I'll admit that Anafenza is a little scary in nearly all builds thus far. I prefer to play delve/dredge/reanimator builds with little regard to what my opponent is up to during game one, using redundancy, thoughtseize and huge creatures to sculpt my gameplan. Anafenza throws a wrench in that because now we have a very, very playable creature that can wreck our plans.. so we're kind of forced to keep at least a few maindeck answers around. Same thing happened with Scavenging Ooze last standard. Abzan Charm has her under control, but Sultai and other G/B/x builds should probably keep an eye on her.
Tormod's Crypt is mostly a nuisance. You can definitely play around something that obvious.
I'll admit that Anafenza is a little scary in nearly all builds thus far. I prefer to play delve/dredge/reanimator builds with little regard to what my opponent is up to during game one, using redundancy, thoughtseize and huge creatures to sculpt my gameplan. Anafenza throws a wrench in that because now we have a very, very playable creature that can wreck our plans.. so we're kind of forced to keep at least a few maindeck answers around. Same thing happened with Scavenging Ooze last standard. Abzan Charm has her under control, but Sultai and other G/B/x builds should probably keep an eye on her.
Tormod's Crypt is mostly a nuisance. You can definitely play around something that obvious.
Agree 100%.
The best way I've found to answer her in Sultai is to main 2 Hero's Downfalls, and side 1 more. It also answers the other thing we really care about getting rid of: Planeswalkers. Easy to get back with a Nyx Weaver, or just to save in your hand if you drew it.
I have 3 muderous cuts and 3 downfalls and haven't had to much of an issue with her. You just have to play around her if you suspect she is in your opponents deck. She doesn't exile creatures already in your gy and you can advance your board state without having to dredge. I really don't think there are a lot of answers to this deck right now.
I have 3 muderous cuts and 3 downfalls and haven't had to much of an issue with her. You just have to play around her if you suspect she is in your opponents deck. She doesn't exile creatures already in your gy and you can advance your board state without having to dredge. I really don't think there are a lot of answers to this deck right now.
I didn't like M cut in testing. It didn't do enough. I like to abuse the toolboxing of Nyx Weaver, and M cut is just not a good target because it takes decent chunks out of your GY everytime you use it.
Try bumping your Nyx Weaver count up to 4, and dropping M cut to 1. I think you'll be a lot better off.
I didn't like M cut in testing. It didn't do enough. I like to abuse the toolboxing of Nyx Weaver, and M cut is just not a good target because it takes decent chunks out of your GY everytime you use it.
Try bumping your Nyx Weaver count up to 4, and dropping M cut to 1. I think you'll be a lot better off.
I've had it both ways. I found that I had too much mill and not enough threats so I cut down on mill a bit. And murderous cut is amazing. There are generally enough non-creatures in the gy that delve effects you any a meaningful way and you don't have to cast it for one anyways. The only thing I really want in my gy are bombs to bring back. I don't need to make nighthowler a 15/15 when a 6/6 works just as well.
Herald, hornet, and fiend. Night howler turns any of them into a threat. And herald jumps over their blockers plus pumps pretty much anything into the biggest flyer
I've had it both ways. I found that I had too much mill and not enough threats so I cut down on mill a bit. And murderous cut is amazing. There are generally enough non-creatures in the gy that delve effects you any a meaningful way and you don't have to cast it for one anyways. The only thing I really want in my gy are bombs to bring back. I don't need to make nighthowler a 15/15 when a 6/6 works just as well.
Then you need to take out Empty the Pits if that's your preference. If M cut hit walkers as well, I'd be on board. But you have to exile 3 cards to get it cheaper then H Downfall, for less consistency. I just never liked it. Early it's dead unless you lead off with a wayfinder, and then you're exiling all the mill you just gave yourself. Or if it's late enough, you have the mana for H downfall easily. It's not versatile enough to take away the delve fodder for Dig Through Time and Empty the Pits.
What are you guys using for evasion? It looks to be a very chump blocky format.
You're correct. My 4 'main' targets are 3 flyers in Ashen Rider, Resolute Archangel, and Hornet Queen, with one Island Walker in Stormtide Leviathan that has island walk, turns all lands into islands as well, and prevents all non-flying, non-island walking creatures from attacking.
Necropolis Fiend Myself, has anyone considered running Thassa,God of the Sea in sideboard for midrange match ups where board state becomes a problem? Giving your guy unblockable seems huge.
