MTG Salvation

I found it interesting that during the innistrad-RTR block dega decks were running between 13-18 creatures main with no question, and now I see the decks are now devolved to running 8-10 creatures and 15 removal spells. A lot of the decks either look like bad esper or bad b/w midrange builds. Although a lot of the flaws in the color combination comes from red being a weak support color. I feel if you are going to run a controlling style you'd be better off going b/w. However get aggressive and options open up. I think thanks to our luxury of spot removal, we can run a 17+ creature midrange deck easily since we only need to use removal to allow our threats through. Thoughtseize sets up our threats and clears removal to allow creatures to resolve. And we have a lot of lifegain to work with so shocks shouldn't be too much of an issue. I think a creature based dega utlitizing Atheros and Obzedat is solid. A few spot removal spells, warleader's helix and thoughtseize would be the foundation. I'd even try Iroas to allow Obzedat to attack through blockers. These are a few suggestions, but we are running some pretty aggressive colors but playing like control decks with slow mana, little card advantage and fewer threats, which is why the deck doesn't scare the top tier decks.

Quote from BlackRaine »

I found it interesting that during the innistrad-RTR block dega decks were running between 13-18 creatures main with no question, and now I see the decks are now devolved to running 8-10 creatures and 15 removal spells. A lot of the decks either look like bad esper or bad b/w midrange builds. Although a lot of the flaws in the color combination comes from red being a weak support color. I feel if you are going to run a controlling style you'd be better off going b/w. However get aggressive and options open up. I think thanks to our luxury of spot removal, we can run a 17+ creature midrange deck easily since we only need to use removal to allow our threats through. Thoughtseize sets up our threats and clears removal to allow creatures to resolve. And we have a lot of lifegain to work with so shocks shouldn't be too much of an issue. I think a creature based dega utlitizing Atheros and Obzedat is solid. A few spot removal spells, warleader's helix and thoughtseize would be the foundation. I'd even try Iroas to allow Obzedat to attack through blockers. These are a few suggestions, but we are running some pretty aggressive colors but playing like control decks with slow mana, little card advantage and fewer threats, which is why the deck doesn't scare the top tier decks.

The points you bring up are valid, and I have noticed myself that the deck does seem a bit more threat-light. So I decided to do a bit of digging, and came across the last decklist I posted before rotation:



If I were going to go and make a deck with the same ideas with today's cardpool, it'd look something like this:


It would be very interesting to see how that list would fare - but I'm not entirely convinced it'd be what we want. You do make a good point, we do need to make our deck more aggressive and proactive, instead of just being wholly reactive to threats.

I have previously posted my deck, and I have made some changes as you can see below. I have found very fond matchups against mono-black, mono-blue, UW-control, and Esper control. These matchups are quite easy as maindeck answers are typically blowouts.


Each creature can win the game very quickly with the exception of Eidolon of the Great Revel. This card however, closes the gap on matches because it causes damage over a period of time. I find that my spells are higher curved, so this card particularly punishes the opponent who plays small green critters or red burn spells, and punishes most forms of removal. For two mana, most opponents quickly realize that this pesky 2/2 must be answered, but usually not until they have taken 6 damage. For two mana, this card really pulls its weight, and usually gets the opponent into killing range.


I have become really fond of having Gild in the deck. For one, it exiles creatures, which has its value against enabled God's and against creatures that are out of damage killing range. What's especially valuable is having the mana to land the Blood Baron of Vizkopa on the 5th turn, or play 4th turn Gild + Thoughtsieze combo. The deck runs 25 lands, but sometimes lands come into play tapped, or they just don't come, and the 5th mana makes the difference.

As you can see, there are 1 Deicide for the golden God answer, and one Renounce the Guilds for multi-colored planeswalker/god removal. I originally enjoyed 2 Renounce the Guilds but I realized they were dead in mono-colored matchups, where-by Deicide still holds up for removing Underworld Connections against mono-black or Courser of Kruphix in green-decks. I have 1 each of these two cards in the SB in order to remove whichever seems to be dead and replace that which is needed.

