrip or give everything -1/-1, and it has a bigger chance of stealing a card permanently.
Yeah, I mainly posted the decklist here cos I didn't see any brewing threads with decks that looked anything like mine, yet. Although I don't think of my deck as a Constellation deck per se, it's probably closer to this than anything else.
Pharika gets activated pretty frequently, but it's usually when I've managed to stabilize the board with creatures. Since a lot of my permanents give green devotion, it's not as hard as it might seem. Even then, she's extremely valuable when Eidolon is in play, just because her ability allows me to defend myself while drawing more cards. Athreos, on the other hand, is definitely my newest and more experimental inclusion to the deck. I suspect it will give me an edge against enemy sweeps, but who knows? I need to experiment with it more, first.
As for Nissa, I definitely can agree that she's not an amazing finisher for control. Part of it is that I want to have more than one finisher card (I realize nobody cares about Stain the Mind but me right now, but I do think it'll wind up being a sideboard staple soon enough). Another part is that I'm just not sure what else a good second finisher would be for control. I think Garruk is awfully expensive, and Liliana isn't particularly helpful. The Ajani cards, I feel, would actually be pretty good in this deck...but they don't close out games; they just make it a lot harder to lose. Maybe I need to stop being a sissy and just run Garruk instead. I'm open to suggestions, in any case.
Athreos and Grim Haruspex looks pure evil against sweepers, but does it actually do well? I'm split on including Grim Haruspex in my sideboard, and I don't really see when I would side into it except maybe in a control match up.
We're a week away from the Pro Tour, do you think that any constellation lists will be showing up? I do, and I hope it's both Abzan and Sultai lists.
I was finally able to free up some time to play outside of Cockatrice last night, and I went 4-1. The list I ran mirrors the current list in the OP.
Game 1: RW Aggro (?) 2-0
This was a weird brew--Purphoros and tokens, along with Rabblemaster, Seeker of the Way, and other RW aggro staples. As such, Doomwake Giant massacred him. It really wasn't even a game after I cast him. He'd spent his burn on my earlier creatures, so he couldn't do enough damage to Doomwake Giant to ever get rid of him. I got two triggers, wiped his field, and then proceeded to win. This happened in some way or another both games.
Game 2: Abzan Planeswalkers 2-1
This was essentially Abzan Midrange with a larger contingent of Planeswalkers than normal accompanying the Siege Rhinos and other traditional Abzan spells. Game 1 was a blowout in his favor--he landed a Sorin and an Elspeth that I couldn't answer, killed a Doomwake Giant, and ran over me. Game 2 was a blowout, again, but in my favor---Double Doomwake Giant just proves to be too much for him to handle, and by the time he can Elspeth them away, I have way too much card advantage to lose. Game 3 was a closer game, but Double Doomwake eventually gets it for me, as they can block his Siege Rhinos even when pumped by Sorin, and I eventually cast three enchantments (Brain Maggot, Brain Maggot, Banishing Light) and wipe his entire board.
Game 3: Naya Midrange 1-2
This is a matchup I felt decently about going in, but I knew Stormbreath Dragon was going to be an issue. I lost game 1 because I stalled on three lands after mulliganing, and though I did actually answer Stormbreath Dragon, I just died to two Rabblemasters afterwards, all while staring wistfully at the Doomwake Giant in my hand. I sided out my Nyx-Fleece rams and a couple Abzan Charms, for Silence the Believers and Thoughtseize, and I obliterate him game 2, with Doomwake keeping Rabblemaster under control, and my other removal taking Sarkhans and Stormbreaths out of the sky when necessary. Game 3 goes...less well. He gets the nut draw---turn 1 Mystic into turn 2 Goblin Rabblemaster, into Polukranos, into Stormbreath Dragon, into a second Goblin Rabblemaster. I actually almost stabilized until he cast the second Rabblemaster, putting into play enough tokens that brought my life total below something that Doomwake Giant was going to save me from, but that ended up wrapping up the game for him. I had to mulligan this game as well, so that also didn't help.
Game 4: Mono red aggro 2-0
I'm pretty certain I'm just this deck's nightmare matchup. None of the games are close. He gets very aggressive starts, and though my life dips quickly, Doomwake Giant comes down, wipes most of his board, and instantly stabilizes me. Both games are ended by me landing Doomwake Giant and then coasting to victory.
Game 5: Mardu Control 2-0
This was a matchup I didn't necessarily expect, but I have played it before. I mulligan and take a questionable hand, that gets even more unfortunate as the game went on. I had zero ways to pressure him, but what I DID have was a ridiculous amount of removal. I'm able to kill every single planeswalker he lands to try and close out the game with, and despite my deck trying as hard as it can to not give me anything, I eventually get there, landing an Elspeth after he used a lot of his removal that would hit planeswalkers on Eidolons and Doomwake Giants. I side out Nyx-Fleece Rams and Doomwake Giants, and then take the second game without much trouble.
Overall, despite the deck stumbling versus Naya Midrange, I felt pretty satisfied with the deck's performance. I'm really liking the full playset of Doomwake Giant. He's really good in the current metagame, as every non-control deck has something he can prey on--he wrecks Goblin Rabblemaster, he clears the field of Hornet Queen tokens, and he deals with Elspeth tokens and forces her to -3 to kill him. He also blocks a huge amount of threats profitably. However, if these matches taught me anything, it's that Abzan Charm was underwhelming. It's really disappointing against aggro, and the fact that it can only kill Goblin Rabblemaster when it attacks is very annoying. Missing Rabblemaster AND Stormbreath Dragon is just too much for me, personally. I'm considering dropping it entirely, replacing it with the 2 Silence the Believers from the sideboard and possibly a 25th land. Stormbreath Dragon is a very real danger for this deck, and I think I want at least 6 non-Elspeth ways to kill him. Silence the Believers also hits Sarkhan when he attacks, deals with Bestow when that's relevant, and the strive mode is amazing when games go a bit longer.
