Nyx Weaver has more synergy than Courser of Kruphix in this deck, that doesn't make it a good choice however.
The notion that the Raptor "package" is somehow better against fast Aggro is ridiculous. Edel had it right that Raptor and Protector add a element to the deck that was previously lacking but these additions are just that, additions. Control isn't even all that interested with out "grinding" you anymore, now they just straight up kill you.
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On the note of Esper Dragon Control just tapping out for a dragon to kill us with, what do people think about Merciless Executioner in the sideboard to deal with the hexproof Esper Dragons? If no wayfinders in play, can potentially sac to itself to be "just" a 3 mana edict to deal with Silumgar/Ojutai and then recast later with Whip or Den Protector. To deal with silumgar it's either that or Crux of Fate.
Merciless Executioner has always been high on my list of cards to SB that shore up the weaknesses of this deck. I think you want Either Executioner or Self-Inflicted Wound in any case. Wound is better against Gx aggro decks like Abzan Aggro, but I actually think Executioner takes the cake since he's so much better against the control decks while being effective against Abzan too. So yeah. Executioner seems actually like a pretty amazing card against the dragon heavy control decks.
Comparing nyx weaver to actual good cards is a terrible argument. I never said it is better against aggro, I agree courser is better for that and if that is all you are facing then run courser. Raptor is fine in the aggro match though and better in the decks that kill your threats, ie the rest of the top decks. I think you'd agree with me if you played it.
Whatever works for you though, I'll be done arguing about it and just keep winning with my list.
I'd almost prefer a Deadly Recluse reprint to any of those! That's one of my beefs with all of the reanimator decks--they're all fairly weak to decks that run more fliers than average. This is especially true on the draw. Wow do I have a lot of games where I'm desperate to top deck a Murderous Cut or find a way to get Hornet Queen into play! I know the top tier decks aren't necessarily running 10 fliers, but there are enough red/white-based decks floating around out there to make it a problem. This deck can really lose fast to a Wingmate Roc backed up with burn. Quite a few of the red fliers out there are hasty now, so a lot of times it's hard to dig out even with a Whip in play. All of this deck's early plays are ground guys and it takes some time to get more than like 1 Murderous Cut online.
Anyone else finding flier-heavy decks to be a nightmare?
"The sacred cow I have trimmed in the above list is Courser of Kruphix, which I suspect may be unnecessary in the deck once it has Deathmist Raptor as a card-advantage gaining threat. Removing Courser entirely has the fringe benefit of making Dromoka's Command less effective, even allowing you the option of sidestepping the sacrifice an enchantment mode entirely if you side out Whip of Erebos." - Ross Meriam
"The sacred cow I have trimmed in the above list is Courser of Kruphix, which I suspect may be unnecessary in the deck once it has Deathmist Raptor as a card-advantage gaining threat. Removing Courser entirely has the fringe benefit of making Dromoka's Command less effective, even allowing you the option of sidestepping the sacrifice an enchantment mode entirely if you side out Whip of Erebos." - Ross Meriam
Note that in the list posted for the article, he just went down to 3 coursers to make room for the full 4 den protector/4 raptor, not cutting it entirely.
I think it's a very close decision on whether to run Courser or Deathmist but even with the synergy between Deathmist and Den Protector I still lean towards Courser. Courser acts as protection for your Whips from Dromoka's Command. Mr. Merriam suggested in his article you could side out the whips and have zero enchantments in your deck but:
1. It's not like we're blanking Dromoka's Command, they will get some use out of it.
2. I can't imagine a match up where I don't want a Whip.
Now if we're talking about a deck without Whip then absolutely I'd want the Deathmist but they would be replacing the Whips not the Coursers.
Perfect. Better that writers are telling players not to play (or prepare for) Sidisi Whip decks. When other players think your deck is inconsequential to the metagame, that's an advantage.
Well, the deck does have it's problems but I wouldn't write it off just yet.