At the moment, the deck probably doesn't need Aurelia, the Warleader, but she has stolen games where I would have lost. It's a one-outer that can still dish 6 damage on her own.

With the advent of Mana Confluence, this deck can really get away with more Mutavaults. Mandlands help deal damage between turns where your picking off creatures. In aggro matchups, your Mutavaults will attack following an Anger of the Gods board wipe. In control matchups, they shine along with Haunted Plate Mail, because these creatures are sorcery-resistant

Anyways, I am constantly adjusting the deck, although at the moment, I only adjust the sideboard. The most infrequently used SB card is Slaughter Games, and I am almost on my way out with it. But there are other things to consider depending on the meta. SB has always been my weak point. Oh well, enjoy

If you look at the last top 16 list dega midrange had (star city has it was around Nov-Dec) you'll notice that the list that Charm Master posted and the list that actually won has more similarities than you might think. And the meta was the same then as it was now although during that time BW midrange was the big thing at the time. But his threat density was a full five mainboard creatures higher than current decklists but yet ran more disruption and removal options than we do now...We don't have to sacrifice speed for the ability to disupt and remove threats, we just have to attack to the colors strengths and force them to answer our strategy instead of trying to control theirs (which we can't do very well) I think the guys name was Jackson something I'll see if I can find a link for you guys...http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=62355 Here's a 5th place list from a ways ago...http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=60393 This is a list that finished 6th in states http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=67147

All of these lists hsve approached both creature and non creature ways to increase the number of threats in the deck.

That's some good research there, BlackRaine. And it shows us (or me at least) two important things to keep in mind when working on this deck. We have a top16 and two T8's to base our build on, so let's focus on what we know has worked and what their similarities are:

1) All three decks had 25-26 lands, 10-12 creatures (including 2 obzedat), no mutavault, 2 elspeth, and some number of rakdos keyrune. I personally thing 25 lands + 2 keyrune is the highest I'd want to go. Add in 2 elspeth and 12 creatures and that leaves us with 19-20 spell slots to play with.
2) All three decks play at least 2 hero's downfall, 2 dreadbore, 2 anger of the gods, 2 thoughtseize, 1 mizzium mortars, 1 rakdos' return, 1 whip of erebos, and at least 3 other spot removal spells. That leaves 6 flex spots to suit your meta.



This is the framework that the SCG results have shown will work. It's up to us to figure out how to fill in that framework.

I'm now running 3 Banishing Light and am very happy with its ability to hit things that my other removal spells previously could not.

Quote from boomershadow »

I'm now running 3 Banishing Light and am very happy with its ability to hit things that my other removal spells previously could not.

I agree - banishing light is such a useful card to have (or have back, it's comparable enough to oblivion ring for our purposes) and that it can hit non-creatures makes it especially flexible, more so than chained to the rocks really was. I'm using it in my 3 other removal spells, and my 6 flex spell slots are 3 UWC, a 3rd thoughtseize, a 3rd downfall and a 2nd mortars.

I am having trouble against Jund Monsters. Lots of trouble.

Hey everyone.

Lately I've been playing a B/W enchantment deck and I've been toying around with the idea of a red splash. Cards that interest me the most are Rakdos's Return, Slaughtergames, Mogis, God of Slaughter, Eidolon of the Great Revel, Mizzium Mortars, and Warleader's Helix. It's a fun, controllish-type deck that I think could really benefit from the red splash. Only problem is, I'm not sure exactly how to incorporate red into this deck. If you guys have any ideas, I'd like to hear them.

