Yep, the games go on forever - but I usually manage to survive long enough. Only Graveyard hate and counterspells are problematic.
I've had no problems with aggro thus far. Maybe I should put in more Elspeths - I don't know. Thanks for your feedback, though.
Not sure if the configuration is correct as it could be that delving creatures out of my graveyard to cast murderous cut could be an issue with Nemesis of Mortals.
I think it should be achievable with correct sequencing- however it may be that I just want Polukranos in this slot. I want a threat that is above curve and it would be nice to not overly susceptible to GY hate
I think you are going to have an issue of not being able to so much. You are running a ton of mana creatures and still 24 lands. Cut down on one or the other
How are you finding reaper works for you? When I played with her it just felt like it did nothing. It's a bad whip target and gets chumped for ever doing nothing. Why aren't you running 4 sidisi? I'm just curious about your reasoning
I think you are going to have an issue of not being able to so much. You are running a ton of mana creatures and still 24 lands. Cut down on one or the other
What do you think the issue is? Anything you would change?
What do you think the issue is? Anything you would change?
The issue is you have 36 mana spells. Your threats are a little light as well and can be chumped. Hornet queen is really strong right now but can have difficulty closing out the game. I played a list very similar to yours sans the nemesis and had good luck but a lot of the time I felt like it was hornet or bust. maybe take out like 2 land and add in nighthowler. I haven't been a fan of nemesis in this deck so I would just take that out completely, but that is probably just preference right now. Maybe I am wrong and Nemesis is just a god in this deck. Whip should be a two of at least. It helps you race and lets you make a ton of hornets. maybe cut a caryatid or two. Commune with the gods should be in there as well I think.
How are you finding reaper works for you? When I played with her it just felt like it did nothing. It's a bad whip target and gets chumped for ever doing nothing. Why aren't you running 4 sidisi? I'm just curious about your reasoning
Good questions!
For Reaper, I find that she is a 4 drop that provides insane board presence. Sure, she may be chumped every now and again, but being able to add deathtouch and hexproof to a creature is to versatile to pass up on. I run 2 of her because of the scry to set up draws and having a 4/5 at turn 3-4 is great against aggro.
I run 2 of Sidisi because she does not end the game by herself. She is wonderful utility and gets out zombies every now and then, but I would rather bestow Nighthowler onto Sultai Scavenger and swing for 12 in the air then sit on Sidisi and possibly get 3-5 zombies. She is a great card, but not what I am looking for in a closer.
I think that Kheru Lich Lord is just going to be too expensive for a random payoff, alot of the creatures in this deck don't give a decent value regardless of what you get. I would much rather paying one more black for a Whip of Erebos activation on Sidisi, Blood Tyrant after draw step.
Definite no to Kheru. Random is almost always awful, and in this case you can easily end up with a 1/2 trampling voyaging satyr.. or a ferocious 0/3 trampling caryatid that can tap for mana the first time in comes into play. Regardless, he removes creatures from the yard.. and that's not an effect this deck wants without a guaranteed pay off (delve, whip). Best case scenario, you're looking for a late game grinder against control.. where whip is already what you want, and pharika is a better secondary option.
Chucklepunch has the right of it on kheru. But he will be a fun sidisi Edh card! The problem with rakshasa is we already have a ton of things to do on turn two and I would rather start the engine going than to play something that doesn't further the goals of the deck and eats up mana that could cast other spells later. It's an awesome card but not in this deck I think
Newer how? The list in op is a day old. Brad Nelson came out with a deck on scg versus videos of a more reanimator feel. Playing ashen riders and reanimate spells more than whip.
I haven't played Brad's list but I watched the games and I think the issue with it is a similar issue to the BG dredgechantment deck from last standard but with less synergy. The deck is basically goldfishing everygame, hoping you don't have a way to deal with ashen rider.
It has difficulty cutting anything because you rely so much on reanimating ashen rider and have so many slots used up.
I want to try out a deck like his, I thought it looked cool. I would probably make a few changes on creature choices tohugh. Not sure what else.
How does ops list compared to brads lost from the vs videos? Brads deck isn't tuned very well yet but I feel like it has a lot of potential.
The Ashen Rider / Reanimator build goes all in on the reanimation strategy. Reanimate Ashen Rider (exile something), it does (exile something), whip it back (exile something), EoT it's exiled (exile something). When you're not reanimating, the deck tends to stutter.
The build I posted earlier in the thread and those similar to it are really just grindy midrange decks with graveyard synergy. The interactions between Sidisi, Nighthowler, Nemesis of Mortals, delve cards, and self-mill effects play out as a way to create cheap, efficient beaters while using the graveyard to out-resource your opponents.