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"Unfortunately, all of my test animals have died or escaped, so i shall be the final subject. I feel no fear. This is a momentous night."
--Laboratory notes, final entry
This is what I've been toying around with. Took the second deck Prince Abubu posted and made some changes after testing. Sagu Mauler is just a beast. I'm never sad to see him. I moved 2 to the maindeck and added a third to the sideboard.The deck is overall really powerful but bends to
Anger of the gods/Drown in sorrow/Bile Blight and surprisingly Ashiok is a very tough card to deal with. Mauler really helps against all of those cards and other pesky walkers. Its a hell of a wall for aggro or even midrange to deal with, and control might deal with it once, but with whip always looming, its not likely they can deal with him multiple times. I took out one Hornet Queen and Necropolis. Queen is great but you really only need to stick her once or twice to win against anything not playing board wipes, and if they are playing board wipes I likey just side her out for Mauler and discard. The sideboard is packed with discard hate for walkers and board wipes, the only cards the deck struggles with.
My toughest matchups are those where I ended up milling myself out even though I had better board position.
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Abubu how has your sideboard been coming along? Also what is your most recent list - is it still the one in the first post. I plan to playtest a ton this week and would like to give some feedback.
Abubu how has your sideboard been coming along? Also what is your most recent list - is it still the one in the first post. I plan to playtest a ton this week and would like to give some feedback.
Honestly I'm not working on a sideboard. I know I'll have some number of Empty the pits and thoughtseize but until the metagame starts shaping out, its just going to be whatever you think will do best at your FNM. Different threats, more flyers, removal, counterspells, even some planeswalkers are all things I'm looking at as possibilities for the board but nothing set in stone really.
As for my deck it is very similar to the one in OP still. That list was updated two nights ago. I don't have and pits in the main anymore but I still think the card is a house and will keep it as I said in the sideboard. People on Cockatrice play mostly fast decks and it didn't do much vs them. Vs midrange and control I love it and would keep it in the main if I felt there was going to be a lot of courser decks running around.
After watching some of the versus videos, I like how the instant speed recursion card plays with ETB effects and may look to fit it in the deck.
I would like some other people to play the soothsayer as its felt like a strong edition to the deck. Its not the most aggressively costed card obviously but it provides a turn 5 play that furthers the object of the deck. I don't honestly know what I would put instead for that drop. Maybe more heralds or something I suppose. That is one I would love to hear about from other people, whether its a bust or boom.
This is where I'm at now. I've done a bit of play with proxy. Been facing a couple heavy discard decks that were a pain to handle. Other than that seems fairly consistent. Probably need to add more drown in sorrow to the side for the quick weenie decks
This is where I'm at now. I've done a bit of play with proxy. Been facing a couple heavy discard decks that were a pain to handle. Other than that seems fairly consistent. Probably need to add more drown in sorrow to the side for the quick weenie decks
I like this list. I think we need to focus on one mechanic- dredge or delve. You can't really mix them in equal parts without losing consistency. This list is pure dredge, with a very slight touch of power delve- plus a sideboard full of good delve to bring in for matches where you don't need tons of big threats.
I went through all the sets and pulled out every card I thought could even be considered as a sideboard option. I'd like to have a decent sideboard option for after rotation - decks should be considered 75 cards, not just 60. Game 2-3 are a lot more important than game 1.
I really like ZorrosRage's take on the deck, but I wanted to pose a question to both you and PrinceAbubu: Why no Sagu Mauler? I know PrinceAbubu mentioned it in his sideboard. I saw several posts talking about it being a great bomb/whip target. I'm mostly just curious. I haven't really played in standard and I'm interested in getting into it with this deck. Thanks!
Got another SCG list for you guys. This one is from BBD, and it's very much a Delve deck. Prognostic Sphinx is definitely a house, but this deck is the least graveyard-centric of the bunch so far.
I've done a lot of testing, and I've slowly reduced the number of enablers until eventually I reached almost a BUG control core. What I've found is that while the graveyard strategy is fine if it gets rolling, it doesn't really have good matchups against midrange threats and doesn't get off the ground quick enough against aggro. The last enabler I ditched was Sultai Ascendancy, which was awesome at setting up draws but horrible against aggro or as a topdeck. My current list uses just Sidisi and Nyx Weaver.