From my experience the most difficult matchup is Abzan aggro. There are only so many sideboard slots I'm willing do dedicate to a terrible matchup in order to make it just a bad matchup.
Esper Dragons doesn't play out much differently from UB control in my experience, since most of the sideboard package we bring in is identical to the one we use against UB with the exception that the new breed of control decks has far fewer means to get rid of a resolved Whip of Erebos.
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
I run a Delve deck which has game against every archetype. I'll post the list in a day or two, but the general gist is:
- Drop the Whip and don't rely on creatures with EtB effects
- Instead, think of the graveyard as a second library. You fill it up (Wayfinder, Weaver, Sidisi), then draw whatever you need from it (Den Protector, Weaver, Soul of Innistrad) or use it as a resource (Nighthowler, Corpseweft (yes, it works), Delve cards)
- You'll win against control because they can't keep up with your recursion, Corpseweft in particular
- You'll win against aggro because your Wayfinders, Sidisis and Weavers are cluttering the board and are fine with Drown in Sorrow out of the board
I run a Delve deck which has game against every archetype. I'll post the list in a day or two, but the general gist is:
- Drop the Whip and don't rely on creatures with EtB effects
- Instead, think of the graveyard as a second library. You fill it up (Wayfinder, Weaver, Sidisi), then draw whatever you need from it (Den Protector, Weaver, Soul of Innistrad) or use it as a resource (Nighthowler, Corpseweft (yes, it works), Delve cards)
- You'll win against control because they can't keep up with your recursion, Corpseweft in particular
- You'll win against aggro because your Wayfinders, Sidisis and Weavers are cluttering the board and are fine with Drown in Sorrow out of the board
Seriously, forget about the whip.
How does that deck fair against burn? It certainly looks very challenging without the lifegain that Whip of Erebos provides...
Corpseweft does indeed look interesting since it does duck Disdainful Stroke (probably not it's major selling point but it shouldn't be overlooked). Could you be more specific on how the card plays out in the control matchups?
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
So i´ve picked up this deck recently, and i´m pretty happy with it so far. My current record is 19-1-1, loss was against abzan aggro, although i played horribly (i´d rather not talk about it) and it also was against my country´s 3 time WMC competitor... so yeah, the guy can play. And the draw was an intentional to secure my top 4 seat in the game day.
All in all i think it´s an extremely solid deck mainly because it´s one of the most "over the top" decks around, which is why i chose playing it in the first place.
Moving forward, i think that if esper keeps dominating, transitioning towards deathmist raptor and den protector might probably be the way to go. Heck, even once courser / caryatid shell rotates, it´s probably going to be the best replacement anyways. Regardless i still don´t know if dedicating 8 slots in the main is feasible or how i´d even do it, but i did try a singleton den protector last friday and every time i drew it, it was great. Like really really good. I remember keeping a good hand with it and getting IT thoughtseized and not my whip. Or morphing it, my opponent -2 ing a sorin with a butcher in play and me megamorphing the den protector to return a murderous cut, killing the butcher and attacking down the sorin through the token, it´s got potential.
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A huge thanks to Argetlam and the guys at Hakai studios for this awesome banner
Been working on a list for a few months now, and have kept tuning to the meta. Recently tested a lot on cockatrice and having fantastic results against meta decks. Esper Dragons can't beat Den Protectors. If you draw even one game one you have the advantage in that game. I would put this list at about 50% against control g1, and 60-70% after sideboard. It isn't much of an upgrade against red decks, but in those matchups you just need to play whip to win.
Pretty sure my sideboard is too heavy anti-control, and might need one more anti-aggro spell and another anti midrange spell. Abzan with anafenza can be a *****...
I've been noticing more and more lists dropping Tasigur, the Golden Fang entirely. How has that been for you? Ever find yourself missing him?