Whether either version, or even something in between, ends up being a player in the meta is yet to be seen. The deck feels very strong to me right now, although I can see it wanting more evasive threats to deal with Elspeth's and Xenagos's that aim to clog up the ground. For now, I'm digging Hornet Queen for that job with Bile Blight as my favorite cheap removal moving forward.
The deck has a lot of play to it. Getting the right balance of ramp, enablers, and threats is going to be the key.
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Currently playing:
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
Mongers have you tried my list yet? I added more evasive threats and downfalls for that reason specifically and have had good luck so far vs planeswalkers. The herald has been great. Putting that on sidisi feels so right
I have a new list. I've been doing a ton of testing, and I find reanimator is much more consistent/powerful then just 'dredge' and relying on nothing but whip.
I have a new list. I've been doing a ton of testing, and I find reanimator is much more consistent/powerful then just 'dredge' and relying on nothing but whip.
Dredge doesn't rely on whip. Whip is a late game grind tactic, implemented in the event that your undercosted fatties don't get the job done. If you were playing dredge with the whip as the central engine, you may want to play a build with no whips so you get a sense for how powerful the rest of the deck can be.
Reanimator has power, but comes with it's own set of issues. Graveyard hate is generally game over, where the delve/dredge versions can continue to play cards- granted it'll be at a tempo disadvantage.
I agree that we haven't hit an optimal build yet, but I'm confident the power is there. Aiming to work on this soon.. but too busy with work and freelance
I shared my list in the new card discussion, but it seems to fit here. the list still needs work it is far from optimized.
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"Unfortunately, all of my test animals have died or escaped, so i shall be the final subject. I feel no fear. This is a momentous night."
--Laboratory notes, final entry
ive tested several different GBx delve/dredge decks since the spoiler, and in my mind they have broken down into a few distinct categories
Whip based recursion:
these decks want to drop fatties in the yard, and bring them back with the whip. See the Unwritten can also work really nicely with the large number of nasty creatures you run. Hornet Queen, Ashen Rider and Siege Rhino have been the backbone for me so far. I dropped blue for straight Abzan. Biggest issue I have with this approach is getting Ashen Rider stuck in my hand: hes too hard to cast most games, and I dont have any discard outlets in Abzan to get him to the yard where he belongs.
Delve Based:
fill the yard to power delve, with whip really being more of a backup plan. Bombs are empty the pits and Necropolis fiend. This is the build that has leaned most heavily on Sidisi, but 3/3 and 2/2 bodies arent particularly good with the number of coursers and caryatids running around. Really felt like I lack late-game finishers. Fiend seems slow to come online, and keeping him fueled with graveyard cards is pretty tough once you start using his ability. I can jam the board with 2/2 zombies but decks like green-devotion can jam creatures almost as fast, and they tend to be much better. Also, Anger of the Gods, Drown in Sorrow and Bile Blight all make me cry.
Nighthowler/Nemesis based:
Can run GB, or with either Abzan or Sultai splashes. Feels the most straightforward so far. Doesnt leverage newer cards as much, although Sidisi and Murderous Cut have both been reasonable for me. Has some anti-synergy with the whip, but whipping sidisi (or even whipping wayfinder to chump block) can offset the graveyard card loss. This one feels like the least resilient to crypt/anafenza
I have a new list. I've been doing a ton of testing, and I find reanimator is much more consistent/powerful then just 'dredge' and relying on nothing but whip.
Dredge doesn't rely on whip. Whip is a late game grind tactic, implemented in the event that your undercosted fatties don't get the job done. If you were playing dredge with the whip as the central engine, you may want to play a build with no whips so you get a sense for how powerful the rest of the deck can be.
Reanimator has power, but comes with it's own set of issues. Graveyard hate is generally game over, where the delve/dredge versions can continue to play cards- granted it'll be at a tempo disadvantage.
I agree that we haven't hit an optimal build yet, but I'm confident the power is there. Aiming to work on this soon.. but too busy with work and freelance
That's what I get for skimming. I thought I was reading people were relying on whip, and were wondering if they should go into other reanimation tactics or not. Oh well.
Reanimator would have to be T1-T1.5 for people to even think about having more than Anafenza for GY hate, and she's not that hard to play around. (My Junk midrange brew runs 2, and has been my main testing partner most of the time.)
The best GY hate in standard right now is T Crypt, which isn't perfect. First of all it costs a card, and does nothing else of value at all. (Except be an Ensoul target if that's a competitive deck. Probably not.) They can only crack it once, and that's not even GG unless it's super late game. If they don't put it on the board, it can be thoughtseized out. If they put it on the board, it can be forced with a Sultai Charm, and you can then fill your yard with your bombs again. I personally will also be boarding in Dissolves against control, so that's always an option. That's even assuming they even draw into it. People will run maybe 1 SB. Let's worry about the hate until after the deck makes it big enough for running the hate to be worth it for competitive players.