As far as a sideboard goes, I have two options. I can either use a transformative sideboard to shift hard towards either control or dredge, or I can run a lot of matchup specific removal and threats. I'm testing out each option, but I like the idea of going all-in on a different plan after an opponent sides against me.
You might wonder why I don't include Sultai Charms or more delve spells. I don't exclude them because of their power level or because I found them clunky, but because they weren't essential to the plan. Sultai Charm is never dead, but in many matchups it can't hit what you want (ie Butcher, planeswalkers) and is harder to cast than Hero's Downfall. I would include more delve spells if I had room, but I don't want to cut anything to make room for them in the main. I've found that the classic Thoughtseize/Downfall combo is the best removal suite because it can target basically every threat in the format and isn't hard to hit mana-wise. I also have found that mainboard Drown in Sorrows is a must, and is more versatile than I thought against midrange (almost entirely because it clears Elspeth and Sorin tokens).
Has anyone else experimented with a more control-esque build? Satyr Wayfinder and Commune with the Gods to fill the yard and Sultai Ascendancy's dig power is a great way to search for specific answers. With Despise and Thoughtseize you can play some nasty hand disruption, Murderous Cut gives cheap removal and Necropolis Fiend can quickly take the board over. A late game Empty the Pits for four or five zombies ends the game pretty quickly as well.
^^ That's essentially what BBD's version does. He's playing Prognostic Sphinx as an independent finisher (which benefits greatly from the lack of good sweepers) and using the graveyard elements as a method of fueling Murderous Cut, Empty the Pits, and Dig Through Time.
An active Sphinx + Sultai Ascendency potentially gives you 5 looks at the top of your deck to sculpt your draws. It's a pretty powerful effect, but Ascendency feels clunky and slow for the presumably aggro heavy meta of the first few weeks.
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Currently playing:
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
I agree on Sultai Ascendancy. I'm a huge fan of the card and when it got spoilered I immediately thought "hoboy I can't wait to play some legacy in standard" but since you only start reaping benefits starting turn 4 it can be rather slow (reprinting Erase with all these awesome 3 mana enchantments was a bad move as well)
Am I the only one who's just not a fan of the Sphinx at all? Definitely, without a doubt in the deck we're trying to put together.. but just in general.
Am I the only one who's just not a fan of the Sphinx at all? Definitely, without a doubt in the deck we're trying to put together.. but just in general.
I don't like him in this deck. I also don't like him when there are reliable, efficient sweepers in the format. But we are not in one of those formats anymore.
He's difficult to kill, provides a reasonable clock for a control deck, and lets you look at 3 cards a turn. Once resolved with a couple cards in hand, most decks just can't remove him. He's small enough to survive -3 Elspeth, but big enough to stonewall most creatures, including Stormbreath Dragon and Sarkan. These qualities made him an allstar at the Block Pro Tour, and he's one of the big reasons why the BUG Control decks did so well there.
All of that being said, I don't know whether he's going to transition well to Standard, and he's definitely not something I'm terribly interested in for this deck.
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Currently playing:
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
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Tormod's Crypt is mostly a nuisance. You can definitely play around something that obvious.
Agree 100%.
The best way I've found to answer her in Sultai is to main 2 Hero's Downfalls, and side 1 more. It also answers the other thing we really care about getting rid of: Planeswalkers. Easy to get back with a Nyx Weaver, or just to save in your hand if you drew it.
I didn't like M cut in testing. It didn't do enough. I like to abuse the toolboxing of Nyx Weaver, and M cut is just not a good target because it takes decent chunks out of your GY everytime you use it.
Try bumping your Nyx Weaver count up to 4, and dropping M cut to 1. I think you'll be a lot better off.
I've had it both ways. I found that I had too much mill and not enough threats so I cut down on mill a bit. And murderous cut is amazing. There are generally enough non-creatures in the gy that delve effects you any a meaningful way and you don't have to cast it for one anyways. The only thing I really want in my gy are bombs to bring back. I don't need to make nighthowler a 15/15 when a 6/6 works just as well.
Then you need to take out Empty the Pits if that's your preference. If M cut hit walkers as well, I'd be on board. But you have to exile 3 cards to get it cheaper then H Downfall, for less consistency. I just never liked it. Early it's dead unless you lead off with a wayfinder, and then you're exiling all the mill you just gave yourself. Or if it's late enough, you have the mana for H downfall easily. It's not versatile enough to take away the delve fodder for Dig Through Time and Empty the Pits.