The problem with Tasigur in whip decks is that the activated ability very rarely matters. In decks like Abzan, where most of your cards are good at all stages, you can get full value out of his ability. In whip decks, you have quite a few cards that just don't matter past turn 2. Cards like Caryatid and Wayfinder are key cogs to the deck, but frequently turn Tasigur into a waste. He is excellent as a very cheap beater in this deck, but very frequently, his activated ability doesn't do anything. This doesn't mean that he isn't a good card, but if you are moving to deathmist/den protector, then you don't really have room for him anymore. I've been messing around with raptor lists, and haven't missed him at all.
1) Mill off something you don't want to draw but see via Courser.
2) Make zombies with Sidisi in play.
3) Fill your yard for delve spells like Cut and Cruise or dudes to eat with Pharika.
4) Give you additional Whip targets.
5) Sometimes get a good card back.
Corpseweft keeps the cost of recasting Risen Executioner down, and you get value off the Wayfinders, Caryatids and Coursers that end up there. Executioner makes Sidisi a scary 5/7 and of course isn't Legendary so you can have both on the board. And no Tasigur. Monastery Siege to feed Sidisi Zombies and Corpseweft, although I guess Treasure Cruise could be an option there as well. Profaner of the Dead is a consideration over Torrent Elemental, especially if one manages to land a 3-creature 6/6 Zombie Horror beforehand, but it seems quite situational.
Thank you. Think you've convinced me on Tasigur... Been doing some testing and although it's nice to have a bunch of 3/3 Zombies I see where you're coming from. Might drop a Whip, but would prefer at least two of each as Corpseweft helps make Tasigur less useless when you have a bunch of Wayfinders in the graveyard. What would you put in instead?
How many Profaners and drifting Silumgars would you put in the SB?
It's a bit creature heavy... If anything has to go, I'm thinking Pharika and one of the Sidisi Viziers. Pharika does a similar job to the Cuts though in keeping the graveyard clear of any rubbish, is the theory anyway... I need to get more synergy with Tasigur and Sidisi though, been missing that in the past, which is why I'm popping an extra Tasigur in there. Need to make it less about whipping back and more about control, hence only the two Whips.
One thing I'm contemplating is Foul-Tongue Invocation over the Executioner in the Sideboard, more for the instant speed than the lifegain, and doesn't need the saccing. Even considering two, dropping the Sage as I have the two Charms MB.
After some thinking, and looking at how Esper handles control, I think two Foul-Tongue Invocations are the way to go in the Sideboard, and also <gasp> two Risen Executioners. It's a staple in Esper Control as it can just be cast back from the graveyard, which makes a lot of sense. Going to try it anyway. It's really about getting away from the Reanimation/Whip side of things and move more towards a Control/Aggro type.
I'm also not convinced about Dragonlord Silumgar. Great effect but in the matchups I want him most he just seems to get killed off quickly. It's not like the opponent's creature gets haste. I was running one SB and now it's out. I run one Silumgar, the Drifting Death MB, non on the side.
It's starting to look like any green-based midrange strategy that puts up results is running Den Protector/Deathmist Raptor. Is it possible to be competitive in the current standard with this deck without running those 2 cards? Are they a virtual requirement now that control is a larger part of the meta?
Not sure a reanimator deck that relies on mana dorks, an enchantment artifact, and bringing back creatures really wants a planeswalker that exiles permanents on both sides of the board. Also, Sidisi Whip can go over the top of midrange strategies anyway. First and foremost this deck needs help against control.
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The notion that the Raptor "package" is somehow better against fast Aggro is ridiculous. Edel had it right that Raptor and Protector add a element to the deck that was previously lacking but these additions are just that, additions. Control isn't even all that interested with out "grinding" you anymore, now they just straight up kill you.
Merciless Executioner has always been high on my list of cards to SB that shore up the weaknesses of this deck. I think you want Either Executioner or Self-Inflicted Wound in any case. Wound is better against Gx aggro decks like Abzan Aggro, but I actually think Executioner takes the cake since he's so much better against the control decks while being effective against Abzan too. So yeah. Executioner seems actually like a pretty amazing card against the dragon heavy control decks.
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Whatever works for you though, I'll be done arguing about it and just keep winning with my list.