Just because decks have decently effective hate doesn't mean they can't be super good, it actually means they know it might, so they printed answers.
I'm not worried. I think I'll be a skilled enough pilot to handle it if it starts becoming a problem.
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Abzan list looks really threat light, though. It's basically the one Elspeth, Pits or bust.
I've had no problems with aggro thus far. Maybe I should put in more Elspeths - I don't know. Thanks for your feedback, though.
4 Satyr Wayfinder
4 Nyx Weaver
4 Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
4 Nemesis of Mortals
1 Necropolis Fiend
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Hornet Queen
4 Murderous Cut
1 Whip of Erebos
3 Heros Downfall
1 Empty the Pits
Lands (24)
3 Forest
2 Islands
2 Swamp
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Opulent Palace
4 Temple of Malady
4 Polluted Delta
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Not sure if the configuration is correct as it could be that delving creatures out of my graveyard to cast murderous cut could be an issue with Nemesis of Mortals.
I think it should be achievable with correct sequencing- however it may be that I just want Polukranos in this slot. I want a threat that is above curve and it would be nice to not overly susceptible to GY hate
1 Hornet Queen
2 Reaper of the Wilds
3 Satyr Wayfinder
2 Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
3 Sultai Scavenger
4 Nighthowler
4 Nyx Weaver
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Murderous Cut
2 Whip of Erebos
3 Commune with the Gods
3 Taigam's Scheming
Lands:
3 Dismal backwater
3 Forest
3 Island
3 Jungle Hollow
3 Opulent Palace
6 Swamp
3 Temple of Mystery
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
This deck has done very well so far. I plan on taking to to FNM soon, and I'll be sure to update my status with it.
What do you think the issue is? Anything you would change?
The issue is you have 36 mana spells. Your threats are a little light as well and can be chumped. Hornet queen is really strong right now but can have difficulty closing out the game. I played a list very similar to yours sans the nemesis and had good luck but a lot of the time I felt like it was hornet or bust. maybe take out like 2 land and add in nighthowler. I haven't been a fan of nemesis in this deck so I would just take that out completely, but that is probably just preference right now. Maybe I am wrong and Nemesis is just a god in this deck. Whip should be a two of at least. It helps you race and lets you make a ton of hornets. maybe cut a caryatid or two. Commune with the gods should be in there as well I think.
Good questions!
For Reaper, I find that she is a 4 drop that provides insane board presence. Sure, she may be chumped every now and again, but being able to add deathtouch and hexproof to a creature is to versatile to pass up on. I run 2 of her because of the scry to set up draws and having a 4/5 at turn 3-4 is great against aggro.
I run 2 of Sidisi because she does not end the game by herself. She is wonderful utility and gets out zombies every now and then, but I would rather bestow Nighthowler onto Sultai Scavenger and swing for 12 in the air then sit on Sidisi and possibly get 3-5 zombies. She is a great card, but not what I am looking for in a closer.
I'm also just not a huge fan of paying on upkeep.
Modern
UWGB 4c Snow Control BGWU
Modern
UWGB 4c Snow Control BGWU
It has difficulty cutting anything because you rely so much on reanimating ashen rider and have so many slots used up.
I want to try out a deck like his, I thought it looked cool. I would probably make a few changes on creature choices tohugh. Not sure what else.
The Ashen Rider / Reanimator build goes all in on the reanimation strategy. Reanimate Ashen Rider (exile something), it does (exile something), whip it back (exile something), EoT it's exiled (exile something). When you're not reanimating, the deck tends to stutter.
The build I posted earlier in the thread and those similar to it are really just grindy midrange decks with graveyard synergy. The interactions between Sidisi, Nighthowler, Nemesis of Mortals, delve cards, and self-mill effects play out as a way to create cheap, efficient beaters while using the graveyard to out-resource your opponents.
Whether either version, or even something in between, ends up being a player in the meta is yet to be seen. The deck feels very strong to me right now, although I can see it wanting more evasive threats to deal with Elspeth's and Xenagos's that aim to clog up the ground. For now, I'm digging Hornet Queen for that job with Bile Blight as my favorite cheap removal moving forward.
The deck has a lot of play to it. Getting the right balance of ramp, enablers, and threats is going to be the key.
