MTG Salvation

BGUSultai Delve/DredgeBGU

Introduction:
Sultai Delve uses the old delve mechanic to cast powerful threats for low costs and utilizes the graveyard as a resource. This deck has proven to be powerful in the past, and I believe is a strong choice right now vs the dragon control lists.



This is close to the list ran in the top 8 of the SCG Providence except with the deathmist raptor//den protector engine. I have tested it a good bit the past few days and believe it is a strong choice in the current metagame. The amount of recursion and card advantage the deck gets with the package lets it compete and fight through control's disruption.
the package also allows us to play more creatures, making sidisi, brood tyrant better along with corpseweft which if you havent played yet I strongly suggest trying. It is a more powerful mastery of the unseen in this deck.

This is the deck I am currently testing out


Hornet Queen is proving to be a house, but nothing like Sidisi, Brood Tyrant. When it was first spoiled I was thought it was going to be pretty sucky because you only got one zombie. I was wrong. This card is spectacular in this deck. Whipping it back from the graveyard and getting two triggers really makes the engine go. It feeds more ammo for the whip and prepares a large zombie apocalypse on them.
I upped the number of queens, because I just always wanted more of them in my hand or GY.
I have Sultai Ascendancy in their right now because I have heard good things, but have yet to play it in a game. I may bump it up to a 3 of just to test out if its worth playing on turn 3 or if I would rather be doing something that pushes my board state forward.
Sagu Mauler out of the board seems really good. Doesn't die to most removal, and tramples over almost everything. This may be a main deck card.
Necropolis Fiend hasn't impressed me yet but I've seen it be good and I am just waiting for the right time.
I think there may be too many enablers in the deck right now and not enough finishers but haven't played enough games to know for sure. It just feels like their are too many do nothing creatures after I have four lands on the field.
I also want to mention Taigam's Scheming. I know it doesn't put a card in your hand. But it can put 5 in the gy as well as set up your next few draws or dig for the Empty the Pits next turn. I didn't like it as a 4 of but I definitely think it should be a 2 or 3 of mix with Commune with the Gods. Being able to dig 5 cards deep, put a Hornet queen to be whipped back for defense and putting an empty the pits on top for your next turn just feels so good.

Is anyone else playing a deck like this? Want to contribute at all? I could use some help developing this.

Looks like a very fun deck my biggest concern would be that an Anger of the Gods wrecks most of your deck, save Necropolis Fiend, and since the mass removal is scarce, and because the jeskai decks have been tested a lot lately, I have a feeling that Anger may be a very relevant card. You noted good reasons for why you don't have Nemesis of Mortals in the deck, but I think he'll be an important piece to protect yourself from being blown out by Anger.

This deck isn't my area of expertise, but one card that might be worth considering is Necromancer's Stockpile, if there are enough playable zombies to make it worthwhile. (brb, checking spoilers). A quick review of black's spoilers from Khans reveals a very limited number of zombies, so that idea doesn't bode well.

Ya, did look into the stockpile and it just has no support. Maybe in the coming wedges we will get some good ones.

anger of the gods is definitely strong against us, maybe making thoughtseize/counterspells main deck a necessity. Maybe a few other bombs like sagu mauler in the main that won't die from it as well.

sydisi brood tyrant is unplayable. the mechanics she supposedly supports are not unplayable, but a 3/3 body for 4 mana that requires attacking for effect with no haste, no evasion, and no protection is not playable. at four mana you have way better enchantment and creature options.

you clearly have not played with her. She is normally 5 power for 4 mana, and is a powerful engine for delving and whipping back bombs. Plus you can whip her back after she dies and get two more trigger and two more zombies.

I used to think that too, but after trying her, I would never take her out of the deck. She is a must answer threat or she will take over the game. Besides she swings through a lot of the creatures that are going to be played.

I really like this idea, and will try to work towards something similar. I'll do some work and report back. Though I do have a few immediate thoughts.

While Hornet Queen is a very strong choice, have you considered any other strong Whip targets? The two that come to mind are Meandering Towershell and Gray Merchant of Asphodel. The whip returns the turtle for good, as far as I can tell, as long as you are able to attack with it. Gary seems a bit of an odd fit in a 3 color deck, but he's still quite strong. Even with just him and the whip, you get an 8 point life swing.

My first thought when I saw Sidisi was to use her zombies to power Chord of Calling. There are enough green creatures in the deck that I think the triple green cost would be manageable. Good Whip targets also make for good Chord targets, though this may be moving into "win more" territory.

I did order a playset of the towershell. I hadn't even thought of him though as a whip target but it does seem alright. Another card that came up when browsing through cards is Terra Stomper. 8/8 trample seems good. He is legal right?

I mean, even without the added benefit of the zombie portion of the ability, it gives you a way to dump expensive creatures that you plan to whip back that would otherwise just sit in your hand all game (because there's currently no way to dump them once they're in your hand), and it turns late game mana dorks into 2 mana cantrips. I think it's worth at least testing (maybe as a 1-2 of) for the benefits it provides.

The one thing I really worry about, is that cards like Bile Blight, Drown in Sorrow, and (as Abubu mentioned) Anger of the Gods utterly WRECK our creatures. As weird as it sounds, I'm almost tempted to consider 4 colors and splashing white (the deck's mana base is probably going to be slow enough, and have enough fixing, that it can afford to splash for 2~3 white symbols cross as many cards). Siege Rhino is a ridiculously good whip target, and it dodges all of the removal that the deck has trouble with. The strain on the mana base might be a bit much, though (then again... Windswept Heath is definitely able to be run in the deck, so...)...

Perhaps just Polukranos, World Eater instead, and not worry about the 4th color splash? Though he's definitely not NEARLY as good as a whip target, unless you have an absurd amount of mana...

EDIT: Or possibly just run a couple copies of Sagu Mauler in the main deck. It's definitely not the best whip target ever, but it's at least a solid choice. I suppose that would mostly be a meta decision.

Quote from WizardJohn »

sydisi brood tyrant is unplayable. the mechanics she supposedly supports are not unplayable, but a 3/3 body for 4 mana that requires attacking for effect with no haste, no evasion, and no protection is not playable. at four mana you have way better enchantment and creature options.

First, her ability also activates when she enters the battlefield. That means she usually brings along a zombie when she enters the battlefield, and in most cases a 3/3 and a 2/2 are better than a 5/5 (can't be removed by a single spell). Second, even when she misses on her mill ability she still fuels delve better than virtually every other card. Finally, Whip of Erebos loves her. She's actually stronger in the graveyard than on the battlefield, because with Whip she can enter and attack on the same turn. That means 6 cards milled, up to two zombies, 3 damage, and 3 life for 2BB. That is unbeatable value.

Her body is tiny, but her ability generally more than makes up for it. If she is on the battlefield she can easily dominate a board, and in the graveyard she turns into the best self-mill spell in Standard.

The question is how much room do we have for just good creatures vs mana/engine stuff.

Do we need x4 elvish mystic x4sylvan carytid and x4 satyr wayfinder or can we cut down a bit there and play some just strong creatures.

The hardest part in building this deck is figuring out the ratio of mana/engine vs the bombs. Once we figure out that ratio, getting the right cards in those spots will be much easier.

Quote from jacobpmesser »

But it's a mill 1. You get the 2/2 at instant speed. Mind Sculpt does the same. Eh... that's a big mill unless you plan on Delving a lot.

You can't hit yourself with Mind Sculpt, unfortunately.

So another thing we have to look into are the variety of Delve enablers that we're using. Here is a list of all that come to mind, with the number of cards they dump to the grave in parentheses. I sorted them on playability based on my opinions.

Every turn:

• Sidisi, Brood Tyrant (3)
• Sultai Ascendancy (0-2)
• Nyx Weaver (2)
• Grindclock (some)
• Jace, the Living Guildpact (1)
• Dakra Mystic (1)
• Phenax, God of Deception (many)

Upon playing:

• Sidisi, Brood Tyrant (3)
• Satyr Wayfinder (3-4)
• Commune with the Gods (4-5)
• Scout the Borders (4-5)
• Taigam's Scheming (0-5)
• Necromancer's Assistant (3)
• See the Unwritten (6-8)
• Sultai Soothsayer (3)
• Kruphix's Insight (3-6)
• Returned Centaur (4)
• Bitter Revelation (2)
• Thassa's Bounty (3)
• Rakshasa's Secret (2)

Of course some of these options are pretty bad, though it would be pretty silly to tap your zombies to make more zombies with Phenax and Sidisi out.

Any suggestions on numbers we'd want? I'm thinking 14-16 feeders would be appropriate to make a little more room for finishers. Maybe something like this?

Definitely need to find a non-sidisi threat. You don't have enough control nor cards that dig in a targetted manner. Chord of the Calling may help here, a bit. The problem is, all decks being brewed for the new standard are aiming to beat the omnipresent Goblin Rabblemaster, and Sidisi has a similar effect/board presence.

Maybe try a more aggressive build with her as a side engine?

Quote from chucklepunch »

Definitely need to find a non-sidisi threat. You don't have enough control nor cards that dig in a targetted manner. Chord of the Calling may help here, a bit. The problem is, all decks being brewed for the new standard are aiming to beat the omnipresent Goblin Rabblemaster, and Sidisi has a similar effect/board presence.

Maybe try a more aggressive build with her as a side engine?

I agree with you here and have updated my testing deck. hornet queen isn't a huge dmg dealer even though it can stall out the board. I'll post my updated list after a few test games. Basically I cut down on engine cards and increased threat density as well as more cards that can survive through anger of the gods. Been liking it so far

I definitely think there's a strong deck here. Delve seems like the mechanic of choice in this brew, starting with this a base something like this:

Nyx Weaver
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
Necropolis Fiend
Pharika, God of Affliction

Sultai Charm
Sultai Ascendancy
Murderous Cut
Empty the Pits
Taigam's Scheming

Avoiding cards like Commune with the Gods in favor of more precise diggers like Taigam's Scheming or something crazy like Treasure Cruise. I still think a few cards like Polukranos, World Eater should be around so we aren't too cute game 1, and so we don't roll over to Tormod's Crypt. Also not opposed to cutting lands back and dropping Voyaging Satyr in there. At that point testing wtih Nighthowler and Nemesis of Mortals may also make sense.

So yeah, much thinking and testing to do

I feel like Taigam's Scheming being a -1 makes it worse than commune or satyr. Maybe the eventual card selection makes it worth it, but that is something I would have to see in action.

Quote from DekuTheEvilClown »

Sidisi will most likely be one of the defining creatures of the standard format for the next year.

Tall claims, she does however interact very favorably with Bestow creatures and acts as fuel for many of the most powerful self mill mini interactions such as Nighthowler, Strength of the Fallen, Pharika and Delve in general.

Played Sultai at the prerelease and Delve is the bomb. I did have a bit of a tough time against Temur though.
The red card pumps were a real blow out. Made me think I needed more control.
Anyway really looking forward to what this community can come up with for a competitive Delve deck.

Quote from DekuTheEvilClown »

Sidisi will most likely be one of the defining creatures of the standard format for the next year.

I may be sticking my neck out here, but I'm going to second this comment. We've been testing all day with BUG Dredge (that's what we're calling the Sidisi deck at the moment), BWR Midrange, and RUG Monsters/Walkers. Of the 3, BUG easily has the most promise. Here's our current BUG list (and yes, the sideboard is terrible):



We started with 2x Necropolis Fiend in the main, 4x Elvish Mystic, more removal, and no Nighthowlers or Nemesis of Mortals. What we found was that if Sidisi, Brood Tyrant resolved and was able to attack at least once, you always won, but without her, there were a lot of hands full of enablers and no serious threats. We also hated that Satyr Wayfinder just sat there and did nothing. We considered cutting him for Taigam's Scheming, but that card is strictly card disadvantage.

We ended up moving back towards the B/G Dredge deck that Conley Woods was working on earlier this year. That's where the Nemesis of Mortals / Nighthowler package came from. Then we found that Necropolis Fiend and Murderous Cut were highly incompatible with those cards, at least in large numbers. There's just not enough constant milling to support all 4. That lead us to cutting Necropolis Fiend to the board, adding a 3rd Hornet Queen for a late game bomb, and cutting to 1 Murderous Cut.

We also dropped 2x Elvish Mystic early on. Getting 3 mana on Turn 2 is very unimportant, but having 4 mana on Turn 3 is significant. Sylvan Caryatid also plays great defense, so he was just much better in this deck. Plus, you typically want to play a tap land on turn 1 anyways which makes Elvish Mystic awkward.

Nemesis of Mortals will often feel like Tarmogoyf in this deck. He's just a big, dumb fatty on the cheap. It's very easy to monstrous him for 2 mana, drop a Whip of Erebos, and swing with a 10/10 lifelinker. Nighthowler has overperformed in every game. He gives Satyr Wayfinder something to do, and with how bad the removal is in this format, burning a card to kill the bestowed creature only to leave behind another big threat feels really bad for the opponent. I can see Silence the Believers and cards with similar effects taking off if this deck goes anywhere.

Both Nemsis and Nighthowler also helped shore up the weaknesses to Drown in Sorrow and Anger of the Gods. The sweepers still feel bad, but you're not totally dead to them.

So yea, the deck is awesome. You guys should definitely give it a try. And yes, the sideboard is highly untested and admittedly terrible. The Bile Blights and Negates are the only cards with a significant purpose. The rest are just pieces of the experiments of the day.

Pharika.
Pharika?
Yes, Pharika.

.............maybe Pharika?
I'm thinking Pharika as a 2-of.

Crypt Incursion? When does this rotate?