Anyone else finding flier-heavy decks to be a nightmare?
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30698_Beating-Esper.html
Note that in the list posted for the article, he just went down to 3 coursers to make room for the full 4 den protector/4 raptor, not cutting it entirely.
1. It's not like we're blanking Dromoka's Command, they will get some use out of it.
2. I can't imagine a match up where I don't want a Whip.
Now if we're talking about a deck without Whip then absolutely I'd want the Deathmist but they would be replacing the Whips not the Coursers.
Picking the Right Deck
Perfect. Better that writers are telling players not to play (or prepare for) Sidisi Whip decks. When other players think your deck is inconsequential to the metagame, that's an advantage.
From my experience the most difficult matchup is Abzan aggro. There are only so many sideboard slots I'm willing do dedicate to a terrible matchup in order to make it just a bad matchup.
Esper Dragons doesn't play out much differently from UB control in my experience, since most of the sideboard package we bring in is identical to the one we use against UB with the exception that the new breed of control decks has far fewer means to get rid of a resolved Whip of Erebos.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
I run a Delve deck which has game against every archetype. I'll post the list in a day or two, but the general gist is:
- Drop the Whip and don't rely on creatures with EtB effects
- Instead, think of the graveyard as a second library. You fill it up (Wayfinder, Weaver, Sidisi), then draw whatever you need from it (Den Protector, Weaver, Soul of Innistrad) or use it as a resource (Nighthowler, Corpseweft (yes, it works), Delve cards)
- You'll win against control because they can't keep up with your recursion, Corpseweft in particular
- You'll win against aggro because your Wayfinders, Sidisis and Weavers are cluttering the board and are fine with Drown in Sorrow out of the board
Seriously, forget about the whip.
How does that deck fair against burn? It certainly looks very challenging without the lifegain that Whip of Erebos provides...
Corpseweft does indeed look interesting since it does duck Disdainful Stroke (probably not it's major selling point but it shouldn't be overlooked). Could you be more specific on how the card plays out in the control matchups?
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
So i´ve picked up this deck recently, and i´m pretty happy with it so far. My current record is 19-1-1, loss was against abzan aggro, although i played horribly (i´d rather not talk about it) and it also was against my country´s 3 time WMC competitor... so yeah, the guy can play. And the draw was an intentional to secure my top 4 seat in the game day.
All in all i think it´s an extremely solid deck mainly because it´s one of the most "over the top" decks around, which is why i chose playing it in the first place.
Moving forward, i think that if esper keeps dominating, transitioning towards deathmist raptor and den protector might probably be the way to go. Heck, even once courser / caryatid shell rotates, it´s probably going to be the best replacement anyways. Regardless i still don´t know if dedicating 8 slots in the main is feasible or how i´d even do it, but i did try a singleton den protector last friday and every time i drew it, it was great. Like really really good. I remember keeping a good hand with it and getting IT thoughtseized and not my whip. Or morphing it, my opponent -2 ing a sorin with a butcher in play and me megamorphing the den protector to return a murderous cut, killing the butcher and attacking down the sorin through the token, it´s got potential.
A huge thanks to Argetlam and the guys at Hakai studios for this awesome banner
4 Satyr Wayfinder
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
4 Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
2 Dragonlord Atarka
1 Silumgar, the Drifting Death
3 Den Protector
3 Deathmist Raptor
Noncreature (9):
2 Hero's Downfall
3 Murderous Cut
2 Whip of Erebos
1 Sultai Charm
1 Thoughtseize
3 Forest
1 Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
3 Llanowar Wastes
1 Mana Confluence
2 Frontier Bivouac
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Opulent Palace
3 Temple of Malady
2 Yavimaya Coast
3 Thoughtseize
2 Stratus Dancer
1 Bile Blight
1 Ultimate Price
1 Drown in Sorrow
1 Treasure Cruise
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Merciless Executioner
1 Soul of Innistrad
1 Crux of Fate
Pretty sure my sideboard is too heavy anti-control, and might need one more anti-aggro spell and another anti midrange spell. Abzan with anafenza can be a *****...