You're correct. My 4 'main' targets are 3 flyers in Ashen Rider, Resolute Archangel, and Hornet Queen, with one Island Walker in Stormtide Leviathan that has island walk, turns all lands into islands as well, and prevents all non-flying, non-island walking creatures from attacking.
--Laboratory notes, final entry
2 Sagu Mauler
3 Elvish Mystic
2 Hornet Queen
4 Nyx Weaver
4 Satyr Wayfinder
4 Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
4 Sylvan Caryatid
Artifacts:
2 Whip of Erebos
Instants/Sorceries:
1 Thoughtseize
1 Empty the Pits
2 Hero's Downfall
3 Murderous Cut
2 Commune with the Gods
3 Taigam's Scheming
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Llanowar Wastes
3 Yavimaya Coast
2 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
3 Temple of Malady
1 Temple of Mystery
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Sagu Mauler
1 Empty the Pits
2 Hero's Downfall
3 Thoughtseize
1 Sultai Ascendancy
3 Drown in Sorrow
2 Negate
2 Despise
This is what I've been toying around with. Took the second deck Prince Abubu posted and made some changes after testing. Sagu Mauler is just a beast. I'm never sad to see him. I moved 2 to the maindeck and added a third to the sideboard.The deck is overall really powerful but bends to
Anger of the gods/Drown in sorrow/Bile Blight and surprisingly Ashiok is a very tough card to deal with. Mauler really helps against all of those cards and other pesky walkers. Its a hell of a wall for aggro or even midrange to deal with, and control might deal with it once, but with whip always looming, its not likely they can deal with him multiple times. I took out one Hornet Queen and Necropolis. Queen is great but you really only need to stick her once or twice to win against anything not playing board wipes, and if they are playing board wipes I likey just side her out for Mauler and discard. The sideboard is packed with discard hate for walkers and board wipes, the only cards the deck struggles with.
My toughest matchups are those where I ended up milling myself out even though I had better board position.
Sig banner courtesy of Miraculous Recovery Signatures
Modern
UWGB 4c Snow Control BGWU
Honestly I'm not working on a sideboard. I know I'll have some number of Empty the pits and thoughtseize but until the metagame starts shaping out, its just going to be whatever you think will do best at your FNM. Different threats, more flyers, removal, counterspells, even some planeswalkers are all things I'm looking at as possibilities for the board but nothing set in stone really.
As for my deck it is very similar to the one in OP still. That list was updated two nights ago. I don't have and pits in the main anymore but I still think the card is a house and will keep it as I said in the sideboard. People on Cockatrice play mostly fast decks and it didn't do much vs them. Vs midrange and control I love it and would keep it in the main if I felt there was going to be a lot of courser decks running around.
After watching some of the versus videos, I like how the instant speed recursion card plays with ETB effects and may look to fit it in the deck.
I would like some other people to play the soothsayer as its felt like a strong edition to the deck. Its not the most aggressively costed card obviously but it provides a turn 5 play that furthers the object of the deck. I don't honestly know what I would put instead for that drop. Maybe more heralds or something I suppose. That is one I would love to hear about from other people, whether its a bust or boom.
Modern
UWGB 4c Snow Control BGWU
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Satyr Wayfinder
3 Herald of Torment
3 Nighthowler
4 Nyx Weaver
3 Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
1 Nemesis of Mortals
2 Hornet Queen
Spells:12
3 Commune with the Gods
3 Hero's Downfall
3 Sultai Charm
1 Empty the Pits
2 Whip of Erebos
3 Forest
2 Island
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Opulent Palace
2 Polluted Delta
3 Swamp
3 Temple of Malady
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Yavimaya Coast
2 Drown in Sorrow
3 Master of the Feast
4 Murderous Cut
1 Rakshasa Vizier
3 Sultai Scavenger
2 Necropolis Fiend
I like this list. I think we need to focus on one mechanic- dredge or delve. You can't really mix them in equal parts without losing consistency. This list is pure dredge, with a very slight touch of power delve- plus a sideboard full of good delve to bring in for matches where you don't need tons of big threats.