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
1x Ashen Rider
1x Clever Impersonator
1x Hornet Queen
4x Nyx Weaver
2x Polukranos, World Eater
1x Reaper of the Wilds
1x Resolute Archangel
4x Satyr Wayfinder
2x Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
1x Stormtide Leviathan
3x Sylvan Caryatid
Instants/Sorceries
2x Dig Through Time
1x Empty the Pits
2x Endless Obedience
2x Hero's Downfall
2x Rescue from the Underworld
1x See the Unwritten
3x Sultai Charm
2x Whip of Erebos
Lands
3x Llanowar Wastes
1x Mana Confluence
4x Opulent Palace
3x Temple of Deceit
4x Temple of Malady
4x Temple of Mystery
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Yavimaya Coast
1x Ashen Rider
3x Dissolve
3x Drown in Sorrow
1x Hero's Downfall
1x Hornet Queen
2x Rakshasa Deathdealer
1x Sultai Charm
3x Thoughtseize
Dredge doesn't rely on whip. Whip is a late game grind tactic, implemented in the event that your undercosted fatties don't get the job done. If you were playing dredge with the whip as the central engine, you may want to play a build with no whips so you get a sense for how powerful the rest of the deck can be.
Reanimator has power, but comes with it's own set of issues. Graveyard hate is generally game over, where the delve/dredge versions can continue to play cards- granted it'll be at a tempo disadvantage.
I agree that we haven't hit an optimal build yet, but I'm confident the power is there. Aiming to work on this soon.. but too busy with work and freelance
4x Nyx Weaver
4x Satyr Wayfinder
4x Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
4x Necropolis Fiend
4x Bloodsoaked Champion
1x Rakshasa Vizier
1x Pharika, God of Affliction
2x Sultai Ascendancy
1x Whip of Erebos
4x Commune with the Gods
4x Sultai Charm
2x Murderous Cut
1x Empty the Pits
2x Opulant Palace
2x Swamp
2x Island
3x Temple of Mystery
2x Temple of Malady
3x Llanowar Wastes
2x Yavimaya Coast
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Pharika, God of Affliction
2x Erebos, God of the Dead
1x Whip of Erebos
3x Thoughtseize
1x Despise
2x Hero's Downfall
3x Disdainful Stroke
2x Reclamation Sage
I shared my list in the new card discussion, but it seems to fit here. the list still needs work it is far from optimized.
--Laboratory notes, final entry
Whip based recursion:
these decks want to drop fatties in the yard, and bring them back with the whip. See the Unwritten can also work really nicely with the large number of nasty creatures you run. Hornet Queen, Ashen Rider and Siege Rhino have been the backbone for me so far. I dropped blue for straight Abzan. Biggest issue I have with this approach is getting Ashen Rider stuck in my hand: hes too hard to cast most games, and I dont have any discard outlets in Abzan to get him to the yard where he belongs.
Delve Based:
fill the yard to power delve, with whip really being more of a backup plan. Bombs are empty the pits and Necropolis fiend. This is the build that has leaned most heavily on Sidisi, but 3/3 and 2/2 bodies arent particularly good with the number of coursers and caryatids running around. Really felt like I lack late-game finishers. Fiend seems slow to come online, and keeping him fueled with graveyard cards is pretty tough once you start using his ability. I can jam the board with 2/2 zombies but decks like green-devotion can jam creatures almost as fast, and they tend to be much better. Also, Anger of the Gods, Drown in Sorrow and Bile Blight all make me cry.
Nighthowler/Nemesis based:
Can run GB, or with either Abzan or Sultai splashes. Feels the most straightforward so far. Doesnt leverage newer cards as much, although Sidisi and Murderous Cut have both been reasonable for me. Has some anti-synergy with the whip, but whipping sidisi (or even whipping wayfinder to chump block) can offset the graveyard card loss. This one feels like the least resilient to crypt/anafenza
That's what I get for skimming. I thought I was reading people were relying on whip, and were wondering if they should go into other reanimation tactics or not. Oh well.
Reanimator would have to be T1-T1.5 for people to even think about having more than Anafenza for GY hate, and she's not that hard to play around. (My Junk midrange brew runs 2, and has been my main testing partner most of the time.)
The best GY hate in standard right now is T Crypt, which isn't perfect. First of all it costs a card, and does nothing else of value at all. (Except be an Ensoul target if that's a competitive deck. Probably not.) They can only crack it once, and that's not even GG unless it's super late game. If they don't put it on the board, it can be thoughtseized out. If they put it on the board, it can be forced with a Sultai Charm, and you can then fill your yard with your bombs again. I personally will also be boarding in Dissolves against control, so that's always an option. That's even assuming they even draw into it. People will run maybe 1 SB. Let's worry about the hate until after the deck makes it big enough for running the hate to be worth it for competitive players.
Just because decks have decently effective hate doesn't mean they can't be super good, it actually means they know it might, so they printed answers.
I'm not worried. I think I'll be a skilled enough pilot to handle it if it starts becoming a problem.