Decklists

Death and Taxes by Complex PantsMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Land 4 Temple of Silence 4 Godless Shrine 1 Orzhov Guildgate 2 Mana Confluence 7 Swamp 6 Plains Control 4 Brain Maggot 4 Thoughtseize 3 Hero's Downfall 3 Banishing Light	Death 2 Archangel of Thune Taxes 2 Athreos, God of Passage 3 Fate Unraveler 4 Grim Guardian 3 Underworld Coinsmith 2 Obzedat, Ghost Council Draw 3 Underworld Connections Life-gain, anti-aggro, trigger 3 Nyx-Fleece Ram	Sideboard 3 Deicide 1 Hero's Downfall 1 Underworld Coinsmith 3 Oppressive Rays 1 Erebos, God of the Dead 2 Aegis of the Gods 1 Banishing Light 2 Lifebane Zombie 1 Crypt Incursion

Sorry I have been away at my new job for a while but I have been keeping up with the new set and the cards and all so hopefully I'll be prepared and ready for the new sets. As for your idea, it is kinda difficult to splash dega simply due to the amount of material available to red based strategies. For your deck the only good enchantment cards available to you are Forgeborn Oreads and the Red gods. Red in general is kind of a hard splash because you are literally adding aggression to your deck. The removal dega provides is not designed to control, but rather to clear threats for creatures, demonstrated by the large amount of sorcery speed removal available. Your deck is considered midrange-control so really you'd be better off two color or going Esper or Junk. If red is your direction you will be adding direct damage based strategy to constellation which is cool for FNM but competitively it would be too slow and clunky (especially with the mana base) to support a slow grindy strategy like this. I like constellation decks in general, I just went junk with mine for the better mana and triggers.

Now as far as the new set goes, I like that they went back to Liliana Vess ( gives us a control replacement for Slaughter Games), I am excited for the Ajani since we are going to lose our key stabilization pieces (our lifelinkers Baron, Obzedat, and Helix) since they reprinted painlands we can expect to pay life for good mana, and so far we don't have too many options in that department. The red two drop mana dork is by far the best thing that could have happened and I would love to test the card out. Now not only do we have a great 2 drop to go with pack rats, but it helps make the deck more consistent mana wise. I can't tell you how many times I lose games hung on 4 mana with bombs in hand for turn 5 because my mana won't allow me to cast on curve. Having a red "sylvan caryatid" is definitely strong especially if unanswered we could cast Dragons and Barons on turn 3. Other than that everything looks cool for limited but really fringe depending on future sets. So far I have my core of Pack Rats,Desecration Demon, Stormbreath Dragon, and Blood Baron and they have done the job perfectly giving me a balance of aggression and control depending on the draw. I would probably start with 4 Generator Servants and see if the Desecration Demons are even needed. The biggest draw to the servant is that he isn't restricted on how to use the mana, so if you can use him if necessary if you want to power X spells like Rakdos' Return or to have open mana for kill spells. I'm probably the most impressed on how well it works with Atheros since it is a sacrifice effect meaning you can effectively deal three every time you cast your dragon or baron. Also you could cast turn 4 Soul of Theros or Shandlar or even Elspeth and Aurelia so it acts as kind of a gear shift of sorts. Plus it is a 2/1 body as well so it can be aggressive if need be. Keep your eyes on this guy!

Couple of random thoughts on a few of the above posts:

-Wild Guess is garbage. Underworld Connections is my preferred card draw, as it has the potential to be permanent, but Sign in Blood and even Read the Bones are probably better than Wild Guess.

-Don't run Pack Rat unless you're also running Underworld Connections.

-Decklists like the above Constellation one and aggro lists in previous pages belong in separate threads, this is the midrange thread after all.

Here's my latest M15-legal list (swapped 2 Battlefield Forge in for 1 Mountain, 1 Plains; will probably go back if Burning Earth decides to make one last gasp before rotation):



Looking for some pointers on the Monsters matchup, haven't run into it much at my meta so I don't have a ton of experience there.

Monsters is a tough matchup for most midrange decks, just because they get their huge impact spells on board so quickly. I've found that Anger of the Gods and Drown In Sorrow to sweep away their mana accelerators does a lot of good in keeping them from completely overrunning you.

Personally since junk enchantments is likely to fall off the scale of viable decks (**** you back to nature) I'm considering going back to something like this, but gearing it more towards the litany of good planeswalkers we have access to. Here's my idea:



This is a very rough draft -- any thoughts?

Hi I have been running around trying to find a deck that fits me. I used Junk Mid range for FNM last night I went 2-2 and got 9th place. I am now interested in moving into the field of Black/White/Red. I have been reading a lot of posts, and I wanted to thank Charm Master for posting a shell of a deck for people to work off of So here is the list.



So there is the full deck that I put together using Charm's shell listed above let me know what you think.

Edit notes: I adjusted the spells and creature consistancy I removed the Brimaz and placed more dragons and Blood barons and reduced the obzedat to 1. I placed 1 merciless eviction in the sideboard, and removed wear//tear since I have deicide as well. I put the 4th thoughtseize, 2 underworld connection in the mainboard.

You need a threat Charm Master! I would say in this shell Gideon would be your best bet. Planeswalker and if you activate Gideon as a creature, I think you get the loyality and the 1-1 counter too...I think. And if ultimates are your thing, I'd also try a creature for liliana to bring back. Otherwise it is pretty cool.

As for you nemesis, the big thing is to make sure your threats are not only diverse but consistant. I would either cut one of the threats for more copies of other threats. I'd also look to increase the spot removal a bit too. Having sweeps are great, but a lot of the sweeps are 6 mana sweeps. Anger is great if aggro is big, but I wouldn't go for eviction unless control or jund is big in the meta.

Thank you for your feedback!

Quote from BlackRaine »

You need a threat Charm Master! I would say in this shell Gideon would be your best bet. Planeswalker and if you activate Gideon as a creature, I think you get the loyality and the 1-1 counter too...I think. And if ultimates are your thing, I'd also try a creature for liliana to bring back. Otherwise it is pretty cool.

Right, I probably should have a threat of some kind. For some reason I think stormbreath dragon or underworld cerberus are my best choices in that regard, then again with khans being a wedge block I'm sure this deck will get some goodies it can use.

So with Caves of Koilos and Battlefield Forge this deck has a chance of having a decent mana base. Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth also helps with our black costs as well. I also love this color combination as well. So I thought I'd make a midrange deck around it.



Sideboard
2 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Rakdos's Return
1 Whip of Erebos
3 Anger of the Gods
2 Dark Betrayal
2 Deicide
2 Lifebane Zombie

I know this deck is really rough currently but I am planning on fine tuning it. My store is mainly Midrange, G/x Devotion Chord of Calling, and some Control.

Hi guys. Looking at getting into this deck. Currently moving from UWR Aggro/Midrange.

I might have missed it, but has anyone had any thoughts on Goblin Rabblemaster in here? Obviously in a more aggro based midrange deck.

The list I'm currently thinking of has a rough base of 3 Brimaz, 3-4 Rabble, 4 Stormbreath, etc. Coupled with a singleton Purphoros.

EDIT: Just thought I'd put in my thought process. He is comparable to Brimaz in how quickly he can run away with the game.
I was on the receiving end of him last week, when backed by the removal package of Downfall, Strike, Stoke and Banishing Light. I lost on T5/6 both games, due to no being able to keep a creature on board, even after curving out really well. He is the ''one' creature boardwipe target'.

Long story short he is a massive threat in the 3 drop spot, like Brimaz is. Couple those two in with the 'standard' Dega threat lineup and removal package, you have a VERY threatening deck - high threat count (like was being discussed earlier this thread) with the great removal package Dega offers.

Dega might be a thing again with the next set. Anyone else anticipating this? Who is going to write the primer? I'd volunteer to write a skeleton/intro description type thing. Not sure how much time I'll have later on this semester..

Im currently play testing Mardu Midrange deck for post rotation. I'll also be attending an IQ the weekend of release. I wouldn't mind writing a primer but I'm not sure if I need permission or any other red tape.