Also, the monored matchup is so insanely good, I don't really think I need to run the full 4 Drown in Sorrow. 2 Drown in Sorrow/2 Bile Blight will probably be sufficient, as the combination of Nyx-Fleece Ram, Sylvan Caryatid, Courser of Kruphix, and Doomwake Giant is often just too much for them to deal with.
I'm liking this deck a lot. I don't think I've found the optimal list for it yet, but I think it definitely has a place in the metagame.
I've been considering the GU options that are available, and I keep falling back to a BUG list a friend of mine was running last season, mainly superfriends with prophet and Kruphix together to generate absurd amounts of mana. Makes me wanna make my sideboard based around those 2 and villainous wealth as a joke-mill wincon.
I know last standard (what little constellation saw) that it struggled with planeswalkers. Overall, how well did your Abzan list fare against the various walkers once they were on board? Better than last season or worse?
@Cloudheadedamigo: Planeswalkers are about as annoying as they are for anyone, but they're not that bad this time around. 4x Hero's Downfall and 4x Banishing Light gives us a huge amount of ways to stike at 'walkers directly, and Doomwake Giant is pretty good at clearing the field of the tokens Walkers are often protecting themselves with.
Sweepers are countered with the fact that Eidolon nets card advantage or neutrality at the worst with other creatures, and that the bigger sweepers at 5+mana mean by the time they can wipe the board, we will be able to hardcast our creatures anyway.
I think kruphix has the trouble of not providing any threat or deterrence to the enemy board state, and I'm not sure how often extra mana can be stored up depending on the build. Prophet seems like she could be cool, though you did mention yourself she dies too easily to be useful sometimes, particularly with empty hands
Setessan Tactics has a problem of being weak to removal in the same way Polukranos is. If they kill your guy(s) in response, you get nothing. Because Ploukranos is more powerful, he should get the nod and we need to make our deck more resistent to being blown out that way by diversifying our removal. Plus, Doomwake/Poly/Colossus are all super slow. I like them all for thei power levels, but there's definitely such a thing as too many sweepers even if they are also your win condition as well.
I think that this deck wants the following:
1. Cheap, unconditional removal
2. cheap planewalkers as wrath resistance
Agreed. I find that ramping into fatties that also count as removal is awesome. Here's my current list:
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Eidolon of Blossoms
3 Chord of Calling
1 Nissa, Worldwaker
Fatties/removal
2 Reclamation Sage
4 Polukranos, World Eater
2 Nylea, God of the Hunt
3 Doomwake Giant
1 Arbor Colossus
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Voyaging Satyr
4 Temple of Malady
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
12 Forest
4 Nylea's Disciple
1 Doomwake Giant
2 Reclamation Sage
3 Thoughtseize
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
1 Agent of Erebos
2 Hero's Downfall
That's a fairly simple two colour list that is also going to consistently ramp, as well as draw, as well as cast fatties. Nissa is an experimenal addition that could easily be Garruk or a hydra or anything really.
4 Eidolon of Blossoms
4 Doomwake Giant
3 Boon Satyr
3 Courser of Kruphix
4 Sylvan Caryatid
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hero's Downfall
1 Whip of Erebos
2 Bile Blight
2 Nissa, Worldwaker
2 Murderous Cut
1 Liliana Vess
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
9 Forest
6 Swamp
4 Llanowar Wastes
2 Bile Blight
2 Reclamation Sage
3 Brain Maggot
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Bow of Nylea
2 Drown in Sorrow
2 Arbor Colossus
2 Silence the Believers
I currently looking for a deck to build for this standard season and since Back to nature isn't a popular sideboard card yet I thought I would try and brew a list. I was very torn between a G/B list or a G/W/B one and was wondering since I assume you all have a lot more practice at this sort of deck would it be better to go G/B or G/W/B. I decided to brew a G/B list as it's just what I'm more comfortable with and was wondering what your thoughts are on this deck as I haven't seen a recent G/B list on the thread. I have a feeling I have a little to much removal and a few to many cards that interact with the graveyard. Thanks.
I've never really been a fan of the BW versions. Giving up the ability to use Eidolon of Blossoms and Courser of Kruphix for an incredibly grindy playstyle seems pretty weak, when Eidolon of Blossoms does so much to help that kind of playstyle in the first place, and Courser seems way better than Underworld Coinsmith. So yeah, I'd definitely recommend adding green.
I got in a lot of testing against what is an annoying match for us, RGx midrange. I've recently taken out Nyx-Fleece Ram from my maindeck to play 3 Thoughtseize, and they really helped in that matchup. The ability to rip 'walkers, Stormbreath Dragon, Wingmate Roc, and other things that provide instant value out of the opponent's hand is invaluable in a deck like ours. It's bad against the aggro decks, but once the Drown in Sorrows come in from the sideboard, our matchup against Monored really just becomes near-unloseable. Drown in Sorrow, plus all our removal, plus Courser, plus Doomwake makes the matchup incredibly simple, and we really only lose when we draw exceptionally poorly.