Suggestions?
The problem with Tasigur in whip decks is that the activated ability very rarely matters. In decks like Abzan, where most of your cards are good at all stages, you can get full value out of his ability. In whip decks, you have quite a few cards that just don't matter past turn 2. Cards like Caryatid and Wayfinder are key cogs to the deck, but frequently turn Tasigur into a waste. He is excellent as a very cheap beater in this deck, but very frequently, his activated ability doesn't do anything. This doesn't mean that he isn't a good card, but if you are moving to deathmist/den protector, then you don't really have room for him anymore. I've been messing around with raptor lists, and haven't missed him at all.
1) Mill off something you don't want to draw but see via Courser.
2) Make zombies with Sidisi in play.
3) Fill your yard for delve spells like Cut and Cruise or dudes to eat with Pharika.
4) Give you additional Whip targets.
5) Sometimes get a good card back.
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
2 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
2 Risen Executioner
2 Torrent Elemental
1 Hornet Queen
2 Icefall Regent
2 Silumgar, the Drifting Death
2 Dragonlord Silumgar
Enchantments 7
2 Corpseweft
2 Monastery Siege
3 Whip of Erebos
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Murderous Cut
2 Negate
Corpseweft keeps the cost of recasting Risen Executioner down, and you get value off the Wayfinders, Caryatids and Coursers that end up there. Executioner makes Sidisi a scary 5/7 and of course isn't Legendary so you can have both on the board. And no Tasigur. Monastery Siege to feed Sidisi Zombies and Corpseweft, although I guess Treasure Cruise could be an option there as well. Profaner of the Dead is a consideration over Torrent Elemental, especially if one manages to land a 3-creature 6/6 Zombie Horror beforehand, but it seems quite situational.
How many Profaners and drifting Silumgars would you put in the SB?
4 Satyr Wayfinder
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
4 Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
2 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Torrent Elemental
2 Dragonlord Silumgar
1 Hornet Queen
Enchantments 2
2 Whip of Erebos
Spells 9
3 Murderous Cut
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Sultai Charm
2 Disdainful Stroke
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
1 Polluted Delta
4 Opulent Palace
4 Llanowar Wastes
2 Yavimaya Coast
1 Temple of Malady
1 Temple of Mystery
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
1 Silumgar, the Drifting Death
1 Profaner of the Dead
1 Soul of Innistrad
2 Doomwake Giant
2 Negate
1 Merciless Executioner
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Bile Blight
1 Drown in Sorrow
1 Crux of Fate
2 Thoughtseize
It's a bit creature heavy... If anything has to go, I'm thinking Pharika and one of the Sidisi Viziers. Pharika does a similar job to the Cuts though in keeping the graveyard clear of any rubbish, is the theory anyway... I need to get more synergy with Tasigur and Sidisi though, been missing that in the past, which is why I'm popping an extra Tasigur in there. Need to make it less about whipping back and more about control, hence only the two Whips.
One thing I'm contemplating is Foul-Tongue Invocation over the Executioner in the Sideboard, more for the instant speed than the lifegain, and doesn't need the saccing. Even considering two, dropping the Sage as I have the two Charms MB.
It's a work in progress...
Also wondering about Foul-Tongue Invocation vs. Merciless Executioner. I know it's been discussed, but why would instant speed be better than triggering Sidisi?
I'm also not convinced about Dragonlord Silumgar. Great effect but in the matchups I want him most he just seems to get killed off quickly. It's not like the opponent's creature gets haste. I was running one SB and now it's out. I run one Silumgar, the Drifting Death MB, non on the side.
Not sure a reanimator deck that relies on mana dorks, an enchantment artifact, and bringing back creatures really wants a planeswalker that exiles permanents on both sides of the board. Also, Sidisi Whip can go over the top of midrange strategies anyway. First and foremost this deck needs help against control.