4 Elvish Mystic
2 Hornet Queen
2 Necropolis Fiend
4 Satyr Wayfinder
3 Sultai Soothsayer
1 Herald of Torment
4 Nighthowler
2 Nyx Weaver
4 Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
2 Whip of Erebos
2 Hero's Downfall
1 Empty the Pits
3 Murderous Cut
3 Commune with the Gods
Lands (23)
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Llanowar Wastes
3 Opulent Palace
2 Polluted Delta
3 Temple of Malady
2 Yavimaya Coast
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Sideboard Options:
Creatures
Arbor Colossus
Hornet Queen
Mistcutter Hydra
Nemesis of Mortals
Nylea's Disciple
Rakshasa Deathdealer
Rakshasa Vizier
Reclamation Sage
Ruthless Ripper / Sedge Scorpion
Courser of Kruphix
Herald of Torment
Thassa, God of Sea
Planeswalker
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Liliana Vess
Instant
Bile Blight
Empty the Pits
Hero's Downfall
Murderous Cut
Naturalize
Pharika's Cure
Silence the Believers
Unravel the Aether
Sorcery
Despise
Drown in Sorrow
Stain the Mind
Thoughtseize
Modern
UWGB 4c Snow Control BGWU
4 Prognostic Sphinx
4 Satyr Wayfinder
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Nyx Weaver
4 Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
1 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Opulent Palace
3 Polluted Delta
4 Temple of Malady
4 Yavimaya Coast
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Dig Through Time
2 Empty the Pits
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Murderous Cut
4 Disdainful Stroke
4 Pharika's Cure
3 Drown in Sorrow
The SCG team all seem to be pretty heavy on Sidisi though. Makes me think we're on the right track, or they're all just as wrong as we are.
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Sidisi, Blood Tyrant
3 Nyx Weaver
3 Omenspeaker
2 Prognostic Sphinx
1 Hornet Queen
Spells
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hero's Downfall
2 Drown in Sorrow
2 Murderous Cut
1 Dig Through Time
3 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Whip of Erebos
Lands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Temple of Mystery
4 Temple of Malady
4 Llanowar Wastes
2 Opulent Palace
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Yavimaya Coast
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
As far as a sideboard goes, I have two options. I can either use a transformative sideboard to shift hard towards either control or dredge, or I can run a lot of matchup specific removal and threats. I'm testing out each option, but I like the idea of going all-in on a different plan after an opponent sides against me.
You might wonder why I don't include Sultai Charms or more delve spells. I don't exclude them because of their power level or because I found them clunky, but because they weren't essential to the plan. Sultai Charm is never dead, but in many matchups it can't hit what you want (ie Butcher, planeswalkers) and is harder to cast than Hero's Downfall. I would include more delve spells if I had room, but I don't want to cut anything to make room for them in the main. I've found that the classic Thoughtseize/Downfall combo is the best removal suite because it can target basically every threat in the format and isn't hard to hit mana-wise. I also have found that mainboard Drown in Sorrows is a must, and is more versatile than I thought against midrange (almost entirely because it clears Elspeth and Sorin tokens).
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Satyr Wayfinder
3 Courser of Kruphix
2 Necropolis Fiend
spells
4 Thoughtseize
3 Despise
2 Ulcerate
2 Murderous Cut
2 Sultai Charm
4 Sultai Ascendancy
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Drown in Sorrow
4 Commune with the Gods
2 Empty the Pits
4 Opulent Palace
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
3 Llanowar Wastes
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Polluted Delta
An active Sphinx + Sultai Ascendency potentially gives you 5 looks at the top of your deck to sculpt your draws. It's a pretty powerful effect, but Ascendency feels clunky and slow for the presumably aggro heavy meta of the first few weeks.
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
I don't like him in this deck. I also don't like him when there are reliable, efficient sweepers in the format. But we are not in one of those formats anymore.
He's difficult to kill, provides a reasonable clock for a control deck, and lets you look at 3 cards a turn. Once resolved with a couple cards in hand, most decks just can't remove him. He's small enough to survive -3 Elspeth, but big enough to stonewall most creatures, including Stormbreath Dragon and Sarkan. These qualities made him an allstar at the Block Pro Tour, and he's one of the big reasons why the BUG Control decks did so well there.
All of that being said, I don't know whether he's going to transition well to Standard, and he's definitely not something I'm terribly interested in for this deck.
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator