In the first few turns I like to try to nab a counterspell, jace, or verdict with a hand disruption spell. After that, I try to save them for right before I plan on casting an Obzedat or Elspeth. Don't overextend into a verdict, value your golgari charms highly, and downfall their jaces quickly. You'll be able to peck at them for 2-5 life/turn with cards like maggot, courser, and mutavault as long as you keep jace off the board which will put their life total under enough pressure that one of your closers should get there. This is a grindy MU but you have all the tools to grind them out (surprisingly).
MonoB Devotion:
-4 Maggot
+2 Blight
+2 Golgari Charm
-2 Decay (On the draw)
+2 Thoughtseize(On the draw)
This is a surprisingly simple MU. Prevent a turn 2 packrat (golgari charm, decay, blight all kill a turn 2 rat, thoughtseize takes it), save your downfalls for demons, and after a turn 2 packrat, prioritize killing/thoughtseizing underworld connections. The reason you bring in thoughtseize on the draw is because it can grab a packrat out of their hand on turn 1. The difference between decay and thoughtseize is relatively marginal, and it might be correct to just go one way or the other no matter what, but this is what I've been doing and it's been working so far. If they get a connections going it's lights out against you because they are all removal and resilient threats. W/O it you'll be able to easily outcard them and outclass most of what they do. Golgari Charm is strictly better than Abrupt Decay in this MU - it does everything you want decay to do and then some.
Special Note: I feel that the sideboarding plan is very simliar against B/W Midrange, but for slightly different reasons. I like keeping banishing lights in here even though they have access to white enchantment removal effects and banishing lights of their own because they have a few different threats that are worth exiling. My experience is admittedly limited against them though.
Very similiar to the MonoB Devotion MU, this time banishing lights comes out. Against MonoB I like to use banishing lights as demon killers 7-8 (downfalls and elspeths being the first 6), but they become a liability against B/G. In the B/R MU, rakdos's return becomes a real threat and I'd much rather have the full grip of thoughtseizes over the banishing lights against them. Golgari charm plays double duty in countering a mortars from B/R along with killing a turn 2 rat or a connections (or a primeval bounty in the B/G MU, I've seen that card become a popular SB option lately). Other than these small differences, the gameplan is the same as in the MonoB MU.
This is very similar to BBD's sideboard plan against burn. I tried quite a few different plans but ended up finding that this is a lot closer to being correct than what I was doing. Downfalls are slow and inefficient removal, doomwakes and elspeth suffers the same downside of being slow and low impact in the MU, and card draw isn't really needed much here. Land an early ram and/or courser (preferably both), slow their gameplan down by killing their dudes/mutavaults (banishing light is great at permanently answering a phoenix), and tear their hand apart. Thoughtseize seems counterintuitive here but most of the time it saves you life. Maggot can open you up to searing blood a little but generally he can help you buy the time you need to get there with courser/obzedat beatdowns. This MU is most certainly no walk in the park, and is probably the most difficult next to Jund Monsters, but it is very winnable.
This is one of the most difficult MUs (if not THE most difficult MU), but is still very winnable with practice and proper sideboarding. This MU is the sole reason dictate is in my SB over the third doomblade that BBD ran. Smart use of thoughtseize goes a long way here, doomblade is for dragon/poly, decay is mostly useless (hits courser/domri and that's about it), and maggot is worse than thoughtseize because of their plethora of 'value' removal in the form of overloaded mortars, domri -2, and poly. Some people like taking out connections against them but my experience is that this MU is all about value/card advantage after the dust settles. The problem is not only do they attack from so many different angles, they have so many different ways of generating gas to continue to pressure you. The plan is to remove their threats (of which there are many) and out card them. Protect your eidolons as much as possible by playing them with one or two other enchantments in the same turn while their tapped out because they have a very short life expectancy.
What you're doing here is lowering the average cmc of your removal and trading out maggot for ram. Ram serves as a great blocker against weird/mutavault/tidebinder while also providing a nice cushion of life. MonoU's gameplan of early mediocre beats followed by going wide with master of waves and not interacting via Thassa's activated ability is slowed down significantly by the early lifegain of ram and courser. A resolved doomwake is usually gg because you'll have slowed them down so much that they won't have the ability to spew more small dudes and hope to 'get there'. Banishing light is for Thassa, charm is decent against a master that you don't have an immediate answer for (of which there are plenty in this deck) and is also good at killing the domestication that they always bring in to steal your coursers (seems bad at first for them to do this, but domestication adds devotion and courser provides a surprising amount of value for them). The mid-combat 'kill domestication block a mutavault' comes up a decent amount of the time. Charm also has the bonus of killing a bident (which is another way they can get back into the game against you). Don't get blown out by an EOT overloaded rift and you'll be fine in this MU.
This MU is very high variance. Don't be afraid to mulligan and keep slow/weak 7 - ship it back! Any combination of 4+ caryatid/courser/ram/2 cmc removal spells in the first 3 turns of the game is *usually* enough to slow them down long enough to get to your more powerful endgame. If they haven't beaten you by turn 5, you're probably going to win.
Surprisingly enough, I actually like maggot in this MU. MonoB aggro doesn't have nearly as much redundancy as the monoR aggro variants so disrupting their curve it much easier. Golgari charm kills A LOT of relevant threats like spiteful returned, master of the feast, herald of torment, and even gnarled scarehide. Slow them down, land a doomwake, and win. It's relatively elementary.
End Notes:
This deck is fun and surprisingly competitive. These are my current SB plans against a lot of the more popular decks out there. Most of them could be (and probably will be) refined as I play the deck more. Hopefully this gives some of you a good place to start when considering how to SB against most of the meta. I'll probably add more and change this up as I think of things, let me know what you guys think!
PS - My record against some of the decks that I've recorded so far:
MonoU Dev 7-0
MonoB Dev 9-6
B/G Dev 2-3
B/R Dev 2-0
B/w Mid 1-1
Jund Mon 6-7
R/w Burn 4-9 (though, this is because of my inexperience and my trying out different sb plans)
Rev Decks 8-5
MonoR Aggro 5-7 (this number could've just as easily been swapped if not for a few bone-head mistakes on my part)
MonoB Aggro 4-2
MonoW Aggro 2-0
Midrange (Naya/Junk/BUG) 3-1
Overall I have a winning record (which is sweet). Most of these have been on MTGO (I've been grinding quite a bit over the past few weeks), but a few are from FNMs. Because of the relatively small sample size these results are not completely indicative of most MUs, but there are kind of close. A lot of other factors have gone into these results as well though.
I notice you're not running underworld coinsmith or grim guardian - is it not good enough, or do you just plan on using blossoms and doomwake as all the constellation triggers you need?
I think your control matchup heavily undervalues Sphinx's Revelation and its ability to steal games you have on lock. I do like the rest of your SB analysis though - I'll likely sleeve this up friday and see how it goes.
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Top 16 - 2012 Indiana State Championships Currently Playing: GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
I notice you're not running underworld coinsmith or grim guardian - is it not good enough, or do you just plan on using blossoms and doomwake as all the constellation triggers you need?
I think your control matchup heavily undervalues Sphinx's Revelation and its ability to steal games you have on lock. I do like the rest of your SB analysis though - I'll likely sleeve this up friday and see how it goes.
I used to run coinsmith, but I found my current configuration much more optimal. Grim guardian is completely unnecessary. Sphinx's rev is a very good card but if I'm casting a turn 2 maggot against control and see a hand of land land land rev verdict dissolve jace, rev is most certainly the last card I'd take. You tak their rev and they're able to play the control game until they remove your maggot and rev for a million. I'm usually looking at taking their dissolve or jace depending on my hand. If I'm thoughtseizing them, I might consider taking the rev, but I'd still be leaning towards disrupting their gameplan. You can't draw large amounts of cards all at once like a rev deck but you will draw more than a rev deck over the course of a game.
So yesterday four rounds. 2 rounds were worthless as to testing out ideas or cards, because one player was bad playing a bad deck, and the other against good player went to game 3 every game somebody was mana screwed.
So the other 2 rounds.
Vs brave naya. I win 2-1
Key points. Trading creatures early forcing him to use his pumps or lose creatures. Maggots and coinsmiths were very good in this match. Maggots disrupt their superior early game and coinsmith off sets life loss from lands as well as trading with nearly every creature or at least their pump spells.
Vs Bant midrange. Lose 1-2. This Bant deck was an anomaly. It played Dissolve, Brimaz, Boon satyr, advent of the wurm, fleecemain loin, and Courser main deck, all three games he had Caryatid on turn 2. I lose in game 3 due to a misplay when i had Blood Baron out when i knew he had boon satyr and another card in his hand, turns out the other card was advent. Again coinsmith provide lots of life gain to off set damage from lands and a slow start, again brain maggot allowed me to set up the next few turns on how I wanted them to play out.
things I would change. Doomwake feels very underwhelming and more a of a win more card and it was difficult to trigger him more than twice in a turn. Going forward I am going to cut the giants for boon satyr, and cut either ajani or angle of thune for advent of the wurm. Ajani performed well, doing exactly what I needed it to, when i needed it, to but I think adding instant speed creatures will make the deck faster and able to turn the corner quicker.
So yesterday four rounds. 2 rounds were worthless as to testing out ideas or cards, because one player was bad playing a bad deck, and the other against good player went to game 3 every game somebody was mana screwed.
So the other 2 rounds.
Vs brave naya. I win 2-1
Key points. Trading creatures early forcing him to use his pumps or lose creatures. Maggots and coinsmiths were very good in this match. Maggots disrupt their superior early game and coinsmith off sets life loss from lands as well as trading with nearly every creature or at least their pump spells.
Vs Bant midrange. Lose 1-2. This Bant deck was an anomaly. It played Dissolve, Brimaz, Boon satyr, advent of the wurm, fleecemain loin, and Courser main deck, all three games he had Caryatid on turn 2. I lose in game 3 due to a misplay when i had Blood Baron out when i knew he had boon satyr and another card in his hand, turns out the other card was advent. Again coinsmith provide lots of life gain to off set damage from lands and a slow start, again brain maggot allowed me to set up the next few turns on how I wanted them to play out.
things I would change. Doomwake feels very underwhelming and more a of a win more card and it was difficult to trigger him more than twice in a turn. Going forward I am going to cut the giants for boon satyr, and cut either ajani or angle of thune for advent of the wurm. Ajani performed well, doing exactly what I needed it to, when i needed it, to but I think adding instant speed creatures will make the deck faster and able to turn the corner quicker.
Comments welcome.
First off, a decklist would be nice. Second, I'd hardly consider "Brave Naya" and "Bant Midrange" top-tier decks.
I really don't think you have enough data to make the conclusion that doomwake needs to be cut - yes he isn't going to be killing swarms of 4/4's consistently but 6 toughness goes a long way in shutting down most attacking decks. While I do agree that threat density is an issue (and advent would help with that) I'm not sure diluting the deck this was is how to do it.
I'll have more test data tomorrow, though.
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thanks for the comments. If you looked back you would see my list, in a response to another post. It hardly matters if the decks were top tier or not, because this deck is not top tier, but by all means continue being antagonistic. Sense you have yet to post any results or observations based on the results your comments will be taken with a gain of salt.
Also cutting non-constellation cards for non constellation cards doesn't dilute anything.
So yesterday four rounds. 2 rounds were worthless as to testing out ideas or cards, because one player was bad playing a bad deck, and the other against good player went to game 3 every game somebody was mana screwed.
So the other 2 rounds.
Vs brave naya. I win 2-1
Key points. Trading creatures early forcing him to use his pumps or lose creatures. Maggots and coinsmiths were very good in this match. Maggots disrupt their superior early game and coinsmith off sets life loss from lands as well as trading with nearly every creature or at least their pump spells.
Vs Bant midrange. Lose 1-2. This Bant deck was an anomaly. It played Dissolve, Brimaz, Boon satyr, advent of the wurm, fleecemain loin, and Courser main deck, all three games he had Caryatid on turn 2. I lose in game 3 due to a misplay when i had Blood Baron out when i knew he had boon satyr and another card in his hand, turns out the other card was advent. Again coinsmith provide lots of life gain to off set damage from lands and a slow start, again brain maggot allowed me to set up the next few turns on how I wanted them to play out.
things I would change. Doomwake feels very underwhelming and more a of a win more card and it was difficult to trigger him more than twice in a turn. Going forward I am going to cut the giants for boon satyr, and cut either ajani or angle of thune for advent of the wurm. Ajani performed well, doing exactly what I needed it to, when i needed it, to but I think adding instant speed creatures will make the deck faster and able to turn the corner quicker.
Comments welcome.
I suppose it depends on what you want to do with Eidolon of Blossoms. Doomwake needs to be a 4-of if you want to kill anything bigger than an x/2. The list I'm running is more controlling and Doomwake fits that plan very nicely. If you'd rather go the beat down path with boon satyr and use eidolon to just keep refilling your hand w/ threats then maybe herald of torment would be better than advent. I personally think you lose a lot by playing archangels and Ajanis (which might account for your view on Doomwake), but I can see the merit in wanting to be aggressive.
Btw, a quick update about my list: my win % has increased to about 63% (up from 56%) over the past week or two. I've been running into a lot more aggressive decks and they can't handle caryatid into courser into Doomwake very well (or the post board rams w/ 12 removal spells). I've also been consistently beating every rev deck except esper. I think I'm about 40% against esper overall - main deck thoughtseize plus removal and aetherling make it a lot more difficult to steal game 1 and post board games are still favorable but not nearly as favorable as rev decks w/o black. I haven't had a chance to take it to any bigger tournaments (I'll be playing it at an IQ on the 4th of July weekend though), but I've been winning my 30+ person FNMs with it relatively consistently. I would definitely recommend it to anyone who wants something competitive and fun that isn't mono R aggro, mono b or u dev, Jund monsters, or a rev deck.
I'll edit this tomorrow when I'm actually awake, but I beat BW midrange, WW, and Mono Black. I lost to Naya Midrange, GW Hexproof, and RDW. I drew with Esper Control and Jund Midrange (No monsters). Caryatid was never in my opening hand and I found myself boarding it out a lot. (and boarding obzedat in)
Hexproof and RDW were just so damn fast they killed me before I was able to even establish a board. Naya I just got mana flooded out the ass. Esper control We decided not to start the third game with only 4 minutes on the clock, and against jund we were mirroring each other so closely that it'd have taken a good 30 more minutes just for that last game.
I'll post more information about the matches in particular when I regain consciousness. Until then, fell free to ask about my card choices.
Top 16 - 2012 Indiana State Championships Currently Playing: GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Athreos is pretty good whenever I draw it, even if it rarely gets to attack. If I have it and obzedat though, things can get very crazy very quickly. The two courser is an availability issue - No one around has any they're willing to part with for a reasonable price (the one offer I managed to get was $40 each - about $50 more than was reasonable) so I replaced it with advent. It was nice but I'm wondering if boon satyr would have been a better move.
One other concern was that I didn't have any good way to gain life to offset the damage from underworld connections - I'm considering replacing the advents and one caryatid with scavenging ooze.
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Caryatid should really only be boarded out against control, it's unfortunate you didn't see one in your opener. RDW is pretty much a bye along with mono U dev for me usually. You have to know when to mull though, it's usually not enough to keep a downfall/temple/mutavault/land/Doomwake/eidolon type hand against them (which is an otherwise reasonable keep). I prefer to have at least caryatid or ram and a courser with 2 lands in my opener, everything else (spot removal, lands, etc) is gravy. It's unfortunate that you don't have all 4 courser, that card is the absolute nutter butters. The value, life gain, and body are all just win. I think it'll be even better after rotation so, even though it's pricey, I'd recommend picking it up ASAP (even if you don't plan on playing this style of deck post rotation).
I'd try to fit a 1-of dictate of Erebos in your SB. Not only is it great against Jund monsters, but I've played around with siding it in vs mono black and it's an awesome play against their rat swarms and demons.
Athreos seems sweet, but I find it difficult to imagine that it fits this deck, you don't provide enough pressure for the 3 life to matter IMHO, but I haven't tested it so I wouldn't know.
I ended up going 4-2 last night in our 42-man FNM (it was a nice turnout). Missed top 8 on breakers though. I lost round 1 to Adrian Sullivan Control (close game 3, unfortunate draws), and lost round 5 to mono b dev (very very close game 3, I had it pretty much locked up, but he drew his last Gary on the turn before I would've been able to kill him). I beat 2 boss sligh decks, BW midrange, and RG monsters, all 2-0. I was very happy with how the deck performed.
Monsters and Mono-black are almost never played here - there's at most one guy running each of those decks so I'm not as concerned about dictate - though it would be useful against hexproof. The non-monsters jund deck I can out-value with eidolon of blossoms, though obzedat is what really gave him fits.
Going more in-depth about my losses: The RDW deck just curved out perfectly against me - turn one foundry street denizen, turn two triple BTE into armed of armed//dangerous and swung for 10, then 7 more on turn 3. In game two my nyx fleece ram held him off for a bit before it got double searing blood'd post combat. Hexproof was a little slower but had gift of orzhova to render my blockers moot. By the time doomwake giant even gets on line his dudes have 5-6 toughness or more and you just can't win that way. Dictate is worth considering, but at 5 mana I'm not sure it'll come down before I'm dead. I'm considering celestial flare though. And Naya was just ***** luck on my part. My turn 2 brain maggot catches him with 4 white spells and no white sources except caryatid. I nab that and he flounders a bit, but I flood out and he finds another white source to throw all his threats at me.
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Apologies for the double post, but it's been a week.
I went a combined 5-3 today, losing to RG monsters, mono black devotion, and esper control. I beat two RDW builds, a boros burn deck, a white weenie list and a UR sligh build.
Are people just giving up on this deck because of the back to nature reprint?
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I am giving up on the deck because the it has consistency issues, it has a lot of win more cards, lacks a clearly defined finisher, lacks game vs 2 of the most commonly played decks, oh and if the deck does manage to make tier 1, there is Back to Nature.
@Civilwargoat - this has been untrue for me. Elspeth is the finisher with Obzedat in the side. It is extremely consistent because of courser and the card draw. And it only really struggles against esper and monsters, both of which don't see much play. I'm not sure what list you're running or how you're sideboarding but I do not share the experiences you're having. I also can't think of what cards are 'win more' unless you're referring to the other less refined lists.
As far as back to nature is concerned, yes it sucks that it's getting reprinted, but it doesn't invalidate the deck. It just becomes important to not overextend into it unless you have a Golgari charm and will require some playing around w/ it. I'm also not sure what decks will want it in their board. Most green decks play courser and constellation decks aren't very better popular. I think back to nature will make hexproof decks unplayable, not so much this deck. We'll see though.
Monsters is a very popular tier 1 deck, and esper is a variation of another popular tier 1 deck. So no thank you to a deck that is soft vs 2 of the top 4 decks, and those 2 happen to be two of the most popular decks in standard.
Reclamation Sage is MUCH less of a threat compared to a 2-mana plague wind. Monsters isn't an EASY matchup by any means, but I put Drown in sorrow in my sideboard and it was ridiculous. I steamrolled the monsters player with it after the event, just because the deck wins by having bunches of tiny dudes ready to ruin your day. Control decks are usually in our favor, surprisingly enough - if you play properly. I was 2 damage short of taking the match against esper control, and if he hadn't the combo of ashiok and jace, memory adept, I'd have killed him easily. Game 3 I was just mana screwed, which happens. the loss to mono-black was me trying to banishing light a gray merchant and running right in to abrupt decay giving him the last 4 points of damage to kill me.
IF back to nature isn't played in all of the sideboards ever then we might have a shot. But around here, it's looking like everyone and his brother will have at least three BTN in their board if they so much as splash green.
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Top 16 - 2012 Indiana State Championships Currently Playing: GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Trying to figure out if I should sleeve up and try Junk Constellations (Elspeth variant not Primeval Bounty). It looks fun but seems like it would be weak to control (verdict), and GR/ Jund Monsters (our monsters are outclassed). Primeval Bounty actually sounds good against some decks like Mono Black (any non black I guess), but would be tough to fit in.
Other sad thought is this deck probably won't get any better since the enchantment theme ends with the Theros Block. Not probably not a lot of new enchantment enabling cards.
Theros will still be around after rotation in a couple months... RTR is the block that is rotating. Most of the constellation deck will still be around, you only really lose some SB cards like Obzedaddy and Golgari Charm (and mana bloom/abrupt decay from the main). I don't think back to nature is that big of a deal. Constellation decks aren't on anyone's radar really. The deck will have to evolve and you'll have to be aware that it is a card that can come out of the board against you but it's NOT the death of this deck.
@Civilwargoat - The Esper version of UWx control and Jund Monsters has waned considerably, and the MU is just slightly unfavorable against those anyway (not unwinnable by any stretch of the imagination). I'm not trying to convince you to play the deck but those are some pretty lame excuses to not play it. This deck is fun, good, and relatively well positioned in the meta. Ill take a 67% win% over 300+ matches any day of the week.
You have a above 65% win% against multiple decks in the field? Congratulations you just broke Standard. Not even Mono B, UW/Esper, Monsters or Burn boast such impressive figures!
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Theros will still be around after rotation in a couple months... RTR is the block that is rotating. Most of the constellation deck will still be around, you only really lose some SB cards like Obzedaddy and Golgari Charm (and mana bloom/abrupt decay from the main). I don't think back to nature is that big of a deal. Constellation decks aren't on anyone's radar really. The deck will have to evolve and you'll have to be aware that it is a card that can come out of the board against you but it's NOT the death of this deck.
@Civilwargoat - The Esper version of UWx control and Jund Monsters has waned considerably, and the MU is just slightly unfavorable against those anyway (not unwinnable by any stretch of the imagination). I'm not trying to convince you to play the deck but those are some pretty lame excuses to not play it. This deck is fun, good, and relatively well positioned in the meta. Ill take a 67% win% over 300+ matches any day of the week.
In what meta are you playing in? Monsters and Rev decks are still a significant part of the meta game, just because they don't win a SCG Open every week does not decrease their presence. This deck is the embodiment of durdling. It plays many low impact synergistic cards across the curve that when they line up correctly are powerful. When they don't line up the deck folds to itself, hence the lack of consistency, additionally the deck plays nothing to alleviate this problem. The deck also lacks a way to close out a game, like Stormbreath Dragon, Aetherling, Elsepth, or Revelations. Your list may play Elspeth but it serves a completely different function in a w/b/g build than in a control deck.
While I don't doubt your 67% win percentage, I question if all 300+ were against the top decks of the format, and as a result I am suspect of the validity of 67%. Do you realize how good that win percentage is? That means your winning nearly every match that goes to three games.
Is the deck fun, sure, fun at FMN when I could care less about winning, yup. Would I ever take this to a serious tournament with the expectation of placing, nope.
I disagree that the deck "folds to itself" if you're doing things halfway decently. Sometimes your draws brick, but most of the time it works fairly well. I was EXTREMELY doubtful that we would be able to keep pace with UWx control's card advantage, but the mana bloom/eidolon of blossoms combo enables exactly that, plus underworld connections to boot. The only issue is that leveraging that card advantage into a win takes an exceedingly long time against control, to where a single memory adept activation could kill you. I'm half-tempted to run a singleton elixer in the board. It doesn't "durdle" like a typical control deck, it just generates advantage bit by bit instead of all at once as most decks will anymore. It takes a level of patience.
In terms of lacking ways to close out the game, that is a problem, but I moved obzedat from the board to the main and he does wonders in wrapping up matches. Doomwake giant is also fairly formidable as a beater if you need it, and I have scavenging ooze out of the board that takes so many people by surprise when it becomes a 7/7 or bigger. Again, it slogs out wins instead of going "I resolve this card so I win".
I do doubt the 67% win rate against the Big 4, because that's simply absurd. But so long as people keep BtN out of their sideboards (or we can successfully countercall with mass regen) this deck might just be able to be a sleeper hit.
Top 16 - 2012 Indiana State Championships Currently Playing: GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
@Civilwargoat - Rev decks are a fine MU, esper (specifically) is the difficult one. UW, UWr, and the occasional UWg are even to favorable in my experience. Elspeth serves the same function in this deck that it does in other decks... and my win% is in matches. Per my recorded results, I've won approximately 67% of my matches. I play this deck mostly on MTGO in 8mans. Esper and Jund Monsters have been declining in popularity specifically on MTGO and specifically in 8-mans and specifically in my experience.
@The Other Guy - not quite sure I'd consider 67% to be 'breaking standard' but thanks for your completely sincere contribution to the topic.
If you want to try a constellation deck and are worried about it folding to itself, I personally find the Bant version far superior. I play both a Junk version and a Bant version on MTGO and the results of playing both are pretty one sided favoring Bant. Obviously playstyles vary, but Detention Sphere is a far more reliable removal spell to Doomwake Giant, even without the fat ass (also, at 5CMC the toughness is really a non-issue, especially when you are running Supreme Verdict's). Kiora, the Crashing Wave has much bigger game against the unfavorable control matchups, alongside running Aetherling and Jace, Memory Adept. Basically, I'm trading up 2 of junks bad matchups for a matchup that junk has an easier time with in RDW, but RDW is still quite doable.
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4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Brain Maggot
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Eidolon of Blossoms
4 Doomwake Giant
Enchantments: 7
3 Mana Bloom
2 Banishing Light
2 Underworld Connections
Instants: 6
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Hero's Downfall
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Lands: 25
4 Overgrown Tomb
3 Temple Garden
3 Godless Shrine
4 Temple of Malady
3 Temple of Plenty
1 Temple of Silence
2 mutavault
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Dictate of Erebos
2 Doom Blade
2 Bile Blight
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
2 Golgari Charm
3 Thoughtseize
3 Nyx-Fleece Ram
U/W/x Control:
-4 Caryatid
-3 Doomwake
+2 Golgari Charm
+2 Obzedat
+3 Thoughtseize
In the first few turns I like to try to nab a counterspell, jace, or verdict with a hand disruption spell. After that, I try to save them for right before I plan on casting an Obzedat or Elspeth. Don't overextend into a verdict, value your golgari charms highly, and downfall their jaces quickly. You'll be able to peck at them for 2-5 life/turn with cards like maggot, courser, and mutavault as long as you keep jace off the board which will put their life total under enough pressure that one of your closers should get there. This is a grindy MU but you have all the tools to grind them out (surprisingly).
MonoB Devotion:
-4 Maggot
+2 Blight
+2 Golgari Charm
-2 Decay (On the draw)
+2 Thoughtseize(On the draw)
This is a surprisingly simple MU. Prevent a turn 2 packrat (golgari charm, decay, blight all kill a turn 2 rat, thoughtseize takes it), save your downfalls for demons, and after a turn 2 packrat, prioritize killing/thoughtseizing underworld connections. The reason you bring in thoughtseize on the draw is because it can grab a packrat out of their hand on turn 1. The difference between decay and thoughtseize is relatively marginal, and it might be correct to just go one way or the other no matter what, but this is what I've been doing and it's been working so far. If they get a connections going it's lights out against you because they are all removal and resilient threats. W/O it you'll be able to easily outcard them and outclass most of what they do. Golgari Charm is strictly better than Abrupt Decay in this MU - it does everything you want decay to do and then some.
Special Note: I feel that the sideboarding plan is very simliar against B/W Midrange, but for slightly different reasons. I like keeping banishing lights in here even though they have access to white enchantment removal effects and banishing lights of their own because they have a few different threats that are worth exiling. My experience is admittedly limited against them though.
B/R B/G Devotion:
-4 Maggot
-2 Banishing Light
-1 Decay
+2 Golgari Charm
+2 Bile Blight
+3 Thoughtseize
Very similiar to the MonoB Devotion MU, this time banishing lights comes out. Against MonoB I like to use banishing lights as demon killers 7-8 (downfalls and elspeths being the first 6), but they become a liability against B/G. In the B/R MU, rakdos's return becomes a real threat and I'd much rather have the full grip of thoughtseizes over the banishing lights against them. Golgari charm plays double duty in countering a mortars from B/R along with killing a turn 2 rat or a connections (or a primeval bounty in the B/G MU, I've seen that card become a popular SB option lately). Other than these small differences, the gameplan is the same as in the MonoB MU.
R/W Burn:
-4 Downfall
-2 Elspeth
-2 Connections
-4 Doomwake
-2 Eidolon
+2 Doom Blade
+2 Blight
+2 Golgari Charm
+2 Obzedat
+3 Ram
+3 Thoughtseize
This is very similar to BBD's sideboard plan against burn. I tried quite a few different plans but ended up finding that this is a lot closer to being correct than what I was doing. Downfalls are slow and inefficient removal, doomwakes and elspeth suffers the same downside of being slow and low impact in the MU, and card draw isn't really needed much here. Land an early ram and/or courser (preferably both), slow their gameplan down by killing their dudes/mutavaults (banishing light is great at permanently answering a phoenix), and tear their hand apart. Thoughtseize seems counterintuitive here but most of the time it saves you life. Maggot can open you up to searing blood a little but generally he can help you buy the time you need to get there with courser/obzedat beatdowns. This MU is most certainly no walk in the park, and is probably the most difficult next to Jund Monsters, but it is very winnable.
Jund Monsters:
-2 Decay
-4 Maggot
+1 Dictate
+3 Thoughtseize
+2 Doomblade
This is one of the most difficult MUs (if not THE most difficult MU), but is still very winnable with practice and proper sideboarding. This MU is the sole reason dictate is in my SB over the third doomblade that BBD ran. Smart use of thoughtseize goes a long way here, doomblade is for dragon/poly, decay is mostly useless (hits courser/domri and that's about it), and maggot is worse than thoughtseize because of their plethora of 'value' removal in the form of overloaded mortars, domri -2, and poly. Some people like taking out connections against them but my experience is that this MU is all about value/card advantage after the dust settles. The problem is not only do they attack from so many different angles, they have so many different ways of generating gas to continue to pressure you. The plan is to remove their threats (of which there are many) and out card them. Protect your eidolons as much as possible by playing them with one or two other enchantments in the same turn while their tapped out because they have a very short life expectancy.
MonoU Devotion:
-3 Downfall
-4 Maggot
-2 Connections
+2 Golgari Charm
+2 Doom Blade
+2 Blight
+3 Ram
What you're doing here is lowering the average cmc of your removal and trading out maggot for ram. Ram serves as a great blocker against weird/mutavault/tidebinder while also providing a nice cushion of life. MonoU's gameplan of early mediocre beats followed by going wide with master of waves and not interacting via Thassa's activated ability is slowed down significantly by the early lifegain of ram and courser. A resolved doomwake is usually gg because you'll have slowed them down so much that they won't have the ability to spew more small dudes and hope to 'get there'. Banishing light is for Thassa, charm is decent against a master that you don't have an immediate answer for (of which there are plenty in this deck) and is also good at killing the domestication that they always bring in to steal your coursers (seems bad at first for them to do this, but domestication adds devotion and courser provides a surprising amount of value for them). The mid-combat 'kill domestication block a mutavault' comes up a decent amount of the time. Charm also has the bonus of killing a bident (which is another way they can get back into the game against you). Don't get blown out by an EOT overloaded rift and you'll be fine in this MU.
R/x Aggro:
-2 Connections
-2 Banishing Light
-4 Maggot
-1 Downfall
+2 Doom Blade
+2 Blight
+2 Golgari Charm
+3 Ram
This MU is very high variance. Don't be afraid to mulligan and keep slow/weak 7 - ship it back! Any combination of 4+ caryatid/courser/ram/2 cmc removal spells in the first 3 turns of the game is *usually* enough to slow them down long enough to get to your more powerful endgame. If they haven't beaten you by turn 5, you're probably going to win.
MonoB Aggro:
-2 Connections
-2 Banishing Light
-3 Downfall
+2 Golgari Charm
+2 Blight
+3 Ram
Surprisingly enough, I actually like maggot in this MU. MonoB aggro doesn't have nearly as much redundancy as the monoR aggro variants so disrupting their curve it much easier. Golgari charm kills A LOT of relevant threats like spiteful returned, master of the feast, herald of torment, and even gnarled scarehide. Slow them down, land a doomwake, and win. It's relatively elementary.
End Notes:
This deck is fun and surprisingly competitive. These are my current SB plans against a lot of the more popular decks out there. Most of them could be (and probably will be) refined as I play the deck more. Hopefully this gives some of you a good place to start when considering how to SB against most of the meta. I'll probably add more and change this up as I think of things, let me know what you guys think!
PS - My record against some of the decks that I've recorded so far:
MonoU Dev 7-0
MonoB Dev 9-6
B/G Dev 2-3
B/R Dev 2-0
B/w Mid 1-1
Jund Mon 6-7
R/w Burn 4-9 (though, this is because of my inexperience and my trying out different sb plans)
Rev Decks 8-5
MonoR Aggro 5-7 (this number could've just as easily been swapped if not for a few bone-head mistakes on my part)
MonoB Aggro 4-2
MonoW Aggro 2-0
Midrange (Naya/Junk/BUG) 3-1
Overall I have a winning record (which is sweet). Most of these have been on MTGO (I've been grinding quite a bit over the past few weeks), but a few are from FNMs. Because of the relatively small sample size these results are not completely indicative of most MUs, but there are kind of close. A lot of other factors have gone into these results as well though.
I think your control matchup heavily undervalues Sphinx's Revelation and its ability to steal games you have on lock. I do like the rest of your SB analysis though - I'll likely sleeve this up friday and see how it goes.
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
I used to run coinsmith, but I found my current configuration much more optimal. Grim guardian is completely unnecessary. Sphinx's rev is a very good card but if I'm casting a turn 2 maggot against control and see a hand of land land land rev verdict dissolve jace, rev is most certainly the last card I'd take. You tak their rev and they're able to play the control game until they remove your maggot and rev for a million. I'm usually looking at taking their dissolve or jace depending on my hand. If I'm thoughtseizing them, I might consider taking the rev, but I'd still be leaning towards disrupting their gameplan. You can't draw large amounts of cards all at once like a rev deck but you will draw more than a rev deck over the course of a game.
So the other 2 rounds.
Vs brave naya. I win 2-1
Key points. Trading creatures early forcing him to use his pumps or lose creatures. Maggots and coinsmiths were very good in this match. Maggots disrupt their superior early game and coinsmith off sets life loss from lands as well as trading with nearly every creature or at least their pump spells.
Vs Bant midrange. Lose 1-2. This Bant deck was an anomaly. It played Dissolve, Brimaz, Boon satyr, advent of the wurm, fleecemain loin, and Courser main deck, all three games he had Caryatid on turn 2. I lose in game 3 due to a misplay when i had Blood Baron out when i knew he had boon satyr and another card in his hand, turns out the other card was advent. Again coinsmith provide lots of life gain to off set damage from lands and a slow start, again brain maggot allowed me to set up the next few turns on how I wanted them to play out.
things I would change. Doomwake feels very underwhelming and more a of a win more card and it was difficult to trigger him more than twice in a turn. Going forward I am going to cut the giants for boon satyr, and cut either ajani or angle of thune for advent of the wurm. Ajani performed well, doing exactly what I needed it to, when i needed it, to but I think adding instant speed creatures will make the deck faster and able to turn the corner quicker.
Comments welcome.
First off, a decklist would be nice. Second, I'd hardly consider "Brave Naya" and "Bant Midrange" top-tier decks.
I really don't think you have enough data to make the conclusion that doomwake needs to be cut - yes he isn't going to be killing swarms of 4/4's consistently but 6 toughness goes a long way in shutting down most attacking decks. While I do agree that threat density is an issue (and advent would help with that) I'm not sure diluting the deck this was is how to do it.
I'll have more test data tomorrow, though.
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
Also cutting non-constellation cards for non constellation cards doesn't dilute anything.
I suppose it depends on what you want to do with Eidolon of Blossoms. Doomwake needs to be a 4-of if you want to kill anything bigger than an x/2. The list I'm running is more controlling and Doomwake fits that plan very nicely. If you'd rather go the beat down path with boon satyr and use eidolon to just keep refilling your hand w/ threats then maybe herald of torment would be better than advent. I personally think you lose a lot by playing archangels and Ajanis (which might account for your view on Doomwake), but I can see the merit in wanting to be aggressive.
Btw, a quick update about my list: my win % has increased to about 63% (up from 56%) over the past week or two. I've been running into a lot more aggressive decks and they can't handle caryatid into courser into Doomwake very well (or the post board rams w/ 12 removal spells). I've also been consistently beating every rev deck except esper. I think I'm about 40% against esper overall - main deck thoughtseize plus removal and aetherling make it a lot more difficult to steal game 1 and post board games are still favorable but not nearly as favorable as rev decks w/o black. I haven't had a chance to take it to any bigger tournaments (I'll be playing it at an IQ on the 4th of July weekend though), but I've been winning my 30+ person FNMs with it relatively consistently. I would definitely recommend it to anyone who wants something competitive and fun that isn't mono R aggro, mono b or u dev, Jund monsters, or a rev deck.
http://deck.tk/2xVo5U9u
4 Overgrown Tomb
3 Godless Shrine
3 Temple Garden
2 Temple of Plenty
3 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Malady
3 Forest
2 Swamp
Creatures (19)
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Brain Maggot
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Athreos, God of Passage
4 Eidolon of Blossoms
4 Doomwake Giant
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Hero's Downfall
3 Underworld Connections
2 Mana Bloom
2 Banishing Light
2 Advent of the Wurm
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
3 Golgari Charm
3 Thoughtseize
3 Nyx Fleece Ram
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
2 Devour Flesh
2 Doom Blade
I'll edit this tomorrow when I'm actually awake, but I beat BW midrange, WW, and Mono Black. I lost to Naya Midrange, GW Hexproof, and RDW. I drew with Esper Control and Jund Midrange (No monsters). Caryatid was never in my opening hand and I found myself boarding it out a lot. (and boarding obzedat in)
Hexproof and RDW were just so damn fast they killed me before I was able to even establish a board. Naya I just got mana flooded out the ass. Esper control We decided not to start the third game with only 4 minutes on the clock, and against jund we were mirroring each other so closely that it'd have taken a good 30 more minutes just for that last game.
I'll post more information about the matches in particular when I regain consciousness. Until then, fell free to ask about my card choices.
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
One other concern was that I didn't have any good way to gain life to offset the damage from underworld connections - I'm considering replacing the advents and one caryatid with scavenging ooze.
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
I'd try to fit a 1-of dictate of Erebos in your SB. Not only is it great against Jund monsters, but I've played around with siding it in vs mono black and it's an awesome play against their rat swarms and demons.
Athreos seems sweet, but I find it difficult to imagine that it fits this deck, you don't provide enough pressure for the 3 life to matter IMHO, but I haven't tested it so I wouldn't know.
I ended up going 4-2 last night in our 42-man FNM (it was a nice turnout). Missed top 8 on breakers though. I lost round 1 to Adrian Sullivan Control (close game 3, unfortunate draws), and lost round 5 to mono b dev (very very close game 3, I had it pretty much locked up, but he drew his last Gary on the turn before I would've been able to kill him). I beat 2 boss sligh decks, BW midrange, and RG monsters, all 2-0. I was very happy with how the deck performed.
Going more in-depth about my losses: The RDW deck just curved out perfectly against me - turn one foundry street denizen, turn two triple BTE into armed of armed//dangerous and swung for 10, then 7 more on turn 3. In game two my nyx fleece ram held him off for a bit before it got double searing blood'd post combat. Hexproof was a little slower but had gift of orzhova to render my blockers moot. By the time doomwake giant even gets on line his dudes have 5-6 toughness or more and you just can't win that way. Dictate is worth considering, but at 5 mana I'm not sure it'll come down before I'm dead. I'm considering celestial flare though. And Naya was just ***** luck on my part. My turn 2 brain maggot catches him with 4 white spells and no white sources except caryatid. I nab that and he flounders a bit, but I flood out and he finds another white source to throw all his threats at me.
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
I went a combined 5-3 today, losing to RG monsters, mono black devotion, and esper control. I beat two RDW builds, a boros burn deck, a white weenie list and a UR sligh build.
Are people just giving up on this deck because of the back to nature reprint?
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
As far as back to nature is concerned, yes it sucks that it's getting reprinted, but it doesn't invalidate the deck. It just becomes important to not overextend into it unless you have a Golgari charm and will require some playing around w/ it. I'm also not sure what decks will want it in their board. Most green decks play courser and constellation decks aren't very better popular. I think back to nature will make hexproof decks unplayable, not so much this deck. We'll see though.
Also this card was printed Reclamation Sage
IF back to nature isn't played in all of the sideboards ever then we might have a shot. But around here, it's looking like everyone and his brother will have at least three BTN in their board if they so much as splash green.
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
Other sad thought is this deck probably won't get any better since the enchantment theme ends with the Theros Block. Not probably not a lot of new enchantment enabling cards.
@Civilwargoat - The Esper version of UWx control and Jund Monsters has waned considerably, and the MU is just slightly unfavorable against those anyway (not unwinnable by any stretch of the imagination). I'm not trying to convince you to play the deck but those are some pretty lame excuses to not play it. This deck is fun, good, and relatively well positioned in the meta. Ill take a 67% win% over 300+ matches any day of the week.
In what meta are you playing in? Monsters and Rev decks are still a significant part of the meta game, just because they don't win a SCG Open every week does not decrease their presence. This deck is the embodiment of durdling. It plays many low impact synergistic cards across the curve that when they line up correctly are powerful. When they don't line up the deck folds to itself, hence the lack of consistency, additionally the deck plays nothing to alleviate this problem. The deck also lacks a way to close out a game, like Stormbreath Dragon, Aetherling, Elsepth, or Revelations. Your list may play Elspeth but it serves a completely different function in a w/b/g build than in a control deck.
While I don't doubt your 67% win percentage, I question if all 300+ were against the top decks of the format, and as a result I am suspect of the validity of 67%. Do you realize how good that win percentage is? That means your winning nearly every match that goes to three games.
Is the deck fun, sure, fun at FMN when I could care less about winning, yup. Would I ever take this to a serious tournament with the expectation of placing, nope.
In terms of lacking ways to close out the game, that is a problem, but I moved obzedat from the board to the main and he does wonders in wrapping up matches. Doomwake giant is also fairly formidable as a beater if you need it, and I have scavenging ooze out of the board that takes so many people by surprise when it becomes a 7/7 or bigger. Again, it slogs out wins instead of going "I resolve this card so I win".
I do doubt the 67% win rate against the Big 4, because that's simply absurd. But so long as people keep BtN out of their sideboards (or we can successfully countercall with mass regen) this deck might just be able to be a sleeper hit.
For those interested, here's my current list:
4 Overgrown Tomb
3 Temple Garden
3 Godless Shrine
2 Temple of Silence
1 Temple of Plenty
2 Temple of Malady
3 Llanowar Wastes
4 Swamp
2 Forest
Creatures (20)
4 Brain Maggot
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Courser of Kruphix
4 Eidolon of Blossoms
3 Doomwake Giant
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
1 Karametra, God of Harvests
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Hero's Downfall
3 Banishing Light
2 Underworld Connections
2 Mana Bloom
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
3 Thoughtsieze
3 Golgari Charm
2 Nyx-Fleece Ram
2 Drown in Sorrow
2 Devour Flesh
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Dictate of Erebos
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
@The Other Guy - not quite sure I'd consider 67% to be 'breaking standard' but thanks for your completely sincere contribution to the topic.
Standard:
UR Control